Perhaps this new druid heal on test is actually just a bone to throw at druids while they make clerics into soloable tanks with a mana regen of 20 per tick. Perhaps its actually us who will be squeezed out of exp group when all these changes go live and not clerics. I'm not sure how excited I actually am about a 3k 400 manna heal that is only 3k for 400 manna if you time the cast just perfectly. It's more often than not going to be a 1 or 2k for 400 manna heal and that's not much of an upgrade. You really need to look at some of the changes they have in line for clerics. I'm not sure that someone would want a druid over a cleric after all this goes live. We may find our role permenatly as raid backup healer and quadder.

How hard is it to time 3k hp heal on a 5-6k tank? Unless he's going down and going down fast you just cast it when he has 40-50% of his hp. Then you do 3k. Not really a "C"H, but a damn nice heal.

Perhaps its actually us who will be squeezed out of exp group when all these changes go live and not clerics.

They dont need to make any changes to do that!


The new heals will really be nice (I really think they will go live, after Rich commented on em) but they made a big mistake calling it DRUID CH. I dont care that it didnt have its final name, but putting CH was bad bad bad.

Funny tuved, I was thinking the same thing.

Standing mana regen. Sweet.

Racmoor

Yeah, when I saw Y5, I assumed it was a very nice spell for Clerics to use when soloing, as I assumed it would not stack with KEI. Then they made it not stack with BAotR, which I though t was stupid, but figured, ok they meant it to be on KEI's line and goofed. Well, now it stacks with both. If a Cleric is good with the button, he gets 7-9 mana/tick, solo, grouping, or on raids. Possibly this will be fixed, but we'll see. It may turn out that Druids are alone as the only priest class without excellent standing regen (Can5 still much better than Y5, but not so sure about Can4).

I think your concerns are basically unfounded when the following statement was made...

"All priests should offer a similar level of value in solo, group, and raid situations, and they won't be considered balanced until this is true." Rich Waters

Hehe easier said than done but I do hope you're right and Rich was sincere. I didn't post this as a real concern but just a crazy thought. Figured I'd see what the ideas were.

I think the huge increase in cleric mana regen is still potentially unbalancing. I am all for (110% if it were possible) making clerics more interesting to play. It is not good for the game that so many are 2box accounts (same as druid port hos). And the best way to ge more good clerics out there is to make the class rewarding.

I think the intention is to make it possible for clerics to melee while still getting mana back so they can contribute more. However, this is a risky path imho since it will increase clerics Agro (and you don't want them getting agro still) and again, I think it is a bigger net gain in power for clerics than is being looked at with the druid heal. THis game, for casters, all comes down to how full that mana bar is and this is a HUGE change.

More power to them if they get it but god think of a cleric with FT15, a few other items that stack similar abilities, the AAXP, and Yaulp V on.

Only question really is what is the duration of Yaulp 5. THe earlier Yaulp spells were kind of short duration if I remember, so this is the kind of thing you could cast when you won't get a chance to sit and med, and it would still let you stand in for a few rounds of melee.

The casting time is 0.5 seconds - so it is not taking away much from sitting and medding. It lasts for 4 ticks, but will last for 6 ticks with SCRM. 18 second recast.

If Yaulp 5 costs 25 mana and gains 10 extra mana per tick, I wonder if cleric will be able to cast it and sit to gain even more mana.

Stand, Yaulp, Sit, rinse, repeat, sorta like a canni spell.

Sildan

They would...



Yaulp V

Slot Description
1: Increase ATK by 50
3: Increase DEX by 75
4: Decrease Stamina Loss by 10
5: Increase Attack Speed by 25%
6: Increase Mana by 10 per tick


Mana: 10 Skill: Abjuration
Casting Time: 0.5 Recast Time: 18
Fizzle Time: 2.25 Resist: N/A
Range: 0 Location: Any
Time of Day: Any Target Type: Self
Spell Type: Beneficial Source: Test 08/24


Classes: CLR/56
Duration: 4 ticks


Cast on you: You feel a surge of strength as you let forth a mighty yaulp.
Cast on other: Someone lets loose a mighty yaulp..
Wears off: Your surge of strength fades.




EDIT: It was just changed a few hours ago from 50 mana to 10 mana according to LUCY, so obviously they are still working on this spell...

They also changed it to where it doesn't work sitting down. Think it will changed it abit more over the next few days to find a balance

Really those cleric things are happening so late as to be moot. No cleric is going to suddenly switch gears at 58 and say,

"screw you guys and grouping, me and my cleric buddy are going to go and solo an entrance mob in cazic!"

He's going to do the same thing he always has, while making jokes about the things verant gave him. We are going to do the same thing we've always done, while having a better heal for some situations.

""All priests should offer a similar level of value in solo, group, and raid situations, and they won't be considered balanced until this is true." Rich Waters"

The funny thing is that statement is impossible, unless EQ changes to a point where its a totally different game that I don't want to play. A cleric will never be able to solo like I do, nor should it be able to. I will never be as wanted in groups for healing, in the same way the cleric is nor should I be.
There is something about all this stuff and things people say on this board that I'm just not getting:

I picked my class because I KNEW what it is. So I was never surprised or complaining when my class turned out to be what I thought it was, well and actually a lot more. I expected to be that person out in rags in the wilderness, sometimes grouping but often on it alone. I don't get knowing what we are for a long time, then wanting to be something else when AA and AOE groups pop up. We already ate our cake.

"screw you guys and grouping, me and my cleric buddy are going to go and solo an entrance mob in cazic!"


No, but it might give them a chance to do what other LFG 60s do, solo in FG. Which I doubt would really happen, LFG 60 Clerics are about as common as seeing Kraken in Lake Rathe.

I don't think the changes they made to clerics are that out of bounds. You have to click the spell every 24 seconds to get the regen and at least one of the ticks is regening the cost of the spell.

I think it is a good change. It would seem to make playing a cleric more interesting and not totally unbalance things. If it does unbalance I have faith it will get corrected.

Give the changes some time before going off to far on what effect they will have on the game.

Remember the clerics fear that they are going to have problems getting groups due to druids getting their spots (no, it won't happen with just this spell but clerics have been getting more problems getting in groups than ever before).

This is meant to be something that lets them contribute more in groups, and fall back on soloing when they need to. Not solo instead of group, but solo if they can't group.

Those clerics you mentioned will certainly say "lets go duo in CT rather than sit on our butts hoping for a group".

But the truth is, people still will take a cleric over a druid for agroup because they heal vastly more efficiently than we do and have the most important security of all ... rez.

I am thrilled with our new spell, but I think all the sturm and drang about the consequences for clerics are vastly, vastly overstated.

