the answer to that question is an unequivical H*ll yes!! Drones of doom does more damage than winged death and so does drifting death the spell has been cut by more than half!! only does 66 damage now instead of the original 143and all upper level dots have been reduced to near pointless level for the mobs were supposed to be using them on so you think their trying to nerf us totally out slowly ie their dotting us out lol :mad:

is that what the spell text says, or what it actually does?

it actually does 121 so sint that bad but still is a major loss to uss druid dont ya think?

Nah, duration was raised to compensate, actually is slightly more dps now. Only thing that I dont like about the change is in PVP when I liked doing shorter damage. Although with extended duration it makes it even better...

they only extended the duration of swarming death by 2 ticks

If you're looking at the spells in our boards, i'm kinda in the process of updating them... so please don't rely on that for the time being.. :o

the answer to that question is an unequivical H*ll yes!! Drones of doom does more damage than winged death and so does drifting death the spell has been cut by more than half!! only does 66 damage now instead of the original 143and all upper level dots have been reduced to near pointless level for the mobs were supposed to be using them on so you think their trying to nerf us totally out slowly ie their dotting us out lol :mad:

Grats on being completely inept at using Lucy.

Well i for one am dealing with the changes. Now im not a math wizard nor do i parsec damage or whate ever you do to figure damage. All i can say is use to to take me 3 bubbles to kill in vxed now takes 2. My down is much less and i love the faster casting times. The 2 ldon dots are still viable in group.

the changes are there and might as well deal with them.I do have max crit affliction AAs and that might account for the more damage. Do i wish the changes happned? I kinda do.But i always look to things for a challenge and rather than complain make them work for me.

The changes made to DoTs are a good thing. More than one thread has already been made about this ;)

I am perhaps an "unconventional" druid. Actually the correct term is probably lazy. I don't quad and never charm unless the mob is significantly lower level than I am (although I have done both before...I just don't prefer to do it. See "lazy" sentence above). My preferred method of soloing is the sit back, root the mob so he can't touch me, stack dots on him, and then sit and wait ;) For me, then, the DoT changes are huge. I fully expect to go back to Droga (whenever I find the time since I just started a new job) to harass the goblins into giving me a couple more sash of the cave lords. While I'm there, I'll keep an eye on my mana. I'll bet I can do it without KEI of any kind and with zero downtime (I was close to that before but not quite). Grats SOE on a good change for once =)

I wasn't thrilled at first either, but as I went to Vxed last night, I noticed a difference and I gotta say it rocked! Of course that is root/rotting. In group VoT is still handy. So hang in there and try it out you might actually find you like it. :thumbup:

guv

For the very last time!

DPS = Damage per second

Lowering the damage per tick but making the dot last longer "LOWERS" our DPS and does not raise it.

True the spell may have a better damage to mana ratio but the DPS has been lowered alot.

This may help in soloing depending on your play style but for those of us who used the "formerly" fast acting dots on pulls in groups or raids they just destroyed the spells because the longer the dot the more mana wasted when the mob dies before the dot can take full effect.

Before very little if any of the 36 second dot would be wasted (I would start casting my first dot as the mob was incoming so that the dot would hit just after the tank enaged the mob) but now with a much longer dot you cannot use them any more.

We all have different play styles and SOE just destroyed what alot of druids "used" to do. I undeestand that this may not have affected "some" druids play styles or may have even helped some but also understand that this hurt quite a few druids.

What is clear and without question is that DPS goes up when you can cause more damage per second and down when you cause less. Why this is a difficult concept is beyond me :)

Wizard's can cause by far the most DPS in the entire game. Sure it leaves them either low or oom because the damage to mana ratio is horrible but they specilize in heavy fast damage.

What some people are trying to explain is that in certain circumstances you need high DPS and the mana use is secondary. If you have to take down a target fast or if you have good mana regen gear as well as spells to add to your mana regen then using high DPS spells that use tons of mana is not an issue.

In closing....

DPS = Damage you cause per second and has nothing to do with damage causes per mana.

-Cass

Wizard's can cause by far the most DPS in the entire game. Sure it leaves them either low or oom because the damage to mana ratio is horrible but they specilize in heavy fast damage.



Rogues consistently own wizards on any encounter for our guild. Top rogue dps I've seen was around 1250dps on a single mob in Tacvi. Top wizard dps I've seen was around 1000dps. Our druids have pulled around 500dps on these same mobs. This is using chained nukes, I've been using rains also and <3 the resist changes on them. I don't think our DoTs have anything to do with our maximum dps output, only time I pull them out on raids is for Arch Magus Vangl. Also, Teia hit 750dps or so last week, but this was using the new vet reward AA so I wouldn't consider it consistent dps for druids by any means. Wonder what a wizard dps could hit with 7th vet reward AA, possibly close to 1500.

How far back do you want to go when considering what druids "used to do"?

DoTs originally were all about efficiency--DPM. And by and large, that remained true for many of our DoTs. A DPS calculation for DoTs may be interesting, but I've never considered it especially relevant.

For DPS, we have our nukes. Just think of a nuke as a one-tick DoT, if you like.... :)

How far back do you want to go when considering what druids "used to do"?

