Damn our evil crass commercial American souls! (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051026/ap_on_re_eu/spooked_by_halloween)

Carved a pumpkin for the first time ever this year. It was pretty... ucky.
I think I got that out of my system now.

I don't dislike Europeans but...
It's an American custom that's got nothing to do with our culture," Kohler wrote in letters sent out to households. By midweek, the mayors of eight neighboring villages had thrown their support behind the boycott. So had local police, annoyed with the annual Oct. 31 uptick in vandalism and mischief.
It has nothing to do with our culture either. We stole it from the Mexicans didn't we?

Every culture needs a holiday where you can cross dress openly.

You're thinking of Day of (for?) the Dead, I think. I believe Halloween is more directly related to Samhain and All Hallows Eve.

Ah, here we go. It looked like a conglomeration of holidays: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween

The holiday seems to have come from Europe in the first place. Granted, we stamped it with a uniquely commercial stamp as we do for everything.

Wow! In the UK they used a turnip instead of a pumpkin! Baldrick would have been overjoyed!

Baldrick would have been overjoyed!
Baldy is known even here?!?

Kind of a shame that in this day and age of the internet and e-mail mania I can't seem to find any way to send the mayor a comment on this. Anyone have suggestions on how I might do a better search for an address or e-mail for Hans Kohler? *grin* wouldn't it be fun to explain (politely, of course) how very wrong he is?

Baldrick, the side-kick to The Blackadder? The turnip fixated village idiot? "I have a cunning plan", that Baldy?

Of course he is!

The same "omg evil commercial american crap"-thing was yelled by cultural conservative elitists about Valentine's and mother's/father's day back when we first started importing those.

So do as one does with those kinds of people - laugh at them and ignore them and do what you want. Personally, I don't do halloween, I see no reason to. But far be it from me to tell those who do how dumb they are or whatnot.

In Britain we seem to be losing an old holiday of our own, Guy Fawkes night on November 5th, and it's getting submerged under Halloween. Guido Fawkes was a dutch mercenary who tried to blow up the houses of parliament in the gunpowder plot and for some reason we commerate it by burning his effigy on a bonfire and letting off fireworks. It's a 500 year old festival. Nowadays there are less and less bonfires and you never see kids building their own 'guy'.

Instead kids get a dustbin liner and a plastic mask as a costume and then pester people for sweets. They also seem to play tricks whatever anyone gives them. With the two events being close together they've got one particularly bad combination, kids using bangers and smoke bombs as 'tricks' on pets and older people. The kids seem to enjoy it, but I'd guess that we've got the worst and most commercial bits of the US halloween and less of the creative and positive aspects.

Anyway, we are losing some of our own culture, the relevance of festival that has celebrated real events in our own history. It's not overly surprising that some people aren't happy about it. Nobody is being anti-american, it's just being for our own history and culture. If Thanksgiving was replaced by 'world celebration day' or something equally banal then plenty of Americans would get annoyed too.

Nobody is being anti-american, it's just being for our own history and culture. If Thanksgiving was replaced by 'world celebration day' or something equally banal then plenty of Americans would get annoyed too.The point is, Halloween isn't an American created holiday. It apparently was started as a celebration of the Celtic new year and was transitioned over the centuries. Begging for treats and the doing of "tricks" also originated in Medieval times, NOT by American Indians (who were the only inhabitants in the US at the time) but by Europeans in Europe. In essence, we're getting the blame for something YOU and your neighbors created.

Did you read the link Panamah posted? Clearly the holiday is NOT attributed to Americans. Here are a few more:
http://www.neopagan.net/Halloween-Origins.html

http://halloween.monstrous.com/halloween_origins.htm


I have no idea where the bit about making Thanksgiving into a "world celebration day" has to do with anything related to the discussions of Halloween.

I have no idea where the bit about making Thanksgiving into a "world celebration day" has to do with anything related to the discussions of Halloween.

I was giving an example of how Americans might feel if one of your holidays was subsumed under something else. It doesn't really matter whether Halloween is American or from anywhere else. Some people are annoyed that it is taking over from other festivals that do genuinely represent their culture, festivals that they grew up with.

