View Full Forums : PvP Pissing Thread: Resto vs. Feral (sorry balance)


Rockwell
12-29-2005, 05:45 PM
For the full back story please go here: http://wow.forums.thedruidsgrove.org/showthread.php?t=9736


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockwell
Finnally an example! nice... so when you go into say the Lumber Mill at the start of a match and it's 5 on 5... who's sitting? Do you let your team die, so after the other side captures the LM you can maybe sneak up on one of their damaged casters and get your mighty kill shot?

Crowd Control - I mean Sheep/succubus/sap/ice-trap... we have roots and hibernate. Roots is ok vs. warriors and hibernate is ok for druids in feral... but, it is bottom of the barrel CC.

Burst DPS - I mean being able to hit so hard and fast that their healers can't possibly keep them alive. I can kill just about anyone if you give me 5 minutes... but in BG's against good teams, that's not good for anything.

I'm not saying there's no place for druid DPS in BGs, I'm just saying healing is our strongest role in general. To that end, Innervate is very much a pvp talent... not just the pve raid/crutch talent people claim it to be.



Originally Posted by Goa

- Ehm.. Not many skilled warlocks use Succubus in BG's as felhunter is much stronger. All warlocks I talked to pretty much agree on this.

- Root and hibernate aren't bottom barell CC at all. That's your opinion maybe, but hardly the truth.

- When fighting and high-end group in AB you won't be able to cast many of your heals in combat. If you do, you are playing against crappy teams. Sure you can survive longer by going bear.. but then again, you can't do **** in bear as you are a resto druid.

- The most important thing in AB isnt to heal your teammates, it's to keep the opposite side of taking the flag. If I want a healer, a priest or a pally is better suited.

- And yes, people are sitting all the time in BG's. And yes, I can burst DPs enough to outdamage any healer going at my target (if i'm lucky ofc.. but that goes for all classes).

I think you are stuck in the old resto-druids-rock-thinking from back in the days when restoration was the only tree worth playing as the other ones were too weak. Not very rare really, many resto druids seem to have tunnel-vision about that.

So no, I still don't agree with you one bit. Resto druids are strong sometimes.. but when it comes to healing, i rather have a priest or pally on my team than a druid.

Oh.. I gave you some examples why feral druids are stronger. But you somehow failed to coment on that. Please do the same and prove to me why resto druids are better.


Whether or not warlocks use Succubus' has little bearing on the fact that seduce is a much more effective form of CC. Root allows casters to cast and melee to use range attacks. I love it and use it alot... so don't let my claim that it's bottom of the barrel CC confuse you with me saying it's useless. This is a kinda moot point considering A) this is a balance spell and B) healers are more likely to use it since they're in caster form more often.

Hibernate is awsome for cathing druids in feral... maybe shaman in travel (does this come up often in bg's?)I've never seen it playing For the Horde!)) but again, it favors Resto druids 'cause it's mainly feral druids that get hibernated by other druids. (I know I've been hibernated by balance spec'ed, but they're not part of this thread!@!) It is also bottom of the barrel since it's effective against the least played class in the game... and only them (which is us! :wavey: )

I take great exception to the "when fighting high-end..." I fight some awsome players and some rather bad ones... I rember this one AB where I wasn't hit at all in the entire 5mins it took to 5cap. On the other hand, I suspect entire guilds of having /target Rockwell hot keys and I can't get a second of peace. Using cat form stealth to set up for healing, nature's grasp, roots, 10k bear AC, stuns, shaman's totems, travel form, the rest of my team... I've got alot of tools to work with to avoid/frustrate and otherwise shut-down my would be killers. Yes, I've stared down the barel of a rogue with Thunderfury and lived to get more heals out, thanks.

I don't even know what you were thinking saying resto druids can't do **** in bear. To begin with ALL druids benefit from the most powerful aspects of bear, namely Armor bonus, Bash and Regen. Beyond that you can have 40 pts in resto and still get feral charge. I have feral charge, I have a full set of Defiler gear from AB, and 4 peices of PvP teir 1 armor (I don't wear the shoulders and the boots cause AB's is better)... my bear is massive. Before I had all that gear, i still could frustrate the hell outta people... and I was wearing green welp armor the end all be all rogue stopper.

Druid Burst DPS is a bit of a joke. You need stealth and you can't vanish... and kittys are a favorite target of just about everyone. So to get that DPS your leaving yourself wide open in our most vulnerable form. Granted, being Alliance does offer NE druids two major advantages to cat/stealth and our most useful DPS roll in AB (being able to kill a single defender and solo cap). Horde doesn't have humans and that horrible preception or whatever allows them to see-invis and we don't have NE's who might be shadowmelded god knows where defending the base.

I'm sure you kill people, most players aren't that good.

The most important thing in AB isn't flag defending as much as the initial assault. When two strong teams play, the intial assault is often a strong determinent about who's going to win... and in those fights, before GY's are estabilished and res'ers are gonna be back at the starting line healing is key. I don't think I've ever seen a team that's suffered from too much healing... I guess it could happen, but prob. not. So a feral druid attacking the bs, has to stealth and travel through the other team to get to some one to ravage... there's a good waste of time. I can stealth the second I enter a base so the other team hasn't a clue I'm there and pop out and heal a team to full... negating effort the other's teams put forth.

The I'd rather have a priest or paly is my favorite.... I could easily say I'd rather have a mage, warlock, hunter, rogue, DPS warrior, shadow priest... but I'm not going to lower myself to the oldest anti-druid argument in the book. Instead I'll point out that my heals stack/compliment priest/shaman/paly heals and putting me and another healer in a group is a solid combination. The crit regrowth talent is a big reason I'm spec'ed resto, it's a great talent for pvp.. and with a bit more +healing my crits will be landing for 2000K. My healing touches are all juiced out, and go along nicely with flash heals.

Tunnel Vision? not likely. I even respec'ed 30/21 a month or so ago for a week to give it a full test drive on the Live servers. I'll give you that over all, it's the best dueling build for a druid. I was eating Warlocks/Shadow-Priests/shaman, rogues and warriors were even easier... hunters were a toss up. Didn't really try paly's or druids. In PvP when I went to heal, I felt kinda limp... and that was the major rub. I'm a known healer... so maybe some new-comer feral druid wouldn't get so much attention... but it seemed like people were itching to tear cat a new one, and bear is great either way... but extra hp wasn't worth the weaker heals.

In closing feral druids can't heal aswell as resto druids and healing is what is needed more often then not. The world is littered with DPS-boys and you can't shake a bush without stirring up 15 rogues and 12 hunters. If you wanna pvp feral and take the time to make groups that have other people providing the heals... by all means go ahead. If you wanna win and would rather get invited to established/winning pvp groups... give resto a whirl~

The books been thrown son, I hope you got your ducking shows on.

Yrys
12-29-2005, 06:22 PM
This isn't a warning, just a notification of sorts, since the other thread got pretty heated. While this is definitely the forum to be rough and rowdy in, personal attacks are still against the posting rules. Argue the subject, not the people. Thanks. :)

Rockwell
12-30-2005, 02:29 PM
I try to keep it cordiale :ange:

Fendicano
12-30-2005, 10:06 PM
<whips it out and prepares to turn the snow yellow>

Well, not really, but it was fun to type. I do agree with Rock in that healing wins AB, not face shredding. I don't, however, agree that feral is as useless as he makes it sound in AB. Granted, 90% of all feral druids out there don't really understand how to play one, but that by no means says that a feral spec sucks. Most feral druids are druids who should have rolled another class. Things like "I'm a cat druid" or "I'm a tanking druid" make me wonder why those people didn't roll a rogue or a warrior/pally. But I digress, back to my point. I brought up the part about healers winning AB to prove my point. Just as healers are needed for one side, they are needed for the other side as well. A feral druid is the best chance of tearing a healer hiding behind an army a new rectal opening. If there are already enough healers, I swap my gear and I play my spec. If not, my heals are a little weak, and I don't suck monkey dong if I am the only one left at a flag. I say that we can tear up on healers because we can take them out of combat for so long. Between pounce (with an extra 1 second for talents) and bash, I can take a priest out of combat for 8 seconds (if I remember right). A feral opening usually starts with pounce, rip, shred, shift to bear, bash, enrage, maul, swipe, maul. The problem most people have is that they try to finish the entire combat in cat form to kill the healer. This is fine if the healer is the only person there, but most often, that is not the case. Most times, you start on the healer and their buddies see what is happening and come for you, which is when you switch to bear. If you can get more damage dealt with cat before shifting to bear, do it, but for god's sake, don't sit there with a piss poor armor class and let 3 people wail on you. You may take out the healer that way, but you won't live to let any know you did. I get criticized a lot for the use of swipe when you are trying to kill a specifc person, not deal group damage, but it works for burst DPS in bear. I have shown how it works to other ferals and they seem to like the method as well. Yes, it burns through your rage, but as Maul and Swipe aren't on the same timers, it gives you a much faster attack speed. Also, with the rage crit talents in Feral tree, you wind up not losing that much rage when you use specials. The short and long of it simply remains that if YOU are a better healer, be a healer. If YOU are a better feral druid, be a feral druid. In either case, don't tell others how to play their class because with druids, there is no right or wrong way, only what you prefer.

