A few words,

I am still waiting on a reply to a post I made on The Steel Warrior forums reguarding the formula as they have it used to calucate the working mitigation AC used in creating a mobs attack rating.

This is based on a single parse of 30 minutes, 1800 or swings for the base numbers. I did not run a subsquent parse afterward with the debuffs running to verify. Thus, this is theory, not fact.

The Formulas used are from The Steel Warrior, they are not the exact code Sony uses, but it is close.

Now, I after reviewing this I have a few theories.

1: Each Priest Class has some method of reducing incoming damage to a player. Clerics use the Vie line of spells. Shamans use Slow (Which reduce the amount of damage the player takes, and the rate they take it - respectfully). I believe Druids use thier Attack debuffs to directly reduce the amount hit for.

I ran the parse I am basing this off on our favorite Froglok from Kunark, Ulump.

Since I do not have the exact Mitigation AC formala, the Mitigation value I used for myself is equal to my dispalyed Armor Class - My Collective Armor Class from Armor.

For the sake of this post, the displayed value is appox 1664. The Direct item Value is 693. The value I used is thus: 971. I do not think this is all that far off from the results I will show you.

First off, Ulump has 3 values:
Max hit of 222
Minimum hit of 80
Modal (average) hit of 133

Thus we can calucate the Damage Interval (DI) as Max Hit - Min Hit (222-80) / 19 for a total of: 7.5

From this number, we can figure out the Damage Base as Min Hit - DI (80-7.5) for a DB Value of 72.5

From these, we can Calucate the range of hits Ulump can perform as:
DB+(X*DI). X is equal to A number from 1-20.

This means that Ulump will hit against that AC Value with the following 20 hits:

80 87 95 102 110 117 125 132 140 147 155 162 170 177 185 192 200 207 215 222

All attacks will be one of those 20 values, or value +-1 due to rounding.

Knowing this, we can calucate Ulumps Attack Score.

Attack = Mitigation AC / (1 - (Modal Hit - DB) / (20 X DI))

Thus:

Ulump's Attack is:

1631 = 971 / (1-(133-72.5) / (20 X 7.5)

Now, based on this Attack Rating, we can figure out what his average hit is with the following:

Z = 1-(Attack / AC)
ZD = Z * 20 (for the range of actual damage)
Modal Hit is thus: DB + (ZD x DI)

So

.40 = 1 - (1631 / 971)
8 = .40 * 20
Modal hit is thus 133

Now, we can modify that attack rating by 190 from our debuffs making it 1441.

Adjusting the attack this way makes Z = 0.33 and ZD 6.52 This would lower the average hit from 133 to 121, a differance of appox 12 (rounded) per hit.

Now I realize this is prety math complicated, and 12 doesn't seem like alot.
Say however, the fight took 5 minutes, which is roughly 300 swings. Lets assume, that Only half of those hits actually land.

So we take 150 hits x 12 damage reduction per hit, resulting in 1800 damage avoided due to the reduced attack score.

Now, say we make up some numbers, say we are doing, one of the Ikkinz Minibosses.

Fake Number Values:

Ikkinz Priest
Max Hit 1900
Min Hit 700
Modal Hit against 971 AC: 1050

This results in the attack rating of 1443. The DI Value is 63.2 and the DB is 636.8

So we debuff the Priest with Hand of Ro and Sun's Corana.

New Attack Rating: 1252

Differance per hit appox 129.

Now lets say the Priest swings 4 times every 2 seconds, resulting in 120 possiable swings. Lets say 75 percent of those hit.

So 90 Hits, at 129 at appox 129 reduction is roughly 11,610 Damage avoided.

The factor that determines how large of a differance the attack debuffs make is the Damage Interval (DI). Mobs with Larger DI scores suffer larger reductions of possiable damage once their Attack Rating is adjusted.

I am currently waiting on some parse data to come back, but once I have it, I should be able to more fully support this theory.

-Fenier

http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?t=13652

TSW Discussion I started as a cross referance post.

I am also trying to figure out Weapon Damage Formula, I think I have it and from this we could infer how much more damage could be done by lowering the mobs armor class.

-Fenier

I havent run any tests or parses, but stacking hand of ro/sun's corona makes a HUGE difference on exp mobs.
I keep them both memmed when duoing with my BL. The difference is VERY noticable, on any DB mob from GoD expansion on. PoP I cant really tell much difference for some reason. After stacking both, when hit Gogbuk is only hit for he mob's minimum damage per hit.
If you want to really see the effect and quickly, head to RSS...I can duo cold side with ease, whereas on Pyrilen side Gogbuk gets raped.

I keep them both memmed when duoing with my BL. The difference is VERY noticable, on any DB mob from GoD expansion on. PoP I cant really tell much difference for some reason. After stacking both, when hit Gogbuk is only hit for he mob's minimum damage per hit. .

This is becuase the mobs hit range is determined by 20 * DI. The Lower the DI value the smaller the range so the less differance you will notice from attack reduction.

Mobs with a larger DI score you will notice double or tripple digit differancal once its attack score is lowered by 190.

In the above example, I showed Ulump's entire hit range.

In Theroy, is we debuffed him the common X *DI value changed from 8 (average hit 133) to 7*DI (average hit 121).

It would likewise stand to reason, that reduction in Attack Scores move the average hit to the left of the range, where the numbers are typically lower.

Likewise, if you where to increase the attack, the numbers move to the right, so the mob is hitting higher more often verus your mitigation AC.

Likewise, you can use this to tell you the value of your current Mitgation AC, becuase the attack number can only be decreased so far (or on the flip side, the AC can only be increased so far before all hits are on the mimum series of numbers). Thus you can tell how much AC you would have to gain (mitigation AC, not displayed) to make a noticable differance while tanking a perticluar creature.

In my case, even with 1600 Unbuffed AC (which I am figuring as 971 Mitigation and this may be high) I can still raise my AC to move then umber futher to the left. However the jumps from one interger value to multplie against DI to accomplish this raise dramatically the more you go left.

-Fenier

In my case, even with 1600 Unbuffed AC (which I am figuring as 971 Mitigation and this may be high) I can still raise my AC to move then umber futher to the left. However the jumps from one interger value to multplie against DI to accomplish this raise dramatically the more you go left.

Trying to understand this. Dimenisioning return on AC the higher it gets compared to the mobs attack rating?

Mob ATK of 2000.
AC increasing from 2100-2200 is a bigger help than 3000-3100??
*Just made up these numbers*

We're debating on TSW how to directly factor the attack adjustment.

Orignally I had the spreadsheet adjusting the attack and calucating the new modal hit against the Mitigation AC I used.

However, the other theory is that the Attack, while being adjusted techinally may not be calucated that way for damage.

The second theory, instead, modifies the Mitigation AC by 190 which is not subject to deminashing returns becuase the attack debuff existed before deminashing returns.

I am still working on getting more parse data.

