That someone can post walkthroughts to Spell Quests soon as they are solved, that someone can find the mission step in a Epic Quest and be praised if they share it, but someone that tries to help people with an access quest is flamed.

Really, there not that much differant, and where access to ToB does in no way ensure access to Deathknell, wonder what everyone's big issue with it is? Not to mention the end zone of Omens/Depths and Deathknell are all instanced.

-Fenier

Nanyea (who wrote CR's ToB walkthrough) is a member of TR and does work for caster's realm (note, CR is a commerical site.) I'm sure he didn't figure out every step himself. I'm sure, if not all, just about all of the info on the article is stuff Nanyea colaberated from his guildies. So, his guildies work hard to be some of the first people to zone into ToB, than Nanyea takes their hard works and exploits it for his own personal gain (ie getting more viewers to CR for more ad $.) Gotta love it :cool:

Back more on the dicussion at hand, I feel that it's still a bit early to post spoilers on the quest. There is a big difference between getting into a locked zone than getting a spell. I feel sorry for people who were working hard on figuring it out themself and not being able to accomplish what they wanted. Why is there a difference between epics + spells and locked zone keys? Well epics and spells are strictly personal gains - zone keys aren't.

Well epics and spells are strictly personal gains - zone keys aren't.

I am not sure I agree with this statment.

This was true for sure at one point.

While an Epics/Spells are for a single person, there is really no point in keeping the information secret.

In previous expansions, Vex Thal, Time, etc was non-instanced. There was valid good reasoning for limiting how people gained access to the zone.

in Omens Anguish was instanced, the only reason to keep information secret on Anguish signet locations was to limit the amount of people signet farming, however all the static zone signet droppers had multiple spawn points so even this wasn't that bad.

Depths Dreadspire flagging was 3 instanced tasks and a task whcih had random drops from an area then you moved on. Not that bad. You certainly don't see lots of pickup people in Dreadspire, at least on my server.

Demiplane was kept kinda hush hush imo simply due to the few progression tasks which took place in a static zone of Dreadspire. Demiplane was instanced so there was no real reason to keep people from knowing how to get there aside from the 2 or 3 static progression tasks.

Theater of Blood is not an exp zone. One account on Sony's Forums places trash killing somewhere around the 10 minute mark with a single group. Even if you flagged 3 groups for ToB they are not about to attempt the Deathknell Guardian Mobs for keys. Most people set on Deathknell at this point are sporting drastically better armor then the class specfic tier 2 from ToB.

I guess my point is, in the older days it made sense to keep things quiet. Not so much anymore where the End Zones are all instanced, it really (in ToB esp) has little impact how many have access to the zone because it doesn't interfere with Deathknell at all.

I think what it boils down to is everyone needs spells, but not everyone needs ToB access. There is very little differance between the two, I mean I could have personally not wrote a walkthrough to the North Ro missions and people would have figured it out just fine, I just saved them a bit of time in failing or wondering what to do. I consider this considerate, but that is just my opinion.

-Fenier

Completely wrong.

In previous expansions, Vex Thal, Time, etc was non-instanced. There was valid good reasoning for limiting how people gained access to the zone.

ToB IS an open zone. ToB DOES drop key pieces to the final zone. The mobs that drop these pieces are ridiculously easy to kill (same as all PoR raid mobs). Having 3-4 guilds running around this zone is very much a killer of progression and to those that figured out how to get keyed and key their guild it was an advantage which they should reap the reward for at least a few days. Not a full strat posted within 12 hours imo.

Think of it as SSRA/VT era, your guild figures out how to key for emp room (ToB). You are keying your guild like mad because Guild B is trying to figure out how to make key to emp room also. Joe Blow posts full info on the web for anyone to see. Guild B finds it, gets keyed and are ready to do Emp SSRA the same day as you. But wait, Guild B starts raids at noon your time and your guild won't be raiding til 6pm, game over. Guild B raiding VT, your guild sitting around with their thumbs up their @@@ for the next 7 days waiting on respawn (and praying Guild B doesn't kill it again outside of your raid hours).

