View Full Forums : PvP talent build


Jareck
05-15-2005, 12:00 AM
I'm lvl 45 now and thinking more and more about my end game build talent-wise. What are the most popular pvp builds that are out there now and what, in your opinion, are their merits and flaws?

Kabaoum
05-16-2005, 10:40 PM
the most common build I see is 10/11/31 or sometimes 5/16/31 but it most druids want nature's grasp/feral charge/innervate just because it is really the most well rounded build. it works great in instances and it is doable in pvp. I think a solid feral build is a bit more potent in pvp, though I'm dying to try out a good balance build to see how it plays :D And by feral build I don't just mean the talents, I mean going full out melee gear with the talent points. Unlike rogues, agi only affects our crit chance, armor rating, and defensive skills. It does not give us an atk power boost, and I think that is more important, so I would suggest sta/str on all your gear with a little bit to agi and/or int just for a little extra edge. the Major con with a feral build is your not going to be the most efficient healer without a seperate set of gear for playing healer, and the lack of abilities like nature's swiftness and innervate give the other druids a large advantage as far as heals go. Playing a restoration druid in pvp becomes a matter of outlasting your opponents, where a feral druid in pvp is more about outdamaging and outrunning your opponents(most ppl try to run from me halfway through the fight, opening with an 800 point crit at lvl 46 can be a bit intimidating) That's what I love about the druid class, the versitility gives you so many options :D

Majitsu
05-16-2005, 10:47 PM
almost too many options. I might think about respeccing to do all feral and reequiping to do all sta/str...but are you sure this is definatly better than the 10/11/31 build? Thats the one Im thinking about going for. From what I read even if you went all Feral, you still would lose to a rogue or other melee class simply because they can do it better.

also what does AGI give to rogues?

Yrys
05-16-2005, 11:50 PM
Rogue attack power is based on half str and half agi. So, in addition to armor, crits, and dodge, agi gives rogues attack power.

Druid attack power is based solely on str.

Ghost Bear
05-17-2005, 12:11 AM
For pvp I really believe the Feral Tree has the advantage. While Nature's Swiftness is nice, with strategic use of Feral Charge, Improved Bash and Improved Nature's Grasp (5pts Balance tree) I have not had any trouble healing. Even beat out a lot of higher level horde in pvp including Shaman. Majitsu, yes a rogue will be better than our cat form and a warrior will be better than our bear form. But that's not the point. We can do both. And we can heal/snare/nuke to boot. I've never lost to a rogue in a melee. Thorns does a good job especially when they are the combat type of rogue that spams sinister stike. And with armor of bear form they don't hurt to much too fast that Rejuv/Regrowth can't keep up. Also with the new Frenzied Regeneration our survivability is even further increased. Cat for Ravage is 350% damage where as rogue ambush is only 250%. The difference is rogues have more crit chance/power and more combo point returns to spam the finishers faster. But we can increase crit too with AGI. And talents like Sharpened Claws and Blood Frenzy help bridge the gap. The trick to beating rogues and warriors is not doing their job better. Its using what they don't have to their disadvantage. Bear is good for rogues who like to run. Feral Charge stops them in their tracks. Invest in Faerie Fire for bear form and that will save you from having to pop out to caster to throw it on. FF keeps them from stealthing. So you can heal and they can't.

As for gear I'm playing around with stats. But I'm leaning to STR/AGI/SPI. STR for attack power in forms. AGI for crit and cat form armor points. SPI because although stamina in nice, unless you put points into the talents (Combat Regeneration 10pts rest required) HP won't regenerate automatically in combat. But spirit does. Increase the amount of spirit means more mp when I pop out to caster and heal. This means more rejuv/regrowth and more hp regeneration than the talent can give me.

Edit: I should have been more specific. Improved Nature's grasp is a total of 5pts. in balance tree if maxed. 1 pt to get the skill and 4 pts to max the improved.

Ghost Bear
05-17-2005, 01:45 AM
Also warriors are a little more tricky now that they got some love and snares have been nerfed with deminishing returns. Before you could just perma root and dot to death. Now you have to be a little more strategic. Deminishing returns only affects roots done within a 15 second interval. One way I like to fight warriors is to Root in the opener and put on dot/debuffs. If you like throw in a nuke or 2. Personally I like to hit a Rejuv/Regrowth to buffer the oncoming damage rather than use the mana for a nuke. Shift to bear soon though before roots break so they cant hit as hard right off the bat. Most times if you have distance they will intercept in and then hit with an instant skill (Mortal strike if they are Arms spec.). One way to combat this is to stay out of melee range but inside intercept range. Play around with feral charge to learn how to gauge this.