Aandaie, that was by far the best post I have seen regarding us druids and our spells/abilities.

I'll admit that I jumped on the "upgrade druid" bandwagon as fast and as hard as anyone when I first read about it...mostly because of class envy. Being able to get 1000 mana back every 3 minutes almost made me choke when luclin was released and I was researching all the AA skills.

But I realize now that I created and played this druid for so long because I enjoyed not having to rely on others AT ALL to gain experience and levels, and I was one of two classes who could freely move about different parts of Norrath and explore.

I admit that I am disheartened when I am on a raid and I can only heal INT casters for somewhat between 1 and 2 bubbles of health for 400m, when they expect me to keep them alive.
But take a look around: the mages are in open ground flipping away at their rods so they didnt waste a few full mana bars casting them; shamans are chain casting slow and trying to live through the first few moments of the fight; enchanters are chain casting tash; clerics are chain casting CH .... on and on it goes.

This is where I find myself most of the time when I play...either chain casting nukes/heals depending on the fight. There really isnt much more to it than that. Time it right, don't aggro, do some damage, keep this guy alive, etc etc etc. A raid is a raid, and I do what I can do to make it smoother.

The part that I enjoy the most about logging online is when I have a Non-Raid day and I can move to / solo / get decent exp / have fun in almost EVERY zone in the game. And when I feel the need to get some loot, or be in more intimate contact with other players other than /tells and /guildchat, I send tells and throw up my LFG tag just like everyone else and try to get myself into a group.

Yes I have class envy (damn Can5, damn necro group heal..etc), and I see that druids are falling farther behind other classes in class upgrades with every expansion, but I will always love playing my druid for his versatility, solo-ability, ports, and the best pet in the game.

Even if these new heals go live and get stuck somewhere in the back of my spellbook while clerics get a shaman-like standing mana regen spell and melee-ability to make a paladin nervous, the druid will stay as my main.

Sorry for the longwinded post, as I don't post often.

Venerable Kallamon Ragingwind
Heirophant of The Nameless
Euphoria

The funny thing is that statement is impossible, unless EQ changes to a point where its a totally different game that I don't want to play. A cleric will never be able to solo like I do, nor should it be able to. I will never be as wanted in groups for healing, in the same way the cleric is nor should I be.
There is something about all this stuff and things people say on this board that I'm just not getting:
You say it's impossible because you're a game developer who knows better than Jahaar and others on the team? I'd say that given enough time and resources, they should be able to achieve some sort of balance. And to be blunt, since when do you define who should do what better? Second, you seem to have mistaken "similar value" for "equality." No one said all priests should be EQUAL or IDENTICAL in those areas of play, so where you got the idea of clerics even possibly soloing AS WELL AS druids after priest balancing is beyond me.

Third, shamans are the model of priest balance; they're excellent at soloing, highly desirable for groups, and are an integral part of raiding guilds. I know because I have an oracle who has no class weaknesses except for certain spell drops and alchemy (big deal, alchemy!). Why shouldn't the EQ Live team try to get clerics and druids more in line with shamans? Explain.


I picked my class because I KNEW what it is. So I was never surprised or complaining when my class turned out to be what I thought it was, well and actually a lot more. I expected to be that person out in rags in the wilderness, sometimes grouping but often on it alone. I don't get knowing what we are for a long time, then wanting to be something else when AA and AOE groups pop up. We already ate our cake.
Sorry, but here you are using your own limited experience as a basis to judge the class experience in its totality when many like Sobe, Scirocco, Lotusfly, Trevize, and others were leveling their druids to 60 before any roles were set in stone; they were at the forefront of the evolution of the class AND of the transitional game, and just happen to play druids as mains to this day despite the fact that the class design didn't evolve beyond a certain point whereas other classes and the game DID. Even when I created my first characters -- a bard, a druid, and a rogue -- I had little knowledge of what the classes would become TWO YEARS LATER because there was no two years later in June 1999. Back then I wasn't even sure if EQ would still be around in 2002. Likewise, many others who were leveling up as the game was continuing to evolve couldn't predict all the changes that have happened since 1999.

To borrow from Jahaar's own words:
The game has grown and shifted enormously from when it was initially released, and the role of each class has changed in many ways. Some classes have worked out fairly well, some have seen significant changes in the past, and certainly a few need some meaningful alterations to fit into present-day EverQuest. We're well aware that not all classes have grown equally over time. When the game was originally designed, no classes needed to have things like a defining raid role, as frequent raiding simply didn't exist in the original view of the game. Over time, many new factors have popped up and were retroactively squeezed into class balance, with varying degrees of success. It's our goal that all classes have a vital role, scale well with other members of their class, and remains desirable in many situations. Attaining and keeping that balance with so many classes and play-styles is a slow process to get right. It's better for everyone involved if we take the time to correctly balance and test before moving to live servers, as it causes tremendous amounts of frustration to players when we need to change an item or ability they already are using.



Kallamon said...
but I will always love playing my druid for his versatility, solo-ability, ports, and the best pet in the game.
Our pet was a novelty item that Poe threw out there for us. ;) As for loving our druids, I have not seen more dedicated druid players than the regular posters and old timers here -- that goes for Sobe, Lotusfly, Scirocco, even Tudamorf (he's back), and more. Honestly, I can only speak for myself, but I wouldn't be here if I didn't give a damn. Oh, I care intensely about what happens to this class.

"Gee.. I guess that Manaburn/CH thread did do druids some good."

Yes, it did.

I think your concerns are basically unfounded when the following statement was made...

"All priests should offer a similar level of value in solo, group, and raid situations, and they won't be considered balanced until this is true." Rich Waters[/quote}

Heh, right. So what are shamans going to lose, slow, torpor and canni? Malo, slow and torpor? Canni, malo and torpor?

75% slow is... dear god what the were they t

Interesting

only thing that bothers me about Y5 is that clerics get that and baotr before druids get potc or masks.. at level 58 clerics can regen mana self buffed 16 (?) per tick faster than a druid, in indoor (and many outdoor) zones

only thing that bothers me about Y5 is that clerics get that and baotr before druids get potc or masks.. at level 58 clerics can regen mana self buffed 16 (?) per tick faster than a druid, in indoor (and many outdoor) zones

And look at Judgement. Druid spells post 50 are pretty gimpy for the most part.

Does Y5 work on a horse?

I ask mainly cause I'm playing with stoopid p-quizes again.

Equating self ONLY mana-regen to a heal that will allow Druids even greater entry into groups? I dont get it.

Problem is what are Clerics supposed to do with the increase in mana? We dont need it for heals really and judgement is ineffecient, long casting, magic based, heavily resisted, and has a overly long recast time.

