In order for me to not break down and cry from level 44-58 I WILL be needing a healing upgrade, casting Sup heal on a tank is like crossing a desert to fill a water flask.

What if Sup heal was moved to level 44, and we were given a 40% Cheal at 51-52 with a 10 second cast time for 350mana? Would that upset anyone? :p

Have fun :)

Just all the clerics.

Actually that would not bother me, if clerics had some added function. Druids are healers and should get healing spells. However clerics would need to have something to offer group to offset. Hopefully verant will get the hint and open up the healing to all three priest classes and paladins and rangers. But also keep clerics viable by opening up some other group activities besides healing and increasing solo ability.

I would have to say that if they did not add something else to the cleric class to improve soloing and group desirability then I really would not be for it.

Better and more fun for all to add healing to you and versatility to us.

We should get a smaller CH and then they should add the cleric hammer to clerics starting at level 5 (and the self only mana regen spells so that you aren't expected to sit).

After all that... I would want to play a cleric. Want a lvl 60 one now... but can't stand the ride to get one that high

In order for me to not break down and cry from level 44-58 I WILL be needing a healing upgrade, casting Sup heal on a tank is like crossing a desert to fill a water flask.

Yeah, go figure at 53 clerics are saying how insufficient and inefficient Divine Light is and how useless the tiny heal remedy is but then they piss on druids for getting remedy at 55 and a slower cast divine light at 60 and say druids are good enough healers. What a joke.

Until the new TR at 58 druids don't have the mana regen to compensate for their hugely inefficient spells. Back in Kunark our crappy nuking may have not been all that bad compared to meleers with crappy weapons and crappy haste, but now by Luclin meleers are putting out way more damage in the low 50s than they were before, but druids sure as heck aren't unless they're meleeing too or can afford to run off and buy KEI every couple hours. Cleric CH of course just gets better and better every expansion as more and more +hp items filter down.

I would have to say that if they did not add something else to the cleric class to improve soloing and group desirability then I really would not be for it.

Clerics get a 125 damage/tick undead clicky DOT from Ssra compared to our 55 damage/tick epic. They're getting a 4:1 damage:mana undead nuke with PoP compareable to our best DOT. They got the hammer which many clerics say is very effective for non stop soloing to go along with the damage shield they got and are getting. Clerics won't be happy until they can solo an AA point in 10 minutes while they sleep.

I think the issue here is healing in pre-50.

I know that this board generally does not care about the pre-50 game, but there is a sort of improper scaling of spells. Nature's Touch at lvl 60 when we get Tunare's Renewal at lvl 58? Clerics meleeing at lvl 56 when they've been neglecting it for 30+ levels? Moving the heals down in levels for both druids and shamans, as well as giving the pre-50 clerics a version of the 56 hammer, would make a whole lot of sense.

Question really is do we want VI to work on fixing the high end games where most people play or work on fixing the trivial low end game that can be done in 4 days easily.

Maybe a small CH is need at low lvls... but really those levels are so fast it doesnt really matter.

i personally think sup heal should be moved to 44. 10 lvls after clerics get it, like every other heal up till then. technically, any other heal we get after them is 5 lvls after. i don't see how 10 would kill anyone, and allow druids to be viable healers from 44-50.

otherwise, i think we are cool.

actually Lind you are making my point for me. The thing that a lot of clerics are calling for is for a lot more undead only zones. Then our undead dots and nukes would be cool. Sure leave us undead nuke masters and then put in as many undead mobs for us as live ones for you and make your nukes as ineffective on undead as our undead ones are on live mobs. That would work for me.

Some clerics say hammer is great for soloing and some druids said their healing was fine before TR. They are both wrong.

I think it's fine the way it is. Chloroblast was fine for me until even 60. the ch spell was just meant for raids and high level grouping. don't count on being a main healer ina group until 60. and even then you'll still take the back seat to clerics.

You know, one nice change might be to lower Superior healing to 44 thus allowing lower level druids to get it earlier AND have it modded by level 2 focus items.... and be even lezz superior fizzle.

I mean you may not think much of it but with Mana pres + improved healing + spell haste it would really be quite a decent spell.

There's nothing wrong with Nature's Touch. It is effectively Divine Light. Ask clerics how often they use their Divine Light. Also, they get Divine Light after CH, so again, I don't see a problem with it being a level 60 spell.

I don't know about NT, I don't have that spell yet. BUT healing from 1-40 is pretty solid for a druid, 40-58 with old spells was rocky at best. Moving superior healing to 44, and maybe lowering CB to 53 would about fix some of the issues with healing that druids have had all along. I can remember trying to heal my duoing partner who is a paladin and not being able to heal him or having to rely on him healing between pulls while I tried to med back. IT is not a pretty picture.

