View Full Forums : Results from test?


Gimli fan
08-24-2002, 02:13 PM
I assume the final balancing will come based on the performance of the spells (As they tested the clerics new melee abilities).

We are the lab rats for the 3000 hp CH spell, shammys for the 2000 hp CH spell.
The both of us could get either one, or a higher one (the lower numbers just to prepare and balance other folks)
Or a lower one (doubtful).

Have any druids or shammys tried it on test and seen how they hold up to raids/exp/varoius tanks? If you are allowed to disclose.

Just the facts anyone?

The mechanics of the heal would be cool as well. For instance would the spell heal nothing if cast upon someone at 75% health.

Tolanin
08-24-2002, 03:08 PM
Shm would be seriously over powered with a 3k heal instant.... not like they cant already do a 3k heal for 400 mana though ;p

Hobbo
08-24-2002, 03:22 PM
It doesnt seem to me like these spells actually are available on test? Haven't heard any first hand reports yet at least... If they are someone please explain what the 75% exactly mean and what focus/AA effects are working with them.

Aorion
08-24-2002, 04:43 PM
There's reports on both the Cleric and Shaman boards.

From a shaman tester who used Cana on himself to test the spell, when he went down to 1% health he healed himself to 76%. When he went to 50% health it healed him to full. Not sure how the percentage thing works in, seems like it's basicaly a 3k heal either way. (assuming the shamn spell is no different from the Druid spell except in hp cap)

An uncofirmed report that the mana cost was lowered to 300 mana. This just from someone who heard that, not from any offical testers yet. Perhaps I shouldn't even add that part because of no offical word, but it would make since to me since this spell does 7500 less hp than CH.

Time wise and focus wise, no different from CH, which means nothing effects it. Your Spec Alt can decrease the mana cost, after it's cast, but that's about all.

I too would like to see some Druid testers feedback on this, as the Shamans aren't really putting this to use in situations, but just testing on themselves (as much as I read).

Then again, the info coming back from the Cleric testers are more on the new melee things. They say the new heals are too situational to really evaluate yet, so may have the same problem with this spell. With the weekend (raids) upon us, maybe more feedback will soon come

Hobbo
08-24-2002, 06:12 PM
Actually healing gift, and I think adept too, does work on clerics CH afaik, haven't you seen the clerics crit for 21k on CH? Not sure about imp healing focus...

Anyway if healing adept/gift works it should heal around 3200HP and crit 6400, even more if imp healing works too :)

brum15
08-24-2002, 07:28 PM
Complete heal never heals 10k hps unless of course your tank has 12k hps. anyone have one of those in your guild.

I start casting CH at roughly 2 bubbs of health, my average tank has 6k hps. He is down to roughly 1 bubb when I cast so he is down about 4800 hps. Only the most uber guilds will generally have many tanks with over 6k hps. A 4K heal with a shorter casting time would be alot more useful in the majority of circumstances.


If I had a tank with 10K hps in my guild (WOW) I still would not be healing 10k hps because about the second time I let him get that low before my heal hit, I would probably be looking for a different guild.

Aorion
08-24-2002, 07:35 PM
Sorry, only a 56 Cleric and haven't started on AA's yet, so tend to forget about them when thinking of how CH works.

No tanks yet where that would be an advantage for me, but with your spell a definite bonus.

Fayne Dethe
08-24-2002, 09:54 PM
I beg to differ, it is easy to get over 6k hitpoints with raid buffs on for melee classes at 60th - ac is capped at 1350 so once they hit that, melee should be going for hitpoints over AC (some of the new warriors in my guild arent equipped very well and they are all over 6k). Should be phrased only top uber guilds will have tanks over 7k hitpoints (even hybrids are reaching this), with some warriors reaching 7.5k+. That is why I think the druid percent heal (not CH, great phrasing verant! ;p) needs some tweaking. The cap needs to at least be raised to 4k, but really 5k will make it useful now and during Planes of Power (with every expansion all types of guilds from casual to totally uber have hitpoint inflation). To balance out raising the cap, Verant might have to lower the percent some. The other option is to give druids multiple percent heals as a choice - 75% with 3k cap at 54, then new one at 60 thats say 66% with 5k cap.

