Christians: "Thou Shalt Suffer"

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Tudamorf
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Christians: "Thou Shalt Suffer"

Post by Tudamorf » Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:52 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12740663
Joseph Maraachli: End-of-life row toddler moved to US

Parents of a terminally ill Canadian boy have transferred him to a US Catholic hospital after an Ontario court ruled doctors could remove a breathing tube keeping him alive.

Joseph Maraachli, aged one, is in a vegetative state with a severe neurological condition and will not recover, Canadian doctors say.

An Ontario hospital refused his parents' request for a tracheotomy they say will prolong his life by six months and allow him to die at home.

A Catholic hospital in the US city of St Louis will review his case, a family lawyer said.

'Die comfortably'

Joseph had been at London Health Sciences Centre since October, where doctors say he will die as soon as he is removed from a ventilator. The Ontario hospital had agreed to transfer him to the family home before doing so.

But the child's family said removal of the ventilator would cause him to choke painfully to death, and asked doctors to perform a tracheotomy that they said would allow him to die more comfortably and slowly.

The hospital has said the procedure is not medically necessary and will not treat the boy's condition and refused to authorise it.

Joseph was flown to the Cardinal Glennon Children's Hospital in St Louis in the US state of Missouri on Sunday.

The transfer on a private jet was sponsored by Priests for Life, a US anti-abortion group whose head said in a statement he had "won the battle against the medical bureaucracy in Canada".

Joseph's parents, Moe Maraachli and Sana Nader, had defied a Canadian court's order to allow doctors to remove the boy's breathing tube.
What is it about these Christians that compels them to cause and prolong suffering as much as possible?

And then send me the bill for their stupidity?

Predictably, the Fox News crowd rewrites this story as one of a kid being "rescued" and given a "fighting chance". Yes, seriously. As though maintaining the body of a brain dead patient is some sort of victory. I suppose when he dies they'll want all the organs to rot in a box underground, too.

AbyssalMage
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Re: Christians: "Thou Shalt Suffer"

Post by AbyssalMage » Wed Mar 16, 2011 5:08 am

Well, he is a vegetable, so he isn't suffering anymore. My heart goes out to the family for losing their son at such a young age, but I think the hospital was correct by not waisting the insurance or tax payers money by performing the operation. If the family wanted to spend their own money (the article didn't say either way) then by all means, the doctors could of performed the surgery. Unfortunately, the boy is already dead, this is more about the greiving of the family.

Fyyr
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Re: Christians: "Thou Shalt Suffer"

Post by Fyyr » Wed Mar 16, 2011 5:10 am

Mage, you must support death panels then, huh?
Who are you to decide who lives or dies?

AbyssalMage
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Re: Christians: "Thou Shalt Suffer"

Post by AbyssalMage » Wed Mar 16, 2011 5:12 am

Fyyr wrote:Mage, you must support death panels then, huh?
Who are you to decide who lives or dies?
Lol, who's talking about death panels? I wasn't. The article stated he's in a vegetable state and suffers from a sever case of neurological damage. (I assume, and it is only an assumption on my part) that he child is brain dead. In medical terms, dead! You can't decide if someone is dead if they are already medically dead.

Fyyr
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Re: Christians: "Thou Shalt Suffer"

Post by Fyyr » Wed Mar 16, 2011 5:52 am

There is a distinction between medically dead and brain dead.
They are not the same.

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Tudamorf
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Re: Christians: "Thou Shalt Suffer"

Post by Tudamorf » Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:29 pm

Fyyr wrote:There is a distinction between medically dead and brain dead.
They are not the same.
Are you implying that we should pay for doctors to keep someone's heart and lungs working after their brain is dead? I mean, outside of just a temporary measure to preserve organs.

Fyyr
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Re: Christians: "Thou Shalt Suffer"

Post by Fyyr » Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:32 am

Tudamorf wrote: Are you implying that we should pay for doctors to keep someone's heart and lungs working after their brain is dead? I mean, outside of just a temporary measure to preserve organs.
I am not implying that we should.

I am saying that we do.***
Unless your living will/advance directive states otherwise.
Or your Durable Power Of Attorney chooses extubation.

Many of us in healthcare pejoratively call them "vent farms"(secretively, of course) or "decube farms". Older nurses used to call them veggie patches or cabbage patches.
They are a hidden aspect of our society and healthcare system. But more common than you are lead to believe. Some are called Transitional Care Units, TCUs. Some are called Skilled Nursing Facilities(SNFs, pronounced 'sniffs'), I often call them UnSkilled Nursing Facilities during report. It is a whole unmentioned costly industry. Sometimes they are called Long Term Acute Care(LTACs).

If you are a ward of the State, that is to say with no family or DPOA(other than the State) which is very common, you will be kept on a vent indefinitely. Many families just write these poor bastards off, long long before they actually die.
Usually dying of pneumonia or sepsis at an extended later date.

Medically dead and brain dead are very very very different things. Very.
And you people thought there were no such things as conspiracies.

***Well much less doctors than you think. In this case its mostly administrators(suits), care givers, nurses, nutritionists, housekeeping, maintenance, biomed, PharmDs, techs, RTs, CNAs, bureaucrats(more suits), etc. Doctors are probably one of the lesser expenses in terms of the healthcare costs of these patients. You may have the impression from experience, when you go to a doctor you see a doctor for example, or from TV shows where doctors in a hospital actually work. But in these milieus, in the clinical settings, TCUs, SNFs ect, doctors are much hands off, pretty much they just write orders when asked to by the rest of the staff.
Last edited by Fyyr on Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Fyyr
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Re: Christians: "Thou Shalt Suffer"

Post by Fyyr » Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:23 am

Let me just give you a couple of costs associated.
A brain dead patients is going to get a tracheostomy and a percutaneous endoscopic tube(PEG, the feeding tube), trached and PEGed.

