And interesting notion crossed my mind.

What is it about Muslims that Liberals find so compelling that they must defend them, and apologize for them?

I mean...

They hate gay people, they imprison them even.
They are certainly not pro gay marriage.
They are very anti-women, women are property and don't vote for the most part.
They do those honor killings.
They perform clitorectomies on their daughters.
They hate Jews with a passion.

Is it the distance, geographical separation?
Is it cultural or religious tolerance? Can't be can it, most Liberals are very intolerant of the Christian Religious Right, and that is a religious culture.

Is it as simple as they hate Bush as much as they do?

Is it as simple as they hate Bush as much as they do?

It's not about hating anyone as much as it is refusing to defend horrible acts by anyone. Even Bush. And even when it's "Justified" by saying "But when WE do this it's okay cause we're good".

"But daddy.. what he did was worse, so it's okay for me to act like ****" kinda went out as a valid argument somewhere around age 4, it sickens me to see how many otherwise intelligent adults have decided to re-adopt such thinking.

So that is why you think Liberals like Muslims.

So that is why you think Liberals like Muslims.

No, that's your misconseption. It's not about liking one group and disliking another.

No, that's your misconseption. It's not about liking one group and disliking another.

What is it about?

Yes it is.

Euro-liberals like Arabs and dislike Jews.

It really is about liking one group and disliking another.

American Liberals don't all like Muslims. They don't like the lies and travesties that Bush has imposed on America in his crusade, however.

What is it about Muslims that Liberals find so compelling that they must defend them, and apologize for them?The enemy of my enemy is my friend?

The enemy of my enemy is my friend?

*cough*BDS*cough*

*cough*BDS*cough*
Well, that is what spurred the thought.

It can't be that, only. It is irrational.

And we all know that Liberals are enlightened, educated, and rational.

If there were any muslims posting on the board saying that it's fine to burn an effigy of the Pope because he didn't respect a religious leader, well a few liberals might just disagree with that. As it stands, any potential muslim posters are probably scared off by Aidon's invective. What we do have is hawks posting up bloody solutions to the middle east, so any liberals who respond will be posting about that instead.

What is it about Muslims that Liberals find so compelling that they must defend them, and apologize for them?
I guess you could ask that for gays, people of various races, the poor, whatever other thing you want to stereotype on today.

We just refuse to accept that everyone is exactly the same, based on weak stereotypes, and try to realize that within any broad swath of people there are differences.

And there's also the belief that you can't just beat people into submission or change or decide to change out their governments for them. Playing at John Wayne is only good in movies. In RL it works like crap. There's more to foreign policy than shouting "Yee haw!" and drawing your guns.

I'm not talking about all that other stuff.

Why do you guys and girls like defending Muslims so much?



When their culture stands for so many things that you are supposedly against.

I just addressed that.

y culture also includes things I disagree with. It used to include a ton of things I disagree with: Slavery, lynchings, woman couldn't vote or hold many jobs, putting people into stockades.

I'm glad we got the opportunity to figure out better ways to behave. I bet if some "enlightened" society came along to force us to do some of these things, we'd have probably resisted and still be doing them.

uslims have many, many different cultures, from Asia to Africa and everywhere. They're not all exactly the same, any more than all Christians are the same.

I just addressed that.

y culture also includes things I disagree with. It used to include a ton of things I disagree with: Slavery, lynchings, woman couldn't vote or hold many jobs, putting people into stockades.

I don't know any of those people, they are all dead. I have never met any of them, they were all dead before I was born.

The people I am talking about are alive now, this is part of their culture. They believe this stuff now.

I am sorry that that is your culture. It is not part of mine. Condolences.


y Viking ancestors had some Anglo Saxon slaves, though. But guilt is not hereditary, and I have never owned a slave. Viking culture is not viable or defended by anyone I know of, today(even though I would have been an awesome Viking).

Muslims have many, many different cultures, from Asia to Africa and everywhere. They're not all exactly the same, any more than all Christians are the same.

As a culture, Muslims generally have commonalities.

Just as a culture, Christians generally have commonalities.


That is what is meant by a culture.

If they don't share commonalities, they are not the same culture.

Can you just dismiss the traits you don't like, wave them off, "The Muslims I like and defend, don't have any of those negative traits, that is a different culture than the one you are talking about." "My Muslims are different than your Muslims." "My Muslims only have all the good traits."