After the initial flay try to time out the 15 seconds on the roots. If you have the hp permitting wait it out. Though with Arms/Fury this probably wont happen if they are using mortal strike. If you can't wait then you just got to deal with it. Pop out and hit rejuv and Nature's grasp. With imp NG it usually procs within 1-2 hits. Back off slightly (not into intercept distance) and throw on Regeneration. Redot/debuff if necessary and go back to bear form. I like to save my bash as long as possible to get in that next heal. Typically in a fight I have the mana supply to shift out/heal/re-shift about 3 times. But I'm using Swiftshifting.
This is a way to fight arms/fury warriors. I simply look at the weapon. If its a heavy 2hander, I just assume arms/fury. If I see a shield then I assume they are split or protection heavy.

In this case you can open in cat form and their damage won't be enough to necessarilly kill you too quick. If you can get the drop, then prowl>ravage are great. Plus it crits often and when I get Blood frenzy that will add more points. I have not tried yet, but a friend with feline swiftness can get behind most players mid fight for a shred (backstab). This is tough since we don't have a skill like gouge. But you can do it. If not then spam claw and Rake. Get as many point u can and hit a Ferocious Bite (Eviscerate). The addition of this skill has been great to cat druids. By this point you need to heal so pop out hit N.Grasp. Heal up and shift to bear for the rest of the fight.

If you can't get the drop then more emphasis is put on survivability than dps. Only go to cat form if damage control is fully handled.

And don't forget about terrain. In any fight a druid no matter which spec should know the land. We are the best escape artists and the best and using the environment. If you need to run then root em and hit travel form. If you're in cat and have feline swiftness, hit sprint and get out even faster. If you are near water get to it. Take a fight to the beach and we have a great advantage. Water form is the fastest their is there (yeah I know shammies got water walk, but they still can't go under like us). Get deep and heal, then dot em. They will probably stay on land or go back to it. You can use this time to at least heal up. But if you can sucker em out to the water they are dead. When they go back swim up behind em. Hit cat form and Tiger's Fury>>Shred. Then repeat the process.

Kabaoum
05-17-2005, 10:16 AM
From what I read even if you went all Feral, you still would lose to a rogue or other melee class simply because they can do it better.

While this is for the most part true, you would never want to use JUST one form in a fight anyway. While a rogue would be able to act like a rogue better(not because they are stronger, but because they have a larger array of skills at their disposal) any rogue is going to find your bearform is a hard pill to swallow. Coupled with thorns and the ability to mitigate large ammounts of melee dps rogues(especially dagger rogues) will eat themselves alive trying to kill you. A good warrior with an arms/fury build is the only kind of warrior that really scares me, just as ghost bear said, the best way to handle it is to start off with root/nuke in druid form, or an ambush(ravage) in cat. you want to do as much unreturned damage as you can before it comes to you and the warrior standing toe to toe. When that happens it just becomes a matter of you outlasting them through clever use of your bash, frenzied regen, and nature's grasp to heal yourself.

One more thing I should touch upon is how your weapon's dps has no affect on your animal form dps. So when your picking your weapon that will increase your animal form's power, pick up something with +str or +attack power, and remember, 1 point of strength becomes 2 points of attack power(more if you have the strength of the wild talent, I've seen ppl say it doesn't add enough of a boost to make it worthwhile, but it gives me an extra 18 str when I shift to animal form) Try to pick up a viscious hammer if your still a lower level, that weapon took me from around lvl 20 to 45 before I found anything that boosted my dps more. And don't forget to spend some time working up your weapon skill by fighting things in druid form because you don't gain any weapon skill while fighting in animal forms.

Mazikeen
05-17-2005, 11:12 AM
One comment I did not see here is that innervate is a primary tool in pvp as well and shoud be specced. Especially in tank form. My tank has near 7000 armor now and 4100 hp, my mana however is only 3900, and likely to go down a bit more as I gear up for max hp/ armor count. Innervate with that kind of build is critical to have enough mana in a pvp battle to outlast the opponent at times.

I'm confused on the statement druid is based solely on strength. I never realized a big dps or substantial increase in blocking ability or parry when I was tanked in full warbear/bear gear, all mid 50 stuff. As such I changed my gear for max armor count/max hp with int as second, and agility as 3rd, it's working very well.

