View Full Forums : PoP release soon. Consensus on spell changes?


Role Meggido
10-14-2002, 11:57 AM
Our spell line has improved very positively since PoP spells were first released. I wanted to try and see if there was a general sense of what changes still needed to be made. I went through lucy and this forum trying to build up a list of what seemed to be the general opinions.

I really hope someone has the time to do a similar thread on PoP AA.

Healing:
Good -- Karana's Renewel and Nature's Infusion will continue the readjustment of our healing abilities started with TR. These changes have been a godsend and I think are near universally liked. The mana cost on KR is still a bit too high though. Percentage restriction and a cost 1.5x CH amounts to an unnecessary double penalty.

Bad -- Xanuusus' Blessing and Touch of Xanuusus are still in deep need of improvement. At their current mana cost of 800 and 400 respectively for a 20 instead of 15 hp per tick heal most druids have free, I think they will go widely unscribed and in the back of the book. Possible suggestions I saw:
-Removal and replacing with a heal over time spell
-Changing XB to being group Natures Recovery and Touch of Xanuusus to a 40 hp per tick heal along the lines of NR.
-Uppinging XB and ToX to 30 hp or more per tick.

Very bad -- Still no group heal spells. Still no group cure spells. No heal over time spell (though an improved XB or ToX might be this I guess). Group healing ability somewhere in the 50 - 70% ability of CLR seems to be regarded as needed. I agree strongly with this. Improved ability to cure should also be put in, even if it is just a single target unified cure.

Buffing:
Good -- Group SoE and single target of BotN stand out as

Bad:
No improvements to the ability of druids to buff MR, PR, DR. I think the suggestion of exchanging Circle of Summer and Circle of Winter for Talisman of Shadoo and Talisman of Jasinth at level 62 is good. Alternatively, the single resist group form's of buffs should go to all classes that had them pre kunark and Dru and Shm should swap their single buff Pr/Dr for Cr/Fr buffs at around 63 to 64. Same deal for Shm, Dru, and Enc.

Mask of the Forest should still be changed from infra to ultravision I think the best argument I heard was something like "we got ultravision with a wolf form in the low 50's so why are we now reduced to infravision at level 65." Personally, I'd like to see the mana regen go up to 5 - 6, but I think I'm pretty alone on that ;) .

Pretty bad:
Brackencoat (lucy.fnord.net/spell.html...urce=Test) (http://lucy.fnord.net/spell.html?id=3450&source=Test)) could really use a hp addition, especially compared to the new Wiz/Enc/Nec/Mag self buff (lucy.fnord.net/spell.html...urce=Test) (http://lucy.fnord.net/spell.html?id=3302&source=Test)) or perhaps more distantly to the new Rng self (lucy.fnord.net/spell.html...rce=Test), (http://lucy.fnord.net/spell.html?id=3039&source=Test),) still all blow BC away.

Still no group Shield of Bracken. Rather had that than group SoE. Sorry Tills :-p.

Suggestion:
Rangers :-p. Give druids one of their lower level attack buffs from around the 51 - 53 level. If only so some of us have a retort when rangers go off about how they are stupidly outdamaging us with AM.

Debuffs:
Good (I guess). Druids still seem to retain the position as single resist debufferes for cold and fire. I haven't been able to debuff cold before, so that'll be nice. I'll still get laughed at by my shaman and mage friends as being a joke debuffer, but that's ok. Oh, we can also debuff attack a little. Honestly, I have a hard time getting really enthused about a super debuff when we have pretty pronounced healing and damage abilities.

I'd suggest maybe a lure based ensnare and a lure based root (unless that's what Savage roots does). At least that way we can find out quickly the mob is immune to run speed changes :) jeje.

Damage:
[I tried writing this up but wasn't able to come across as concretely as I'd seen other folks. If someone can put something in here I'd be happy to put it in here. All I've been able to pick up is that the ratios seem to need improvement. Bigger numbers at the same ratio would also be good for focus and crits it seems.]

We seem to have been excluded from an improved AOE, which may or may not have been intentionally. I fear ze cleric AOE now hehe.

Additions or improvments:
In case there are any suggestions.

