View Full Forums : Gun Ownership - Brazil


Thicket Tundrabog
10-24-2005, 12:58 PM
The U.S. isn't the only country trying to deal with gun ownership issues. Brazil vacation anyone? :)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4368598.stm

Panamah
10-24-2005, 01:15 PM
Did you ever see "City of God"? After seeing that... I won't go to Brazil! They have full scale warfare in the streets if that movie is accurate.

Aidon
10-24-2005, 01:45 PM
I rather suspect some people think the same thing about America after watching Goodfellas or Empire or some such.

Panamah
10-24-2005, 02:06 PM
Problem is, City of God wasn't fiction.

Jinjre
10-24-2005, 03:03 PM
From the article linked above:
There are estimated to be more than 17 million guns in Brazil, nine million of which are not registered, according to a survey by non-governmental groups.

I wonder how those numbers compare to the US.

Klath
10-24-2005, 03:39 PM
I wonder how those numbers compare to the US.
In terms of the overall gun ownership, they aren't as well armed as our citizens. IIRC, ~35% of Americans own guns (one or more). If there are 17 million guns in Brazil and the total population is 116 million then at most, 15% of Brazilians own guns (and that assumes that nobody owns more than one which, of course, is an absurd assumption).

Aidon
10-24-2005, 04:37 PM
Only 35% of americans own guns?

Meh, we need to get more guns out there.

oddjob1244
10-24-2005, 05:01 PM
The U.S. isn't the only country trying to deal with gun ownership issues. Brazil vacation anyone? :)

"A proposal to ban the sale of guns in Brazil has been defeated by a clear majority in a referendum."

Looks like they're dealing with it just fine.

Anka
10-24-2005, 05:39 PM
They're dealing with it so well that they have organised crime and street gangs that are totally out of control. Their police force suffers from corruption and often cannot or will not intervene to protect the citizens. The public is so scared of violent crime that they've only voted to keep the sale of guns for desparate personal protection.

Guns kill one person in Brazil every 15 minutes, giving it the world's highest death toll from firearms.

Just fine then?

Panamah
10-24-2005, 05:48 PM
I'm telling you, see City of God, you'll love it. Great story, although incredibly violent.

oddjob1244
10-24-2005, 05:51 PM
Their police force suffers from corruption and often cannot or will not intervene to protect the citizens.

So who is going to enforce this ban on guns then? Take away the guns from the legit cops? That'll help!

Klath
10-24-2005, 05:57 PM
Only 35% of americans own guns?
The figures I saw varied widely so I took a rough average. I suspect that it's probably not too far off the mark.

Klath
10-24-2005, 06:15 PM
They're dealing with it so well that they have organised crime and street gangs that are totally out of control. Their police force suffers from corruption and often cannot or will not intervene to protect the citizens. The public is so scared of violent crime that they've only voted to keep the sale of guns for desparate personal protection.
It would seem to me that the best way to deal with the problem would be to clean up the corruption in the police force and provide them with whatever resources they need to do their job. Banning guns seems like a silly/lazy attempt at a solution. After all, if the police are corrupt and ineffective, the only people who will be stopped from having guns are the people who choose to comply with the ban. My guess is that these people aren't the ones doing all the killing.

Anka
10-24-2005, 07:33 PM
There is a problem not only with police corruption, but also that the police don't want to go into ghettos where the kids will shoot them as much as talk to them. Telling the police to just get on with their job is just as lazy a solution as banning forearms, added to the fact that it hasn't worked for the last twenty years.

Brazil needs something new to happen and if they're not banning firearms then they need something else equally radical. Other countries, such as Jamaica, are also plagued with drug barons and yardie gangs and they can't just tell their police to get on with it either. Remember that Columbia and Panama needed military intervention in the end to get rid of drug barons with private armies. It's not a trivial problem.

Klath
10-24-2005, 08:23 PM
No, I agree, it's not a trivial problem. However, the guns are a symptom of the problem, not the cause. Banning them will only embolden the people who are using them for illegal purposes.

Telling the police to just get on with their job is just as lazy a solution as banning forearms
Banning forearms would indeed be a radical solution. :)

MadroneDorf
10-25-2005, 03:57 AM
Banning guns would only work in the longterm IMO, in the short term the decreased amount of guns for the general public, and security forces would have trouble with the massive amount of guns that would exist on the black market.

IMO violence/deaths would go up after banning guns, spiking relativily soon, then slowly make a decline as the difficulty of obtaining guns and bullets for criminals increase, however it would not go below the pre law violence figure for several years (taking out other factors), although it would eventually, however it would have signicent political fallout for both the individuals and the party who pushed it forward.

Of course I dont have any real facts or anything to back that up just my opinion!