DoTs originally were all about efficiency--DPM. And by and large, that remained true for many of our DoTs. A DPS calculation for DoTs may be interesting, but I've never considered it especially relevant.

For DPS, we have our nukes. Just think of a nuke as a one-tick DoT, if you like.... :)

We also "used" to not be able to pile on dots :)

What was nice about thos 36 second dots was that we could toss one or two on incoming and switch to healing, debuffing, snare/rooting or whatever. Sure the DPS was minor but for some groups this most certainly helped if you did not have an ideal group makeup.

I cannot toss a large nuke at the start of a battle without risking agg and then switch to heals.

As I said before.... we all play a bit differently and what works for one does not always work for another.

I'm trying to see how this change helps us overall. For sure it will help a few soloing but we did not have an issue with what this helps with before so why the change?

If the "old" way worked for everyone why not just leave it alone? We did not ask for it. It only helps soloing and then only a tiny bit - most certainly not enough to make such a drastic change.

Maybe if SOE actually talked to their customers and we had a 2-way dialog we could know what they have in mind.

-Cass

Alot of us like the changes to out DoT's, I can't say for certain but it seems that more of us like them then not once we have actually tried them, each to their own and all.
As for using them on raids, I am not high end only Elemental with one kill to time, on those types of mobs there is no time to DoT any trash, the die to fast. I use maybe one dot on the minis and so forth but mostly I nuke when I want to add some damage.
I have ofyen found that if I use a dot very early in groups I seem to get agro, I tend to nuke in groups, debuff heal snare etc. I still dot from time to time but it depends on the groups kill speed really. When I do dot I use VoT, which sure won't work everywhere, but where it doesn't work a nuke does tend to.
I think SoE is listening to the majority of us and I like the changes. We all have different play styles of course and each to their own, but being able to adapt is being a druid as far as I am concerned, it might not be fair or just, but I have fun :).

I have ofyen found that if I use a dot very early in groups I seem to get agro
Only times I've ever consistently got aggro off our DoTs is when I use the fire DoT line. I rarely get aggro off the bug DoTs, even when I cast it on incoming.


Ah ... I looked at Lucy, Vengeance of Tunare is fire. How odd, they didn't change the duration on fire DoTs? Thought the reason they changed duration of the DoTs was because of aggro complaints?

Alot of us like the changes to out DoT's, I can't say for certain but it seems that more of us like them then not once we have actually tried them, each to their own and all.
As for using them on raids, I am not high end only Elemental with one kill to time, on those types of mobs there is no time to DoT any trash, the die to fast. I use maybe one dot on the minis and so forth but mostly I nuke when I want to add some damage.
I have ofyen found that if I use a dot very early in groups I seem to get agro, I tend to nuke in groups, debuff heal snare etc. I still dot from time to time but it depends on the groups kill speed really. When I do dot I use VoT, which sure won't work everywhere, but where it doesn't work a nuke does tend to.
I think SoE is listening to the majority of us and I like the changes. We all have different play styles of course and each to their own, but being able to adapt is being a druid as far as I am concerned, it might not be fair or just, but I have fun :).

You saying that more people like them than not is as valid as me saying more people people hate them than not.

This is pure speculation. My point was that this change hurts many and helps few but then again that is only my opinion. I would like someone to point out "anywhere" where Druids requested this in any form? I look at the long standing "list" as well as the posts and no where did I see:

"Please change our DOTS"

I saw this no where. I did, however, read "tons" of requests for help in other areas - areas SOE ignored as well as utter and total silence about the promised stances months ago which is why I no longer play EQ and have moved to WoW.

If you read my posts from a few months ago (I'm usually a big SOE basher LOL) I fell for the stance line hook line and sinker. I praised SOE like I never did and thanked them. I openly supported them but now I feel betrayed. The price increase after they implimented cost savings by merging servers was the last straw for me.

They care less about making more $$$ and more on "locking us into long term subscriptions" and I do not take kindly into being forced to do anything.

So SOE says:

"Pay us for 6-12 months up front or we'll raise your monthly fees"

I say:

"Screw you SOE and cancel EQ"

*smiles*

-Cass

Only times I've ever consistently got aggro off our DoTs is when I use the fire DoT line. I rarely get aggro off the bug DoTs, even when I cast it on incoming.


Ah ... I looked at Lucy, Vengeance of Tunare is fire. How odd, they didn't change the duration on fire DoTs? Thought the reason they changed duration of the DoTs was because of aggro complaints?

Nope they only messed with the "good" dots that were the bread and butter for "some" of us.

And some druids defend this? I swear if SOE made our heals use more mana but heal a bit more some druids would post how great this was....

wait.... they already did that and some druids have praised this :)

-Cass

P.S. DPS for the druid class has now changed to DPH - Damage per hour

I can now cast 2 dots in the same time that it took to cast one dot, the significant cast time reduction (mine is 2.4 seconds per cast on dots with the focuses I have) has made a big difference. I pull mobs in plane of fire with dots instead of snare, and can cast wasp swarm and swarming death on the mobs outside the tables area before they even get to camp at a full run. I then cast the new snare on them (Serpent Vines lvl 69) and they are immediately snared, in the camp area right by the rest of the group. With BA5 as well as crit dots I am pleasantly suprised at the amount of damage they are getting from the dots.
The reduced cast time is really nice because the mob is rarely if ever not without a dot now. Since I never root fire mobs these dots are very very nice for the fast cast. Add in Tempest Blade and I still have a fairly decent amount of damage per tic.

