View Full Forums : Feral Druid really > Rogue


Atrus
01-30-2006, 04:21 PM
I was in the druid forums and there were lots of people talking about how feral druids out dps rogues.

I don't think they do and are not intended to out dps rogues (in cat) or mages (in moonkin).

Does anyone here want to tell me the math behind how equally geared druids do more dps than a rogue?

Darleeg
01-31-2006, 08:03 AM
The nice thing about our revamp in our talent trees is the paths are actually viable now.

On many occasions if there is enough healing and am designated dps, if I stay behind a mob and am spamming cower when it comes up I can easily take lead or stay high up on these damage lists that people generate.

In PvP it's another story, staying behind someone takes alot more skill and against some opponents it's not happening.

We may out DPS in certain optimal scenerios, but we lack ALOT of the utilities of the parent classes to even get us in those optimal scenerios.

With certain specs and optimal gear we may push to excel in a certain damage, but it's at the expense of sacrificing other talents, skills, utilities, and stats.

Atrus
01-31-2006, 09:46 AM
I still find it hard to believe we can do damage when we are supposed to be 'like' rogues.

Ghost Bear
01-31-2006, 10:49 AM
Feral druids can get more attack power than rogues. Also part of this is understanding the rogue talent trees. Rogues have 3 trees for different forms of dealing damage. They are not equal. They have different styles and different uses, just as ours. But since we only have 1 melee tree, all our melee is jumbled up into that tree. We don't have to pick in choose in this one area.

So like I said, we can get higher AP and nice crit too. But the real difference comes from tree paths and energy use. This shows up in two very specific skills. Those being Backstab/Shred and Eviscerate/Ferocious Bite. And 2 talents in Omen of Clarity/Relentless Strikes and Imp. Shred/Vigor.

Firstly, we'll do the easy one. Ferocious Bite > Eviscerate. Not meaning it does more damage, but it does more damage comparatively. FB has a noticeable damage bump. Eviscerate really isn't any more powerful than Backstab. This is because these skills are not based on weapon attack power. They have an inherent damage base which you can see on the tool tip. Most rogues typically use Slice and Dice to dump the combo points. But what do they do when they are full on points again and S&D is still up?

Now the more complicated one. Like I said the 3 different trees rogues have focus on different aspects. 2 of these trees have talents to enhance energy consumption (assassination and combat). The problem is that 2 of the 3 talents are 31 point talents. The other one being relentless strikes which is tier 3 assassin and is on a chance.

So what does that matter? Well druids have talents for this too. The important ones for this topic being Imp. Shred and Omen of Clarity. Omen of Clarity is also a chance to fire. However it can work on any melee attack, not just off finishers like Relent Strikes. And is always a 100% free shot, where RS is based on how many points you got. But really I'd say they are about even, its just noting that we have a skill to balance out compared to their RS.

Now for Vigor. This is really a game changing skill for rogues. That 10 extra energy means that they can add more into a chain of attacks. But this only really helps at the beginning of a fight. Where that combo is necessary, and only in a quick fight is this taken to full potential. Well that's perfect because that is what assassin tree is about, fast and powerful DPS. But its not sustainable. After they blow their cooldowns and are visible now they lose that power the longer the fight goes on, think high end raid fights of great length. This is really more of a PVP tree, which is why many rogues in raid guilds are combat specced which is more damage over time.

In comparison to druids and Imp Shred. Imp Shred is always a -12 energy cost to shred. Our most important move for cat form. This is where you damage comes from if you are raiding. The finishers are just enhancement. Now while we don't have a talent to give us 110 energy, we always have a 48 cost backstab with this talent. Shred and BS have the same 60 energy base cost at lvl 60. So while rogues have to wait till full energy to gain that +10 boost from vigor (if they are even specced for it) we simply have to wait till we have 48 energy to fire our BS. Also 110 energy is still not enough for 2 backstabs or an ambush->backstab. So the thing is it might seem like these even out. But they dont. Because even while we are using a move we are still ticking back our energy. And the important thing is that feral druids have more access to imp shred than rogues have to their vigor. So basically we can get more Backstabs off than a rogue. This is important because rogues have no talents for decreasing energy use on backstab. I was really surprised when I learned this from a rogue guildy.

Now this all changes at heavy endgame. Why? Because rogue gear. The 5 piece Nightslayer set bonus, +10 energy. A combat rogue with this will be able to do crazy things, remember vigor is assassin tree not combat, and for good reason. Also an assassin rogue with vigor now has an effective 120 energy. Also the set bonuses for reducing threat increase their agro ceiling more than ours. This translates into more energy because theoretically they should have to use their cower less than us.