General complaint since I wrote this:
-Please remove the FIRE BEETLE EYE requirement. I h8 it so. In the vein of solidarity, please remove peridots for clerics while you're at it.
-Remove the necessity of sitting to swap out spells.

Skagitstone
10-14-2002, 12:14 PM
you do realize they are attempting to balance somewhat the post 60 game from the start and not simply give druids everything right?

edit gah how did i get logged in as this

-MoonDancer

MoonDancer
10-14-2002, 12:16 PM
ah better:)

-MoonDancer

Role Meggido
10-14-2002, 12:17 PM
Yes, I believe I realize what VI is trying to do. What do you see as "everything"?

MoonDancer
10-14-2002, 12:24 PM
well take your request for more RM, DR, and RP druids have never been the best at these ours are the FR and CR which we do get an upgrade to.

I also think KR is very in line with our healing as well as i forget the name of the quick heal we get but that is a superb upgrade.

As someone pointed out in anouther thread we really dont need a group heal spell or a HoT. As it stands now with TR i can replace a cleric anywhere in the game except a CH chain.

Brakencoat does not need HP added to it our coat lines have never had HP on them.

Edit

I do agree with you that XB does need some work a group NR would be appropiate. and ultravison should be added to mask of the forest
-MoonDancer

Seriena
10-14-2002, 12:31 PM
Healing - I agree with what you posted for the most part. The mana cost on KR is to high, doubt you'll find much dispute there. I would like to see the casting time in NI brought back down to CB level (it was for a couple days, then upped again by almost a second or so). PoP is more than likely going to involve fast casting heals and group heals so our 10s heal probably won't do us much good on raids.

I can live without a group heal as I see this as a cleric niche now. And sheesh, those new group heals clerics have are amazing.

Xan (regen) won't be used unless the hp over time is upped. They can change it or not, I really don't care as I'm sure it will be a dropped spell (like grop regrowth) and we won't be seeing it anytime soon. Free regrowth will always win out imo.

Buffing - disagree on anything good about our buff line. Unless they balance the priest hp buff line ups we'll be using it as much as PotG is used now (hardly ever). What should be done is make is so each priest has a worthwhile MGB. Shaman with focus line, druids with Glades line and clerics with Symbol line. To me that would be balanced.

I don't agree we need any upgrade to our resist buffs that aren't already planned. I would even say we don't even need a fr/cr upgrade from seasons. What would be nice is a curse resist type buff as I don't think anything like that exists. Whether or not it goes to druids /shrug

Mask - The mana regen should be upped a point since Rangers are getting MotH at 65.

Agree on Brackencoat - pretty sorry upgrade imo. It should be more along the line of Rangers/caster upgrades. On the other hand those classes really only have self only hp buffs where druids have both hp/ac and ac buffs so to me it's not a game breaking issue.

Atk buffs - could care less

Debuffs - happy with our cold and fire debuffs except for the high resist check on Ro's smoldering disjuction. I hope that our PoP lineup isn't the same or worse. If it is, I won't be using the spell - to much of a hassle for little benefit.

Snare/root lure - could care less. I hate when people ask for these spells.

AOE spells - disappointed in our lack of upgrade compared to clerics. I see no reason why druids or clerics should be better in the upheaval/earthquake line.


Cleric dot components - I'd rather leave it to clerics to work on getting their own spells adjusted

Tilien Venator
10-14-2002, 01:07 PM
At this point in time we only need a few minor changes and additions.

The new regens are ok, not really going to be used by anyone with a free Bp.

We need our nuke ratios upped a bit, see one of my last 20 posts for more into.
We need a group heal, 650ish at 61 and 1k or so at 64-65.

Other then that we're doing well spell wise.

With all the AE's PoP seems to have we need to be able to heal our groups better, a group heal will do that. Our nukes need to be a better upgrade then general spells we got 4-5 levels before. Drop the mana costs by 10 each and our spell ratios will be fine. Anything else spell wise is just icing. A group DS would be nice though. Not needed like a group heal or a nuke upgrade, but nice and not overpowering at all. We've always gotten group DS's after getting a new single.

