http://www.slate.com/id/2139775?nav=wp

Pro-choice? Until recently.
Pro-gay? Until recently.

He's taken a sharp turn to the hard right to try to win the 2008 Republican nod.

Such a shame, I had high hopes for him being a maverick.

http://www.slate.com/id/2139775?nav=wp

McCain was not always the moderate, tolerant character I'm describing. He was a conservative before he was a liberal before he became a conservative again. McCain began his political career in the 1980s as an untroubled Reagan Republican. His outlook changed drastically, however, after he nearly went down in the Keating Five scandal, for which he blamed both himself and the money-politics system. In the early 1990s, McCain caught the reform bug and became the Senate's foremost advocate of campaign finance reform, as well as an outspoken opponent of corporate welfare and pork-barrel spending. His reform zeal opened the door to other heresies and formed the basis for his presidential run. Part of what was compelling about McCain as a candidate in the 2000 primaries was that he was a politician in genuine flux. On the campaign trail, you could see him losing faith in conservative orthodoxy on issues like poverty, income inequality, health care, and global warming, spurred by encounters with humans in New Hampshire and elsewhere.

Boy, oh boy. And they called Kerry a waffler.

Meh, Hillary will win in 2008 anyway.

Honestly, I don't think anybody will be happy with anyone who runs from now until the fall of the United States.

Mavericks don't get voted President.

Meh, Hillary will win in 2008 anyway.I think at this point if Winnie the Pooh was a Democrat he'd win in 2008. Oh wait! Pooh bear is a Euro. Ok nevermind him, but I would say that as long as the Democrat's candidate takes baths and shows at least "ok" on TV, he or she will be the next president. Let's just hope that they find a candidate who cares enough about the USA to put the country first and personal ambitions second. Republicans have been having a tough time with this lately. :rolleyes:

McCain seems to have given up his maverick status.

There was a guy... name eludes me, who was running as a democrat in NJ, I think. Hacket! That was his name. Anyway, he was doing well. He spoke his mind, didn't pull his punches and was becoming wildly popular in a mostly Republican district. He got bullied out of the race by the DNC who wanted somone more malleable.

Argh!

His last name was Ryan and he was a republican. DNC 86'ed him by getting a judge to release his divorce papers to ex-trek actress Jerry Ryan. It was embarrasing for him so he dropped out of the race altogather before the damned dirty apes got another chance to embarass him or his splintered family. Thank God I live in Florida.... sometimes.

Kalest.

Youve described pretty well why I dont trust McCain. I live in California; I've had my fill of RINO types. No, give me Allen or Romney anyday!

I sincerely hope that the rest of the Dem party shares the optimism displayed in this thread for Hillary's chances. The hatred the left has for Bush is mirrored, if not exceed, by the hatred the right has for Hillary.

I'm not saying she cannot win. I'm saying I sincerely hope that Dem political strategists consider her a shoe-in, because she's a definite possibilty and I want her to go down in flames and I dont want them stragetizing about how to make it happen, I want them to consider it a done deal.

She's far from a shoe-in.

Well, I think most Democrats believe Hillary can't win simply because there is a visceral hatred of her from most Republicans. As DeLay was overheard saying, "there's nothing worse than an opinionated woman", and I think that probably sums up what Republicans dislike most about her.

Well you'd be wrong in attributing that to most Reps, but Im sure that accounts for some of it.

We can take my own reasons as examples of some alternative explanations for why some Reps dislike her:
1. She wasnt elected, but decided to become a political figure anyway. I hate first ladies thinking they have political relevance, regardless of party - they refuse to discuss their views during the campaign, but then think they get to have some power after their husbands get elected. I'm all for a woman president -- I despise the idea of first ladies, and she was one of the most politically involved ever.
2. I dont trust a woman who supports abortion (most dont). I can understand why men dont object (men dont feel that protective 'maternal' instict in the same way as women, and most men who support abortion do so because they want a get out of jail free card available), but to me, a woman who supports abortion is denying one of her most basic instincts. And is therefor not to be trusted.
3. She insulted all stay-at-home mothers by procliaiming that what they do isnt work, and doesnt count as a career. Publically. On camera. stuuuuuupid move.
4. She didnt leave Bill when he cheated on her.

Im sure theres lots of others, but those are the top 4 reasons I, as a republican, would never vote for her. I suggest that sexism is as rare as racism in motivations among Republicans: very, very rare.

