Pigs are flying and hell is freezing over:

From: necro.eqclasses.com/forum...e=3&ARCHIV (http://necro.eqclasses.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7024&whichpage=3&ARCHIV)
about halfway down the page, a post from Scott Hartsman of EQ Live

All of the Necros I talked with at GenCon and FanFaire were extremely cool and understanding when given the opportunity to speak about this, and other things, face to face.

I think when someone's looking at someone else, right in front of them, it's usually pretty easy to tell the difference between someone who just doesn't care and someone who's dying to have the time to do the job, and do it right.

Everyone on the EQ team really does fall into the latter category.

We all feel very strongly about this game - Or we wouldn't spend 12+ hours a day working on it. It's pretty much as simple as that.



That said, there was something else I wanted to add..


The first version of DoT stacking will be going to the test server next patch. This is the first *TEST* implementation, which is absolutely subject to change and refinement before it goes live.

It doesn't solve everyone's problems about everything, but it does cover most of the important parts:

* Multiple casters can land the same spell.

* No exploits with zoning/LDing out allowing the same person to stack the same spell multiple times.

* While it was fun to watch myself get DoTted to death a few times, we've disabled the ability for NPCs to do this to PCs. (Edit; Clarification: This means that NPCs don't gain the same new stacking abilities that PCs do.)

* Due to concerns about seriously imbalancing PvP, the first run will be going in as Player-casting-on-NPC only.

* Unfortunately, the 15 effect limit is a totally different beast. It's one we'd like to tackle at some point, but not likely in the short term. Anything that PCs and NPCs have in common is a real bear, as I hope you can imagine.



Hopefully there's still enough meat there to where the majority of folks will consider this to be good news.


Take care,

- Scott (aka Gallenite)

Wow..so I can actually duo with other druids effectively now.

Awesome. I hope they enable it in PvP too. Wizzys can hit you with multiple DD's that could one-shot casters with over 2k dd per shot (not even taking manaburn into consideration), you get 3 wizzys in a group, and they can AOE everyone that walks into a zone as you are zoning in, keeping huge contingents of players at bay, with just a few wizards. Allowing dots to stack in PvP wouldnt imbalance PvP nearly as much as what wizards already have when it comes to PvP.

Arm the Winged Death Torpedos and fire on my mark, Mr. Sulu!

This would certianly open up some new and interesting strategies.

/grins

Fairweather Pure

I really hope it goes live. It will be nice to have use of DoTs on raids. And it makes two druids in a group less redundant.

Hehe I was thinking of groups of 6 53+ druids and what they could do...

Wow, if this goes live it would be fantastic, what Babolink said, 6 53+'s thats a DoT 6x's as effective and crippling :) Weehee! On a raid situation (Im thinking like Naggy/Vox here since im around that level to be doing that now) About 15 dots all piled onto the beast, lets say Drifting Death at 650 points in one minute, times that by 15 and you get 9750, that being 162.5dps (I think), Thats gunna pack a punch no? Heehee

Edit: Just realised, 15 is the max efefct limit...silly me....not guna be full of DoT's ow is it? Heehee

This is... wow.

I just can't see it going live though, there seems to be to many ways to abuse this...

Yes true, sadly....:(

I just can't see it going live though, there seems to be to many ways to abuse this...

Please enlighten me as to how such a thing could be abused. I realy want to know.

I totally agree with you Spyder...DoTs should stack in PVP as well...and for the exact reason you stated.

I have no idea how stacking DoTs could imbalance PVP - the current situation is parallel to having a rule that once a person has been nuked, that nuke can't be used again on that person...well, it isn't a perfect analogy, but good enough for this topic.

I don't see it being that exploitable so long as they have a limit on how many dots can be on the mob total. Don't know how they're setting it up but right it seems like the dots will count towards the 15 debuffs. This makes it much weaker in a raid situation.

1. Tash
2. Malo
3. Occlude
4. Malasini
5. Slow
6. Ro's
7. DoT | Cripple
8. DoT | MoK
9. DoT | Ensnare
10. DoT
11. DoT
12. DoT
13. DoT
14. DoT
15. DoT

On a raid level mob, these are the spells that I'd likely see cast. This allows 6 to 9 slots for Dots. I could see either:
1. Only Necro's are allowed to cast and stack their highest dots.
or
2. Each class only use their most effiecient dot. ( ie: Funeral + Winged )
or
3. Something else..