There's no point telling me that halloween is a European holiday. I know for a fact that it wasn't really celebrated in Britain when I was a kid. I've seen the holiday change over my lifetime.

And you wonder why the rest of the world hates Americans?

Kind of a shame that in this day and age of the internet and e-mail mania I can't seem to find any way to send the mayor a comment on this. Anyone have suggestions on how I might do a better search for an address or e-mail for Hans Kohler? *grin* wouldn't it be fun to explain (politely, of course) how very wrong he is?

uahahaha

http://www.vorarlberg.at/landtag/landtag/abgeordnete/oevp/hanskohler.htm

"Beruf:

Bürgermeister der Marktgemeinde Rankweil" plugged into bablefish comes out:

"Occupation: Mayor of the market municipality Rankweil"

So I believe the correct answer is:

Telefon +43 (0) 5522/405-102
Telefax +43 (0) 5522/405-600
Fraktion ÖVP
E-Mail hans.kohler@rankweil.at

I googled Hans Kohler and filtered results with a TLD of .at

The whole "debil oh nos!" thing is one that always annoys me. If anyone that claimed that actually looked into the research they'd see it has nothing to do with cavorting with demons and even less to do with Satan. In fact, kids dress up as demons to hide from them, not to party with them.

As far as it spreading to Europe, I have to wonder how much of that Americans can actually be blamed for. How can we know it's not Europeans adapting a holiday they like of ours? For example, in certain areas of China, the American culture is highly revered, much to the chagrin of the government. That can't really be blamed on us if someone else likes our traditions more than their own, can it?

And you wonder why the rest of the world hates Americans?

Hey, the kids should love us. I know I'd want a holiday where I get free candy for bugging my neighbors if we didn't already have it. :P

As far as it spreading to Europe, I have to wonder how much of that Americans can actually be blamed for. How can we know it's not Europeans adapting a holiday they like of ours?

Of course it's the Europeans adapting a holiday. Contrary to popular belief, there are NOT subliminal "hi we are teh americans, you shall celebrate halloween and you shall like it dammit"-messages hidden in our cereal comercials. It's European businessmen that have figured "hey if we actually offer all this halloween stuff in our stores, I bet they'll buy it!". And they do.

I read this article yesterday. I was thinking of posting it here, but under a different title... something like "Muckraking Journalists Stir Up Crap News". The origins of Halloween won't ever be definitively determined but it sure isn't American!! Ancient Celtic day to celebrate seasonal transition from summer to winter is one popular theory. Europeans don't want Halloween because it's American? --- what a bunch of BS. Next the trash media will be telling us that there is a backlash against Santa Claus, because it's an American tradition. Yeah right.

Also, there are lots of places in North American where folks are trying to modify or ban Halloween. I personally like Halloween, but agree that the vandalism and pranks have no place.

There is definitely a generational gap in liking halloween here. The kids like it. The elderly detest it. The older people never had it when they were kids and never went to any halloween parties. Their generation still don't celebrate it now. They don't understand it.

To an elderly person or couple it can actually be very scary. Strange kids coming round to your house with an excuse to do tricks isn't just a minor nuisance, it can be a big trouble. They don't want to be opening their doors to stangers all the time. The teenagers have no respect and can cause a lot of crime.

I know my parents even find it physically painful to be up and down out of chairs opening the front door all night. They're a bit deaf and worried about not hearing the doorbell and getting pranks and tricks. Mending minor pranks, like turning back over flower pots say, would be really arduos for them. I know that they are also worried about kids setting fire to the house with bangers and fireworks.

It's not just for one day either, the kids come round all the week before. It's not just neighbourhood kids either, most of them are from so far away that you won't see them again for a year until next halloween. The costumes are so poor that they give no pleasure to the people they're visiting.

Once each generation grows up with halloween it'll be different, but at the moment there is a generation who get nothing but trouble and really wish it had never caught on.

Europeans don't want Halloween because it's American? --- what a bunch of BS. Next the trash media will be telling us that there is a backlash against Santa Claus, because it's an American tradition.

