Interesting story about a historian who was arrested on charges of denying the holocaust, which apparently is against the law.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051117/ap_on_re_eu/austria_irving_arrested;_ylt=AlYZESxIenkFi26Gn29t7 Fys0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3ODdxdHBhBHNlYwM5NjQ-

Aye. Holocaust denial is a crime in Germany and Austria. I'm not sure about other countries.

Ernst Zundel, who lived in Canada for a long time, is facing charges in Germany.

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Incitement trial in Germany

Zundel’s long-expected trial in Germany began on November 8, 2005, but was almost immediately delayed after Judge Ulrich Meinerzhagen learned that the defense team included Horst Mahler, a disbarred right-wing German lawyer who had himself been convicted of inciting hatred against Jews in January 2005. Mahler had joined the defense team as the assistant of attorney Sylvia Stolz; Mahler and Stolz were both dismissed by Judge Meinerzhagen, who then adjourned the trial to give a new lawyer time to prepare a case in Zundel’s defense.

German authorities had charged Zundel with inciting racial hatred and defaming the memory of the dead in March 2005. Zundel had been returned to Germany after running afoul of immigration laws in the U.S. and Canada. He has had a long career promoting Holocaust denial and neo-Nazi ideology.

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Holocaust denial seems a very perculiar crime, but in this case the law seems to be working reasonably enough.

I can't say as I disagree with it. I think conspiracy theories and other stuff like that can be really dangerous. I just think it is getting close to having "thought crimes" though. And that kind of scares me.

Interseting... I think it's kind of neat. A law that prohibits people from denying history. I like that. That's a good way to prevent history from being forgotten or intentionally removed.

Interseting... I think it's kind of neat. A law that prohibits people from denying history.

A law that prohibits people denying Saddam Hussein's large stockpiles of WMD wouldn't be so neat, maybe.

Crap, don't give Cheney any ideas Anka! Quick! Delete your post! LOL!

A law that prohibits people denying Saddam Hussein's large stockpiles of WMD wouldn't be so neat, maybe.
Isn't either side of this story just a conspericy theory? I mean, seriously, there doesn't seem to be any hard facts on either side of the matter. If there was, where's the physical weapons?

I'm not saying either way. Too many documents getting removed/hidden from public eyes and altered to meet the desires of others to see the truth anymore. So I couldn't care less what the truth is now.

However, they can't make a law due to issues of that matter. With all the hidden/distroyed documents, they won't be able to prove either way. How do you back a law of this nature w/out proof? Sure hope US citizians aren't that stupid.

However, they can't make a law due to issues of that matter. With all the hidden/distroyed documents, they won't be able to prove either way. How do you back a law of this nature w/out proof?

Irvine will say the same about the holocaust, sadly.

Interseting... I think it's kind of neat. A law that prohibits people from denying history. I like that. That's a good way to prevent history from being forgotten or intentionally removed.Denial of the Holocaust is one thing. Denial of history in a more general sense is totally another. The Holocaust had a direct, devastating effect on a great number of countries, in fact... the world. It's an undeniable fact. Even today there are countless Holocaust survivors and families of survivors who recount story after story of the atrocities.

Outlawing the denial of history puts the power in the hands of those who write and edit history, or history in the hands of those in power. In fact, Irving is called an "historian" by the news report. ANYone can WRITE history. How do you verify which version is the accurate one? Many of todays authors take "poetic license" with histories that they scatter throughout their novels. And yeah... there's history all over the internet and in other countries, but there are a lot of mistruths in many as well. So, the law would then revert to the "official" history. Any time you put an "official" stamp on anything, someone has the authority to put it there.

I'm not saying that it WOULD happen... just that it could. I don't know what led to the passage of the Austrian law, but I am sure there was a perceived valid reason by the majority of the country. In fact, I would guess that an Austrian might believe that denial of something that had such a deep effect on his country is akin to treason. I wouldn't, however, recommend or endorse the passage of anything even remotely similar to a general "denial of history" anywhere.