Also there are rogue builds which do not even grab a 31 point talent, so they may not have any energy enhancement at all.

So I know that's rambly but I hope you can follow. Druids basically have an energy advantage for a long part of the game, though rogues do make up for it later. Also rogues need some help on a couple of their skills, mainly eviscerate. I also believe that Omen of clarity, Ferocity and Imp Shred (all 3 of which can easily place into a feral build) is a better talent combo than Relentless Strikes/Vigor or RelStrikes/Adrenaline Rush.


If you really get down and look into the trees, you can see just how fortunate we are now. The feral tree really does have some nice things. I think they did a nice job of picking some really good rogue support talents (and some rogues don't even have) and placing them into feral.

We have 2 talents that cut cost of basically all our feral skills, a better seal fate, a better Relentless strikes (omen of clarity) and just the general layout of important talents is superior to rogues.

Ghost Bear
01-31-2006, 10:51 AM
Just wanted to add, we still are not superior to rogues. Rogues are not deadly because of the damage they do. Druids, warriors, mages, warlocks can all do damage. Rogues are deadly because they can do that damage and you can't do anything about it. Its the utility (stuns/poisons) that makes rogues superior.

gwmort
01-31-2006, 12:24 PM
and don't forget the dual wielding...

Ghost Bear
01-31-2006, 01:09 PM
and don't forget the dual wielding...

Yeah duel weilding is pimp but loses some novelty when a fury warrior is around. Actually I'm sorta under the impression a fury war can gain more from DW than a rogue. Because rogues as a class are more based off their abilities than a fury warrior which relies more on white damage accumulation.

As far as druids are concerned, cat form 1.0 attack speed is basically duel wield I guess.

goa
02-12-2006, 11:34 PM
Ghost bear rocks! :)

It's all about OOC and Improved Shred really.

Ittles
02-20-2006, 05:16 AM
GEAR! It seems to me that a feral specc'd druid and a rogue (any spec) do similar damage based on what gear they have. From what i've seen so far (limited i know), it definately comes down to the quality of your gear and the strategy of your attack.

Panchieftain
02-20-2006, 09:44 AM
Rogues do more dmg than Druid. That's after all the only perpose of their existance in the game

goa
02-20-2006, 11:06 AM
Rogues do more dmg than Druid. That's after all the only perpose of their existance in the game

You didn't read Ghost Bears long reply did you? I did an experiment last BWL-run with 6 all BWL-epic-geared rogues (I myself wear a few blues - and theese rogues are also DAMN good)..
Result:If I'm lucky with OOC I can sometimes over-DPS them (even themselves told me they were surprised I could keep up with their DPS).

So.. what you're saying is not true.

trunkz1942
03-01-2006, 03:12 AM
You didn't read Ghost Bears long reply did you? I did an experiment last BWL-run with 6 all BWL-epic-geared rogues (I myself wear a few blues - and theese rogues are also DAMN good)..
Result:If I'm lucky with OOC I can sometimes over-DPS them (even themselves told me they were surprised I could keep up with their DPS).

So.. what you're saying is not true.



think you could post your gear goa?

Annikk
03-01-2006, 07:13 AM
Awesome! A thread about DAMAGE!! :D

To add to Ghost Bear's excellent post, there's also the issue of how much crit% and attack power we get from stats.

Rogues will generally pump their agility because each point of agility gives them 1 attack power, plus 0.05% crit. That same point of agility will give druids exactly the same bonuses. However - strength gives rogues just 1 attack power as well (hence the reason for mainly pumping agility, as it gives the crit% too), but a feral cat druid with HotW gets 2.4 attack power for every point of strength, meaning we can vastly outstrip them in attack power.

I recently compared my (at the time lvl 52) cat's attack power to that of a lvl 60 rogue friend of mine. For reference, he is in close to full tier 2 gear, and all but 2 or 3 of his items are purple. Although his crit % was still higher than mine by about 7%, we had roughly the same amount of attack power. That's 8 levels difference, and a world of difference in gear level - as an example, I still wear shoulders that require lvl 25, whereas he has Bloodfang Shoulders.

To summarise:

-----------Str--------Agi----------
Cat-----2.4 AP----1 AP 0.05%crit--
Rogue----1 AP-----1 AP 0.05%crit--


Now consider this. Take an average green item as an example, say, [Filthy Green Pauldrons of the (Insert Name)]
For rogues to pump their agility, they are best off going with [Filthy Green Pauldrons of Agility]. A typical item like this might give, say, 20 agility.

