View Full Forums : Yesterday, and Today
Fenier
10-18-2006, 09:05 AM
Old Spell Values used when available.
Yesterday - Oringal EQ, A Druid using Starfire delt 612 points of damage, compared to the Highest Heal they had, which healed 290 (Greater Healing).
Healing 47% of Direct Damage Power
Yesterday - Kunark, a Druid using Wildfire delt 1024 damage, compared to the highest heal they had, which healed 525 (Superior Healing)
Healing 51% of Direct Damage Power
Yesterday - Velious, a Druid using Wildfire delt 1024 Damage, compared to the highest heal they had, which healed 978 (Nature's Touch - added late Velious)
Healing 95% of Direct Damage Power
Yesterday - Luclin (Late Luclin) A Druid using Moonfire (first time Cold Damage was higher then Fire for a Druid) delt 1150 damage, compared to the highest heal they had, which healed 2925 (Tunare's Renewal).
Healing 254% of Direct Damage Power (TR)
Healing 85% of Direct Damage Power (NT)
Yesterday - Planes of Power, a Druid using Winter's Frost delt 1550 Damage, compared to the highest heal they had, which healed 4680 (Karana's Renewal).
Healing 302% of Direct Damage Power
Healing 113% of Direct Damage Power (NI)
Yesterday - Gates of Discord, a Druid using Sylvan Fire delt 1705 Damage, compared to Karana's Renewal
Healing 274% of Direct Damage Power (KR)
Healing 123% of Direct Damage Power (SI)
Yesterday - Omens of War, a Druid using Glitterfrost delt 2132 Damage, compared to Karana's Renewal
Healing 220% of Direct Damage Power (KR)
Healing 114% of Durect Damage Power (Chlorotrope)
Today:
A Druid using Equnionx Burn deals 2972 Damage, compared to the highest heal we have, which heals 4680 (Karana's Renewal)
Healing 157% of Direct Damage Power (KR)
Healing 114% of Direct Damage Power (Pure Life)
Now, to all of those people wondering why the drastic shift, there are two reasons I can come up with.
Sony wanted to move away from requiring a cleric for content, and more importantly, we asked for it. (http://eq.forums.thedruidsgrove.org/showthread.php?t=3810)
Heh, who would have thought the changes requested by players back in March of 2002 would have such long lasting impact.
Fenier
10-18-2006, 03:40 PM
For those who claim Our Nukes have fallen so drastically behind in terms of power (not dps, but actual nuke damage values):
Orginal EQ:
Wizard - Ice Comet, 1120 Damage (43% Stronger), 6.3 Seconds 177.78 DPS (44% more DPS)
age - Lava Bolt, 810 Damage (14% Stronger), 7 Seconds 115.7 DPS (13% More DPS)
Druid - Starfire, 612 Damage, 6.1 Seconds 100.3 DPS
age - Shock of Swords, 600 Damage (2% Weaker), 6.1 Seconds 98.36 DPS (1.9% Less DPS)
Today's Values:
Wizard - Sothgar's Flame, 4713 Damage (42% Stonger), 8 Seconds 589.12 DPS (14% more DPS)
age - Bolt of Molten Slag, 3612 (14% Stronger)7 Seconds, 516 DPS (14% more DPS)
age - Fickle Inferno, 2866 (4% stronger), 6.35 Seconds 568.81 DPS (24% more DPS)
Druid - Equinox Burn, 2752, 6.35 Seconds, 433.38 DPS
So gain ground on wizards, lose some ground to mages.
Alaene
10-18-2006, 03:48 PM
It's interesting to look at the history, but the above is also an example of the old "lies, damn lies and statistics" adage.
That KR is still the main "%age over DPS" heal used for comparison (at 157% of Equinox Burn) tells the story. The fast-heal numbers have been at or around 100% since Velious, so not a lot has changed since expansion #3 in that regard.
Raw healed numbers, of course, are only part of the picture. Cast times are critical, as is healing efficiency. Variety of healing tools also plays big part, and in looking at class balance it's impossible to look at the druid class in isolation.
As the game has changed, the need for more tools (reptile, moonshadow) has appeared, and although druids asked for more healing it was really critical to the health of EQ that changes were made to prevent clerics holding the game to ransom.
What's my point? Don't penalise the druids who want to deal damage simply because the game needs us to be viable healers. SOE, address our DPS position, which has unreasonably dwindled away, most recently as compared to the shaman.
Fenier
10-18-2006, 03:52 PM
I'm not saying we don't need adjustment, just history doesn't do us alot of justice when our ratios have remained consisant since as far back as Planes of Power (I used old spell data).
Ratios on a per nuke basis, as shown in post two, have not changed drastically either, since in terms of the nukes compared, all three classes have Quick Damage, and similar cast times to the Orginal EQ Models.
All classes have gotten differant things, which adjust both healing and dps values, but the basic core spells are still nearly the same as they where 7 years ago.
EDIT: Added DPS values to previous post
Alaene
10-18-2006, 06:26 PM
I don't dispute your figures on DPS Fen, but I have a massive problem with the way they're presented. The same issue with the comment I made in my healing post - it only shows part of the picture, and the result is very misleading. You acknowledge this by clarifying you're talking about core spells, but those are only a small part of the picture these days.
When you compare the other tools in the nuking toolbox, (such as the instacast wizzy TSS nuke, .5 sec SotQ for shammy, or upgraded Fickle Fire/Ether Flame for Wiz/Mag in TSS) Druids look like a poor cousin again.
I really don't intend to sound like a whiner, and I'm content to make do with what I've got. I think Winter's Flame was probably intended to help druids out in this regard, but it turned out to be mostly useless. I just think the class balance position is very far from doing justice to druids.
Fenier
10-18-2006, 06:38 PM
I left Sting out since it remains to be seen if we can get one of our spells to become comparable and restore balance.
Wizards and Mages did gain in DPS, but we also gained 67% in healing using our non-renewal lines.
I am of the opinion, and I realize I may not be I the majority - that then 67% increase to healing power while not really losing anything verus the core lines of the classes I compared to somewhat offsets the dps gains they did get.
Sting makes no sense. Really.
Kamion
10-18-2006, 06:41 PM
Any reason you used Sothgar's for wizzy instead of their largest nuke (Ethereal Configeration.)?
Fenier
10-18-2006, 06:57 PM
The Etheral line is recent (DoD) and can't be traced back to orginal EQ.
Ice Comet is actually an oddity, because it was the last time Ice Damage was Greater then Fire for them.
During the large debate we had here back when we last talked about stances, I got the general impression of - and agreed with - that Etheral Line and Pyre Line for Necromancers are not 'typical'.
The progression I would use for wizards is:
Ice Comet, Sunstrike, Garison's Superior Sundering, Strike of Solusek, White Fire, Corona Flare, Sothgar's Flame
As of this time, I have not gone back and done all ratios per era, but I would bet that is the line our fire nukes are based off of, as well as Mage Bolts/Fire spells. The Etheral Line seems as something "extra" wizards get as Kings of Direct Damage. IE - High Base damage at nearly twice the mana cost of what you would have normally used.
Alaene
10-18-2006, 07:03 PM
Sting makes no sense. Really.
Thing is, Sting is still massively inferior to the wizzy "equivalent", Cloudburst Strike (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=10798&source=Live). This is the magic version - Cold Snap & Flashfires are other instacast nukes, and all on diff timers. I've played with them - VERY cool :)
Alaene
10-18-2006, 07:08 PM
Wizards and Mages did gain in DPS, but we also gained 67% in healing using our non-renewal lines.
I'm sure I'm setting myself up for a fall, but I don't see a 67% gain as being a fair comparison.
Since Velious, when EQ was still about "see if your raid can handle massive DPS from a single target that maybe, if we're feeling really creative, rampages", druid healing has stayed proportionately the same. In relation to other classes, my gut feel (esp. when you consider "additional tools") is that we've falledn proportionately behind.
Scirocco
10-18-2006, 11:20 PM
The Etheral line is recent (DoD) and can't be traced back to orginal EQ.
Except if you're going to use the numbers you give to draw any conclusions about DPS as opposed to simply looking at a particular line of DDs, you have to look at the top DDs for each class. It doesn't matter whether the line can be traced back to original EQ. (BTW, under THAT standard, we can't give any consideration to our current healing abilities at all, since none of them can be traced back to original EQ....)
In any event, no amount of healing gain offsets a loss in DPS for my druid. I chose a druid back when the destructive side of nature actually meant something. I didn't want to be cleric-lite.
Fenier
10-19-2006, 07:28 AM
In any event, no amount of healing gain offsets a loss in DPS for my druid. I chose a druid back when the destructive side of nature actually meant something. I didn't want to be cleric-lite.
Which is why you posted a great deal about DPS issues in Beta right?
