Ok... I admit that the Softwood Lumber trade dispute between the United States and Canada is pretty low on most people list of hot topics. I suspect, but I don't know, that most Americans don't even know about the dispute. In Canada, it's front page news and is creating much anger.

There is massive amounts of information available on the dispute, and I've added a few links if folks are interested.

Basically the dispute is this. The United States feels that Canadian forestry companies are unfairly subsidized. The U.S. imposed duties to offset these 'subsidies' have been in place for many years. Billions of dollars have been collected and thousands of Canadians in the forestry sector have been put out of work.

Under the North American Free Trade Agreement, there are dispute resolution measures in place. The process involves equal participation from Canada and the U.S. There have been NAFTA panel rulings in the past. The most recent ruling was on August 10, 2005, unanimously supporting the Canadian position on the softwood lumber dispute.

The U.S. states they will not abide by the NAFTA ruling. In other words, the U.S. has publicly stated they will not honor their commitments under the free trade agreement! This has gotten many Canadians quite angry. Amongst other things, it says that the U.S. is an unreliable trade partner, and it will openly flaunt agreements it has made.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050820.wxnafta20/BNStory/National/

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/softwood_lumber/

http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/HET/Softwood/

Folks may or may not support free trade, but that is not the issue. You may or may not think that the Canadian softwood industry is unfairly subsidized. The NAFTA panel says no. The key point is can a country like the U.S. be trusted to meet their obligations, including dispute resolutions mandated in bilateral trade agreements? In this case, the answer is no.

There is no doubt that when it comes to trade and economic strength, the U.S. is the big dog, and Canada is the little dog. If emotion takes over from rational thought, Canadians will put countervailing duties on products that America needs -- for example energy exports like natural gas and crude oil. That could start a cycle of increasingly destructive trade sanctions that would hurt both countries, but would hurt Canada more. I'm not sure how Canada will react to U.S. 'big-dog bullying' but emotions on this side of the world's longest undefended border are running high.

*Sigh*... you'd think the U.S. would want to maintain international friends and allies.

I find this post comical. Cry me a river why dont you. I live in the Metro Detroit area and I'm tired of all of your waste product being stored here. We have landfills galore full of your garbage. Get it out and I'll be glad to take your side in the debate. Name one other country with 1/10th of the debt the U.S. has from assisting other countries. I'm tired of people thinking the U.S. should always budge in order to make some other country happy. What has anybody done for the United States? I'm just tired of the whiners complaining about how we are such an evil, up to no-good country. GET OVER IT!

Oh my... you sure got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning. Why don't you take your emotional, xenophobic diatribe and shove it where the sun don't shine :moon:

... and my sympathies for living in Detroit.

I feel better already :) .

I actually live in a suburb about an hour or so North of Detroit. Thanks for the sympathy however. It's appreciated. Detroit could actually make a nice rebound if they were able to get a decent mayor in there. I think Kwame was a bit too young to take on all that responsibility.

Anyhow, I didn't totally overlook your response to my so called "diatribe". You must understand however that the United States is the largest producer of goods in the World. Contribute something other than Labatt Blue and then start an arguement. Canada...LoL.

Hey... after a less than stellar start, we might actually have a basis for a rational discussion going.

Detroit suburbs are quite nice although I avoid the city core. On two occasions I lived in Sarnia, Ontario just across the river from Port Huron. There are lots of nice places in Michigan. Frankenmuth is one of my favorites.

It's true that the U.S. is the largest economic power in the world... well, for a single country at any rate. The European Union is bigger in total.

The biggest trading entities in the world in rank order are European Union, U.S., China, Japan, Canada.

Did you know that Canada is the largest U.S. trading partner? I think that comes from more than beer exports :smile: , although I can understand American prefering imported beer from just about anywhere.

The latest trade statistics I've seen are from 2002. Canada exported $194.8 billion to the U.S. and imported $146.4 billion.

Canada's biggest export items to the U.S. are;

* Transportation vehicles --> $52.3 billion
* Oil and natural gas --> $24.9 billion
* Nuclear reactors, boilers, similar machinery --> $14.4 billion
* Wood and articles of wood --> $9.7 billion
* Special classification --> $9.3 billion
* Paper/pulp --> $8.9 billion
* Electrical machinery --> $7.2 billion
* Plastics --> $7.0 billion

I didn't find beer on the list, but maybe it's under Special Classification :smile:
I also didn't find waste.

Name one other country with 1/10th of the debt the U.S. has from assisting other countries.

Foreign aid accounts for less than 0.5% of the US budget. The US is not in debt from foreign aid. Neither is any other country. Many developed countries recieve more money in interest repayments from the third world than they donate in aid.

I'm tired of people thinking the U.S. should always budge in order to make some other country happy.

We're talking in this case about the US already having budged from a free trade agreement it willingly signed up to. You can't blame other countries for getting annoyed when the US breaks it's own agreements. If you think Americans have trouble with foreign partners then you should try being in the EU for a while, that would open your eyes a little.

Heh! Typical. You ask about a specific issue and someone launches into a diatribe totally unrelated.

Thicket, as I'm sure you know, many of us our frustrated with our current government's unwillingness to play nicely in the global sandbox. All I can say is... I'm sorry. :\

Hey... after a less than stellar start, we might actually have a basis for a rational discussion going.

Detroit suburbs are quite nice although I avoid the city core. On two occasions I lived in Sarnia, Ontario just across the river from Port Huron. There are lots of nice places in Michigan. Frankenmuth is one of my favorites.

It's true that the U.S. is the largest economic power in the world... well, for a single country at any rate. The European Union is bigger in total.

The biggest trading entities in the world in rank order are European Union, U.S., China, Japan, Canada.

