View Full Forums : Druid Issue List Update - Any Suggestions?


Scirocco
02-28-2005, 10:48 PM
Here's the current list. Anything you think ought to be taken out and replaced with something else?

About the only thing I can think of to add are the pitiful DoN spells we have, especially in comparison to the other classes. I will pare down the OoW spell issues to Glacier's Breath (and Eci), with some backup data showing how it compares to other debuffs (per the thread here).


1. Improve our healing abilities (currently being evaluated) - Most likely this will be considered as part of the class re-envisioning

Specific examples:

- allow Healing Gift to apply to TR and KR
- remove % caps on TR/KR
- increase maximum amount healed by TR/KR (some percentage of CH) (increase shaman percentage heal to match)
- slightly lower levels at which mid-level heals are obtained
- need for faster casting quick heals (faster than 2 second cast time)



2. 1.5 and 2.0 Epic Effect (revised)

- remains underpowered/unbalanced with no healing effect (which should exist in addition to the current effect, as with the other priest epic effects)
- the cast range is too small, and should be the same range as a druid nuke

Compare:

Shaman (Boon of Farseer):
10: Critical Damage Mob(70)
11: Chance to Critical Hit(50)
12: Increase Hitpoints v2 by 400 per tick

Cleric (Harmonic Balance):
1: Balance Party Health (0% penalty)
2: Increase Hitpoints by 1500
3: Remove Detrimental(9)

Druid (Nature's Blight):
1: Increase Incoming Spell Damage by 5%
2: Limit: Max Level(70)
3: Limit: Effect(Hitpoints allowed)
4: Limit: Instant spells only
5: Limit: Spell Type(Detrimental only)
6: Limit: Target(AE PC v1 excluded)
7: Limit: Target(PB AE excluded)
8: Limit: Target(Targeted AE excluded)
9: Limit: Target(Uber Giants excluded)
10: Limit: Target(Uber Dragons excluded)
11: Limit: Combat Skills Not Allowed


Even if Nature's Blight worked, it would underpowered compared to the (unresistable) click effects of the shaman and cleric. If kept, the current effect should be 10% or 15%, in light of the short duration. Likewise, it should affect all damage-dealing spells (DoTs, etc.)

In any event, some additional effects that are more group friendly would be ideal (especially as the current effect appears aimed primarily at the raiding druid). These also would address the dual nature of druids (nukers and healers). Some suggested additional effects:

Increase chance to crit 10%
Increase group HP by 400 per tick
Increase group mana by 400 per tick
Increase damage to all damage spells 15%
Recourse: Increase healing 20%
Increase heal crits 10%
Group HoT + Mitigation
Group HoT + Dodge
3. OoW Spell Issues (Currently being discussed)

a. Tempest Wind: mana cost far too high, should be 622 instead of 810.

The last two druid rain spells:

Winter's Storm: 850 dam x 3, 500 mana
Tempest Wind: 1168 dam x 3, 810 mana (currently)

Compared to the last two wizard rain spells:

Tears of Marr: 850 dam x 3, 425 mana
Gelid Rains: 1168 dam x 3, 529 mana

Damage for both went up 37.4%. The wizard mana cost went up 24.5%, for a slight increase in efficiency (consistent with all nukes). However, the druid mana cost went up 62%, greatly decreasing mana efficiency. Using the wizard % increase in mana cost, the druid mana cost for Tempest Wind should be 622 mana.

b. Glacier Breath: current resist check 0, 312 mana, decrease CR by 55, decrease AC by 29; compare this to Eci : resist check 0, 250 mana, decrease CR by 55, decrease AC by 25 --> 62 more mana gets only a negligible -4 decrease in AC!

- CR should be increased to 65 or 70 with substantial resist adjust to match fire debuffs (and possible decrease in mitigation or other effects); or the spell should just be replaced.

c. Upgrade to Karana's Rage is missing: this is the druid targeted AoE nuke; level 62, 450 mana, 1100 damage to four targets in limited area, outdoors only. It is the characteristic "thunderstorm" spell for the druid worshipping the destructive aspect of natural forces. It should have the same % increase in damage and mana that the other AE spells of wizards, mages, and druids (aside from the abnormal cost of the druid rain spell): 37.4% increase in damage, 24.5% increase in mana. Level 67 or 68 spell.

d. Lion's Strength: getting overwritten by disc's that increase damage, like Innerflame.

4. Fix resist mods on cold debuffs to match corresponding fire debuffs (currently being evaluated)

- note change to incorporate OoW spell as well as E'ci (currently being evaluated)

5. Charm issues (currently being evaluated)

- increase CoT cap to match new min. hynid levels in Vxed and Tipt (druids used to be able to charm the lower level animals there, but the recent revamping of those zones to increase XP by boosting mob levels stopped that)

- need mobs to charm with OoW charm upgrade spell: remove uncharmable block on animals in previous expansions; add animals of suitable level in OoW.

- tag mobs that should be animals as animals (suggested list of mobs by zone being prepared)

6. Harmony issues (currently being evaluated)

- remove outdoor restriction on harmony (no change planned at this time)

- the aggro/assist radii for harmony should match pacify

- need upgraded harmony with higher level cap --> OoW spell should not have outdoor restriction since it no longer has any advantage over any other lull/pacify spell.

7. Snare issues (currently being evaluated)

- druids should share Entrap as AA skill (druids share Innate Camo and similar skills with rangers, and druids get various snares before rangers get comparable spells) (An entrap type AA may be added for druids in the future but there is no plan to do so right now.) - Some abilities may be shared between classes but not all are intended to be shared.