What I have so far is this parse verus a Razorfiend in Valor. I tanked it for appox 200 hits without any attack debuffs with my base mitigation AC (no ac buffs).

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/Fenier/regular.gif

As you can see here, the Modal hit is 108 over those 200 hits.

The hit range is fairly consisant with min and max being most common.

Now, we take another 2 hits with Hand of Ro and Sun's Corana Running and we get:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/Fenier/debuff.gif


This is another 200 hit parse on the same exact mob.

We see here the Modal hit is also 108, but the range is heavily stack to the left of the chart, as the mob is hitting for less damage. Mitigation AC is the same.

I am not exactly sure how to Quantify this, as one single trash mob is not enough to form concrete conclusions, but as we cn see from the above charts, it would seem that the reduction in attack moves the normal hit a decent amount to the left.

Now, I am trying to obtain a parse file in which the Modal value is not also the minimum value.

Will keep the board updated as I work through this.

-Fenier

I will be posting more Parses of before or after once I finish adjusting the images. Major thanks to Sabreyn for doign the chart conversions.

However, using Parse Data I have taken while tanking mobs in Valor, Water and Walls of Slaughter, there is a trend between all 3 zones.

When debuffed, based on the parses I have, the mob hits for the minimum value around 20 percent more often.

In the Razorfiend Charts above, this movement of the incoming damage changed the Average Hit of the Razorfiend on me from 255.3 to 198.4

-Fenier

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/Fenier/waterreg-1.gif


Then After Debuffing:



http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/Fenier/waterdebuf.gif

Now, look at this Mob from WoS:

Normal:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/Fenier/wosreg.gif

Debuffed:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/Fenier/wosdebuf.gif

As you can see, in each case, the hit range shifts decently to the left.

In each case, the minimum Value was hit 20+ percent more often.

Now, we can modify that attack rating by 190 from our debuffs making it 1441.

Not trying to be a smartass - isn't the total attack debuff (assuming Hand of Ro & Sun's Corona) 205?

Also, just to clarify, Modal isn't "average" but most frequent. You've used it in the right context, and your analysis is quite correct, just described it differently.

My comment on attack debuffs:

Personally, I love them, and always use them. I have read analysis in the past that suggests they are not always efficient for the following reasons:

Low DI value on some mobs. Makes sense - no significant change to the value of the modal (or average, for that matter) hit means you get no real return for casting your debuffs on low DI mobs.

Fast kill rate - Again, makes sense. If you kill a mob quickly (high DPS exp group etc), your debuffs don't start impacting the output until the mob is at least say 25% dead (6 seconds at best to cast HoR & SC). Then they only effect the mob for another 20 odd seconds. Over this 20 seconds, it's likely that the mob DPS output will be less than what you could heal with one cast of your preferred heal (SI or Chlorotrope).

For a similar mana cost (assuming you're alt specced - a little more otherwise) you can just throw a heal at your tank for the same effect, and free up two spell slots :) An Evoc druid could throw a nuke instead, and get the mob dead that much sooner... same logic applies.


On Raid bosses, of course, these debuffs are gold. What?! A raid role for druids?! Nooooooooooo!


Final note: Awesome effort Fenier, i'd like to see parses against say a stoneroot werewolf or a deep orc lego... of course these would tear you up pretty quickly, but if you'd like a healer to help get some parses by keeping you alive while they hit you, sing out :)

Not trying to be a smartass - isn't the total attack debuff (assuming Hand of Ro & Sun's Corona) 205?

Hand of Ro:
10: Decrease ATK by 100

Sun's Corona
5: Decrease ATK by 90

100 + 90 = 190.

-Fenier

Sun's Corona
5: Decrease ATK by 90

-Fenier


There's the difference - I used the TDG info for Corona, which reads:


Spell Name: Sun's Corona

Slot Description:
1: Decrease AC by 19
5: Decrease ATK by 105

Shoulda checked Lucy :shuffle:

Its ok, I forgive you /hug

I am attempting to re-write this, with new conclusions and theories, in a more reader friendly manner, as the Druids on my server have so kindly pointed out: "All the math hurts my brain"

I would like to start with Thanking the people who worked out the formula's on The Steel Warrior (http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/index.php) in reguards to how a Mobs hit works. In perticular from there I would like to thank Vikken from TSW for helping me understand exactly what I was looking at. I would also like to thank Sabreyn for not only listening to me complain as I worked on this, but in converting a few of the charts I sent her.

Understanding how a Mob Hits:

A Mob hits for 20 specfic values, reguardless of class. This can be figured out with the following Formula:

The damage a mob does on a standard hit is DB + x*DI, where DB stands for Damage Bonus, DI stands for Damage Interval, and x is an integer between 1 and 20 (inclusive).
DI = (max hit) - (min hit) / 19
DB = (min hit) - DI
Warriors are hit a slight bit differantly, but not enough to matter to this discussion. It is also important to note the following:

1: Kick and Bash are not calucated by the above formula.

2: This post talks only about hits. By hits I am refering to the main form of the mobs attack, Be it Hits, Claws, Tears whatever.

3: Mobs wielding weapons can have differant hit values per hand. This is due to a Mob Wielding one weapon having a differant DB/DI value then the offhand. This could also be due to each weapon having a differant DB/DI value (example is a mob with sword in mainhand and club in offhand).

4: A few effects will alter how these hits appear to the player.

A: Any Mitigation Buff (such as Cleric Vie Line), or Any hit which finishes a Rune off.
B: Any time the person being hit is using a disc or skill that mitigates incoming melee damage. (Defensive, Oaken Guard, Knight Discs)

Because of this, no discs or Vie/Rune spells where used when performing these examples.

The examples used in this post use only the most common form of attack of the same type. Kicks and Bashes are excluded. None of the mobs where duel-wielding.

Understanding Armor Class:

Your displayed Armor class is not how the game determines what you are hit for. The Armor Class you see in game, is a combitation of your Mitigation AC and your Avoidance AC. The value the game uses to determine what you are hit for (note: Not when you are hit) is known as Mitigation Armor Class.

Mitigation Armor Class is as far as I know, an unknown formula to the player base. However, you can get a rough appoximation of your Mitigation AC by adding up all your Raw AC from items then directly adding any Buffed AC you get (From Steeloak, Conviction, etc). For the examples which follow, my mitigation AC is somewhere around 700-800.

When the mob hits you, your Mitigation AC determines which of the 20 values to assign to you. The Higher your mitigation AC is, the more you should be hit for the lower possiable values.

Vikken explains this as:

Mobs hit for 20 different values regardless of AC. Damage reduction from mitigation happens because they hit for a smaller value more often than a higher one. Beside certain class and a shielding effects, they will hit for the same 20 values no matter what gear the player wears. Naked or in full plate, they will hit for the same 20 values of damage.
Understanding Attack Reduction:

Druids get a line of spells starting at level 44 which directly reduces the mobs attack score. The current best amount Druids can debuff attack is 190 (Hand of Ro, Sun's Corana).