Now I do think clerics between 30 and 50 are in the same boat as druids but in the soloing game. Clerics are largely group dependent over all, and should not be massive soloers or very good at it. BUT they should atleast have that option.

So basically we need a little smoothing out of the healing curve between 40 - 55 and clerics need a little smoothing out of soloing the soloing one.

Raey

Is there something wrong with places like the grey or me, in those places you cant even swing a dead ranger without hitting something undead?

I don't wanna hijack the thread but... if you wanna play a big role in raids and be group friendly, then imo you should pick a cleric. if you like soloing, then go with a druid. the origonal vision was to make this so. but now that brad left the current designers have scewed it, and now they want all classes to do the same thing.

hah no

I think our current healing abilities are pretty good.. druids didn't really become "broken" until the high end game anyway, so the fix should be limited to the high end game.. before this new heal, druids had a legitimate reason to gripe and complain.. now that our class is fixed, I don't think anymore changes are really needed.. I don't want to give credibility to the belief that druids just whine and complain no matter what..

if you wanna play a big role in raids and be group friendly, then imo you should pick a cleric. if you like soloing, then go with a druid.

IMO, this sort of statement is counter-productive. What about those of us who started without any knowledge of these already defined roles that you have in place? What if I made a druid because I *imagine that* like the whole nature thing? People are constantly saying go solo, as if we were all given a manual telling us we wouldn't be able to get a group post 40. That being said, I can *usually* find a group because I'm fairly known by now :P Either way, think about what you imply when you make statements like above.

Stormlin shouts, '46 Druid with KEI LFG PST'
l33tH4X0r shouts, 'If I was a drood with KEI I'd be solo'ing'
Stormlin shouts, 'I know'
Stormlin shouts, '46 Druid with KEI LFG PST'
/lfg on

Lindara cracks me up, although the hate that she seethes in every post is a bit sad, tired and predictable.

The rest of us got by with that heal at that lvl.
So can you.
It gets better later anyway.
Healing for druids if vastly improved over what it was once. Dont expect the game to be so easy that it becomes boring.
Downtime DOES exist, though with all the improvements, focus items, and lvl 30s begging for KEI just so they can function, you wouldnt know it.

Question really is do we want VI to work on fixing the high end games where most people play or work on fixing the trivial low end game that can be done in 4 days easily.


Wow you can get a char to level 58 in 4 days? Props to you. I cant even get a yellow in 57 in 4 days.

if you wanna play a big role in raids and be group friendly, then imo you should pick a cleric. if you like soloing, then go with a druid. the origonal vision was to make this so. but now that brad left the current designers have scewed it, and now they want all classes to do the same thing.

There is nothing in the original vision to make druids a solo class. This is a MULTI-player game. They didnt design any class to strictly solo. Druids were a great group addition when I first started playing this game. Druids fell way behind after SoV IMO.

The rest of us got by with that heal at that lvl.
So can you.

Heh, I got by with always grouping with an enchanter and cleric. Whenever I tried being group healer for a bunch of low 50s with chloro/superior as my only heals and there were lots of mobs around it was always my mana pool that slowed us down until we got a cleric or slower.

"with that heal at that lvl.
So can you.
It gets better later anyway.
Healing for druids if vastly improved over what it was once. Dont expect the game to be so easy that it becomes boring.
Downtime DOES exist, though with all the improvements, focus items, and lvl 30s begging for KEI just so they can function, you wouldnt know it. "

No offense buddy, but the above posted is crap. First of all, if you got by with it broken doesn't mean that it isn't broken. Second of all, noone complained about downtime, what we complained about was the death of our tank, followed by the rest of the party, because we can't function properly as a 2nd healer sometimes :P much less if we are considered the MH. Now, when I am picked up in a pickup group, I am almost ALWAYS MH because that's the only reason they want me, I'm a healing class. I better darn well have KEI if I'm going to keep my party alive.. which I donate very well for. Begging isn't one of my chosen skillz :P

/rant

Superior heal? Why are you mentioning THAT? I've been using chloroblast since I could and have not used "superior" once since. Chlor is way better. I still feel fine at level 56.

well buddy, if you are secondary healer and your tanks are still dying, your doing something really wrong.
/rant all you want.
I dont think druids are broke when played right. Sorry, but I just dont.

I have said for awhile now and still believe that the healing progression for druids should be adjusted due to the new heal. I think superior healing should be level 44, chloroblast 52, and nature's touch 56. It doesn't make sense that druids have such a huge gap in their healing and this would help to fill it, without even approaching cleric efficiency as main healer. I think that moving the heals in this way would allow druids to better fulfill their role as backup healer/fill-in when no clerics are present or cleric is oom.