Just be glad Sony didnt decide to make the damage less when the mob is moving like it was in the old days, dots really sucked back then.

P.S. DPS for the druid class has now changed to DPH - Damage per hour

I am not happy with the lengthened duration of our swarm dots, however I feel compelled to challenge this statement.....

Solstice Strike has been made larger than any nuke druids have ever had while having its recast time shortened by around 22%. I would venture a guess ( admittedly I have no parses to support this ) that our Burst Damage is currently higher DPS than druids have ever been able to achive.

While I agree that our DoT DPS has been lowered, I would not consider DoTs a druids bread and butter when maximum DPS is required, thus I don't think its fair to say druid DPS has been ruined by this.

On a side note. Dotting druids who have a focus effect such as Timeburn (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=3843&source=Live) , benefit from the lengthened base duration of our magic dots and "should" gain 2 free ticks of damage where they only gained one based on a 6 tick DoT.

One final item to look at when considering our dots as they have increased a significant amount in mana efficiency. Wasp Swarm went from 4.59 dmg/tick to 5.73, a 25% increase.( assuming I didn't botch the math while half asleep ).

I feel the changes are an improvement. My play style is casual, mainly solo and root/rot is a preferred method in the more difficult zones.

Rhunt
Sayryn MM

I think most of the "i hate the new changes" reaction is due to just simple ignorance, so you can't count those out. People that don't know they are dealing the same or more total damage, just slower and with a faster cast time. People that don't know that you have a higher chance to crit in a longer duration dot... Obviously you have researched all ends Cassea, but most haven't and that is why you can't say that most people hate it either.

I no longer play EQ and have moved to WoW.

Please stick to WoW forums, thanks.

I think most of the "i hate the new changes" reaction is due to just simple ignorance, so you can't count those out. People that don't know they are dealing the same or more total damage, just slower and with a faster cast time. People that don't know that you have a higher chance to crit in a longer duration dot... Obviously you have researched all ends Cassea, but most haven't and that is why you can't say that most people hate it either.

Greater chance to crit but when you do crit it will be a lower amount due to the lower damage. IMHO a wash.

Sure less ticks meant less chance to crit but when you did crit it was based on a higher base damage.

I admit that for soloing this helps. My beef was and is that they took a few dots that could be used for "both" soloing and grouping (even if you may not have used them in groups many other druids did) and changed it to a solo only spell.

Just does not make any sense.

-Cass

Greater chance to crit but when you do crit it will be a lower amount due to the lower damage. IMHO a wash.

Sure less ticks meant less chance to crit but when you did crit it was based on a higher base damage.


For expectation purposes, you can calculate it the same way you would a nuke, just using the total base DoT damage.

Since the total base DoT damage has increased with the changes, it's not really a wash.

I was a little annoyed with the DoT changes at first but I started to like the changes once I used the DoTs more.

When I'm root/dotting, the extended duration allows me to med longer before I need to reapply the DoTs. The quicker casting time means I can reapply the DoTs and go back to medding faster than I used to. I may kill a little slower but my mana lasts longer.

If I'm fighting a mob that summons or is immune to snare then the quicker casting time heals a great deal.

When I'm grouped I rarely used more than one DoT. The faster cast time lets me chuck a quick DoT in before I switch to healing / nuking.

In the case of Wasp Swarm its 67 hp/tick less damage, in a 30 second fight thats 300-500 less damage (depending of FE, Crits etc). If the fight lasts longer then the new versions work out better.

Mabey i am missing something here, dots last longer do less dmg per tic and do more total dmg. How can this be good well you say they do more dmg not true,IF they do not go thier full duration (a rarety for me when it happens). So that kind of nerfed the groupablity of them why waste mana on a dot that you could have used to nuke. What aobut soloing true theyy do more Dmg in the long run but it still takes longer to solo about 2 min per mob long is what i have noticed. More Mana efficant yes, drop in exp per hour yes. and the changes in healing are a little unsettling. Do they want us to be healers if so they should give us the tools needed, o and the increased mana cost has more of impact that one might think( i recomeding NI for those you using Cholotrope for heals). In short i just want to go back to what we were before the 600 spell changes ect.


Jakus Al'Thor
70th druid of tuanre on tuanre with tuanre in the garden.

Before:

36 second dots "could" be used both in soloing and groups

Now:

All dots only good for soloing.

So they removed a way that "some" of us played in order to slightly beef up our soloing abilities after years of telling people this is not a soloing game.

I still don't get it. If before the spells were good for both styles of play and now they are good for only one style of play then how is this better?

The #1 reason people (most people) stopped using the free Epic Dot was that it took too long and did too little damage. Now they take our best dots and model them after that? Crazy.

Let me ask this... if they would have just dropped the cast time on our dots just a little (including our Epic 1.0) who would have been upset?

Was anyone upset with the high damage 36 second dots? Did we have a line of Druids picketing SOE with signs saying....

"PLEASE change our DOTS!"