No wait, you didn't actually post anything during beta.
Also, you have an amazing *3* Posts on this forum about Druid related issues in the past 5 months, and one of them was "Ok, no level cap, got it."
I don't mean to be disrespectful, but if you don't want the job, or at least interact with the userbase here on druid issues, then perhaps it's time to step down.
Fenier
10-19-2006, 07:50 AM
I druid healing has stayed proportionately the same. In relation to other classes, my gut feel (esp. when you consider "additional tools") is that we've falledn proportionately behind.
Proportionately the same to the healing power of other classes, or am I misreading?
Fenier
10-19-2006, 08:09 AM
Thing is, Sting is still massively inferior to the wizzy "equivalent"
If shaman are now being balanced against Wizards for quick cast damage, we have other problems which need adressing ;p
Kamion
10-19-2006, 09:10 AM
I agree it should have been titled to what it was showing.
age's bolt may be 14% more than our nuke, but mages generally do ~50% more dps than us in a low healing-burn situation. Wizards do ~80% more dps than us in a burn situation, since TSS.
Thats going by parses, not calculators btw.
Lotharun
10-19-2006, 02:49 PM
Sony wanted to move away from requiring a cleric for content, and more importantly, we asked for it. (http://eq.forums.thedruidsgrove.org/showthread.php?t=3810)
We? I don't think so. Healer Druids might be about all that's left playing the game, and healer Druids certainly had a louder voice but make no mistake -- we DPS Druids do not like what has been done to the class and we did not ask for it.
Lotharun
10-19-2006, 02:50 PM
^^Total irony these days. You say DPS and Druid in the same breath and you get laughed out the raid. It wasn't always that way.
Alaene
10-19-2006, 03:56 PM
Proportionately the same to the healing power of other classes, or am I misreading?
Sorry, the comment related to your comparison figures - druid nuke power vs. druid heal power.
Sony wanted to move away from requiring a cleric for content, and more importantly, we asked for it. (http://eq.forums.thedruidsgrove.org/showthread.php?t=3810)
ission fail.
Fyyr Lu'Storm
10-20-2006, 02:25 AM
Yesterday?
That was 4 and a half years ago.
OBTW, /wave @ Loth.
And thanks for the link, brought back good old memories.
dorda
10-20-2006, 11:02 AM
4 1/2 years ago? LOOOOLLLL
http://www.thenoobcomic.com/daily/strip219.html
Btw i would like to see the ratio between
trash_mob_hp/nukedps=seconds to kill chain nuking.
I really wonder how that changed since original EQ. For sure when i went to HoH first time i felt like my dots were merely giving an itch to the mobs =) Just as a feeling, not parsed anything it seems to me we regained some nuking ground in TSS relative to mob's hp .. not sure. DOTwise, i need 2-4 cycles of 8 stacked dots to kill light-darkblues-icefall yellows. Gimme 15 spell slots and new dots!!!
in regard to healing, i think the meaningful figure is not the raw healed hp but the ratio
R=healed_per_second/trash_mob_dps .. which must be >1 for group healing to work.
I wonder how this ratio changed historically.
Liwsa
10-20-2006, 11:44 AM
Was kiting with a wizard the other day, she crit back to back 20k then a 19k+. My best crit is in the 6500 range. I don't count that as close in the DPS catagory at all. I understand people do not consider crits but 20k vs 6500 OMFG not even close. Not to mention wizards can now nuke without even having stop running!
Kalthanan
10-20-2006, 01:35 PM
I understand that the class rep should be doing their best to keep up with changes to the druid class, including being active in beta, but to just dismiss valid points with an ad hominem attack is just silly.
If you're going to compare classes as they are, don't just compare spell lines that existed back in pre-Kunark days. Compare all of their nukes, compare all of their heals.
Scirocco
10-20-2006, 01:57 PM
I'm sure Fenier would love to not have me espouse the pro-DPS druid going forward.....:)
Of course, I'm not the druid "representative." I'm the "Druid Correspondent," which isn't really the same thing. I don't have any direct line of communication to the Dev Team as a Correspondent, nor do I have any particular authority. Correspondents did two things: maintain the top ten list (which has now gone defunct, but remains to some extent with a Question of the Week, which often go unanswered), and point out to the customer reps threads or topics relevant to the class that appear to have been overlooked.
Not all correspondents have access to the beta boards, and not all correspondents get into every beta. I don't have access to the most recent beta board, for example. Even on older beta boards, however, there were a number of druids, and their input all counted just as much as mine.
I would have hoped that Fenier, who appears to have been an active beta participant this last beta, would have been advocating for a druid with the traditional balance between DPS and healing. Sadly, such does not appear to be the case.
In any event, as you point out, it doesn't change the fundamental truth of the point I made.
Fenier
10-20-2006, 02:22 PM
I'm sure Fenier would love to not have me espouse the pro-DPS druid going forward.....:)
I would have hoped that Fenier, who appears to have been an active beta participant this last beta, would have been advocating for a druid with the traditional balance between DPS and healing. Sadly, such does not appear to be the case.
Apparently you've not been following this thread. (http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/message?board.id=Veterans&message.id=308795&jump=true)
Futhermore, we had most of the spells that were cut until like 4 days prior to launch, and, in the case of Sting, was only a 1500 Damage nuke, with longer recast / cast time till like 1 week before launch.
So while you may not think I am on your side, that is clearly not the case.
Kalthanan
10-20-2006, 03:18 PM
Of course, I'm not the druid "representative." I'm the "Druid Correspondent," which isn't really the same thing.
Then you need someone to change your title on these forums :)
Canisius Ash
10-20-2006, 11:08 PM
I've just rejoined, and caught this thread.
Is a comparison of our DPS vs Healing a valid metric? Opining on how blasters get upped DPS since that what they do? Have you compared a wiz's healing ability vs a druid's?
Just saying - seems like misplaced umbrage.
(and if you're looking at posts, apparently some time in the past earlier post counts were wiped, so I appear as a newbie. Not)
CrucibleShaman
10-22-2006, 03:45 AM
I honestly don't see how some of you can seriously ask to be turned into more of a DPS class.
If the designers tried to shift your class more into that direction, they would have to take away some of your healing power.
With only 3 Priests in the game and 16 classes, there's no way that the game can lose the Druid as a Priest that is able to function as sole healer in all group content.
You aren't getting a boost to one aspect and retain the power in the other one. You can't lose healing power or the game needs a new healing class(maybe you should argue for a new Priest class in EQ?).
Last week I MH'ed in Valdeholm and had a Shaman for back up healing. If it hadn't been for the out of combat resting, there would have been a lot more medding going on. (And the whole group was raid geared.) Point being... The game is losing the Druid as a main healer in group content.
There's another thread here.. We were talking about SotQ and Adrenaline Surge came up. I said I could drastically change what I do in groups and never DPS just to keep Adrenaline Surge up. That day in Valdeholm I did lol. Not one nuke was cast. I had to keep a fast casting heal mem'ed, couldn't even the spare the mana to DPS and the melee mitigation proc I'm sure helped some. Had to use that, because I needed more quicker heals than I could get just waiting on Anguish tunic clicky to refresh. (Which BTW, the clicky wears off way too soon. The buff timer says 1 minute, but it fades before our epic even does.)
I'm not trying to argue that Druids should be more of a DPS class, but as it is-- Before even TSS came out, there has been group content that some people just don't want a Druid as MH for. That's not to say it's impossible for Druids to MH for the Cleric preferred content, but I think it takes a lot of work among other things to be able to-- not to mention a group who will trust a Druid to MH.
Cassea
10-23-2006, 01:43 AM
Which is why you posted a great deal about DPS issues in Beta right?
No wait, you didn't actually post anything during beta.
Also, you have an amazing *3* Posts on this forum about Druid related issues in the past 5 months, and one of them was "Ok, no level cap, got it."
I don't mean to be disrespectful, but if you don't want the job, or at least interact with the userbase here on druid issues, then perhaps it's time to step down.
No disrespect or anything but Fen has a point. It seems like you gave up long ago and moved on. While you may still be playing and/or doing all sorts of things behind the scenes that we do not know about... well the "perception" is that druids have been without a rep for a long time.
Now I understand that the entire rep program for all the classes is not what it used to be but I feel that the Druid Class got what most "vocal" current druids have been asking for and this is a real role in groups and on raids.
Druids are now wanted and I am pretty happy with the class... well at least more happy now than I have been in years. I can heal in near every zone and even do some decent DPS. Perfect? of course not but show me any class in EQ that is happy with everything.
I nuke as much as I heal. I guess if you play a druid that seldom heals then maybe you're not happy but druids have always been half healer half wizard from the start and I feel we are doing pretty well.
I run a parsor program on my laptop and I sure am in the top 5 in DPS in every fight when I'm in DPS mode. I'm not talking about classes... I'm talking about raids!