2. I dont trust a woman who supports abortion (most dont).You need to recheck your statistics regarding your "most don't" statement.

2. I dont trust a woman who supports abortion (most dont).

I call bull**** on that one.

2/3 of America as a whole still support the right to choose.

2. I dont trust a woman who supports abortion (most dont).
I don't trust anyone who believes they have the right to tell a woman what to do with her body.

I dont trust a woman who supports abortion (most dont).

I always thought that the right to abortion was one of the great advances in women's liberation, as demanded mostly by women. Excuse me if I was slightly confused there.

a woman who supports abortion is denying one of her most basic instincts. And is therefor not to be trusted.

I'm glad a man didn't say that, he'd be in an awful lot of trouble :). Women should be mothers and stay at home and raise children, it's their instinct you know.

I suggest that sexism is as rare as racism in motivations among Republicans: very, very rare.

Well if a man just said what you'd said then he'd be considered sexist all right!

I hate first ladies thinking they have political relevance, regardless of party

If you vote for Hillary you'll get a first gentleman who'll probably be political too. I don't think Republicans would like him either :).

Well you'd be wrong in attributing that to most Reps, but Im sure that accounts for some of it.
[quote]
We can take my own reasons as examples of some alternative explanations for why some Reps dislike her:
1. She wasnt elected, but decided to become a political figure anyway. I hate first ladies thinking they have political relevance, regardless of party - they refuse to discuss their views during the campaign, but then think they get to have some power after their husbands get elected. I'm all for a woman president -- I despise the idea of first ladies, and she was one of the most politically involved ever.
Did you feel that way about Eleanor Roosevelt too? Gad, I can't think of any first Lady that was more influential on politics than her.


2. I dont trust a woman who supports abortion (most dont). I can understand why men dont object (men dont feel that protective 'maternal' instict in the same way as women, and most men who support abortion do so because they want a get out of jail free card available), but to me, a woman who supports abortion is denying one of her most basic instincts. And is therefor not to be trusted.
HUH! You should come out of that cave sometime. Something like 70% of the people in the US support abortion. Probably at least half of them are women.


3. She insulted all stay-at-home mothers by procliaiming that what they do isnt work, and doesnt count as a career. Publically. On camera. stuuuuuupid move.
4. She didnt leave Bill when he cheated on her.
#3, I doubt strongly. #4... who gives a crap? Its her own decision to stay or leave.

Im sure theres lots of others, but those are the top 4 reasons I, as a republican, would never vote for her. I suggest that sexism is as rare as racism in motivations among Republicans: very, very rare.
Well, it seems to be a strong motivation for you.

You need to recheck your statistics regarding your "most don't" statement.

Aldarion deals with another reality, sometimes....

A good woman stands by her man when he turns out to be a lying cheating scumbag. It is our nurturing instinct that makes us understand. Besides, since we like to stay at home and raise kids anyhow, what business is it of ours what he does out there. It isn't our domain.


(the above comments should not be taken as anything but tongue in cheek. also, I have every respect for mothers, taking care of kids is about the hardest job there is, if you do it right. I just couldnt resist the dig)

Getting back to the topic of McCain, I find it a little sad. Up until recently I liked him, but my interest in him as a presidential candidate has been waning. Sadly, he's gone from being "the maverick" to just pandering to the same base that got Bush elected. And I agree, it just makes him look inconsistant, and will likely hurt him in the primaries anyways. Perhaps this is just McCain's ploy to win the primaries, and he's still that "maverick" at heart, but how do I know that it's not the reverse? Maybe the "maverick" was what got him elected, but now he's seeing he has to show his true self to become president?

I'm still really hoping someone more moderate will step-up and run.

She wasnt elected, but decided to become a political figure anyway. I hate first ladies thinking they have political relevance, regardless of party - they refuse to discuss their views during the campaign, but then think they get to have some power after their husbands get elected. I'm all for a woman president -- I despise the idea of first ladies, and she was one of the most politically involved ever.