They changed our dots for a reason. Maybe this reason makes sense... maybe it doesn't but we'll never know because SOE feels that we are somehow unworthy of such top secret information :)

-Cass

I would like my dot's back the way they were too.... oh well.
Maybe they'll give me a group stance where the dots are higher dmg/shorter duration so it lasts the whole mob and my quick heal is back the way it was before it obliterated my mana pool.

I pretty much deal with the changes they do because i love my class, but i do feel the frustration, but i keep the hope alive =) dont ask me why, but i do ~ ^

Edit. btw glitterfrost was higher dmg before the change then solstice strike is now... but i like the nuke change because fire debuff is MUCH easier to stick

Well cass and people like you, flame away..You sound like soe owes you explanations to changes made to a game they own.I own a business and frankly if i want to change something i dont owe an explanation to any one. People can ether accept it or move. Thats the nature of all business, Soe has kept it promise on the box buy offering a service for a set amount of money.No where on the box i bought or the EULA did i read that they will explain changes made to the game.

I know i sound like a fanboy, but im a fanboy to business doing what they feel is right for their product.IF i dont like the changes, then show displeasure by cancelling account. But they dont owe me anything.They owe me what was promised when i bought the game which soe has done.

By all means if unhappy and with these boards post why you dont like the game. That part i can respect. What i dont respect is that soe OWES you why they do or do that.Sometimes a dev will post on changes.. thats a bonus but not required. Good luck

Greater chance to crit but when you do crit it will be a lower amount due to the lower damage. IMHO a wash.

Sure less ticks meant less chance to crit but when you did crit it was based on a higher base damage.

I admit that for soloing this helps. My beef was and is that they took a few dots that could be used for "both" soloing and grouping (even if you may not have used them in groups many other druids did) and changed it to a solo only spell.

Just does not make any sense.

-Cass

As far as i know the vengeance line remained unchanged, you can still use this line in fast dps groups since they don't last very long. They've always been pretty short duration compared to the other dots (even pre-changes).

I especially liked how they included the immolation line. Debuffs dots like this SHOULD last long.

Edit. btw glitterfrost was higher dmg before the change then solstice strike is now... but i like the nuke change because fire debuff is MUCH easier to stick

I'm going to have to disagree with this one.....

Currently: Solstice Strike - Decrease Hitpoints by 2201

Glittefrost before and after: Changed Slot 1 from "Decrease Hitpoints by 2132" to "Decrease Hitpoints by 1892

Now Ancient Glacierfrost was larger....Changed Slot 1 from "Decrease Hitpoints by 2302" to "Decrease Hitpoints by 2042"

Solstice strike is the largest non ancient nuke we have ever had.

Well cass and people like you, flame away..You sound like soe owes you explanations to changes made to a game they own.I own a business and frankly if i want to change something i dont owe an explanation to any one. People can ether accept it or move. Thats the nature of all business, Soe has kept it promise on the box buy offering a service for a set amount of money.No where on the box i bought or the EULA did i read that they will explain changes made to the game.

I know i sound like a fanboy, but im a fanboy to business doing what they feel is right for their product.IF i dont like the changes, then show displeasure by cancelling account. But they dont owe me anything.They owe me what was promised when i bought the game which soe has done.

By all means if unhappy and with these boards post why you dont like the game. That part i can respect. What i dont respect is that soe OWES you why they do or do that.Sometimes a dev will post on changes.. thats a bonus but not required. Good luck

SOE does not "owe" me anything and yes I did cancel my account. What SOE does need to understand that this lack of communication is wrong wrong wrong.

SOE was the one who came out and announced stances and while they always did say that nothing was set in stone, what was/is set in stone is that SOE did say that they knew Druids needed some serious work.

So you either feel that stances have been abandoned and that the current changes are all that Druids needed or you, like many of us, are waiting for SOE to "fix" Druids like they did promise - either by stances or not.

-Cass

What SOE does need to understand that this lack of communication is wrong wrong wrong.

For most games, you can just get on and play. You never communicate with the company. The fact that people feel they need to communicate so much with Sony just shows how wrong things are. If you really don't like how the game works, you can just walk away from it until it's fixed. It's only a game. Sony, for it's part, shouldn't be encouraging customer involvement then ignoring the customer response.

So you either feel that stances have been abandoned and that the current changes are all that Druids needed or you, like many of us, are waiting for SOE to "fix" Druids like they did promise - either by stances

The Devs have confirmed that our stances have not been abondoned. They are just working on spells and some other tweaks first.

Check out Scirocco's comment
http://eq.forums.thedruidsgrove.org/showpost.php?p=163011&postcount=36

What i fine funny is i can post and paste of changes, nerfes, and class changes from all mmrpgs... Sony does not have a monoply on this. Any game you play will have changes people love and hate at same time. I personally love the changes. Its made both better in groups with the heals and better in solo with the dots.I never used dots much in groups cause you take away crowd control with it if something bad happens..not saying dots wasnt viable in groups just i chose not to use them and groups never asked me to. Nothing worst than dotting a mob and then find out a healer is near by and now cant mezz mob and take out healer.But everyone has different play styles and no way to change something so that 100 percent of the people are happy with it.


And cass i wish you luck in your search for a game that makes you happy. I respect that you spoke with your pocket book on how you felt game changed. Good luck on your search.

The Devs have confirmed that our stances have not been abondoned. They are just working on spells and some other tweaks first.