Panamah
10-25-2005, 09:54 AM
Guns are a djinni that's really hard to put back in the bottle.

Aidon
10-25-2005, 10:40 AM
Private firearm ownership should never be bottled. It is the threat which keeps governments in line, or in truly bad cases, at least keeps them from mass slaughter.

Noone's ever committed mass genocide against armed people. Its hard to convince a few thousand people armed with AKs they should get in a nice group to be machinegunned into a mass grave.

Panamah
10-25-2005, 11:17 AM
Heh! That's sounds good, until the drug dealers and criminals are conducting warfare in the streets and you've got pre-teens carrying around guns.

Aidon
10-25-2005, 11:56 AM
Pre-teens can't legally carry guns anyways. Outlawing them completely won't change that.

Nor will guns being outlawed stop criminals from having and using them. No more than making alcohol or drugs illegal made people stop drinking or stop using drugs. It simply turns certain sections of our populous into criminals where they were not criminals before the law was passed.

By the way, referencing your earlier comment that City of God or whatever was based on truth whereas Goodfellas and the ilk are not...indeed Goodfellas is based on a true story. Movies, even movies based on true events, are sensationalist by their very nature.

Aidon
10-25-2005, 01:29 PM
When you arm the population they genocide one another, saving the evil dictators the trouble.

Actually, the two largest massacres in the history of our planet occurred under regimes where the population was not permitted to arm itself.

Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia.

Anka
10-25-2005, 04:13 PM
And the mass killings that occur in Africa still occur against unarmed people...because if the people were armed, they'd shoot back and those who like commiting genocide generally like to ensure their butchery is unopposed.


Nope. Didn't work in Rwanda. Isn't working now in Sudan. There are plenty of guns about in Sudan in the hands of those who oppose the government but it hasn't stopped any persecution. It's just created another group of bandits who are creating their own tyranny. It hasn't worked in many African countries. I'm not a great expert on African politics but giving everyone a gun and telling them to get on with it just hasn't worked in Africa.

It's a fair argument that trying to force democratic change on a dictator like Mugabe just isn't working either, but the violent alternatives seen across the rest of Africa are often just as bad if not worse.

Aidon
10-25-2005, 07:13 PM
The problem in the Sudan is the fact that the people don't have guns. You can only legally own a gun in the Sudan by permit...with very specific requirements, subject to Governmental approval. Guess what...the Sudanese government doesn't seem to have issued permits to those people they are attempting to annihilate via genocide in Darfur. Imagine that.

Oh, and the UN relief treaties forbid relief workers from brining in weapons to allow the targets of genocide to defend themselves.

Anka
10-25-2005, 07:29 PM
There are plenty of people in Sudan with guns. They have been in civil war for a decade.

The UN is absolutely correct not to bring weapons into a war zone. Why do you keep expecting a peace organisation to act in a military fashion?

Aidon
10-26-2005, 09:11 AM
Because one of the major reasons for the formation of the UN was to ensure there was never another Holocaust.

Its been stunningly ineffective in its attempts.

The UN should be in Darfur with tanks and helicopters protecting those poor people and should have been years ago. Instead they try the 'peaceful' method and talk alot, while unarmed villages are rounded up and slaughtered (after a lil friendly rape, of course).

Anka
10-26-2005, 10:48 AM
The UN is not a military body. As long as you expect the UN to be an enforcement body you will always be disappointed.

Aidon
10-26-2005, 11:41 AM
Really?

Then why is there a Security Council?

Its not named the Suggestion Council.

A body which intends to institute policy must have the means to enforce it. Certain issues demand military force.

But, perhaps, this is why many nations view the UN as irrelevant. That and the fact that it panders to the Arab nations.

Thicket Tundrabog
10-26-2005, 12:47 PM
I don't think that too many nations view the United Nations as irrelevant. Some governments have gotten perturbed because the United Nations doesn't see things the way they do. (Hope I'm not being too subtle). These nations then feed their media, which influences the opinions of their citizens. It's a natural reaction... "since we're right, they (United Nations) must be wrong".

Stormhaven
10-26-2005, 12:55 PM
The UN is pointless, but not for any of the reasons you stated.

Anka
10-26-2005, 03:34 PM
The UN provides a mechanism for member nations to collectively ensure security. It does not take the provision of security away from member nations, which is surely how it should be. If the member nations of the UN wanted to collectively intervene in Sudan then the UN would provide a means for them to do it. The UN is not an obstacle to intervention in Sudan as the member countries would not agree on action whatever forum they were in.

Do you really want the UN to take control of your security, or anyone elses?

Aidon
10-26-2005, 03:49 PM
The UN is an obstacle when they demand that relief only be food and drink and medicine which can't get to those who need it, because noone's armed but the bad guys.