It is important to understand how this works. We have determined prior that the mob uses its Attack Score verus your Mitigation AC. Thus if you debuff an attack score you are adjusing where on the 20 value range (determined by the DI/DB Formula) the mob is apt to hit.

Important Points:
The Mob can still hit for all 20 values
The Mob is more apt to hit for the lesser of the 20 values
You are not changing the amount hit for, the mob is hitting for the same 20 values.
You are changing which of those 20 values is more apt to be hit.
You are decreasing the chance a mob can score a Max Hit.

The current theory, based on posts from TSW and supported with my examples, is that the attack reduction is equivlant to adding 190 (HoR&SC) raw Mitigation AC to your mitigation score. This 190 is not subject to class softcaps, or overcap returns.


When you debuff a mob ATK by X, it is the same as buffing the player's AC by Y
If this is true, and it would appear from my parse work it is, you can actually shift the Modal (most common) hit the mob does to a lower value with a large enough jump in Mitigation AC until the Modal is the minimum hit.

Even if the Modal hit is the minimum hit, as in these examples, you can see what the attack reduction does to the rest of the hit range. Max hits drop off drastically with that large of an attack reduction as shown below.

Example 1:

Zone: Plane of Valor
Mob: A Razorfiend Subduer
DB Value: 88.2
DI Value: 19.8
Estimated Attack Rating: 737

This parse is normal (no debuffs)

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/Fenier/regular.gif

We can see here that the min and max hits of the 20 value range are the most commonly hit. The averge hit (not modal) for this parse is 255.3

Now, we apply the 190 Attack Reduction and we get the following:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/Fenier/debuff.gif


We see from this that the mobs more apt to hit for values under 306, with a massive increase to the minimum value. In this case, the attack reduction made hits to the minimum value 20 percent more common. The average hit with the attack debuffs running was 198.4 Attack Reduction shifted the hit range to the left enough to cause a 57 damage drop in average hit.


Example 2:

Zone: Plane of Water
Mob: Triolun Water Guardian
DB Value: 112.2
DI Value: 25.8
Estimated Attack Rating: 737

This mob's attack calucates the same, but as show above the DI value is slightly higher, because of this we will notice some more drastic effects.

Normal (No Debuffs):

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/Fenier/waterreg-1.gif

Again, we can see here a fairly wide range of hits, with the most common being min and max. The Average hit for this parse was 332.7

Now, lets look at the mob Debuffed.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/Fenier/waterdebuf.gif

This is roughly the same number of swings. We notice that while debuffed the mob hits for the minimum value far more then any other. The average hit from this parse is 256.55 The attack debuffs adjusted the Average Hit a total of 76.15 points of damage. The Minimum value in this case was hit about 25 percent more often while the mob was debuffed.

Example 3:

Zone: Walls of Slaughter
Mob: Raging Chimera
DB Value: 107.4
DI Value: 23.6
Estimated Attack Rating: 737

Normal:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/Fenier/wosreg.gif

Again, here we see the Min and Max hits being the most common of the 20 values. The Average hit for this parse is 304.98

Now, we look at the Debuffed Mob:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/Fenier/wosdebuf.gif

We see here the same thing in the other two examples. The hit values on the left become far more common with the attack debuff. Max Hit Values drop drastically. The average hit gets lowered. In this example the Average hit is 224.92 This is a 80.6 drop from the first parse.

Conclusions:

1: Attack Reduction Lowers the chance of a player being hit for maximum damage [known as DB+(20*DI)].
2: Attack Reduction makes the odds of a mob hitting the lower of its possiable hit values more common.
3: Even if a Mob's Modal hit, is its minimum hit, an attack reduction will shift more hits to minimum value. If a Mob's Modal hit is not the minimum hit, it might shift the Modal to a lower DI interger, thus reducing the amount of higher powered attacks.
4: The Higher value DI a mob has, the more drastic the effect of attack reduction.
5: A mob with low DI will still suffer from attack reduction, however because all possiable hits are closer together, the change is not as noticable and is apt to not have a drastic impact on adjusting the average hit by much.

Referance Points:
TSW Discussion Post (http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?t=13652)
TSW Libary Discussion on Mob Damage and Attack Rating Caculation (http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?t=13)

Let me just say that I understand what you are trying to do (also read the TSW thread) and I hope you get to where you want to go :)

If you find a druid-friendly parse mob and want a parse against higher AC, let me know. My AC with self-buff is around 2201-2205 (charm power depends on time of day). By druid-friendly I mean something rooted, with high atk rating but low DB :) Like rhags in ssra.. hmmm.. I can probably stay alive against one for 10-15 min or so.

Anyway, don't let the warriors tell you that AC is useless for anyone but a tank! :)

Good grief, this is a wealth of information. Gonna sticky.

Thank you Fenier and company. Good stuff.

I would like to mention that this in all probability not 100 percent accurate, but it should give some indication of what exactly is happening with an attack reduction.

-Fenier

Parsed a Taskmaster in Ssra Temple's Basement.

With my calucations its DB is 144, and has the DI value of 13. The Taskmaser's Level was 60. I have never seen this mob be any level other then 60, and I am going to assume its attack rating does not adjust randomly.


So I decided to do a longer Parse, 250-275 Hits Hits.

The First 250ish Hits gave an average hit value of: 252.07

The Hit Range and Percentage Per hit is shown Below.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/Fenier/ssra1.gif

The Second Set of Hits, which was debuffed, has drastically differant outcomes in the hit values. The Maximum hit was hit 10 percent less, and the Minimum hit was hit roughly 20 percent more. Average Hit for this data set is 212.00

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/Fenier/ssra2.gif

As you can see here, debuffing the attack by 190 lowered the average hit by 30.07 as well as nearly totally removed any chance of max hit.

This seenms to be a trend reguardless of which mob I test on. While I am not comfortable enough with my current results to say this is absolute, lowering the mobs attack rating seems to have rather drastic effects in reguards to which hit values are assigned to the tank and how often the mob is able to calucate a max hit.

-Fenier

We got some of our best minds chewing over th information available at TSW. Yoda seems to thing that there is something fishing going on. I have to agree, but I'm an idiot. Fenier has been doing a superb job of collecting information, and bring it to us, and asking some good questions.

The best thing we could get is some real parses done. Parsing is boring. I'm not gonna lie. If the druids here are interesting in a full explaination, we need to get our hands dirty.

We need good long parses. 200 or so hits is a nice start, but 1 or 2 hours of solid parsing against the same opponent under very strict control is much better. Bring the info to the thread at TSW, there we can disect it to find similarities or patterns.

As a former druid main, I'm very interested in these results. I used to main heal LDoNs back when I didn't have a CH. Atk debuffs were standard for me. I don't know how many times I was reinvited to heal again because I was actually able to keep healing with little or no downtime in those adventures and I wasn't even a cleric, which were scarce at the time.