Check out Scirocco's comment
http://eq.forums.thedruidsgrove.org/showpost.php?p=163011&postcount=36

You have to admit that it's kind of funny (sad?) that SOE comes out and says:

"We know druids are busted real bad and we're going to take some drastic action.... we'll just take 6+ months to do anything about it"

Of course they did not say it this way but this is how I took it. If SOE knows we are hurting and hurting bad would you not try and keep the class alive by doing the open heart surgery first before you polish my nails? :)

While SOE may make the Druid Class right in the end (many are VERY sceptical now) they may kill off the class outright so that few, if any, druids are even left to see the fixes :)

-Cass

Cassea you talk about this issue like this is a new thing. It's not, druids have been borked ever since the dmg inflation on mobs of GoD. Hell we could say even before that. That's not 6 months, that's what? 3 years? I've been there, done that and been through all nerfs that they've made, and trust me recently all the changes that have been done to the druid class in particular astounds me because of their sheer magnitude (tons of spells) alone and are good changes to say the least. I've been where you stand right now and i have been angry at sony (or verant) before, I know how you feel. I haven't changed either, Sony does some screwed up stuff, but it is my opinion right now and towards these changes, that they are good and I at least like them so far. What i'm trying to say is you should try to see both sides first and just because you don't like "dot changes" you shouldn't shout out that druids are broken because that's just plain ignorant.... sounds to me like you were simply looking for an excuse to be angry at something and to quit.

Sure less ticks meant less chance to crit but when you did crit it was based on a higher base damage.

I just re-read this and i have to say though... The damage was higher by only a few points. The dot's weren't screwed from 300 dmg to 2 dmg a tick...

Example:
Wasp Swarm
OLD -> 356 dmg per tick (6 seconds) for 6 ticks (36 seconds)
Actual -> 289 dmg per tick (6 seconds) for 9 ticks (54 seconds)

Difference is 67 damage and 3 ticks.

OLD total damage -> 2136 damage
Actual total damage -> 2601 damage

Difference in total damage: 465 damage.

Now let's see how many chances you have to crit on the old and the actual one. 6 chances on the old one versus 9 chances on the actual one. Crits are double damage so it would mean 712 for the old Wasp Swarm and 578 for the actual Wasp Swarm.

For the uninformed this means that the new dots are actually BETTER damage. The drawback is the dps is lower, which is compesanted by the increased dps available from the cold line of nukes and the new Rain spells, that's right rain spells. And we're not even including stances.

I'm sorry but I'm struggling to see how "group dotters" have had their playstyle "destroyed".

I must confess I generally don't dot in groups myself, but from what I've read here the common thing is to land a dot or two on incoming. As far as I can tell you can still do this, in fact with the lower cast times you're more likely to be able to use two dots.

Next thing I read is that the mob is dead before dot has taken full effect. Err, so what? Every time a nuker kills a mob, some portion of their mana has been wasted. Every time someone gets healed to full health, some portion of the healer's mana was wasted. If a mob dies and your dot hasn't played out, some portion of your mana was wasted - big deal.

As a matter of fact, using Wasp Swarm as an example, even on those millions of magical mobs in Norrath that always seem to die between 6 and 7 ticks, you lose out on a massive 402hp of base damage between old Wasp Swarm and new Wasp Swarm. What on earth were SOE thinking, the mob will live a whole second or two longer!! Never mind that on the freak occurrence the mob actually lives for 7 ticks the difference is only 113 damage. Or that at 8 ticks (48 seconds) you're actually in front, but mobs NEVER live that long... even in those non-ideal groups mentioned somewhere, where every bit of dps helps.

And I'd also like to challenge the view that our new dots are lower dps than the old. That's true if your idea of dotting is using one dot and waiting for it to wear off. However I'm pretty sure most of us stack dots if truly worried about dps, and the reduced cast times (and recast in some cases) mean we can stack more dots and/or stack them faster. This means we either have more dots on the mob (= MORE dps) or we have more med time to take advantage of (more med time = less downtime = MORE dps over a sufficiently large timeframe).

Cassea you talk about this issue like this is a new thing. It's not, druids have been borked ever since the dmg inflation on mobs of GoD. Hell we could say even before that. That's not 6 months, that's what? 3 years? I've been there, done that and been through all nerfs that they've made, and trust me recently all the changes that have been done to the druid class in particular astounds me because of their sheer magnitude (tons of spells) alone and are good changes to say the least. I've been where you stand right now and i have been angry at sony (or verant) before, I know how you feel. I haven't changed either, Sony does some screwed up stuff, but it is my opinion right now and towards these changes, that they are good and I at least like them so far. What i'm trying to say is you should try to see both sides first and just because you don't like "dot changes" you shouldn't shout out that druids are broken because that's just plain ignorant.... sounds to me like you were simply looking for an excuse to be angry at something and to quit.



I just re-read this and i have to say though... The damage was higher by only a few points. The dot's weren't screwed from 300 dmg to 2 dmg a tick...



For the uninformed this means that the new dots are actually BETTER damage. The drawback is the dps is lower, which is compesanted by the increased dps available from the cold line of nukes and the new Rain spells, that's right rain spells. And we're not even including stances.