- upgrade to AoE snare with resist modifier and greater speed reduction (so it is not overwritten)

- fewer immune mobs

8. More shape changing forms and ideally special abilities for each (currently being evaluated)


9. Wolf form problems (currently being evaluated)

10. Improved run speed (currently being evaluated)

- "Spirit of Horse": faster SoW closer to run speed of higher end horse or base Selo's, with or without lev effects (floating effect of FoE causes motion sickness, excessive lag for many players)

- faster SoW; indoor SoW

- revised Spirit of Cheetah spell (druid only, longer duration, no long recast time)

Netura
02-28-2005, 10:54 PM
A large problem of mine (maybe its just me...) is that in indoor zones where I am unable to use a horse (especially RS and to a degree MPG), I drain mana at an extremely fast rate. If I had the bonus mana regen of a horse I would be able to sustain my mana for a much longer period of time; in places like this clerics have the yaulp line for some mana, and as always shaman have their canni leaving them at full mana. Maybe something to help druids?

This however is an experience group only concern, as when raiding in these places I don't have mana issues.

Remi
03-01-2005, 12:11 AM
Well, we have a new expansion and OOW is close to 6 months old. So, I'd like the 69-70 spells to be made droppable for all classes. 6 months of casting single target Oak skin is getting to be really old. :p

Palarran
03-01-2005, 12:27 AM
3a was fixed a while back (mana cost set to 623).

Cassea
03-01-2005, 04:48 PM
As posted on the SOE board:

We need a 90% res if SOE wants us to be main "2nd best" healers in a game with so many classes. Having said this and knowing what an uphill battle this would be as it would upset SOE's fav class - the cleric - I second the thought in the prior post that Call to Corpse MUST be given well before level 70 - Tell SOE that those Druids under level 70 raid too http://eqforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I suggest taking every suggestion that has been "tabled" by SOE with the lame "evaluating it" and place it at the bottom under things being evaluated. Why keep up things for months (years?) that SOE has tabled? The Class Re-envisioning was finished 3-4 months ago, OOW evaluating was apparently done enough to release another expansion.

What I propose for the Druids and every other class in EQ is to remove all Update Lists and place a single line at the top until SOE wakes up....

--------------------------------------------------------------------

ALL [INSERT CLASS NAME HERE] ISSUES HAVE BEEN REMOVED UNTIL SUCH A TIME AS SOE DECIDES TO REOPEN LINES OF COMMUNICATION WITH THE PLAYERS. THE [INSERT CLASS NAME HERE] PLAYERS UNDERSTAND THAT ANY "WISH" LIST OF IDEAS CANNOT ALL BE IMPLEMENTED BUT THE CURRENT STATE OF ZERO COMMUNICATION WITH THE PLAYERS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE. ONCE SOE RE-OPENS COMMUNICATION WITH THE PLAYERS WE WILL ONCE AGAIN POST OUR THOUGHTS AND IDEAS THAT WE THINK COULD ENHANSE THE [INSERT CLASS NAME HERE] CLASS.

-LOYAL MEMBERS OF THE [INSERT CLASS NAME HERE] COMMUNITY

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Why even pretend anymore. The ball is in SOE's court and it has been for a LONG time. They dropped the ball so they have to pick it up again. Until that happens why hold up this charade that SOE communicates with the players?

-Cass

Miegre Nature'Dancer
03-01-2005, 05:15 PM
Read my posts on the Greenvale Jerkin (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=32305) & Nature's Proving (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=6386) ... fairly minor and only applies to folks that have the BP, but it is a helluva crappy BP atm, except for the stats.

EDIT: In comparing it to only the BST effect Wild Spirit Infusion (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=6382) we got shafted badly IMO.

rondor
03-01-2005, 06:12 PM
How about upgrading the pet spell. Baby bear is cute but a Druid, being a friend of nature and all, should be able to summon a bear based upon the Druids level.

Netura
03-01-2005, 06:51 PM
We need a 90% res if SOE wants us to be main "2nd best" healers in a game with so many classes
Oh lord please no. If SoE wants us to be 2nd best healers in the game, then increase our healing potential. Rezzing does not equal healing. Call of the Wild is more than enough of a useful utility for me.

Cassea
03-01-2005, 07:31 PM
Resing would allow Druids to take the place of a cleric in a single group. Without the res the group still needs another class that can res.

While I would much prefer that they gave us another skill to bring to a group or return much of our lost utility that they gave away during that past few expansions it seems that SOE and the players want us to be real healers.

A real healer needs to be able to perform all the rolls in one of the siz spots in a group so yes we need a res,a real HoT and some better agg management.

Clerics will remain the preferred healers for the better variety of heals, a 96% res, better mana-healing ratio etc.... but just like a Paly or SK can step in when a warrior is not available, the 2nd best healer should be able to step in when a cleric is not available and so far the answer is no. (and at level 64 I do not have call to corpse so that ability at level 70 does nothing for me in the least - having something to bring to a group so I can get to level 70 would help LOL)

No one wants a 90% res really. Ask the palys how often they cast it vs players wanting a 96% res. This res would allow a group to venture into dangerous content far off the beat and path with a druid as main healer. The group takes a death... ACK! but at least a 90% res, while not preffered, would be acceptable.

You are correct in saying that just s 90% res would not be enough. We still lack the ability to heal in the harder content and giving us a res is not enough. We neet a HoT so we can keep two people healed at once as well as some form of aggro management that would keep them off of us while healing.

If the tank takes damage faster than we can heal then it's game over.

All this is moot as SOE is not listening to us. A snare? With all the issues of the Druid Class and the best they can come up with is a snare?

THIS is the real problem and not which types of spells or abilities "we" think we need. The problem is that, by past and present action or lack thereof, SOE thinks Druids are fine as is.

Are we?

-Cass

Gaminide
03-02-2005, 04:14 AM
How about upgrading the pet spell. Baby bear is cute but a Druid, being a friend of nature and all, should be able to summon a bear based upon the Druids level.