<puts it back in his pants and puts on his raincoat. . .this could get messy>

Fendicano
12-30-2005, 10:07 PM
Oh yeah. . .and screw paragraphs too. . .

Atrus
12-31-2005, 01:05 AM
Dude - Rockwell,

Talk about someone who loves getting in the last word by opening a closed thread.

:sumo: more power to you i guess

By the way - I loved that thread 'Bare-Minimum Innervater'

Rockwell
12-31-2005, 02:39 PM
I don't think that thread was closed, just Ndaiyne said to take it here... so here we are. Maybe it was closed, I didn't try and post in it once I saw the mod reply. Besides, once the idea of the 'pissing thread' was on the table, it was too good to let go to waste.

I really don't see how Druids are the ultimate healer killer. Try your thing on me and I'll NS hibernate you. Try it on a priest and they'll fear you. Hunters, warlocks, rogues and mages all seem best suited to shutting down healers. I'm sure you can be an annoyance, and I'm sure you can keep'm from healing. There's times when I do the same thing cause I'm either OOM or been forced to bear by pets/warriors so I go attack somthing more worthwhile like a druid or priest.

I don't recall specifically saying 'feral suck' at any point. I'm just pointing out how healers contribute more, and I do laugh when I see alliance kitties trying to get kills while they're team persishes. If your happy rolling the way you roll... keep going. Just don't expect to end up in my group, and don't expect to get AB invites the second you log into the game.

Finally... friends and personality go ALONG way in this game. If you really wanna be a star feral player, you better bring somthing besides your druid to the group. Making people laugh, being a good leader or being a good friend allow some people to do things others aren't going to have the chance to do... so g'luck.

goa
12-31-2005, 02:49 PM
Thanks for some really interesting points. Doesn't at all sound like "pissing" to me. :)
Ya you have some points.. maybe it's easier being pvp druid on alliance side.
Ns Hibernate is a real killer for feral druids also. I used to do it all the time myself when i was resto.

I don't agree at druid burst damage is a joke. Sure you have to come up stealthed behind the target but that isnt really hard to pull off and happens all the time in BG's. I'm sure there are times when a resto druid is more useful than a feral one, but PvP is much about situation and versatility and I myself think the feral druid is better suited for that overall.

Anyway, nice post. Cheers! :)

goa
12-31-2005, 02:52 PM
In either case, don't tell others how to play their class because with druids, there is no right or wrong way, only what you prefer.

<3

Atrus
12-31-2005, 05:14 PM
Here is my personal opinion on pvp and proper spec.

If you are a good gamer, you can generally do well at basically everything.

As a druid you can heal well and kill well.

If you are a bad gamer, you will probably get owned even if you have the advantage.

Really spec doesn't matter a whole lot.

Lag>Skills>Spec

Anubrim
01-01-2006, 02:33 PM
I agree that there is nothing more important than a dedicated healer. As a 14/32/5 feral spec druid I never lose sight of that fact, and thats why I evaluate every situation and swap gear accordingly. If healing is short I heal, however if there is plenty of healing I put on my dps gear and have fun, BUT, I still toss out heals when needed. I never ignore that no matter what mode I am in.

As I stated in a previous thread. I do get invited into a couple of the uber AB groups but I dont kid myself. They know I am feral however they expect me to heal and I am happy to fill that role. I keep getting reinvited so I guess my heals are alright.

If I was able to do instances such as MC, ZG, and BWL more or at all I would probably have stayed resto spec just because the heals are more efficient, and as I stated above, i agree that there is nothing more important than a dedicated healer.

On a side note. I have had other druids NS Hibernate me before and I laugh. Seems like a big waste of NS to me. *shrug*

Atrus
01-01-2006, 06:52 PM
One of the problems that I believe most every druid faces in battleground situations (or even pve) is that there are never enough healers.

I don't think I have ever been in a situation where I could effectively stay feral and not feel bad about my teammates getting owned. The reason is that there just aren't enough healers.

I like playing this class alot - I hate the expectations, the talent issues, the gear issues, and the fact that the 'other hybrid' won't heal when you are around because you are 'more of a primary healer' than they are.

My final conclusion on the druid class is that I will play the way I want when I want. If I throw a heal and use a chunk of my mana to help someone and they are a capable fighter, I will heal them as often as I can. If they get a heal and run into a group of 3-4, they will die and not be healed again.

goa
01-03-2006, 10:52 AM
Just because you are feral doesn't mean you don't heal. Sure.. lack of healers is a factor.. but I usually try to spam half my mana (if i can) on heals before I engage (or get engaged).

Someone said combat healer - I think thats a pretty good summary for feral druids.

Claritondeus
01-03-2006, 02:17 PM
I only have one thing to add to this convo.

In the 30-39 and 40-49 bg's, at least on spirestone alliance, there is an overwhelming lack of healers. Everyone wants to dps frantically, and anyone that tries to heal dies in a heartbeat. Seems priests dont pvp until they get to their late 50s or 60 when they have enough stam / ac to not be one shotted every five seconds. There are a ton of uber pvp lv60 priests on my server, many of whom I assume pvpd early in the game and then again late in the game.

From playing both a druid and priest, I personally think that my druid is better fit for pvp healing between lv 30-50. My priest is shadow (as they all should be while lvling up unless you are just masochistic), and I have had fun in bg's with it, but I get killed SO quick. I never go into shadow form in pvp, as I understand my place as a healer, but the dot's that I can throw, combined with mind flay helps out as much as my heals.

Druids can throw heals, then go into bear to deal with the attention that I receive from my glowing hands while another druid heals me. Best pvp combo I've been in yet is a shadow preist, me as resto druid, and a mage. They couldnt figure out who to attack :) Everyone in this thread seems to be talking about lv 60bg's, and I thought id throw some light on what I've found in midgame pvp.

Oh yeah, and I dig the new smilies. :elfbiggri

Anubrim
01-03-2006, 02:33 PM
I havent done any lower lvl BG's with any of my alts but from what I have seen on our server I understand your points. so many people on our server have twinks that are lvl 29 or 39 and that is where they are keeping them just for the BG's.

they also all have the best blue items for that lvl they can get and their weapons have the best enchants. I have seen so many rogues under lvl 30 with the firey enchant on both weapons that it isnt funny.

One of the best trios I have been involved with was a paladin, warrior and myself, the druid. The paladin, that is holy spec, actually did most of the healing which is the way he likes to pay, however I did heal whenever needed.

Claritondeus
01-03-2006, 05:06 PM
I havent done any lower lvl BG's with any of my alts but from what I have seen on our server I understand your points. so many people on our server have twinks that are lvl 29 or 39 and that is where they are keeping them just for the BG's.

they also all have the best blue items for that lvl they can get and their weapons have the best enchants. I have seen so many rogues under lvl 30 with the firey enchant on both weapons that it isnt funny.

I have learned to absolutley despise rogues as a priest. And a Druid for that matter. At least until I got the green whelp armor that puts them to sleep :) Especially twinked ones that run around in bg's stealthed in packs at the lv cap (39, 49) and gank priests. They almost all have the pvp trinket, and if they break a fear, priest is done for.


One of the best trios I have been involved with was a paladin, warrior and myself, the druid. The paladin, that is holy spec, actually did most of the healing which is the way he likes to pay, however I did heal whenever needed.

Well said. "I did heal whenever needed". There should be no such thing as a druid that ONLY heals, or ONLY runs in cat, or ONLY tanks.

Badgemagus
01-04-2006, 06:59 PM
When I PvP with my warlock, Im using my succubus 95% of the time. With her I can Seduce one target, Fear another, and burn down the third target. In 1v1 fights, I will dominate just about anyone with my succubus. Druids included. (shamans are still a pain in the ass) Warriors of course are my biggest issue as they get right up in my face and pretty much kill any spell casting I can do. With the succubus I have a chance to seduce them, kite and unload a couple of big nukes before they can even touch me.

The Felhunter is great anti-caster pet but he's pretty much useless when it comes to fighting warriors and rogues. The succubus has far more utility against all humanoid types.

goa
01-06-2006, 04:05 PM
Funny. I don't usually don't have any problems against epic geared locks with succ out. I have MAJOR problems if they have felhunter out.