I didn't know back then why main healing for druids was such a big deal. With the preliminary information here, I highly suspect it was from my religious use of ro's.

All this talk about druids has been wanting to solo with my druid more instead of /lfg with my warrior. :P

Hmm, well I have HoR perma memmed on my spell sets. I always figured that every bit helps, so I use it a lot. It's good to see that combined with Corona it does a lot.

Main healing druids just need to find a way to cast it and get heals off asap after. What i did pre-reptile was just cast when it was inc, usually paladins / warriors can grab agro fast before it came to beat me up and i was ready for a heal. With reptile its easier since you can cast it before its inc and it gives you a tad more time to land a debuff or two.

Fen, this is looking like a very good line of research.
Don't take this wrong, but why did you choose the method that you are using? That is, why HoR AND Corona at once? Yes, it is proving that ATK debuff is doing something, but it isn't quantitative *enough*.

LOL, what I am trying to say is that data that shows the atk effect at no debuffs, just corona, just hor, etc, could be useful to determine what is going on. That is, multiple runs against mobs at varying levels of atk debuff using various combinations of:

Sun's Corona
1: Decrease AC by 19
5: Decrease ATK by 90

Ro's Illumination
1: Decrease AC by 15
5: Decrease ATK by 80

Hand of Ro
7: Decrease Fire Resist by 72
10: Decrease ATK by 100
12: Decrease AC by 15

Ro's Smoldering Disjunction
1: Decrease AC by 26 (L56) to 28 (L70)
3: Decrease HP when cast by 150
4: Decrease ATK by 58 (L56) to 65 (L70)
7: Decrease Fire Resist by 64 (L56) to 66 (L70)

Fixation of Ro
1: Decrease AC by 15 (L42) to 19 (L70)
4: Decrease ATK by 51 (L42) to 65 (L70)

yeah, not everything stacks, but could definitely see 65, 66, 80, 90, 100, 180, 190 and such

Fen, this is looking like a very good line of research.
Don't take this wrong, but why did you choose the method that you are using? That is, why HoR AND Corona at once? Yes, it is proving that ATK debuff is doing something, but it isn't quantitative *enough*.


I choose both at once because typically they are used in conjunction with each other. Since each spell is roughly 100 percent, we can assume (and actually prove with parsing) that one spell would have pretty much half the results.

You could expand the reseach to include parsing with all levels of the spell line, but I feel futher parsing at 70 is probly the best way to go for now. Once we have proven or disproven the existing theory, we can start to qunatify it.

-Fenier

I choose both at once because typically they are used in conjunction with each other. Since each spell is roughly 100 percent, we can assume (and actually prove with parsing) that one spell would have pretty much half the results.

I actually decided while at work to do a quick parse against the TM shown above.

So I came home, and headed to Ssra.

First Parse - Also 250 hits

Fixation of Ro Only Used, so Mob - 65 Attack.

Average Hit went from 252.07 to 247.56.

Max Hit Percentage dropped from 10 percent, to 7.22 percent, roughly 1/3rd of the results, which is fairly in line with what I expected. No drastic increase to minimum hit.

Second Parse - 250 Hits

Hand of Ro only Used, so mob -100 attack.

Max Hit percentage dropped from 10 percent, to 2.57 percent. Minimum Hit increased to 43.75 Average dropped from 252.07 to 215.29

Will probly post charts of these parses later. Reguardless, of the attack value adjusted however, the trend of reducing the max hit and shifting the results to the left and lowering the average hit continues.

Would need much logner parses to have a better set of data to figure out a way to quantify this, but it seems the basic theory holds.

-Fenier

VERY VERY interesting Fenier .. always felt i had to debuff the named on raid and i always did .. and now i am sure i do something =)

a question : i did not understand how to predict the probability distribution of "x" (the 1-20 roll) from the difference of mob atk and mitigation ac.
I would like to make some healing capability calculations based on these formulas.

X Is random 1-20.

X is always random, is signifies every value a mob can hit for.

When a hit connects, an formula is ran with the mobs attack verus the players mitigation AC. The result of this formula determines the value of X.

If the forumula determines that X is equal to 20, you get a Max Hit.

If the Forumla determines that X is equal to 1, you get a min hit.

Attack reduction seem to alter the formula for X slightly. How it does this is unknown, but it would have to be either subtracting 190 from Attack, or adding 190 to mitigation AC. Due to this, you are apt to have X arrive as a lower value, meaning your not going to be hit as hard.

-Fenier

One thing I noticed.

The Fixation of Ro test above, the average hit was not decreased enough to indicate a DI shift.

Hand of Ro however, seems to have been enough decrease from average hit to indicate a 2 slot move in the DI range to the left.

From the limited parses I am not sure why this is. I suspsect you are more apt to see a DI shift to the left per every 100 attack reduction. My basis for this is from 100 to 190 isn't a large shift, nor is 0 to 65. 0 to 100 however, was. More testing is needed.

-Fenier

ok, what i was trying to get at was trying to see what various levels of attack did to quantify the results, not determine results for different levels of druids.

honestly, i don't often have corona loaded and doubt i really will. 9 spell gems. space is premium.

anyway, the other piece was to mix and match possibly to match various armor pieces.

parse mob with no debuff. parse mob not wearing a shield. parse mob with just corona. etc. this way you begin to get some real data comparing ATK debuff vs AC. a couple mobs with a full battery of such parses would be enough empirical data that i wouldn't worry about comparing to many different mobs.

of further and more realistic note: what is the effect truly on slowed mobs. yes yes the data is good and shows that on an unslowed mob the debuff might be meaningful and worth the mana.

at the moment tho, most of your testing is vs # hits, not vs time. great for determining how things works, but not for comparisons to actual game mechanics.

say an avg xp fight lasts 30-45 seconds. and the mob gets 50-75% slowed on inc. is it worth the time or mana to debuff with ro AND corona or is the time better spent throwing a nuke or rain?

also, is the test subject you for all these fights or a plate class? i saw something about a paladin but wasn't clear.

finally, you have posted that this is a unique ability. i am not so sure. wouldn't the components of http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=5394&source=Live or http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=5499&source=Live equate to the same if not more?

really, not trying to be a downer here. it is good data. glad to know that initial findings seem to show ~20% mitigation under the right conditions. just trying to get at what it really means. i'll continue throwing HoR on anything i think might live more than 30 seconds but doubt this will get me to throw corona on anything other than boss mobs, maybe.

of further and more realistic note: what is the effect truly on slowed mobs. yes yes the data is good and shows that on an unslowed mob the debuff might be meaningful and worth the mana.

It would totally be dependant on how many hits you plan to take from the mob. Against the TMs in Ssra I ended up tanking them for 5-10 minutes each per 250 hits. Obviously in a exp group, it wouldn't have been aive even a fraction as long, so debuffing it would have been pointless.


at the moment tho, most of your testing is vs # hits, not vs time. great for determining how things works, but not for comparisons to actual game mechanics.

