View Full Forums : NYC's new Get Fit program


Stormhaven
12-20-2005, 09:39 AM
Time to <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/12/20/nyc.transit/index.html">walkies to work</a>

Cantatus
12-20-2005, 12:43 PM
Lol, nice title. ;)

Fyyr Lu'Storm
12-20-2005, 01:59 PM
Fire them.

And hire people who want to work.

Panamah
12-20-2005, 02:01 PM
I can't quite believe they're having a snit over having to pay a little of their health insurance costs and being asked to retire at 62 instead of 55. *sigh*

Aidon
12-20-2005, 02:04 PM
That and not getting a raise in the past three years.

This is why unions are a necessity. You have this city and state trying to make it illegal for workers to show solidarity and stand united to demand fair compensation. Attempting to force their workers to capitulation through force.

**** NY.

If you don't want the workers striking, pay them fairly.

Panamah
12-20-2005, 02:08 PM
Health Care costs have risen double digit for years on end now. Everyone else is having to shoulder some of the burden the employers had been carrying. I don't see why union labourers shouldn't have to also.

Aidon
12-20-2005, 02:20 PM
Why should they have to take a cut when their employer is running a billion dollar budget surplus?

Panamah
12-20-2005, 02:22 PM
Maybe because they're going to use that surplus to improve service?

Kryttos Arcadia
12-20-2005, 02:25 PM
Maybe because they're going to use that surplus to improve service?

Right.. more like improve the CEO's pension

Aidon
12-20-2005, 02:30 PM
Just because they work for the city doesn't make them surfs to the city.

They work their job. They earn their income. They pay their taxes.

Panamah
12-20-2005, 02:37 PM
Surfers in NY City?

For a more in-depth analysis try this article in CSMoniter.com (http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1221/p01s02-wmgn.html). The surplus was generated from selling assets, so it is most likely temporary.

I'm sure NYC transit isn't a privately run concern, so I don't think any management type is in for any windfalls.

Stormhaven
12-20-2005, 02:53 PM
Please get from facts before stepping on your soapbox, Aidon.

The billion dollar surplus is from real estate tax revenue and interest rate savings - both of which are non-recurring, so this is a one-time surplus, not something the MTA can count on occurring every year. While most people predict that the 2006 year will also result in a surplus, they're expecting a deficit of over a billion by 2009.

Not only that, but over $400 million of that billion dollar surplus is already earmarked to pay unfunded pension liabilities.

What the Union wants is ridiculous. They want retirement by 55, not only for current employees, but for future employees, a 20/50 pension, they want a 100% funded health plan (no co-pays whatsoever), 8% raise every year for the next least three years, and a scale back disciplinary actions against workers.

Cantatus
12-20-2005, 03:06 PM
Aren't union demands usually fairly "ridiculous" to start? Isn't it like negotiating a price on a car? You start with something a lot lower than you expect to end up with, so when you negotiate with the seller, you get something more along the lines of what you originally wanted.

Aidon
12-20-2005, 03:13 PM
Right, and what the MTA has offered is also ridiculous. That's why its called negotiations.

You don't go in asking for what you will accept, you go in asking for what you want.

BTW, that pay raise isn't that ridiculous. Starting pay is 35k a year...I can only imagine how much it must suck to try living in NYC on 35k a year. But you'd have them trying to live in arguably the most expensive metro area in America, making 35k a year, while having to pay for their health care?

The cost of housing in NY Metro area has risen 29% over the past three years (01-04), so no, I don't think asking for a 24% pay increase over three years is 'ridiculous'.

Panamah
12-20-2005, 03:16 PM
I suspect they've already been negotiating for quite awhile before they go into a strike.

Stormhaven
12-20-2005, 03:20 PM
Basic economics, you raise everyone's pay by 8%/yr, everyone's costs are just going to rise due to inflation. Starting pay of $35k/yr is for the guy who sits at the station emptying the trash cans or the guy who wears the neon orange vest and lets people know that the subway station is closed due to repairs. The guys who actually "drive" the subway trains get around $65k/yr and only work in two hour shifts (regularly). The union has its fair share of maintenance people who make well over $80k/yr, and that's not just electrical or engineering.

And we're not talking about "paying" for their health care, we're talking co-pay. You know, that $15 you pay whenever you go visit your doctor? Or the 30-40% of your prescription drug cost.

While the union might have had a few people on their side before, the strike has screwed them in the eyes of the public. School teachers, emergency workers, all manner of public workers in NYC have worked while their union contract was expired in the past few years, and none of them decided to strike and still came to an amicable settlement. Now the union is just costing the city an estimated $400 million per day, during the holiday season, no less.