In my cat form, wearing full agility, no strength, I now can "more than often" crit on opening for over 1000hp, which I never did in my bear gear. I would really have liked to see my bear gear work better than monkey gear, but that did not seem to be the case. I "feel" I dodge more with the agi gear, meaning my slight hit in hp is negated as they miss me more, than I ever "feel" I realized in my str gear in blocking ability.

Ghost Bear
05-17-2005, 11:51 AM
Mazikeen, the idea of druid being str based comes from the feral perspective. GM's confirmed that in both bear and cat forms, str plays the role of mods on attack power. This is different than a rogue in which its split with str and agi.

As for innervate, its a prominent tactic because 95% of druids are restoration specced. Yes its a good skill but there is a difference between a restoration specced feral druid and a quote feral tree druid. What many don't realize is its not the active skills that make a feral powerful, but the passives ie. sharpened claws and the like. For a full out feral druid, innervate isn't so important. And to spec so far into restoration you will lose the things which gives a feral spec its own power. Again things like sharpened claws, blood frenzy, thick hide etc. The things which give you staying power.

A lot of this is gear dependent. A large problem is that most of the gear you come across is +INT +SPI which for a feral tree druid isn't so helpful. Its interesting to know your situation with gear though. I'm looking for Tiger line myself to max out STR and AGI as much as possible. This is because I find myself using bear and cat almost equally. Currently my leatherworking is at 200. I'm even thinking about going into the elemental realm of this instead of the Tribal. The gears with +crit which were reserved for rogues look a little appealling now that cat form has become more powerful. And agreed Viscious Hammer is nice. I'm trying to farm it right now. And just as Kabaoum said. Take the time to level your weapon skill. Because while dps and speed doesn't carry into forms, skill does. A weapon 40 skill levels under will not help your dps much even if it has +XX strength.

One thing I recommend every aspiring feral druid to do is make a rogue and a warrior. Get the feel for their use in pve and pvp. Then go back to your druid and learn to integrate the skills of both of these. When you can do this then you will find you won't need healing and mana as much as your fighting will be more effecient.

Yrys
05-17-2005, 03:10 PM
In my cat form, wearing full agility, no strength, I now can "more than often" crit on opening for over 1000hp, which I never did in my bear gear. I would really have liked to see my bear gear work better than monkey gear, but that did not seem to be the case. I "feel" I dodge more with the agi gear, meaning my slight hit in hp is negated as they miss me more, than I ever "feel" I realized in my str gear in blocking ability.

Well, yes, you will crit more with monkey gear, and dodge more. Agi still gives us armor, dodge, and crits, but the attack power (though not as flashy as crits) all comes from str.

Guess it's just a personal pref. ;)

Mazikeen
05-17-2005, 04:08 PM
I'll have my gear chart here, I have alot of +attack power on my "monkey" suit

I won't post it all and bore all yet again with my equipment,LOL, I do like playing with equipment, but my monkey suit has the following, this is including druid base stats:

AC 2074
agi 150
str 91
stamina 165
int 100
spirit 124
My gear set also has a total of +60 attack power, and 2 +1% to crit items. So likely I'm getting the benefit of str? by having the +60 attack, yet adding the % crit items on top of a high agility build. That's why I'm likely seeing better overall performance from the monkey suit as opposed to my old bear suit. Again, one of the things l like, and dislike, about the druid class ;) is that gear makes such a difference.

If you walk up to any 60 warrior, rogue, warlock, priest, you'll likely see the same on each. The vast majority of players are "cookie cutter" in equipment for thier class. In their defense, that may be their only option. The druid however has a near infinite build ability based on equipment. Just look at them on the server, sure some just have crap and 3 wildheart as they focus only on getting the set. But there are some, myself included that carry more of the "important" stats right now prior to full wildheart, and some, myself included, that will never run an upper level instance in full wildheart. Neat stuff, might have to dig into my bank and root out my old strength build, see how it works with my +attack gear now.

Kabaoum
05-17-2005, 07:04 PM
My gear set also has a total of +60 attack power, and 2 +1% to crit items. So likely I'm getting the benefit of str?
The +60 attack power is effectively giving you the same increase as +30 str, before factoring in strength of the wild. if you add in strength of the wild, +30 str will become +34 str and the same as +68 attack power.
If you take the str you already have into account when you factor in strength of the wild, giving your 91 str an additional 30 instead of the +60 attack power, you would start with 121 that compounds into 136 after your talent skill. Subtract your original 91 from that and you come up with 45 points of str and +90 attack power added by giving yourself +30 str instead of +60 attack power.
By this example you can see how the more str you give yourself the more this skill will continue to snowball into large ammounts of melee damage increases.
That's the reason I preffer str over agi, though I do still have +59 to agi via items while I have +91 to str, I think it's important to find a good balance between the two in order to maximize your dps.