Actually, it's not.
http://www.the-north-pole.com/history/

While I was reading that I had thought that Halloween came from Europe in the first place. Selective memory is a nice thing, isn't it?

y favourite day of the dead would be from a Babylon 5 episode described here (http://www.greenmanreview.com/film/film_dayofthedead.html).

Actually, it's not.
http://www.the-north-pole.com/history/

I rather suspect Thicket was aware Santa isn't American in origin and such was the point of his comment =P

Actually, it's not.
http://www.the-north-pole.com/history/

Lol... sarcasm doesn't come across too well in writing. Yes, I knew that Santa Claus is not American. Saint Nicholas has been around a lot longer than America. The Dutch have Sinterklaas and his sidekick, a Moor boy named Black Peter.

Damn Santa for keeping the black man down!

Geez! Sounds like parents need to supervise their kids a little closer in your area! Didn't the Nanny based reality TV shows take hold in England?

There is definitely a generational gap in liking halloween here. The kids like it. The elderly detest it. The older people never had it when they were kids and never went to any halloween parties. Their generation still don't celebrate it now. They don't understand it.

To an elderly person or couple it can actually be very scary. Strange kids coming round to your house with an excuse to do tricks isn't just a minor nuisance, it can be a big trouble. They don't want to be opening their doors to stangers all the time. The teenagers have no respect and can cause a lot of crime.

I know my parents even find it physically painful to be up and down out of chairs opening the front door all night. They're a bit deaf and worried about not hearing the doorbell and getting pranks and tricks. Mending minor pranks, like turning back over flower pots say, would be really arduos for them. I know that they are also worried about kids setting fire to the house with bangers and fireworks.

It's not just for one day either, the kids come round all the week before. It's not just neighbourhood kids either, most of them are from so far away that you won't see them again for a year until next halloween. The costumes are so poor that they give no pleasure to the people they're visiting.

Once each generation grows up with halloween it'll be different, but at the moment there is a generation who get nothing but trouble and really wish it had never caught on.

It's European businessmen that have figured "hey if we actually offer all this halloween stuff in our stores, I bet they'll buy it!". And they do.

I thought you people were smarter! I'm so disappointed.

Geez! Sounds like parents need to supervise their kids a little closer in your area! Didn't the Nanny based reality TV shows take hold in England?

Well yes we do have the nanny shows now. The youngsters are some of the best (or worse) villains on television. It's a bit too late for the current generation though as plenty of their parents just don't seem to care.

Blame Americans because your country has "evolved" Halloween into something it wasn't when you were a kid? Sounds to me like you need to blame your fellow countrymen, not Americans. Sales and Marketing isn't an American concept. It was around LOOOOOOONG before the Nina, Pinta and Santa Maria EVER sailed.

I don't hate Europeans, Canadians or any other country of people. I hate people who set their minds to a falsehood and lock them tight. Sometimes I wonder what this world would be like if we learned to distinguish individual traits and not categorize individuals who are unknown to us.

*sigh* This thread was poorly titled... though I know it was meant to be tongue in cheek.

I thought you people were smarter! I'm so disappointed.

We are, really. We don't fall for cheap sales tricks and we are never fooled into buying anything we dont really nee.. Ooooh looky shiny!!

(And I sit shamefully corrected on the sarcasm)

Blame Americans because your country has "evolved" Halloween into something it wasn't when you were a kid? Sounds to me like you need to blame your fellow countrymen, not Americans.

"you"? Surely you mean "he". He's about as representative of Europeans as random_texan_dimwit is for Americans.

Does Santa ride a sleigh pulled by herring in Norway?

Sounds to me like you need to blame your fellow countrymen, not Americans.

Just who's blaming Americans?

The guy cited in the article?

Those wacky Austrians

We are, really. We don't fall for cheap sales tricks and we are never fooled into buying anything we dont really nee.. Ooooh looky shiny!!