Here is a typical tube feeding.
http://www.google.com/products/catalog? ... CD0Q8wIwBA#
That's about one day's worth. 70. Then you have to pay for the TF pumps and maintenence.
TF tubing is changed once per day, 83.
http://www.amazon.com/Kangaroo-Pump-Tub ... B000P9WO1Y

Tube feeding is going to cause diarrhea. So you need a fecal management system. Flexiseal is the most common now.
http://www.amazon.com/ConvaTec-Flexi-Se ... B000N64N4A
Now you get three bags in that, which is about 3 days worth. 615.
10 more bags, at about 1 bag per 24h. 111.

Here is a trach tube, Shiley 6. 140.
http://www.google.com/products/catalog? ... CCYQ8wIwAg#
Here is the inner cannula for the trach. 60.
http://www.nextag.com/Mallinckrodt-Cann ... rices-html
Those are changed about once a day.

All bodily fluids and wastes go into biohazard disposal. Look up how expensive that is on your own.
Sharps disposal, look that up as well.
HIPAA overhead, shredding service for example.
If the patient is in isolation, then gowns are going to cost at least 600 per month.
A box of gloves is about 10 bucks, and that lasts about a shift, so 30 per day there.
Decubitus costs. Ostomy costs. Wounds costs.

Ventilator costs, and the staff and maintenance.
Back up power supply, battery, and generator for the whole building. Fire alarms, inspection, and testing.

Linens are changed everyday, unless soiled, then more often.
Meds, 100-1000s per day. Plus Pharmacists, and Pharm techs. You get to research the cost on a Pyxis machine.
Direct care Staffing is going to cost at least 3000 per day, its a 24 hour job that's 3 shifts.
These are wholesale costs, not gross or retail. Need I go on?

edit, Forgot that this type of care is extremely extremely burdened with liability, insurance, lawsuits, and lawyer tax. Higher than most types of healthcare.

erianaiel
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Re: Christians: "Thou Shalt Suffer"

Post by erianaiel » Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:10 am

Fyyr wrote:Mage, you must support death panels then, huh?
Who are you to decide who lives or dies?
*blinks*

That attack rather came out of nowhere Fyyr.

Also, I am guessing that before we can even attempt to decide -who- lives, we first have to decide -what- life is. And where to draw the line (and if a line should be drawn).
Do we limit ourselves to humans (and why should we be so arrogant as to decide only they deserve to be considered worthy of that special protectiong).
Or maybe we should also include pets? Farm animals? Insects? Bacteria?
Plants? And are only trees special enough or should our special protection also extend to, say, algea?
How about that rock out in the garden? Is that alive and special enough to prevent us from digging it out and breaking it up to tiny pieces?
Hmm... How about ideas? You know, the constitution of the USA and the amendments to it that have been declared sacred by special interest groups? Or the constitution of my country? Or the literary works of any Nobel prize laureate? Or the work of any author that should have been honoured that way but never was? Should we prohibit wanton adaptations to the play 'Romeo and Juliet' on the grounds that it is such an iconic play that it should be considered an integral part of humanity and thus worthy of the same protection as any human being?
How about the Bible? Or the Quran (fanatic Muslim already value those words above human life)? Or maybe Lolcats or any other internet meme?
How about people's facebook accounts? It could be argued they are an integral part of their social personality and as such should be considered an extension of the person (and thus that cutting it off is akin to amputating a limb without medical need and express permission).

Yes, I am exagerating things. Not because of a slippery slope argument but because it is so incredibly difficult to determine what is life, and what the boundaries are of a human being.
Over the years much of what we once thought to be the exclusive defining characteristics of humanity has been shown to exist in different forms in other animals as well. We have discovered that life is much broader and much fuzzier than we previously thought, and that no life form exists on its own but always in relation to an ecosystem. We learned that our personality and consciousness is as much defined by our social environment as it is by our body, and that thanks to the increasing interconnectedness of person, society and (inter)networks, we are fragmenting into different persona, each of which is a reflection of ourself in different social environments.

Questions like 'Should we pull a plug?' and 'When should we decide to do so?' are more difficult to answer than ever before. And it does not sit right with me to reduce them to a black and white 'If you disagree with me you must be murdering genocidal monster' point of view.


Eri

erianaiel
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Re: Christians: "Thou Shalt Suffer"

Post by erianaiel » Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:38 am

Fyyr wrote:There is a distinction between medically dead and brain dead.
They are not the same.
True, though in this case the only relevant issue is if the boy is -legally- dead or not. The Canadian judges ruled that he is, and that as such there is no requirement to continue to keep the body operating until something that the doctors could not stop (in time) shut that down too.
The parents, and the American hospital, disagreed with the legal decision and moved the child to a place that agreed with them. I can not fault the parents for feeling this way. It seems like they are unable to face the inevitable, but I can not possibly say if I would not feel just like them if something similar happened to my daughter.

And no Tudamorf, I do not belief there is a christian conspiracy at work here. Certainly nothing like what you named the topic of this discussion thread after. Only a vastly different belief system at work.

Eri

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