Now consider the following: Cat's, because they get such a boost from both str and agi, can go for a combination of these stats - for example, [Filthy Green Pauldrons of the Tiger]. A typical item like this will have perhaps 15 str and 15 agi. This is far superior for the cat, and arguably even for the rogue, but as the table above demonstrates, the cat will always get more out of the stats than a rogue will.

This is very much a generalised example, but if you compare items from any region of item level, you will always find that a combination of stats has more numbers than an item that focuses purely on one stat. If your class can benefit from 2 stats instead of just one, it's usually better to go for these "combo" items. Because cats benefit more from strength than rogues do, cats will always get more out of their items than rogues will.


This might seem very unfair on the rogues, but as ever, there is a catch. Rogues get to make use of their weapon damage, whereas cats don't. Cats are always stuck with the default attack speed and the default damage that cat form gives. If a rogue wants to increase their damage, the easiest way to do it is always going to be to find better weapons. If a cat wants to increase her damage output, she has to spread it out over her entire set of gear. This is the critical balancing point, and it is also why a clever rogue is able to obtain massive dps easily, dps a cat can only achieve by upgrading every item they wear. But there's even an exception to this rule - there are now 2 different maces in the game that give a massive boost to attack power in cat and bear form. This helps to offset the difference between the 2 classes a little, and shows that Blizzard are committed to making cat form a viable option for late-game dps.

I have faith that someday my cat will outdamage everybody - rogues, casters, even hunters. I have a pretty good track record where damage is concerned and would cautiously assert that my understanding of how damage works is relatively encompassing. Once I start raiding with my guild, I will be sure to let you guys know how my damage output compares with everyone else's..


-Annik

Wuppy
03-04-2006, 08:29 AM
If i'm not mistaken rogues need 25 agi for 1% crit?

My experience is that i normally are in the top of the damage doing list when partying with equally equiped rogues & mages (all blues). And i'm a lazy cat, forgetting to do fury a lot of times or forget to use the dot attacks :) Maybe i'mnot at the #1 spot, but being in the top still means my dps did matter and did kill the enemies quicker.

In MC (& BWL however not been there yet with my druid) it's a different story. But that's logical, all other dps classes are wearing tier 1 or 2 armor and have nice epic weapons. My feral druid is wearing... blues and is using a blue mace (since till recently that was about the best feral weapon u could get).

I'm happy to read goa managed to keep up with the rogues, probably means i need to improve my laziness and focus on doing more damage.

I wonder what the cats dps will be with all these nice new drops from AQ (all having descent +str bonusses to them)? Hope goa gets 'm soon, does the test again and posts the result here.

Annikk
03-06-2006, 08:27 AM
It's an interesting feature of AQ that it seems to contain a lot of items for feral-specced druids but not very much for rogues. This may be a cat's chance to overtake rogues for raid damage. I would be most interested in the results if anyone gets the AQ mace.


Also, I was pretty certain rogues need 20 agility per crit %, but I could be wrong. I'll check sometime..


-Annik

Rayze
03-06-2006, 01:46 PM
Also, I was pretty certain rogues need 20 agility per crit %, but I could be wrong. I'll check sometime..


-Annik

I would like to say it's 27.

goa
03-07-2006, 02:03 AM
think you could post your gear goa?

from the top of my head, dps gear is: eye of rend, eskandars collar, AB shoulders, AB cloak, PvP chest, wristguards of stability, PvP gloves, AB waist, striking legs, shadow flame boots, AV ring, ogre king ring, darkmoon card: lightning damage, TuF (this is prolly modified from dif encounters) - so still many blues - waiting for malfurions bulwark and taut dragonhide belt.

Everything is enchanted with as much strength as possible (yes even legs and head) and I drink +25 str pot and eat +20 str food.. and yes we have imp BoK also.. and I have Imp Shred, OOC and HotW.. and please keep in mind that my feral aura could just aswell transform the rogues extra damage as "mine". 8)

But anyway... just having a druid for DPS is also a waste imo. When our leader groups me with the rogues for my feral aura I usually use a mix to be able to pop out and heal/rez/decurse/whatever when needed.. one useful thing I noticed when I'm grouped with the rogues is to pop out/bark skin/tranquility.. I'm already close to them all as I'm stabbing the bad guy in the back with them.. and as I'm in the same group as them they all gets healed and don't have to waste time an run away and bandage themselves. \o/

Even the formerly most sceptic rogues (you know, the ones that yell "feral druids can't dps..lololool") nowadays LOVE me. :D