(And I sit shamefully corrected on the sarcasm)

Actually, I think the total amount of smarts on the world is more or less constant...
With the way the number of people on this planet has been mushrooming that is rather bad for the average intelligence of course :(


Eri (the very cynical)

Damn our evil crass commercial American souls! (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051026/ap_on_re_eu/spooked_by_halloween)

Hey, don't blame all europeans. There's only some 300 million of us and we too have our share of weirdos, headcases and raving lunatics.


Eri

"you"? Surely you mean "he". He's about as representative of Europeans as random_texan_dimwit is for Americans.Sorry Tinsi. This random_texan_dimwit meant her words for Anka. He was having a tough time understanding that the reason "Americans were upset" with the Mayor's words was because we were being blamed for a traditional celebration that began in Europe LONG before the United States were discovered and settled by Europeans.

Well yes we do have the nanny shows now. The youngsters are some of the best (or worse) villains on television. It's a bit too late for the current generation though as plenty of their parents just don't seem to care.

Actually, its usually their parents who are the villains! Strange how once you get the parents on the right path the kids follow along. Or at least, on the Reality TV shows they do. :p

Oh yes it's always the parent's fault, but the children are still real little monsters. I do really enjoy it when they get their comeuppance.

I wonder what the kids will feel like though in a dozen years time when they're grown up. It's bad enough having the parents bring out the old baby photos but imagine what it'll be like if they get out CDs of you acting like a spoilt brat on national TV. I suppose it won't be any worse than knowing your parents were on Jerry Springer though.

Now Anka, that behavior is unacceptable. If you do it again you will have to go sit on the Naughty Spot.

There was actually one family from my town on Supernanny one week. In La Jolla... I think it was the one where all the father wanted to do was spend time with his racing pigeons. I almost felt like going over there and shaking the parents.

Actually, I think the total amount of smarts on the world is more or less constant...

Someone told me today that "The mother of all idiots is ALWAYS pregnant", I thought that was both fairly cute and pretty accurate :)

Sorry Tinsi. This random_texan_dimwit meant her words for Anka. He was having a tough time understanding that the reason "Americans were upset" with the Mayor's words was because we were being blamed for a traditional celebration that began in Europe LONG before the United States were discovered and settled by Europeans.

Gah, I didn't know you were texan, I just was too lazy to dig up an actual name for a total whackjob, and used it as an example, and I simply remembered what you call a "guy from texas" faster than I remembered what you called a "guy from Ohio" or whatnot. It was in no way meant as a jab against you, and I'm sorry if you read it as such :/

At the other point - on a continent where "commercial" is a four-letter word, and "culture" is considered sacred, any attempt to commercialise anything even remotely cultural is going to get bad press. And if they can sell a couple of more papers by blaming someone who is likely to DEFEND commercialisation, then all the better.

That, of course, doesn't mean that the citizens of Europe (I know there's technically no such thing, but hey - I'm tired) buy into this any more than the average American will consider Fox News' political coverage "exemplary objective" or Michael Moore's movies "A treasure chest of factual information".

Does Santa ride a sleigh pulled by herring in Norway?

No, there's no reason to. We've got plenty of raindeer, and they're quite tasty :)

"guy from Ohio"

We call them ****ing morons, or sometimes, Aidon, for short. :p JUST KIDDING!

Those more enlightened amongst the masses call us gods, however.

Blame Americans because your country has "evolved" Halloween into something it wasn't when you were a kid? Sounds to me like you need to blame your fellow countrymen, not Americans. Sales and Marketing isn't an American concept. It was around LOOOOOOONG before the Nina, Pinta and Santa Maria EVER sailed.

I don't hate Europeans, Canadians or any other country of people. I hate people who set their minds to a falsehood and lock them tight. Sometimes I wonder what this world would be like if we learned to distinguish individual traits and not categorize individuals who are unknown to us.

*sigh* This thread was poorly titled... though I know it was meant to be tongue in cheek.

This really is a case of local politicians doing something to get noticed. Just like the Italian mayors who impose fines on women wearing a bikini off the beach and the council of the city that the Copacabana is in forbidding the sale of postcards of scantily dressed women on their beach. I am sure that five minutes worth of searching can find a dozen more similar cases of sillyness in any country.