Booboo is lonely and wants to go out and play withj Yogi :biggrinfl

Nadjaiskeniskie
03-02-2005, 06:05 AM
I would be happy with just three things:

1. Entrap AA (or fix our DoN snare to make it worthwhile).
2. Illusion: Bear Cub* (preferably as an AA - for use as clicky shrink) :thumbup:
3. Group invis that is permanent duration.

Everthing else can stay as it is.

- Nad

* would be easy to implement as well - just use our pet model as the illusion given.

Cassea
03-02-2005, 09:34 AM
Now that I'm of a more level head I can suggest:

1. Move Call to Corpse down to at least 65 so more Druids can use it - Druids under level 70 raid also :)

2. We need a HoT. The easy route would be to amend Natures Recovery (in line with other regen upgrades) from 30 per tick to 60. Pick one:

Current Form: 3 mins of 30 per tick

Suggestion:

1. 3 mins of 60 per tick
2. 1 min of 120 per tick (better)

3. Epic 1.0 - Possible, due to the changing nature of the game, to change the DOT effect from a 3 min 65 damage per tick to either:

1. 2 Mins at 100 per tick
2. 1 Min at 150 per tick
3. 3 mins at 65 per tick but cast time lowered to 5 seconds.

The 3 min duration is too long and the damage is too low in todays game for the long cast time involved.

4. Port to Succor: Single player cast (that would not take the Druid) to the Succor or Eggress point. Nice for raids, nice for groups with a member needing to leave. Does not step on any toes - win-win

5. Res (I've posted my reasons before)

1. 40% res, level 60, once every 10 mins,
2. 60% res, level 65, once every 10 mins,
3. 90% res, level 70, once every 10 mins, (this replaces Call to Corpse)

Yes many of these are new things but the old stuff has been left up for so long I do not think they are going to touch these although I think they are very valid concerns.

-Cass

Netura
03-02-2005, 10:22 AM
They won't change epic 1...and its not a change we should be fighting for. If anything should be changed it should be 1.5 to a group beneficial effect.

I wish there was a way to upgrade NR so it was useful, however, considering the level 59 cleric HoT is 300hp/tick, and the 67 is 1170/tick, NR with any amount of upgrading is still useless and minor in comparison. NR for me is useful in duels with people who I know don't dispel, and I think I have used it on maybe 1 raid in the past 2 years.

1. Entrap AA (or fix our DoN snare to make it worthwhile).
2. Illusion: Bear Cub* (preferably as an AA - for use as clicky shrink)
3. Group invis that is permanent duration.
I agree with the Entrap AA, disagree with fixing DoN snare...we should have a useful spell like some other classes (bard, beastlord, shaman, necro, etc)
Illusion Bear Club would be very cool as a toy, and if it were an AA would be nice to have some additional secondary effects (maybe Mana regen, and should also stack with the mask line)
I think that our new invis that is single target is more than enough for this. Considering the lowish cast time and the fact that the most people you will be hitting is 5 other people its really not that cumbersome to invis everyone single target style.

Matren
03-02-2005, 11:02 AM
Make the DoN spells worth half of a ****.

Miegre Nature'Dancer
03-02-2005, 12:07 PM
Thing is, if we start getting HoTs and rezzes, then we are (essentially): Porting, nuking, snaring, fire/cold/AC-ATK debuffing, SoW/SoEing, ManaRegen/AC/HP buffing, DS casting, Animal charming, & Egressing Clerics/Pallies...

I agree the pet should be worth while, Little Bear is not worth the mana unless farming spiderling silks or for people wanting a companion, especially since our short duration pet haste blows.

3. Epic 1.0 - Possible, due to the changing nature of the game, to change the DOT effect from a 3 min 65 damage per tick to either:

1. 2 Mins at 100 per tick
2. 1 Min at 150 per tick
3. 3 mins at 65 per tick but cast time lowered to 5 seconds
Nature Walkers Scimitar (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=3571) is 55 per tick, not 65. But yes I agree on the faster cast time, or maybe even an unresistable/hard to resist casting so that if your root breaks on a solo with the long 9 second cast and your mob comes after you it still lands. Not sure if our resist AAs, stun resist gear, etc. cover this at all, but I am sure it helps.

I also agree with the duration or damage... Shamans get nearly twice as much damage (in the 1.4 minute duration they have they get a little over 1400 damage, where we get about 800ish). We are both DoTing classes, but Shamans already get better DoTs than us (correct me if I am wrong though, do not play a Shaman).


I would write more, and have more on my mind, but I need to run out the door :buttrock:

Aelfin
03-02-2005, 12:43 PM
perhaps consider making the list only a top 3 or 4.

with 10 items, sony can pick a less important one and say "see! we have done something for the druids"

oh look! they gave us a snare! surely that handles #7.

as much as it saddens me, the current dev team has made their position on soloing quite clear. drop all soloing issues. drop all "fun" issues. concentrate on the 3 or 4 things that would make us valuable to a group with maybe one thrown in that makes us valuable to a raid.

i'm open to just about anything. gimme a crazy burst heal. a HoT. a more efficient CH. gimme a nuke that can match a mage. gimme an 80% rez. gimme a 45% slow. gimme an atk debuff that seriously lowers a mob's atk ability and lowers the minimum hit. get rid of the indoor restriction nonsense. hell, let epic 1.5 stop the rain without a reagent, even that would be more useful than the current effect. allow me to fill in the role of another class. let me shapeshift to cat form and do 75% rogue dps. oh wait. sorry. that's WoW.

Cassea
03-02-2005, 01:27 PM
I wonder if pairing down the list will give SOE an excuse to say... "See - the Druids do not have many issues at all"

IMHO we need to concentrate on one aspect of the game.