I know we have been "borked" for a long time as I've been around a long long time also LOL but I refer to the more recent proclamation 4ish months ago by SOE saying that they knew the Druid Class needed some serious looking into to and singled our class our for the most drastic changes the class has ever gotten (not hard since we've never gotten much LOL)

This was followed up with asking us for input and direction to help steer them in fixing our class which we did. Many people were excited but then a month went by with no communication from SOE, then two months then three months then four months and the only comminication was when our community rep fired off an email and SOE supposedly replied that they did not forget about us.

The changes they did do, while nice for the way "some" Druids played utterly destroyed the way "some" of us played. You see I used those 36 second dots as my bread and butter spells. Maybe I'm a strange Druid but I cast those dots on darn near every pull in groups and I have all but stopped soloing as the exp was so bad as compared with grouping.

Suddenly, and seemingly without any reason, SOE ignored the Druid requests we have made for month/years and makes these DOTS "solo only" which took some spells that were good for both groups and soloing and made them solo only.... YES better for soloing but you have to admit they are no longer good for grouping at all.

Look at it this way.... maybe this last round did not bring the sky down all by itself but over time, little by little, the sky has been falling for Druids and this last round, combined with the price increase while they implimented cost savings did cause the sky to hit my head at least :)

-Cass

Ok, they may have changed the damage output on Wasp Swarm and the others in the magic dot line, but its funny for the first time in years I actually have a cold rain spell in my lineup. As long as there are not a lot of mezzed mobs around the tank I can now drop an 1168 rain nuke that hits three times with crits up to 2678 (or something like that, numbers junkies dont beat me up for this number because it may be a little off). I can cast it and alternate between it and the ancient cold nuke and put out some SERIOUS quick dps. Its even more fun in groups where we dont have a chanter and a couple of druids in the group and we can go to town on three or four mobs as they are beating on the tank.


Life and Everquest are all about change, you deal with it or you dont, some people quit at life, while others meet the changes/challenges given to them and they find ways to make the changes/challenges benefit them. Personally I would never have stayed playing Everquest if the game wasnt changing. The changes on the spell line up of getting rid of the innate resists of rain spells have made tremendous differences in how I do damage now.


Cassea, I am sorry that you decided to be a quitter instead of becoming a master of dealing with changes. Part of the joy of playing a druid is the ability to do so much, that has not changed.

Some people see the lemons, others make lemonade.

Cassea, I am sorry that you decided to be a quitter instead of becoming a master of dealing with changes. Part of the joy of playing a druid is the ability to do so much, that has not changed.

Some people see the lemons, others make lemonade.

Well I guess I did quit in the end but having played only one tune - A Druid - since '99 I would not say I did not quit without cause :)

I've been through the Ups and downs and downs and downs :)

I was also one of the first to thank SOE for removing the extra 20% resist from "all" rain spells but this, and the spell changes, are not Druid specific nor are they allowing druids to regain at least some of the ground we lost to other classes over the years.

You see if you fix "all" the classes the same and your class is last... well you're better than before and I thank SOE for that but you're still last.

SOE admitted (it's about time!) that Druids alone needed serious work to bring them in line with todays game. At first I was like ra ra ra go go go SOE!.... 4 months ago but now they are working hard on the next expansion and these "stances" are all but dust. Maybe they will be out tommorow or many never but 4 months and our community rep had to go ask if they had forgotten us?

Amazing!

If SOE admitted Druids were in trouble 4 months ago they either have changed their minds (or talked to clerics - LOL I had to add that) or they most certainly have a strange way of prioritizing things.

Sure I'm playing a bit of WoW now and having fun but I also played DAoC, SWG and even some of that crappy EQ2 but I always came back to EQ1 because I am very attached to my toon, the game and the people but being attached will only go so far.

Look at the Exodus bug (really evac bug) and this is a prime example of how SOE feels about Druids. This is "the" sole remaining near exclusive ability that Druids have. This "save the day" ability was very important to many Druids. SOE busted it with some patch long ago (close to 6 months now) and not only is it still busted but SOE has not even admitted it is broken.

(if you say they have I DARE you to show me where an official rep from SOE have posted in an official forum that they know it's busted and are working on it)

This is a VERY serious bug and either SOE hires the most incompetant programmers on the face of the earth or (what I believe) they just have not allocated enough resources to fix the bug.

A bug can be very hard to track down "if" you are not looking for it ROTFL!

We all know that SOE has a skeleton crew working on EQ1 Live. The rest are either working on the EQ1 expansion or on other SOE projects - EQ2, SWG etc...

So after all of this they decide "this" is the time to raise the price of EQ1.

Someone thinks we are nuts at SOE :)

-Cass

If SOE admitted Druids were in trouble 4 months ago they either have changed their minds (or talked to clerics - LOL I had to add that) or they most certainly have a strange way of prioritizing things.

So just how long does it take to edit a million lines of code to adapt to these new changes?

How many millons of lines of code need updating?

How about the other 14 classes who feel they seriously need work? Rangers have had issues not resolved for years. What about Berzerkers? Ya sure don't see many of them. Wonder why?

Now I'm not jumping to Sony's side and saying we are in the wrong for being upset. I'm just saying we don't know how much work is involved, how many coders are doing it, or how time is seperated for attention to each class.