Could you link to a post that illustrates what you're asking about, Fyyr?

I can't see any point in this discussion, Fyyr. You're xenophobic about muslims and not really interested in seeing this from anyone elses point of view.

I was interested in the answer.

If these guys were the Religious Right, you would be all over them.

You are not, so I want to know why not. Simple question and request.

If it only entails bumper sticker wisdom, you can keep it. Save your breath.

If it only entails bumper sticker wisdom, you can keep it. Save your breath.


But "bumper sticker wisdom" describes the vast majority of your posts, and I haven't noticed you slowing down..... :)

But "bumper sticker wisdom" describes the vast majority of your posts, and I haven't noticed you slowing down..... :)

No insight from you as well?

No insight from you as well?
aybe he realizes the fruitlessness of it as well.

Seriously, if you want a debate you need to learn how to listen (or read) and respond to the dialogue, not just insult people.

I don't want to debate.

I want to know why Liberals defend and apologize and protect Muslims, when their culture so radically opposes Liberal beliefs and ideology.

aybe I want too much.
aybe Liberals do it because it is the in thing to do, and don't really know why.
In that case, the BDS thing becomes plausible, I guess.

I want to know why Liberals defend and apologize and protect Muslims, when their culture so radically opposes Liberal beliefs and ideology.


That is liberalism; treating people without prejudice despite their differences.

That is liberalism; treating people without prejudice despite their differences.

You support The Religious Right, and Pro-Lifers.
You support School Prayer in public schools.
You support those against Gay Marriage.
You support those against Equal Rights for Women.
?

Those are all qualities of the Conservative Right.
And they are all qualities, of even moderate, Islam.

Has nothing to do with prejudice.
One group of people with a set of qualities, you support.
The other group of people with the same type of set of qualities you oppose.

Why is that?

And just for the fun of it, how come Liberals are treating Rep. Foley so shabbily, if not for prejudices. He is different than you, why don't you like and support him?

uslims are religious. They are Anti-Abortion.
They are not only FOR school prayer, they practice it.
They oppose Gay Marriage, and will imprison homosexuals.
They oppose Equal Rights for Women.
They practice clitorectomies on their daughters, so that they will not enjoy sex.

Perhaps you are confusing liberal with people you call Liberal as a political affiliation. I certainly can't speak as a US Liberal, and people who consider themselves liberal probably won't fit into your idea of a political Liberal. I can see you are certainly confusing the respect for people's opinions with supporting people's opinions. You can't support everything, no matter how much you might want to.

So your answer is that I don't know what a Liberal is?

That is liberalism; treating people without prejudice despite their differences.
I was addressing your own definition.

You as well as I know that Muslims don't "treat people without prejudice despite their differences." Can we at least agree on that...that Muslims are not Liberals.

That would be a start.

And most Liberals do not respect my opinions, does that automatically make them NOT Liberals. What do they become when they stop respecting my opinions?

We can both agree that I am not a Liberal. Right, with all your other subterfuge and obfuscation, we can both agree that I am not a Liberal?

There are at least some liberals who are at least as anti - (radical) muslim as the most right wing, conservative, fundamentalist christians. Sam Harris is one. He's very anti-religion in almost all aspects, so it may be that he has a natural bias against any religion, but I think that he has some interesting things to say about the conflict between western culture and radical islam, especially since it comes from a liberal / leftist / secularist point of view:

On questions of national security, I am now as wary of my fellow liberals as I am of the religious demagogues on the Christian right.

This may seem like frank acquiescence to the charge that “liberals are soft on terrorism.” It is, and they are.

A cult of death is forming in the Muslim world — for reasons that are perfectly explicable in terms of the Islamic doctrines of martyrdom and jihad. The truth is that we are not fighting a “war on terror.” We are fighting a pestilential theology and a longing for paradise.

This is not to say that we are at war with all Muslims. But we are absolutely at war with those who believe that death in defense of the faith is the highest possible good, that cartoonists should be killed for caricaturing the prophet and that any Muslim who loses his faith should be butchered for apostasy.

Unfortunately, such religious extremism is not as fringe a phenomenon as we might hope. Numerous studies have found that the most radicalized Muslims tend to have better-than-average educations and economic opportunities.