So I wonder how bad we really have it. Maybe the people I play with are not the same caliber you are playing with but by using our 2-3 big DOTS followed by some chain rains or DD nukes my DPS is pretty impressive.
-Cass
P.S. It seems to me that the issue here is how you play the game. If you only play in the top 2% of the game then I have no idea what I am talking about. I simply do not play the same game that you are playing. I have a more casual play style and do not raid that much. For me the game is better than it ever has. I'm sorry that those in the very upper end of the game are having issues keeping up with other classes. I can assure you, however, that those who play in the other 98% of the game are not having the same issues.
If you checked the beta board druids were so busy discussing about promise renewal (non relevant) and promise reversion or some other non relevant, dead issue. No one really bought up the healing issue or our pathetic nuke. The only "acrhievement" we have made during beta is to lower the mana cost of AS - after a cleric did some math and concluded AS is too mana inefficient, even if compare to desperate renewal.
Kamion
10-23-2006, 02:02 PM
Scirocco,
Why even bother with a reply like that? You're not on trial here. If you think what people are saying is false, ignore it, if you feel they have a valid point act on it. Speaking against a person who's merely a normal player will accomplish nothing.
Having access to beta boards is extremely vital for a class correspondant, being that, that is the time period where stuff is being developed and you want to push your ideas. If you don't get access to those boards automatically, than there's a simple solution - signing up for beta.
But, if you feel that you can't the effort forth to be a succesful class correspondant, than step down. It's nothing personal, but there's no point for you to hold an optional position if you don't wish to preform it 100%.
Not to speak against you or anything, but the best correspondant I've seen since I've been playing EQ was Samanna.
Look how well delevoped her (?) weekly questions were:
http://crucible.samanna.net/viewtopic.php?t=2896&highlight=weekly
Even though that post is old, those words have a lot of resonance being that most of suggestions went live in TSS etc.
That was her being concise, she also had long studies about certain issues that were eventually actted upon.
Eitherway, to say that a class correspondant doesn't have a MAJOR say on what happens to their class is just false, Samanna is proof of that. If you go beyond the minimum of what is expected of you that the devs will be more willing to listen to you.
Lastly, I will give you the benefit of the doubt. You put a lot of effort into stances which happened to be a dead issue.
Ok I was kidding, lastly I'm going to question something you said:
"I'm sure Fenier would love to not have me espouse the pro-DPS druid going forward....."
If you're such a pusher for druid dps than why is our dps -reletive to other classes- about the lowest it has ever been?
Fenier
10-23-2006, 02:43 PM
The only "acrhievement" we have made during beta is to lower the mana cost of AS - after a cleric did some math and concluded AS is too mana inefficient, even if compare to desperate renewal.
Either you were not in beta, or have a poor memory. The issue is several pages of spell balance discussion was nearly pointless when they decided to yank the spells 2 days prior to launch.
Cassea
10-23-2006, 05:05 PM
Don't forget the huge fight to save Reptile... which BTW I just noticed was lowered 30 seconds in duration. I swear it used to last just over 2 mins with full aa's but now it's 1:36.
Fen is correct... alot of spells were pulled days before release and if I recall we were promised a trade from our new regen to one of the more usefull spells that was pulled. Any word on that?
-Cass
Alaene
10-23-2006, 05:14 PM
Don't forget the huge fight to save Reptile... which BTW I just noticed was lowered 30 seconds in duration. I swear it used to last just over 2 mins with full aa's but now it's 1:36.
Reptile has only ever been ~90 seconds for me at max extension AA (although granted I have only a mediocre extension focus).
dorda
10-24-2006, 07:59 AM
I honestly don't see how some of you can seriously ask to be turned into more of a DPS class.
If the designers tried to shift your class more into that direction, they would have to take away some of your healing power.
With only 3 Priests in the game and 16 classes, there's no way that the game can lose the Druid as a Priest that is able to function as sole healer in all group content.
You aren't getting a boost to one aspect and retain the power in the other one. You can't lose healing power or the game needs a new healing class(maybe you should argue for a new Priest class in EQ?).
strange that this is coming from a shaman.. its an old argument.. shamans got improves all around without giving up anything. You beat us in the debuffing, DPS, healing and utility nowadays =). Soloing, grouping raiding you are better.
And what hurts more, in EVERY situation a shaman is a better choice for a group that a druid (and of course better are clerics, wizzies, rangers, berserkers, all kind of tanks, bards, rogues, beastlords if their speciatility is missing) Did i forget any class? Shaman is the worse competition we have though because they can do everything we can, do it better .. and much more.
For all the improves you had you should have had to give up SLOW!!! LOL! Shut up, dont make me angry. Find new arguments.
Btw most druids signed up (and our untrue class description still says) for being a dps/utility/charming class that can heal. In my 20-30's i was a tank support class, a very good one. Shammies were too, but it seems you have been kicked us out of that role too.
Fenier
10-24-2006, 08:10 AM
because they can do everything we can, do it better .. and much more.
There are many things wrong with this statement, namely because they can't do everything we can do, nor can they do alot of the things shared between us as well as we can.
Thier spell lineup for TSS was great compared to ours after the spells we would have liked were cut, because in our case, it removed or limited prime functionality, were the spells they had did not limit theirs nearly as much.
We might have certain balance issues, but we are not anyplace close to as broken as your post makes us sound.
dorda
10-24-2006, 08:18 AM
well they might as well shut up here anyway if not posting something with some sense
if only a shm and dru 75 LFG
if you have a group without slower who do you invite? the shaman, no brainer
if you have the slower you invite the shaman anyway ( more utility, better side healer (hots while dpsing), better indirect dps, equal direct dps, equal MH if needed, can call to corpse). You ask the druid in GL for a TL steppes and you are fine =) Ah yes you lose evac /yawn .. well try to evac a group deep in ashengate for example and hear what they tell you =)
The above choice is the important thing, all details on how the 2 classes do the same things differently are crap.
so when is the dru invited? ahah yes, lets give up healing and populate pok in treeform
Kamion quite well demonstrated how shammies are equal to dru in direct dps (and a lot better in indirect), with your support Fenier.
Lotharun
10-24-2006, 10:50 AM
I honestly don't see how some of you can seriously ask to be turned into more of a DPS class.
Clearly you weren't around in 1999. Go back and compare the damage a Wizard did to Vox as to what a Druid could do to Vox then come back and we'll discuss it.
Fyyr..../wave back at you. Long time. :D
Lotharun
10-24-2006, 04:39 PM
I'm sure Fenier would love to not have me espouse the pro-DPS druid going forward.....:)
Of course, I'm not the druid "representative." I'm the "Druid Correspondent," which isn't really the same thing. I don't have any direct line of communication to the Dev Team as a Correspondent, nor do I have any particular authority. Correspondents did two things: maintain the top ten list (which has now gone defunct, but remains to some extent with a Question of the Week, which often go unanswered), and point out to the customer reps threads or topics relevant to the class that appear to have been overlooked.
Not all correspondents have access to the beta boards, and not all correspondents get into every beta. I don't have access to the most recent beta board, for example. Even on older beta boards, however, there were a number of druids, and their input all counted just as much as mine.
I would have hoped that Fenier, who appears to have been an active beta participant this last beta, would have been advocating for a druid with the traditional balance between DPS and healing. Sadly, such does not appear to be the case.
In any event, as you point out, it doesn't change the fundamental truth of the point I made.
If we have a Druid voice, it's not being heard. One has only to look at the uninspired list of spells and vanilla AA's to realize what an abysmal uninspired expansion this was for Druids. Try and hold out hope for what might come in some-future-patch, but the truth is we were served a steaming pile of crap.
I may be wrong, I may stand alone, but the more I think about it the more I think stances on steriods [not some half assed version of them] are the way to go. Like I said and my mind could be changed, that seems where I think we should headed with the class.
Lotharun
10-24-2006, 04:42 PM
Scirocco,
Why even bother with a reply like that? You're not on trial here.
Because just maybe he's pissed that he put in so much effort to make a difference and largely got ignored? ...just maybe?
Cassea
10-24-2006, 06:02 PM
If we have a Druid voice, it's not being heard. One has only to look at the uninspired list of spells and vanilla AA's to realize what an abysmal uninspired expansion this was for Druids. Try and hold out hope for what might come in some-future-patch, but the truth is we were served a steaming pile of crap.
I may be wrong, I may stand alone, but the more I think about it the more I think stances on steriods [not some half assed version of them] are the way to go. Like I said and my mind could be changed, that seems where I think we should headed with the class.
I like our new spells alot. Dire is very nice, our heals are sweet and the new dot is tops. Second life is nice and our new AOE is a nice upgrade.