Regarding Halloween. Even though the original holy day is possibly celtic in origin, the way it is celebrated today is uniquely american.

The (admittedly very small) problem is that there is this whole institution called Hollywood that keeps pumping out movies and tv series that promote American traditions, holydays and culture. This is perfectly fine for the USA but some purists in the rest of the world are a bit taken aback how much their own culture and traditions are overwhelmed by it. So they react, and frequently over-react.

The (admittedly very small) problem is that there is this whole institution called Hollywood that keeps pumping out movies and tv series that promote American traditions, holydays and culture. This is perfectly fine for the USA but some purists in the rest of the world are a bit taken aback how much their own culture and traditions are overwhelmed by it. So they react, and frequently over-react.

But if they're watching the movies our country produces, haven't they already absorbed some of our culture?

Yes. Your point?

Don't kvetch, I believe, is his point =P

And oh...those poor reindeer. Tinsi eats Rudolph!

And oh...those poor reindeer. Tinsi eats Rudolph!

As a steak, with potatoes and veggies and a nice gravy. YUM!

Rudolph the three course dinner.
Tasted very fine indeed.

See now you're getting it :)

Gah, I didn't know you were texan, I just was too lazy to dig up an actual name for a total whackjob, and used it as an example, and I simply remembered what you call a "guy from texas" faster than I remembered what you called a "guy from Ohio" or whatnot. It was in no way meant as a jab against you, and I'm sorry if you read it as such :/
S'ok Tinsi. You have been voted an "honorary Texan" now... so you're in it with me and you can't escape!! Muhahahaha!!!

Kickass!! Off I go to buy large quantities of strong hold hair spray and practice the new pronounciation of nuclear!

Kickass!! Off I go to buy large quantities of strong hold hair spray and practice the new pronounciation of nuclear!Omigod! Wrong century, Tinsi. *sigh* It's sooooo hard to train a new "Native Texan".

Omigod! Wrong century, Tinsi.

I dunno, she'd fit right in with my Dallas relatives. But only if she also wore enough makeup to create a mask, and fake nails so long they should be registered as weapons. nod.

/me takes notes
(I suspect y'all (<--see!!) will test me on this)

Oh, and you even put the punctuation in the right place in y'all. ;)

(Texan here too, though I don't speak with a drawl. :P)

TINSI BOB!! All GOOD Texans need a double name. (Glad I'm not a GOOD Texan)

Or ya think... Tinsi Dubya?? Interesting sound... Tinsi Dubya....

Tinsi Jo! Could be either male or female that way.

Tinsi Jo! Could be either male or female that way.Ah... but you see, "Bob" is non-gender as well. Roberta or Robert. It's "Bubba" that gets into the gender thing.

It's good that Tinsi is a willing convert. She has the "Y'all" down. Now all we need is for her to learn that "he don't" and "I ain't got no" are proper phrases.

I lived in Texas for 12 years. I never said "y'all" or "puttin' up" or "fixin' to." I'm a rebel! ;)

She has the "Y'all" down. Now all we need is for her to learn that "he don't" and "I ain't got no" are proper phrases.

I suppose phrases like "y'awn't'to" are probably "advanced Texan"?

I suppose phrases like "y'awn't'to" are probably "advanced Texan"?

I ain't got no (rawr!!) idea what that means!

I suppose phrases like "y'awn't'to" are probably "advanced Texan"?*nod*I lived in Texas for 12 years. I never said "y'all" or "puttin' up" or "fixin' to." I'm a rebel! :wink:Me too... I mean I have lived here more than half of my life and I don't even say "y'all". I still say "You guys" and it really tics off some females here.

I ain't got no (rawr!!) idea what that means!

y'awn't'to = contraction of "Do you want to". In linguistics, shifts in language like that are called "lazy tongue" (pronouncing primarily the vowels and leaving out those pesky little consonants)

I'm reading a book where the Yorkshire accent is spelled out and you get things like Nawt sort for "nothing of the sort".

Of course, there's the one I like best is: Dunno.