As for our new aaps... Well, mostly they will depend on refresh times. 72 minutes and they will blow. No matter though, I still have useful arch skills to get... Sad that old expansion arch skills will be better then most PoP skills...

Role Meggido
10-14-2002, 01:16 PM
If you'll look at what I said about the resist changes, my suggestion was basically to just keep resists where they are. Druids would not become better pr, dr, mr buffers than their respective classes. These classes would not become better than dru. Everything would stay approximately constant to where it is now.

Pre kunark classes could single buff resists up by 40. This ability was shared among a wide number of classes. Gradually, we've had the introduction of group resists and circles. Druids can single group buff to 45 or (core competency) group buff to 55. With PoP core competent buffs are being increased to 75. This is similar for shm and enc.

My suggestion, which I think is still valid. Was to keep these resists spread out. As a classes specialty ability increases, the earlier versions should be spread out. Hence I think classes should get the older generation of buffs. Ie. Druids should get the old group resists for poison, disease, and magic. Shm should get fire, cold, magic etc etc, such that the relative specialty stays constant.

I see a question about whether dru and shm should exchange their core 55 buff, but other than that I definitely think this should happen.

L1ndara
10-14-2002, 01:22 PM
KR could stand a mana reduction, I'm not sure other healing changes are needed.

Xanuusuus' Blessing sucks, I'll very rarely cast it. 20/tick is 12k healed PER HOUR and only 3k more PER HOUR over the free BP. It has it's uses but if it drops off a mob I'm going to be wishing some other class' spell dropped instead.

Karana's Rage, our new quad nuke is still less efficient than the level 51 wizard quad (and much less than the 57) and is outdoor only *sigh*. Could use some definite improvement.

Our nukes didn't get much of a DPS upgrade, nor did they get much of an efficieny upgrade either. DPS I couldn't care much about, with focus and quick damage I can hit the agro limit in no time flat and not be able to nuke anyway. We could seriously use some efficiency boost though. Winter's Frost in particular as our uber end of the line nuke is pretty unspectacular, marginally more efficient than the 62 magician nuke.

Our debuffs could be cheaper, much cheaper. On a raid their cost is utterly meaningless, they could double them and it wouldn't matter, but for groups having to cast a debuff on the endless parade of mobs with our limited mana regen hoses our already crappy group effectiveness.

Fayne Dethe
10-14-2002, 02:24 PM
Healing: The druid direct healing upgrades are about what they should be except Karana's Remedy should only be 500 mana, 600 is too much with the lack of mod rods. The new regen spells are more or less a joke - high mana costs for only a 5 pt upgrade, this should be a minimum 10 pt regen upgrade considering almost every 55+ druid main has manaless regrowth of the grove.

Also, I think some form of group heal will be necessary in PoP just looking at all the new AOEs boss mobs will have and the new cleric/paladin group heals. The focus of the game might very well shift from CH to mainly group heals in PoP. Just look at the new cleric group heal - 2.5k heal for 1100 mana in 4.5 seconds with no recast time and cures both poison and disease counters which sounds ideal for boss mob AOEs (for instance I heard one boss does a damage AOE followed by a slow AOE). Of course with such expensive mana costs, group heals cant be kept up, but supposedly PoP boss fights will be short zerg fests of old (one reason why manaburn was nerfed to 1 minute apart).


Buffing: Only issues I have involve new damage shield and Mask of the Forest. Mask of the Forest is too small of upgrade, especially considering Rangers are getting a near identical spell. Some possible solutions: 1. Make it 5 or 6 mana regen, 2. Keep it at 4 mana regen but add in 150 mana, or 3. Keep it at 4 mana regen but add in 4 hitpoint regen. As for the new damage shield, our shield have always been 1 point behind mages so it should be increased to 44 since the mage shield was made 45.


Debuff: No real issues here as they just follow our old lines in addition to the cold debuff.


Damage: The two new nukes need mana adjustments as they arent enough of an upgrade over Moonfire/ancient nuke to warrant efficiency downgrades. I understand the nukes are not going to be made more efficient than the Ancient nuke, but both should beat out Moonfire's efficiency to a sufficient degree. Summers Flame is currently 1300 dam/370 mana which is 3.51 efficiency while Moonfire is 3.59 efficiency. Change the spell to 1300 damage for 350 mana for 3.71 efficiency and clear upgrade, and make Winter's Frost 1395 damage for 360 mana at 3.87 efficiency.