Miss Foxfyre
08-24-2002, 10:09 PM
Sorry, but I have to be a sourpuss and ask if we really want a 5k heal. Let's be realistic. We have no aggro reducer or invulnerability at the moment. Our defense is capped at 200. Our dodge blows at 75. Our AC cap is low. And most of us don't have 1300AC -- not that it matters anyway due to our cap.

Even with our currently proposed 75%/2925 heal, what about clerics in xp groups? I can't be totally for this change unless VI comes up with a way to give clerics other things to do in groups and solo.

brum15
08-24-2002, 10:31 PM
Still even at 7.5K cleric CH will still go off when tank has one bubble left so 7.5 x 80% = 6k A cleric with CH at level 60 would heal 6k. A druid with 66% heal and 5k max would heal 7.5 X 66%= 5K. As a cleric i would much prefer the 5K heal cause I dont have to wait til my tank is low on health to use it to get max benefit. Especially if it had a lower mana cost or quicker cast.

For guilds with lower top heavy tanks who dont have quite so uber tanks. lets figure in 6k. Cleric CH going off at 1 bubble 6 X 80% = 4800 Druid at 66% max 5K 6K X 66%= 4K

once again, for a difference in 800 hps or about 16% healing, I would rather have a spell that healed 4K irregardless of when I cast it not one that I have to wait until my tank is almost dead to cast to get that same efficiency.

Like I said dont assume that on a 7.5K tank a cleric with CH is healing 7.5K it just doesnt work that way. That is why druids having the additional healing in raids will be nice for us--the CH is not as super godly as it sounds--you never do an actual CH. Hopefully your tank still had some hps left or you cutting it that close sometime will result in dead MT followed shortly by the rest of the party or a timely evac.

A 5k Healing spell with a shorter casting time and less mana cost would usually be better for clerics also.

brum15
08-24-2002, 10:35 PM
Your dodge cap should be raised. Should be easier to dodge with just leather armor on. Plate armor classes should not have a higher dodge than druids with no restrictive armor.

Oldoaktree
08-24-2002, 11:44 PM
For me the most meaningful issue is still completely unknown.

Will there be new levels with PoP?

If there are, especially if it goes as high as 75 (I just don't believe it but who knows) then we may once again find that 3kish heals are too low. Remember how big a hp bump tanks get between levels 45 and 60, or 50 and 60 (for 10 new levels) or even 55 and 60 (for just 5).

If we suddenly see secondary melee or dmg dealers (the people druids normally heal on raids) getting more in the 7k or higher range on hp (not out of the question really with new gear coming into the game on top of possible new levels) then 3k is suddenly going to be a less than 50% 75% CH.

If the HP increases are more modest, then it is not such a big deal. But even now rangers in my guild are at about 5k hp and other melee types are the same or higher. (Ranger friend's hp's jump readily to mind).

Don't get me wrong this is a huge help, but I fear the hp cap is going to eliminate the scalability of 75% heals, which is one of its greatest virtues.

Time will tell of course.

Mikar
08-24-2002, 11:47 PM
Anyone counting on CH landing at 1 bubble of health when raiding as if thats the norm doesnt have a clue (and when you cite hp numbers with raid buffs you are talking about raiding)

The suggested druid heal with 75%/3k/400mana/10sec is already borderline overpowered when it comes to exp groups - so any improvement should be out of the question.

brum15
08-24-2002, 11:51 PM
I know it usually lands at more than 1.5 bubbles which makes it less effective. I start casting when tank hits 2 bubbs.

Mikar
08-25-2002, 12:03 AM
Brum

Do you really mean to say that you start CH at 2 bubbles during raids? If so I am perplexed as to what you think is a raid - because I know I dont often have the luxury to cast that late on raids. Heck, sometimes casting at 4 bubbles is risky business due to the spikiness of damage.

brum15
08-25-2002, 12:09 AM
That is on exp groups. Raiding usually means chain CH. You dont go off tanks bubbs as much as timing.

brum15
08-25-2002, 12:21 AM
I bite at raids though cause cable modem is unreliable so I usually wind up playing on a 56K modem. Not optimum for a chain CH cleric. My raiding has been limited to fear, growth, hate and factioning in Kael arena. Would hate to get guildies killed in NTOV due to my bad connection. Even in hate I find I have to face away from the action to get reliable performance.

