We've been asking for a healing fix for sometime.

A group heal would improve Druid healing in raids where AE effects the entire group. I personally see to it that a Pally is in my group on such raids, which lets me do spot heals or healing the clerics.

A HoT would improve Druid healing in groups, where we want a low agro heal buy us some time at the start of a pull.

I assume that we will not get both a group heal and a HoT, so maybe we can tell SoE which we want the most.

I would rather ask for a faster heal than a HoT or group heal, but out of the two a HoT would probably be better since it ups the total amount of healing being done and wold help druids without the spell casting subtlety AAs keep from getting aggro with burst/spam healing.

HoT, since SOTW is effectively our group heal.

no contest, group heal

i went with HoT. group heal might be nice for raids, but i think HoT would help me far more in XP groups. i'm happy to let the pallys group heal, what else are they using mana for? ;)

I'd like group heals for raids, but HoTs would sure come in handy other times.

However, the heal line I wish for most would be a fast heal line. Give me a 1.75 cast time, and I don't care that spell haste would not work on it.

Pious Elixir:
ana cost - 890
Duration - 4 ticks
HP healed / tick - 1170
Efficiency - 5.2 hp / mana
Cast time - 4

Spiritual Serenity:
ana cost - 520
Duration - 4 ticks
HP healed / tick - 820
Efficiency - 6.3 hp / mana
Cast time - 6

Pious Cleansing:
ana cost - 668
Duration - 4 ticks
HP healed / tick - 585
Efficiency - 3.5 hp / mana
Cast time - 1.5
-------------------------------------------

I think people get way to caught up with the shaman HoT. The reality of the situation is that if we did get a HoT, it'ld be ineffcient as hell. So in the end, it'ld be pointless from cost vs. reward when compared to our current heals. Also keep in mind the cast time would be pretty long if they were to give us one. As far as agro in a grouping situation goes, well, any tank that's going to be tanking (comforably) with a druid main healing is going to be over-geared anyways, so that shouldn't be an issue. Long story short, just start casting KR on incoming.

With that being said, I'm not saying our group heal would be efficent in comparison to other classes - but in comparison to our other option (casting 6 fast heals) it'ld be well worth it, especially when you filter in the time you save along with the effciency.

i have no problem with spiritual serenity. esp with foci that reduce the cast time and extend the duration.

i also have no problem saying let ours be better. balance the druid to be the best HoT healers. we don't get the toolbox of the cleric. we don't get the slows and buffs of the shaman. screw trying to coddle either and ask for a lesser version.

something like

ana cost - 600
Duration - 5 ticks
HP healed / tick - 800
Efficiency - 6.66 (repeating, of course) hp / mana
Cast time - 4

this would not overpower us. it would give us a chance to mitigate damage on inc.
you want to talk inefficient? have you seen the mana cost of groups heals? can you imagine that aggro? i am happy to let clerics and pallys do that job. i don't have the armor or mitigation to take that kinda aggro.

ps: i'd like a super fast heal, too, but that aint part of this poll.

uhh and casting chloro x6 times on a raid is better how, exactly?

i dunno bout you but for the most part nature's touch or si normally covers it if i need to top off a couple members.

and double check what i said: i'm happy to let the pally do it.

having a druid handle AEs is about like asking us to handle slows.

also, with the new potions, responsible players carry health in a bottle.

in the end, i am trying to say your comment on casting chlorodrain 6x is not really an issue.

I answered HoT to this simply due to the agro a group heal would get up but imo we would need both, and there was no option for that one...

I answered HoT to this simply due to the agro a group heal

The following group heals are less aggro than even Ni:


Ethereal Elixir (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=2180&source=Live)
Fateseeker's Boon (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=6241&source=Live)
Prophet's Gift of the Ruchu (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=6273)

Even less aggro yes, but when we're talking group heals, we mean straight group heals, those 3 are all group hots, which is, a waste of mana, considering we have sotg.

Even less aggro yes, but when we're talking group heals, we mean straight group heals, those 3 are all group hots

Sorry, i must have obviously missed the rulebook to posting on this thread (and the origninal poster never implied that)

those 3 are all group hots, which is, a waste of mana, considering we have sotg.

mmkay

Split this to its different parts:

1) Single HoT
2) Group heal ( one go )
3) Group HoT

And start again.