Delowen
10-14-2002, 02:50 PM
ad:
No improvements to the ability of druids to buff MR, PR, DR. I think the suggestion of exchanging Circle of Summer and Circle of Winter for Talisman of Shadoo and Talisman of Jasinth at level 62 is good. Alternatively, the single resist group form's of buffs should go to all classes that had them pre kunark and Dru and Shm should swap their single buff Pr/Dr for Cr/Fr buffs at around 63 to 64. Same deal for Shm, Dru, and Enc.

Druids are NOT a MR,PR,DR buffer that is just a fact, Shamans Buff Disease/Posion,Druids buff Cold/fire,Enchanters buff MR that is how it should be. Druids buff CR and FR the best (+72vs fr/cr), Shamans buff DR and PR the best (group) and Enchanters for MR. We dont need PR,MR,DR your getting greedy.

Pretty bad:
Brackencoat (lucy.fnord.net/spell.html...urce=Test) could really use a hp addition.

Brackencoat is a nice spell 49AC, 13pt DS i'm not going to complain about getting this. There is no need for an Addition of HP though it would be nice it probably wont happen. This is just an upgrade to our self coat line of spells none of them have HP no need to change this now.

The Ranger Self Buff is an upgrade to Warders Protection that is there spell we dont need a spell that does anything like WP, its only 125hp anyway thats not even 1 hit from the mobs I fight so no biggie.


Debuffs
Druids will be good debuffers in PoP I mean a debuff thatis n100atk that hurts and I will be using it a lot that is if it goes live.

Hand of Ro Level 61
2: Decrease Fire Resist by 72
3: Decrease AC by 15
4: Decrease ATK by 100
Mana: 165
Casting Time: 3.5<< Recast Time: 6<< Resist Adjust -200

Really is a nice upgrade from Ro's Smoldering Disjuction which is 250mana and only thing that it has that this doesnt is that it does 150dmg which I would rather it didnt have.(so I can cast it on perma-rooted mobs before fights, Mezed mobs ect.)

I do agree on MotF needing some upgrading around what you suggested.

To my knowledge only druids got an upgraded DS (40pt) and though group ones are nice I really dont cast them too often unless grouped with mainly tanks.

Xanuusus' Blessing and its group version are ok.
(shamans didnt get an upgrade to Regrowth to my knowledge so be happy that we did)
Regrowth
1: Increase Hitpoints by 15 per tick
Mana: 300

Regrowth of the Grove
15HP per tick Group 600mana

If you look from Regeneration to Regrowth the manacost has always gone up 100 mana for the single target versions and the group versions have always gone up 200mana from the lower versions. Though those druids that do have the right click BPs will most likly still use those but I dont have one and will cast this spell though the manacost is high(still would be nice if it was lowered.)

Atk buff- Could care less about getting rangers lower lvl versions and really dont care if rangers can out dmg us with AM3.

Damage spells-Ratios could be improved a bit they are really just small upgrades should be a little bigger than what they are say 1500dmg on our cold one.


Karana's Rage, our new quad nuke is still less efficient than the level 51 wizard quad (and much less than the 57) and is outdoor only *sigh*. Could use some definite improvement.


Karana's Rage is an upgrade to Fist of Karana Dont compare them to wizards because 99% of the time they will be less efficient than theres, wizards are Nukers thats how it is we are a mix of most everything (nuking,healing,buffing,debuffing ect.) Because we have all these abilities we arnt going to get the best of everything personally i'm content with Karana's Rage how it is.

Hobbo
10-14-2002, 06:52 PM
I must say I'm pretty happy with most of our PoP spells. For those of you asking for a group heal haven't you seen this AA ability? <a href=http://lucy.fnord.net/spell.html?id=3279&source=Test>Spirit of Wood</a>

There are still a couple of spells I feel I need to complain about though ;)

Touch/blessing of xanuusu: Agree what's been said here, these spells simply are too weak imo. The regen needs to be upped to at least 25 if not 30. Especially if we're moving back to much shorter fights the effect of 20/tick regen is nothing.

