only gonna post a link this time so not to clutter up for you guys

<a href="http://forums.crgaming.com/eqbb/viewtopic.php?p=830088#830088" target="top">Enchanter Letter!</a>

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
rogues just got a new piercer in time, which hopefully they can augment when ldon comes out, being that most rogue dps comes from backstabs. They seem to want something roguely (whatever that is) along with being the top of situational dps (stabbing from behind) perhaps increasing the usefulness of chaotic stab (lets them backstab from the front) as long as they not on top of agro list [/quote]

Oh yeah, I feel so balanced now because uber rogues got a new dagger.

Just curious Nanyea, where's this request for a self-only regen coming from? I was trying to compare it with something the dress-wearers already had, but only the necros came close (and that's something that's apart of their class). What's the justification/reasoning?

The reasoning is that one of the class-defining abilities of enchanters is supposed to be mana regeneration but on a raid enchanters have the lowest mana regen of any caster. I think mages are in the same boat actually (not sure if they get something or not) but all of the priest classes and even ranger have higher mana regen as well.

mages have the armor line of spells + rods
wizards have skin line of spells + epic/or shield spell + flappy
necros have lich (doesnt stack but is higher) and taps

If you read the tone of the letter as far as pure melee is concerned, yes balancing via drops sucks, yes they need something to up their dps~ or give them some more utility

Thanks for the feedback feel free to keep posting it here (if mods are ok with it) or at the link

Yeah, I always thought it was funny that the best mana regen buff giver is the only caster, including priests, that doesn't have some form of self-only mana regen buff.

Well, ok shammies don't per se, but with Canni V, who needs it?

Enchanters do have access to a "Gather Mana" AA ability which can fully replenish an empty mana bar. That isn't exactly a mana regen buff in the traditional sense of the term, but I think it should be considered at least part of the chanter's overall ability to regenerate mana. With HG maxed, the re-use time drops to roughly 1 hour 40 minutes.

Looking at straight calculation of numbers, Gather Mana doesn't <em>seem</em> to acheive a very significant amount of mana/tic; however, that is offset by the fact that it can be used in a purposeful way to maximize its benefit. In other words, GM has some advantage over another caster's self-buff, which for example might be 4/tic but which is virtually wasted during every tic where he or she is full-mana.

~Firemynd

On warriors, I have seen posts about new equip coming from the new zones. I think newer/pooer equiped warriors can now hold aggro better with these new items which is what balancing pure melee is about... better weapons or better armor.

I play a level 65 enchanter.

I think the point is that all casting classes have mana regen they can get themselves outside of KEI. Someone might say, "Yeah but enchanter get KEI!" The answer is that "in this day and age everyone else does also". Everyone has KEI and their own regen. Enchanter gets KEI...period. Thus the request for the self only mana ergen like so many other classes have.

<strong>Gather Mana</strong> is for emergencies only and is not a viable reliable form of mana regen on a fight to fight basis. This is due to the LONG refresh time of 144 minutes or nearly 2.5 hours. Even at 1.5 hours with HG it isn't a viable form of reusable mana regen. It is an AA skill like Exodus.....you save it for when the fit has hit the shan.

I thought when it was hitting the fan was the only time enchanters did use a lot of mana?

Oooh... self-only mana regen. I was thinking HP. Sorry, my bad.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><Gather Mana> is an AA skill like Exodus.....you save it for when the fit has hit the shan. [/quote]

I understand your point, but when else is mana regeneration more important than in emergencies? Would that I could stash some of the wasted regen (while FM) from Mask, and use <em>that</em> during an emergency when every bit helps. Would that I could come back from a rez and immediately have mana to get back into action or rebuff. Would that I could effectively double my mana bar even once during a ring event when there is little time to med.

Hopefully you can understand my point a little better now. ;)

~Firemynd

Enchanters do have a self only mana regen, it just requires to be cast on a caster mob with mana. Wandering mind (very low, but some), its upgrade with LoY Scryers Trespass (50/tick, then somewhat of a recast time, but a nice boost) and also Theft of Thought (has/had a bug for a long time where it gets very little mana from mobs 55+)