Do we want to be "real" healers or return back to the Druid of old - Fill-In Class?

You know they will not allow us to be both.

If we move to a real healer then we need a HoT and Res.
If we want to return to the Druid of old we need utility spells to help groups/raids.

Which do we want? IMHO the rest of the game (due to a shortage of healers) want us to be main healers but do we want this?

Do we have a choice? LOL

-Cass

Juniper
03-02-2005, 01:29 PM
I'd rather see the DoN spells tweaked than have a bear pet that I've never casted be adjusted. All that will happen is I'll be able to farm spider silks more effectively /fingertwirl.

3. 90% res, level 70, once every 10 mins, (this replaces Call to Corpse)

Don't confuse Call to Corpse with the druid/shaman AA. Call to Corpse is a Necromancer AA that has an insane reset timer and functions in a different manner than Call of the Wild. CotW is fine the way it is and brings a great deal of utility to the class.

As far as dot damage is concerned, you could ask for an increase in overall damage without it being an issue for other dot classes.

Scirocco
03-02-2005, 02:38 PM
I would violently protest any attempt to turn us into "real healers."

When I signed on as a druid in EQ, it was as a storm wizard with some adjunct healing powers and the ability to get around fairly quickly in the game world. That has largely held true for most of the game.

I have absolutely no desire to be the "primary healer" in a group or on a raid. There is a reason I do not play a druid in EQ2 or WoW.

Hayleey
03-02-2005, 02:54 PM
- allow Healing Gift to apply to TR and KR

I would even be willing to spend extra aa for this ability. O and a upgrade to KR would be nice =P When im stuck on rot with clerics, I feel like im putting a Snoopy bandaid on someone who just had there eye gouged out with a rusty spoon.

Cassea
03-02-2005, 03:25 PM
I would violently protest any attempt to turn us into "real healers."

When I signed on as a druid in EQ, it was as a storm wizard with some adjunct healing powers and the ability to get around fairly quickly in the game world. That has largely held true for most of the game.

I have absolutely no desire to be the "primary healer" in a group or on a raid. There is a reason I do not play a druid in EQ2 or WoW.
I would agree with you. I would much rather return to the days when we were half wizard and half cleric but the game has changed and half of anything just will not cut it.

We need at least 75% of anything.

At this stage of the game would SOE allow us to become 75% Wizard and 25% Cleric? If you could talk SOE into this I'm with you 100%!

I'm a realist and it seems we are being forced down the path of a main healer. When asked to group I'm asked to heal and toss nukes if mana permits. If I'm going to be asked on a regular basis to heal then I want the tools to do so.

Please do not misunderstand that when I say we need a 90% res and a HoT that "I" want to be a cleric. I just want a purpose and right now groups and raids want healing.

So if I'm going to remain playing EQ1 I need to be able to group and raid. If anyone and I mean anyone can talk SOE into returning Druids to what we once were then tell me where to line up and jump and stomp :)

-Cass

Matren
03-02-2005, 03:44 PM
I would violently protest any attempt to turn us into "real healers."

When I signed on as a druid in EQ, it was as a storm wizard with some adjunct healing powers and the ability to get around fairly quickly in the game world. That has largely held true for most of the game.

I have absolutely no desire to be the "primary healer" in a group or on a raid. There is a reason I do not play a druid in EQ2 or WoW.
Amen to that.

Tudamorf
03-02-2005, 03:57 PM
Is there any hope for real group heals, other than the nearly useless Spirit of the Grove? With key classes becoming scarce, druids have to be more versatile than ever.

Moklianne
03-02-2005, 05:15 PM
I still wouldn't want a HoT, but a group heal instead. Shamans and Clerics should share HoT's, while Druids and Clerics should share group heals. It would help in raids along with groups.

The percent heals we have should be upgraded, with a lower mana cost. So should the Shaman's. I would love the ability to have our percent heals crit also. That would help emensely. I would also pay extra AA for it.

While I do see where the ability to exp rez would help alot, I don't think we should get it. If I'm the main healer, I usually try to make sure there's a Pally or Necro in the group. I suppose having an insane refresh on it wouldn't be bad, but the masters of rez have been and always should be Clerics, IMO.

Miegre Nature'Dancer
03-02-2005, 05:24 PM
I think we should be able to buy AAs to raise our "CH" ability, or even crit on a CH (insofar as I know the only crit ability we have is on our spot/splurt heals correct?). I can CH most any groupable mobs if I have a good enough slower, good enough tank, and enough DPS to take the mobs down fast.

What stinks is that if I don't get the heal cast fast enough (basically just as or just before the MT starts to get pummeled on) I end up having to resort to splurt heals unless I have another DRU or a SHM spot while I land a "CH". While our crappy CH is a mana hog, having to splurt all the way through a mob is death to the mana pool.

I can normally go without having to stop pulls and med if I have:
1. Casting mobs and a NEC
2. CV on
3. An SK tanking and siphoning once or twice.

Otherwise I have to med after a few pulls, which sucks. With two Druids we are okay, one meds/nukes and one heals. But then you lose out on a spot for extra DPS... /shrug

I don't think there is one perfect solution that will make everyone happy. Give us a few extra things and some DRUs will cry that they needed something else ... give us a few other things instead and another set of DRUs will cry. Give us anything at all and other classes will whine and cry...

WhatToDo?

Penasi
03-02-2005, 06:24 PM
What's wrong with slanting druids towards primary healers? Lets put it in perspective.

Tanks - warriors, pallys, SK's

Slowers - chanties, shammies (and to a lessor degree BST and bard)

DPS - wizzie, rogue, necro, bst, mage

Healers - clerics & druids (shammies too - but not as main healer).