Ghost Bear
05-17-2005, 07:07 PM
I'm glad to know that you are getting the benefit from the +crit% gear as I was not 100% sure this carried into forms. I was gonna take a leap of faith and try it out.

As for the Wildheart I'm not even sure if I'll even bother with it. It looks nice, but its not the be all and end all. They got another set too though that I saw but forget where. Something like reduced mana cost of shifts by 150mp on it. Don't remember the name though or if its even in game yet

Majitsu
05-18-2005, 10:35 PM
Was playing around with talents and I came up with this. Strategy is to last as long as possible in bear and using grasp/swiftness/bash to heal. Will it work? What weaknesses does it have? I want to be as good as possible at 1vs1 duels

Balance Talents (5 points)

# Nature's Grasp - 1/1 point
While active, any time an enemy strikes the caster, they have a 35% chance to become afflicted by Entangling Roots (Rank 1). Only usable outdoors. 1 charge. Lasts 45 seconds.

# Improved Nature's Grasp - 4/4 points
Increases the chance for your Nature's Grasp to entangle an enemy by 65%.



Feral Combat Talents (25 points)

# Ferocity - 5/5 points
Reduces the cost of your Maul, Swipe, Claw, and Rake abilities by 5 Rage or Energy.

# Improved Demoralizing Roar - 1/5 point
Increases the Attack Power reduction of your Demoralizing Roar by 5%.

# Improved Bash - 2/2 points
Increases the stun duration of your Bash ability by 1 second.

# Sharpened Claws - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance while in Bear or Cat form by 5%.

# Feral Charge - 1/1 point
Causes you to charge an enemy, stopping its movement and interrupting any spell being cast for 4 seconds.

# Primal Fury - 5/5 points
Gives you a 100% chance to gain an additional 5 Rage anytime you get a critical strike while in Bear form.

# Faerie Fire (Bear) - 1/1 point
Decrease the armor of the target by 175 for 40 seconds. While affected, the target cannot stealth or turn invisible.

# Thick Hide - 5/5 points
Increases your Armor rating from items while in Bear form by 10%.



Restoration Talents (21 points)

# Furor - 5/5 points
Gives you a 100% chance to gain 10 Rage when you shapeshift into Bear form.

# Improved Mark of the Wild - 5/5 points
Increases the effects of your Mark of the Wild spell by 35%.

# Nature's Focus - 5/5 points
Gives you a 60% chance to avoid interruption caused by damage while casting the Healing Touch or Regrowth spells.

# Gift of Nature - 1/1 point
Increases the effect of your Healing Touch, Rejuvenation, Regrowth, and Tranquility spells by 5%.

# Improved Rejuvenation - 4/5 points
Increases the effect of your Rejuvenation spell by 12%.

# Nature's Swiftness - 1/1 point
When activated, your next Nature spell becomes an instant cast spell.

Ghost Bear
05-19-2005, 02:27 AM
I like that build for its purpose. With the right gear you would hold out very well in any war of attrition. Primal Fury will do good in keeping your rage up there for more gain out of Frenzied Regeneration. The only downside to this build I think is in the lack of dps. Which is a problem in many cases. What happens when it comes down to the wire and you just can't get them to die? That's what cat is good for IF you invest in the passives for it. If not cat will be useless really. So as for the strength vs weakness you asked, in my opinion, Strength: supreme survivability (taking in proper equipment to match it). Weakness: no real option available to boost dps (even if its only for a few seconds).

But with all that resilliancy I'll bet most ppl would be too pissed to fight you a second time :)

Kabaoum
05-19-2005, 02:45 AM
You should still be able to do some decent damage in bearform, not a whole lot that can be done to boost your bear dps unlike the cat, who has tons of passives to boost dps. With a build like that I think you'd find a lot of classes would have a very hard time taking you down. Mages in particular, bearform is really tough for them to deal with, and with the right gear they won't be able to deal enough damage to kill you before they go OOM. Bearform deals some moderate and very consistent damage, just be sure not to neglect your str and sta too much in favor of int and spi and I think it would be a pretty solid build. Personally I'm a huge fan of catform in pvp, nothin beats starting the fight with a 1k ravage crit. ;)

Ghost Bear
05-19-2005, 05:37 AM
True bear is a beast to deal with. Crazy hp compounded with crazy heals and wicked armor. Yeah mages can go oom if they aren't careful. The thing is, mana regens in combat where as hp doesn't unless affected by an outside source(regrowth/pots/combat endurance talent). And if they stack spirit it just comes back faster. Against mages with no mana there is not much threat. But its a little different against classes like shamans that can still hit hard(with a 2hander) and got decent armor as well.