But I severely doubt this will ever happen at this point because most people fall into one of these three groups:

1. Snobby lvl 60 druids who couldn't care less about druids who are not themselves, with the old grandpa "I had to walk in the snow barefoot uphill both ways, you can do it too" attitude.

2. Clerics who really don't want anyone else to be able to heal except themselves.

3. The rest of the world who just don't care.

Without the support of the druid community, we can't ever make a case for these changes to verant. Most of the druid community that posts on this message board doesn't give a flip about druids below 60. Actually soon to be 65.

your forgot two catagories

4. Druids who are ok with where they are, who realize they have or are getting the tools to play the game correctly.

5. The druid whiners that make every other class ignore druids.

Anyway, I've had enough. I'm not 60, I supported the petition to change druid healing, and I think its coming along nicely.

Until 58, the only efficient heals available to druids are the regens. To effectively heal in an xp group, you need cooperation from everyone, good crowd control and damage sharing. This is tough to put together, especially in pickup groups. 54-57 were some of the toughest levels in my experience. Part of this is due to inefficient heals, the other part is player level and equipment vs xp mob level. Howling Stones with a group from 53 to 57 in pre-Velious quest gear is a *lot* tougher than it is with 59+ folks in better stuff.

Anyway, I think moving heals down will help a bit, but it won't do a whole lot. NT is not more efficient than Chloroblast, which isn't even much more efficient than Sup Heal. You'll still go OOM if you're casting more than 2 or 3 direct heals a fight.

The solution? I don't know. Increased availability of Healing focus items? NR available way earlier (52?)

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I have said for awhile now and still believe that the healing progression for druids should be adjusted due to the new heal. I think superior healing should be level 44, chloroblast 52, and nature's touch 56. It doesn't make sense that druids have such a huge gap in their healing and this would help to fill it, without even approaching cleric efficiency as main healer. I think that moving the heals in this way would allow druids to better fulfill their role as backup healer/fill-in when no clerics are present or cleric is oom.

But I severely doubt this will ever happen at this point because most people fall into one of these three groups:

1. Snobby lvl 60 druids who couldn't care less about druids who are not themselves, with the old grandpa "I had to walk in the snow barefoot uphill both ways, you can do it too" attitude.

2. Clerics who really don't want anyone else to be able to heal except themselves.

3. The rest of the world who just don't care.

Without the support of the druid community, we can't ever make a case for these changes to verant. Most of the druid community that posts on this message board doesn't give a flip about druids below 60. Actually soon to be 65.
Menlaiene Ravenswood
55 Preserver
Veeshan
[/quote

Exactly right Mel.

Storms [/quote]

I agree that healing between about lvl 46-58 is poor for Druids. If your a secondary healer all you need is chloroblasts to help save the primary healer when he mistimes. But if you *ever* play primary healer or try during those levels, Chloroblasts nor Natures Touch will be good enough since you'll have major downtime unless your killing easy stuff with a good group.

A druid is NOT a capable primary healer all the way up to 65, so your going to have to change your playstyle imo to be more damage oriented between those levels. Use WD, BoR, or Starfire. Your not nearly as desired, damage ability is a dime a dozen, but thats the best you can do, although we can at least solo well during those levels. Dont believe the ones here saying how they had no problem healing during those levels. Some Druids thought we healed fine before TR, which goes to show how different opinions can be.

Anyhow, i see CB and NT as quick patch heals. Both mana intensive in relation to the hp's healed, which doesnt suit long period of primary healing.

Am I right in believing that TR is presently bugged to cause only a tiny amount of aggro compared to CH ?

I dont know what you guys are smoking, but I'd like to have some of that stuff too.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>A druid is NOT a capable primary healer all the way up to 65, so your going to have to change your playstyle imo to be more damage oriented between those levels. [/quote]

I've been a primary healer since Level 1. I duo with my warrior bf from 1-52. After that, I grouped in Seb, Chardok, KC, Velk, quad kite poor othmirs and silly wyverns to 60. Many many times I have to step up as primary healer. I really have no problem to be a main healer whenver it needs. What I've noticed is, Healing gift, healing adept helped a lot. I had absolutely no problem as main and only healer when I was getting AA in UP with a full group.

I do not feel druid class is broken. If it is, it's the player who plays it not doing things correctly. A class that can totally replace a cleric in Hall of Honor, a class can solo in Hall of Honor, a class can nuke better than mages, a class can port, debuff, buff, and do 5000 other things and you still think it's broken. I think you need to stop complaining and get some AA so you can make yourself a better druid and enjoy this game.