Hillary got a lot of flak for stepping up and being more political, but when Judith Steinberg Dean (Howard's wife) stayed out of the campaign and made it clear she wouldn't leave her practice, she was criticized for not supporting her husband and doing her duties as a presidential candidate's spouse. Damned it you do, damned if you don't.

i didnt start to pay attention to mccain much until recently, so I dont know his past as much, but hes always seem to be more to be more pro life then pro choice...

re abortion..

besides the far left and far right, i'd wager that most people are neither firmly "pro life" or "pro choice" in the ways that people like to portray them...

or at least enough to make most polls that show that x% are "pro choice" or x amount are prolife" since it has somuch to do with how the question is phrased.

re hilary clinton in 08.

I know a lot of democrats who actively dislike hilary clinton, its definately prevalant in my age group (granted my age group sucks at voting)

if she won it would have more to do with a republican/bush backlash then any sort of popular mandate for her to be pres.

Such a shame, I had high hopes for him being a maverick.


I suppose that means you have the hots for the current resident Democratic maverick Russ Feingold?

Well, I think most Democrats believe Hillary can't win simply because there is a visceral hatred of her from most Republicans. As DeLay was overheard saying, "there's nothing worse than an opinionated woman", and I think that probably sums up what Republicans dislike most about her.

I guess that why Republicans hate Condi Rice . . .

O wait a minute - thats right, they want her to run for Prez.

a few republicans might.....

but a black, unmarried woman has a very low chance of becoming president

too much of the country would vote against her for one of those three reasons to make her a viable candidate for winning.

What's wrong with her being unmarried? Is the nation going to be embarrassed when she brings a beard to prestigous events?

(I know there's nothing wrong with her being black or a woman either)

a few republicans might.....

but a black, unmarried woman has a very low chance of becoming president

too much of the country would vote against her for one of those three reasons to make her a viable candidate for winning.

Too many Republicans won't vote for a black woman.

Too many Democrats won't vote for someone who supposedly makes Bush look like a hippy.

There's nothing wrong with her color, marital status or gender, it is people's perceptions and prejudices that would keep her from being a contender.

Plus it is absolutely no help of her being associated with the current travesty of a leader.

I think at this point if Winnie the Pooh was a Democrat he'd win in 2008. Oh wait! Pooh bear is a Euro.

Actually Pooh bear is Canadian. 'Winnie' comes from Winnipeg, the capital of Manitoba. :)

Too bad about being Canadian though. Winnie would make a good president compared to many others :elfbiggri

Hillary being the democratic nominee may be one of the few chances the Republicans would have at winning. If instead the democrats put up any halfway acceptable person--they would most likely win.


As many have hinted at here--a lot of people are looking at the middle of the road politicians. People are getting tired of the extremes. I think Mccain is making a mistake in trying to appeal to the radical right. I think the true power base of the country is somewhere between the far right and far left and if either political party would put forth a candidate in that area, they could get a lot of cross over votes.

Too bad about being Canadian though. Winnie would make a good president compared to many others :elfbiggriMickey Mouse usually gets at least a few write ins.

The economist had a good article on this.

http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=6826160 and
http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=6823528&CFID=80300341&CFTOKEN=7b551-352ad3b9-bb31-48d3-bf39-6e83ec0be91b

I liked this quote

Two years ago, this newspaper narrowly favoured Mr Kerry's incoherence over Mr Bush's incompetence (see article). Since then, Republican incompetence has exceeded even our worst fears. How depressing to report that Democratic incoherence has soared too. America deserves better.

What's wrong with her being unmarried? Is the nation going to be embarrassed when she brings a beard to prestigous events?

(I know there's nothing wrong with her being black or a woman either)

What's wrong with her being unmarried?

We've, as far as I can recall, never had a single president. I don't think America would elect a single President unless he/she was a widow/er.

Yeah... one of them was single. Ummm.... memory... failing. James Buchanan? There was also a president who was widowed in office I believe.

Now, lets have an athiest or agnostic for president. That one, I think, has never happened.

Wow! I'm good. http://americanhistory.about.com/library/fastfacts/blffpres15.htm

Canada had an eligible bachelor as prime minister once - Pierre Trudeau. A higher proportion of the nation's women voted for his party than men. His romantic endeavors were front page news although he was discreet and not an obvious womanizer. His dating of Barbra Streisand was the focus of much speculation.

He got married while in office.

I suppose that being PM would do wonders for ones sex appeal!

I don't think marriage status has much impact on the sex appeal of being the head of a developped nation =P

Yeah, seemed to not hinder Bill Clinton. :p

Hell, JFK slept with the sexiest woman alive at the time =D

Jackson was widowed IIRC