This is inconvenient compared to the spells other classes get, I suppose, and useless if you're not fighting any casting mobs, but on the other hand enchanters get the convenience of being able to cast clarity/c2/KEI/voq on themselves. Whereas a lot of folks make do with just KEI because it lasts longer, the enchanter can keep giving himself or herself the higher, shorter duration mana regens if they are high enough level where theft of thought is useless because they're fighting 55+ mobs... so it works out reasonably well.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I thought when it was hitting the fan was the only time enchanters did use a lot of mana?[/quote]
Locking down a single add uses alot of mana when stuns are no longer an option and Sleep or Bliss are the mezzes required. A chanter slowing in BoT, HoH or CoD can quickly decimate half their mana on a single engagement if they get unlucky resists, have to Boggle and reRune and it does happen often enough. Of course, half of one chanter's mana may only be a third or fourth of another who has raid gear to use in the group environment. But since Sony has stated that the vast majority of players will not see the elemental planes, I think the average Joe chanter's gear is appropriate to assume.

Only two mana classes can come back from a rez FM. Clerics (divine rez) and enchanters (gather mana). Not that it has anything to do with anything. Just pointing it out.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><em>Felize Said</em> Enchanters do have a self only mana regen, it just requires to be cast on a caster mob with mana. Wandering mind (very low, but some), its upgrade with LoY Scryers Trespass (50/tick, then somewhat of a recast time, but a nice boost) and also Theft of Thought (has/had a bug for a long time where it gets very little mana from mobs 55+) [/quote]


most mobs dont have mana, they use procs, very limited situation, but granted they do exist, but this isnt a buff, its a spell slot wasted in most cases.

Enchanters do need a self mana regen buff. Its so obvious only Sony could overlook it.

Kind of like giving a class an epic with a haste boost that does not stack with the eyepatch of plunder that anyone can get.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Im sure theres room to add in a unique chain, plate, and silk breastplate off quarm[/quote]
does quarm drop a leather BP or did you forget to mention it.

omg.. its not like i have a team of editors.. yes a leather class BP too /cry...

edited letter to put in leather BP, sorry for the oversight

I played a Chanter hard into the 50's and I've been playing a L65 Chanter on the side in groups and in raids for about four months and since I got him SCM3 and can't think of single time I've ever thought to myself -- sheesh, I need more mana.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>"Yeah but enchanter get KEI!" The answer is that "in this day and age <strong>everyone</strong> else does also". Everyone has KEI and their own regen.[/quote]

Says who. That is a blanket statement and makes it untrue, I rarely have KEI or a chanter mana regen spell on, I might be lucky and get a refresh at the end of a raid, but I'd say more often then not I have to do deal with just my own buffs.

I'm not saying they shouldn't get one, just saying to be able to have a constant KEI on you has its benefits, and with the mana siphoning spells they have. Any chanter I have ever grouped with has more mana than myself more often so I don't think its a matter of mana regen but usage of the mana you have.

I played a Chanter hard into the 50's and I've been playing a L65 Chanter on the side in groups and in raids for about four months and since I got him SCM3 and can't think of single time I've ever thought to myself -- sheesh, I need more mana.

Try having two militis add when your group is in the middle of fighting a Kriger that you have had resist 3 slows and have debuffed with three debuffs.....2 Bliss's at 300+ mana a pop every 54 seconds, +2 tash, +2 roots, +2 slows........mana goes down the drain fast with level 60+ CC.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I played a Chanter hard into the 50's and I've been playing a L65 Chanter on the side in groups and in raids for about four months and since I got him SCM3 and can't think of single time I've ever thought to myself -- sheesh, I need more mana.[/quote]
I have played mine to level 65 and also have SCM3. I suppose our experiences may differ because of our gear, the gear and AAs of those we group with, the classes we may regularly group with, luck or you are somehow more skillful at controlling the resists on slows and mezzes. I assume the chanter you play is in your guild; would you classify your guild as a casual, a large raiding or uber guild?

For me, whether the group has good DPS, a shaman slowing, a strong offtanker, outdoors with horse, someone lulling for front end CC, caster mobs to siphon mana from or a paladin as the tank has a far greater impact on my mana than SCM3 did.

I have already addressed this issue. Make KEI/Tranq/VoQ self only buffs. Problem solved. Have a nice day :)

ROFL!

Ok, you really had me puzzled there for a sec.

For a long time an enchanter friend of mine (who has played at all levels of the game--casual non-raid, small raid, then large raid) told me he simply couldn't find a way to run out of mana. It just never was an issue for him. He never aggressively pursued flowing thought because it just didn't make a difference for him. (He got the earring of the solstice and 8th shawl, and later white dragonscale boots that he bought but mostly for the hp...I think that was it until he joined a large raiding guild)

Maybe his experience isn't typical? *shrug*

Bliss is expensive, voq and vq (c5 and haste) are expensive, slow is fairly expensive, tash is cheap, arcane rune is expensive, boggle is EXPENSIVE, so are deagro spells.