Healing is a cleric's Blessing and his Bane at the same time. Due to it we have been told REPEATEDLY not to do anything else. Cant stand up and melee, dont bother nuking, and heal me already. A clerics strengths arise from how focused our abilties are, a druids strengths arise from the vast array of things they are able to do.

Yes I agree a raid heal was needed. I dont agree with no change in cleric offensive capabilities to keep pace with changes to other Priests' defense in relation to Clerics.

Look at Yaulp5 in its entirety. Look at it versus siting regen. Look at the intent of Yaulp5, which is to allow Clerics to contribute damage via melee (I got to wonder who thought THAT one up) while not endangering their group by slowing down mana-regen. In essence the Devs have vetoed increasing Cleric spell changes or upgrades and are trying a melee route to increase cleric damage output. Like I want to ditch a Hammer that is 13/20 with 18ac, Stamina, 100HPs and Mana for a summoned one that procs.

I strongly suggest anyone perusing this thread check out the stickied post by Candarie at the top of the EQcleric boards. She has been a strong proponent of wait and see and evaluating the spells we recieved on their own merit versus the Druid heal upgrade. I doubt you will find her view of what Clerics get as positive. She is a test Cleric so she has direct experience of what shes speaking about.

The Druid changes have been very focused based mostly around what you petitioned for it looks like. Cleric changes look very hastily thrown together and work at odds with existing Clerical roles and gear. Its a problem and honestly I dont think the Devs know what to do to make the equation work so both classes are at least nominally happy with the upcoming changes.

I simply CANNOT see how some of you arent happy with a spell that heals at the effeciency this one does versus your current reportiore, it just baffles me. Its a GOOD spell and will help your functionality in raids and in groups. The aid to groups I argue will be much greater.


Belkram Marrwolf of Bristlebane

/nod Belkram


Bah, it was late and is now corrected =)

*Sigh* no one spells my name right. /grin


Belkram Marrwolf

Problem is what are Clerics supposed to do with the increase in mana? We dont need it for heals really and judgement is ineffecient, long casting, magic based, heavily resisted, and has a overly long recast time.

The point is it's standing mana. I was just playing my cleric in a group in Acrylia where I spent most of my time wacking away for over a hundred damage every couple seconds, pausing only to toss nukes which didn't really help my DPS all that much or an occasional CH or if I was approaching FM a less efficient heal. Get a decent 2h weapon (or use the proc one if it's any good) a decent haste item and with a haster in the party you'll really not doing too badly for damage but with BAotR and Yaulp5 you'll have as much as an extra 110 mana per minute to spend over, say, a paladin. Soloing though I'd be a little leery unless you had great equipment.

I simply CANNOT see how some of you arent happy with a spell that heals at the effeciency this one does versus your current reportiore, it just baffles me. Its a GOOD spell and will help your functionality in raids and in groups. The aid to groups I argue will be much greater.

The VI guys came and said pretty much what they shoulda said. Priests should be on equal footing for desirability and usefulness, and that clerics are a choke point for raids. Now, clearly they're not going to make us all as good as shamans who for some reason they keep improving (like WTF is up with that) but this gimp CH while making druids able healers in groups finally, and mediocre to acceptable on raids (currently but I doubt it will remain true with PoP) it really does nothing to put druids on an equal footing. You still need just as many clerics for the CH chain, and you could just as easily give a flying @#%$ if druids showed up to a raid at all or not but no clerics and no raid. At least magicians and enchanters can for the most part cover a complete lack of shaman. Sure it's a better spell than what we had, hell so was Nature's Recovery, but the fact of the matter is, it's still a complete gimp spell compared to what else is out there. At least VI had the sense to stick it at 54 instead of pretending it was an actual spell and shoveling it at 60 like they did with Nature's Recovery.

Who knows, sometimes VI's first drafts are way off. Remember the first draft of the shaman spells where they had fast cast, high effiency nukes that woulda totally put wizards out of buisness?

The new heal is very nice, but still very misdirected. It is going to be great in groups.

Here is the problem. VI has stated they wantted to make Clerics less of a required class on raids. There are only 2 ways to do that. Give another class (or 2) CH or take CH away from Clerics and retune. The Shaman version of "CH" is wholly inadequate to fill in. The Druid version is close for some guilds and inadequate for top end guilds. That is the state of things today. After PoP inflation, I suspect the Druid "CH" will be inadequate for most situations once again. To get rid of the Cleric raid monopoly, the Druid and/or Shaman heal has to be CH, not be a partial CH. The problem is (from a having fun perspective), if Druids were given CH and Clerics those other spells, Druids would all be stuck in the rotation, as Clerics make far far far greater secondary healers than Druids (I think as things stand now, Clerics and Druids are close to each other in backup healing ability).

The other side of the problem is Druid raid desirability. Currently, most druids (except those that only nuke), take the "secondary healer" role. Well, these new changes on the whole have only further made Clerics the better choice for backup healer on raids. In an AE situation, this new heal was almost meaningless for Druids, as it will take 60 seconds and apx 2000 mana (this can go up or down, depending on spec, focus and AA) to heal 3k HP on each group member. The reality is, however, you don't have that time. If you wait until the heal becomes effecient on the first member, other group members will be dead. CB will remain the spell Druids have to use in AE encounters, and we all know that is insufficient. Now, if the AE encounter involves a wall, well, frankly, even our current heals are sufficient to keep the right group up. If it is not an AE encounter, typically, Druids nuke. The new heal will help allow a druid or two to be assigned to watching for rampage (and stupid melee that get infront and take riposts) damage.

Overall, then, I suspect that with all the new healing changes taken together, Druids have become even a better choice for groups than they already were over a Cleric. However, in raids, I think we have generally taken a step backwards.

From my own playing perspective, I would rather have seen Druids get a faster casting large direct heal and some form of group heal, or fast group HoT. Those changes would have let us do a much better job at the job we have now - backup healing. It would, however, do nothing to ease the Cleric bottleneck problem. The only way to do that is to give us (and/or Shaman) CH. This is not a particularly exciting thing I would look forward to, however, since if Druids had CH and Clerics got those Ethrial heals, Druids would automactically be put in the CH rotation, and Clerics moved to the much more fun role of backup healing.

Yeah, I agree about making it CH. Most clerics would, imo.

If you're going to get a heal that enables you to be main healer in an XP group - as this spell certainly will - then for god's sake why can't you get a heal that lets you take your turn in the mind-numbing tedium of the CH rotation with the rest of us ?

Yaulp V lets the cleric have faster mana regen than the druid. (A lot of the mana regen it gives has to be balanced against the casting cost, do look at it closely before making extreme claims.)

However, shamans have canni and necromancers have lich. So apart from paladins, the other healing classes have faster mana regen than either of us.