I really do not seem time as a factor, the number of hits would determine if it is useful. If you are going to get hit alot (which is a direct indicator of time) then yes, they are handy, but using time as the base indicator isn't effective becuase a mob isn't hitting as fast if its slow, as an example.


also, is the test subject you for all these fights or a plate class? i saw something about a paladin but wasn't clear.

Myself, I can proly talk my paladin friend Sabreyn into helping me, the results should be similar.


finally, you have posted that this is a unique ability. i am not so sure. wouldn't the components of http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=5394&source=Live or http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=5499&source=Live equate to the same if not more?

This would vary by the mobs innate strength and how much attack reduction they suffer indirectly from the strength modifer.

-Fenier

Would a more accurate parse be without shielding? I was under the impression that shielding "scaled up" and had numbers lower down the more time you were tanking. I'm not sure but I read that here somewhere, on an opinion as to why shielding was kinda useless for druids.

Am I wrong?

Shielding adjust the DB value slightly.

However, provided the level of shielding was consisant during all parses, it should wash out as a non issue becuase then the only differance is the attack score.

In the avoid parses, my personal shielding level is 4.

-Fenier

Shielding adjust the DB value slightly.

However, provided the level of shielding was consisant during all parses, it should wash out as a non issue becuase then the only differance is the attack score.

In the avoid parses, my personal shielding level is 4.

-Fenier

Ok. I got confused when the assling Netura mentioned having the same gear for parses so i was stupid enough to think that you would compare it with other people's parses. I apologize.

damn asslings getting into my head :(

Myself, I can proly talk my paladin friend Sabreyn into helping me, the results should be similar.

This I would be interested in. Anecdotal evidence is fairly clear that plate, chain, silk and leather classes mitigate differently (and some classes within the same group, such as monk and druid leather wearers, are also different), and that warriors mitigate differently again.

I am speculating, but I wonder if your attack debuff provides diminishing returns as your tank increases in "ideal tanking" capability. It's possible that a debuffed mob hitting a druid provides more benefit than the same debuffed mob hitting say a ranger, and much more than the same debuffed mob hitting a warrior.

Effectively, therefore, your debuffs have the effect of improving the mitigation quality of your tank more towards the "warrior" end of the spectrum.

Its important to note that we aren't looking at the DPS numbers absolutely. Its all relative. Every mob hits for 20 values that scale the same regardless of class or AC level. The differences between classes comes from AC returns over the softcap, AC recieved through itemiztion (plate vs cloth), and avoidance numbers. there are several other factors too, but there are too many to list right now.

The main thing we want to look at is how the damage probabilities shift due to the atk debuff. Not how much damage the the target take, but how much it is reduced and in what way.

For instance, reducing maxs hits and shifting them all to lower DIs is much different to shifting all hits to min or max, with a general prevalence to min, both with could result in the same average damage/second, but they would drasticly behave differently in practice.

Also about the 100 or atk per DI shift is inline with observation from tank regarding the AC needed to shift to a new modal. This was observed several years ago, and is included in the ubertanking thread on TSW.

Also concerning diminishing returns: It is suspected that the greatest bonus from atk debuffs is that they are not subject to dimishing returns. This is of great interest to warriors, for obvious reasons. Further investigation will bear this out, but it will be time consuming and is one of the question I would like answered.

Shielding reduces a specific portion of the damage that mobs do. Specificly, the damage bonus portion. As such, it scales linearly across multiples of DI. Remember the biggest thing to look for is relative, I could concievably use my level 58 druid in elysian to do the parses. Tanks are used because they allow testing to be done a wider range of mobs and they are easier to heal during the test.

I was thinking about this at work today and these test are simply phenomenal. If things behave the way fenier's tests show, then this is information that needs to diseminated to all druids quickly. This alone could explain why some druid have such a hard time healing while others struggle to keep thier tanks alive. Not just from DPS, but the reduction of damage spikes which is worth its wieght in gold. Fenier may have found the druid "slow" and quantified it.

Try to get onto beta for parsing.. no idea if they're set up again with this one, but the last expansions beta had some pretty nifty tools for tests and parsing.

I was thinking about this at work today and these test are simply phenomenal. If things behave the way fenier's tests show, then this is information that needs to diseminated to all druids quickly. This alone could explain why some druid have such a hard time healing while others struggle to keep thier tanks alive. Not just from DPS, but the reduction of damage spikes which is worth its wieght in gold. Fenier may have found the druid "slow" and quantified it.

I 100% agree with the quote above. I do belive this is why some druids have a harder time healing than others... I'll explain my experience with this last night.

Fenier and I grouped lastnight in an Illislan instance. The first time since he has started parsing and posting about benifits of the debuffing, etc.

At first, seeing his charts and reading his posts, I was more or less intrigued but not convinced. I thought, "Yea, but is it really noticable in a group." I mean, I totally understood that against a raid mob, this is awesome. I just wasn't convinced that against group mobs it was worth the trouble. So, he decided to convince me. Without the numbers! :)

I am not a math connoisseur, so I will state in plain English what I saw lastnight in our mission. Just for comparison's sake, I had him alternate between debuffing and not. (I know this isn't credible for a parsing sake, it was really more or less for my benifit because I wanted to SEE it for myself.)

On the non-debuffed mobs, the damage I took was usual, with semi-drastic damage spikes. Sometimes to the point I was wondering if I'd be dead before cHeal hit. :)

However, against the debuffed mobs. I saw an increase in the amount minimum hits I was recieving. The amount of maximum hits I recieved was drastically (very noticably) lower. In fact, had I not known he was debuffing, I would have asked in group, what the hell was being done to make thier dps output drop so drastically. It was that noticable.

I know that its not tenable to be able to use both debuffs in all group situations, but where it is possible it should definately be implimented. Again, I was floored by the noticable difference. I honestly hadn't expected it to be such an astounding difference.

He and I plan to spend some time over the next couple days doing extensive parsing, to allow for a more factual conclusion to this topic.

/Hugs to Fenier :)

Hey Fenier, I was wondering if you had had a chance to test whether Fixation of Ro actually has a further effect on the hit distribution, since the atk debuff from it *should* be stacking with Hand of Ro and Sun's Corona.

No, I had a bad day yesterday and did not get much play time in, maybe tonight if I remember.

-Fenier

Fixation of Ro apparently stacks with Hand of Ro and Sun's Corana.

This makes maximum Druid attack reduction -255.

Would parse against the Ssra TM later and post a chart of max attack reduction results.

-Fenier

Awesome info, Fenier...it's nice to see numbers. A long ago druid, Gaash, prodded me to make good use of those debuffs when I was 'younger', but their effectiveness was really made clear to me a few years ago. A ranger friend and I were guildless and on a new server, and till we got to know more people we partnered in PoEarth a lot. He had a slow weapon, I had atk/ac debuffs, and between us we got some pretty decent killing done. No parsing, etc, but the effect was apparent.