IMHO point 3) is out of scope, the question seems to be directed between 1) or 2).

HoT, since SOTW is effectively our group heal.


those 3 are all group hots, which is, a waste of mana, considering we have sotg.

Someone please explain to me how SotG is a valid "group heal" when it for ~2k hp max with a 15 minute reuse time? The DS componet also deems it useless in multiple raids where you could use a group heal the most...

I never said it was valid as a group heal, hell I think its ****ty as a group heal because it only heals for so much. I just said that we don't need group hots because we have it when and if its needed, we're better off just trying to get a regular group heal instead

I could sure use a HoT, group or not, a lot more often than once every 15 minutes.

So between a group heal and single target HoT, i would love a single target HoT line. To avoid agro in groups, specially with WAR tanks and make FH spam raid healing more effective.

Group heal, as in single blow heal, would be less useful in group (blow SOTW instead, even though it is HoT timed to 15min) and in raids, well, that's what Pallies are for :) also use MGB SOTW.

Group heal, hands down. I don't even care if its lame like pallies group heals and only does 1k base. I would still love it. Would be able to do almost anything if we have a group heal at the same time. Its all part of class balancing is why we don't get one.

I agree with Kamion. Group heal as opposed to HoT. As a raid druid, I'm grouped with Clerics lots more than I'm grouped with pallys.

Lilzak
Legion of the Dead

SOTW/SOTG is not even useable on most raids and actually isnt much of a group heal-over-time anyway.

A group heal is what I voted for. HoTs have less usefulness imo. Often Druids are counted on to that last minute saving deal, and HoTs are no good for that. Would love a Choroblast like group heal - 1.2kish.

I would like to see druid get a group heal ... eventhough I know SOE would never allow it. I see it this way, One raids such as vishimatar and even a few encounters in Anguish *Ture,Jelvan*, I am the only healin in the group that has time to heal. And when that AE hits even with CoA or other spellshields you still get hit for around 2k in damage every 30 seconds or so. Me spam casting Nature's infusion on each group member for the next ae hits kinda sucks. I usually only cast ancient chloro on tanks b/c it crits for 9k+. So needless to say having to cast one spell to heal the group for 4-6kish would be really nice instead of casting 6 individual heals.

Snapkrackle Pop
http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=845323
Reviviscence (http://reviviscence.home.comcast.net/)
6 year veteran of the Quellious server

The best solution I've found is to let half the group die.

moonshadow, ur my herro

[QUOTE][The best solution I've found is to let half the group die./QUOTE]

LOL.....Settled that!

For efficiency a HOT would not help. Long cast time coupled with high mana cost. Would still be good for INC and to allow a longer cast heal to land.

For flat out ass-saving a group heal would be better regardless of mana cost. Cast time would not be too bad.... not as if they would tack on 3 seconds to the normal cast times of group heals that are already there, more like tone down the heal and jack up the mana cost.

Moonshadow has been a great help for raids. I didn't really think they would add it but very glad they did.

- Efrindoel

For efficiency a HOT would not help. Long cast time coupled with high mana cost. Would still be good for INC and to allow a longer cast heal to land.

Skin of the reptile accomplished what you're talking about better than a HoT, don't see what you're complaining about.

I would like to keep HoT's between the Shaman and the Cleric.

Group heal is nice between Druid and Cleric.

SHM & CLR also have grp HoT's... Let them keep the whole HoT thing.

I want a regen that actually scales up, and that people won't click off because it is F%&^%& useless

Aura is 30 HP/tick
OoW is 60 HP/tick
PoP was 40 HP/tick
SoL was 30 HP/tick (v2 stackable, lasted 3 mins)
RoK was 20 HP/tick
Originaly 10 HP/tick

So right now, you could stack up 120hp/tick of Regen, tat is about 10% of a trash mob's hit at level 70 these days... not to mention a 3 minute buff is laughable for the returns currently.

But looking at it
10+10 = 20
20+10 = 30
30+10 = 40
40+20 = 60

Not taking into count the SoL V2 regen:
10 x 2 = 20
20 x 2 = 40
40 x 1.5 = 60

So we are already seeing a deminished upgrade process =/
It should scale UP not DOWN, or not at all!