"Am I right in believing that TR is presently bugged to cause only a tiny amount of aggro compared to CH ?"

No you'd be very wrong.

CH = 7500hp heal
TR = 2950hp heal

7500/2950 = 2.54

So CH should generate 2.5 times the aggro TR does. CH cast in a normal fight rarely generates aggro as it is so I dont see a bug.

Nice try though.

PS: Dont tell me a CH rarely heals 7500 damage. Snare often doesn't snare at all but still generates huge aggro so aggro is based on potential rather than actual results.

Complete Heals agro is capped. Note it wasnt changed one whit by lessening the amount it heals by 2500 points; it sill hits the cap. The Druid heal was capped as well but much lower, probably as a realization that a lot of the other things Druids do in-combat generate a lot of agro already.

Heal agro has been changed many times over, usually in recognition of CH being quite powerful and attaching proper risk (you have to cast it usually /shrug) to using it.

My advice : dont mention the lower agro too much; it will get nerfed.

I support Superior heal getting moved down to 44. Druids can function quite admirably as a primary healer at levels 53-57. The downtime will be kinda iffy. Slow will be needed. Defensive classes will need to be chosen carefully and everyone will need to play rather well. Druids however, perform even better in the role of a backup healer through these levels or in tandem with a shaman. Without KEI to bolster mana the downtime with a Druid as a primary healer without these considerations will indeed be huge.

BUT I remember quite a lot of downtime at these levels because of my mana being quite drained. Gear was a LOT gimpier then (only Kunark was out when I did these levels and gear showed it :P ), but players knew they needed to work together to keep the exp rolling in. Pullers will actually have to /gasp listen to you when you tell them not to pull. People will have to drop agro and let the tank do just that tank (monks, rogues, rangers,etc). A lot of the problems with people wanting the "ideal" group lies in that they want to play lazily and/or sloppily and let the experience roll in I think.

I dont know I kind of miss the days when going into a dungeon in Kunark meant you were looking at some real danger of wipeouts and just getting past the wanderers in a good time frame was tough. Everyone had to play to the best of their abilities and use every trick they knew to keep everyone alive. The game has become much less of a challenge in skill than it has a challenge in stamina.


Belkram Marrwolf

"I do not feel druid class is broken. If it is, it's the player who plays it not doing things correctly"


Gimme a break. You add up damage totals from mobs, in relation to what you CAN heal with your CB's and NT's, and your going to be a very poor primary healer unless conditions or the equipment of others helps you through it. You simply dont have the mana to keep up with the damage in relation to the healing ratio of those spells no matter how you try and spin it on the individual players skills. Individual players skills doesnt overcome the mana ratio of the spells at your disposal as well as your limited mana pool. Sure, talk about the extra 80 hp's healed with max healing AA's or the luck of crits, but those are trivial and you can hardly expect Druids from 46-58 to max those out before they reach 60. If you consider 10-15 min downtime intervals being a 'capable' primary healer then we definitely disagree what a group worth being in is. That cliche about its about the player is so annoying especially when its the players around that individual that make things easier for them but they dont realize it. Its the same problem with taking views from Uber players of how 'easy' something is for them, most of them dont realize how much easier the people around them or their equipment make things.

Oftentimes other players you group with, or the makeup of your groups deceive you into believing its easy or we're capable primary healers with just CB or Sup heal. The reality is the mana ratio's on those spells arent good enough to play main healer w/o downtime unless your playing in ideal conditions everytime you group. TR changed that for 58+ Druids, but not below 58 Druids who have it hard in terms of ability to play main healer. How many NT's can you cast in one mana pool? How much damage does your tank take in that period of time if the conditions arent ideal?

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>CH cast in a normal fight rarely generates aggro as it is so I dont see a bug.[/quote]

No offence, Deneldor, but where have you been fighting to come to this conclusion ?

Just to add, healing isnt rocket science. From 46-58 theyre probably using a mix of CB and Sup Heal, as well as regens. I'm curious how those that think its on the player does things in this scenario much different from anyone else.....

>>CH cast in a normal fight rarely generates aggro as it is so I dont see a bug.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No offence, Deneldor, but where have you been fighting to come to this conclusion<<

OK, maybe I worded it badly. CH does of course generate aggro but in 99% of grouping situations it isnt enough to pull a single mob off the tank unless some idiot cleric starts casting when he see's the inc message. IF theres more than one mob, and the adds are unmezzed, TR will draw the adds just as easily as CH.

In raid situations where CH would be needed too early and would draw aggro it's common to use a LoH chain for the first 20 secs or so to keep aggro off clerics. Without LoH I'm betting TR would get aggro if it landed on engage too. In fact whilst he might not be much of a raid I've felt it happen on Rumblecrush (notorious healer killer), and it hurt.