Panamah
12-20-2005, 03:37 PM
I had a lot more sympathy for unions when they were representing workers who were getting royally shat upon by businesses. But nowadays Union workers are taken care of far, far better than the average run-of-the-mill worker. Retire at 55?!?! WTF! The rest of us go out and look for a better deal with another employer and let the free market determine wages and we deal with riskiness of an open labor market.

So near as I can see, they're getting incredible job security most of us could never dream of, with much better pay for unskilled jobs, very cushy health benefits most of us don't have in addition to fabulous early retirement with benefits that probably put mine to shame. No it is definitely time for management to push back at the unions, IMHO.

Anka
12-20-2005, 04:11 PM
It seems like there has been a total breakdown in between the management and unions. Even if the unions are making unreasonable demands it is still the paid job of the management to sort it all out without industrial action. I can't see how political posturing and a series of lawsuits is going to make the workers happy and co-operative.

A basic retirement age of 55 is ridiculous though. It should be going up at the moment, not down.

Fyyr Lu'Storm
12-20-2005, 04:28 PM
It seems like there has been a total breakdown in between the management and unions. Even if the unions are making unreasonable demands it is still the paid job of the management to sort it all out without industrial action. I can't see how political posturing and a series of lawsuits is going to make the workers happy and co-operative.

A basic retirement age of 55 is ridiculous though. It should be going up at the moment, not down.
It's not that hard to drive a bus. Hire replacements.
It's not that hard to take tolls at a bridge. Hire replacements.
It's not that hard to drive a subway train. You don't even really need people, computerize them.

If they don't want to work, they find another job.
I would drive a subway train for 65K, with bennies, AND a retirement at 65.
I make 10.50 an hour. No insurance, no bennies. And no company or government retirement at any age.
What's the hard part?

Stormhaven
12-20-2005, 05:14 PM
So, I got to Penn Station on time today (because the LIRR is not striking) - around 8am. My company's "contingency" plan sucks major a$$ so I end up actually arriving to work around 9am. Now, the shuttle that was supposed to take us back to Penn Station has been delayed from 4pm to 4:30 to 6pm.

On the plus side, I got to do some walking and found out that I work rather close to Les Halles (if you're a foodie, you'll understand w/out having to Google).

MadroneDorf
12-20-2005, 05:54 PM
striking is fine i dont really see why it is illegal, although personally i'd just fire them and hire new ones

Anka
12-20-2005, 07:01 PM
I would drive a subway train for 65K, with bennies, AND a retirement at 65.
I make 10.50 an hour. No insurance, no bennies. And no company or government retirement at any age.
What's the hard part?

They're probably hiring. Apply.

Train driving is actually quite a harrowing job. A lot of people choose to commit suicide in front of your train and it's not a pleasant sight.

Aidon
12-20-2005, 07:46 PM
Basic economics, you raise everyone's pay by 8%/yr, everyone's costs are just going to rise due to inflation. Starting pay of $35k/yr is for the guy who sits at the station emptying the trash cans or the guy who wears the neon orange vest and lets people know that the subway station is closed due to repairs. The guys who actually "drive" the subway trains get around $65k/yr and only work in two hour shifts (regularly). The union has its fair share of maintenance people who make well over $80k/yr, and that's not just electrical or engineering.


The average wage for the union is 55k/yr. That's not alot of money in NYC. The median home value in NY metro area in 2004 was 355k. Thats insanity.

And we're not talking about "paying" for their health care, we're talking co-pay. You know, that $15 you pay whenever you go visit your doctor? Or the 30-40% of your prescription drug cost.

No, its not just a co-pay, but a percentage of the premium, which the city wants them to start paying.

Aidon
12-20-2005, 07:50 PM
It's not that hard to drive a bus. Hire replacements.
It's not that hard to take tolls at a bridge. Hire replacements.
It's not that hard to drive a subway train. You don't even really need people, computerize them.

If they don't want to work, they find another job.
I would drive a subway train for 65K, with bennies, AND a retirement at 65.
I make 10.50 an hour. No insurance, no bennies. And no company or government retirement at any age.
What's the hard part?

Ah the typical 'My life isn't as good as I like, so **** everyone else' thought process of conservatives and 'libertarians'.

I don't make alot of money either...I work in an industry that has no unions, to speak of. I don't begrudge those who have the benefit of a union and the will to stand against the abuses of their employers.

I would be interested in how much the directors of the MTA make per year. I know they aren't elected...and yet the Mayor says he has no oversight over them. Who runs the MTA? How much are they making?