OoW regen should be,
40 x 2 = 80
if nothing else.. but even still that has low value. Coupled with the aura it would reach 110, which isn't so bad in itself.

We've wanted a place to have an edge in the utility department, and I really think that if we had an ample regeneration spell, it would easily compensate for our heals, AND the clerics woulsn't feel encroached upon, and shaman have their own issues. I've wanted a 120HP rgen spell, but hey I doubt that will happen for some time looking at the numbers sony has given us.

I would say that
Cleric should own the Direct heal Department
Shaman should own the HoT Department
Druids should own the Regen Department

As for HoT vs Grp heal, I perfer the versatility of Moonshadow way more than a single target HoT.

-Wyre

group heal all the way..and if only it could be on a seperatet timer~

Voted Hot cause its actually useful for me as a raid druid to be able to throw a heal that doesnt generate a lot of aggro (with 2.5) and get me killed. A group heal would be better and would have been my choice, but with TBS release we were given a second group heal, on the same timer as Moonshadow. Taking this into account, if we were given a third, it would be on the same timer, making it useless since the long recast makes relying on a group heal impracticle, especially when an idiot triggers demi chest Ae. main problem i see is the other classes complaining if we got a hot, which most likely would lead to a hot thats inefficient, so as i see it, either way we are S.O.L. It's a tough call really.

If you raid endgame, then definitely Group Heal, no doubt. With the AE's a HOT will not have time to heal people. You need an immediate Group Heal to be effective.

I agree alot with what Bloodbayne said. HoTs are going to create a lot of unnecessary drama and thus giving us a duration heal much like the crappy one we already have. Woohoo! 30hp/tick! Bleh. I'd like to see a shorter cast time and/or shorter recast time on our group heals. With TBS, we did get a decent upgrade to Moonshadow. Now if I could just cast it a bit more often...

From Day One, I never considered Nature's Recovery to be a "Duration Heal" ... in my mind, even during the Luclin era when it was shiny brand new, the spell was nothing more than a regeneration. Granted, it stacked, but still a whole 30 hps per tick wasn't a heal over time, even six years ago.

Since Secrets of Faydwer Druids seem to be short the ability to heal some 1000 hitpoints per second compared to Clerics. Or slightly less when taking the 75pct rule into account. (75pct of 22000 over 18 seconds to be exact).

Clerics can not keep up that kind of healing very long (2 minutes at most and even that is stretching it), but it does help keeping the group up against bad pulls and unexpected adds.
The nearest tool that Druids have for this situation is Survival of the Fittest, but that can be used only once every 180 seconds. It is mana free though which is nice for us.
Personally, I would rather have a way to prevent the damage from landing in the first place than in having to heal it back after the fact. E.g. a Rune or similar spell (absorbs a set amount of damage or number of hits). There is a precedent for Druids having this kind of ability through an AA. If this is not possible though I think we benefit more from a solid heal over time than from a group heal. A medium duration (e.g. two minutes instead of two hours) regen of between 50 and 100 points would serve to heal back incidental damage being taken, and would alleviate the urgent need for a group heal spell (and does not give us the same hatred that a real group heal produces). If the AoE damage is more constant then Druids are not in the best position to heal anyway.


Eri

Not sure what u meant by mana-free tool but Survival of the Fittest Rk. II costs about 1.3k to me to cast

Not sure what u meant by mana-free tool but Survival of the Fittest Rk. II costs about 1.3k to me to cast

Oops, you are right. I was in a hurry and got Survival of the fittest mixed up with another 'innovative' way to make Druids heal better.

ind, I think Survival of the Fittest is a really great spell, but the long recast makes it impractical in any situation where the group is not relatively overgeared (i.e. taking a lot of damage). To use it as a single target emergency heal is extremely wastefull, but as group heals go I have seen many that are worse.