If the UN is too gormless to stop genocide on its own, at least let people provide the means for resistance to those being slaughtered.

Anka
10-26-2005, 09:14 PM
The UN is an obstacle when they demand that relief only be food and drink and medicine which can't get to those who need it, because noone's armed but the bad guys.

The US could go into Sudan tomorrow with troops and distribute food and guns. The UN isn't stopping them. It's the member countries of the UN that, for whatever reason, don't want intervention. Whatever forum for international politics was in place it would be unable to agree on intervention in Sudan. Don't blame the UN for reflecting the views of its member nations.

Aidon
10-27-2005, 08:39 AM
So, basically, the UN is worthless and pointless. Thank you for confirming that ;)

Anka
10-27-2005, 09:21 AM
It's not the world police, if that's what you want. I don't think you even want it to be the world police though. Would you give the UN the right to launch military intevention in the US, or Mexico, or Canada? I don't think so, not without the full agreement of member states. It shouldn't have its own power of intervention in the Sudan either.

Aidon
10-27-2005, 09:50 AM
If its incapable of stopping genocide, then it is a worthless body at its root without the footing to demand anything of any nation.

Stormhaven
10-27-2005, 09:53 AM
<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/10/27/oil.food.report.ap/index.html">Two good examples</a> <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/10/27/ahmadinejad.reaction/index.html">of why the UN doesn't work</a>.

Anka
10-27-2005, 11:47 AM
If its incapable of stopping genocide, then it is a worthless body at its root without the footing to demand anything of any nation.


The UN cannot in itself demand anything of any nation. Yet again you are ignoring that if the UN member nations want to make demands then they can do so. The UN facilitates that. If the member nations cannot collectively agree to stop genocide then that is the fault of the member nations, not the UN.

Do you want the UN taking charge of punishment of all war crimes? That would mean that US soldiers would be put under juristiction of international courts. If not, then stop demanding that the UN have juristiction over everything else that doesn't happen to be American. If the US wants international law to be stronger and universally applied then it must itself submit to that international law.

Panamah
10-27-2005, 11:54 AM
Yeah, that UN... man, what do they ever do?

-------------------------------
UNITED NATIONS ACCOMPLISHMENTS
-------------------------------

1. Deploying more than 35 peace-keeping missions. There are presently 16 active peace-keeping forces in operation.

2. Credited with negotiating 172 peaceful settlements that have ended regional conflicts

3. The UN has enabled people in over 45 countries to participate in free and fair elections

4. Development - The system's annual disbursements, including loans and grants, amount to more than $10 billion.

5. UNICEF spends more than $800 million a year, primarily on immunization, health care, nutrition and basic education in 138 countries.

6. UN Human Rights Commission has focused world attention on cases of torture, disappearance, and arbitrary detention and has generated international pressure.

7. UN Conference eon Environment and Development held in Rio de Janeiro in 1992, resulted in treaties on bio-diversity and climate change.

8. Has helped minimize the threat of a nuclear war by inspecting nuclear reactors in 90.

9. Over 300 international treaties, on topics as varied as human rights conventions to agreements on the use of outer space and seabed.

10. The International Court of Justice has helped settle international disputes involving territorial issues, diplomatic relations, hostage-taking, and economic rights.

11. The UN was a major factor in bringing about the downfall of the apartheid system.

12. More than 30 million refugees fleeing war, famine or persecution have received aid from the UN High Commissioner for Refugees.

13. Aiding Palestinian Refugees with free schooling, essential health care, relief assistance and key social services virtually without interruption. There are 2.9 million refugees in the Middle East served by UNRWA.

14. Alleviating Chronic Hunger and Rural Poverty in Developing Countries, providing credit that has benefited over 230 million people in nearly 100 developing countries.

15. The Africa Project Development Facility has helped entrepreneurs in 25 countries to find financing for new enterprises. The Facility has completed 130 projects which represent investments of $233 million and the creation of 13,000 new jobs, saving some $131 million in foreign exchange annually.

16. Promoting Women's Rights ­have supported programs and projects to improve the quality of life for women in over 100 countries, including credit and training, marketing opportunities, etc.

17. Providing Safe Drinking Water ­ Available to 1.3 billion people in rural areas during the last decade.

18. Eradicating Smallpox ­ through vaccinations and monitoring. Helped wipe out polio from the Western Hemisphere, with global eradication expected soon.

19. Pressing for Universal Immunization of polio, tetanus, measles, whooping cough, diphtheria and tuberculosis ­ has a 80% immunization rate, saving the lives of more than 3 million children each year.