Ask yourself whether it's justified that clerics come in for all this druidic anger.

Now, clearly they're not going to make us all as good as shamans who for some reason they keep improving (like WTF is up with that) but this gimp CH while making druids able healers in groups finally, and mediocre to acceptable on raids (currently but I doubt it will remain true with PoP) it really does nothing to put druids on an equal footing.

I must have missed that memo.

Ask yourself whether it's justified that clerics come in for all this druidic anger.

Clerics get "druidic anger" really only for one reason. Clerics have had legitimate complaints for a long time. Oddly, even today, however, rather than fight for what is right, Clerics fight not only for what they should be fighting for (expanded versatility on raids and the ability to solo), but also fight tooth and nail against any other class getting any healing improvements AND consistently complain that they are nerfed, when the things being nerfed are plainly broken (the Donals and Velious BP nerfs). Clerics remain one of the few classes whose boards call for nerf on other classes or fight against improvements to other classes.

What all of you should have been doing long ago was (as many of you are now doing) acknowledging that VI screwed up the game with CH. You should have been promoting the idea of either removing it or getting it to other classes. Instead, what our community saw anyway, was the Cleric boards decrying the end of the world when Druids were given CB and NT.

If you want people to not be upset with you, don't ask for nerfs to other classes and don't cry about other classes getting gains. (This should be good advice for anyone, but it is especially true of the one class the entire game revolves around).

This thread here contains several druids calling for a nerf of Yaulp V. People in glass houses...

Pardon me but Im calling that line of bull exactly what it is : Bull. I go to EQCleric almost daily and I dont see Clerics calling for nerfs on other classes. I see the occasional oddball doing that but I see that on this site too. Doesnt mean "Clerics" are doing it or "Druids" are doing it.

Cleric anger stems from the fact that Verant hasn't addressed legitimate cleric concerns that have been stated for over a year. We wanted a route OUT of the healing box. There needed to be a way or route to allow a cleric to be more multifacted and not sacrifice group safety. Well, now you have groups that dont need to have a Cleric medding 24/7 but we still dont have what we asked for over a year ago (multiple times and multiple ways).

Cleric concerns have NEVER been addressed first, things we are wondering about get looked at after or even a post thought to other things. The change in post 50 healing spells and fizzling was looked at after Druids complained but we had been asking about it from the outset. MoK overnerf; if its not as effecient as our least efficient heal its not worth casting. Druid Healing changes (Sup Heal moved, Natures Touch and Chloroblast added). Adding USEFUL effects to our Velious BPs. Bards get create food and water removed from Kunark armor and it appears on Cleric VELIOUS Armor....what the hell??? Our nukes get LESS mana effecient as they go up in level(was looked at and changed in the case of Judgement but its not even 2/3 as effecient as Moonfire). Every offensive spell we have is magic based. Invisibility. See Invisible. RAGEFIRE. The "solution" to ragefire was to make him a contested, non-triggered spawn, with a SLOWER spawning rate. Remember when druids had to camp out in Tim Deep for Faye? Yeah, thats what the Cleric epic is now. Only its in a zone that can be ported into so its bloody GUARANTEED to get contested in some form or another unless you keep the entire raid there for 1 week straight. I love my class. I like its strengths and weaknesses. What I cannot stomach is our strengths being eroded and anything that COULD or MIGHT allow versatility being ignored, nerfed or discarded.

Clerics biggest strength and the thing we bring the most to groups are Healing and Buffing. The buffing makes the CH-healing more efficient. Raid buffing consists of stacking for maximum HPs and AC so POTC or POTG gets used Marzins Mark and an AC buff. Group buffing is what is sufficient for the task, you dont NEED the best buffs when good enough will do for the danger involved. Same for healing. You dont NEED the best when you only heal every 2nd or 3rd pull. Having to stop pulls and med up if mana gets low is something Clerics used to ALWAYS have to do back when Norrath was a more dangerous place to be in.

To shorten up what Im driving at....Clerics were told over and over that what we had was good enough and we werent GETTING any improvements to our versatility. Knowing that this is so wouldnt you protect what was getting you groups and raid desireability like it was the family jewels? If you KNOW you wont get anything better and you see other classes getting some of the things that allow you to group (your only effecient option), you would scream bloody murder too.

Yes, I know clerics are now getting changes to our damage output. But if Melee is the answer I dare the Devs to state the question. Priest Melee is a joke and everyone knows it, except apparently the people that do priest balancing. Cleric DPS still wont approach any melee class and it wont approach that of a well played nuking class either.

People keep saying "just wait there is more coming". Ive been waiting for a long time. I have the sinking feeling that this is all they are going to do because they just dont know what else TO do.


Belkram

Y5 is not in game yet. It is on test, and folks are commenting on it as it changes. If it goes in game and druids start a thread bitching about how Clerics got Y5, then you can tell me they are calling for a nerf. It will go live in some form and Druids will not call for its nerfing.

It is not bull, Belk. I am a regular reader of eqclerics as well (along with most class boards, as they are often a better source of ideas and changes than the generic news sites and forums). It is absolutly what happened with the addition of CB and NT. There was a very large outcry on the Cleric boards, and not just from some isolated people, at that time that Druids and Shaman were suddenly going to replace clerics everywhere. Clerics have always been protective of their monopoly on healing in exclusion of all else. The two best examples of this are the aformentioned doomsaying when CB and NT were added and the, still popular, decrying of the Donals nerf. This is still seen today, when "Druid CH" was added on the test database. An EQClerics thread a mile long with countless Clerics bitching about Druids getting a new heal. Those threads were not suggestions on how to make the heal different, they were just whinefests about how Clerics were ruined, better be getting compensation, and many many "last straw" posts from people saying they would quit if the change went live. Again, patently absurd to think that the "Druid CH" will replace the Cleric healing monopoly, but all the Cleric boards were filled with "this better not go live" - not over a Cleric nerf, but over a minor Druid healing gain.

You ask what I would do if my class were constantly told "you have enough"? Well, I think I would figure out why they were saying that (if you still have not figured that out - it is because the game revolves around your level 39 spell) and argue that VI change that. Possibly (but probably not, since VI was a very different VI then than it is today), had Clerics been arguing that CH was broken and needed to be removed, instead of bitching about any healing upgrade any non-cleric class got (This is not an anti-druid sentiment only from eqclerics - you all whined when Palys got Res and better healing and even when Necromancers got their res), maybe we would not be where we are today.

If you want, feel free to link to even one thread on EQClerics where the community is discussing a new healing upgrade for Druids in the past where the members of that community calling for a nerf or speaking in opposition to the proposed change do not outnumber those suggesting the idea is a good one. You will not find one.