Groet
01-09-2006, 03:27 AM
probably because of the tainted blood (http://thottbot.com/?sp=19655) spell the felhunter has, amongst other things...
though in a higher rank at lvl 60 than linked to here...

goa
01-09-2006, 11:08 AM
probably because of the tainted blood (http://thottbot.com/?sp=19655) spell the felhunter has, amongst other things...
though in a higher rank at lvl 60 than linked to here...

No, more like spell lock.

Fendicano
01-09-2006, 09:20 PM
In response to the post about not getting AB invites, I wouldn't know about that. I get plenty of invites as the people I normally roll with know I can handle my toon. They know I can play my spec and they also know that I am better off in a feral form, only casting heals when they are necessary. No, I don't get invites as soon as I log in. . .because I B*** slap those that send me tells as soon as I get on. I usually have business to take care of online before I actually play, and now everyone I play with understands that. Once I've been on a while, I'll gradually get tells and I don't mind. I'm not an exceptional healer. . .people know that, so they don't pigeon hole me in to healing, they let me play my way. If you aren't in a guild or don't have friends that will let you do this, I feel pain for you.

EDIT: That's not to say that I don't work with the group or heal when needed, my group just understands my strengths and lets me play to them.

Rockwell
01-10-2006, 02:13 PM
My favorite is when the felhunter devours nature's swiftness in the .5 secs it takes for you to cast a heal after NS'n. I agree that the felhunter is the most dangerous of the warlocks... the succubus can be bad if used right and the warlock gets a lucky crit at the right time... felhunters are just fire and forget. Plus you can kill the succubus much easier then the felhunter...

In response to Fedancio, I say please go back and review my post about AB invites. I never said what you imply/state I said... in fact I point out that if you have friends or a fixxed group that accepts your style, fantastic. I can understand not feeling confident healing, it's the hardest role in the game.

To quote myself:

Finally... friends and personality go ALONG way in this game. If you really wanna be a star feral player, you better bring somthing besides your druid to the group. Making people laugh, being a good leader or being a good friend allow some people to do things others aren't going to have the chance to do

Fendicano
01-10-2006, 08:59 PM
My apologies for the mis-quote. I only post on the forums from work and I may have been on a call at the time. :lol:

Also, it is not that I don't feel comfortable healing. . .I just don't like to do it. To be quite honest, it is boring as hell. I have successfully been the primary healer for many high end instances and have healed in ZG. (Due to conflicts in my schedule, I am not able to run MC right now.) I don't like that all you can do when you are healing is watch life bars. . .it is mundane and gets old very quickly. It's not that I can't do it, it's that it suck to do so.

Yes, I realize I rolled a "healer." But I have 2 points to make on that subject. First being that I always play a druid first on any game I play. Second being that when I rolled a druid, the description Blizzard gave for a druid was versatile, not a pigeon-holed healer. The fact remains that I love playing my druid. . .the way that I play him, not the way other people think I should. That will always be how I play, if people don't like it, they can take it to the LFG channel.

EDIT: Is it really that hard to type my name right when it's in the post right above yours? j/k

Nyte
01-11-2006, 12:42 PM
I enjoy healing. I always have. However, I'm just psyched that finally a game came out where druids are truly a force, the way nature is. I'm always a druid, ever since the days when my buddies and I bent the D&D rules so I could be a chaotic good druid. I always pick something up for a while, but then go back to the druid. However since D&D, druids have mostly been lame on any front but the healing/support side. Nature can support, nature can heal, however nature can also defend and deal some pretty wicked damage. Its good to see a game where the idea of nature as a thing not to get on the bad side of has come through.

Nyte (most un-treehugging treehugger around)

goa
01-11-2006, 02:54 PM
Druid arent by default healers. Just because most of ppl don't want to play healers doesn't mean you have to force the druid players to become one. Nuff said.

Rockwell
01-11-2006, 05:40 PM
Again tho' it's not a matter of what you want or don't want to do... it's a matter of what's most effective. Not wanting to be a healer or wanting to heal is almost inconsquential (granted someone who is hell bent against healing is not going to be an effective healer).

Group PvP is king of the PvP roost. The term 'War' itself imply's vast numbers of people... in that setting a druids most useful role to a group is healing and the best argument I've seen against it is "I don't want to heal"... nuff said.


Is it really that hard to type my name right when it's in the post right above yours? j/k

I'm afraid it is Fendicano, spelling has never been one of my strong points... I'm a pioneer in the re-working of the spelling of 'the' to 'teh' :physics:

goa
01-11-2006, 06:57 PM
Yes it matters what you want to do. As long as I pay for my account, I'll play my druid as i see fit, thank you.

swearword
01-16-2006, 10:05 AM
Well I am finally to level where I ahve left the sancuary of Auburdine and have begun to experience what some of you have been complaining about. I am a lvl 21 NE druid who was innocently questing in the Stone Talon Mountian area while I was fighting some mobs I was ganked by a lvl unknown warlock. I say lvl unknown because he was a skull to me I wrote it off ran back to my body and proceeded with my quest. when again I was fighting two mob and was one shotted at about half health by this warlock. I was whispering with a friend of mine who was shocked at this behavior and he quickly logged on as his 60 warrior to come escort me. As he was lvl 60 he was able to see that the warlock was also lvl 60. I guess I really did not have point, but to say that I now see what your chief complaints were about.

Also I had the question of why would a lvl 60 kill a lvl 21?? what is the point. anyway enough of my complaining.

Thanks for the great forum and all the great info you all have provided.

Bahroo
01-16-2006, 10:28 AM
That warlock got some issues. :] picked on, one too many times in skool, perhaps!

Nyte
01-16-2006, 01:10 PM
Seriously. Thats like a level 30 running around killing rabits. Yes the warlock has issues.

On a related note, what is the criteria for getting a DK? Is it only killing civillians? Or do you get one by killing too low level opponents?

Nyte

Anubrim
01-17-2006, 09:28 AM
Right now you only get DK's from civilians, which is stupid.

Last night a freind of mine was in Duskwood questing and kept getting ganked. Seems that there was a lvl 59 druid there that had been camping Raven Hill for a solid hour. Why I dont know, seems really stupid.

Anyways I headed that way and as soon as I got there sure enough there he was killing lowbies. Me being lvl 60 I prowled around until I found him in stealth looking for his next victim and then proceeded to rip him a new one. After his forth death over about an hour of me camping him he decided to leave.

From what I have notice the people that go to low level areas like that and greif people really suck against people there own level. Characters that are well known for being good at pvp dont really engage in that sort of worthless activity.

swearword
01-17-2006, 09:33 AM
Yeah that is what I saw when my lvl 60 friend took teh lock on.

what made me even more angry about the whole issue was he wouldn't engage until I was fighting at least 2 mob.

Just annoying and agravating.

I just went invisi kitty till my friend got there only coming out of stealth to kill.

Mojo
01-24-2006, 08:14 PM
52 Druid here... huzzah power to the nubs and whatnot... but the two thread above mine own kinda make me mad, we keep revisiting the old topic of..

YOU
ARE
IN
A
PVP
SERVER

My point is, people do that, they prey on weaker people cause it makes us angry and not want to play, personally, getting ganked makes me wanna level harder so when I next see gim I can /grin and rip his ass open so wide I could fit a troupe of boyscouts in there. We all came to a PvP server like.. wow weze gunna killza people, but no.. its weza gunna get killed 1000 times over then cry! AND I SAY NAY! Trust me from experience, it feels good to get revenge. More often than not, the person that griefs you is probably gettin revenge for someone greifing them, and that makes you want to grief, and your griefed will grief anoterh griefed grief to grief the grief griefer! Understand? Get to my level, even against a 60 I can hold my own in a fight, I might not win but they go home saying wow that Ghosts is so sexy.

swearword
01-25-2006, 09:38 AM
Yes I understand that I am in a PVP server. Yes it is annoying to get killed which irritates me. What really irritated me the most was a) he was 40 lvls higher than me b) he would not even take me one on one he would wait till I was fighting mobs than attack. I came to a PVP server to enjoy the game and have good competition with the other faction. I have no problems getting killed by someone even within ten lvls of me. What pisses me off and causes me to post is when a lvl 60 on a power trip comes into a lowbie area just to kill people 40 lvls under him. If thats crying I suppose I am a cry baby than forgive me for thinking that blizzard had a reason for giving a honorable kill to someone like that. HMMM maybe because it is not Honorable and they want to discourage just maybe.

Claritondeus
01-25-2006, 01:53 PM
Just curious, What faction was the 60 that was killing all the lowbies?

Sounds like something that the no-class horde would do on my server. No talent assclowns, the lot of them.

Rockwell
01-25-2006, 02:25 PM
Just curious, What faction was the 60 that was killing all the lowbies?

Sounds like something that the no-class horde would do on my server. No talent assclowns, the lot of them.