This zone is NOT public friendly like Dreadspire was. I'd say it takes at least 2 groups to kill trash mobs, Demiplane geared toons.

I understand your point, I really do.

I may be missing something however.

I havn't finished my key as of yet. So I have no first hand experiance and I admit that up front.

The information I have is as follows:

There are 6 Guardian Mobs for Deathknell.
They each drop (12? this may have changed since beta discussion) progression items
They each respawn in 24? Hours (again possiably change since beta).

If those numbers are correct, thats 72 progression items in one clear. Even assuming those numbers are double the actual amount, it would still be 36 pieces.

Even at 36 pieces your looking at maybe 2 or 3 clears to gear a typical 70ish~ person guild.

I know there is backflagging for Deathknell inside in a similar manner to Anguish as this was mentioned in beta.

Now if that is correct - and please do correct me if I am wrong, the only way to lock another guild out of Deathknell is to kill all 6 mobs every day before the other guild logs in. Daily.

Now, I think I can speak for most people that killing the same 6 mobs for items we don't need instead of actually being inside Deathknell would get to me pretty fast.

This is *much* differant then VP, ST, VT and Time because in each of those cases the bottleneck mob was at least 7 days (Elemental Gods, orignally 7 days iirc). This means your guild could kill the key mobs all on the same day, every week - and do something else for the other 6 days (or kill one key mob daily and have the spawn staggered, but the point is the same).

Also, I posted this at 8 AM on the 22nd:

Also of note for those looking at the Theater of Blood:

Alter Plane: Theater of Blood: http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.htm...71&source=Live (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=8771&source=Live)

What I feel is important about this is the text you see when the effect is cast:

You strike the chime

The Arch Magus of Arcstone speaks of Chimes that where used to access A Ro's Demiplane of Magic which where destroyed by Sullen Zek.

This is very possiably part of the access quest, should anyone want to follow up on it

Wyre expanded on it 3 hours later, at 11 AM but the start was pretty clear early on just from talking with the Arch Magus. Anyone who followed that conversation should have known Skylance was involved, esp if they actually read the text Ao the Fourth gives you in his missions.

The quest was not as hidden as say, The VT Key, which was messed up to begin with, or the VP key, where you had to guess the phrase to say to the Emporer. It wasn't even as hidden as the Dreadspire Key in my personal opinion.

Honestly, I am pretty surpirsed it took 5 days to show up on the web, and while I can understand the frusteration, I don't think most people are capable of surving there, and its definatly not a experiance zone so it kinda eliminates alot of the potional issues after the guilds first in get their keys and move into Deathknell.

-Fenier

Looking at the quality of the drops ie. the tier 2 armor, the zone is specifically designed to gear up medium level people. Of course this zone is going to become a zoo because of that, so putting high end raid progression mobs in the same zone was probably a mistake.

I actually think its sort of cool that there will be a crowded raid zone.

Although im the kind of guy that thought the hardcore arguements and fighting involved with racing for ST key dragons/NToV/AoW was awesome! :texla:

edit: And I don't mean the arguements were awesome, but the whole atmosphere and interaction of racing/competing sure was

Initially I didn't think this thread was about me... but someone pointed out that the initial statements of it were very specifically yelling Nimchip - I let that simmer in a while and fast forward today and I couldn't help but post thinking that something was lost in translation. If it isn't then it's all good - but somehow I had to reply to clear things up in case it was.

Fenier, I didn't flame anyone. I indirectly warned him about it and later talked with him in game. Hopefully you just misunderstood my post.

It's not that I didn't approve. I did think it was slightly sudden. I knew about the quest before I'm just not at the liberty to spoiling such quest due to my guild's duty. I encourage druids to find and finish the quest, you've only my support. I already talked with Wyre about it and he told me he got flamed. Well that's fine, just go on because pretty much you got nothing to lose. Go ahead and finish it.