Again the 3rd to the last paragraph.

We werent getting any versatility or nuking upgrades.
Other classes were closing the gap on healing with us.
Healing was our route to getting a group.
We cannot earn exp efficiently Solo.

We protect our healing advantage. Its what we offer to groups. Safety. The buffs simply magnify the efficiency of CH.

Verant is not going to retune substantial portions of their game engine. They are not. I would gladly shuck off CH and replace it with gradually increasing heals from 39 to 60 culminating in a 5 to 6k heal but the problem is that the Devs arent going to retune huge portions of the game at this point and time.

The game doesnt solely revolve around CH anymore though! Seen Manaburn wizards going around downing and Kunark Dragons lately? How about 12 people going down and laying waste to the King and Queen in Chardok? How about 24 people offing Dain? How about 30 people offing AOW? Dire Charm ? Lifeburn? And now DoT stacking which will further change the damage end of the equation.

Damage has increased, Hit points have increased, damage mitigation has increased, agro control has increased, Aexp abilities allowing people to do things that had never before been possible and always with fewer and fewer people.
Again I agree that you needed a greater healing capacity for raids. MOST Clerics agreed with this sentiment. We wanted some way to prevent it from being an everyday heal used for grinding experience. We wanted something to counter-balance the increase in healing, via a downside to the spell or an increase in our abilities to compensate.

As far as the Ressurection line.....Verant had stated several times that that line of spells would not be given to other classes. It was. We were lied to. Hence the outrage. Id have to look long and hard but I can probably find the quote saying where it would not happen. Hell, in my opinion, if a paladin can get up to level 59, they DESERVE that spell, they earned it. The Necro rez has a large downside and isnt even in the same boat, its nice but it will cost ya, basically.

This is the fourth upgrade to Druid healing; Chloroblast and Natures Touch, Superior Heal moved below 50, Fizzle rate changed post 50 (Clerics also shared on this one) and now this one. All of these upgrades have occurred outside of regular increases in spell lists due to expansions.

Now Im going to ask because Im seriously wondering.....if clerics are so "overpowered" why arent more people playing them?


Belkram

Pardon me but Im calling that line of bull exactly what it is : Bull. I go to EQCleric almost daily and I dont see Clerics calling for nerfs on other classes. I see the occasional oddball doing that but I see that on this site too. Doesnt mean "Clerics" are doing it or "Druids" are doing it.

Many, maybe most, are opposed to the change. Most druids are happy clerics are getting better heals and while confused why clerics are becoming engines of melee destruction aren't really against it.

Cleric concerns have NEVER been addressed first, things we are wondering about get looked at after or even a post thought to other things. The change in post 50 healing spells and fizzling was looked at after Druids complained but we had been asking about it from the outset. MoK overnerf; if its not as effecient as our least efficient heal its not worth casting. Druid Healing changes (Sup Heal moved, Natures Touch and Chloroblast added). Adding USEFUL effects to our Velious BPs. Bards get create food and water removed from Kunark armor and it appears on Cleric VELIOUS Armor....what the hell??? Our nukes get LESS mana effecient as they go up in level(was looked at and changed in the case of Judgement but its not even 2/3 as effecient as Moonfire). Every offensive spell we have is magic based. Invisibility. See Invisible. RAGEFIRE. The "solution" to ragefire was to make him a contested, non-triggered spawn, with a SLOWER spawning rate. Remember when druids had to camp out in Tim Deep for Faye? Yeah, thats what the Cleric epic is now. Only its in a zone that can be ported into so its bloody GUARANTEED to get contested in some form or another unless you keep the entire raid there for 1 week straight. I love my class. I like its strengths and weaknesses. What I cannot stomach is our strengths being eroded and anything that COULD or MIGHT allow versatility being ignored, nerfed or discarded.

MoK is situationally useful and can heal a hell of a lot in some situations, it could easily have been a broken spell, it just wasn't a good idea.

Druid healing changes were rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. It may have looked better but the ship still sank when the 60 heal is little better than a cleric 34 heal.

Most classes didn't do so hot with Velious effects. Clerics were one of the better ones, a somewhat useful BP and somewhat useful legs, druids got completely useless legs and a useful BP, our bracer is useful as well but there were several things in game already with that effect.

Cleric nukes weren't less efficient as they went up in level and Judgement (level 56) is 80% of moonfire (level 60), not 66%. At 56 clerics out manaregen druids with Y5, outnuke them with Judgement, by 58 clerics get BAotR and blow druids away for mana regen, have a bigger and comperably efficient nuke than druids, only by 59 are druids really ahead of clerics for direct damage. And druids have to put up with this complete @#%$ while being so completely and totally outclassed for healing by clerics as to be useless.

Ragefire sucks, but it sucks for everyone in the guild not just the cleric. Rumours are it will be changed. What really sucks about it though is that the cleric epic is useless to the cleric themselves unlike the other epics.

To shorten up what Im driving at....Clerics were told over and over that what we had was good enough and we werent GETTING any improvements to our versatility. Knowing that this is so wouldnt you protect what was getting you groups and raid desireability like it was the family jewels? If you KNOW you wont get anything better and you see other classes getting some of the things that allow you to group (your only effecient option), you would scream bloody murder too.

No, clerics were told they're getting balanced as part of the priest changes, same as druids. That didn't stop us bitching but only because it was taking months to see anything being done.

Really I'm sort of sick of listening to clerics. When they're not saying they never use CH and druids make spanking wonderful healers they're alternatly saying they can never get a group and giving CH to druids means they'll never get a group. *boggle*

Yes, I know clerics are now getting changes to our damage output. But if Melee is the answer I dare the Devs to state the question. Priest Melee is a joke and everyone knows it, except apparently the people that do priest balancing. Cleric DPS still wont approach any melee class and it wont approach that of a well played nuking class either.

Druids with a decent weapon and haste/buffs do more damage melee in a group than they do with their nukes. Medding 22 or 24 or whatever pathetic mana/tick gives at best 24dps, pretty achievable meleeing. Only in groups getting insanely bad XP by spending half or more of their time pulling or with KEI and bardsong going can druid nukes put out any significant damage and again, the druid is better off swinging while there is a mob in camp than nuking.

To clerics it might look like druids are frolicking in the forest of fluffy goodness but thats just because we're so damn sexy you can't take your eyes off of us to see the fire we're fleeing from.

The game doesnt solely revolve around CH anymore though! ...[rest of paragraph gives exmaples of killing 2-3 year old content...