Please save narrow-minded faction bashing for worldofwarcraft.com forums... I think you'll find a home there.

swearword
01-25-2006, 02:33 PM
He was Horde, but I have heard of or seen Alliance doing the same I don't think it is faction specific just maturity lvl specific if you know what I mean.

Claritondeus
01-25-2006, 06:10 PM
Please save narrow-minded faction bashing for worldofwarcraft.com forums... I think you'll find a home there.

I dont think you need to call me narrow minded, tell me where to go or what to do.

Atrus
01-25-2006, 06:28 PM
This is funny - both factions have 60's that kill lowbies.

To say that one side is always completely honorable is :bs:

Rockwell
01-25-2006, 06:59 PM
I dont think you need to call me narrow minded, tell me where to go or what to do.

I didn't call you narrow minded, I called your statement narrow minded... now one might assume that narrow minded people make narrow minded statements... but I'm willing to leave that judgement to others. :eusa_booh

Claritondeus
01-25-2006, 07:08 PM
This is funny - both factions have 60's that kill lowbies.

To say that one side is always completely honorable is :bs:

I didn't say that Alliance didn't do this. I was just making an anti-horde statement. Being a Night Elf Druid, I feel that by nature I am entitled to dislike horde.

I am not interested in hearing how honorable the horde is, nor in defending the alliance. I just don't like the horde on my server. I suppose if I did, I'd play rp or pve and make nice with them and to to org and /dance. Seeing how Darkshire is mostly an alliance area, I assumed the one griefing was horde. This assumption turned out to be correct.

goa
01-26-2006, 07:16 AM
Please save narrow-minded faction bashing for worldofwarcraft.com forums... I think you'll find a home there.

Dude. It's just a game.

gwmort
01-26-2006, 11:38 AM
I got pissed this morning...

I was trying to make another stab at the Gurubashi arena to get the trinket. I'm only level 43, and when I get up there there are 3 lvl 60 mages waiting. I inspect them and joke that I bet so and so is going to get it.

then one of the others whispers me and says that he and the other less well equipped are teamed and they don't want to get the chest, just do a lot of killing, and if I keep healing them during the battle, they will let me loot the chest.

I think that is great, and join their party. The chest drops, the fighting starts, one of my party members gets killed lickity split, I rez him, we kill everyone else off with me dropping heals burning all my mana, then the lvl 60 mages drop from the group and kill me and a warrior they had also duped.

I was angry. At them for double crossing me, and at myself for trusting them. I didn't start spamming obscenities or anything but when I rezzed I told them they had no honor, and used the rude gesture emote then moved on.

Falloraan
01-26-2006, 02:41 PM
When I was younger I played D&D and had a subscription to Dragon magazine. I can't remember if it was the picture on the cover or the back of the magazine, but I'll never forget it. It was in black and white, or maybe monochrome, and it showed a guy slumped over in a pool of blood, and another guy sneaking off. The caption was, "There is no honor among thieves." Your story made me think of that :)

Rockwell
01-26-2006, 07:51 PM
I started this thread because I was tired of see'n Feral builds listed as 'pvp builds'. While 0/30/21 is indeed a strong duel'n/1vs1 build and a decent group pvp'er.... a resto spec'ed druid is king of the pvp hill. In a best of the best group, Resto brings more to the table and is the stronger build.

The only argument but forth by most feral's is "don't tell me how to play", which was never my intention. I was just pointing out which is the best build, and that most people are dead wrong when they list feral or balance builds as PvP.

Somewhere along the line this thread became a 'airing of pvp grievences' dunno why. The attitude of some of those people reminds me of the mountains of crap that make up the WoW.com Forums. Every time I check those forums it's the same'ol same'ol.... people don't know how the pvp system works, don't think out-side the box, don't realize they're just pandering to their own bruised ego's more then providing anything remotly useful or intresting.


P.S. Falloraan - You sure that image wasn't in the AD&D Player's Handbook?

Falloraan
01-26-2006, 10:32 PM
Hmm, it could have been. We're talking about 25 years ago, my memory could be offa touch ;)

Anubrim
01-28-2006, 10:07 AM
I started this thread because I was tired of see'n Feral builds listed as 'pvp builds'. While 0/30/21 is indeed a strong duel'n/1vs1 build and a decent group pvp'er.... a resto spec'ed druid is king of the pvp hill. In a best of the best group, Resto brings more to the table and is the stronger build.

The only argument but forth by most feral's is "don't tell me how to play", which was never my intention. I was just pointing out which is the best build, and that most people are dead wrong when they list feral or balance builds as PvP.

Somewhere along the line this thread became a 'airing of pvp grievences' dunno why. The attitude of some of those people reminds me of the mountains of crap that make up the WoW.com Forums. Every time I check those forums it's the same'ol same'ol.... people don't know how the pvp system works, don't think out-side the box, don't realize they're just pandering to their own bruised ego's more then providing anything remotly useful or intresting.


P.S. Falloraan - You sure that image wasn't in the AD&D Player's Handbook?

Ya good points rock. your thread did kind of get side tracked.
Im a feral spec. druid however I never refer to feral as being "the" pvp spec.. Its all really just a matter of playstyle and preference. Is one build superior to the other? Hell I dont know, I think it depends on the person behind the character really.

On a side note now that I have finished my pvp rank grind, reached Lt. Commander, and have started doing MC and Onyxia raids I am actually considering changing back to resto for the healing efficiency. Havent really decided yet but I am considering it.

I may keep leveling my paladin and pvp with him, only because the hordlings hate pallies so much...hehe

Angelrage
01-29-2006, 03:11 AM
I started this thread because I was tired of see'n Feral builds listed as 'pvp builds'. While 0/30/21 is indeed a strong duel'n/1vs1 build and a decent group pvp'er.... a resto spec'ed druid is king of the pvp hill. In a best of the best group, Resto brings more to the table and is the stronger build.

The only argument but forth by most feral's is "don't tell me how to play", which was never my intention. I was just pointing out which is the best build, and that most people are dead wrong when they list feral or balance builds as PvP.

Somewhere along the line this thread became a 'airing of pvp grievences' dunno why. The attitude of some of those people reminds me of the mountains of crap that make up the WoW.com Forums. Every time I check those forums it's the same'ol same'ol.... people don't know how the pvp system works, don't think out-side the box, don't realize they're just pandering to their own bruised ego's more then providing anything remotly useful or intresting.


P.S. Falloraan - You sure that image wasn't in the AD&D Player's Handbook?


if one thing is apparant, its that you refuse to change your mind; which is fine, its good that some1 out there speaks up for resto. Its also humorous when followed by your complaints of others not thinking outside of the box. I dont intend on changing your mind, but maybe you havent considered some of these things, or have and are just too far down on this path to turn back, but this is how i see it (my opinion).

It is your opinion (as opposed to actual fact) that the result of the first rush determines the game to a large extent (or at least that was the message you portrayed to me, the reader). I think what it does is show how well each offence group would do against the other offence group if they were to say, run at each other... Flags win games.

It is your opinion, not facts, that resto brings the most to the table. It is your opinion, not facts, that a group is better off with a druid healing. In many cases, this is true. Particulary for nubes running in PuGs or low level BG's where no1 is healing at all. Heals are awesome (<-my opinion), and they can make a group more effective, but they are not the only major element in pvp.

if 2 priests and a druid cannot heal fast enough too keep their damage dealing teamates (or more realisticaly, themsevles) from being gunned down by the opposing teams mage rogue hunter and feral-druid assist train, which druid is a better pvp druid?

last time i checked, a heal never killed anyone, and you cant win if the other team doesnt die (well, i guess you could.. its all about the flags/stations, but from what i understand your claiming resto is the best for pvp becuase its the best in the first rush). That feral druid who rocked the opposing teams priest just gave his team a huge advantage, you are now down a healer. Who is the better pvp druid, the feral that killed the priest or the druid who is trying to heal whats left of his disadvantaged team?

Now when your dead becuase that feral druid saw you healing and opened up on you, shifting out of your grasp, stunned you, and is staying on your ass with a feline swiftness while your punching for a Bear-shift or kitty-sprint buton, and maybe even his buddy boosted by LotP critted on you, who is the better pvp druid?

if for instance, a balanced group is 2 healers and 3 dps'rs, and you choose to be the second healer, you have done just as much good as the druid on the other team who instead played dps and killed you (and if he kills you before you really contribute to a fight, youve actually done much less for your team than he has for his). The Shield is not more important than the Sword, nor vice versa.


:iamwithst It is stupid to say that an additional healer is more important to your group than a fast moving unrootable feral charging dps'r, or vice versa. A heal that saves a life does not exceed the value of the damage that brought that life down. None of your points prove otherwise.