IMHO this has been a great expansion for druids. Some of the new zones are heaven for soloing and the port locations are very well spread out. Outdoor zones with animals in them that love druids and allow us to kite with free reign. Someone at SOE clearly had us in mind with this expansion.
The druid beta testers put in long hours and had some great input. I'm sorry you hate everything about this expansion but not everyone (well at least me LOL) feels druids got the shaft.
Perfect? Of course not and I too still hold out hope that SOE will live up to their promise and exchange a spell cut from teh exp with our regen which is nice but not enough of an upgrade to matter.
Did I mention our new aa's? I love them! Maybe the problem is that I'm not comparing classes with a calculator and instead I'm just having a blast in what, to me, is the very best expansion SOE has released in years.
Bravo SOE and keep up the good work! I still am going to fight you on our stances until you proclaim them "officially" dead but so far I like what I see even if a few druids seem to think everything is bad.
-Cass
Cassea
10-24-2006, 06:11 PM
Because just maybe he's pissed that he put in so much effort to make a difference and largely got ignored? ...just maybe?
While I give Scirocco his due in the past it has been a long long time since he has seemingly given up. I am sure, if he wanted, he could have gotten into beta yet he skipped it. Surely this is his right and I will always give him his due for all the hard work he has put into the class in the past but burn out is burn out and if the spark is no longer there then it's time to pass the reign so to speak.
I was very shocked to see that Scirocco was not in the beta. Please don't take this as an attack Scirocco. The way I feel, we are so in debt to past work Scirocco has performed on our behalf that we will always owe him big time.
And in general... please stop saying that Druid's got the shaft in the last expansion BTW. Not everyone feels the same way. I happen to love the new expansion and our new spells and aa's. I too was disappointed that some were cut but far too many druids spent hundreds of hours in beta representing the class to have this crap tossed on us. You don't like how it turned out then make darn sure you put in the work on the next one yourself but stop dumping on those who did try their best.
-Cass
Alaene
10-24-2006, 06:23 PM
And in general... please stop saying that Druid's got the shaft in the last expansion BTW. Not everyone feels the same way. I happen to love the new expansion and our new spells and aa's. I too was disappointed that some were cut but far too many druids spent hundreds of hours in beta representing the class to have this crap tossed on us. You don't like how it turned out then make darn sure you put in the work on the next one yourself but stop dumping on those who did try their best.
-Cass
I don't think people's perception is that druid's are rubbish but that, relatively speaking (ie from a class balance perspective), druid's didn't make out very well.
Sure, not everyone may feel that way - but if you don't think druid's lost even more ground to other classes with TSS, I'd ask you to closely look at some of the upgrades other classes got by comparison.
The easiest class to compare to is shaman. And honestly, between spells and AA, they're kicking dirt in the druid's face from a balance perspective. I don't think that's an unreasonable or emotional statement - it's objective and fact based, and there are threads galore justifying it. It just doesn't seem to be a bother to SOE.
Fenier
10-24-2006, 06:35 PM
Because just maybe he's pissed that he put in so much effort to make a difference and largely got ignored? ...just maybe?
I don't mean this offensive at all.
He didn't post in PoR Beta. He didn't post in TSS beta, and aside from this thread, the last Druid Focused Debate he was involved in on this forum was in January of 2006.
Personally, I do not consider that putting forth the effort which should go with the position. I do have a lot of respect for Siccoro for things he's done in the past, but over the past 10 months, we've not seen much out of him.
TSS has been live for a month now. In 3 Months or so the next beta cycle will be starting. If we have specific detailed issues which we would like to see addressed, then really it's going to require combined effort here with an active CC giving their opinions and providing support.
Because of this, I do not feel asking him to either take a more active part, or let someone else who is interested in doing so, all that out of line.
-Fenier
Fenier
10-24-2006, 06:38 PM
The druid beta testers put in long hours and had some great input. I'm sorry you hate everything about this expansion but not everyone (well at least me LOL) feels druids got the shaft.
If I had to say, the two best spells we got in TSS thanks to the spell cuts where infact, Second Life (shared with shaman) and Adren Surge (for those lacking high speed focuses).
Skin to Vines and Winter's Flame were two spells I had hoped would turn out way better then they did.
Spirit of the White Wolf was our only new AA. The rest were upgrades to previous AA lines.
We didn't get the shaft (Hi Enchanters) but we didn't come out anywhere near as strong as I would have said we would have prior to the spell cuts.
dorda
10-25-2006, 07:35 AM
In 3 Months or so the next beta cycle will be starting.
dont count on it too much .. i think SOE merged together the beta for this and next expansion's spells .. (then they took away the next expansion's spells) so thats what we'll be seeing probably =)
yself, i love this expansion .. man when OOW came out i could do NOTHING solo .. nor get a group.. just root rotting crap mobs in NC forever..
zones are well designed for us druids, and we can use again a few of our skills and abilities (root CC, pulling is possible even in top zones like ashengate if u time well). And casuals got quite a few hunting places and a reason to hunt (spell upgrades, some decent gear in group content). Some raid-level tactics were added to group content too (think direwind current with DT, the permarooted mushrooms in caves in direwind .. this requires some thought).
The abundance of tasks that you solo is great .. again, adds some goal to soloing .. and while at it, someone else is doing the same stuff and you suddently make a pickup group on the spot, then others come and join. Man I didnt see this playstyle so widely since Kunark or Luclin! Great job. No more endless waiting to form a viable group to do a 5 hours mission. Much more agile.
Yet, power balance between classes is simply not there.
Fenier
10-25-2006, 07:37 AM
Two devs other then Prathun have stated they will be adding the other spells back in. So I am going to give them the benifit of the doubt.
Secondly, not all beta druid issues are spell related. You have to factor AA< items, etc into it.
dorda
10-25-2006, 07:50 AM
too fast Fenier =) you know i always edit posts a few minutes after they go live =)
Lotharun
10-25-2006, 10:30 AM
I don't mean this offensive at all.
He didn't post in PoR Beta. He didn't post in TSS beta, and aside from this thread, the last Druid Focused Debate he was involved in on this forum was in January of 2006.
Personally, I do not consider that putting forth the effort which should go with the position. I do have a lot of respect for Siccoro for things he's done in the past, but over the past 10 months, we've not seen much out of him.
TSS has been live for a month now. In 3 Months or so the next beta cycle will be starting. If we have specific detailed issues which we would like to see addressed, then really it's going to require combined effort here with an active CC giving their opinions and providing support.
Because of this, I do not feel asking him to either take a more active part, or let someone else who is interested in doing so, all that out of line.
-Fenier
No offense taken. I know where he was when I left the game and he was putting in a lot of effort. I come back several years later he's still in the scene, I guess just not as deeply. What I do know for certain, is that Druid kill power[burst damge, sustained damage] has diminished greatly from when I left. It aslo appears that their high end heals have not kept up with the top end hitpoints of players. I look at what Bards can do, what Pallys can do and I think if them, why not Druids too.
I'm playing three online games right now and when I compare how well those game designers interwove the classes are in the other games I play I just shake me head at what's been done with this one. Druid in eq drew much of it's desire from it's run buffs and ports, and that's all long since gone. They tried to make us a debuffer, healer class when 50% of us didn't want to be. Most of those 50% are gone and the rest are split between happy as a clam and some form of disgruntled.
I want to be happy for a game I once loved, but it's really hard to be excited about the game and a class when I see where it started, was in the cabage days and is now. It's very disapointing. Sony needs to take a bigger swing at the problem. They have nothing to lose....
Rajolae
10-25-2006, 12:35 PM
I run a parsor program on my laptop and I sure am in the top 5 in DPS in every fight when I'm in DPS mode. I'm not talking about classes... I'm talking about raids!
You do realize that for parses to be accurate that you have to have melee spam/other people's spells displayed and be in range to see said spam, otherwise it never gets writen to the log file, right? If you said yes and actually practice it, your guild's melees must be asleep and not turning attack on or are trying to punch the mob/using rusty weapons and your casters must be doing the casting equivalent, as there is no way you come close to being top 5 DPS in raids.
Penasi
10-25-2006, 02:55 PM
Correct Raj. There is no possible way a druid will be anywhere near the top of the dps chain in a raid unless they are: a) raiding with significantly lower level players & much worse gear or b) The rest of the raid is asleep and just not attacking.
y druids dps is on par with my bards - and we know how uber the dps of a bard is.
Cassea
10-25-2006, 05:49 PM
You do realize that for parses to be accurate that you have to have melee spam/other people's spells displayed and be in range to see said spam, otherwise it never gets writen to the log file, right? If you said yes and actually practice it, your guild's melees must be asleep and not turning attack on or are trying to punch the mob/using rusty weapons and your casters must be doing the casting equivalent, as there is no way you come close to being top 5 DPS in raids.