Really, this first statement shows that fantasy world you are living in (and that fantasy world is not EQ). If you are incapable of realizing that the game revolves around CH, I don't know what to say. None of your miriad of bad examples are necessary for killing anything. CH is absolutly essential to killing any raid level content. The only reasonable retort from you is something along the lines of "but this game is not all about raiding." Feel free to argue that if you like. Certainly that is technically correct, but it is not the least bit pursuasive in arguing that everything is alright in the game with one class having CH.

Damage has increased, Hit points have increased, damage mitigation has increased, agro control has increased, Aexp abilities allowing people to do things that had never before been possible and always with fewer and fewer people.
Again I agree that you needed a greater healing capacity for raids. MOST Clerics agreed with this sentiment.

No, most clerics do not agree with that. The long post on EQClerics on teh day the spell hit the test server database (was not even in game on test) demonstrates that.

We wanted some way to prevent it from being an everyday heal used for grinding experience.

Pretty much proving my point. You did not like the idea of what Druids might be able to do with the new spell, and you wanted it to make sure Druids did not get it. It was not a suggestion of what to do for Clerics, you were fine witht eh status quo, but you did not want Druids getting a new heal. That was pretty much my entire point of the Cleric attitude. You know you dominate healing, you know that healing, generally, and CH in particular, is what gives you a monopoly on healing, and you will cry to the heavens if anything ever hints at threatening that monopoly.

We wanted something to counter-balance the increase in healing, via a downside to the spell or an increase in our abilities to compensate.

Once again, you wantted to make sure the Druid spell was not even as good as the inadequate heal it is on test now. Absent that, you wanted "compensation." Once again, a completely monopolistic apraoch. You were not interested simply in improving Clerics in areas they needed help (some ability to solo being the biggest problem), you just want "compensation" for the potential infringement on your healing monopoly by another class. That is pretty much typical of what I have read from clerics over the years on EQClerics and other message boards.

As far as the Ressurection line.....Verant had stated several times that that line of spells would not be given to other classes. It was. We were lied to. Hence the outrage. Id have to look long and hard but I can probably find the quote saying where it would not happen.

Once again, the Cleric mindset of wanting to preserve your monoply. No focus on what is good for the game. No concept of how Clerics should be improved, just a focus on how otehr classes whould not get things Clerics have. To me that is a stupid way to design a game based on classes. You want interdpendance, but you also want some overlap.

Hell, in my opinion, if a paladin can get up to level 59, they DESERVE that spell, they earned it. The Necro rez has a large downside and isnt even in the same boat, its nice but it will cost ya, basically.

Uhh, sure. Easy to say now. What were the Cleric boards reporting when that Necro spell went in though? Was it, "but look at the huge downside"? No, it was "Whaaaaaa! Necros should not be able to res. That is a Cleric ability." Your community said the same thing about Paladins. Want to see a comparison - look at the Druid reaction to Wizards shifting to the masters of teleports. You will not see near the bitching about that. When you do see complaints about Druid porting, you will never see a Druid saying "Those damn Wizards should not have X" you will only find Druids asking for X. Hence the major difference between class balance complaints of most classes and those of Clerics.

This is the fourth upgrade to Druid healing; Chloroblast and Natures Touch, Superior Heal moved below 50, Fizzle rate changed post 50 (Clerics also shared on this one) and now this one. All of these upgrades have occurred outside of regular increases in spell lists due to expansions.

Yeah. So? Druid healing is still pathetic compared to Cleric healing, and from teh looks of things, always will be. Emphasis on the word pathetic. Wizards nuke a lot better than Druids nuke, but our nuking is still just about right. On healing, however, all of those huge changes (all decried as the end of the world by the Cleric community) still pale in comparison to CH. It really does not matter how many upgrades Druids get to healing, the only thing that matters is does a change make the healing balanced. So far, none have. I suspect none ever will.

Now Im going to ask because Im seriously wondering.....if clerics are so "overpowered" why arent more people playing them?

What server and/or guild do you play on/belong to? (That question is rhetorical, btw). Clerics are the most common class in my guild. I suspect that is true of most raiding guilds. In spite of that, Clerics are the only class I ever have to worry about when I consider what my guild can do at any particular time.

You also have trapped yourself into misunderstanding "overpowered." Clerics are essential. Even if they were generally not a strong class (they are), when it comes to raids, multiple Clerics are essential. This is a very different thing from being "overpowered." A good example would be if every Cleric spell in teh game were elminated except CH and the content remainded as it is today, that situation would remain unchanged. Clerics (with CH an no other spell) would still be required in multitude for raids to happen. I really cannot phathom why you think that is not a problem.

I would personaly like it better if the new druid heal had no heal cap, but cost up to 800 mana instead. Then a druid could fill in during a raid, but clerics would be better.

"The" Cleric Community did not whine about Paladin/Necro resses. "The"Cleric Community did not call for nerfs on the new Druid Heals. "The" Cleric Community did not create a monopoly on heals.

The Cleric Community is just as divided as any other class when it comes to discussing issues of balance, tactics, and ideas. When others come here and say "Druids whine, Druids get all that,...etc, it's rightly pointed out that not all Druids feel that way. It's the same for Clerics. So while your arguments may hold weight with those Clerics that would argue with you, they don't hold weight with us all.

Now back to Point/Counterpoint.

OK. Lets see if I understand the thrust of your argument regarding Cleric healing. You state we have a "monopoly" on healing.

Let me state AGAIN what you are ignoring.
We cannot solo effeciently for experience.
Groups are our ONLY option for efficient experience.
We HAVE to bring something to the group that is NEEDED.
Healing is our largest strength.
If Druids can heal "sufficiently" for 95 percent of the exp grind content, what is a cleric going to do for exp?
If you cannot understand the basic premise that if you remove the need for clerical healing in groups the desire to group clerics drops to zero then I cant help you, you are flat stupid.

Druid DPS comes in 4 forms, Damage Shields, DoTs, Nukes AND Melee. Keep in mind you can debuff so your nukes actually LAND. Keep in mind that you can buff attack in outdoor zones. Keep in mind that Damage Shield is the SINGLE most effecient method of dealing damage via spell in the entire game.

Mark of Karn....really. Ignore its resist rate; try it without Tash on a mob, go ahead see how many casts it takes on average to land on Blues to Dark Blues. It heals based on damage/delay on the main hand ONLY. For 125 mana it needs to heal at a ratio of 2.5 HPs/mana point to keep pace with Remedy, our WORST ratio spell post 50; if it isnt resisted. It has to heal 313 HPs per mob, if it isnt resisted. The data is somewhat hazy on the actual amounts healed per swing but I think it will average to around 5 per swing with the main hand ONLY, if it isnt resisted. If your tank is holding agro like he should then you have mobs needing to 32 rounds of melee IF every single double attack hits, which it doesnt. Go grind some numbers on Mark of Karn, its only viable usage is when you deal with heavily damage shielded mobs. It erases Damage shields when cast and thats when it becomes an effective cast, if it isnt resisted.