20. Reducing child mortality rates, halved since 1960, increasing the average life expectancy from 37 to 67 years.

21. Fighting parasitic diseases, such as saving the lives of 7 million children from going blind from the river blindness and rescued many others from guinea worm and other tropical diseases.

22. Promoting investment in developing countries ­promoting entrepreneurship and self-reliance, industrial cooperation and technology transfer and cost-effective, ecologically-sensitive industry.

23. Reducing the effects of natural disasters ­early warning system, which utilizes thousands of surface monitors as well as satellites, has provided information for the dispersal of oil spills and has predicted long-term droughts.

24. Providing food to victims of emergencies ­ Over two million tons of food each year. 30 million people facing acute food shortages in 36 countries benefited from this assistance last year.

25. Clearing land mines - The United Nations is leading an international effort to clear land minds from Afghanistan, Angola, Cambodia, El Salvador, Mozambique, Rwanda and Somalia.

26. Protecting the ozone layer & global warming­highlighting the damage caused to the earth's ozone layer. As a result there has been a global effort to reduce chemical emissions of substances that have caused the depletion of the ozone.

27. Preventing over-fishing

28. Limiting deforestation and promoting sustainable forestry development ­in 90 countries.

29. Cleaning up pollution ­encouraged adversaries such as Syria and Israel, and Turkey and Greece to work together to clean up beaches. As a result, more than 50% of the previously polluted beaches are now usable.

30. Protecting consumers' health ­have established standards for over 200 food commodities and safety limits for more than 3,000 food contaminants.

31. Reducing fertility rates ­ Family planning programs. Women in developing countries are having fewer children ­ from six births per woman in the 1960s to 3.5 today. In the 1960s, only 10% of the world's families were using effective methods of family planning. The number now stands at 55 percent.

32. Fighting drug abuse ­Reduce demand for illicit drugs, suppress drug trafficking, and has helped farmers to reduce their economic reliance on growing narcotic crops by shifting farm production toward other dependable sources of income.

33. Improving global trade relations ­ The UN Conference on Trade and Development (UNCTAD) has worked to obtain special trade preferences for developing countries to export their products to developed countries with fair prices.

34. Promoting economic reform ­ Together with the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund, the United Nations has helped many countries improve their economic management, offered training for government finance officials, and provided financial assistance to countries experiencing temporary balance of payment difficulties.

35. Promoting worker rights ­worked to guarantee freedom of the right to association, the right to organize, collective bargaining, setting worker safety standards, the rights of indigenous and tribal peoples, promote employment and equal remuneration and has sought to eliminate discrimination and child labor.

36. Introducing improved agricultural techniques and reducing costs ­Resulted in improved crop yields, Asian rice farmers have saved $12 million on pesticides and governments over $150 a year in pesticide subsidies.

37. Promoting stability and order in the world's oceans ­global agreement for the protection, preservation and peaceful development of the oceans.

38. Improving air and sea travel ­Setting safety standards for sea and air travel, making air travel the safest mode of transportation.

39. Protecting intellectual property ­Protection for new inventions and maintains a register of nearly 3 million national trademarks. artists, composers and authors worldwide.

40. Promoting the free flow of information ­free of censorship and culturally unbiased, aid to develop and strengthen communication systems, established news agencies and supported an independent press.

41. Improving global communications ­ Regulated international mail delivery, coordinated use of the radio spectrum, promoted cooperation in assigning positions for stationary satellites, and established international standards for communications, thereby ensuring the unfettered flow of information around the globe.

42. Empowering the voiceless ­recognize the needs and contributions of groups usually excluded from decision-making such as the aging, children, youth, homeless, indigenous an disabled people.

43. Establishing "children as a zone of peace" ­ From El Salvador to Lebanon, Sudan to former Yugoslavia, provide vaccines and other assistance desperately needed by children caught in armed conflict.

44. Generating worldwide commitment in support of the needs of children ­more than 150 governments have committed to reaching over 20 specific measurable goals to radically improve children's lives by the year 2000.

45. Improving education in developing countries ­60% of adults in developing countries can now read and write, and 80 percent of children in these countries attend school.

46. Improving literacy for women ­Raise the female literacy rate in developing countries from 36 percent in 1970 to 56 percent in 1990.

47. Safeguarding and preserving historic cultural and architectural sites ­protected through the efforts of UNESCO, and international conventions have been adopted to preserve cultural property.

48. Facilitating academic and cultural exchanges encouraged scholarly and scientific cooperation, networking of institutions and promotion of cultural expressions, including those of minorities and indigenous people.

Aidon
10-27-2005, 12:32 PM
I love how they think its a good thing the money they give to Palestinian terrorists.

Did you know UNRWA composes of 2% of the UN budget? More than all other UN refugee programs combined.