I may have missed a class or 2 - but u get my point. Moving druids away from being a main healing class will make grouping more and more difficult for the entire server. For those of you who play to solo - I can see why you don't like that. But EQ was made to be a social game. Interaction with other ppl is what makes this game fun. Grouping is the method EQ uses to promote this entertainment. It's a function of the game. If you want to solo - XBox might be a better fit for you.

Changing druids back to more of a utility class will hurt the overall gaming experience for everyone - us included. Healers are often in short supply. We currently can be the main healer in most zones. Sometimes, we may need the help of a shammy - but normally we can handle it. Increasing our healing ability would be welcome imo. Tweaking our healing ability, say, to being able to heal reasonably well in RSS would be nice. Using RS as an example, we CAN be the primary healer there - but its tough. I normally need a shammy to help me.

A HoT would be great along with a more manna efficient CH. I think our quick heals are reasonable (2.7 seconds isn't too long). I dont need to be an equal of a cleric in everything. I can even live without an xp rezz. I little push in the right direction and I'd be happy.

If we get some healing tweeks which further define our roles - don't dismay solo'ers! I doubt they will nerf our solo'ing abilities. I don't speak for everyone - but for the 20ish druids I know and consider friends on my server - every one of them would welcome SOE to make them a more effective healer.

Most here seem to enjoy their healing abilities and want them bettered in order to allow them to group more. If that defines me - so be it. BRING IT ON!

Netura
03-02-2005, 07:58 PM
What's wrong with slanting druids towards primary healers? Lets put it in perspective.
The fact that some druids like doing damage more than healing. And I don't mean just soloing. I know that myself, and some other fellow druids appreciate the fact that we can not only help a raid with rampage healing, MA rot healing, whatever...but also parsing extremely high damage on boss fights.

Matren
03-02-2005, 08:27 PM
We shouldnt have to pay MORE AAs to be able to crit on our CH.

Tudamorf
03-02-2005, 08:44 PM
I think we should be able to buy AAs to raise our "CH" ability, or even crit on a CH (insofar as I know the only crit ability we have is on our spot/splurt heals correct?).Ridiculous; critical CH is just a toy, and is only truly useful for high HP pets. If you're relying on CH crits to power your rotation, you're going to fail anyway. In groups, you don't have the time to count on a critical CH, so you're going to cast it at the point it heals 5590, and any critical will be wasted. Since it's just eye candy, we should get it for free.

Scirocco
03-02-2005, 08:44 PM
My personal problem with slanting druids to become more of a primary healer is that I am a druid. I've been playing this same druid for just about 6 years now. And I don't want to become more of a primary healer.

While the numbers have varied over time, I'd say a good 40% (at least) of current druids consider themselves DPS first.

I have no problem with those druids that want to consider themselves healers first. And I have no problem with changes that enable them to take on that role, as long as those changes don't drag my storm wizard along with them.

There is no need to force druids in EQ into the same role that druids have in EQ 2 and WoW. Ugh.

smaktow
03-02-2005, 09:16 PM
i like to keep things straight and simple, 10 items "under consideration..." doesn't tell me diddly.

1. tell us what you are planning (and a bit of "why" would be a bonus)
2. tell us when (something a tad more specific than maybe sometime, if ever, if we get bored)
3. show us the results

if sony can do those three things, then i can respond in kind, like it, live with it, or leave it.

Nadjaiskeniskie
03-02-2005, 09:38 PM
let epic 1.5 stop the rain without a reagent I would do my epic 1.5 if the effect was that.

As far as healing / DPS arguement goes - I prefer the utility role: kinda like the 6th man* in some basketball teams (can fill a couple of different roles on the team for a short period of time whilst others rest etc.).

* Fisrt dude off the bench.

Penasi
03-02-2005, 09:56 PM
I understand where you are coming from scirroco. Druids have always been dps and healers. For us not to have our healing improved will, however, affect how often we get groups. If druids are main healers - we are one of just 2 classes that can shoulder that role. If druids are slanted to dps - we are one of 5-6 that do this. Granted - we can patch heal and offer more to the group than dps than, say, a wizard can. But realistically, when groups get put together, if all things are equal, and a group needs a replacement dps class - druids are going to be near the bottom of the list of desired classes.

Think how groups are created. You find a slower, tank and a healer. Once that is set - you fill in the blanks. Having druids unable to be a main healer will not only reduce the amount of invites we receive - but reduce the amount of groups that start in the first place.

I enjoy stepping into a dps mode as much as the next guy. When those times present themselves - I have a blast (/grin). The fact of the matter is I'm normally asked to join a group for my ability to heal - not do damage.

I believe that our dps is at its intended level. Increasing it would make druids too powerfull. Increasing our healing utility will make the game more group friendly for everyone as well as allowing druids to opporate in the role that the majority of us expect to do.

Cassea
03-02-2005, 10:05 PM
I understand where you are coming from scirroco. Druids have always been dps and healers. For us not to have our healing improved will, however, affect how often we get groups. If druids are main healers - we are one of just 2 classes that can shoulder that role. If druids are slanted to dps - we are one of 5-6 that do this. Granted - we can patch heal and offer more to the group than dps than, say, a wizard can. But realistically, when groups get put together, if all things are equal, and a group needs a replacement dps class - druids are going to be near the bottom of the list of desired classes.

Think how groups are created. You find a slower, tank and a healer. Once that is set - you fill in the blanks. Having druids unable to be a main healer will not only reduce the amount of invites we receive - but reduce the amount of groups that start in the first place.

I enjoy stepping into a dps mode as much as the next guy. When those times present themselves - I have a blast (/grin). The fact of the matter is I'm normally asked to join a group for my ability to heal - not do damage.