Well I am talking about burst damage to mobs that go down fast and yes I am in the top 5 and no the melees were not asleep or sucky. We can put on some pretty impressive damage in bursts (as can other casters) and I know I have to be in range which is why I parse it in melee range when I do this.
Now for long fights of course I cannot keep up but then I switch to full DOTs and I'm on heals anyway.
y point was that we now have a purpose. We have been asking and asking for a role and now I am more wanted than I ever have been.
I'm pretty happy and if they add some of our missing spells I'll be even more happy :)
-Cass
Alaene
10-25-2006, 06:19 PM
Well I am talking about burst damage to mobs that go down fast and yes I am in the top 5 and no the melees were not asleep or sucky. We can put on some pretty impressive damage in bursts (as can other casters) and I know I have to be in range which is why I parse it in melee range when I do this.
Now for long fights of course I cannot keep up but then I switch to full DOTs and I'm on heals anyway.
I'm not picking at you specifically, but I feel that druids are at their WORST in "burn" situations. I have no high-mana high-yield damage spells, I can't dump a big DPS disc like a melee can... the only time my damage adds up is over the very long term where the (relative) efficiency of druid DPS comes in to play. Even then, it's nothing like as efficient as some other classes can come up with.
Rajolae
10-25-2006, 06:25 PM
Well I am talking about burst damage to mobs that go down fast and yes I am in the top 5 and no the melees were not asleep or sucky. We can put on some pretty impressive damage in bursts (as can other casters) and I know I have to be in range which is why I parse it in melee range when I do this.
Now for long fights of course I cannot keep up but then I switch to full DOTs and I'm on heals anyway.
y point was that we now have a purpose. We have been asking and asking for a role and now I am more wanted than I ever have been.
I'm pretty happy and if they add some of our missing spells I'll be even more happy :)
-Cass
Right, so your melees / other casters suck or are asleep, you don't have the spam turned on, or you are lying.
Kamion
10-25-2006, 11:25 PM
Right, so your melees / other casters suck or are asleep, you don't have the spam turned on, or you are lying.
Or... Cass used intensity vet AA on a p3 rock!
Fenier
10-26-2006, 12:17 AM
Depends greatly on which classes are present and their respective AA, Gear, Spell Levels.
Rajolae
10-26-2006, 03:46 AM
Depends greatly on which classes are present and their respective AA, Gear, Spell Levels.
So she raids with level 65 people with next to nil for AAs / nothing but clerics?
Fenier
10-26-2006, 04:11 AM
Not saying she is, but she might be.
Her statement may very well be true in relation to who she raids with.
Granted her statment is not typically true, but we don't have enough information either. The statment needs way more context (Level of guild, content in referance, etc).
-Fenier
Cassea
10-26-2006, 08:28 PM
Well thanks for the kind words.... not!
When a mob goes down in 30 seconds and I chain cast rains and nukes I do pretty good damage in relation to the other 30+ people.
We do not have Wizards but do have a few mages. We do not "suck" or maybe we do in relation to you but my point still stands.
In a longer fight I am not in the top 5 but it is very well clear that we do not play the same game.
I can tell you now that those who play a more casual game may have less gear, aa's and abilities but this does not make us "suck"
These are very offensive statements to me.
I play EQ alot but just not the same way you may play. Does this make me suck or somehow an unskilled player? Maybe to some. I can assure you that the people I group with are also skilled but once again they are not hard core raiders.
Perhaps this may mean that the Druid Class is not suited for the best of the best but the class works well for "average" players.
I dunno what nore to say. I do NOT lie nor do I appreciate being called such. My facts are facts and the parser was done correctly.
Game over
-Cass
Fenier
10-26-2006, 08:36 PM
I don't think anyone was attempting to offend you.
What you are expressing is typical for you, simply isn't for most people.
Juniper
10-27-2006, 02:08 AM
Parser does not correctly list Necromancer damage.
Pretty sure, unless they were asleep or you don't have any, they out DPS'd you.
Again, without knowing raid makeup, I can't say anything more specific. Fenier didn't call you a liar, just that for a Druid to appear in the top 5 for DPS is a little unusual and atypical of many posters here.
In a 30 second fight I can't even get 3 spells off. Lucky to get off 2 before trash mobs die. If I debuff, say cold, then try cold nuke, that's it unles only an off tank is on it. Otherwise 50% of the time my nuke is too late. If I decide not to debuff then I get resists most of the time. I feel almost useless when running thru trash mobs on raids. I just hope there is someone to heal that a cleric hasnt already used some group heal on while they watch tv.
dorda
10-27-2006, 10:28 AM
eheh just chat and slack .. =)
i usually take aggro a few times to make the raid believe i am doing something (and that why i try to maximize ac :)
(kidding :)
Kamdaru
10-30-2006, 06:34 PM
Dang i wanna be in the top 5 too ....
However, i am more like vekx ... im lucky to get a nuke off and if it actually gets to be casted before said 30 second mob is dead, pray its not resisted.
Our mages are critting for ~14k now, and i have a good mage friend that has nuked for over 16k crits more than once.
CoA .... although i like the main mob fights, the trash is an auto follow event almost for me, clerics are nuking too. Not sure about you all, but CoA is pretty much an F8 zone for us on trash anymore.
So your "every fight" actually mean "every trash mob".... hahahahaha.
Kensmith
10-31-2006, 12:13 PM
I left Sting out since it remains to be seen if we can get one of our spells to become comparable and restore balance.
ate, after the great nuke nerf with the promise of a new "Stance" option,which is still nowhere to be seen, what makes you think the devs can be bothered to alter one of our spells to get us still one step away from where we should be ?
Im not being funny or anything but the druid class, its role in the game and its evolviong state is possibly SoE's biggest nightmare and unfortunatley they keep missing the mark or sometimes just plain ignoring it.
Kudos to you if you do manage to get the important things changed but i wouldnt hold your breath.
Kenny
Rajolae
11-01-2006, 12:24 PM
So your "every fight" actually mean "every trash mob".... hahahahaha.
Even then it's still not likely, as others have said, it's hard as hell to get more than two, maybe three, nukes off on a trash mob before it is dead. Which, then again, could go back to the slacking/sleeping/undergeared melees / caster DPS statement I made earlier.
Rajolae
11-01-2006, 12:33 PM
Mate, after the great nuke nerf with the promise of a new "Stance" option,which is still nowhere to be seen, what makes you think the devs can be bothered to alter one of our spells to get us still one step away from where we should be ?
Im not being funny or anything but the druid class, its role in the game and its evolviong state is possibly SoE's biggest nightmare and unfortunatley they keep missing the mark or sometimes just plain ignoring it.
Kudos to you if you do manage to get the important things changed but i wouldnt hold your breath.
Kenny
You mean the changes that occured and made our non ancient ice nuke more efficient than the fire nuke, which was made to do more damage than aswell as making it more efficient than the nonancient ice nuke pre-changes, and made our ancient ice nuke much more efficient and changed rains spells to be much less resistant? Oh right, you don't understand what the word nerf means and implies, gotcha.
Netura
11-01-2006, 01:57 PM
Not sure about you all, but CoA is pretty much an F8 zone for us on trash anymore.
Yea. Whenever I am pulling anguish (playing my monk) I generally bring pulls of 6-9 mobs at a time. I see it as if I can take 3 at a time, without a mezzer, in a group of 6, then we should be able to do at least 10 at a time with a few mezzers :)
Zacory
11-01-2006, 06:06 PM
OK - I read all 5 pages of this thread and wish to put in my 2 cents. Please keep in mind that I speak as a Casual player.
Note: Dang I just typed a lot. Don't be too mad. :-)
To respond to the original topic, yesterday I made a Druid to take advantage of ports (probably started my druid around the Luclin era). Then PoP came out and that advantage was lessened to a large degree. Throughout the expansions, many AA's were introduced and spell upgrades which made all of us stronger and for that I am pleased. But along with spell upgrades, I think the relative power of each class was also improved and there for the balance between Druids and other classes got skewed. Clerics always healed better, DoTs from Shamans and Necros always topped the DPS, and Nukes from Mages and Wizards were always tops as well. Imo, Druids were always hybrids that can do some of each talent and that point still remains.
For today, in terms of TSS - I'm quite pleased with the expansion as a casual player. Since I don't raid much and haven't been in an active guild that takes advantage of the new expansions, I'm far behind in terms of gear and spells. I still have yet to get my DODH or POR spells or even lvl 70 OoW spells for that matter. So for the new spells in TSS to be vendor bought (or the first tier anyway) that was very helpful to me. The new zones with upper level content that is snareable, doesn't summon, and druid friendly on occasion is also a welcome aspect.
Now I understand that many druids have higher aspirations and achievements. I totally admit the lack of new expansion spells or upper level raid gear is completely my fault for making certain choices in how I play the game. I just want to convey that I as a Casual druid I am quite happy with most aspects of the most recent expansion (TSS).