I think they tried to balance chanters in pop on the front end, or perhaps make us think we were gettin more for our mana, by making everything really expensive, except for the nuke... i finally got a wizards name on who to thank for that...(fear the ninja chanters in the night... you know who you are) and now that is still decent ratio, but slow recast. So we can burn alot of mana quickly, for ex. a 5 pull.. lets say in a mythical dungeon expansion, i mez 4 mobs, tash 4-5 and slow 4-5 of them; i have about 6600 mana or so, i regen at 18umc, dont have emp robe or shawl, cant use horse, maybe have nine if i was able to snatch a druid, we kill 1 mob a minute (good dps). I just burned 3/4 of my mana pool in 4-5 mins on first pull. If some of the mobs are really hard and resist alot, i may have had to blow my gather mana too (nice refresh time on that one).

Not asking for anything as strong as the cleric bulwark line... but an extra 2-3 per tick buff would be nice~

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Maybe his experience isn't typical? *shrug*[/quote]
Pre-PoP it was typical and I think is the reason chanters didn't get a self only mana regen for PoP.

Pre-PoP, we could dazzle most exp mobs for 96 seconds for 125 mana. In BoT, we Sleep mobs for 54 seconds for 275 mana. We can root a mob when there is room and opportunity for it to be outside the range of it's melee, but that is situational and rarely the case in BoT wings when a situation arises that mezzes are needed.

Pre-PoP, we could PBAoE stun most exp mobs for 4-8 seconds for 20-125 mana (Color Shift was my mem'd stun of choice for 40m lasting 6 seconds). The closest thing we have to stun in PoP is Word of Morrell, which is a 6 second PBAoE mez for 300m. Many chanters never bother to mem WoM because resists results in multiple mobs aggro'd on the chanter and no means of regaining control except for luck on the channeling rolls. Instead, our runes and Boggle have become the practical substitute for the color stun series. Arcane Rune is 400m for 1500 hit points (the AA rune is very nice and has a fast reset, but not fast enough for every pull and often held in reserves). Boggle reduces aggro for 250 mana.

Our Tash and Slow are the same, 40m and 225m respectively.

<span style="text-decoration:underline"><strong>Situation 1</strong></span>
Let us assume a perfect pull on a single mob with no resists and warrior as tank. Before I proceed, I will establish that it is a fact that most warriors do not have NToV, VT or elemental gear.
<em>Tash + Slow + Boggle + reRune = 40+225+250+400=915m</em>

That is roughly 25% of my mana before Mana Pres IV and SCM3 is taken into account, even though I don't believe all chanters 62-65 have those in items and AA. In such a situation, I can normally throw in an Insanity or Cripple depending whether I feel the reduced AC or DD will result in more damage to the mob.

<span style="text-decoration:underline"><strong>Situation 2</strong></span>
Hopefully, I don't need to point out that for more than twice the mana we can mez a single target for little more than half the time we used to able to do. Depending upon the group's DPS, one may or may not need to remez a single add (I usually group with pickup groups, level 62-65 friends and guildmates who are still equipping in WToV gear so I usually have to remez a single add).

Now assume a single add to what is described in Situation #1, where the chanter must mez. The add will often enough not need to be boggled and not beat the chanter's runes down anymore than the single pull. So we only really add 2 mezzes, a slow and Tash.
<em>915m + Tash + Slow + Sleep + Sleep = 915+40+225+275+275=1730m</em>

That is base mana cost of 1730 inside of a 4 minute engagement with no resists and a single add.

<span style="text-decoration:underline"><strong>Situation #3</strong></span>
Now lets assume Situation #2 with 2 adds, plus 1 slow resist and 1 mez resist (which is far from being unrealistic). This time, the chanter will likely have to boggle the resisted slow mob and the resisted mez mob while only going through 1 Arcane Rune and using the AA Rune.
<em>1730m + Tash + Resisted Slow + Slow + Boggle + Resisted Sleep + Sleep + Sleep + Sleep + Sleep = 1730+40+225+225+250+275+275+275+275+275=3845m</em> (feel free to check math since I did it in my head)

3845 base mana cost for what amounts to less than a 6 minute engagement. Even with Mana Pres IV and SCM3, this will use more than half of most chanters' mana pools. Pre-PoP, Situation #3 would've required maybe as high as 25-30% the mana use to lock down and slow the 2 adds.