Clerics are dependent upon groups, at least SOME groups need to be dependent on Clerics or we are screwed. Point blank there it is. There NEED to be places where every single class is taxed to their limits on healing, damage output, agro control and crowd control. The problem is they either dont exist or there arent sufficient rewards for those places. I do NOT understand why anything in Ssra cons the same as a dog in Velks, that just is NOT right. I remember when you didnt go much of anywhere not just with a cleric but with an evac and a backup healer in case it all hit the fan as it so frequently did.

Remember balance according to the statement I keep seeing applies to raiding, soloing and grouping. We own one. Raids. We hold an EDGE on grouping; its not overpowering by any means, our damage production just isnt there in realtion to druids or shamen (mana free damage is a big reason why DoTs are another). Soloing is nothing short of pathetic. We get owned plain and simple.

I can completely understand that you see CH as completely overpowering for raids. But get it through your head there is no way that Verant is going to assign 10 to 20 people worth of manpower for over 2 to 3 months to retune every major encounter for the past 3 years. God would you understand that? I guess what you are saying is that because a class is essential that equates to power. Im arguing that it doesnt and it DAMN sure doesnt always equate to fun. So because CH is essential, Clerics shouldnt get offensive or utility upgrades? Is CH overpowering or is it essential? Or are you arguing both as it serves your argument from one position to the next?

Ive seen VT and everything below it. Ive seen the power of a CH chain. But what I understand that you dont is that every single class makes solid contributions to the raid. No matter what the class they all mesh to make the whole more solid than the parts. Clerics are needed in numbers, yes. I dare you to guess how many Bots there are though. Whether this points to a problem in the fun level of clerics or a problem in the numbers of clerics needed I shall leave to you I have a sneaking suspicion on which way you think. I myself think its both.

The Devs defined clerics as "overpowered", Druids defined clerics as "overpowered". We didnt. Clerics understood we were reliant on others to get things done. We were satisfied with that because a good sized amount of people were reliant on us to get things done. You break one half of this statment you have just broken the other.


Belkram

"Clerics are dependent upon groups, at least SOME groups need to be dependent on Clerics or we are screwed. Point blank there it is."

If, by dependent upon groups, you mean that clerics can't get xp otherwise (soloing), consider this. Rogues and Warriors, for the most part, are dependent upon groups. XP groups are not dependent upon Rogues or Warriors. Both are replaceable. (Even HS can be crawled without a Rogue - lockpicking is nice, but not required to get xp there.)

Are Rogues and Warriors screwed? Groups function fine without them, yet they can still get groups. Talk about competition for the tanking spot: Warriors are up against Shadowknights, Paladins, Monks, and some Rangers. Rogues are the best damage dealers, but they are not the only ones available for the job.

Why pick a Shadowknight for a meleer when a Rogue does more damage? Why pick a Warrior as a tank when a Paladin can do just as well, heal the group, and rez you if necessary? The answer is usually, "Well, there's a Shadowknight LFG here and no Rogue, so let's get going." Plenty of classes get groups by being *there*, not by being *required*.

Tanking, like healing, isn't very stackable. The second warrior in a group may be able to tank, but he may not take more than a few hits all night. Likewise, with clerics and druids and shamans in groups, only one may take primary healing duties. Druids and shamans can and will do other things when a cleric is present. When things get exciting, it is often nice to have a capable backup tank. Likewise, capable backup healers make groups less likely to wipe out.

Do clerics and druids have valid concerns? Yes.
Will interchangeability among healers spell the end of xp groups for clerics? Based on what I've seen, no.

-Quelm

"I remember when you didnt go much of anywhere not just with a cleric but with an evac and a backup healer in case it all hit the fan as it so frequently did."

For the record, I remember this too. "Crawls" are more fun than "grinds" in my opinion. When you're on the move, doing different pulls, breaking camps every few minutes, it is really nice to have more than one healer. I'd like to see more zones with high healing requirements (or better xp in the ones that currently exist.)

Tanking doesnt stack in groups? /boggle
Since when?
Damage is damage!
4 tanks means...at worst; 4 mobs able to be tanked, 4 melee whaling away on a mob...

Good god, melee have been interchangable in groups since the beginning of the game, how you can equate that with a change 3 years down the road?

Melee stack. Period. You can EASILY see a group with a rogue, warrior, shadowknight, paladin, monk or multiples of each all the way up to 5 of one class in a group. Im not forgetting Rangers or Beastlords but ya know, for the sake of the example...5 in a group plus healer is 6.

Now...try that with healing classes! At best you will stack one of each or 2 of one class,or one main and one backup more than that is redundant. Apples and oranges.

Two things in EQ stack to a point then become useless in normal groups; healing and crowd control. Once you have enough healing to keep melee on their feet and hit the groove where you keep your mana steady and kill at a steady rate then thats all you need. Crowd control that outpaces the killing rate is equally silly, unless the 2 or 3 enchanters or whatever start breaking out Dire Charm and regular charms.


Belkram

tanking != damage

Multi-tank groups (not multi-melee, multi-tank) are fun, especially when 2 or 3 tanks need a CH at the same time, and I have to keep the other ones alive to get CH'd. It's also in this vein that our Rain spells really shine, I was doing nearly 2k of damage with 332 mana under most circumstances with this, FAR superior to the piddly 688 for 250 mana that I normally get.

Howling Stones owns.

I chose to make a distinction between taking damage "tanking" and dealing damage. Yes, melee damage stacks. No, it is not typical to pull one mob for each "tank" present. Extra tanking power, like backup healing, is a handy resource sometimes, but you don't need it for an xp group. Warriors are capable of filling a damage dealing role, but that doesn't mean that their tanking ability is stackable.

Also, the change you speak of is more recent than "3 years." Remember when Complete Heal did about 2k, Druids and Shamans had Greater healing a few levels after Clerics and were capable of being main healer in groups? If we take Pre-Kunark EQ as a reference, the game was designed with interchangeable healers. Somewhere around Velious, Complete Heal became *the* healing spell (although it was useful earlier.) Some spells scaled well with increasing hitpoints and damage output: slow, complete heal. Others, like damage shields and regens, didn't. To illustrate this point, consider powerlevelling a melee character from 1-60 using a priest class. Druids do quite well early on, with damage shields. For 55+ work, a Cleric or Shaman is a better choice. Balance and interchangeability that exists in the early game is eroded by level 60. Returning Druids and Shamans to their positions as capable healers is a correction, restoring balance that originally existed, and not a revolution as some seem to think.