Scirocco
08-25-2002, 05:16 AM
From a shaman tester who used Cana on himself to test the spell, when he went down to 1% health he healed himself to 76%. When he went to 50% health it healed him to full. Not sure how the percentage thing works in, seems like it's basicaly a 3k heal either way. (assuming the shamn spell is no different from the Druid spell except in hp cap)


From this we can tell that the new spells (1) do not heal the target TO 75% of their max. HP (otherwise the shaman would not have been able to heal himself to full), and (2) do not heal 75% of the missing HP.

Hence, the 75% heal heals the lowest of 2950 hp or 75% of the target's maximum HP.

Hobbo
08-25-2002, 06:39 AM
wow this thread managed to get derailed pretty fast into a "is the heal too big/small argument" =)

All I and I think the original poster wanted was hard facts from someone on test. And we got confirmed that the heal can indeed heal to full, thank you. Now just want to know if I should start spending my saved AA points in healing gift/adept heh.

Gimli fan
08-25-2002, 06:47 AM
Please try to stay on topic.

I will also note that I do know that there is often a CH rotation, the point is not always that a cleric lands a CH with ~1 bubble left...rather that when the clerics CH lands it will cover enough HP to mitigate average -to-above average damamage output burst from a raid mob.

Again, that would be one of the tests that would have to be performed.
A druid % Heal rotation (Must test it, don't get upset here please),
A half druid Heal, half cleric CH rotation,
A druid % Heal healing casters on a raid ( To long a cast?)
A druid hanging in these situations mana wise as the cleric does... that is abilitity to heal over time.

There may be others, or fewer...as I said I am not raid savy.
After all we are looking at battles that are 99 - 100% about:
taking/healing damage (clerics healing hasted tanks with as many hp as they can get, and one slow)

and

dealing damge (melee, nuke, and now maybe DOT's)



Also must test Druid in EXP groups.
Can a druid/shammy heal over time to replace a cleric as a healer with little to no added downtime and no added death risk.
In various zones.
In various group formations including duo.

Keep in mind that we are all supposed to be priests so let us loose on Norrath to do our thing.
In a game that is all about taking and healing HP it is quite important to get these changes correct lets get some tests going. Also defining what the goals are... make 0, 50%, 100% of clerics interchangable with druid/shammys?


I think I will start a thread on the new cleric abilities, as I would love the threads to stay on topic. Suffice it to say here I hope clerics are going to be happy and work with VI to get what they want in return but this thread is about the results / mechanics of these new spells. VI is really breaking the piggy bank to keep Clerics happy during this process which has yet to end, I know my Cleric is all over getting that boreing spell lineup a makeover.

Jigsaw
08-25-2002, 08:26 PM
i wasn't aware these spells were on test yet...

have they been implemented?

i thought they were just doing pre-test-testing.... or something like that..

Tolanin
08-25-2002, 09:20 PM
Dunno if the scrolls exist yet but there in the test spell files... so they are on test kinda like ancient spells tehy are there but no one has um ;p

Tuved Stormrunner
08-26-2002, 09:10 AM
Hmmm well I guess we shouldn't expect to get them any time soon then :( I was hoping for the patch this week but if players don't even have the spell on test, I'm not quite sure how it's being "tested". Is VI really serious about this or not? At this point I'd count it as we don't have it and we're not getting it imho.

Hobbo
08-26-2002, 01:09 PM
As was stated earlier in the thread the spells are indeed on test, at least the shaman version. Sold in either bazaar or nexus i think i read... Would be nice to hear from a druid that tested them though.