The truth is that the mana efficiency of mezzes has changed dramatically, costing roughly 4x as much mana per second of a mez. Yes, chanters had more than enough mana Pre-PoP. But, I think Sony overshot a fair adjustment.

For those who are in groups equipped such these group encounters are trivial anyway, the mana use will be significantly less for several obvious reasons and I understand why their mana will not be as challenged. But the gear designed for raid progression can hardly be considered the benchmark for group content.

Edit: Added the 250m for the Boggle in Sit #3's formula.

My experience with chanters in PoP is their mana usage went way, way up. At level 60-62 (I think that was the levels) their mez was particularly expensive, it's been awhile now. I used the self-rune and Boggle a ton, and I think that's probably a lot of it.

I know that one chanter I was playing with was actually having to med. Part of that was people bugging him for KEI all the time, I finally told him to just say no, because it was causing the entire group downtime. You add in KEI, haste, expensive mezes, resists and so on and you're gonna have, in some cases, an OOM enchanter.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Druids seem to be doing ok, looking for 1 or 2 things to secure their niche as a healer, perhaps a group heal (fear the cleric outrage) or allowing more mods to effect their CH, or perhaps fixing the stacking code on their multitude of debuffs, or lowering their agro some (spellcasting subtlety double the cost?)[/quote]

Hmmm we do? since when we want mods to affect our ch or stacking code on debuffs?

When I fought in BoT I did dispell+tash+slow, waiting long enough before the tash to not get agro. For adds it was dispell + mez, or dispell + tash + mez, then slow. For the mob being tanked another class can do the dispell saving you some mana as well. From my experience dropping a mob's melee attack rate in two steps instead of one works out because dispell is more reliable than slow and it has a less agro. Also more classes can dispell than can slow. A mana preservation III item works well since it saves on tash (if you use a pre-50 one), slow and dispell. The quicker mobs are doing less damage the less healing used and the more mana healers have for other things like nukes and dots which make the fights go faster saving you CC mana. If mana is getting low and healers have lots have two be tanked once they are slowed saving the mez mana.

We have a multitude of debuffs?

I must be looking in the wrong spellbook!

Although, I guess they didnt specify *useful* debuffs..

Anyway, yea enchanters should get some mana regen on a self only buff, everyone else does.

Tia

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>When I fought in BoT I did dispell+tash+slow, waiting long enough before the tash to not get agro. For adds it was dispell + mez, or dispell + tash + mez, then slow. For the mob being tanked another class can do the dispell saving you some mana as well. From my experience dropping a mob's melee attack rate in two steps instead of one works out because dispell is more reliable than slow and it has a less agro. Also more classes can dispell than can slow. A mana preservation III item works well since it saves on tash (if you use a pre-50 one), slow and dispell. The quicker mobs are doing less damage the less healing used and the more mana healers have for other things like nukes and dots which make the fights go faster saving you CC mana. If mana is getting low and healers have lots have two be tanked once they are slowed saving the mez mana.[/quote]

Interesting.....why use dispell? I've charmed a few dozen mobs in BoT and have done a /pet report on them and none of them have had anything more than Tash/Mala on them or maybe a snare.

Pre PoP, I thought chanters were gods, although they also died more than any class.

PoP is a big nerf for chanters.

But all classes 61+ spells are mana hogs. They were designed that way to stop people with FT 15, VoQ, SD, +100 mana items and other stuff from being able to chain cast.

The funniest thing was when I tried to cast Blessing of the Nine naked and found out with full mana bar I didn't have enough mana to cast it :)

"PoP is a big nerf for chanters."

I've played an enchanter since EQ's release, now I have 65 levels and even more AAs. I don't believe that. We're much more powerful in some areas.

An average level 61 enchanter has roughly double the hit points of a level 60 enchanter, without getting a single piece of new gear (because of runes). Double! That's the opposite of a nerf.

At level 60 the level limits on mezzes were really constraining, even blues were sometimes too high to mez. By 65 we can mez yellows, and even the rare red. Same with charms.