As for comparing DPS, I ALWAYS out-DPS my partner. But my partner isn't named BOO BOO for nothing. :-) Seriously, I do read quite a few posts here on TDG and have been impressed with the resourcefulness and dedication that many of you have shown in comparing abilities between different classes. It's good that our community has so many adept druids that put forth so much effort and keep our class in tune with others. I applaud you all for the work that has taken place and is still going on.
But for me, EQ is still a game that I choose not to take to an extreme nor complain when things don't go my way. Shamans got a nice nuke that greatly improves their burst dmg? Good for them! A few druid spells were removed from the expansion release for what ever reason? I'm sure quite a few of you are not happy about that. Hopefully the developers will continue to test them and add them later. Thanks to those who continue to work with them in beta for a resolution!
For a comparison... Sure it would have been nice to have milk with my Oreo cookies. But the cookies still taste good even without the drink! And if the milk happens to be poured then the glass accidentally gets spilled on the carpet.. well ya, I'd be mad too. But there's no use in crying over spilled milk. Just clean it up and perhaps take precautions so it doesn't happen again. In the mean time, I'm still enjoying my Oreo cookies! MMM.. Oreos, er, I mean, TSS is a good thing for me. :-)
CrucibleShaman
11-02-2006, 08:25 AM
Clearly you weren't around in 1999. Go back and compare the damage a Wizard did to Vox as to what a Druid could do to Vox then come back and we'll discuss it.
Fyyr..../wave back at you. Long time. :D
This is funny, because you were unlucky enough to direct the statement at somebody who is one of the few people left in this game who *was* indeed playing this game in 1999.
You are picking Vox as your target in order to exclude Ice Comet from the picture I assume?
Not like it has any relevance at all how much damage you could do to a 32k HP mob in 1999, because if *you* actually played the game in 1999, then you'd know how much this game has shifted and changed.
Look at the game today and tell me that removing 1 healer by turning it into another DPS class would actually be feasible. I know that this is not what the majority of you wants either, but my post was a responce to those who seemed to want the Druid class shifted in that direction.
You already contribute indirect DPS through your AC, Fire, Cold debuffs and Damage Shields. I am not including the epic, because I have never thought that items should be looked at when considering class balance, as items are usually made obsolete over time. The epic might be lasting you longer, but they can not afford keeping it a mandatory tool either, so that you can expect new items with better effects than the epic entering the game in the future.
As far as Direct DPS goes I do not see a problem with Druids as a healing class. Thus comparing the Druid of 2006 to the Druid of 1999, wen healing was not as critical as it is nowadays is a major mistake.
Alaene
11-02-2006, 01:45 PM
This is funny, because you were unlucky enough to direct the statement at somebody who is one of the few people left in this game who *was* indeed playing this game in 1999.
You are picking Vox as your target in order to exclude Ice Comet from the picture I assume?
Not like it has any relevance at all how much damage you could do to a 32k HP mob in 1999, because if *you* actually played the game in 1999, then you'd know how much this game has shifted and changed.
Look at the game today and tell me that removing 1 healer by turning it into another DPS class would actually be feasible. I know that this is not what the majority of you wants either, but my post was a responce to those who seemed to want the Druid class shifted in that direction.
You already contribute indirect DPS through your AC, Fire, Cold debuffs and Damage Shields. I am not including the epic, because I have never thought that items should be looked at when considering class balance, as items are usually made obsolete over time. The epic might be lasting you longer, but they can not afford keeping it a mandatory tool either, so that you can expect new items with better effects than the epic entering the game in the future.
As far as Direct DPS goes I do not see a problem with Druids as a healing class. Thus comparing the Druid of 2006 to the Druid of 1999, wen healing was not as critical as it is nowadays is a major mistake.
This reads like hypocrisy to me. How do you justify the Shaman's relative DPS power to the druid's, given that both are "healing" classes in much more of a sense than they were back in original EQ?
You say Druids are fine, but they are equivalent level healers to shaman and DPS significantly more poorly. Doesn't make sense.
Lotharun
11-02-2006, 05:11 PM
Look at the game today and tell me that removing 1 healer by turning it into another DPS class would actually be feasible. I know that this is not what the majority of you wants either, but my post was a responce to those who seemed to want the Druid class shifted in that direction.
.
.
.
As far as Direct DPS goes I do not see a problem with Druids as a healing class. Thus comparing the Druid of 2006 to the Druid of 1999, wen healing was not as critical as it is nowadays is a major mistake.
Your bias. Allow me to help.
We have about Two Hundred Thousand EQ subscribers left playing this game and I swear every Druid still around posts here or did at one time. The trouble with the EQ Druid community lacking a common voice was that it was divided down the middle between the two roles. Half were specced Evocation and half Alteration with play style preferences that matched. I say was because Sony made up their minds that Druids were going to be a Healer/Debuffer class, in part to lower the reliance the game had on Clerics. Which by the way, never happened. Have a raid without Clerics…never going to happen. Have a raid without Druids…no problem.
That's not how you balance game mechanics and there in lies the fatal flaw wrapped in a slippery slope from which this game will never recover to appeal to the masses. On top of that you take what once was the most popular class in the game [by miles] and pigeon hole it into a role 50% of the players didn't ask for. Then give their utility to the masses through books that port you and [like many other caster classes] give out items that proc your coveted abilities; make monsters summon you, run faster than you; make them unsnarable or unrootable. Give them more hit points than ever before, scaled far ahead of your ability to maintain the pace at which you used to kill them. Add to this, classes that used to lag behind have now equaled or surpassed you and the ones which were ahead are now far, far ahead. What do you have left?
What resulted is that many of the DPS Druids are gone. DPS Druid is now an Oxymoron where it once meant something. What we have -- what remains -- is what you see here on this board. For you to try and make sense of this with your classic EQ style class bigotry is exactly in line with why this game is beyond repair. You don't get it. You never will get it -- and for all intents for as long as it's not your class you really don't want to.
Rajolae
11-03-2006, 08:57 PM
You already contribute indirect DPS through your AC, Fire, Cold debuffs and Damage Shields.
We affect healing with our debuffs more than damage, but as for the DS... What the ****?
Tejaye
11-04-2006, 11:13 AM
Lutharun.....your post is right on the money. As of today, SOE leaves no benefit to the druid class vs others.
AlwindSiafu
11-04-2006, 11:35 AM
Lutharun.....your post is right on the money. As of today, SOE leaves no benefit to the druid class vs others.
Seems a bit "not true". Although druids are master of nothing, we can still do a little bit of everything. If we were able to heal like clerics and still attain our other attributes, who the hell would play a cleric. If we could nuke like wizzies and have the same heal and dot spells, who would make a wizzy? SOE has the dubious task of making sure that no class becomes too powerful nor makes another class obsolete. The benefit you say does not exist is the simple fact that druids can do a little bit of everything. There are a dozen or so other classes to pick from. If you think you're being ripped off...GO PLAY ANOTHER CLASS!
Scirocco
11-04-2006, 02:56 PM
Funny how I keep seeing the same unsupported arguments for years and years.
Seems a bit "not true". Although druids are master of nothing, we can still do a little bit of everything.
Got news for you....EVERY class can pretty much do a little bit of everything. This argument may have had some truth 7 years ago, but it hasn't been even close to being correct for some time.
If we were able to heal like clerics and still attain our other attributes, who the hell would play a cleric. If we could nuke like wizzies and have the same heal and dot spells, who would make a wizzy?
I haven't seen any legitimate druid ask to heal like a cleric, or have the DPS of a wizard. I've seen posts saying we should be at 75% to 80% of each, and I agree.
Honestly, if I were starting a new character right now, I would start a wizard. A wizard currently has vastly superior DPS, and pretty much all of the utility of a druid (more so than the druid I started way back when, in fact).
SOE has the dubious task of making sure that no class becomes too powerful nor makes another class obsolete. The benefit you say does not exist is the simple fact that druids can do a little bit of everything.
Once again, you overlook the fact that every class can do a little bit of everything. A druid has no advantage whatsoever in that department. If SOE has the job of making sure that no class becomes obsolete, well, looks like they're falling down on the job as far as keeping druids from becoming obsolete.
There are a dozen or so other classes to pick from. If you think you're being ripped off...GO PLAY ANOTHER CLASS!
You may be new to the game, but I'll tell you something...after 7 or so years playing this same character in this same game, I have absolutely no inclination or desire to play another class. I want to play the same druid that pretty much is "ME" in this game.
oreover, it is undisputed that EQ is very long in the tooth. It is in its twilight years. If I were inclined to start a new character or play another class, it wouldn't be in EQ.
Lotharun
11-05-2006, 01:43 PM
Honestly, if I were starting a new character right now, I would start a wizard.
The quintessential Druid Sobe Silvertree did just that.
