The Druids Grove

Here's where your tax dollars are going

We need to increase Educational Spending

AbyssalMage wrote:We need to increase Educational Spending

Or, we (that is, you) need to realize that state and local governments, not the federal government, pay for virtually all of education; that we already spend more per student than almost every other country; and for that increasingly massive spending we get increasingly mediocre students, who can't read, spell, or point to their country on a map, and think the Earth was made by an old man in the sky 6,000 years ago.

We need to cut military spending. We have all this military power and when we're not at war, it's just begs us to get into a war. And war is so painless for 99% of us, all we do is have everyone else fight it and we pass the cost off onto our children/grandchildren.

Baron Munchausen: What's this?
Vulcan: Oh, this is our prototype. RX, uh, Intercontinental, radar-sneaky, multi-warheaded nuclear missile.
Baron Munchausen: Ah! What does it do?
Vulcan: Do? Kills the enemy.
Baron Munchausen: All the enemy?
Vulcan: Aye, all of them. All their wives, and all their children, and all their sheep, and all their cattle, and all their cats and dogs. All of them. All of them gone for good.
Sally: That's horrible.
Vulcan: Ahh. Well, you see, the advantage is you don't have to see one single one of them die. You just sit comfortably thousands of miles away from the battlefield and simply press the button.
Berthold: Well, where's the fun in that?

Tudamorf wrote:

AbyssalMage wrote:We need to increase Educational Spending

Or, we (that is, you) need to realize that state and local governments, not the federal government, pay for virtually all of education; that we already spend more per student than almost every other country; and for that increasingly massive spending we get increasingly mediocre students, who can't read, spell, or point to their country on a map, and think the Earth was made by an old man in the sky 6,000 years ago.

I have worked in education, getting my degree so that I can teach education, and I can promise you Europe out spends us on K-12 Education and College. There is a reason we are lagging further and further behind and it is because the Republican party has successfully brainwashed American's into thinking we actually spend anything on education so they keep cutting it.

AbyssalMage wrote:I have worked in education, getting my degree so that I can teach education, and I can promise you Europe out spends us on K-12 Education and College.

The 2012-13 California budget calls for $67.1 billion in spending for K-12 education, or $11,246 per student. That's about 70% of the entire state budget, though around 10% comes from federal funds.

The OECD reports generally place the U.S. at the very top in spending per student, maybe in a tie with Switzerland for the top position. It goes without saying that U.S. education quality is far below that of Switzerland or any Western European country.

The U.S. education system sucks, but not for lack of money being thrown at it.

Tudamorf wrote:

AbyssalMage wrote:I have worked in education, getting my degree so that I can teach education, and I can promise you Europe out spends us on K-12 Education and College.

The 2012-13 California budget calls for $67.1 billion in spending for K-12 education, or $11,246 per student. That's about 70% of the entire state budget, though around 10% comes from federal funds.

The OECD reports generally place the U.S. at the very top in spending per student, maybe in a tie with Switzerland for the top position. It goes without saying that U.S. education quality is far below that of Switzerland or any Western European country.

The U.S. education system sucks, but not for lack of money being thrown at it.

They are not spending $11.2k on each student in California. My guess, if its like the national average, is closer to 3.5k or less. The other 7.7k either was never distributed by the government (State, Federal, or local) or goes to other expenses they label as "education" that administrators at the school level (not district) never see. One example that I can give you from the federal level is that they release the money for some special education programs only after the money has been spent at the state level. In essence, they give the state a promissory note for 2-3k but actually only give 1-2k because of the paper work. The state then has to make up the difference which they never do. So on the paperwork it looks like Federal government was spending 2-3k on each child but the actual money that passed through the Federal, State, City, and District hands is closer to 1-2k. And that is if they, the school or district, filled out the paperwork correctly. That's why you see many school districts (or now, local schools) hire specialized secretaries to fill out Federal, State, and Local reimbursement forms or apply for money that they should be receiving in the first place.

AbyssalMage wrote:They are not spending $11.2k on each student in California.

I said we plan to spend $11,246 per student, not $11,246 on each student. "Classroom instruction" makes up 61% of the expense. This is straight from the governor's official budget, by the way, not some partisan advocacy group.

You could say our system is inherently inefficient, and most of the money gets wasted, but it definitely gets spent. So the solution is not to spend more, but to spend less, and do so more wisely.

Tudamorf wrote:

AbyssalMage wrote:They are not spending $11.2k on each student in California.

I said we plan to spend $11,246 per student, not $11,246 on each student. "Classroom instruction" makes up 61% of the expense. This is straight from the governor's official budget, by the way, not some partisan advocacy group.

You could say our system is inherently inefficient, and most of the money gets wasted, but it definitely gets spent. So the solution is not to spend more, but to spend less, and do so more wisely.

Ok, how can you first say, "I said we plan to spend 11,246" and then say, "money gets wasted, but it definitely gets spent." I never argued that it gets spent. I simply stated the money they budget for education is not being spent on (or in) education. And I am not saying this is partisan either. Both parties "promise" the money, but "promise" is just a word with out meaning when it comes out of a politician's mouth

It also reinforces my point. Politicians say they are spending 11.2k per/child by showing you the spending bills they pass. They don't show you the fine print that starts siphoning that money off to other non-education projects if certain arbitrary benchmarks aren't met. NCLB was a great example of this at the Federal level. At the state level, it is just as bad, but people tend to pay less attention because they are in denial (or something, I really can't figure it out why people get bent out of shape when the Federal government passes legislation that the majority of states have already in their law books).

AbyssalMage wrote:It also reinforces my point. Politicians say they are spending 11.2k per/child by showing you the spending bills they pass. They don't show you the fine print that starts siphoning that money off to other non-education projects if certain arbitrary benchmarks aren't met.

Actually, the California Constitution guarantees most of the spending on education. Look up Proposition 98. It's downright oppressive, the money we waste on education.

Americans like to spend a small fortune on making marginal improvements to "special needs" children, but scoff at the notion of spending a small fraction of that money on exceptional children and higher education -- you know, the stuff that actually produces the most productive citizens.

Tudamorf wrote:

AbyssalMage wrote:It also reinforces my point. Politicians say they are spending 11.2k per/child by showing you the spending bills they pass. They don't show you the fine print that starts siphoning that money off to other non-education projects if certain arbitrary benchmarks aren't met.

Actually, the California Constitution guarantees most of the spending on education. Look up Proposition 98. It's downright oppressive, the money we waste on education.

Americans like to spend a small fortune on making marginal improvements to "special needs" children, but scoff at the notion of spending a small fraction of that money on exceptional children and higher education -- you know, the stuff that actually produces the most productive citizens.

Spending any money on education isn't waist full. And I would be interested to see Proposition 98 because I know your elected officials aren't following it.