L1ndara
08-26-2002, 05:38 PM
For us the point DI is tripped ALWAYS happens on raids and the MT always takes AT LEAST one 5500+ CH from the CH chain and usually many 5K+, they also take at least 1 sub 1k CH and usually many, and often we lose MTs because they didn't get that 6+k heal. In order for druids to make up for missing clerics for tanks with 7k or less HPs you would need 2 druids per CH spot, you would need some additional mod rods for the 2nd druid, you may need additional support healing from shamans or whatever to cover the extra rod damage etc. If those druids are specced in evocation which few clerics are you're looking at 20% more mana right there.

PoP WILL raise the bar. If your MTs are 6k now they'll be 7k in 4 months, if they're 7k now they'll be 8k or more in 4 months and once you break 7k you no longer need 2 druids doing gimp CH to cover a cleric's spot, you're going to start needing THREE or at the very least shorten up the CH chain so the clerics cover the extra mana cost with a tighter chain.

And really I don't see needing 2 druids or 3 shamans per missing cleric to really be helpful. Most guilds don't raid with more than 2 or 3 druids or have 3 spare shaman so at best you're looking at being able to do a raid that requires 5 clerics (+ canni rods) with only 4 if all your druids show up AND those druids weren't needed to heal AE damage or something to start with. Hmmm.

Panamah
08-26-2002, 06:59 PM
If you look at the damage output of various mobs you have to be spamming heals every few seconds. I'd guess the average raid heal does 2-3k hits. If a tank is getting low enough to go berserk you're not healing fast enough, on most raids.

I'm reasonably sure the new druid heal will work on the cheal line. Congrats! /snicker

Falamil Woodhelven
08-27-2002, 05:48 AM
I think the druid 'CH' (what a stupid name!) COULD be made to work in a CH chain, but adaptations would be necessary.


It's not the AVERAGE heal that makes a CH chain work. It's the CH that lands after a dmage spike that almost killed your MT.

Make a run on a flurry drak in NToV. I will be very surprised if you can go two of those battles without seeing "MT goes into a berserker frenzy!". When a CH lands on that tank, full health. When the new druid spell lands on that smae tank, half health, maybe. If the next guy in the chain catches a fizzle, you've got a dead tank and aggro bounce.

Someone said it earlier. You don't set CH rotations based on average damage. You set them based on max damage per round.

Arkin Ryndale
08-27-2002, 06:16 AM
I think the best point here is that tactics need to be changed to use this new druid power on raids. I would say right now it probably takes 4-5 druids healing to cover 1 cleric based on the math I have seen before. In a quickly formed VS raid in KC druid and shammy on the MA heal rotation made all the difference. It was hardly efficient, but it got the job done. With the 3k heal it may only take 1-2 druids on the rotation to help the clerics. Most rotations I see now are generally set on conservative intervals, so putting a druid on rotation you might not even notice. You can always think of scenarios that a heal rotation will fail. Even a cleric rotation can fail.

Anyway it is not too hard to do the math on this. Adjectives only go so far (i.e. our heal is better/crappy/risky/etc.). If you really want to understand this, get our your spreadsheet and plug in some numbers. Do the HP moved per minute through various assumptions of tank max HP.

Tuved Stormrunner
08-27-2002, 08:36 AM
Interesting point l1ndara. With the mudflation in PoP our new balancing heal will likely in the end be no better than NT was pre POP. We'll be right back where we started.

Bern Fizzlesticks
08-27-2002, 09:28 AM
From what I saw at GenCon the raid level mobs hit like a ton of bricks. Veeshan was tripling up to 1264 (until they turned off the damage once they saw we were discussing damage). When I first saw the new heals getting tested my first thought was they were going to need that kind of thing just to make new encounters work. I am willing to bet that cap is going to be messed with after PoP.

Fayne Dethe
08-27-2002, 09:59 AM
I agree totally L1ndara. This spell does not let you replace any clerics in CH on main cycle as it takes up far more resources than any benefits you gain. Let's say instead, you assign druids to heal rampage tank, this new percent heal wont be enough to keep him alive, it's far more efficient to have 1 cleric CH and 2 or so druids fast healing (and using 0 rods) on rampage tank. If you only used druids with this new "CH" on rampage tank, you'd have to do a fast cycle to make sure he stays alive from any big rampages as 3k isnt much leeway and end up using alot of rods. This problem will only be compounded in PoP where mobs will be hitting for 1200-1300+.