And then there's our new DPS role... at 65 with PoP (and LoY) changes I can nuke at raids for at least four to five times as much damage as I could at level 60, and not risk stealing aggro from the main tank. That doesn't even count the addition of partial resists on our damage spells and the revamp of spell resists in general, which happened last year. That's without gear changes... with focus effects and AAs it could be six times as much. And even more with an animation... a commandable level 58 pet is vastly different than an uncontrollable level 45 pet.

All the areas listed above were important and significant weaknesses of the class that needed to be addressed... and they were. But those fixes came at a price, and that price was crowd control. That must be what you're thinking of when you think of nerfed enchanters. Specifically:

We lost our stuns outright. Other classes can stun nicely in PoP, but enchanters totally lost two whole spell lines in PoP.

Resists and charm breaks are a bit more common, due to fighting even con mobs instead of low blues. That's not a nerf of the class, just changing circumstances. But I mention it because of the next item.

Mez spells cost 3 or even 4 times as much mana as they used to. Couple that with resist rates, and the mana cost on mez is really scary. Even with AAs, focus items, flowing thought, new clarity spells, and the inherent bonuses to being 65, I can only keep one mob mezzed indefinitely. If I have to keep two mobs asleep, it's just a matter of time until I run out of mana. And the scenario described above (using almost all your mana to control a three pull) is pretty accurate.

And finally... crowd control means getting hit. PoP mobs hit so hard that even with our runes and other improvements we can die faster than ever before. That by itself would make crowd control impractical even if none of the other changes occured.

Enchanters do miss crowd control in a big way... for most of us that was the whole point of choosing the class. Now we have exactly the same buff/debuff/dps role as shamans and do crowd control no better than bards. But that's not a nerf per se, just a change. Some enchanters quit, others adapted.

Now I am a newbie for chanters, but why don't you see more chanters using,

Scryer's Trespass
Decrease Mana by 50 per tick
Recast Time: 200
Classes: ENC/52
Duration: 1 min

+ this recourse

Scryer's Trespass R.
Increase Mana by 50 per tick

Now since there "supposed" to be alot more casters in LoDN. Why not ask for a 60+ spell and a lower reuse timer on both the 52 and (if you can get it) the 60+?

But then again, as I said, I am a newbie at being an enchanter.

The only really problem with Scryer's is the recast time. If you're really on the ball, casting Scryer's every 3 1/2 minutes, and never get resisted, you gain about 14 mana per tick. Of course you're usually busy slowing, or too distracted to watch constantly for the spell gem to ungrey, or get resisted, or accidentally cast it on a melee mob, or you're fighting ALL melee mobs, or whatever... so in practice it isn't really much better than Pot9.

Would you like 9 as much as you do if it took a permanent spell slot (can't unmem it between casts) and you had to recast it every 4 minutes, and it was self-only? I didn't think so.

Yeah we could ask for improvements to Scryer's instead of a whole new self-only mana regen. That could work. But when it comes to making wish lists, we tend to ask for things that don't take up a permanent spell slots first. Maybe that's greedy, but finding a way to live with seven spell slots instead of eight is harder than you might think.

The staff I've spoken to at least seems sympathetic, if amused at the thought of enchanters needing anything. I agree with them on many points, and those of you who have watched the previous 8 incarnations of this monthly letter, have noticed that we've streamlined quite a bit and are asking for more reasonable things imo. EQ is a constantly changing and evolving game, and I don't want to see any of my friends feel left out because their class doesnt seem on par anymore, unless their a beastlord... those fooks are overpowered atm.

Druids debuffs/dots whatever the hell they are... are soooooo confusing, stacking orders and what not, a druid friend showed me a chart from here somewhere that showed how they all worked, and I spent several days (yeah i have no life) RL time arguing with raw data from lucy about them. Im not a math wiz, but it made my head hurt. Another of our druids seemed to be under the impression that if he could find the right combination of debuffs, it didnt matter anything else... the mob would just fall over and die (probly in amusement at someone actually figuring it out).

Scryers is a good spell, just so few mobs in PoP that have mana, even in time. Would be VERY useful as a AA, but having to keep a spell slot on such a low refresh spell is the suck.

Also heard a rumor down the pipe... Xmas/New Years, raid expansion, 5 levels, tons of AA's... can anyone confirm???

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>warriors arent doing so bad, still a bit of a taunt issue, but super taunt with their mean dps (currently rivaling the other pure melees) would trivialize alot of encounters (go go defensive/evasive). Their biggest beef is probly the hp gap is closing[/quote]

I only wish we were that well off.