Healing aggro in the planes has gotten pretty crazy at times. I actually had to save up for a horse just so I could med without getting eaten on incoming, or from wandering adds that decided that high elven cleric is the other white meat...I've noticed that cheal will very often bring the monster over to express its personal appreciation at my attempts to keep my group alive.

I can't particularly comment on TR because I actually tell the druids I'm grouped with NOT to use it, but to instead use small heals to save people when it looks like cheal is going to land a little late. I love having a druid/shaman in my group who is a good spot-healer, they make me look good ;) (And that can take some work sometimes too! LOL) Combine spot-healing with regens and damage shields, along with debuffs, dots, and nukes, and you have a powerful grouping combination.

The problem I see it is that druids are simply not meant to function as a main healer, and the current gap in spells reinforces that theory IMHO. Scaling down SH and CB levelwise probably needs to be done though, although with some caution and care. Make a druid too efficient at healing 30-58 and they will still be displacing clerics from groups (until I started outpacing druidic healing, I found groups preferring druids to clerics for the additional utility.) So if druidic healing is scaled, then clerical soloing ability/group utility outside of just healing needs some tweaks as well.

Just to repeat: clerics don't want a monopoly on healing, we want to be valued in groups since its our only way to get xp. *Currently* our only group utility is in our healing.

"A druid is NOT a capable primary healer all the way up to 65"

This statement is false. Yes there are zones where druids can not be primary healers (examples being places like CT maze) But then again druids are not clerics and were never meant to be. Speaking for myself though I have no problems what so ever being the main healer for my groups ranging from 3 members to a full group in zones like Ssra Temple, Maidens Eye, Akheva, PoJ, PoN, and others. Although I am not 65 yet, other druids in my guild are and they have been main healers for groups in PoV among other places that I haven't had the chance to yet.

I tend to be someone who is happy with me class as it is and not to complain about it. I think druids are coming along nicely and I enjoy playing mine.

Marrvell
62 Druid

EDIT- forgot to put my name, wouldnt want it to be an anon post

Explain how its false instead of talking about what a duo did in Sraa or some other place. They probably had a Shaman slowing which makes the conditions ideal, where you probably need very little healing to begin with. Did they have downtime? Answer my question btw, how many CB's or NT's can you cast in one mana pool? How many hp's does your tank have? Hypothetically lets say he has 6k hp's, to heal him from blank to full, your blowing 2400 mana with those spells just for one mob. So how again are you a capable primary healer? I'd love to know :P

Fact is your not a good primary healer using patch heals like NT or CB for primary healing unless your in the right situation. Some of you Druids just dont get it. You do nothing different than anyone else does, you just like to believe your a better player somehow when reality is other players make things easier for you or the conditions were right. So many Druids talk about it being on the player, when in reality they dont do much different than any other Druid does, nor use different spells. It makes me laugh when people made that argument before TR came in about how our healing was fine pre-TR. You didnt do anything i didnt do, since i used CB, NT, NR, and ROTG, everything we had at our disposal. It still wasnt good enough for many situations, so please educate me on how a 'good' druid uses those spells. Can you guys at least educate the rest of us how you keep all these groups alive w/o downtime just using your 400 mana=1ksh heal(NT)(CB has pretty much the same ratio)?

And please save the "i know how to play a Druid, i dont complain" argument. Without the complaints you most likely would never have received TR and Supeiror Heal would still be lvl 55 or something or was it CB that got knocked down a few lvls? I cant remember...

I dont know who you are talking about when you are asking about a duo. The least i mentioned was 3.

Your blanket statement that druids are not capable primary healers is false. You want an explanation or reason for it being false i gave it to you all ready. I was the primary healer in the zones i mentioned. That proves your statement wrong because what you say can not be done has been done. If you can not see that there is nothing i can say or do here to change that for you.

Sorry i forgot to mention donwtime previously i will rectify it now. I had little to no downtime. That is right, we can pull almost constantly, having a good exp flow with little to no down time. There were accasions when it took a few minutes for me to med back up such as killing the Elites in Ssra or some hard pulls in the other zones but for the most part downtime wasnt needed.

As for how many CB's or NT's i can cast in one mana pool i have more then 3816 mana (that was level 60 pre PoP). Do the math yourself.

The MA's veried because the make up of the groups varied. I think i can say that for the most part they were either paladins or warriors. Warriors on average had more then 5800 HP and the paladins are somewhere below that.

I am going to point out since you are insinuatign it that i do not think I am "a better player somehow." I never said it and never implied it. I would call myself an average druid with good gear. I do not think i am inherently better then anyone else and i do not think that i play paticularly better then everyone else. Like i said i am an average player I just do not sell myself short.