Fyyr Lu'Storm
12-20-2005, 07:53 PM
Dude, the real estate value in NYC precludes most people from living there.

That is why those on strike even have a job. To move people from Jersey into the city.

Fyyr Lu'Storm
12-20-2005, 08:02 PM
Ah the typical 'My life isn't as good as I like, so **** everyone else' thought process of conservatives and 'libertarians'.
There is nothing ideological about what I said. It just is reality. There are plenty of people who would be happy with that job. Fire the strikers and hire those who are like me and would like the job. No Dogma. That is not conservatism or libertarianism, it just makes sense.

I don't make alot of money either...I work in an industry that has no unions, to speak of. I don't begrudge those who have the benefit of a union and the will to stand against the abuses of their employers.
I don't begrudge unions either, I just acknowledge that being a consumer myself, the cost of labor is the largest portion of what I consume. Unions make more money, means I need to spend more money on the same crap. Unions are not some noble institutions of rightness, they are just people trying to make more doing the same work.

I would be interested in how much the directors of the MTA make per year. I know they aren't elected...and yet the Mayor says he has no oversight over them. Who runs the MTA? How much are they making?
They probably make a little more than most cities managers. I would think that they might be in the 150K range or so. I would be interested to to find out what they actually make, too.


I have no experience with NYC myself. But SF has BART, buses, and tolls. The tolls into SF have multiplied by over 500 percent in the last few years. The bridges were already bought and paid for, that is pure profit. The increases followed directly the transit system strike they had a few years ago.

Fyyr Lu'Storm
12-20-2005, 09:18 PM
I was high on my estimation of what MTA managers make.

http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/employment/050153-050154.htm

61-76K per year for that one.

From
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/employment/jobs.htm

Plenty of other management positions and salary ranges.


http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/employment/050175.htm
Director of Real Estate position is open,,,95-120K per year.

I would have thought that the PeopleSoft Administrators would have made a sh1tload more than they are advertizing there.

Stormhaven
12-20-2005, 09:31 PM
There's plenty of reason why people make money at real jobs and then retire to a government job. Your argument about housing doesn't hold water, Aidon, because quite frankly, people who make $250k/yr can't afford a house in NYC/LI. That's why most of them live in Jersey or (gasp) get a roomie.

Aidon
12-20-2005, 11:26 PM
Dude, the real estate value in NYC precludes most people from living there.

That is why those on strike even have a job. To move people from Jersey into the city.

That median value is for metro area.

oddjob1244
12-20-2005, 11:35 PM
striking is fine i dont really see why it is illegal, although personally i'd just fire them and hire new ones

Hehe, hiring 30,000 new people and getting them ready to work would be a massive undertaking.

Stormhaven
12-21-2005, 10:17 AM
<b>Stormy's Commute, Day Two:</b>

Dear diary,
So, my company's "bus contingency" was "a$$" (putting it politely) so my co-workers who took the PATH (Port Authority Trans Hudson) in said it was a much easier ride. So the PATH has a temp route set up to go from 33rd street (Penn Station - where I get in) to the World Trade Center (close to where I normally get off +/- half a mile). So today I decide to go that route.

Well, there was a line to get out of Penn Station, so I wasted ten or fifteen minutes there, and as per my normal Midtown lack of direction sense, I got lost for at least 20min looking for the freakin' PATH terminal. When I finally found it, I got told by the police that this entryway was closed and I should go to "That one" *(points across the street). I go to "That one" about two more times before I find an entry that isn't closed - and since everyone else went to "That one," I got to wait in line for another fifteen minutes.

When I finally get to the tracks ("Track 3 for WTC bound trains"), the last one just left, another 7 minute wait, and we all cram into the train like sardines.

I got to go to New Jersey for the first time today.

Well... not really "Go," the PATH train goes to the WTC by way of Jersey first, so there were a couple stops in Jersey before we got back on Manhattan soil.

I got to see the WTC for the first time today. It is a very big hole. You have no idea how big a hole could be until you see this hole. Imagine buildings the size of a large Sams or Costco, stack them in a cube formation 2x2x2, and you'll get a roundabout idea of how big the hole is.

From the WTC it's a pretty generic walk to work, which is where I arrive, about 15-20min later.

Commute started: 7:05am (LIRR to Penn)
Commute ended: 9:30am (arrived at One New York Plaza)

Stormhaven
12-21-2005, 07:12 PM
<b>Day two, Addendum:</b>

Dear Diary,

I left work at 3:50pm and arrive home around 6:45.
Came really close to telling my boss (who takes a private water taxi and does not get impacted by the strike at all) to shove it when he was talking about other route alternatives.