Druid healing breaks down against monsters that quad for e.g. 2000. Spamming Puravida is not going to cut it there, unless the tank has extremely high mitigation and simply does not take such rounds. In situations like that Clerics have three more spells to fall back on that each significantly heal over a short period of time, though at excessive mana cost. An short duration HoT, a very efficient near instant HoT and an instant single target heal. Looking only at single target heals Druids seem to have only Puravida which allows them to heal some 11000 points in 18 seconds. Clerics, by using their single target heal and the two HoTs can go as high as 33000 points healed in the same 18 seconds for approcimately twice the mana cost (this is assuming my calculations are correct, which is far from certain...). They can add another instant heal at a third again as powerful as Puravida, but that is not going to be chained since it costs rather a lot of mana, so I leave that one out of the comparison.
From that comparison I think that as a class Druids need a powerful HoT, or other spell that serves the same purpose (can be cast ahead of time, is mana efficient and generates relatively little hate) more than they need a group heal spell (when Survival of the Fittest helps with that even if it should be possible to use it more often than every 3 minutes. Mana cost alone will ensure no Druid will ever chain cast that one).

y personal preference, which has little to do with class needs, is a rune like spell that negates up to the next two rounds (or a given maximum of damage based on the the target's maximum health) of attacks. The spell remains active even after the shielding effect wears off, so the Druid can cast it on more than one target, but each target can have this shield only once every so often (allowing the developers to finely control how powerful this spell exactly is). Effectively it is the same as a 3 tick heal over time, but instead of healing back damage it simply is never dealt to begin with. Like with HoTs there is a difference between maximum and actual damage healed. If the damage taken per tick is lower than the points healed then some of it goes to wist. The shield blocks attacks regardless of their damage.
But, a HoT works just as well. I just think it is boring since everybody has one of those, plus a HoT is more likely to create protests from other healers if Druids get one that rivals the Cleric ones.


Eri

Mind, I think Survival of the Fittest is a really great spell, but the long recast makes it impractical in any situation where the group is not relatively overgeared (i.e. taking a lot of damage). To use it as a single target emergency heal is extremely wastefull, but as group heals go I have seen many that are worse.

I have to beg to differ here. For a druid, using this as an emergency heal is actually very smart. Currently with a 65% heal focus from Tss i can hit near 23-25k crit heal on a target. Plus heal anyone else that got hit at the same time. Im sure the numbers match up or are close with Puravida, the diff is that to get that kinda number with Puravida your casting the spell 2x @ 1.4ish sec cast time + spell refresh, versus a 1 sec (.5 after aa) cast time on SotF.

Druid healing breaks down against monsters that quad for e.g. 2000. Spamming Puravida is not going to cut it there, unless the tank has extremely high mitigation and simply does not take such rounds. In situations like that Clerics have three more spells to fall back on that each significantly heal over a short period of time, though at excessive mana cost. An short duration HoT, a very efficient near instant HoT and an instant single target heal. Looking only at single target heals Druids seem to have only Puravida which allows them to heal some 11000 points in 18 seconds. Clerics, by using their single target heal and the two HoTs can go as high as 33000 points healed in the same 18 seconds for approcimately twice the mana cost (this is assuming my calculations are correct, which is far from certain...). They can add another instant heal at a third again as powerful as Puravida, but that is not going to be chained since it costs rather a lot of mana, so I leave that one out of the comparison.
From that comparison I think that as a class Druids need a powerful HoT, or other spell that serves the same purpose (can be cast ahead of time, is mana efficient and generates relatively little hate) more than they need a group heal spell (when Survival of the Fittest helps with that even if it should be possible to use it more often than every 3 minutes. Mana cost alone will ensure no Druid will ever chain cast that one).

Again, i think you must have forgot the AA that reduces SoTF from 3 min to 90sec refresh, and from 1 sec to .5 sec cast time. While still not as great as a hot, in my opinion it wasnt meant as a Hot, or even Group heal, more of a group balance like a Clerics Arb spell. Would i ever chain cast it? no, and i hope i dont have to, otherwise in a group/raid there needs to be some seriously more healing than just a druid. We are no where's near great healers like clr, but this "group" heal on a seperate timer i think is a great step in helping us with the duty bestowed upon us by SoE. Ontop of the AA, i think you forgot our Adrenaline line which is a 1.8 sec cast time heal (same cast or extremely close to the cleric "quick" heal), which rk1 heals for just 5hp less than rk2 puravida, but also throws a mitigation buff on the tank.