I believe that our dps is at its intended level. Increasing it would make druids too powerfull. Increasing our healing utility will make the game more group friendly for everyone as well as allowing druids to opporate in the role that the majority of us expect to do.
I have resigned mysefl to the fact, IMHO, we are far more likely to recieve healing (and 90% res) upgrades than for them to give us DPS equal to 75% of a Wizards.

In other words I'll fight the fight I have a chance to win. EQ needs a 2nd main healing class and we are "very" close to this already. Unless we could do 75% of a Wizards DPS we will always be last on the DPS list.

Does ANYONE have contact with SOE in any way shape or form? We need to know what SOE thinks is doable before we continue to waste our time month after month with these talks.

-Cass

Erianaiel
03-04-2005, 01:21 PM
My personal problem with slanting druids to become more of a primary healer is that I am a druid. I've been playing this same druid for just about 6 years now. And I don't want to become more of a primary healer.

While the numbers have varied over time, I'd say a good 40% (at least) of current druids consider themselves DPS first.


Personally I prefer to be both. Which is not so outrageous a thing to ask all things considered. It is just that our spell casting abilities do not stack very well. Both our heals and our nukes are primarily single target, relatively expensive manawise and not all that quick to cast. This means we can not both cast heals and nukes unless the encounter is really trivial (but then nothing druids do pretty much matters). If we would try then either of our roles is going to suffer, and likely both.
What would help here is giving a spell that is the same as our big iCH in all respects. Except that it costs twice as much mana, heals twice as much and has double the recast time. Such a spell would be for all intents and purposes exactly as powerful as our current one. It would be totally inpractical in CH chains (requiring pretty much more than half the raids to be druids chain casting this). What it would do however, is buying the druids time, in the more challenging content, to actually throw off another spell or two. Of course the aggro generated by such a monster heal is going to be insane so there is a wee bit of a problem there, but you can not have everything.
What also would help is having a line of short duration dots that also would allow a nuking druid to cast and turn attention to other matters (like (de)buffing or healing).

Of couse what I most would like to see is that druids would get the ability to increase damage output of the group in a meaningful way. It would mesh in well with the ferocious aspect of nature that druids also are an embodiment of, and it would give druids a niche role again. They would help speed things up considerably, but the price would be increased risk and more downtime.

Oh, and while we are at it, why not give our current earthquake line of spell to the mages, seeing that it is more their line of expertise, and instead turn the druids line into PBAoE heals that heal everything in radius, monsters and players alike. A spell line like that is sorely needed whenever a fight just went south and suddenly everybody is taking damage at the same time. It would hopefully keep the group alive long enough to sort out aggression again (or to evac), and the fact that it also heals monsters makes it useless for anything but emergencies. I guess though that the devs feel that the druid should just hit evac instead (and pray that those silk casters last long enough for those 10 seconds it takes).

But, I definitely would like to see an equal focus on healing and nuking in druids. Good enough to do either if necessary and the spells meshing so that they can't overpower in combination, allowing the druids a smooth(er) transition between almost complete focus on healing (with some buffs and debuffs thrown in along with perhaps a nuke) to almost complete focus on nuking (with some debuffs and buffs in and the occasional heal), as the situation demands.

Miegre Nature'Dancer
03-04-2005, 05:13 PM
Erianaiel, what you just said really does not make a whole lot of sense... I can chain nuke like crazy and not run out of mana in half the time as chain healing, even though the aggro generated would likely be a tad more. Karana's Renewal (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=3232) costs 600 mana, while my current high nuke Winter's Frost (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=3452) costs 390, so in the amount of time it would take me to go OOM on heals, I could cast nearly twice as many nukes. I do not ask them to reduce the time (or if they do, make it only by a second at the most), but would like the mana reduced or a new % heal with either a few hundred more HP restored or make it cost a couple hundred or so less mana.

Aluaeia
03-04-2005, 06:18 PM
You'll go oom far faster using burst heals than KR.

Netura
03-04-2005, 06:28 PM
Especially if you are using Chlorodrain.

Erianaiel
03-04-2005, 06:57 PM
Erianaiel, what you just said really does not make a whole lot of sense... I can chain nuke like crazy and not run out of mana in half the time as chain healing, even though the aggro generated would likely be a tad more. Karana's Renewal (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=3232) costs 600 mana, while my current high nuke Winter's Frost (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=3452) costs 390, so in the amount of time it would take me to go OOM on heals, I could cast nearly twice as many nukes. I do not ask them to reduce the time (or if they do, make it only by a second at the most), but would like the mana reduced or a new % heal with either a few hundred more HP restored or make it cost a couple hundred or so less mana.

If you chain heal you will run out of mana faster, true, but that is not the problem I was refering to. Because both druid heals and nukes are single target spells you can cast only one of them at a time. The limiting factor for druids is not so much mana as well -time-. In 3 seconds you can cast either a heal or a nuke. You can heal or damage, but unless the need for healing is not so great, you can not mix very well.
If you want druids to be able to do what the spell list suggests: switching between heals and nukes as needed then most of the time the 'not quite sufficient' druid heals require the druid to spam heals. This means that any other ability falls by the wayside. Certainly the ability to debuff or nuke is inaccessible not so much for mana considerations but simply because trying to do so will likely mean a heal will not land in time.
Now assuming that the druid class is envisioned to do a bit of both (This seems to make sense to me, otherwise what is the point in giving druids insufficient healing ability for the job if they are not meant to compensate for that lack through other abilities?), being forced to spam heal and go out of mana relatively quickly, obviously is not going to work.