Now you could say, and would be correct in saying, that the druid is capable of healing for more damage than he can put out, but that would be to overlook that you cannot continue to do so while a feral druid is pouncing all over you, or a hunter or any1 at all feels like interrupting your hard work, whereas that has no effect on the damage output of the druid who has gone melee. It doesnt take into account that rage and energy outlast mana, and it doesnt take into account how much of your healing is wasted becuase you cannot heal for more than the total life of your target (ie crit HT, a regen ticing on some1 whose at full health and not taking more hits, etc), and also assuming that the feral druid is not spending anytime helping heal his team or himself.

A feral druid can bring damage (and unrelentingly so), roots, stuns, ressurections and heals to his group.
In albiet different amounts in different areas, a resto druid brings the exact same thing.

Who woulda thought?

"If you wanna pvp feral and take the time to make groups that have other people providing the heals... by all means go ahead. If you wanna win and would rather get invited to established/winning pvp groups... give resto a whirl~

The books been thrown son, I hope you got your ducking shows on."

who exactly doesnt take the time to make a group with designated healers? The only point youve made is that there are more damage dealers than healers, and becuase of this, you as resto are more sought after by those who dont happen to have their own healers online.

The books been caught kid, and put back on the shelf. :epopcorn:

Rockwell
01-29-2006, 07:28 PM
Oh, 4 pages and we finally have some debate. I'm pretty good from picking apart facts and opinions.... but I'm not intrested in getting a doctorate in WoW, so we're not going to have firm statics on hand.

Little off topic, but I do like to go in order, I do believe it is a fact that the first push in AB determines the winner. Almost every game I've been in this has been the case... even when it's two skilled teams going at it. It's easier to defend then capture, and teams that know to watch for cappers are even harder to cap agains.

It's very very very rare that two priests and a druid can't out heal damage done. Earlier today I couldn't out heal 5 alliance killing the flag carrier solo' if two priest had been there it'd been gravey... but they weren't. Let's pretend I was feral... how'd that save the day? I don't think putting forth a scenario that neither feral or resto could really make a differnece in does much for either argument.

Now I think I see about this 'first push thing', I feel for you, it was alot to read. I brought up first push because it so easily shot Goa's "sneaking up on casters is great" thing to pieces. I do feel first push is important, but resto out-paces feral in group pvp for almost every fight. I don't see feral druids 'rocking priests' I'm sure it happens, but it is the exception to the rule and by the time you sneak around to'm I'd be suprised if he hadn't already done alot of healing.

I've never been solo'ed by a feral druid. They try, just like the moonfire spammers... I love it to pieces. Full on DPS druids are the easiest to kill... the only 60 druid I killed in under 30seconds was a moonkin... no nature's focus is a sure fire loss. I've been killed with a druid on me, but it's a hunter/mage/warlock/rogue that really did the killing.

Heals that save lives Exceed the damage done, particularly when it that damage was done with blown cool downs. So a feral druid takes 10 seconds to cross a field stealthed, then pop's out and gets a nasty ravage for let's pretend 1700, then is working on a 3pt FB to hopefully drop a caster (altho a mage prob blinks, warlock/priest prob fear, druid drops a root/sleep (I love waste'n feral druids mana with roots)) I drop a 3 second cast HT that lands for 2k'ish health. I win cause I can drop those 2k heals anytime i want, the feral druid can't re-stealth. I win cause I didn't waste time setting up to do that damage....

It's dawned on me, that you think maybe I'm saying don't go feral form... just heal. That's not it at all... I'm saying we can't respec daily or before each group we enter. Usually the best we can do is swap gear for what we think we need to do and trust we have enough experience to be right. So we have to come up with a build that works best for several situations and what's needed. Resto is > then feral for that reason. Innverate, NS, Critical Regrowth, Gift of nature are all quite powerful in PvP. HoTW is ok, and the damage boosts are ok... but not really all that powerful.

There are going to be times when a feral or even moonkin would be better off then a resto... but that's a fraction of the time. Druids are hybrid and prob the best 'jack of all trades' great for doing 'whatever's needed', but alot of druids seem to think that means 'doing whatever I want to do'. Just cause you want to play kitty and do a decent amount of damage doesn't make it needed. Where as the significant shortage of healers (and healers that do actually heal) makes healin' a much more 'needed' role.

A druids damage isn't unrelenting. Mana and health bring'm down just like everyone else. We can't be sheeped or rooted, but we can be hibernated, we can be fear beast'ed and breaking roots can be tough on the mana pool. Let's still not forget we have two of the worst CC's in the game, where all other damage classes have more useful/real CC.

Lot's of teams don't make groups before entering battle grounds. I'd never single queue, and I don't usually join groups that shout for members in /4. I can see tho' from the quality of my oppostion and the gripes on the msg. boards that other people don't do as I do. Even with pre-made's, it's odd to have a group with too many healers... just doesn't happen nearly as much as a group with too many dps'ers. I'm very open to playing as what's needed and I use my feral forms alot...

This book is staying off the shelf till' people quit playing WoW or there's only one tree to spec' 1.8 made it so feral druids aren't a complete laughing stock... and 30/21 is a good build, awsome 1vs1. Still tho' healing is our strongest point and by and away the most needed... give'n the clear edge to resto' builds.

Just for fun here's the cloest I've seen to a zero kill win'.

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/1571/almost0hk2na.jpg

goa
01-30-2006, 10:01 AM
Rockwell needs a girlfriend methinks.

Everyone that doesnt agree with him is "narrowminded".. says the dude that tells other players that his way is the only way because it's "most effenctive". Lol - anyone?

I'm so fed up with wow elitists it's really getting to my head. I know it shouldn't but.. sometimes It does. :(

Oh.. never forget the stupid smileys he burns. It really makes him "win" debates (his own words).

Rockwell
01-30-2006, 06:18 PM
Oh to be like Goa and rely on personal insults and 'I'll do what I want' to win debates.

I don't know you Goa, go ahead and do what you want :texla:

Yrys
01-30-2006, 08:12 PM
Mod warning:

... the usual.

C'mon guys, avoid the personal attacks please. Be respectful of your fellow posters, even if you don't see eye to eye. That means everyone.

Macen
01-31-2006, 09:58 AM
Your arguments certainly are convincing, though you do, as everyone else, portray things the way you want, you paint the picture that with the same colors as the others, but you don't paint the entire picture, partialy because it is to great to describe
in a couple of pages, and partialy because it make your points
clearer. So ill try to add to that picture.
Many of you talk of how you switch gear according to the situation, but last time i checked, you cant while in combat, so
a lot of times you wont get to change. And therefore, a restro-druid can't just shift to cat form and deal much damage, he can still change to bear and get a load of armor, but the stam and the armor will still be inferior to that of the feral druid. If you only have restro druids, there will be no druids who can do decent dps, because, lets face it, a feral druid will do, i dont know the exact mats, but say, twice the damage, and it still wont be much. Neither can that druid stun/lock or kite. And of a restro druid gets targeted, especially by a rouge, he will, if the rouge is competent, die.
This is ofc just my opinion, and if I have missinformed you I am terribly sorry, and welcome your critcs. And please overlook my spellingmistakes.

goa
01-31-2006, 10:16 AM
Oh to be like Goa and rely on personal insults and 'I'll do what I want' to win debates.

I don't know you Goa, go ahead and do what you want :texla:

Thanks. but really.. i didn't need your approval to do that. Sorry to disappoint you. :texla: :texla:

Edit: Yay! look at my cool smiley! its green and smiling. :D

gwmort
01-31-2006, 12:29 PM
I think the key to playing a hybrid in groups is not to "main" anything. Be the off-healer or the off-tank, or the healer for the off-tank and when he's doing fine rip some dps.

Ghost Bear
01-31-2006, 12:55 PM
I'd just like to say that I think "pissing" thread was coined by me:cool: See part of my post from back in Dec of last year opening with:



"IF we really wanted to get into a pissing match I could just as easily say HOTW > Innervate for PVP since HOTW can't be purged and is really the only true hybrid talent we have (read as it is the only talent that 100% boosts all of our forms). I guess if you are horde though this matter is moot."



Since it seems most of you are horde on this site, I guess none of that matters to you, but if you are alliance its still true. Innervate is useless in PVP where a shaman is present. Given shaman make up the top 3rd or 4th most played horde class on most servers its certain there will be at least one per WSG usually more. So against a set up team, yeah try to innervate. Well you could hit it then run. But then your not really helping your team now are you?



Anyways, its funny how this topic keeps coming up. This site is the only place I still read where the resto law is still etched into the druid commandments. I've been on this site for a good year or so now I think, though I post rarely. But I think the only really long standing feral poster here is Crimson13. Most just get run off by the constant everything other than resto bashing that has been taken place here over the past year I have been reading. Which sucks because there has been some good info brought in this site, but its muddled by all the elitism which plagues this game.