Erianaiel
11-05-2006, 02:24 PM
Moreover, it is undisputed that EQ is very long in the tooth. It is in its twilight years. If I were inclined to start a new character or play another class, it wouldn't be in EQ.
I have a strong suspicion that those druids who prefer to deal damage over being (main) healers are going to leave for Vanguard. Similar game style to Everquest but druids that are damage dealers first and have a (very) little bit of healing and utility on the side. Much better look to the game too. How well the game actually plays remains to be seen of course.
On a related note, I recall reading some study by Sony that roughly 7 percent of the characters in the game is a druid. That would be about average for the number of classes overall. However, I am curious if it is possible to find out how many druids actually are above level 60, and how many are above level 70?
Eri
AlwindSiafu
11-06-2006, 12:12 PM
You may be new to the game
Nope. Been a druid for six years.
Gaennen
11-06-2006, 01:53 PM
Nope. Been a druid for six years.
Then you can see how stupid it is to say "if you don't like it start another character"?
If you have been playing 6 years would you just start again?
AlwindSiafu
11-06-2006, 04:02 PM
Then you can see how stupid it is to say "if you don't like it start another character"?
If you have been playing 6 years would you just start again?
Nope, I sure wouldn't. However, I'm not as disgusted and obviously upset as some of our other readers/posters. Rather than see them have anurisms over just how bad our class is, I figured they could spare themselves the sleepless nights by making another character.
No need to insinuate that the notion was stupid just because you are not in agreeance. Good day.
There are a dozen or so other classes to pick from. If you think you're being ripped off...GO PLAY ANOTHER CLASS!
What makes you think that just because someone is disgruntled with the direction SoE has taken druids means they should shut up and go play another class? If that were the case, I fear all our storm druids would quit and leave only the healer types. And that would indeed be a sad day. Druids who see a discrepancy in the dps strength of the class as opposed to the other classes have every right to raise a fuss and try to get it changed. Just because you do not agree doesn't mean you're right or wrong. Just that you see it differently. Don't diminish the rights of those who disagree with you to seek out change. And that is exactly what you did by saying "go play another class".
And for Alyn....
/CACKLE
Scirocco
11-06-2006, 07:05 PM
Nope, I sure wouldn't. However, I'm not as disgusted and obviously upset as some of our other readers/posters. Rather than see them have anurisms over just how bad our class is, I figured they could spare themselves the sleepless nights by making another character.
I could as easily advise you to avoid having an aneurism over reading posts of experienced druids unhappy with the changes in the class by not reading these posts.
Now, where did that Troll-Be-Gone spray go to....?
Gaennen
11-07-2006, 04:32 AM
Nope, I sure wouldn't. However, I'm not as disgusted and obviously upset as some of our other readers/posters. Rather than see them have anurisms over just how bad our class is, I figured they could spare themselves the sleepless nights by making another character.
No need to insinuate that the notion was stupid just because you are not in agreeance. Good day.
Ok, we'll go with ignorant instead.
dorda
11-07-2006, 07:39 AM
yes at this point i WOULD play another class if SOE would give me the option of rerolling with equivalent level/aa's/gear. In this case your argument would be valid.
Unfortunately SOE doesn't, so we are pretty much stuck with what we got. Shut up the nonsense plz.
its a few days i dont login ... mybe i am healing from EQ again?=)
Tejaye
11-08-2006, 06:49 PM
I went into a Wizard forum.....this class feels they are left behind as well.
Gaennen
11-09-2006, 04:24 AM
These wizards seem quite happy
http://www.graffe.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44418
Was I asleep or something during the whole "Wizards aren't wanted for exp groups" thing? Dang, I think I feel cheated inviting all those Wizards to my groups now.
:rolleyes:
Kamion
11-09-2006, 08:45 AM
Tell me a time in EQ history where any class had absolutly no complaining. This is the internet, when there's nothing to complain about, trust me - someone will find something to complain about. But that doesn't mean they're right.
Tejaye
11-09-2006, 10:01 AM
So after reading all this....seriously......if a newbie asked.......is a Wizard a Druid plus?
I mean Wizards can quad kite (group snare,etc)....so they can solo all they want. Port all they want. Then if a group needs them they do more damage than a druid. Sow is easy to buy either by gettin potions or travelers boots from gnome in Sol A.
So if you are a Druid who doesnt care about healing..............can't a Wizard level up faster than a druid and get more out of the game and groups, etc....than a druid?
I used to think Wizards were mages without pets.
But since Wizards can solo "just as good as a Druid", level up just as fast as a druid..... and Group "better" than a Druid.....and port as well......why be a Druid, why not a Wizard?
dorda
11-09-2006, 10:18 AM
I think SOE did just too many classes for the roles in the game, and now they dont know what to do with them... to make things even worse they reduced the possible roles and player options in game.
For example using nukes for dispatching rooted mobs quickly while tank holds the main mob is just crazy gameplay now for example if u are not a 30knuke wizzie .. was very different in LDONs. And only if the add doesnt summon. So many examples of reduced gameplay
Netura
11-09-2006, 10:43 AM
I used to think Wizards were mages without pets.
But since Wizards can solo "just as good as a Druid", level up just as fast as a druid..... and Group "better" than a Druid.....and port as well......why be a Druid, why not a Wizard?
Because Wizards get zero heals; and druids get quite a few.
Because Druids aren't an all-dps class.
Because a group with a druid and a wizard functions better than a group with just a wizard (through the use of fire debuffs and epic 1.5+ clicks).
Because a druid can cure the group of various detrimental effects; along with buff HP/Mana regen, Damage shield, regen, and a slight damage modifier.
Because a druid tanks a whole hell of a lot better than a wizard.
Gaennen
11-09-2006, 11:38 AM
I think SOE did just too many classes for the roles in the game, and now they dont know what to do with them... to make things even worse they reduced the possible roles and player options in game.
I think Dorda has hit the nail on the head here, too many classes not enough roles.
Rajolae
11-09-2006, 08:23 PM
Because Wizards get zero heals; and druids get quite a few.
So essentially we are just (Wizards - 2) + (Clerics - 1)? I say (Wizard - 2) since our DPS is jack compared to their's.
Because Druids aren't an all-dps class.
No, but the problem is most groups want druids to heal, not to DPS. Even then, not all group will accept druids as healers, and in other cases it's just not efficient to take the druid to heal at all.
Because a group with a druid and a wizard functions better than a group with just a wizard (through the use of fire debuffs and epic 1.5+ clicks).
When's the last time a druid was ever invited because of their epic click? Right around the ass crack of never? Druids also are not the only class that can debuff FR.
Because a druid can cure the group of various detrimental effects; along with buff HP/Mana regen, Damage shield, regen, and a slight damage modifier.
So can a myriad of other classes for all of those listed things, and <STRIKE>most</STRIKE> all of them better than us. Regen shouldn't even be listed. As for damage modifier, which one? Skin to Vines which currently doesn't do half of what we were told in beta that it would do and cannot be recast on mobs if it fades, or Icefall Breath which doesn't lower AC like our other ice debuffs do? Not only that, the mod that they have is insignificant.
<S></S>
Because a druid tanks a whole hell of a lot better than a wizard.
Uhhhhh, I guess so if tanking seven or greater expansion old content really matters that much, sure. Either one of us quickly becomes a grease spot on newer **** unless we are being chain healed and someone gets aggro off of us.
.
Netura
11-09-2006, 11:32 PM
Because Wizards get zero heals; and druids get quite a few.
So essentially we are just (Wizards - 2) + (Clerics - 1)? I say (Wizard - 2) since our DPS is jack compared to their's.
no
Because Druids aren't an all-dps class.
No, but the problem is most groups want druids to heal, not to DPS. Even then, not all group will accept druids as healers, and in other cases it's just not efficient to take the druid to heal at all.
learn to group with people who aren't idiots
Because a group with a druid and a wizard functions better than a group with just a wizard (through the use of fire debuffs and epic 1.5+ clicks).
When's the last time a druid was ever invited because of their epic click? Right around the ass crack of never? Druids also are not the only class that can debuff FR.
I've been invited to multiple groups on my druid, solely because of debuffing, occasional nukes/heals, and 2.0 click. Then again, I've done a lot of groups with a mage/necro/wizard; and they love that stuff. Go group with some open minded people and see what happens.
Because a druid can cure the group of various detrimental effects; along with buff HP/Mana regen, Damage shield, regen, and a slight damage modifier.
So can a myriad of other classes for all of those listed things, and most all of them better than us. Regen shouldn't even be listed. As for damage modifier, which one? Skin to Vines which currently doesn't do half of what we were told in beta that it would do and cannot be recast on mobs if it fades, or Icefall Breath which doesn't lower AC like our other ice debuffs do? Not only that, the mod that they have is insignificant.