E'ci's frosty breath: Our best nuke is cold, our only rain spells are cold. Still when we finally get a cold debuff it only debuffs 55 when we can debuff fire 72+35=107, whats up with that? Needs to be upped to same as hand of ro 72 or give us a cold version of fury of ro. Wouldn't hurt if frosty breath was lure like hand of ro either ;)

Mask of the forest: Again too weak and too small upgrade for being one of our lvl 65 spells imo. Being the exact same spell as the 60 version except 1 more manaregen is hardly worth bothering with. It needs to do something more like HP or resists or at least change the infravision to ultravision.

Protection/Blessing of the Nine: The spell is great, only problem is it needs to be a viable and for most persons superior alternative to hand of virtue when combined with clerics kazad symbol. The BotN+symbol combo needs to give a little more noticeable HP benefit then 28, around 100 or so. The cleric symbol also needs to last longer than 63min, I see 0 logic behind that when aego/virtue lasts 2.5 hour.

vowelumos
10-14-2002, 07:56 PM
Spirit of the wood will be a nice addition , especially with a modest reuse timer, it does lose some usefullness if it is on a 72 minute timer, anyone have any idea on that?

Fayne Dethe
10-14-2002, 08:19 PM
Spirit of the Wood would be a nice group heal for druids, but I'd be very suprised if the re-use time was shorter than 72 minutes (at 72 minutes it will be yet another useless druid "class" skill). To be useful on raids, it needs to have a very short re-use time, but with a 0 mana cost I dont see that happening. What would be a fair re-use time, and should they just make the skill cost mana with say a 1 minute re-use time?

L1ndara
10-14-2002, 09:32 PM
E'ci's frosty breath: Our best nuke is cold, our only rain spells are cold. Still when we finally get a cold debuff it only debuffs 55 when we can debuff fire 72+35=107, whats up with that? Needs to be upped to same as hand of ro 72 or give us a cold version of fury of ro. Wouldn't hurt if frosty breath was lure like hand of ro either ;) p

Add on to that:
Malosinia
1: Decrease Fire Resist by 70
2: Decrease Cold Resist by 60
3: Decrease Magic Resist by 70
4: Decrease Poison Resist by 70

So the shaman/magician debuff is 10 lower in cold too. Whether VI has an unwritten rule that mobs will simply be more suceptible to cold or this is just some weird carryover I dunno, but cold will be somewhat behind magic and fire for being debuffed. Wizards won't even notice because their new cold draught is n50 resist.

Quelm
10-14-2002, 11:23 PM
I hope Spirit of Wood is on a 5-15 minute timer. At 1 minute, you'd be able to keep that up almost half the time on your party. If higher levels of the skill granted a shorter reuse timer, that'd be nice.

Lotusfly Stewnicely
10-14-2002, 11:31 PM
The druid new cold rain is -50 resist, too. ^_^

In terms of the cost of debuffs, it might be wise to wait and see the average size of the creatures that you'll be fighting in PoP.

Certainly, debuffing everything in Luclin, where it's efficient to kill a stream of level 46 creatures, would make it a pointless and huge drain on mana, so from that perspective I can understand your argument. However, you've not seen the kinds of things that you might want to exp upon in the new expansion, yet. ^_^


Toodlepip,

Rebecca


P.s. Group cure poison / disease / curse is an AA skill that you can buy, if you wish to do so.

Tilien Venator
10-15-2002, 12:32 AM
Spirit of the Wood seems to cost 5 points for rank 1. Making it a 30 point ability over all. Depending on recast, rank 1 might be decent, but the rest are going to suck. Looking at ours and the rest of the other classes aap's. Most seem to fall into that catagory. Rank 1 might be decent, but no one in their right mind will get any rank 2 class abilities until they've got nothing left to spend their points on.

MoonDancer
10-15-2002, 07:10 AM
How do you know the point cost for these skills will double as it goes up?

-MoonDancer

Bam102465
10-15-2002, 07:45 AM
Don't worry about the debuffs, they don't hit worth a damn on anything real high anyway without some form of MR debuff first which we don't have. The morons at VI strike again.