At present I don't think we can conclude anything other than the apparant lack of proper communication from Sony on this one.

So just how long does it take to edit a million lines of code to adapt to these new changes?

How many millons of lines of code need updating?

How about the other 14 classes who feel they seriously need work? Rangers have had issues not resolved for years. What about Berzerkers? Ya sure don't see many of them. Wonder why?

Now I'm not jumping to Sony's side and saying we are in the wrong for being upset. I'm just saying we don't know how much work is involved, how many coders are doing it, or how time is seperated for attention to each class.

At present I don't think we can conclude anything other than the apparant lack of proper communication from Sony on this one.

Do you really think these "stance" changes will take "millions" of lines of code?

I already outlines in another post how easy this is to do. You simply add a flag that will multiply the damage output by 1.25 (25%) when a certain "spell" is in effect. They would give us two "spells" that would last 24 hours (to simulate staying in a stance until you switch):

1. DPS Stance

When this "spell" is in effect all damage output is multiplied by 1.25 (25%) and all heals are multiplied by .50 (50% reduction)

2. Healing stance

When this "spell" is in effect all damage output is multiplied by .50 (50% reduction) and all heals are multiplied by 1.25 (25% increase)

Since spell manipulation is already programed (existing spells can add or take away from damage and/or heals - this code was put in with the AA skills) you could have this up and running in a day or two with some testing.

So what "millions" of lines of code need to be changed?

They already have the code via AA skills (you could either make this an AA skill or a spell) to manipulate spell effects.

This is why I cannot figure out why it's taking so long. The code is already in the game to do what they proposed. I speculate this is why they suggested the stances as they were easy to add.

IMHO the real reason for the delay has nothing to do with allocatiing programmers.

If I was to guess the delay I might wonder if they are going to add this as a "feature" for those who buy the next expansion. This why they do not have to worry about going Druids anything in the next expansion.

-Cass

IMHO the real reason for the delay has nothing to do with allocatiing programmers.

You'd be surprised. A massive project like Everquest has thousands upon thousands of little changes to be made that all add up. And the more time they spend prioritizing these changes, to make sure that something like druid stances comes up near the top of their list, the less time they spend actually fixing things. There are tradeoffs to be made.

I'm also not convinced the change is as trivial as you might think, not to mention the game balance considerations that go along with it (determining just how much of a change to various aspects of spells should be made when in each stance, reuse time on stances, etc.)

You'd be surprised. A massive project like Everquest has thousands upon thousands of little changes to be made that all add up. And the more time they spend prioritizing these changes, to make sure that something like druid stances comes up near the top of their list, the less time they spend actually fixing things. There are tradeoffs to be made.

I'm also not convinced the change is as trivial as you might think, not to mention the game balance considerations that go along with it (determining just how much of a change to various aspects of spells should be made when in each stance, reuse time on stances, etc.)

I agree about the balance issues but is that not what the test server is for? Last time I checked.... yup.... nothing on test :)

I'll compromise with you thou.... if I say it can be done in a few days via a spell or aa ability (if you really think about it we already have aa skills that do the same but to a much lessor extent - maybe not the druid class but others) and others say "millions of lines of code" - which do you think is closer to the truth?

Four months and counting? I think not LOL

Either way it seems that SOE can find the programmers to do all sorts of things when "they" want to. I'm sure they can hire a few more with that 20% monthly fee increase :)

-JB

Do you really think these "stance" changes will take "millions" of lines of code?

I already outlines in another post how easy this is to do. You simply add a flag that will multiply the damage output by 1.25 (25%) when a certain "spell" is in effect. They would give us two "spells" that would last 24 hours (to simulate staying in a stance until you switch):

1. DPS Stance

When this "spell" is in effect all damage output is multiplied by 1.25 (25%) and all heals are multiplied by .50 (50% reduction)

2. Healing stance

When this "spell" is in effect all damage output is multiplied by .50 (50% reduction) and all heals are multiplied by 1.25 (25% increase)

Since spell manipulation is already programed (existing spells can add or take away from damage and/or heals - this code was put in with the AA skills) you could have this up and running in a day or two with some testing.

So what "millions" of lines of code need to be changed?

They already have the code via AA skills (you could either make this an AA skill or a spell) to manipulate spell effects.

This is why I cannot figure out why it's taking so long. The code is already in the game to do what they proposed. I speculate this is why they suggested the stances as they were easy to add.

IMHO the real reason for the delay has nothing to do with allocatiing programmers.

If I was to guess the delay I might wonder if they are going to add this as a "feature" for those who buy the next expansion. This why they do not have to worry about going Druids anything in the next expansion.

-Cass


I don't know Cass and thats my point.
With all due respect I do not beleive you know either.
What I do know is I am an IS person dealing with a new piece of software constantly undergoing changes. Every time we change 1 small facet of the database. it impacts often a dozen other tables and becomes an intertwined mess of items needing to be chased down one by one to update.

Remember you aren't just changing the end number. You may be changing Healing Adept and Healing gift. You may have to change the code to reflect different levels of generated agro while in the healing stance. Perhaps you must recode Spell Casting Sublety to mix with the changes to the druid healing when in that stance. You may need to retune focus effects because some may work differenty or may be not programmed to automatically adjust to this new skill/disc. You you may have to recode KR and TR so that the 75% deal is changed when in the stance. You may have to change the agro generated by each of the druid spells when in any stance( 2 sets of changes mind you ).