Really came close to killing several commuters too.

Mental Note: Find good attorney for possible "Justifiable homicide" case.

Stormhaven
12-22-2005, 11:08 AM
<b>Day three</b>:
I'm ready to negotiate a way to allow the entire union to take a paid vacation on Ryker's Island.

Seems I'm not the <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/12/22/nyc.transit/index.html">only one</a>.

Panamah
12-22-2005, 11:43 AM
Looks like things are going to get back to normal soon. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20051222/ts_alt_afp/ustransportstrike_051222155311;_ylt=AvP.GB9A2cg82l B5P9HLaF6s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MjBwMWtkBHNlYwM3MTg-)

Stormhaven
12-22-2005, 11:48 AM
Sort of.
<i>If the executive board accepts the recommendation, the union would get back to work, but the timetable for getting public transportation back online was unclear.</i>

Aidon
12-22-2005, 11:54 AM
<b>Day three</b>:
I'm ready to negotiate a way to allow the entire union to take a paid vacation on Ryker's Island.

Seems I'm not the <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/12/22/nyc.transit/index.html">only one</a>.

It should not be legal to outlaw strikes. It is the only real bargaining chip unions have.

Obviously these people are of great import to the city...a virtual necessity.

How come Capitalists are all for charging what the market will bear...except to the workers?

The TWU Local 100 are not the personal servants of the city. They are workers, like any other. A city and state cannot be permitted to simply make it illegal for its workers to strike, thus giving the city the upper hand in all negotiations forever.

Stormhaven
12-22-2005, 12:36 PM
All I can say to you, Aidon, is sucks to be them.
I hope they get half of what they're asking, then get all the fines and losses of the city dropped on their heads to bring them into the red, making their new contract worth less than what they started with.

Notice that the first thing that the Union leaders did when the judge passed down the contempt ruling was jump off the strike bandwagon and suddenly start saying, "You should all go back to work, I have nothing to do with the strike anymore, but hey, I still support you!"

All their noble facades are just that - facades. They aren't for the little guy, they aren't trying to make sure that the underdog gets a fair share. They're screwing the little guy. There are so many mom & pop stores around downtown Manhattan that are closed right now because they can't get their workers in. Meanwhile the big businesses and city services march on because they can afford to offer contingency shuttles, or just plain say, "You have to come in."

And like I said previously, <b>several</b> of NYC's other city workers, including Police, Fire and Educational have <b>successfully</b> bargained out new labor contracts while their current contracts were expired.

I'll agree with the New York Post on this one, "You rats!"

Aidon
12-22-2005, 12:54 PM
Ah, so they should work for insufficient compensation to make your life easier...

If they're making such a great living, why aren't you driving a subway train? Oh, because the job sucks and doesn't pay well ;).

Stormhaven
12-22-2005, 12:58 PM
Your use of faulty logic is amazing, and you believe yourself too.

Aidon
12-22-2005, 01:47 PM
It seems to me that if the city looses 100 million a day when they aren't working...they deserve to be making far more money than they are.

I don't see how that's faulty logic.

The city has resorted to conduct which would be illegal for any non-governmental agency...it seems obvious that the city needs these workers working. So pay them.

Thicket Tundrabog
12-22-2005, 02:06 PM
Labor law and legislation usually define what is a legal strike and what isn't. I don't know about New York, but a 'wildcat' strike in Canada is illegal. For a legal strike, there is a process that requires certain negotiation steps, sometimes followed by mediation. In the end, the union is required to give written strike notice (typically 24 - 48 hours). This then become a legal strike.

If it can be shown that union leaders were involved in organizing a wildcat strike, they may personally be faced with criminal charges.

A good approach for union leaders to take in a wildcat strike goes something like this. "While we were not aware that this action would be taken at this time, we are not surprised that our members took action on their own. Our membership is angry and frustrated at the lack of progress in negotiations etc. etc. ".

When the public is inconvenienced, and the strike is illegal, unions find scant sympathy. This changes if the strike is legal.

Aidon
12-22-2005, 02:35 PM
Except the State of New York, in its infinite Fuedalism, has made any strike illegal by state or city employees.

Rahjeir
12-22-2005, 08:12 PM
Except the State of New York, in its infinite Fuedalism, has made any strike illegal by state or city employees.

It's also against the law to fire workers if they strike......Very same freaking law!


From yesterdays daily news

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/special/story/376715p-320036c.html

I believe striking was uncalled for. In the end, they still don't have a contract. Just fines aginst them and hurting everyone in NYC. Good job!