Quelm
08-27-2002, 10:00 AM
Folks are saying the new heal may turn out to be useless. Maybe Druid CH won't fit in exactly where Cleric CH does. I still think it'll be a *huge* boost to druid healing, based on the hps healed / mana.

Would you like to cast NT for 978 hps for 400 mana, or DCH for 2950 hps for 400 mana? Rampage tanks, rod factories, mixed groups with a few folks taking heavy damage, and even full groups sustaining ae damage are all places to use it. I'd love to have it when a 5k hp monk flops at my feet at 20 life after a pull. 7.4 hps / mana before specialization and SCM. That's a significant increase.

A corresponding increase in nuking efficiency would be a nuke with a 10.8 damage to mana ratio: or, 3780 base damage for 350 mana. We could say, "yeah, but 1 druid still couldn't sub for a wizard on a manaburn crew" or, "I'll hit my aggro limit early, so this spell is useless" but we'd be ignoring the power of the spell.

-Quelm

L1ndara
08-27-2002, 11:38 AM
"Would you like to cast NT for 978 hps for 400 mana, or DCH for 2950 hps for 400 mana? Rampage tanks, rod factories, mixed groups with a few folks taking heavy damage, and even full groups sustaining ae damage are all places to use it. I'd love to have it when a 5k hp monk flops at my feet at 20 life after a pull. 7.4 hps / mana before specialization and SCM. That's a significant increase. "

Um... and that 5k monk would then need a second GCH to get to full, the druid STILL won't be healing him, the cleric will.

"A corresponding increase in nuking efficiency would be a nuke with a 10.8 damage to mana ratio: or, 3780 base damage for 350 mana. We could say, "yeah, but 1 druid still couldn't sub for a wizard on a manaburn crew" or, "I'll hit my aggro limit early, so this spell is useless" but we'd be ignoring the power of the spell."

Huh? This ignores of course the fact that every class is within 50% of wizards for nuking and many are within 20%, but no one else comes even remotely close to clerics for healing if you don't count slow. GCH takes druids up to maybe 50% of a cleric on raids, maybe close to 90% off them.

It's actually somewhat reminiscent of giving clerics Judgement. Although clerics were much better nukers before it than druids are healers.

Really, clerics get BAotR at 58 making our 59/60 cabbage/glades useless for them, they get major nuke upgrade at 56! taking them to about 80% of a 60 druid's nuke, they're getting even MORE damage output upgrades and mana. Sorry, but any cleric that has complaints about druids getting CH can shut the @#%$ up and go back to sticking hampsters up their @#%$.

Quelm
08-27-2002, 12:38 PM
Hmm, I'm just saying there are a ton of uses for a 7.4 hps/mana heal, even if it isn't a full-fledged Complete Heal. The nuking example isn't one about balance, it was meant to illustrate the relative increase in mana efficiency. Saying, "Oh, it won't be used because it isn't as good as {complete heal, manaburn}" doesn't make sense to me.

As for the monk, who is to say that a cleric will heal? Sure, Complete Heal would finish the job, but a druid could get the monk back in action almost as well.

Gimli fan
08-27-2002, 08:24 PM
I think the difference in opinion is based on the goal of this change.

Quelm what they are saying is that while it is unarguably a boost in healing power is it sufficient to acheive the goals of these changes. Currently its one spell and to many seems a bit underpowered for the job it may be intended for. (Course we are really clueless to the %, cap, mana, and time of the spell so people are using the announced one as a baseline. Keep in mind it could be lower or higher...I highly doubt they could hit it right on before testing.)

It is not completely clear what the goal is. To some degree it must involve making the priest classes relativly interchangable. It has been stated by Verant that it should/may/will/whatever reduce the need for a depence on X number of clerics at a raid.

Its gonna have to hit some of the goals and I wish they would be more clear about them, before it comes out of test.