So the ideas I presented are aimed at extending the time that druid heals are working. A bigger heal, even when it has a longer recast, does not improve healing at all, but simple creates time to do other things. Yes, doing so will run the druid out of mana even quicker but that is an entirely separate issue.
The same is true for having a bigger regen, or a AoE heal or other form of group heal. They all simply buy time to do other things. Like targeting and casting a bigger but slower heal. Or debuff/snare/root an add, or DS an off-tank. Things that a druid can not realistically do now (unless it is setup ahead of time), simply because all time is taken up with chain healing.
Unless things have changed yet again since Gates of Discord, the use of the complete heal spell has diminished because it is too slow for single group content and leaves too little margin for error except on the most sturdy tanks. Instead healers must rely on quick heals. I used the big iCH spell as an example because it does show how the proposed change would work out: overall the same performance, but freeing up time to cast other spells.

At the nuke side of the druid's ability the situation is much the same. In order to get any kind of meaningful damage output, compared to more dedicated damage classes (which is what you are competing against in that role!), the druid must pretty much chain cast nukes. Again, this is certainly possible but does not allow for time to do anything else.

Personally I would like to see a little more flexibility in the druid's abilities -during- a fight. I.e. having options between full out healing or full out nuking. Bigger, long durations spells help with that, without the need for actually increasing druid heals and nukes. Only the way they are delivered need to be altered. And yes, the price the druid pays is going out of mana much quicker. That is only fair. And yes, I realise that a druid can go into healing or nuking overdrive, theoretically, if they alternate between two different spells. This is limited by the amount of aggro generated and the limited mana pool. Druid spells are less mana efficient after all than those of the specialist classes, and they have no way to shed agro other than an unfeigned death or gating. Even so, it at least gives druids a reasonable option to handle a third add, even if it means pretty much blowing the entire mana pool on heals.

*shrugs*

Scirocco did ask for ideas. This, I think, would help more clearly define druid healing and nuking abilities without actually altering the current game balance, and without pidgeonholing druids into being main healer or dps class

*grins* and admit it, it does sound nice if the druid CH spells actually heals more than the cleric's one (without their crits of course), even if the HPS and HPM balance would be exactly as it is now :)

Penasi
03-05-2005, 12:05 PM
Imo, making druids a legitimate source of good dps WHILE they are main healers will totally overbalance our class. I don't see SOE ever doing this.

Juniper
03-05-2005, 01:40 PM
I think we should explore the re-development of the whole 'Storm Wardern' concept like Scirocco mentioned. I am unsure as to how to approach it.

Nimchip
03-05-2005, 02:46 PM
You'll go oom far faster using burst heals than KR.

Especially if you are using Chlorodrain.

LOL, im sorry but that made me spit my drink through my nose! hahah chlorodrain nice name rofl :)


Oh yea and I'm just wondering... Was mana reduction on heals on the list at some point? It seems our heals are huge mana drains (see new Chlorotrope name above). All our heals including TR/KR have huge mana numbers compared to others.

If it was on the list at some point, why was it removed? Was it rejected?

Erianaiel
03-05-2005, 03:36 PM
Imo, making druids a legitimate source of good dps WHILE they are main healers will totally overbalance our class. I don't see SOE ever doing this.

Possibly, but keep in mind that it would also mean that druids can cast their already expensive spells twice as fast, resulting in going OOM that much quicker. It would also generate aggro twice as fast. Can you imagine what a 12000 point heal immediately followed by an 8000 nuke would do to the druid's position on the hatelist? It probably involves *splat* fairly close to the start ...
What I would like to see is not so much doing both roles at once, except in emergencies when druids currently have no ability to deal with more than two (and that is pushing it in most high end cases) group members drawing aggro, but rather that druids can increase the damage output. If at average the damage can be increased by 5pct for all group members then that by itself would close the healing gap. 30pct more damage means a 30pct shorter fight, and thus means 30pct less incoming damage. But regardless what changes are made, unless the druid can actually take some time away from healing then no amount of additional skills are going to be of much use.

Consider this: druids have healing spells but only at 70 to 75pct of a cleric's. They also have nukes, but at 70 to 75pct of a mage's (I am guessing here, but this number was tossed around in earlier discussions). Now in encounters that are balanced around the specialists' peak performance those 70pct are not going to cut it. Even spamming their best spells they simply can't catch up. Certainly not sustain that pace. One way or the other druids need to close that gap, and it makes most sense to use the secondary role they already have for that. In other words, druids make viable group members either as nukers who toss in the occasional heal hear and there, or as healers who contribute to group damage output.
Clerics can heal in any situation.
Shamans slow down fights and through buffing, debuffing and slowing can make optimal use of their slow(er) heals and DoTs. They have group heals and HoTs to allow the group to chain pull and handle more than one fight at once.
Druids on the other hand speed up fights. They help with damage output buffs/debuffs to make up their lack of sustained peak healing. They have no group heals and only weak HoTs (in regen), so the drawback of having a druid is the increased risk and longer downtime. When no healing is required druids can switch to their alternate role and focus on nuking, in which case they can not heal effectively. Should they need to they can freely switch between those tasks. That flexibility is what druids contribute to groups (clerics can step up the healing so they offer security, and shamans can by the above definition cope well with adds).

Besides, we can always present this idea as -one- direction in which druids might gain more utility in groups without any actual change in the raw numbers. There is no need to second guess the developers and abandon ideas that they have not in the past explicitly shot down. Also, the effect of the druid epic (should it work) is a step in exactly this direction!

Mellen
03-06-2005, 05:39 AM
Small thing but I never understood it and it can be annoying at times.

Remove the 18sec recast time from our grp skin line ... no other class has that on their equivalent spell, not sure why that's there in the first place.

Megn Summer
03-06-2005, 09:04 AM
Ummm, everyone did see that the new "Class" defining spell for DoN was a High mana, slow casting and short duration SNARE?