Role Meggido
10-15-2002, 08:22 AM
I don't want to have to pay for things that my class should have by default. This seems to be becoming a far more prevalent trend in EQ. AAXP seems to largely be an excuse to give players most anything, but to hide it behind a ton of exp.

It's a really minor point in the area of resists, but because it is minor I consider that all the more reason it should be done.

Tilien Venator
10-15-2002, 09:30 AM
Don't worry about the debuffs, they don't hit worth a damn on anything real high anyway without some form of MR debuff first which we don't have. The morons at VI strike again.

looking at lucy I see

E'ci's Frosty Breath Resist:Cold
Hand of Ro Resist: Fire
Ro's Illumination Resist: Fire
Ro's Smoldering Disjunction Resist: Fire
Fixation of Ro Resist: Fire
Ro's Fiery Sundering Resist: Fire

Disjunction sticks on pretty much ever major boss mob I've ever used it on. Might take a cast or 3, but I'll stick.

Balise
10-15-2002, 12:46 PM
I dont think the group cure or the spirit of wood abilities will scale up in needed ability points per level (ie 5/10/15). I think they will keep it at 5/5/5, because the ability does not scale like the alternate abilities that scale with each level. Spirit of wood is basically biggest improvement at the change of level 0 - 1, going from 1-2 or 2-3 is not as big of a change as 0-1, so I dont think the needed points will scale up either. Well at least I dont *think* they should anyways.

Littlun
10-17-2002, 11:26 PM
I haven't been around the game for a couple of weeks, but am generally excited about the new release.

I would like to disagree with people saying that "almost all 55+ main druids have a clicky rotg". I was lucky enough to buy an MQ, but I'd have to say that MOST of the druids I know don't have one, despite many MANY hours in Kael. Even in ToV/HoT leather BPs are hardly common loot. Maybe in uber guilds this is true but I don't believe that it is true for "most" 55+ druids.

That said since I DO have a clicky bp, I'd never bother with the 800 mana unless I was spending a LOT of time close to fm, which happens sometimes when things are going smoothly. It might also happen near the beginning of a night, or with a fresh KEI/KEI upgrade. Also if I'm the only druid I might /TGB it to the other group if it contains the MT.

Thanx,

Littlun.

Racmoor
10-18-2002, 04:13 AM
Balise,
You're incorrect in that assumption. Let's look at Mental Clarity.

MC1 - Cost = 2AA points - Benenfits = FT1
MC2 - Cost = 4AA points - Benenfits = FT1
MC3 - Cost = 6AA points - Benenfits = FT1

This is why I refuse to get MC2. Why should I pay more for the same thing I got with MC1?

Racmoor

L1ndara
10-18-2002, 10:11 AM
I dont think the group cure or the spirit of wood abilities will scale up in needed ability points per level (ie 5/10/15). I think they will keep it at 5/5/5, because the ability does not scale like the alternate abilities that scale with each level. Spirit of wood is basically biggest improvement at the change of level 0 - 1, going from 1-2 or 2-3 is not as big of a change as 0-1, so I dont think the needed points will scale up either. Well at least I dont *think* they should anyways.

You may be right, but is it even worth 5 points let alone 15? How long can this really be kept up? It smacks of power level tool to me. Enchanter runes, you slap this on and twink runs around shooting things with a bow for a point of damage to have the mob run up and *splat* on the damage shield. I simply cannot see a way they can make this spell both useful and balanced at the same time. I vote this ability most likely to suck hard or be nerfed hard and nothing in the middle.

You're incorrect in that assumption. Let's look at Mental Clarity.

MC1 - Cost = 2AA points - Benenfits = FT1
MC2 - Cost = 4AA points - Benenfits = FT1
MC3 - Cost = 6AA points - Benenfits = FT1

This is why I refuse to get MC2. Why should I pay more for the same thing I got with MC1?

Well, MC1 is simply a great deal relative to other things. If you're getting much less than 50 mana/tick MC3 > SCF3.

You should ask yourself why you should get anything as spectacularly bad as SCF1? 2 points for FT1 is far greater than 2 points for 0.7% more damage (2% to crit 33% more damage.)