Given the degree to which religious ideas are still sheltered from criticism in every society, it is actually possible for a person to have the economic and intellectual resources to build a nuclear bomb — and to believe that he will get 72 virgins in paradise. And yet, despite abundant evidence to the contrary, liberals continue to imagine that Muslim terrorism springs from economic despair, lack of education and American militarism.

http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/the-end-of-liberalism/
from
http://www.samharris.org/

Gotta agree with that.

There are a lot of Christians/Jews* who in my opinion beleive in completely rediculous things, but otherwise are really smart people, so it makes sense that there are a lot of Muslims who beleieve in completely rediculous things (that are dangerous) but are quite intelligent.

Generally though the worst I can expect from the former is stupid law, but from the latter Its more like death, destruction etc.

One could argue that on a day to day basis I have more to worry about from the former, but thats only caues of the extreme amount of influence they wield at home compare to the latter.

Faith Trumps Logic/reason for most people (although they may not see it that way for themselve, they usually wont hesitate to point out all the illogicalities of others)

*As there are for all religions and people who are not religious

I should stay out of this discussion, but oh well ...

You support The Religious Right, and Pro-Lifers.
You support School Prayer in public schools.
You support those against Gay Marriage.
You support those against Equal Rights for Women.
?

Those are all qualities of the Conservative Right.
And they are all qualities, of even moderate, Islam.


I am neither a political liberal nor an ideological liberal the way you seem to define it but I am not supporting any group whose opinions I am opposed to. I am however, supporting their right to lead their life the way they see fit.
I do strongly object if anybody attempts to force his or her opinions onto me, whether it is through (forced) conversion, coercion or through law.
This means I would object to school prayers in public schools, but not against it in schools founded on a particular religion. The first would force somebody else's faith on me, the second would not.
If any group wishes gays not to marry I have no problem with that, but if they want to prevent gays not of their particular religion or political bend to marry then I think they better have pretty good arguments (and 'it is in the book' is not remotely an argument in my opinion).
I poke at the religious right, and not e.g. at the Amish or the Mennonites, because they try to force their particular beliefs on the rest of the world. Both groups have beliefs I strongly disagree with, but only one of them tries to force others to act according to their beliefs.

This is also why I will not automatically hate (all) muslims, will not oppose to what they believe and will not seek to limit their right to live the way they chose to. As long as they respect my right to live as I want to as well. Those that can not do the later, regardless of what god they swear by, I will oppose, but only for their attempt to run my life for me, not for their beliefs. And yes, I am aware of the fact that in some cultures things are done to groups (usually women I might add) that are in my opinion a crime against humanity and that I am defending their right to do so. This skirts dangerously close to cultural relativism, but who am I to decide that I am right and they are wrong? If I were to reserve that right for myself while denying it to others that would be an even greater hypocracy. So with that knowledge I do the best I can. I try to understand as many viewpoints as I can and attempt to ensure that everybody is given free choices to leave or stay in their situation, and the mandates of the culture they grew up in.



Eri (leaving this discussion rather hastily)

And most Liberals do not respect my opinions, does that automatically make them NOT Liberals. What do they become when they stop respecting my opinions?

I think most Liberals would agree that your opinions are worth a tick on a ballot sheet, just like everyone else's. You're free to speak your mind and any liberal is free to speak their mind to you as well.

And most Liberals do not respect my opinions, does that automatically make them NOT Liberals. What do they become when they stop respecting my opinions?


I may think you have the right to have an opinion, but that doesn't mean I have to respect your opinion. All opinions do not have the same value or deserve the same amount of respect. I respect those opinions that are well-reasoned and based on logic and fact. Or at least on an honest emotional assessment.

This is also why I will not automatically hate (all) muslims, will not oppose to what they believe and will not seek to limit their right to live the way they chose to. As long as they respect my right to live as I want to as well.

The vast majority of Muslims on this planet do seek to limit your right to live the way your choose. If they had their way, you'd be wearing hijab, living in a Muslim Nation. Your newspapers and magazines would all be destroyed, because one of them dared draw Mohammed. You would have to convert to Islam, or pay a special tax and occasionally be beaten for ****s and giggles. Providing your Christian (I know you're not a Jew). If you're not a Christian, then you have the option of conversion or death (and Muslims are big fans of liquidating entire villages to get their point across...they do so wherever they have sufficient numbers).