I think its time to wake up folks. SoE doesn't care about the druid anymore. Years of erosion, giving our abilities out to other classes without even MENTIONING a compensation, and a score of other minor things have pushed druids intot he least desirable classes to play. I am not making this up, just read this board and you will see.

Any attempt to get SoE to listen to us will be met with the same respose. Si I say give them nothing! Not even an insult. Let them WONDER What is gong on. Let them actually come to US for info! (and tTHEN we can see just how interested they are)

Don't be suprised when SoE doesn't come knocking.

Iilane SalAlur
03-06-2005, 10:08 AM
Hmmm... This makes me wonder. Given that Druid are supposed to be a generalist class with a wide range of weaker abilities whereas most other classes are specialist class with a smaller but stronger number of abilities, has anyone recently checked to see if this is still the case?

That is, count the number of unique abilities (snare, fire nuke, mez, rune, slow, etc..) available to each class at level 70. Do Druids still have more abilities than other classes? Or have the specialist classes "caught up" in terms of the number of unique abilities? How much has the "ability gap" shrunk?

Cassea
03-06-2005, 10:10 AM
Ummm, everyone did see that the new "Class" defining spell for DoN was a High mana, slow casting and short duration SNARE?

I think its time to wake up folks. SoE doesn't care about the druid anymore. Years of erosion, giving our abilities out to other classes without even MENTIONING a compensation, and a score of other minor things have pushed druids intot he least desirable classes to play. I am not making this up, just read this board and you will see.

Any attempt to get SoE to listen to us will be met with the same respose. Si I say give them nothing! Not even an insult. Let them WONDER What is gong on. Let them actually come to US for info! (and tTHEN we can see just how interested they are)

Don't be suprised when SoE doesn't come knocking.
Which is why I proposed on the SOE Druid Board to just remove the top ten list and replace it with a protest message.

I fully believe that SOE will not say or do anything in response to such an action but it would make me feel a whole lot better knowing we were not playing this "pretend to care" game SOE wants us to play.

-Cass

P.S. I notice we just got yet another identical top ten list for the month of March. Sure I beleive SOE cares (insert rolling eyes)

Kamion
03-06-2005, 10:25 AM
Remove the 18sec recast time from our grp skin line ...
I second that idea

Erianaiel
03-06-2005, 04:25 PM
Hmmm... This makes me wonder. Given that Druid are supposed to be a generalist class with a wide range of weaker abilities whereas most other classes are specialist class with a smaller but stronger number of abilities, has anyone recently checked to see if this is still the case?

That is, count the number of unique abilities (snare, fire nuke, mez, rune, slow, etc..) available to each class at level 70. Do Druids still have more abilities than other classes? Or have the specialist classes "caught up" in terms of the number of unique abilities? How much has the "ability gap" shrunk?

And equally important, how much need is there in the latest expansions for a wide variety of abilities? Are encounters always the same, or will groups have to adapt to changing situations either within a fight or between. If not, then there is little point in being a generalist after all.

Mellen
03-07-2005, 03:04 AM
Another idea I had after like 3 deaths while zoning from evacs today ... put in a fading memories component to evacs.

I'm guessing the problem with evacs is when you evac you remain in world and susceptable to dmg until the next tick when you get sync'd as not being there. I think mobs check for aggro on the tick ... so I'm hoping that if a fading memories component was added to evacs on cast you would lose aggro.. mobs would turn to walk away from you until the next tick occurs at which pt they aggro as you get sync'd as not being there so they're swinging at air instead of a version of you waiting for the next tick.

Aluaeia
03-07-2005, 05:34 AM
There actually is an agro clear component to evac spells already. You may notice that when Egress 'fails' you still lose agro. And mobs agro check intervals is goofy, bards are well equipped to abuse this feature when they pull, it's quite amusing to watch.

Omnidain
03-11-2005, 03:40 AM
Just a few things that are bugging me

1. Rangers get more AA mana regen then Druids? -Druids get Mental Clarity 3 and can rais FT to 20 with AA's and items,Rangers on the otherhand get Mental Clarity 2 can also rais FT to 20 with AA's and items but also get an AA calld Body and Mind wich gives a +5 to HP and Mana regen giving Rangers 4 more mana regen then Druids

2. The DoN snare? - just seems worthless to me (a 3min snare wich slows movement by 45% when the mobs are running at Bard speed, with Spell haste and Extended range I have no chance of out running a mob eaven with the lvl 29 snare for 56% and 14 min duration,A 45% snare seems worthless against these mobs and 3min is barely enough time to kill one mob let alone if you have more then one on a kite)

3. Instead of a snare at 69 how about a root that is harder to resist and break ( the root we have now eaven with Root AA's barely lasts for a few seconds on most of the mobs from GoD,OOW and DoN)

4. Lower mana cost on Patch heals (Its sad that in a fast hard hitting fight a few patch heals to keep my group standing long enough for someone to get a slow on the mob and I'm already out of mana,Druids are suposed to be the kings of patch heals right?a faster cast time would also be nice here)

5. A new CH would be realy nice,any more KR is nothing more then a glorified patch heal that takes forever to cast,with a tank that has 15k HP or more 4680 HP max heal isnt eaven 50%(maybe a 6 or 7k CH? let the shaman keep their hots and clerics do what they do best but at least give me a chance of geting a high end group)

Aderel
03-15-2005, 12:40 AM
The new level 69 snare is a great spell. There's so many whining about the duration, and rarely even mentioning the -50 chromatic resist modifier. Maybe resist isn't an issue where you hunt, but believe me, when resists become an issue, this is an excellent spell. For example, when snaring in rss/qvic/coa/tacvi and other fairly high resist zones, this snare almost always land on first attempt. I've replaced ensnare with serpent vines as my 'default' snare.