Oh and please put the "I am Uberer then you, been around longer then you, know what i am talking about and you dont" attitude away. Being stubborn wont hurt anyone but yourself.

comon, getting to 53 as a druid is a breeze. you can do it in no time. the 5 lvls to 58 (most group desirablity) is slower, but i'd say faster than most classes. just suck it up and get lvling. healing is the most boring job in a group anyway.

3816 mana pool

5800 Tank hp pool

NT= 400mana for 978hps healed

3816/400 = 9.54 capable NT's before oom

5800/978 = 5.93 NT's to heal tank from 0 to full

Basically your full bar of mana is barely capable of healing your tank to full twice using NT's.

Conclusion: you were in ideal conditions and had the help mainly through other classes to manage what you did w/ little to no downtime. I cant recall the damage the snakes in Sraa do, but i assume they had to be slowed in your scenario or just being killed very fast.

Btw, my post was kinda a lump post directed at you and RaiyaEQ's post. I think you took some of what was aimed at her as aimed towards you which wasnt my intention, but that was my bad.

Yes, for all the Ssra Temple scenarios i had a slower of some kind either shaman, ench, or bard (dont think i played with a bard there as slower but no reason they couldnt do it). However not for all. Didnt have a slower in PoN, Akheva, or a few of the others oh and i did not have a clarity of any kind for the majority of these groups either.

You are certainly right when you say i had help being the primary healer through other classes. Thats what groups do, work together to accomplish stuff. It wasnt just me and the MA, it was my group versus one mob. For instance in PoN the group had an outragous DPS (2 rogues, monk, ranger etc)which is how i could do it without slow.

I have a question though. Why are you relegating a post 58 druid to primary heal with NT? In your orginal post i made reference to you said nothing about what spells they were using so i assumed they would be using spells appropriate to their level. I did not know you were requring that they use NT. I was not using NT in any of the situations i mentioned except in Akheva (easy zone to heal in). I was using TR. Also i have a goodly amount of mana regen through gear spells and AA which would give me more ability to heal then your figures project.

And yes i did take your post as aimed at me. My mistake, i apologise for that assumption, obviously i messed up.

Yeah, i probably should have used Chloroblast, but the ratio's are practically the same.

CB = 175 mana for 428 heal

NT = 400 mana for 978? heal


My point about having the help of other classes is that comes only from a Shaman or Ench for the most part, but clearly the Slow is doing most of the work and is the crutch we need to heal adequately. In terms of raw healing power, NT and CB are very poor primary healing spells. Its only workable because of the impact Slow has, thus "ideal conditions". I'm just distinguishing our healing ability separate of Slow, and it should be looked at in that manner. So the people saying they can heal fine and how its the player should stipulate that they have a pocket slower everywhere they go. They shouldnt attribute the ability to heal adequately to the skill of the player, but rather who that player has around them.

I have been the primary healer in PoN groups and did just fine without a slower using Chloro, NT, and TR. The PoP mobs hit hard so it's as good a test as any.

Broomhilda do you honestly think anyone goes into Ssra without having a Enchanter or Shaman for Slows? Usually an enchanter because CC is needed as well there. Be reasonable. EVERY group looks for a slower, not just the one with a Druid in it. Going somewhere in PoP without a slower is just asking for trouble. Mobs hit HARD and until slowed they hit fast. Nevermind the fact that slowers Haste the melee as well, contributing even more to DPS. I dont get the whole classes that support the healing argument, its a group they are SUPPOSED to work together.


Belkram Marrwolf


PS slowers = Bards, Beastlords, Enchanters AND Shaman. You can get a slower with a little patience in group selection.

Belkram,

I said "for the most part", i really didnt include Beastlords and Bards since i dont see too many of them, not nearly as many Enchs and Shamans. Beastlord slow isnt as good btw, think its like 35%? then 15% with epic? Something like that, not entirely sure...

So your saying everytime a Druid heals they automatically have a slower? Ever do a group without a slower or not find one available in a zone? IF your gonna assume a slower is automatically present in every healing situation then why not just assume we all automatically have KEI's, Evacs, SOWs, etc. because those classes are so abundant?

When you critique your healing abilities as a Cleric, do you critique them automatically assuming you have a slower present in every scenario? Of course not, you view your CH separate of Slow, so why should it be any different when a Druid critiques their healing abilities separate of Slow? They afterall are 2 separate abilities coming from different classes(excluding Shamans), and you just cant assume theres a slower always there. Thats the problem whenever we talk abbout a Druids healing abilities, because many people here assume a Slower is always there then they say we heal fine. Its just silly how they'll couple our healing power automatically with Slow. Its a very bias view, and people seem to only apply it to Druid healing. I'm sure Clerics dont view their healing abilities everytime assuming theres a slower present in every situation.