Some people have already asked me to remove it but I simply won't. The nerve to even ask me such a thing - which I am both forbidden by the rules and by myself. I even got some people telling some guildmembers (a cleric specifically) that they're "angry" and I simply told the cleric to let him know he can send me a tell any time. You know who you are if you've been monitoring this thread, go ahead and talk with me.

Information is free, I'm not gonna nazi censor stuff just cause John Doe is angry about it - or just because it doesn't benefit me. That is not my job. I am here to help moderate the community. Get angry about it if you will and then move on. This thread is here to stay.

If you feel that I'm doing an erroneous job, then feel free to keep flaming.

On a related note, I'm sure the flame attacks started because of the spell threads. They generated tremendous popularity with about 50 to 100 people viewing the Expansion board alone, thanks to the contributions of yourself and Ruath among others. It seems they took a peek where it says "TOB Key" and started the flaming mill. I'm pretty sure that the flamers weren't druids that frequent the site regularly if druids at all.

It wasn't about you at all, I totally agree with you rpost and stance.

I was more refering to people who would directly try to make someone's life difficult because there was information they didn't want shared.

Your doing an awesome job, keep up the good work.

I actually think its sort of cool that there will be a crowded raid zone.

Although im the kind of guy that thought the hardcore arguements and fighting involved with racing for ST key dragons/NToV/AoW was awesome! :texla:

edit: And I don't mean the arguements were awesome, but the whole atmosphere and interaction of racing/competing sure was

Little bit of a derail, sorry. Thats one of the things that made the game miserable to me. I prefer the nice mix we have now, I like being competitive but the constant trains and idiotic tactics of some guilds just sucked the fun out of the game fighting over static mobs.

Theater of Blood trash was designed to be 1 groupable for demiplane-geared players, or 3-4 groupable for potime-level (for qvic level class specific random drops). And while the guardians aren't the hardest mobs in the game, they are not going to be contestable except by demiplane+ players for some time I would imagine. I know Cestus Dei and Township Rebellion being on the same server hasn't really hampered either guild killing the guardians. It's a matter of respecting who was there first, and since typically multiple mobs are up at once there's something for everyone to do without interferring/griefing.

Just to maintain the pointless derail (and I'm bored out of my mind at work at 7am on a Saturday..)

... And while the guardians aren't the hardest mobs in the game, they are not going to be contestable except by demiplane+ players for some time I would imagine. ...

If they arne't that hard people will start farming them for the last blood aug that aren't demiplane+ unless I'm missing something raidwise to get to them. (yeah yeah I still need to do my ToB access)

...I know Cestus Dei and Township Rebellion being on the same server hasn't really hampered either guild killing the guardians. It's a matter of respecting who was there first, and since typically multiple mobs are up at once there's something for everyone to do without interferring/griefing.

It's been a long time, and I know TR isn't even the same people anymore that first left Druzzil-ro years ago, but when you mention a guild that had the reputation for interferring/griefing now "playing nice" I couldn't help but laugh. Granted I was just a newb running around Velious when the Seekers broke up part reformed as Vindication and moved to SH and reformed partially as TR, but man people still spit blood when they hear the name Vindication on D-ro.

If you feel some secrets are worthy to share while others arent, based purely on your position and how much competition this will give you, I have no sympathy for you, only the delight knowing you will forever be pissed off as this continues to happen over and over.

but when you mention a guild that had the reputation for interferring/griefing now "playing nice" I couldn't help but laugh.
Well, I'm not saying there hasn't been a bit of friction at times, but in my opinion the specifics are between the two guilds involved and not really the subject of discussion here =/

I don't think the information ought be kept secret per se, but honestly I think there's fun to be had in discovering things for yourself/your guild rather than waiting for someone to post the walkthrough.

If someone wants to "discover" things for themself, I think they will. If someone wants to wait til someone does post a walk through, then they will. Live and let live. I know I'm not going to impose my opinions on others to the point where I am willing to hinder a bunch of people. If someone wants to keep someone else from progressing or attaining spells, etc., I should hope that they don't complain about the next person they group with who doesn't have that stuff.