Nice work, Fenier =)

during the xp fest this weekend did a lot of 69.1 (hard) missions. built some more empirical evidence that atk debuff is more than i expected. was in a group with war, pal, necro, wiz, chanter, druid (me). decided to play with hor/corona/fixation. to be fair the war is well geared, 14k hp and 2.9k ac unbuffed. pulls were crazy fast with 2-3 in camp at once (happens when a paladin is your puller). i used the atk debuffs consistently and healing certainly wasn't an issue.

yes. chanter slows helped until... the chanter left 1/2 thru due to a work emergency. we sat around a couple minutes looking for a slower. i told em screw it, let's really test this atk debuff theory and had the pally start pulling. pretty damn amazed even still. fully debuffed, the mob dps just wasn't much more than when they were slowed. even a couple 4-5 pulls didn't do much as the necro would kite em a bit til i had them debuffed and the war could take the aggro back.

yes, a lot of this was due to the war's gear. but still, tanking 2-3 mobs at once with just atk debuffs... i am convinced enough that corona will probably become a main stay on a spell set. i had always used ro before, but i think it may be worth having corona up, too. i don't know that fixation added that much.

also, did i mention SI was my main heal? :)

Fenier, thanks very much for pounding home how important this could be. I think I was a good healer before. Now I am better.

Due to the double exp this weekend I have majorly slacked on all charts, parses and graphs, sorry about that, but my alt is sure enjoying it! As such will be toward the end of the week before I end up with these posted ;x

I am really glad to see this has impacted some people in a positive way, I certainly didn't expect the findings I ended up with.

I really think this has been a balancing point for us for a long time now, just we where never aware of how important it was to how we healed with actual numbers and parses to back up our theories.

The attack reduction line of spells has had a massive impact in my personal nightly exp groups, and we're able to get by with far less healing them we have previously required which results in quicker missions.

Keep pushing yourselves, be surpirsed what we can do! =D


-Fenier

My wizard buddy wanted to play around with his "tanking" ability and took me to WoS for heals. We were pulling mobs on the south side (lvl64?). He did all of the dps and I only healed. Needless to say, he required a fair amount of healing (20% of my 9k mana pool, was about 6 or 7 Chlorotropes). I thought this might be a good time to play with the ATK debuffs, so on the next few mobs I stacked HoR, SC, and Fixation. This dropped the number of heals required to 4 or so per mob. Next we brought my chanter in for slows (Desolate Deeds) and Synapsis Spasm. Down to 2 heals per mob. This was not parsed or scientific in any meaningful way, but it did demonstrate to both of us the value of these debuffs.

A bit of background before I'll put in my chips on the value of these:
I live with my girlfriend, and one of my coworkers and his girlfriend. We all play EQ in the same room, and have a pretty solid group, and handle on what we can/can't do with our group (War, Cler, Dru, Mnk, Enc), and recently my gf's brother joined up with us, as a newly 70 shm (bit of overlap between him + my chanter).

We recently tried to do the 69.2 hard run to get the belt for the warrior (significant upgrade). Our first couple pulls were standard tash/slow/hand of ro... and it was brutal. Cleric had to spam smaller heals, with the druid helping, because CH + spots weren't enough. We had a couple deaths, some med breaks, and it was just generally slow and painful.

We decided we'd try pulling a single, mez it, do the 3 druid atk debuffs as well as synapse spasm and weakness from the chanter (didnt want to put asphixiate on, in case we had to re-mez), and a slow, of course.

Mez would drop... and the cleric was able to lazilly use only CH, without ever needing a spot heal.

This became our Standard for the mission. No more deaths (well, chanter once when warrior was distracted, and chanter got a resist on mez), and it was easy, smooth sailing after that.

I havent had a chance to measure how much the 3 strength debuffs from the chanter have on hit distribution, but I'm assuming that they have a similar effect based on how strength affects ATK.

A bit of background before I'll put in my chips on the value of these:
I live with my girlfriend, and one of my coworkers and his girlfriend. We all play EQ in the same room, and have a pretty solid group, and handle on what we can/can't do with our group (War, Cler, Dru, Mnk, Enc), and recently my gf's brother joined up with us, as a newly 70 shm (bit of overlap between him + my chanter).

We recently tried to do the 69.2 hard run to get the belt for the warrior (significant upgrade). Our first couple pulls were standard tash/slow/hand of ro... and it was brutal. Cleric had to spam smaller heals, with the druid helping, because CH + spots weren't enough. We had a couple deaths, some med breaks, and it was just generally slow and painful.

We decided we'd try pulling a single, mez it, do the 3 druid atk debuffs as well as synapse spasm and weakness from the chanter (didnt want to put asphixiate on, in case we had to re-mez), and a slow, of course.

Mez would drop... and the cleric was able to lazilly use only CH, without ever needing a spot heal.

This became our Standard for the mission. No more deaths (well, chanter once when warrior was distracted, and chanter got a resist on mez), and it was easy, smooth sailing after that.

I havent had a chance to measure how much the 3 strength debuffs from the chanter have on hit distribution, but I'm assuming that they have a similar effect based on how strength affects ATK.

Just a comment. There are 2 ATK debuffs (hand of ro and sun's corona)
with sun's corona being the top of its line and hand of ro being slightly unique.
The other debuffs (Glacier Breath and Immolation of Ro) are AC / resists :p

Just a comment. There are 2 ATK debuffs (hand of ro and sun's corona)
with sun's corona being the top of its line and hand of ro being slightly unique.
The other debuffs (Glacier Breath and Immolation of Ro) are AC / resists :p

Actually, there are 3.
<SMALL><SMALL><SMALL>
Sun's Corona DRU/67
1: Decrease AC by 19
5: Decrease ATK by 90

Hand of Ro DRU/61
7: Decrease Fire Resist by 72
10: Decrease ATK by 100
12: Decrease AC by 15

Fixation of Ro DRU/42
1: Decrease AC by 15 (L42) to 19 (L70)
4: Decrease ATK by 51 (L42) to 65 (L70)

Slot 5, Slot 10, Slot 4, that is three slots from three spells that stack.

I'm not sure what the AC from Fixation and Corona do, but the ATK components do stack (and neither spells blocks or overwrites the other).

See post 37 farther up this page for confirmation from Fenier too.
</SMALL></TD></SMALL></TD></SMALL></TD>

X Is random 1-20..

-Fenier

May I suggest that X might be possibly higher than 1-20, maybe 1-30 for arguements sake, and that if the formula rolls a 25-30 it makes it equal to 25(max damage), and if it rolls a 1-4 it makes it equal to 5 (min damage) and that a debuff reduces said number by 2 or 3...making it less likely by far to hit max and more likely to hit min????

May I suggest that X might be possibly higher than 1-20, maybe 1-30 for arguements sake, and that if the formula rolls a 25-30 it makes it equal to 25(max damage), and if it rolls a 1-4 it makes it equal to 5 (min damage) and that a debuff reduces said number by 2 or 3...making it less likely by far to hit max and more likely to hit min????