I can't say as I disagree with it. I think conspiracy theories and other stuff like that can be really dangerous. I just think it is getting close to having "thought crimes" though. And that kind of scares me.
It scares me, too. I'm having a hard time seeing why it isn't a thought crime. It's clear that historians think he's an idiot -- why not let them counter his blather rather than jailing him. If he is committing violent acts or inciting others to do so then I can understand jailing him but if all he's doing is sharing his opinion (however worthless or corrupt), let his opinion be crushed by debate, don't get the law involved. Although Irving is a ****tard, his situation reminds me of Galileo's battles with the Church over science.

It's clear that historians think he's an idiot -- why not let them counter his blather rather than jailing him.

Irvine isn't a complete idiot. It's his intelligence and qualifications that make his revisionism dangerous. He has previously sued newspapers that accused him of being a Nazi sympathiser so it's not that simple to call him out. I'm glad that the Austrians are arresting influential people like him under this law rather than loose mouthed members of the general public.

It scares me, too. I'm having a hard time seeing why it isn't a thought crime. It's clear that historians think he's an idiot -- why not let them counter his blather rather than jailing him.

If this were in the US...I would rail against even the merest suggestion that it be held illegal to deny the holocaust.

But this was Austra. Germany and Austria both have a very real need to ensure their people can never forget the horror their nations unleashed on the world, and against the Jews in particular.

Not every people or nation is entitled to the same and equal rights in every situation. In the end...Germany and Austria both had good reason for making it illegal to be a Nazi, Neo-Nazi (etc.) and deny or applaud the Holocaust.

While freedom of expression is critically important, many countries have laws against hate crime. Holocaust deniars frequently preach anti-Semitism. Some are neo-nazis. I don't know much of Irving, but Zundel is vehemently and outspokenly anti-Semitic. That's why he got into difficulties in Canada. If he was a nut job braying his fantasies to the air, he would be ignored. Unfortunately his 'cause' attracts some support and this is what makes him dangerous.

When people read about neo-nazis in North America it's just another fringe group. When people read about neo-nazis in Germany, many people get nervous and concerned.

I think the German and Austrian Holocaust-denying laws are appropriate.

But this was Austra. Germany and Austria both have a very real need to ensure their people can never forget the horror their nations unleashed on the world, and against the Jews in particular.
I completely agree. I just don't agree that a law is the way to do it. I think that using logic and debate to counter their arguments will achieve more than using the law in an attempt to snuff them. Putting people in jail just makes martyrs out of them.

Not every people or nation is entitled to the same and equal rights in every situation.
From a moral standpoint, I think that everyone should have the right to believe what they want to believe. Being free in one's own mind is a pretty fundamental freedom.

The countries with laws against Holocaust denial are,

Austria
Belgium
Czech Republic
France
Germany
Israel
Lithuania
Poland
Slovakia
Switzerland

I completely agree. I just don't agree that a law is the way to do it. I think that using logic and debate to counter their arguments will achieve more than using the law in an attempt to snuff them. Putting people in jail just makes martyrs out of them.

logic and debate never overcome ignorance and xenophobia.


From a moral standpoint, I think that everyone should have the right to believe what they want to believe. Being free in one's own mind is a pretty fundamental freedom.


People in Germany and Austria are allowed to believe whatever they want. They just can't express certain beliefs...like the fact that their slaughter of 12 million people was a lie or worse a good thing ;)

After thinking about this for hmmm... a good 20 seconds, yesterday. I think although I think a penal code directed toward punishing people for what they believe is bad, I don't think making an exception every century or two for something extraordinary is going to set some sort of precedent, slippery slope sort of thing.

There are some things that should NEVER be forgotten, twisted, revised, etc and the lessons learned are worthy of creating a law to ensure that.

Now, I just wish we could unrevise and unforget some of the American history.

logic and debate never overcome ignorance and xenophobia.
Hehe, laws don't work particularly well either. They just drive it underground where it festers and becomes more zealous. Iraq is a perfect example of this.

People in Germany and Austria are allowed to believe whatever they want. They just can't express certain beliefs...like the fact that their slaughter of 12 million people was a lie or worse a good thing ;)
I prefer the idiot who gives tips their hand about their beliefs over the idiot who hides them and spreads them in secret. :)

There are some things that should NEVER be forgotten, twisted, revised, etc and the lessons learned are worthy of creating a law to ensure that.
A law would be a minor speed-bump to any political force capable of altering the mainstream understanding about what happened in the Holocaust.