Thats the point i was trying to make. Our heals before TR are very poor primary healing spells. Theyre basically using mana intensive quick patch heals as their primary healing spell, and it doesnt work without the crutch of other classes(slowers). They think their ability to heal well was their skill as a player, when in reality it was the crutch of another class being there or even the group makeup(killing very fast). The reality is our raw healing power before TR is very poor when viewed separate of other classes. And as i stated, you cant assume a Druid healing automatically comes with a slower everytime, because it doesnt.

People who complain just for complains makes me sad. This is the reason other classes like to put the whining druids on ignore. I don't care you know this or not, but keep in mind. Primary healer = cleric. That's the way EQ is design. If you like to be a primary healer so much, maybe you should stop your druid and start to play a cleric.

How many NT, TR, CB, KR, NI I can cast to keep my MA alive in groups? The answer is I dont know. I have 4600+ mana before buffs. My tank normally has 8000 xp group buffed or 9100 raid buffed. Depends on where you want to xp, but I can't recall a place that I ran oom from healing. I normally xp in akheva, ssra mines, ME, UP, DN (before PoP), or PoV, HoH (after PoP). I either duo or full group in any of the places above. Have I once ran oom? No. I always have druid self buffs (potc/potn/mask of stalker), and KEI. It's even easier after PoP released cuz most of the PoP zones are outdoor zones. Outdoor zones = horse = faster mana regen.

Stop the complain just for the complain's sack stuff. If you as a druid can't heal your group, maybe your group doesn't setup correctly. Maybe you shouldn't be the main healer. After all, there's still a class called CLERIC.

RaiyaEQ,

my point was it wasnt your skills that make you able to heal adequately as you stated it being the "skill of the player", but rather the support you have and from what it seems your equipment. Its naive to judge everyone on the same scale, and then blame their skills for their ineffectiveness like you did. Again, i'm more than open to learning how a good druid heals, but reality is we all use the same healing spellls if we know anything about our class, and theres a limit to how much we can heal which isnt alot unless conditions are ideal.

Btw, i hope your not using TR because that is a primary healing spell. And from your perspective Druids arent supposed to be primary healers right?

Beastlords can slow 50 percent at level 60 and 65 percent at level 65. They have 85 percent haste at 60 with the spell itself available at 80 percent haste at level 59. They also have some nice attack buffs that stack with avatar, some ferocious reagent costs though but 100attack and 50 to all resists at level 60 and 150 attack and 65 to all resists at level 65.

Beastlords look like they come into their own as a true support class in the same vein as the enchanter and shaman, being a mix of the two. I say that because they dont have significant heals nor do they have mesmerize, but they have skills in common in terms of group enhancement and mob debuffs. Also taking into consideration their warder and better than most casters melee skills they make a nice well rounded class.

Definitely a niche class but one that a LOT of players underestimate. Do NOT pick them for a healer, pick them for haste/slower/slower than ench mana regen. I would say this is a class that could compliment the Druid class quite well.

/Shrug just my thoughts, Belkram Marrwolf

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>i hope your not using TR because that is a primary healing spell. And from your perspective Druids arent supposed to be primary healers right?[/quote]

No, I don't use TR. Why would I be using TR when I can use a spell that allows me to heal 5500+?

You misunderstand my point as druids aren't suppose to be a primary healer arguement. My point is, a druid isn't suppose to be a primary healer because that's what cleric is for. I also said a druid can be a primary healer when the situation is allowed. I've been primary healer at many many xp groups, raid groups when I need to be. I was also in cheal chain for VT, ssra, PoP boss mobs.

I like to see the druid community to utilize what we have, use our skills better, get aa to help out our weakness, not just ask for more and more and more. We think our heals were weak, now, we get an upgrade, but then some of the ppl still want more. To me, that's nuts. Keep one thing in mind, a druid != cleric hence a druid's heal should never be as good/efficient as a cleric.

I am happy with what we have right now. I can heal a 9k tank from 2 bulbs of health to almost full. It's good enough for xp groups. There's no secret in EQ, after all, the more time you waste in game, the better your char will be. It's not hard to be good when you have what you need on playing the healer role.

While healing agro might seem a simple concept, it isn't. Healing Agro is indirectly affected by many issues, since they affect the frequency of heals, how early the first heal is cast, and so on:

- Mob DPS - the faster/harder the mob hits, the earlier you need to Heal. Since the MT hasnt built up as much agro in a short period of time compared to a long period of time, your Heal "seems" to have more agro

- Slowed/Slowable Mobs - Ties to above

- Tank HPs / AC - This one is somewhat more subtle, but an uber tank with insane HPs will need heals much later than a blowup doll tank. Sometimes AC affects this, but in my experience AC is much less significant in EQ's end game, especially in PoP.