Anyways the fact that there are still arguements over which spec is better shows that there are still people who don't understand the point of this game, or the point of a hybrid. Go ahead and heal for that extra 10% that X/X/31+ gives you over a X/31+/X, guess what that shaman over there can still have a talent to boost crit damage by 100%. Or you X/31+/X can do all your damage you can pull out but well, not when you just got beast feared.



PVP has so little do with spec anymore its rediculous. A warlock can have +500 or more damage to their casting and guess what, they have 9 different common specs to use every bit of it. A shaman with Herald of Woe is still a shaman, they all still have windfury regardless of spec. A warrior with Sulferas is still going to pound you into bits if there is someone tossing them a heal, regardless of spec. I say unless someone is aiding them because that's what matters. What you do with other players. That is regardless of spec. Last time I checked my feral druid still had Regrowth and Healing Touch. In fact I use 4 hotbars while playing and one of them is totally dedicated to healing and the other humanoid bar (nuking) has heal placed strategically for ease of reach in an emergency situation. Last time I checked a restoration druid could still use cat/bear as well.

You know, I'd like to think that I usually post decent posts. Don't post that often, but I don't think that anything I post is really confrontational. However this time I will make exception. If it means that Yrys removes my posting priveledges so be it.

This thread really is disgusting. It has no use, no fulfilling purpose. Read the open post, its just a matter really to spite another poster. It really wouldn't have been that bad of a post, actually pretty insightful. Except one sentence at the very end shows the arrogance of the poster crystal clear, "The books been thrown son, I hope you got your ducking shoes on."

For someone who has shown they possess a measureable level of intelligence Rockwell has really shown himself in quite a negative light. You really have some good points but the fact is you are full of it sometimes. Is it really necessary to prop yourself up by starting a thread up that was shut down for a reason? Only to try to further portray your supposed superiority?

When was it ever necessary to go on about your rank? This is one of those arrogant signs I was talking about. Yeah maybe your skill was questioned but showboating isn't really the way to go about rekindling face.

By the way comments like "kind of the PVP hill" yeah thats just a bit over. Do you honest to god think that your insight into a spec has anything to do with that? I'm glad you have a great PVP team that can protect you while you heal but that doesn't make your allocation of virtual power any measureable amount better than someone else. I wonder if you tell your guildies that they are so successful because of your leet heals?

Like its been said, you paint a nice picture for yourself. But its hardly the full landscape.

But I'm not just pointing you out. Goa, just drop this crap. You aren't representing Feral druids in a positive light either. I understand why you are pissed. I've been hearing it since November of 2004. But you aren't helping the matter by flying off at Rock. And your comments can be just as low. There is no reason for cheap shots. And a lot of the heat you brought on yourself.

That's all I got to say about individuals. I learned a long time ago that people who like to toot their own horn are full of it. I've never had a real problem with anyone on here, nothing I'd take personally anyways. But really neither of you are exactly showing your best colors.

Rock: You seem to know something about what you play. Why are you so bent on crucifying Restoration as the be all and end all of the game? Why aren't you using what you know to help the rest of this forum with advancing, and thus advancing your class? And doing that has nothing to do with bashing a spec down. Good healing is good healing, if you know how to do it then you have something to teach regardless of yours or anyone elses spec.

Goa: Stop with trying to champion the cause of the feral druid, just play the game man. Yeah I know its crap the way feral and balance druids have been treated in this game. But that's life yeah. You know, if you are truly good at it, then those around you WILL see it. And you will be able to do the things you like to do. As far as this site goes, this site has always been pro healer. That's the way it has always been. For a while Crimson was probably the only druid to openly speak about feral viability. Anyone who came to this site claiming to have put feral to good use was nearly instantly shot down. Credit was never given, it was just, "yeah but you would have done much more if you were restoration." You aren't going to change anyones mind here by attacking their ideals.

If you really want to help the feral community, do so with those that are growing. I can't count how many posts I've replied in from a new druid asking about feral gear, or which talent is better for leveling, granted I can be feral biased, but don't dis the restoration guys.

A lot of people talk about how the other forums are immature and the like, but to be honest that stuff is just as present here it seems.

We all play the same class here you know. Why is this bickering between specs so persistant. Why aren't the resto druids trying to support the guys that chose to go against the grain. Because the other classes certainly aren't going to. We threaten their place in the game. So if you guys aren't there to lend an ear, no one will be. So you're sick of hearing "Feral is the PVP spec?" Well I'm sick of hearing Restoration > * Just play your game and if you don't want anything to do with us, kindly leave us alone and we'll do the same.

And to all the feral, stop acting like you're top dog. Leader of the Pack is just the name of the talent, it doesn't imply anything. Yeah its fun, but it has its place.

No talent is better than any other. I don't care what rank you are, what your opinion is, it doesn't matter. The trees were designed for flexibility. A 30/21 druid will have most of the nice healing talents that a 20/31 can get. The exceptions being Gift of Nat. and Imp. Regrowth. And a 20/31 druid can still get Feral charge, brutal impact, Fel. Swift, Sharp Claws. The exception being Savage Fury and the big bad HOTW. And neither can get the nice balance stuff. But then that's a whole different thread.

Gear has reached the point that it overcomes the set backs imposed by talents which used to be present. And even with this ,due to the way druids interact with gear; plain and simple skill is the most important part. And a good team > *. A balanced team with average gear and strategy with good means of communication is the most important aspect of PVP. As druids we are designed to fill in multiple holes. That's what a hybrid is. As hybrids our base class is quite strong, hybrids use less from talents than other classes. That's you know, part of being a hybrid, being able to perform multiple functions inherently.

But yeah infighting does nothing to promote OUR class. Emphasis on OUR, because ALL of us are druids. Why is it so hard to work together? Especially when hybrids do that so well...um...together.

Anyways I was more aggrevated when I started this post, but now I'm calmed down. Have a nice day:wiggle:

swearword
01-31-2006, 01:13 PM
Wow, well put.

Thank you

Ghost Bear

goa
01-31-2006, 03:26 PM
HotW > Every other druid talent \o/ The whole game is based around stats, nuff said. :)

Claritondeus
01-31-2006, 06:28 PM
With regards to innervate being useless in pvp for alliance, can it be dispelled by priests?

Cause this would lead me to believe that innervate is almost useless on both ends... purely an instance talent. A nice one at that, but one that can be dispelled. HoTW +20%intel cannot be dispelled by any class.

Nice Post, Ghost.

Ghost Bear
01-31-2006, 11:26 PM
With regards to innervate being useless in pvp for alliance, can it be dispelled by priests?

Cause this would lead me to believe that innervate is almost useless on both ends... purely an instance talent. A nice one at that, but one that can be dispelled. HoTW +20%intel cannot be dispelled by any class.

Nice Post, Ghost.


I always thought it did. I heard a couple people say it didn't but I think they are probably :bs:

Either way I have no intention to make a priest to find out.

Really though most decent priests are too busy healing to know what an enemy has on. That and trying to cover their back side from rogue gankage. But shaman on the other hand can be up in the thick of battle, and more often than not are doing dps. So they have more control of enemy buffs.

That and (at least on my server) there are probably more shaman than alliance/horde priests combined.

Anyways the arguement Innervate vs HOTW is kinda false. Because that not really an arguement, of course HOTW > Innervate. The real arguement is more like:
Moonkin vs LOTP vs Innervate (party support talents), and

Nature's Grace/Moonfury vs HOTW vs Gift of Nature/Imp. Regrowth. I think this is the more valid arguement and at least the tougher to decide a clear winner. I leave out NS because a 30/21 build of either feral or balance can still get it.

While I think about it though, it might be kinda fun to play with a 20/0/31 build for long time nuking. Then healing if you got to party, but mostly for nuking:cool: Still can get vengeance and N.reach but miss out on Moonglow/N.grace/moonfury.

gwmort
02-01-2006, 09:19 AM
I agree with Ghost Bear's sentiment, because as a balance druid I get it from resto and feral. I kind of like the idea of trying to make something work that others have given up on, and requires some skill and ingenuity to adjust to a new playstyle.

However, I think you need to be more thick-skinned. The top resto druids know from their experience what works for them. They leveled up long before 1.8 made the other builds more viable, so take their advice with a grain of perspective. Also, the longer standing guilds got the end game instances on farm status using druids a certain way (heal/innervate) and there will be a certian amount of inertia to convince the community at large that they should all adjust to our different play styles.

Find a style that works for you, and most importantly, that you enjoy. A druid is a druid, we will all heal, we will all use animal forms, we will all cast MF, the specs just allow you to have some fun enhancing the parts you enjoy more. It really is about teamwork and playing with others. No matter how elite you think you are or may become, there is no single player on any server, of any class or spec, that is better than a group of similarly leveled individuals. I am often amazed at how my own stats suddenly jump in a group and I start getting buffs from the other classes. What does it matter if MoW is the best buff when the net effect of several classes buffs makes it such a small part of the net effect.