This is where I like cat form. But its my playstyle. Cat to open(if possible). After combo points are expended pop out and throw heal then go to bear for the body of the fight. If its a mage I'll just stay in cat since those quick hits make it real hard for them to cast. When I can work the enemy down (or if they are just regening too fast for bear to keep up) I like to pop out and heal one more time then shift cat and go for the jugular. If they run, hit sprint and backstab. If I can't there's always travel. Get close enough to shift bear and feral charge.

The thing that's nice is that the more I put in agility the longer I can stay in cat form. I've gone whole melee fights in cat now and its great. One thing that's nice is that against shammies, while they are hard at first they don't have the healing capabilities like we do. If you can go straight offense and put them into the defensive they often just don't have the skills to get out.

But that's just me. I love my cat just as much as rest. love innervate

Moonshadow
05-19-2005, 07:03 AM
IMPO
For any PVP (solo,group,raid) Innervate is a most..

Ghost Bear
05-19-2005, 08:44 AM
Meh...I do just fine without innervate. I don't really want it. The more I go into feral tree, the less I find myself having to heal.

Crimson13
05-19-2005, 11:36 AM
Unfortunately, at 60 in instances or parties, healing is what we do and most people spec towards that, where innervate is a must.

Myself in PvP, I never use Innervate (or incredibly rarely), on the test server I've specced almost full feral, and for PvP that seems to be the way to go (for me at least) if you have the gear for it.

Majitsu
05-19-2005, 03:51 PM
My biggest worry about going full feral is that you would have to run away to heal mainly because how easily another class can interrupt your heal. what if you accidently run too far and break combat? Would you lose the duel because of that? And it also gives people time to use bandages to heal themselves. or to drink/eat.

Kabaoum
05-19-2005, 10:42 PM
That's where skills like improved bear stun, nature's swifness, barkskin, and nature's grasp come in handy. all of those skills work to make it impossible for others to interupt you by stun, root, a shield that makes you ignore melee dmg while casting, or just plain making your heals instacast. Frenzied regeneration is uninteruptable also, and you don't have to shift out of bearform to use it.

Badgemagus
05-20-2005, 03:23 PM
I feel invincible when I'm PvP'ing. I've consistantly defeated rogues 3 levels above me and warriors 5 levels above. Mages rarely give me trouble and Hunters are cake. Dire Bear is my be all end all. Natures Grasp is literally a life saver for that mid battle heal that I need. Feral charge stops the runners and casters trying to heal, and bash is the finishing touch to stop a last minute heal for teh win. Cheetah keeps me alive when the zerg amasses, and Cat gets me the jump for quick kills. I LOVE being a Druid.

Badgemagus
05-20-2005, 03:29 PM
In reference to Majitsu said, I really dont see that situation as something that will come up. My brother is a full feral Druid and he heal's just fine. If you root the opponent, he cant heal because the roots have a DoT effect. I really see this situation as unlikely. I cant remember one time where this was an issue for me.

Pray
05-20-2005, 05:19 PM
I am fully feral specced but being a tauren we get 2 stuns, which should keep you alive for any real world pvp situation. In dueling its a different case, but dueling is a lost art anyways.

Feline swiftness is amazing. You will be outrunning people and most non druids wont even know why. If you go FPS style in melee combat, it is not difficult at all to get numerous shreds off with feline swiftness.

The only class you would need to "outlast" would be paladins and other druids. In both these cases, healing without a stun is viable via cheetah etc. If the other druid is a caster or rejuv, your goign to smash him bear v bear neways.... It all seems to balance out. Paladins can tdo jack if u run neways.. What is good for duelings hould not be considered a "pvp" build

Jareck
05-22-2005, 05:48 PM
Great info guys! I was actually more looking for actual talent trees than strategies. I just respec'd to be 7/0/31 and I love the healing increase. The lost dmg from my moonfire is negligible because of the increase in mana available per fight.