You also left out that they can't just code improved heals. They need to code the nukes to perform lower when in the healing stance and the converse when in the offensive stance,


Maybe your right too. Maybe you just open up one line of code and add in a *1.25 and compile but but the one thing I am fairly confident in is neither of us are SOE developers and we can't assume its easy or hard. We can only speculate.

Grats on being completely inept at using Lucy.

the spell when you right click it to see the description in game does say only 66 damage and not 66 to 143 like it should and only does 66 damage i have tried it for now I am using drifting dead and drones or doom :alc: hehehhehehe Sony sucks !!!! :alc: and for all the spells then did not need to break what was not broken!!:beerchug: All HAIL SONY :alc: ALL HAIL SONY:bs:

For me it was about DPS i want to get over and done with the mob!! Solo and group ( NC soloing I now have to have one more DoT now to to the DPS so th Faren or Murk doesnt last more that 4 mins to have root where off and in group play with other Classes dealling the damage i would cast my best two DoTs and then wait a little andthen cast winters storm !! Groups love this because if you do it right tank takes less damage and you are more wanted from groups!! So where the extra ticks are nice I say take it back want it the way it was!!:eusa_booh

Why do people assume that adding a new AA ability (that's what this is) will take millions of lines of code changes?

This stuff is already coded as other aa skills (maybe not druids) already have the ability to effect damage output and/or heal output.

So it takes millions of lines of code to add an AA skill? I think not.

I'll spilt the difference with you. I say it takes a few days to add an aa "if" you actually put someone to work on it. SOE says 4+ months and counting.

Since we have seen entire expansions come out in 6 months time how long do you think it takes for SOE to add 2 new AA abilities for Druids?

Healing Mode AA
DPS Mode AA

-Cass

I agree about the balance issues but is that not what the test server is for? Last time I checked.... yup.... nothing on test :)

I'll compromise with you thou.... if I say it can be done in a few days via a spell or aa ability (if you really think about it we already have aa skills that do the same but to a much lessor extent - maybe not the druid class but others) and others say "millions of lines of code" - which do you think is closer to the truth?

Four months and counting? I think not LOL

Either way it seems that SOE can find the programmers to do all sorts of things when "they" want to. I'm sure they can hire a few more with that 20% monthly fee increase :)

-JB

It's not that simple at all. They need to study how are we doing with the new spell changes, because the spell changes were the introduction of stances per se. They need to see how druids are performing in contrast with other classes to avoid future nerfing. When they gather all the data and make sure druids will NOT be overpowered or underpowered then they put the stances on test.

But we all know something eventually gets nerfed or upgraded... just not in a bigger scale that could potentially happen if things such as these new stances go without being studied first.

I'll spilt the difference with you. I say it takes a few days to add an aa "if" you actually put someone to work on it. SOE says 4+ months and counting

Sorry Cass,

I'm afraid this fight belongs on the Sony boards.
I can not come to an agreement with you and "split the difference" on a subject your guessing at as much as I am.

If you wanna challenge someone on the amount of coding a certain item requires in EQ, you need to challenge Absor not me. He knows the answer :grin:

Sorry Cass,

I'm afraid this fight belongs on the Sony boards.
I can not come to an agreement with you and "split the difference" on a subject your guessing at as much as I am.

If you wanna challenge someone on the amount of coding a certain item requires in EQ, you need to challenge Absor not me. He knows the answer :grin:

Not a fight.. just a good natured discussion is all :)

I have taken this to the SOE boards and yes I would "love" to ask anyone at SOE who would answer but you know where that would be going LOL

-Cass

Not a fight.. just a good natured discussion is all

Well there's someplace I think we can agree upon.
I reword this be be a debate :thumbsup:

This is great! An old-fashioned "State of the Druid" thread! I love it. Anyone wanna write a petition?

I am sorry for those whose playstyle was damaged by these changes. I got lucky this time - as someone who primarily solos and root-rots almost exclusively (i.e.: lazy druid here :) ), I haven't noticed any difference at all. Takes me the same dots in the same order to drop what I've been hunting as it ever has, or near enough that I don't see a difference. Mana hasn't been as much of an issue though, which is always nice, especially since I mostly do quick half-hours these days using my double-exp AA.

Anyway, it's really nice that the Grove is still here.

but its funny for the first time in years I actually have a cold rain spell in my lineup. As long as there are not a lot of mezzed mobs around the tank I can now drop an 1168 rain nuke that hits three times with crits up to 2678 (or something like that, numbers junkies dont beat me up for this number because it may be a little off).

Yep, I love our cold rain spell now. It's all I use in POF for quad kiting. With the new double XP button, I can get 2 AA per half hour. Got a quad crit (4x2678) with it just yesterday. And I also have been using it on raid mobs (remember that if two mobs are in range, both mobs can get hit twice).

On raids I use Tempest windx1, and solstice strikex2, and repeat over and over when I'm doing dps. Works quite well ;)

i use Tempest Wind in RS exp groups and most exp groups i join. I always tell the tank to separate the tanked mob from the mezzed ones first though :)