The 20 DI values show all values a mob can hit for.

If you get hit for a sizable number of hits, you will only be hit (means you exclude kick and bash) for 20 differant values with a certain number (which is the DI value) between those numbers.

Certain DI values are more likely to be hit for reasons not exceptionally well understood, so your theory may be partially correct. However we have no way that I am aware of to verify this. This theory is eccoed slightly on the warrior forums.

However, since the data present can be proved based on the 20 system I have chosen to use that in my explanation. Also, unless I am understanding your point incorrectly from yoru example you would end up with the same results reguardless.

-Fenier

What it would do is (just like your charts show) make it less likely to hit a number that would result in a max damage hit, and way more likely to hit a number (maybe even in the negatives if both or all three debuffs are used) that results in the minimum damage.

the point is that ATK modifier is what accomplishes that...

I may be being dense, but I am really not seeing your point.

The Attack Reduction causes the shift in DI to the left. Weather the DI generater uses 20 or 30, the base of the result is the same. So really 1-20 could be 1-50 and it doesn't change the numbers a mob hits for are 20 differant values and that attack reduction changes which of those values are more apt to be hit.

So while I fully understand your point, I am not seeing the direction you are going with it.

-Fenier

May I suggest that X might be possibly higher than 1-20, maybe 1-30 for arguements sake, and that if the formula rolls a 25-30 it makes it equal to 25(max damage), and if it rolls a 1-4 it makes it equal to 5 (min damage) and that a debuff reduces said number by 2 or 3...making it less likely by far to hit max and more likely to hit min????

X will range from 1-20, but the distribution isn't linear or truely random. So you have 20 discrete results that can result from the DI calculation, and they are distruibuted according to a formula which rationalises ATK vs. AC values. This formula we don't have complete transparancy on, but that's the part you're looking at Marp, not the 20 values themselves.

Where the attack debuffs are useful is that they impact the distribution of those 20 numbers significantly towards the smaller values.

Warriors have looked at this data for a long time. The idea of 1-50 or even 1-100 is moot. The mob will only ever hit you for 1-20 atk buffed, debuffed, slowed or not, it has always been DB + random(DI1-20).

If the background formula based on all of the variables (AC, ATK, shielding, etc) is lower that DI1 you get DI1. If it is greater than DI20, you get DI20.

Is it possible that a non debuffed mob is set to calculate for above DI20? Of course - how else would a non debuffed mob hit for max so often? Fen's data proves that a good defuffing is going to drastically affect that formula and take it out of the DI>20 range.

I myself have HoRed everything that it would stick to, and have noticed how much it helps me as a healer. I may now need to unmem something and SC.

WTB a 10th spell slot PST!

This is great info... excellent work.

Going for a new round of parsing before the expansion hits so most of the work is done for parsig new spells (should we get them)

I want to make sure these are correct

I need parses for

0
65
80
90
100
145
155
165
180
190
245
255

I was thinking of doing 1,000 hits per parse (Yes I know 20,000 hits would be better, but 1,000 hits is nearly a full hour of parsing)

Anyone have anything else to add?

Noc Darkluch - Without Debuffs:
Attack Adjustment: 0
Number of Hits: 1800
Number of Misses: 1756
Accuracy: 50.62
Damage Delt: 287,557
Average Hit: 159.75
Mob DPS: 81.09

http://www.wolveninstincts.com/images/noc.jpg


Debuffed: Hand of Ro, Fixation of Ro, Sun's Corana
Attack Adjustment: -255
Number of Hits: 1800
Number of Misses: 1754
Accuracy: 50.65%
Damage Delt: 198,869
Average Hit: 110.48
Mob DPS: 55.99
Note: DI19 (360) never once occured in 1800 hits during the debuffed parse


http://www.wolveninstincts.com/images/noc255.jpg


Differences:
Average Hit Dropped: 49.27
Damage Dropped: 88,688
Percentage Differance in Damage: 31%
DPS Dropped: 25.1
Percentage Differance in DPS: 31%

What zone was this, and what level was the mob?

Dark Blue Noc in Riwwi.

Higher mobs its more like 20%~, but it varries. Best numbers I have is druids can always decrease incoming dps by at least 10%., normally with HoR and SC is more like 15%~.

Fenier, stop using modal. It is both statistically unstable and doesn't reflect the distribution of hits that well.

The problems with modal include that it tends to jump from max_hit to min_hit very quickly. It also doesn't describe what goes on after min_hit is the most common hit value.

In addition, you'll note your graphs have relatively "flat" areas in the middle (well, flat with lots of noise). Calculating the Modal (most common hit) can pick up that noise and generate crap output.

Finally, you aren't using the word modal all that correctly. Modal isn't the average or mean hit -- it is the most common hit.

What we need are statistically stable measures of hit mitigation that reflect the shape of the incoming damage.

A Theory: min/max hits work differently than other hits.

So, here is an attempt at a stable and meaningful measure of the amount of "hit mitigation" a certain amount of AC or -ATK causes:

Divide incoming hits into two sets.
"outer" hits are hits for min/max.
"inner" hits are hits for anything else.

The "roll" of a hit is the value X in the formula
Damage = DB + DI * X
The "roll" goes from 1 to 20.

Calculate three numbers:
The average roll of the outer hits
The average roll of the inner hits
The percentage of hits that are outer hits (min or max)

Ideally, a relationship between the above 3 numbers should fall out, given enough observations. Once we have such a relationship, we can pick the most stable of the above 3 numbers and use it to say "you are mitigation this much against that mob with these debuffs".

...

Edit
At the very least, posting the "average roll" and of the chart would go a long way to seeing if there is a pattern in what -ATK debuffs do. Without a spreadsheet, other people can do it by hand -- but recalculating this from images is really annoying.

Anyone tested VT clicky arms to confirm what it does/doesn't stack with?

Sorry for random bump, but oh well!

Fryar

Anyone tested VT clicky arms to confirm what it does/doesn't stack with?

Sorry for random bump, but oh well!

Fryar

-ATK same slot as Fixation

I talked with Rashere quite a bit about this during beta.

We are correct on the following points:

1: Lowering ATK does shift the ADI to the left to the point of DI1
2: The amount ADI shifts to the left is relative to the rAC of the tank.

Example:

If you're tanking at DI2, the most the debuffs can do is shift to DI1, so the difference will not be as big then if your tanking at DI 6.

3: As my parses from 2006 showed, basepop (IE zone trash) atk has not increased much, if at all, since PoP. Which means people with super high AC levels are tanking at lower then intended DI I would assume. This is why the effects of -atk debuffs are not as noticeable on basepop for raid geared parsers.

4: The monk AA Eye Gogue is supposed to lower incoming DPS for it's duration by upto 20%. This means druids can alter the dps of a mob by at least 20% (which is roughly what my parses showed even with rAC being > NPC ATK. Dependant of course, on the tank in question and what rAC value they have in relation to NPC ATK.