My personal preference, which has little to do with class needs, is a rune like spell that negates up to the next two rounds (or a given maximum of damage based on the the target's maximum health) of attacks. The spell remains active even after the shielding effect wears off, so the Druid can cast it on more than one target, but each target can have this shield only once every so often (allowing the developers to finely control how powerful this spell exactly is). Effectively it is the same as a 3 tick heal over time, but instead of healing back damage it simply is never dealt to begin with. Like with HoTs there is a difference between maximum and actual damage healed. If the damage taken per tick is lower than the points healed then some of it goes to wist. The shield blocks attacks regardless of their damage.
But, a HoT works just as well. I just think it is boring since everybody has one of those, plus a HoT is more likely to create protests from other healers if Druids get one that rivals the Cleric ones.


Eri

i think your idea is great, but dont hold your breath. A rune would encroach on Chanters and im sure they would complain. As for the mitigation, we have that in our Adrenaline line, which has a chance to fire and let the person mitigate a % of incoming dmg till the max ammount is used up. A HoT would be good, however your suggestion of a 2ish min regen of 50-100 hp, is just that, a regen, not a HoT. Sadly it would fall in the same category as Nature's Recovery, useless. I do believe we need a HoT, however if we were to get one, it wouldnt revival a Clr or Shm HoT, however, unlike what you had said, it wouldnt be efficient. I'm not sure if you forgot, but druids compared to a Clr, have a lower base heal, and less efficient heals, and i dont see it changing.

As for your statement Domeno, i raid endgame, maybe not current endgame, but a group heal every 18 sec (excluding SoTF for the most part) wont help you on AE fights, or fights where Group healing is needed. Granted some dont need as heavy Group healing as others, but for the horrid ones, you either have to Double up a group to have 2x druids Dru/shm (takes shm from melee dps group) or Dru/Clr, or you end up putting Pallies with us to makeup for our shortfall. As i said in my original Post, im open for either, but if we keep getting group heals, the timer needs to be shortened, or we need on a seperate timer if our sole job is gonna be heals on Raid Content. While SoTF does this, its heal amounts are restricted to certain %'s. Opening with it, then our group heal is nice, but the refreshes on them hinder us to be able to do this effectively.

I also wish to appologize if either of you feel im picking apart your arguement, im just trying to present what i feel is the other side to what you are showing.

I have to beg to differ here. For a druid, using this as an emergency heal is actually very smart. Currently with a 65% heal focus from Tss i can hit near 23-25k crit heal on a target. Plus heal anyone else that got hit at the same time. Im sure the numbers match up or are close with Puravida, the diff is that to get that kinda number with Puravida your casting the spell 2x @ 1.4ish sec cast time + spell refresh, versus a 1 sec (.5 after aa) cast time on SotF.

The reason I called it wastefull was not because it is not effective, but because it uses our only efficient and effective group heal for the next 90 to 180 seconds. That is long enough that you do not often want to risk it to heal one person, unless you are certain there is not going to be any add or AoE in that time period.
(and do you really want to plan your heals around the chance to crit?)


Again, i think you must have forgot the AA that reduces SoTF from 3 min to 90sec refresh, and from 1 sec to .5 sec cast time. While still not as great as a hot, in my opinion it wasnt meant as a Hot, or even Group heal, more of a group balance like a Clerics Arb spell. Would i ever chain cast it? no, and i hope i dont have to, otherwise in a group/raid there needs to be some seriously more healing than just a druid. We are no where's near great healers like clr, but this "group" heal on a seperate timer i think is a great step in helping us with the duty bestowed upon us by SoE.

I had not forgotten the AA and I probably should have used it for my example. Still, the point that I was trying to make is that the spell has a recast time that the clerical HoT spells do not have and that it is long enough to make it incidental instead of a regular tool during a fight. You can use it once every fight, or if the puller is very active every other fight, if you invest in the 3 AAs to make it that useful. If you use it and something changes in the fight you are still in trouble with 90 seconds just as much as with 300 seconds recast.


Ontop of the AA, i think you forgot our Adrenaline line which is a 1.8 sec cast time heal (same cast or extremely close to the cleric "quick" heal), which rk1 heals for just 5hp less than rk2 puravida, but also throws a mitigation buff on the tank.