Quick note that hybrids generate supertaunt themselves.... and it's arguably trivialized XP groups. Either they need nerfed or warriors need upgraded...

The problem with warriors is not taunt, taunt only rides tother people's hate list after the warrior loses aggro. No, the problem with warriors is that it is the only class that cannot generate its aggro when necessary, it has to rely on luck.

Warriors also have the lowest DPS of any class with a damage role, with the exception of paladins.

Warriors have been given no new tools or abilities to do thier job since Kunark (with the notable exception of Enraging Blow way back in Velious), which is the caster equivalent of getting no new spells in the same time period. (and when I speak about these things, I'm not speaking about AA's, which require the very highest of levels, PLUS additional experience over and above the that level to get something.. IE AE taunt, sure warriors get it, but it's what, level 65, plus 18AA prerequisite before you can touch it?) Other'n that, all warriors have gotten is gear with better numbers on it. Other'n that the warrior job back in the very beginning of the game was: Show up, hit autoattack, loose aggro, mash taunt, get aggro back, then go AFK till it's time to hit autoattack again. 6 expansions later, and we're still showing up, hitting autoattack, loosing aggro, mashing taunt, getting aggro back, and going afk till it's time to hit autoattack again. I tell ya, the excitement just kills me.

Warriors remain utterly dependant on raid level weapons (with the sole exception of the terrible ratio GSoT with a stun proc) to generate the aggro they are expected to. In many situtations they are forced to use inferioor damage and stat weapons to generate aggro, as they are tied to aggro procs, while other classes are free to choose weapons based on damage and stats, free to choose procs of any one they like, as they aren't tied to the aggro procs.


Here's what I see warriors needing:

An ability to generate aggro on demand, inferior to hybrid abilities, but still significant. 200-400hate every 30 seconds isn't unreasoable, IM0

A complete revamp of disciplines, and adding disciplines from lkevel 60-65 (which should have been done with PoP along with adding those 5 levels of spells for the casters), to give warriors an actual reason to use disciplines other than defensive... this disc revamp should be for all pure melee

The addition of new abilities, much like the new spells that are given to casters each expansion, pure melee should be thrown some new bone of a toy as well, every expansion.

And what I would dearly love but don't hold my breath for... is to actually get some sort of versatility, some other toys to break the monotony.

<<"Yeah but enchanter get KEI!" The answer is that "in this day and age everyone else does also". Everyone has KEI and their own regen.>>

Just nitpicking here but that statement is not entirely true. Necromancers are exempt from stacking KEI with our mana regeneration buff (ie the Lich line).

I also disagree with alot of their statement upon Necromancers but that really is not an issue which should be addressed here. I do agree with the loot itemization in Time thou, you can tell SoE really did not plan it out well.

Bril

As a level 65, non-uber chanter what I would really like is the ability to transfer my mana to others.

I know if done wrong this could be very unbalancing, but even if it worked like a DoT, and gave your target 5 per tic, and I lost 10 per tic it would be nice. I was always amazed that necros could do this over chanters.

As for having enough mana for CC post 60... I generally do not have an issue. I can keep a charmed pet in places like Tactics, BoT, or HoH and control double pulls all day long. Charm is VERY expensive, yet I do not have huge problems.

With C5 I prolly have 4300 mana. I run at FT4 is all, but have mental clarity 3. Run with BoT9 normally. Been in BoT where we had 4 or 5 mobs pulled into camp and if I did not have to slow I could control them all, weild pet, and even manage another add or two (using Bliss exclusively). Sure, I end fights like that somewhat low on mana, but normally the next few pulls will be singles and in no time im back in action just fine... no downtime just sitting medding.

Oh, and Scryers Tresspass is a pretty nice spell really. Like someone mentioned, it would have been a sweet AA tho instead. And I still want a mana transfer line of spells.

Cily

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Locking down a single add uses alot of mana when stuns are no longer an option and Sleep or Bliss are the mezzes required.[/quote]

About 28 mana/tick per add with SCM3 and MP4.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>A chanter slowing in BoT, HoH or CoD can quickly decimate half their mana on a single engagement if they get unlucky resists, have to Boggle and reRune and it does happen often enough. Of course, half of one chanter's mana may only be a third or fourth of another who has raid gear to use in the group environment.[/quote]

Flowing thought matters more than mana pool.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>But since Sony has stated that the vast majority of players will not see the elemental planes, I think the average Joe chanter's gear is appropriate to assume.[/quote]

You can have FT 15 and be quite far from the elemental planes.