Get over it. Go play another class; if you don't understand what a druid can do by now, you just need to play a new class.
Because a druid tanks a whole hell of a lot better than a wizard.
Uhhhhh, I guess so if tanking seven or greater expansion old content really matters that much, sure. Either one of us quickly becomes a grease spot on newer **** unless we are being chain healed and someone gets aggro off of us.
Take a joke.
.
Sildan
11-10-2006, 06:13 AM
.... Because wizards don't have Booboo!!!!!!
Kamion
11-10-2006, 08:52 AM
I tank frostcrypt ;(
Tilluen
11-10-2006, 10:24 AM
Any wizard who isn't reasonably happy with the wizard class since TSS is simply a malcontent and should be ignored (the loss of good DD focus items is a gripe all nuking classes can agree on).
I have both a wizard and a druid. They are both great contributors to my group and I wouldn't want to be without either one.
Netura
11-10-2006, 10:34 AM
.... Because wizards don't have Booboo!!!!!!
how could i have forgotten this one!!!!!?
Tejaye
11-10-2006, 12:33 PM
Basically........Can Norrath survive well without Druids = Most Definitely YES
Can Norrath Survive without Wizards = NO
There's your answer!!
Netura
11-10-2006, 02:42 PM
Basically........Can Norrath survive well without Druids = Most Definitely YES
Can Norrath Survive without Wizards = NO
There's your answer!!
wrong. Norrath could survive well without the existence of either class.
Travin
11-10-2006, 08:29 PM
As i said in my previous post... its a game and enjoy what the character is there for.. and not make it what is not ment to be, and as for groups come one its about game faction, if your good at what you do and not a prick to others you will garantee have a group the second you log in .... you can't expect one class to be the same as the other or even close to it.. it's impossible.. all classes have there own jobs and ther own abilities.. quit whining because this or that didn't go your way in the newer expansions... its a game and enjoy it for what it is....
and if you can't do that then it just might be that time to hang up your characters and look for a new game to play, and adventually critisize about there class abilities....
Lol, I wonder who will be the first to dissect that little post :tongue:
Welcome to the boards, BTW!
Scirocco
11-11-2006, 06:28 PM
No point, really.
Those players with that "go with the flow" mindset (don't protest any changes to the class or try to have changes made to your class, just go with whatever SOE does and if you don't like it, leave) are not going to listen to anything to the contrary.
They just have a radically different mindset from me and those like me who want druids to be what they were when we chose our characters 7 or so years ago. And not being long-term veterans of the game, they have no ability to comprehend how a statement like "just choose another character" is just not possible.
As long as they don't actively get in the way of my advocating for my class, or jump into the middle of threads where such advocacy and debate is ongoing and try to tell us to shut up, I don't have a real problem with the "don't worry, be happy" crowd.
In this case, you have to get past some pretty fractured grammar to get the point of that post, which turns out to be just a tired refrain of "don't worry, be happy." As I said above, no point in responding.
Travin
11-11-2006, 06:53 PM
Well i can understand where playing a druid for a long time just like any class, i played a rogue for 8 years been here since beta, and so i know what its like but as for me ..
i dont look to deep into it its a game and i just play it for what it is...
i got tired a long while ago trying to make things differant and well i just said screw it, decided to just play the game then trying to change it...
But don't get me wrong i see where lot of players come from when you have played a character so long and then it gets changed down the road...
Rajolae
11-13-2006, 12:39 AM
Because Wizards get zero heals; and druids get quite a few.
So essentially we are just (Wizards - 2) + (Clerics - 1)? I say (Wizard - 2) since our DPS is jack compared to their's.
no
Uhhhh yeah, for groups we either heal like a gimp cleric, or put out crap DPS, and debuff the mob.
Because Druids aren't an all-dps class.
No, but the problem is most groups want druids to heal, not to DPS. Even then, not all group will accept druids as healers, and in other cases it's just not efficient to take the druid to heal at all.
learn to group with people who aren't idiots
Slightly difficult to do that when going LFG, you either get tells for groups or you don't or you make your own.
Because a group with a druid and a wizard functions better than a group with just a wizard (through the use of fire debuffs and epic 1.5+ clicks).
When's the last time a druid was ever invited because of their epic click? Right around the ass crack of never? Druids also are not the only class that can debuff FR.
I've been invited to multiple groups on my druid, solely because of debuffing, occasional nukes/heals, and 2.0 click. Then again, I've done a lot of groups with a mage/necro/wizard; and they love that stuff. Go group with some open minded people and see what happens.
Again, it isn't our decision to group with open minded people, it's their (groups in general) decision to invite a druid to the group or not. Not everyone is willing to take druids into top end group content over someone who is better DPS or a cleric.
Because a druid can cure the group of various detrimental effects; along with buff HP/Mana regen, Damage shield, regen, and a slight damage modifier.
So can a myriad of other classes for all of those listed things, and most all of them better than us. Regen shouldn't even be listed. As for damage modifier, which one? Skin to Vines which currently doesn't do half of what we were told in beta that it would do and cannot be recast on mobs if it fades, or Icefall Breath which doesn't lower AC like our other ice debuffs do? Not only that, the mod that they have is insignificant.
Get over it. Go play another class; if you don't understand what a druid can do by now, you just need to play a new class.
I for damn sure know how to play a druid and what it can and cannot do as I've been playing it for six years, the only thing that we can do better than other classes is Atk debuff mobs. That's it. Everything else we can do is a watered down version of something that someone else can sure as hell do better than we can. People don't want utility, they want something finite.
Because a druid tanks a whole hell of a lot better than a wizard.
Uhhhhh, I guess so if tanking seven or greater expansion old content really matters that much, sure. Either one of us quickly becomes a grease spot on newer **** unless we are being chain healed and someone gets aggro off of us.
Take a joke.
.
.
.
AlwindSiafu
11-13-2006, 11:34 AM
And not being long-term veterans of the game
Although I haven't been there since creation, I'd say six years qualifies me as a veteran.
In this case, you have to get past some pretty fractured grammar to get the point of that post
It was a post done in haste. I apologize for not realizing I was going to be graded.
As I said above, no point in responding
Uh, I just read through four paragraphs to get to this sentence. If that wasn't a response, what was it?
In closing however, I understand our class isn't perfect. I also understand that both the character and the game are dramatically different from when Everquest evolved.
Are there changes to our class that should be made? Absolutely. I just grow tired at times of people complaining about every single issue. No class in EQ is perfect, nor will they ever be.
Gaennen
11-13-2006, 11:53 AM
Alwind, I'll tell you why people jumped on your post. It's because no matter how tired you are of reading complaints they are more tired of the refrain "if you don't like it roll another class" It's trotted out all the time and all it does is act as the proverbial red flag to the bull.
If you hadn't said that you probably wouldn't have got so negative a reaction.
Rajolae
11-13-2006, 12:15 PM
I finally got around to bothering with actually opening my log file with YALP yesterday to view something disturbing that I had been noticing on my guild's Tris parses. For the past two weeks, a cleric had somehow managed to outdamage me on Tris, my parse yesterday showed him just barely doing less damage than I did (by about 3k) and another guildie had him at doing 30k MORE than me (I'm pretty sure I had all filters turned on, I don't know what would cause such a discrepancy). While it was a circumstantial fight, a cleric still managed to out DPS me while I was standing there chain casting CBH, WS, and WF by using Greater Avatar, Vow of Valour, and Mana Flare. Honestly, that is just goddamn sad and pathetic.
AlwindSiafu
11-13-2006, 12:24 PM
Alwind, I'll tell you why people jumped on your post. It's because no matter how tired you are of reading complaints they are more tired of the refrain "if you don't like it roll another class" It's trotted out all the time and all it does is act as the proverbial red flag to the bull.
You make a very good point. :texla:
Scirocco
11-13-2006, 07:40 PM
Alwind, I wasn't even responding to your post. I was responding to Alei's, which suggested that Travin's post was going to get ripped apart. Travin replied, in fact, without escalating the matter.
One's response to "roll another character" depends on the type of player you are.
There are some people who are inflicted by MCS (Multiple Character Syndrome). Don't bother telling them to roll another character, because they already have!
There are some at the other extreme who stick with one character for an entire game. Their persona in the game is that character. Character slots are solely for mules. Start a new character? Only in another game.
And then there are people in between. A step or two up from the MCS player, for example, is the player with one or two characters, perhaps a main and one or two alts.
The ones who advocate most strongly are the ones most attached to a particular character class. And those are the ones least likely to be willing to just roll another character.
AlwindSiafu
11-14-2006, 10:06 AM
Alwind, I wasn't even responding to your post.
I feel sheepish.
Sorry.
Alwind
Riverwinter
11-15-2006, 06:53 AM
I can say one thing for sure about this thread: It's entertaining.
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