Did you know that Canada is the largest U.S. trading partner? I think that comes from more than beer exports :smile: , although I can understand American prefering imported beer from just about anywhere.

The latest trade statistics I've seen are from 2002. Canada exported $194.8 billion to the U.S. and imported $146.4 billion.

Canada's biggest export items to the U.S. are;

* Transportation vehicles --> $52.3 billion
* Oil and natural gas --> $24.9 billion
* Nuclear reactors, boilers, similar machinery --> $14.4 billion
* Wood and articles of wood --> $9.7 billion
* Special classification --> $9.3 billion
* Paper/pulp --> $8.9 billion
* Electrical machinery --> $7.2 billion
* Plastics --> $7.0 billion

I didn't find beer on the list, but maybe it's under Special Classification :smile:
I also didn't find waste.

I'll admit. You've done your research on the subject and I unfortunately have not. I am vaguely aware of the Softwood situation and know it's been going for almost as long as we have been a country. My original comments were obviously based on pure emotion.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a die-hard patriot. Somethings about Canada bother me, but I have no personal issues with the country. Heck, they let me drink at 19 while my country thought I should wait until I was 21. I enjoy visiting Canada as well.

Alwind

Thicket, as I'm sure you know, many of us our frustrated with our current government's unwillingness to play nicely in the global sandbox. All I can say is... I'm sorry. :\<!-- / message -->

If you think this problem has only been around since our current government was put into place you're sadly mistaken. I'm not surprised however that you would specifically try and blame our current government.

*shrug* I've never heard of the issue. I'll do a little research and get back to you later.

I was pretty sure canada's biggest export was marijuana (albeit.. biggest illegal one!)

Meh, I still think we should take over Canada and kick out Quebec. Then we don't have to worry about softwood or beer.

...thousands of Canadians in the forestry sector have been put out of work.

I don't know if you remember but Americans did a pretty good job of that, in our own country, to Americans just a few years ago.

I don't know where you are looking for sympa....Look, I don't want to do this!

I don't want to be here.

I want to be a lumberjack leaping from tree to tree...

http://www.mwscomp.com/sounds/mp3/lumberjk.mp3

The rhetoric continues to increase on the Canadian side.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2005/08/23/1184957-cp.html

Btw, the rhetoric isn't coming from journalists or fringe politicians. It's coming from the leader of Canada and his ministers.

This doesn't bode well. A trade war will be very damaging if it continues to escalate. Hopefully it won't come to that.

Perhaps Canada should assassinate the POTUS. It would be cheaper than starting a war.

Heh... I don't think we have a Pat Robertson equivalent in Canada. Not sure why. Probably because we would laugh at him before ignoring him.

Yeah, the U.S. is obviously the worse country on Earth in terms of it's goverment and citizenry.

Those of us that are should be ashamed.

Yeah, the U.S. is obviously the worse country on Earth in terms of it's goverment and citizenry.

Those of us that are should be ashamed.
And again, to repeat myself, "Gotta disagree with you there, and also gotta say that's an asinine thing to say."

Nah... you're not that bad... just a little misguided at times... but then aren't we all :)

Those of us that are should be ashamed.

Or at least demand better from our government... ;p

Yeah, the U.S. is obviously the worse country on Earth in terms of it's goverment and citizenry.

Those of us that are should be ashamed.

Just a moron with nothing intelligent to say seeking attention. Congratulations, you've received a couple of responses. Ok, your 15 minutes of asinine fame are over. GET OUT if you don't like the country or it's government. I hear Cuba is currently accepting new citizens.

Alwind

Uh... I think you completely missed the sarcasm in Sunglo's post, Alwind.

Sunglo is more bitingly conservative than you are Alwind lol.

Sorry, I didn't recognize the sarcasm. My bad.

My emotions always run high in the morning.

Alwind.

Uh... I think you completely missed the sarcasm in Sunglo's post, Alwind.

Gratz Pana - you were the only one to figure that out.

Granted it is hard to catch that at times in this forum.

Saying "Ha ha, fooled you," doesn't change much in my eyes.

Gratz Pana - you were the only one to figure that out.

Granted it is hard to catch that at times in this forum.Not everyone. Some didn't feel the need to comment, but I will now. :)

Sarcasm on the forums is best followed with :p , :rolleyes: , or any number of emoticons to clarify the feeling you want to express. Unless, of course, you want to see how many jump on you before you declare your innocence. :D

Saying "Ha ha, fooled you," doesn't change much in my eyes.

Intent was not to fool or pull a neener, just figured you all would know I was making an outlandish statement based on my prior posts.

I find it interesting that NAFTA ratification was viewed as a national priority. Anyone remember the "NAFTA, we hafta" slogans? The US under the current government seems to be happy to ignore earlier treaties and go about doing whatever they feel is appropriate. If we weren't the biggest kid on the block, we might be viewed as a fringe republic. Instead, we're just a bully. I don't see anything to make this change in the short term. From the point of view of the politicians, nobody wants to be seen as caving in to Canadian pressure. So, unless Canada gets some representation in Congress going soon, I doubt anything will happen. Probably the best bet would be to take about 5 million of lumbar sales and sink it into a PAC to lobby the appropriate congressmen.

I'm not sure if there's anything terribly unusual with breaking treaties because you can. International relations have a long and proud history of countries backstabbing each other to get ahead. I think this is just the latest chapter. When it comes to countries dealing with each other, there isn't really a higher power to appeal to who will make sure everyone plays nicey nice. Generally, countries will co-operate as long as neither has anything to gain by breaking the rules.

Just be glad that this administration hasn't decided that Canada harbors terrorists and posesses weapons of mass destruction. :)