You dont "need" it but its not a detriment to the group. Too many healers can be because their damage capabilities are limited. Thats my point. Last time I checked a tank can deal damage effectively. A tank doesnt equal damage but it DOES mean some damage output. Sorry if there was some confusion.

Belkram

warrior's/knight's damage when compared to a rogue's or monk's isn't much different than a druid's or cleric's damage compared to wizard's. your group gets a warrior to tank, and a cleric to heal. you have some empty slots, getting another warrior/knight will be considerably less dps than getting a rogue (assuming their job is to do nothing but dps, since someone else is tanking). for non melees, you could get a wizard or a priest to do extra damage, the priest wouldn't be needed to heal unless it was an emergency, much like how the second tank wouldn't be needed to tank unless you ended up with two unmezable mobs. the second priest will do considerably less damage than the wizard would. the difference is, however, that the classes that offer the least dps are also the one's that groups require (assuming you arent fighting trivial stuff). a group needs a healer and a tank, but they dont need a rogue or wizard. but given extra slots to fill, the wizard or rogue will be more desirable 90% of the time. tanks are at the same loss that healers are when it comes to pure stackability. damage dealers are at a loss when groups are looking for crucial classes and they cant offer the function that the tanks/healers can. a group without a healer will not take a wizard if there's only 1 slot left, but a group with a healer will always take a wizard over a second healer to fill that last slot

look at it this way, for a group to have maximum dps without buffs from outsiders, it would be something like chanter, bard, rogue rogue rogue rogue. chanter for hastes, bard for massive attack buffs that will add more damage than another rogue, and the rogues of course for hack'n'slashing. but this group cant kill harder mobs. the ideal group for taking down the hardest mob possible (excluding mass DC pet bum rushes)would look something like cleric, mage, shaman, enchanter, warrior, bard. cleric for heals, mage for mod rods and ds, shaman for buffs and debuffs, enchanter for speed kei and tash, warrior to take the beating, and bard for ds and chorus. the first group with huge dps could probably rack up huge experience points in sebilis or the hole, but would struggle killing 1 mob in CT. the second group is capable of killing some pretty difficult mobs, but their experience would drag in most places because of short dps.

whats the solution? honestly i dont know. until every class can offer considerable sustained dps and have something unique to bring to a group, then things will never be "fair" and one class will always be more desired than another. fixing the exp tables would be a step in the right direction, but every time an expansion launches it just gets borked all over again.

Let me state AGAIN what you are ignoring.

We're not the ignorant ones. The very fact that clerics can melee (in XP groups) for almost the damage druids can nuke for from medding, and come reasonably close in damage for non medded mana, then on top of that have rezzes, and a better variety of heals and better HP buffs says that clerics are still the better choice for a group. I don't know what dreamland you're living in thinking druids add DPS to groups but the fact is with the current changes clerics will probably add more DPS to groups than druids will or be very comperable. Your entire pity us argument is out the bloody window. Druids are practically the LAST choice you'd want to add to a group unless you needed evac or have both an enchanter and bard shoving mana up their @#%$, a shaman tossing malo and they can use a horse.

Groups are our ONLY option for efficient experience.

And groups basically aren't an option for druids, and AE groups are right out. Druids at high levels are also one of the worst solos except in very certain situations. Wizards have 10% better quads, that work indoors and they have better manaregen AA and resist rate, shamans and necros have more efficient DOTs, extremely superior mana regen and better clickys, most meleers once they get good equipment will again be able to outsolo druids except in certain situations. Again, you're living in some fantasy world of druid uberness. Cleric soloing might not be @#%$ hot without a manastone/faithstone but don't start looking at druids for soloing ability.

If you cannot understand the basic premise that if you remove the need for clerical healing in groups the desire to group clerics drops to zero then I cant help you, you are flat stupid.

But your basic premise of druids getting CH removing the need for clerics in groups is overblown.

Druid DPS comes in 4 forms, Damage Shields, DoTs, Nukes AND Melee. Keep in mind you can debuff so your nukes actually LAND. Keep in mind that you can buff attack in outdoor zones. Keep in mind that Damage Shield is the SINGLE most effecient method of dealing damage via spell in the entire game.

You're making feeble and useless points. If a druid has to debuff a mob their already extraordinarly bad DPS just went in the ****ter, no druid uses debuffs in groups, ever. The entire what, 1 zone, CT, we can do wolf form for 30ATK, big @#%$ deal, it doesn't stack with AoB, garou, FoN, Avatar, Bi'Li etc. and unless you play 3rd person it's annoying. Damage shields are NOT the most efficient way of dealing damage by spell and the amount of damage they do is very limited even if it is effecient. Druid DOTs are a complete waste of mana and click time in groups who kill a mob in any reasonable amount of time.

You're seriously overestimating druids.

If a group ONLY wants a CH machine that won't need to DA from agro (and has 1k less HPs and 100 less AC than a typical cleric from BAotR and Aego over glades), puts out @#%$ for DPS, will never need to rez, doesn't mind having 680 less HPs from buffs and thus over 10% less efficient CHing right there, then yes, druids will threaten clerics. If you have the choice, you take the cleric, but if the cleric or a shaman isn't available then a druid MIGHT actually be able to do the job IF a paladin is with the group if they get a full CH finally.

Stop pulling numbers out of the air and look up the actual parses of druid DPS that were made here by actual druids before complaining about how much DPS a druid can do. Saying "but you can nuke, dot, DS..." sounds nice but no one is impressed until you actually parse. I haven't bothered to read through the entire thread but most of the new posters in here seem to be experts on druid DPS in exp groups all of a sudden.

Well I did 22k to THO not counting DS.

Thats nice THO is what a 30 minute fight? 800 damage per minute. You SHOULD be proud.

Forgot the timing but it wasnt 30 minutes and that was also healing and debuffing. On a NtoV dragon I did 17k with dots and dd and being primary healer to a group (and watching people in general). That was a fairly short fight.

Whatever nothing will make some people happy here. That much is obvious.

Forgot the timing but it wasnt 30 minutes and that was also healing and debuffing. On a NtoV dragon I did 17k with dots and dd and being primary healer to a group (and watching people in general). That was a fairly short fight.

If you had no pressure for healing, well, you suck. Even the short ones I'll break 20k on most of the dragons, usually well over 30k. If you were pressed for healing, a cleric would outdamage you if magic lands on the mob. you spend 2k healing 6k damage and 2k dealing 12k damage, the cleric spends 700 healing 6k damage and 3.3k dealing 16k damage.

Yeah I had a party with 1 warrior, 1 ranger, 1 chanter, 2 wizzies I was healing too. I am not a nuking druid by nature so for me it was pretty good!