Lets say you are a very keen player, who gets all the best buyable gear. You also have a small guild that can field 3 groups of about L 60 players for quests.
FT 3 neck (Arcane)
FT 3 shoulders (Shawl)
FT 3 boots (Slimy)
FT 2 bracers x 2 (ornate)
FT 1 range (soloable quest)
Throw in a small bit of raiding:
FT 3 crown (cursed halo)

FT 17.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Only two mana classes can come back from a rez FM. Clerics (divine rez) and enchanters (gather mana). Not that it has anything to do with anything. Just pointing it out.[/quote]

Clerics can Divine Rez anyone. =p~

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>most mobs dont have mana, they use procs, very limited situation, but granted they do exist, but this isnt a buff, its a spell slot wasted in most cases.[/quote]

In BoT, I can use it for a good 10 mana/tick over time.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I played a Chanter hard into the 50's and I've been playing a L65 Chanter on the side in groups and in raids for about four months and since I got him SCM3 and can't think of single time I've ever thought to myself -- sheesh, I need more mana.[/quote]

Agreed. =)

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Try having two militis add when your group is in the middle of fighting a Kriger that you have had resist 3 slows and have debuffed with three debuffs.....2 Bliss's at 300+ mana a pop every 54 seconds, +2 tash, +2 roots, +2 slows........mana goes down the drain fast with level 60+ CC.[/quote]

Tash is free.

Don't use bliss. Bliss is a silly spell in BoT, use Sleep, it is cheaper and just as good.

2 adds is 56 mana/tick down the tubes via Sleep. Tash is neglidgeable. Root is optional, but it costs < 4 mana/tick to keep it up on a mob, so why not.

That's 64 mana/tick. VoQ(1:cool: +FT3(3)+MC1(1)+medding half the time (12)+L 65 (3) is....
37 mana/tick.

Net drain of 27 mana/tick. Starting at 2000 mana, you are 7 minutes from wipe.

...

Of course, add in cabbage, and you are up to 9 minutes from wipe.

The hard part will be slowing those adds really. And dealing with the charm break. And recasting arcane rune. And rebuffing that haste.

But, if you are slowing, CCing, Charming for DPS, and hasting, really, you are doing too much. Grab someone LFG who can lighten your load.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Maybe his experience isn't typical? *shrug*[/quote]

It changed in PoP.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>My experience with chanters in PoP is their mana usage went way, way up. At level 60-62 (I think that was the levels) their mez was particularly expensive, it's been awhile now. I used the self-rune and Boggle a ton, and I think that's probably a lot of it.[/quote]

Ayep.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Resists and charm breaks are a bit more common, due to fighting even con mobs instead of low blues. That's not a nerf of the class, just changing circumstances. But I mention it because of the next item.[/quote]

Part of this was the resist revamp that happened a few months before PoP. It made mobs never nearly never resist our spells, then PoP came with its even cons. . .

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> Now I am a newbie for chanters, but why don't you see more chanters using,[/quote]

First, because many areas have no casters, or they are rare.

Second, because it uses a spell slot, and that is EXPENSIVE.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> And I still want a mana transfer line of spells.[/quote]

Never. Never ever suggest a mana transfer line of spells.

Ask mages.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Kind of like giving a class an epic with a haste boost that does not stack with the eyepatch of plunder that anyone can get.[/quote]

Um, joke? Monks epic "stacks" with eyepatch insofar as both effects stay up. They are both spell haste, so their haste doesn't add.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Flowing thought matters more than mana pool.[/quote]
Over time it does. During an engagement, a mana pool of 6000 vs one of 3800 is a more decisive difference.
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>You can have FT 15 and be quite far from the elemental planes.[/quote]
FT 15 was achievable before PoP and only scratches the surface of the gear benefits that the average Joe Chanter does not enjoy.

I'd say FT 5ish is probably reasonably acheivable for non-raiders. Maybe ornate armor adds to that considerably? I quit playing before acquiring any for my casters.

"Never. Never ever suggest a mana transfer line of spells.

Ask mages."

If the mana transfer worked like a DoT with a very long duration it would not be like sitting around summoning 100 mod rods.

And why would I ask mages, when necros are the ones with true mana transfer. Most necro's do not get stuck mana pumping in normal situations, why would you think we would?

And hell, even if that did happen, at least I get to push a button and help a raid in some fashion, instead of doing nothing.

Cily