Get over it, its just a game, go ride your bike.

Anubrim
02-01-2006, 09:36 AM
I will not quote that monster post...hehe....but very well said Ghost.

This thread is like something you will see on the wow forums all the time, and thats bad.

Rockwell
02-01-2006, 06:56 PM
Intresting post Ghostbear, I can see where your comming from with calling out my 'show boating' and quasi-attacks. Just to appreciate where I'm comming from I've been comming here for about ~6months or so. In that time I seem to have come to the opposite opinion.. most post seem to be pro-feral and plenty of their posts are littered with casual insults towards healers or healing.

I don't recall mentioning being rank 10 per say' but I suspect it wasn't bragging, but pointing out I have 1)experience 2)have some of the better feral gear in the game 3)have had success ranking up with a resto build. I think all flames and attacks were kept rather low'down.

The book's been thrown thing was just funny to me. :clap:

This issue isn't going to go away aslong as there are three seperate tree's to spec. There's alot of truth to the statement "separate is inherently unequal". It's not my ambition to say in every situation Resto is the best and feral is a worthless spec. It is my intent to show that Resto is the better spec' over-all and in the end edges out Feral spec in both pvp and pve.

As for Shaman Vs. Innervate... that is indeed is an alliance problem. It's a 'when to use it' thing and I've dueled a ton of shaman who don't dispell... while there might be a shaman in the BG, there's not always gonna be a shaman in your face (or a priest for that matter). For that matter, let's not forget warlock felhunters... got one on you and NS and Inv go out the window.

As you yourself said, it's not just about innverate vs hotw or lotp... it's about the tree's themselves. GoN and Crit Regrowth and even the buy-in for innervate, that's name is escaping me atm, are all worthy talents regardless of innervate.

As for my guild... I dunno where you got the idea that I said I'm the single most important element in my guild (I think good leaders, regardless of class or spec are the most important thing just FYI). Matter of fact 85% of the time I don't pvp with my guild... most of my pvp time is spent with best aviable player pugs. As for them, I think the priority I got getting into groups speaks of my contribution to the group... when there's a list of 20 players and your in next round... kinda makes you feel appreciated.

I have as much to do with my survival as anyone else does. It sure helps to have people that understand and use CC, it helps to know the other healers in your group are gonna be healing and not trying to force weak-sauce DPS. In the end I'm very much capable of thwarting would be attackers, rooting, basing, healing through damage... learning how to avoid un-wanted agro.

In all honesty, I agree that it's not as much what you spec as what you do with it. In game I work with what's aviable.. but if I know a fellow druid is 'cat spec'ed' then I will try and avoid'm like the plague.

gwmort
02-01-2006, 10:38 PM
In all honesty, I agree that it's not as much what you spec as what you do with it.

Amen

Ghost Bear
02-01-2006, 11:32 PM
"Just to appreciate where I'm comming from I've been comming here for about ~6months or so. In that time I seem to have come to the opposite opinion.. most post seem to be pro-feral and plenty of their posts are littered with casual insults towards healers or healing."

I'm sorry you feel that way, what can I say noobs come in all shapes and sizes.


"I don't recall mentioning being rank 10 per say' but I suspect it wasn't bragging, but pointing out I have 1)experience 2)have some of the better feral gear in the game 3)have had success ranking up with a resto build. I think all flames and
attacks were kept rather low'down."

These weren't your reasons at all. My comment on this goes back to the other thread. You were called out, wrongfully so but your image was threatened. So you posted your rank and standing and then called out the credibility of Goa. Your intent was to argue him by belittling his rank, which is evident from the fact you said you looked for him on the census but didn't see him. What he said was wrong but dont think your words are any more noble.

I'm glad you "appreciate" my point of view but excuse me when I question your sincerety when you post comments like:

"It's not my ambition to say in every situation Resto is the best and feral is a worthless spec. It is my intent to show that Resto is the better spec' over-all and in the end edges out Feral spec in both pvp and pve."

To what gain? What do you or anyone else stand to gain from this arguement? The only thing is another inch on your e-peen. This is stupid. All it comes down to is people with egos that want everyone to think that they or something they did was the best. You in no way help promote the image of Druids with constant arguing.


"In all honesty, I agree that it's not as much what you spec as what you do with it."

In all honesty I agree with this. But...

"In game I work with what's aviable.. but if I know a fellow druid is 'cat spec'ed' then I will try and avoid'm like the plague."

Again you show your colors with cheap shots like this. For the record there is no such thing as "cat specced" anymore. Every talent that helps cat also enhances bear. And agility is also one of the most important stats for bear tanks FYI. At any rate for PVP the most prepared druids I have ever played with were the ones that came in all hybridized, regardless of their spec. In fact one of them is about to hit GM on my server. Will be the first druid there to do so. Druid powa :sumo:

Now if you are talking about druids who run around in cat to the exclusion of everything else the class can do, then well they are just crappy druids. You don't have to spec for that. I know of balance druids that run around in feral gear, feral druids that can't heal and resto druids that never bother to shift and armor up in bear or cat form cower because they made it to 60 and still don't understand that a dead druid doesn't help anybody.


"HotW > Every other druid talent \o/ "--Goa

Fo Shizzle! :texla: I wish though it was higher up on the tree though honestly. Its only the best because its the only talent that amplifies druid regardless of whatever they are doing and enhances whatever weakness we may have in our gear at the same time. As such, I feel it should be more available to druids regardless of spec, because as hybrids this is really the essence of what we do. Either that or place a similar talent in every tree maybe with a slight shift on emphasis to the trees specialty.

"However, I think you need to be more thick-skinned. The top resto druids know from their experience what works for them."--gwmort

Totally. But at the same time I still think that no one really gains from these arguements. My only real peev right now is that a thread that was shut down for a reason was needlessly re-opened in effort to continue %&%$*ing. :deadhorse

Anyways I'm done posting in a thread I keep saying I don't agree with. I've said too much as is.


This right here says it all:
"Dont be a cat. Dont be a bear. Dont be a caster. BE A DRUID!" -- Anubrim

I'm going to go look for the talent tree that says Druid at the top.

Rainlight
02-02-2006, 06:08 PM
:clap:

Rockwell
02-03-2006, 07:28 PM
...
"I don't recall mentioning being rank 10 per say' but I suspect it wasn't bragging, but pointing out I have 1)experience 2)have some of the better feral gear in the game 3)have had success ranking up with a resto build. I think all flames and
attacks were kept rather low'down."

These weren't your reasons at all. My comment on this goes back to the other thread. You were called out, wrongfully so but your image was threatened. So you posted your rank and standing and then called out the credibility of Goa. Your intent was to argue him by belittling his rank, which is evident from the fact you said you looked for him on the census but didn't see him. What he said was wrong but dont think your words are any more noble.

I'm glad you "appreciate" my point of view but excuse me when I question your sincerety when you post comments like:

"It's not my ambition to say in every situation Resto is the best and feral is a worthless spec. It is my intent to show that Resto is the better spec' over-all and in the end edges out Feral spec in both pvp and pve."

To what gain? What do you or anyone else stand to gain from this arguement? The only thing is another inch on your e-peen. This is stupid. All it comes down to is people with egos that want everyone to think that they or something they did was the best. You in no way help promote the image of Druids with constant arguing.

....

"In game I work with what's aviable.. but if I know a fellow druid is 'cat spec'ed' then I will try and avoid'm like the plague."

Again you show your colors with cheap shots like this. For the record there is no such thing as "cat specced" anymore. Every talent that helps cat also enhances bear. And agility is also one of the most important stats for bear tanks FYI. At any rate for PVP the most prepared druids I have ever played with were the ones that came in all hybridized, regardless of their spec. In fact one of them is about to hit GM on my server. Will be the first druid there to do so. Druid powa :sumo:

Now if you are talking about druids who run around in cat to the exclusion of everything else the class can do, then well they are just crappy druids. You don't have to spec for that. I know of balance druids that run around in feral gear, feral druids that can't heal and resto druids that never bother to shift and armor up in bear or cat form cower because they made it to 60 and still don't understand that a dead druid doesn't help anybody.


"HotW > Every other druid talent \o/ "--Goa

Fo Shizzle! :texla: I wish though it was higher up on the tree though honestly. Its only the best because its the only talent that amplifies druid regardless of whatever they are doing and enhances whatever weakness we may have in our gear at the same time. As such, I feel it should be more available to druids regardless of spec, because as hybrids this is really the essence of what we do. Either that or place a similar talent in every tree maybe with a slight shift on emphasis to the trees specialty.