At this point in time, Muslims need to prove to me that they don't want to destroy me and everything I stand for. They've lost the benefit of the doubt on a global and individual level.

I am a firm believer in live and let live, and letting folks keep their culture as they see fit...but the culture of Islam across this planet has been hostile, aggressive, terroristic, and dangerous. I refuse to adopt a live and let live attitude with a group of people who have a "join us or die" attitude.

The vast majority of Muslims on this planet do seek to limit your right to live the way your choose. If they had their way, you'd be wearing hijab, living in a Muslim Nation. Your newspapers and magazines would all be destroyed, because one of them dared draw Mohammed. You would have to convert to Islam, or pay a special tax and occasionally be beaten for ****s and giggles.

There is a sizeable Muslim population in my country. They do not force other people to wear a hijab, try to destroy newspapers, or limit the choices of people outside their own communities. They generally try to maintain their way of life, most of the culture clashes coming when the majority population tries to impose their values upon the minority.

I may think you have the right to have an opinion, but that doesn't mean I have to respect your opinion.

I suppose that you are not a Liberal then, are ya?

There is a sizeable Muslim population in my country. They do not force other people to wear a hijab, try to destroy newspapers, or limit the choices of people outside their own communities. They generally try to maintain their way of life, most of the culture clashes coming when the majority population tries to impose their values upon the minority.

2.5% of your population is Muslim. That's not sizeable.

See what happens if they get 45% of your population...

I suppose that you are not a Liberal then, are ya?

No, it means that you have a warped definition of Liberal. I might as well say that being close-minded and given to bumper-sticker wisdom makes you a Right-Wing Conservative.

Of course, neither your definition of Liberal nor that definition of Right-Wing Conservative is very accurate.

Dude, I was commenting on his definition.

I have not even defined Liberals here.

Use your own definition, if it suits you better.

I only list a small partial sample of the issues or qualities that Liberals who I have met or listened to like to express. General points of ideology which seem to be common.

If you know a lot of Liberals without those qualities, more power to ya, man.


As an aside, as an example of exception, most other people think that Liberals are all anti-gun. I don't think that, because I have met a ton of Liberal gun nuts in my experiences. You just don't see them up on CNN or Fox blabbing their brains out.

BTW, I largely agree with Sam Harris with regard to Muslim attempts to control my life. I also view the right-wing evangelical element in the U.S. the same way. In fact, IMO, the greater threat to my personal freedoms probably is greater from the latter group than the first.

As an aside, as an example of exception, most other people think that Liberals are all anti-gun. I don't think that, because I have met a ton of Liberal gun nuts in my experiences. You just don't see them up on CNN or Fox blabbing their brains out.

Those are the liberals who realize what the Second Amendment is all about. And they're keeping their powder dry for when certain elements attempt to turn us into a evangelical theocracy. Just ask Aidon.. :)

Yar...I'll blow those crazy goyim right into their rapture, if they try to make this nation a christian nation.

Could you link to a post that illustrates what you're asking about, Fyyr?


/bump

/bump
I don't know what you are asking.

I don't know what you are asking.

Your original post here, could you point to a specific example?

Yar...I'll blow those crazy goyim right into their rapture, if they try to make this nation a christian nation.
That's a good quote. :)

Your original post here, could you point to a specific example?

Do you sympathize with Islamists?

If the answer is yes, then that is your example.

I have never heard anything critical of them from you, so I suppose the answer would be yes. Though I don't know, of course.

Your original post here, could you point to a specific example?

Watch this to the end...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsXNj20xLs8&mode=related&search=

Do you sympathize with Islamists?

If the answer is yes, then that is your example.

I have never heard anything critical of them from you, so I suppose the answer would be yes. Though I don't know, of course.

So I guess your answer to my question about providing a specific example is "no, I can't" - which goes to show that perhaps your assumption on which the question originally was based is incorrect.

Watch this to the end...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsXNj20xLs8&mode=related&search=

We got one of those as well, just he's as aryan white as they come - he does, however, set out to appear as stupid as humanly possible while interviewing anyone even remotely famous that comes to Norway.

Guess what - they don't call him on it either. So I think it's safe to say that the assumption made by one of the guys in that video that part of the reason people didn't call him on it was that he called himself Ali doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Gief better example, kthx.