- Tank Weapons - A warrior with a Bloodfrenzy, Blade of Carnage, or even a SoD will be able to generate a lot more agro, and more quickly, than a gimp warrior. This makes your Heals "relatively" less agro.

Combine all of these elements and even a 2boxed druid can be primary healer, even in PoV Desert (and easily too!)

"I am happy with what we have right now. I can heal a 9k tank from 2 bulbs of health to almost full. It's good enough for xp groups. There's no secret in EQ, after all, the more time you waste in game, the better your char will be. It's not hard to be good when you have what you need on playing the healer role."



Actually i feel the same way which is why i havent been bitching and moaning nearly as much as i was pre-TR and POP. I think we're pretty well balanced now, but that only goes for 58+, the ones <58 imo have it alot harder. I just dont think CB and Sup Heal are adequate heals for those levels all the way up to 58, which was the argument alot of us were making to even get TR in the first place.

I dont necessarily agree that Clerics should be the only primary healers during those levels. It never made sense to me that such an important part of starting a group could only be filled by one class. Where it takes combinations of other classes to do it half as good. Remember there are 3 legitemate tank classes a group can choose from. There are tons of damage classes a group can choose from. There are multiple CC classes a group can choose from. Almost for every role of a group there are multiple options except the primary healer role. Again, that changed with TR, but not for the ones <58. Imo, its more detrimental to the ability to form groups than it is to just give every cleric a group whenever they need one.

On a side note i think Verant should give Clerics better soloing abilities than what they have, since it really doesnt hurt anybody, due to how TR changed things.

I have to say, Deneldor, that my experience is very different from yours. As far as I can see TR generates a <strong>huge</strong> amount less aggro than CH.

I don't have any issues with druid healing as it currently exists... I spent an very pleasant couple of hours as the healer in a group consisting of a Monk, Shadow Knight, Enchanter, Wizard, Rogue, Druid (Me), fighting at the Dragon Gate in Plane of Valor. We had one death (the Monk on a pull) and found a res for him and resumed fighting.

Every so often I had to request a minute to meditate, but that isn't so bad. Would have been even less frequently if I was not an Evoc druid with no Healing-related AA, no SCM AA's and no healing-related focus items, or if I had Karana's Renewal and level 64 :P

Thru the course of the group, the SK left and was replaced by a warrior, and then the Enchanter had to leave and we picked up a Shaman. Shaman slows (and her ability to heal herself after getting slow agro) certainly sped things up as I wasn't using as much mana but it was doable either way.

The only down side was that one of the other groups in the zone drug their cleric over to us to ask for a res for him and we had to explain that we couldn't help him :)

-> "I have to say, Deneldor, that my experience is very different from yours. As far as I can see TR generates a huge amount less aggro than CH" <-

..I agree, and thats exactly as it should be as its 2.5 times as powerful. If something thats 2.5 times as powerful gets aggro "occasionally", (I've never been in a group where the cleric got aggro more than occasionally) then TR should rarely if ever get aggro.

So things are as they should be and people should really stop bringing it up unless they want to see the healing role taken away quicker than it arrived. If we get aggro in even a tier 2 plane we have poor AC, poor HP and no DA to save us.

Alright I have to point something out here. The only time a tanks full hps matter is when you stop healing him so he can get enough hate so the mob wont eat you. Other than tha its irrelivant. Wait how is that you say? Think for a second what happens when a tank reaches 0 hps? Everyone else also tends to and you get asked to wait while it loads something. Now the other reason its irrelevant is every bit of damage done has to be healed eventually. Regen does help but that makes druids even better then, so we will leave that out. The true factor you want is AC. Less AC = more damage to tank = more healing needed. So when arguing these things please keep that in mind.

Or maybe im missing something. If so please point it out my reasoning is very easy to follow.

i cant believe someone said that AC is the "true factor".. any tank 58+ will have an over abundance of AC, and HP is always more important than AC.

Yeah, AC means very little imo. I dont really think a tank getting hit between 97-280 as opposed to getting hit for 90-270 makes that much of a difference, especially if we're talking about Cleric CH's here. Even with TR, the hp's healed can go over thier total hp's at times.

I love tanks with lots of HP's as a healer. It gives you a larger cushion to work with. Some tanks against some tough mobs i start to TR early, like when hes at 3+ bubs of health and it still barely lands in time. Other tanks i can wait till down to 1-2 bubs and know my TR will land, even with some room for damage spikes.