I left it out for the same reason I left out the similar Cleric one. It is too costly to use as part of the healing chain. You throw it out to prevent the tank hitpoints from dipping too far into the negative until you get a more moderately priced heal off. (p.s. The Cleric version has a cast time of 0.5 seconds, which is much better for this kind of panic spell. I am not sure if 1.8 seconds qualifies for spell haste or not. I hope it does otherwise we have regular heals that end up being faster than our supposed emergency one).


i think your idea is great, but dont hold your breath. A rune would encroach on Chanters and im sure they would complain.


Whatever happens to Druid somebody is going to complain. As I said, HoT or Rune makes little functional difference. A rune merely gives a different flavour to the class.


As for the mitigation, we have that in our Adrenaline line, which has a chance to fire and let the person mitigate a % of incoming dmg till the max ammount is used up.

To work like a heal there would not be anything complicated. Just a straight 100pct mitigation of a fixed number of swings that would have hit the tank, or a maximum amount of damage. No procs, no chances to work or not, no fancy 'interesting' or 'alternative' idea. The spell needs to do two things: prevent a significant amount of damage and buy the Druid healer some time. That is what a HoT is there for.


A HoT would be good, however your suggestion of a 2ish min regen of 50-100 hp, is just that, a regen, not a HoT. Sadly it would fall in the same category as Nature's Recovery, useless.

I believe the problem with our pathetic regens is that the developers multiply hitpoints and duration and do not want to arrive at points healed back that are too big. Problem of course is that after they divide maximum hitpoints healed by the duration you end up with a heal per tick that is laughable. Sure, over the course of the spell it can heal tens of thousands of points, but over that same period of time the tank takes hundreds of thousands, if not millions of points of damage. The heal looks big in total, but in today's game is not even registering in the short term. The pacing of the game is too high to have regen in its old form work.
I realise that I got the numbers wrong though. I was not aiming at 50 to 100 but around the 500 to 1000 points per tick. This would mean a total amount of points healed over 2 minutes between 10000 and 20000. Not enough to qualify as a true heal, but enough to supplement the real heals. I realise that the upper limit has no chance at all of seeing the light of day (or game reality) even if our latest heals can heal 75000 in that same time frame not taking spell haste and crits into account (I think that would put it at some 190000 points healed in 2 minutes?). Still, even at the lower limit this spell fills a big gap in our healing ability. It covers the healing of the players who only occasionally catch damage, and helps with some of the AoE damage that is thrown around. It reduces the need for a true group heal. Again, this is an aesthetic preference to make Druids different from Clerics while being able to fill the role of main healer.


I do believe we need a HoT, however if we were to get one, it wouldnt revival a Clr or Shm HoT, however, unlike what you had said, it wouldnt be efficient. I'm not sure if you forgot, but druids compared to a Clr, have a lower base heal, and less efficient heals, and i dont see it changing.

This is actually the root of the problem. The developers state that Druids must be able to main heal in all group content. Then they more around and make sure they can not by making their heals a quarter less powerful and a fifth less efficient. This ensures that in critical situations Druids simply can not keep up AND that Druids will need far more med breaks. Unless the developers actually make changes to give Druids the ability to main heal as powerful and as efficient as Clerics their claim that they can remains hollow.

Yes, I am aware that the theory is that Druid DPS ability is compensating for the lack of healing power, but frankly that theory is a load of manure if you ask me. Not only is a Druid who is main healer for a group not going to do a lot of DPSing (where is he going to find the mana and time to cast our slow nukes?), but groups are not going to care in the slightest. If they are looking for a healer they are not going to look at DPS abilities. If the Druid class is seen as being substandard they are not going to jump at the chance to group with them and will look long and hard for a healer they see as capable.


I also wish to appologize if either of you feel im picking apart your arguement, im just trying to present what i feel is the other side to what you are showing.

You are welcome. Your posts are polite, well thought out and offer plenty of insights that I realise I should have taken into account.

The only sad part about this whole discussion is that I do not even care for Druids being main healer. It feels like a role that is forced upon us because the developers messed up in their game design and created a game that required massive amounts of healers and offered far too little to make playing a healer attractive. My personal preference would be more in line with the original class design of a solid DPS class that offered some backup healing to groups. But if we are to be main healers, then I think we need to be capable main healers, not Cleric-light


Eri