True enough... I re-read the first thread and I did indeed post my rank to rub it in goa's nose. It worked too... now I see why he hates the smiley guys :elfbiggri For real tho' the whole pvp issue was brought up in the thread because of the common misconception that resto' isn't a pvp build. As said before, I'm bringing this up to not only show that resto is a pvp build, but the best. To what gain? I dunno, maybe someone who thought healing in PvP didn't earn you anything will learn somthing... I don't claim nobility or purpose or soul... just that I'm right.

I don't claim a cat spec or even would ever of thought of spec'n for our weakest role, I'm just saying i hear it in game and see it on the boards. I also see it in games where you only see a certain druid in cat' form (true enough you see the moonkinspammers and even resto' that don't understand how to use stealth in BG).

HoTW is nice, but it's not the best talent we have and it's clearly not better then the sum of other talents aviable. It's not that unique when you think about it... it's the only talent that helps feral's be casters. Resto has 2 feral talents and several talents that could be used for balance, Balance has a few melee/feral talents and serveral talents that could be used for resto'

I could keep debating this, I don't think it was a 'needless' topic. The original thread was shut down because of the hijack'n/degree of personal attacks levied by some of the less articulate posters... the mod suggested it here and here we are. Sorry it gives you a headache, but this horse is gonna run till WoW dies.

Ittles
02-05-2006, 04:15 AM
Please save narrow-minded faction bashing for worldofwarcraft.com forums... I think you'll find a home there.


LOL...Why don't we change that around a little bit...

Please save narrow-minded "feral" bashing for worldofwarcraft.com forums... I think you'll find a home there. :texla: (just messing with you)

Ok, on a more serious note...I found this website to be very informative for me since my first character ever in WoW is a druid (1/21/06), but when people post their opinions on a certain race/spec/style/etc... the facts somehow get swept under the rug and it does one of two things.

#1 It turns people away and they dismiss anything that could've been productive and informative in that post.

OR

#2 It has a snowball effect of everyone arguing about their own experiences and opinions and that's when we see the actual facts get thrown out the window(if i may use another analogy).

So with that said, Rockwell, you seem like you have a lot to offer someone like me who has just started playing the game and is still trying to decide what spec to roll with, instead of arguing with someone who simply chose to take a different path. Not only that, but I would like to see people post things about the feral spec, other than the usual "Feral spec is so much better than resto because we can still heal...blah blah blah". Please...just some cold-hard facts.

So, I think(opinion) that if we do want to argue or debate certain things about the game we should take the time to post the actual facts in the very beginning of our posts before adding any personal opinion or flavor to the mix in additional paragraphs.

Thank you for your time and I hope something good can come out of this post.

Ghost Bear
02-05-2006, 11:38 AM
Not only that, but I would like to see people post things about the feral spec, other than the usual "Feral spec is so much better than resto because we can still heal...blah blah blah". Please...just some cold-hard facts.




The whole point I was trying to make Ittles, was that there is no answer to your question. No Feral is not better than resto, and yet Resto is no longer better than Feral either. There is no winner. Sometimes things can be a tie.

Why is this so? Because druid talent trees overlap way too much to be exclusive. There is little in either tree that a 30/21 or 20/31 build can't gain. Because druids as hybrids rely less on talents than other classes. So we have these 2 common builds, both are a variety of feral and resto tree hybrid.

Both builds can get Feral any combination of:
Ferocity, Feral Instict, Brutal Impact, Feline Swiftness, Feral Charge, Sharpened claws, Blood Frenzy, Primal Fury, Thick Hide, Imp Shred

Both can get from Resto any combo of:
Furor, Improved MOTW, Imp Healing Touch, Nature's Focus, Imp Enrage, Insect Swarm, Reflexion, Tranq Spirit, Imp Rejuv., Sublety, Nature's Swiftness.

That's a lot of carry over. Notice how all that volume of talents were only up to 20 points per tree (except Nat. Swiftness). The designers did that for a reason. And I'd have to believe that was because they wanted druids to be able to spec for a hybrid playstyle and do it effectively, since you know, we are hybrids and all. This is even more evident when you look at the gear they are bringing out for druids. The PVP gear is all hybrid. The new PVE raid set (Genesis) is all hybrid.

Now what do they not get? 30/21 cannot get most notably, Gift of Nature, Imp Regrowth and Innervate. So this feral build misses out on 10% healing boost basically. Innervate can be made up for by gear selection. Though the utility aspect (which is innervates strength) is lost. And in PVP imp Regrowth is nice to have especially if you have spell crit on your gear. This I think was the biggest hit from when I went back to feral from a Resto build. Healing touch does nice heals even without Gift of Nature. I just miss those nice Regrowth crits.

Now for the 20/31 build. Savage Fury which isn't really that big of a deal. Feral Fearie Fire (wow lot of "F's"). Its a tactical thing. Leader of the Pack, 1 point for 3% crit isn't bad, not to mention it helps you whole group. Though more a PVE thing. Its a support talent, basically something for a feral druid to add to the other members, not so much for him/herself. The big one is Heart of the Wild. Basically it helps any form you are in. Its the only talent druids have which significantly boosts all 3 of our major forms. A lot of people think that its just stats so its not a big deal. But the thing is, druids are ruled by our stats. So until the devs make weapons carry over to bear/cat forms, it is a big deal.


Anyways there isn't really much that either build loses out when they are put into practice. Because gear is more important than talents. So...neither is better. Neither really loses out that much as they both can gain basically the same things.

Its obvious that with Blizzard is intending to take druids away from the healer only role and move us into a more flexible playstyle.

First we had the PVP sets come out, which made a hybrid stat set up more possible.

Then we had the talent reviews which made feral and balance more acceptable, not just for the player but notice how our 31 point talents are party buffs. But the thing about the reviews was notice how the talents were arranged to make talents accessible with little point spenditure in a tree. For example: Feline Swiftness used to be a 21 point talent. Also take into account how many feral talents are only 2 or 3 points to max out. Similar things were done to resto as well. And OOC from balance was modified to work regardless of form. As well as Nature's grace can now work for both healing and nukes.

Now we have AQ raid gear coming out which is also very hybrid. All stats, a weapon with feral AP, +healing and + damage, also spell crit.

To add to this, it has been stated by Blizzard reps in interviews that there will be bosses in AQ that a warrior in fact, cannot tank. So we'll have to see how all this new game content will play along with the changes Blizzard is making to the Druid class.

Falloraan
02-06-2006, 01:54 PM
For real tho' the whole pvp issue was brought up in the thread because of the common misconception that resto' isn't a pvp build. As said before, I'm bringing this up to not only show that resto is a pvp build, but the best.I'd probably agree with you, with the caveat that it is the best for organized pvp. But if you do 100% pickup groups, where about half the time people are too lazy to even start a raid group (which is how it is on my server), you will get better honor and have more fun with a feral build.

goa
02-09-2006, 01:58 PM
True enough... I re-read the first thread and I did indeed post my rank to rub it in goa's nose. It worked too...

huh? your point being?

I'm rank 11 BTW (dont remember what rank you said you were, sorry). Didn't want to get to rub ranks in peoples faces but when you ask so "polite" how can I refuse. :D

Dunno if I'm gonna try pushing rank 12. I'm getting pretty fed up with the honor grinding as of late TBH, and many of my IRL friends have started playing on a different server, so I'm prolly gonna give my druid a rest and level up my new boy with them instead. :) And the casual level-up gaming is getting pretty cozy.

Rockwell
02-10-2006, 12:43 PM
Gratz Goa, it's nice that 1.8 lowered the honor requirements and made it easier for players like yourself to rank up 8)

goa
02-10-2006, 10:24 PM
Gratz Goa, it's nice that 1.8 lowered the honor requirements and made it easier for players like yourself to rank up 8)

Like I said earlier. Honor ranks in WoW is just about grinding really.

Cool videos where people do smart and clever stuff is a bigger proof of "skill" in WoW than having a high rank.

Ghost Bear
02-11-2006, 02:00 AM
Gratz Goa, it's nice that 1.8 lowered the honor requirements and made it easier for players like yourself to rank up 8)

I see that last shred of maturity just went out the window. 2cent comments FTL.

On another note I guess I have to hand it to you. I don't know how you can come out and openly state you were trying to instigate an arguement and continue to drive that finger in, and yet still no moderator warning. :clap:

Back on topic, rank really means nothing. Anyone can go download an AFK bot and sit in BG all day long without lifting a finger. Or hire a room full of Chinese kids to do the work for them.

And since I'm certain I'm going to get flamed for this post, let me preemptively reply by saying I'm just using language you guys seem to understand. /personalattack :texla:

Yrys
02-11-2006, 09:25 AM
Didn't see this before. Please feel free to report a post you feel should be moderated using the red-fringed triangle at the lower left of the post. It'll e-mail all the moderators.

Locking this for continued personal attacks.