5: The effect is actually more clearly visable in Raids, since they are hand tuned and their atk values have been updated for higher rAC.

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?topic_id=123613

Forgive me for not reading the many pages of this thread.

I just want to mention that I once asked if there was some kind of breakdown of what debuffs we have and how they stack (and don't). Because no one was able to show me one, I've created one.

This is only for high level druids, I hope to add lower level spells. Again, it is at the "just started" stage so I hope to add more, although that depends on my energy level.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a326/Fanra/EverQuest/druiddebuffs.jpg

That is a screenshot of the table at http://everquest.wikispaces.com/Spells%2C+Songs+%26+Disciplines

Please everyone feel free to update the wiki at that link and fix any errors in it.

Currently it only lists rank one spells and all numbers are based on the druid caster being level 80.

Looking at it, it seems there has been no update to Hand of Ro since it came out at level 61. However, Hand of Ro is still quite a good spell, so while I would like an update, it is still decent.

The Skin to Plant type spells seem the same effect on both, I assume the difference is that the higher level one can affect higher level mobs.

The Druids Grove is, of course, welcome to use the table or image in any way they want to.

As discussed elsewhere, the big problem is that the druid needs to use many spell slots and take a lot of time to cast all of these to get any kind of decent debuffing on the mob.

Oh, I see that I forgot to put in Sun's Corona. I assume that Hoar Frost and Gelid Frost are the upgrades for Sun's Corona, they just check against cold resist instead of fire resist.

I haven't checked yet, but I assume Hoar Frost and Gelid Frost overwrite Sun's Corona, even if they check cold resist.

P.S. Ok, I just checked and yes, Gelid Frost overwrites Sun's Corona, so I assume that Hoar Frost and Gelid Frost are the upgrade.

Fixation of Ro needs to be added. It's a relatively low level spell, but it stacks with all of the listed spells and remains important to high level druids (since it has no upgrade).

Fixation of Ro needs to be added. It's a relatively low level spell, but it stacks with all of the listed spells and remains important to high level druids (since it has no upgrade).
Thanks. I never knew about that. This is one of the reasons why I made the chart, so I could find out from other people these facts.

I updated the wiki chart with Fixation of Ro.

Thanks again.

I've been gone awhile and I'm the only druid in my guild still and I've been trying to wrap my head around debuffs again.

So you're saying all these debuffs now stack with one another? Or just one from each line? I could try and find out the trial and error way but I'm sitting here before A raid trying to set up my raid spellsets.

Hand of Ro lasts 3 minutes, and the Torrid Sunray line lasts 1 minute. These are in bold, indicating that you may want to keep them memmed for the duration of the fight.
The rest last 10 minutes, if I remember right.
Also, Torrid Sunray and its predecessors are dots, and so should not be applied to mezzed mobs. Of course not many mezzable mobs live long enough for it to be worthwhile to apply a full set of debuffs.

Against mobs weak to both fire and cold, use:
* Hand of Ro
* Chillvapor Breath (or Icefall Breath, or Glacier Breath)
* Gelid Frost (or Hoar Frost)
* Fixation of Ro
* Optional: Torrid Sunray (or Blistering Sunray, or Immolation of the Sun)
* Optional: Skin to Mulch (or Skin to Vines)

Against cold resistant mobs, use:
* Hand of Ro
* Sun's Corona
* Fixation of Ro
* Optional: Torrid Sunray (or Blistering Sunray, or Immolation of the Sun)
* Optional: Skin to Mulch (or Skin to Vines)

Against fire resistant mobs, use:
* Chillvapor Breath (or Icefall Breath, or Glacier Breath)
* Gelid Frost (or Hoar Frost)

So you're saying all these debuffs now stack with one another? Or just one from each line? I could try and find out the trial and error way but I'm sitting here before A raid trying to set up my raid spellsets.
One from each line. If you look at the chart, the debuffs are grouped. Use the best one from each group that you can cast.

You're my hero(s). Now to make more spell sets and ones that make more sense. After being gone 2 years I've gotten a little rusty on which land and what does what, all this helps immensely.

Optional: Skin to Mulch (or Skin to Vines)
I would make this a priority right next to HoR. The slashing and fire damage bonus adds to the overall raid dps. The Necros will love you for the bonus to their fire dots.

The slashing and fire damage bonus adds to the overall raid dps.
I thought the slashing damage was removed from this group of spells when they couldn't get it to work right? Anyone?

The damage boost from Skin to Vines/Mulch is very small. It also blocks Heartshot.

And yes, I think the slashing bonus was removed.

To each their own I guess. Druids in my guild use it consistently.

P.S. It has not been confirmed that the slashing bonus was removed. The fire damage bonus alone justifies using it, especially with 4-5 Necros at raid who will /tell us Druids to cast if we happen to forget.

As a long time duoer with my warrior and my druid, from a real world perspective:

Tossing a couple good ATK debuffs DOES make a noticeable difference when duoing (takes more time to kill stuff so it's fairly obvious). I checked long ago and it made about a 20% difference in damage taken, but that was way back around level 55-60. I'd still say it's maybe 15% based on my healing efforts. It really does take the edge off regardless of the exact number.

When I'm grouping it's less important because the mob dies faster so that the debuff doesn't make so much difference, and I have lots of other things to do as a druid in the group anyway, but I still toss one or two in there as much for the resist debuff as the ATK debuff.

Related: The graphics can be a pain, but using our best Wolf form for the ATK bonus (around 100) on my warrior does increase the damage he dishes (just as a mobs decreases when ATK is DEbuffed). The combination is good.

I would love to see a single combined debuff that had as much of our combined debuff power as possible (ATK, AC, FR, CR, increased damage). Call it a druid's Malo. Having Malo line AND Slow is just not fair! /GRIN

Hi all! I like using the Hand of Ro debuff for making my fire dots land easier. However, I have my reservations as to the ATK debuffs and how they get applied. I have seen several posts about dmg output and how the ATK debuffs affect it at lower levels. But now that my group is fighting mobs lvl 75-80 that seem to quad for 1300+, is debuffing 90-150 ATK really going to make that much of a difference? I'm just wondering if the dmg output of today's high lvl mobs have outgrown the usefullness of our ATK debuffs. I'd love to hear everyone's opinion on this!

Hey Zac,

Unfortunately Fenier no longer frequent's this board - but he has done extensive work on this whole subject and has created a type of "following" regarding it. I do believe that using the debuffs affect the current mob targets - even if it is only 150 decrease. I tend to use both HoR and some of the newer Debuffs like Torrid Sunray. I have another druid I hunt with and between the two of us we can usually decrease the atk value of each mob considerably. For more details and specifics I would suggest contacting Fenier. He can be found on the EQ boards and the Spirit Realm - found here http://crucible.samanna.net/index.php

I personally was wondering where is our Hand of Ro upgrade, after all it is a level 61 spell.