Hopefully they figure out how to add a counter to each type of dot ( ie: Winged x 3 ) that would only take one slot. Either way, I'm happy about the change! :)


Wyte Psycnosis <Ordo Malleus>
60 Dooid - Rallos Zek

It's no different than 5 druid being able to nuke at the same time. Even with these changes I won't be using dots much on raids or in groups. Stuff just dies to fast and I can do more dps with nukes/crits. It's good to see this silly restriction being lifted though.

I often run into cases now where a single dot can't land because of too many 'debuffs/buffs/dots' on the mob already.

a typical tash/oos/malo/snare/sundering/slow/fixation/disjunction setup alreay yeilds 8 debuffs. if 2 shammies cast different dots, 2 druids do the same, and 2 necros do the same, you're already up to 14 of the 15 total debuff slots. happens a lot, imo.

alyn cross
riding insanity
povar

Doesn't disjunction overwrite sundering, taking its buff slot?

Are you kidding!

Winged Death at 50 seconds will cause any "smart" raid leader to look for Druids!

No agg for one cast and most raid mobs do last 50 seconds easy.

Each Druid is now worth a minimum of 1300 damage on a raid per mob and once that Dot is cast we revert to spot heals or we can burn down at end with nukes.

THIS is sweet!

Um.....HOLY COW! Now THIS begins to address some of the core raid problems that we've been discussing.

I really need to go digest this. Oh my, for the possibilities...

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The last three nights I have been in Umbral, grouping with anywhere from 1-4 other druids, killing the Elysians. We have split up the DoT assignment, along with some nukes, to kill the mobs. With this change, we could all use our best DoT, and make it much simpler (and faster to kill). Actually, we could all stack our free DoDs, too =)

WD and DoD together do about 1900 DPM, times 4 druids, would be about 7600 DPM. Elysians dead in less than 3 minutes =)

One question I have about this is multi-effect DoTs (like our epic). Would WoN also be stackable? If so, you're talking about ~2500DPM per druid, and never going OOM, just medding back the WD mana while it cooks =)

I like this idea!

Tat

Hehe I was thinking of groups of 6 53+ druids and what they could do...

About the same as 6 53+ wizards, except where they kill a mob with around 6K HP in the secs it takes to cast the spell, druids will take a minute for the DoT to get full effect. I would say it makes sense for DoTs to stack. Not sure what repercussions it would have though since hundreds of encounters are built around the fact that DoT's don't stack. This will make things easier on groups,

Or 6 necoros with 6 pets.

Or 6 shaman with 6 pets.

Still, this does open up a huge option for multiple druids on raids. Got and add? Anyone and everyone that can DoT should switch targets and assist the secondary tank, drop your best DoT, and return to the MA target. With the number of druids and necros on our raids, we could fill 15 slots with DoTs in less than 8 seconds. You do the math and figure out what 15 DoTs can do in a minute or less ;)

Fairweather Pure

Elysians anyone?

Now you know with this upgrade they are going to nerf elysians....to every upgrade there is an equal and opposite nerf

Hmm...

If this means that a ranger can stack his Stinging Swarm with my Stinging Swarm, wouldn't it make sense to let him stack Stinging Swarm with my Drones of Doom? Normally these two won't stack.

Just wondering how this will all mesh with current DoT stacking restrictions.

OMG. Best news I've heard in a very long time.

If it goes live, I may have to cancel my Bitter Druid season pass. Maybe. ;)

~Firemynd

While Winged Death and Drones of Doom may stack, I doubt that the Epic will stack for a couple of reasons.

1 - Wrath of Nature has a snare component in it, while DoTs may stack, debuffs do not and the snare component is considered a debuff. You can update Wrath of Nature at anytime or overwrite someone else with your fresh one, but I do not think coding will allow multiple snare effects to stack.

2 - Balance. The effect of the epic does 1650 damage over the course of three minutes, the big issue is that it costs no mana. If 15 druids could stack their epic effects that would cause almost 25k of damage in three minutes without costing a drop of mana. I don't think VI would want that.

I can see a new type of xp group.

find a mob that 6 casts of a dot will kill... (I've never looked at it... but I bet there are some for each level range)

Then run around in a group and each casting your DoT and snare.

Without the DoT nerf, they will all be full use. With snare set, you just let them run after you... after a while... they all start to drop.

Just hope the train behind you doesn't run over any newbees :(

How many people have said they would give up "some" solo ability for more things to do on a raid?

I know I have.

So if this makes a few mobs get more HP's but more Druids are wanted on raids because of this then so be it.

BTW they already uped the Hpts on those skels. They are about 20-26k now by my last check and besides - why do they care if Druids can get no drop armor faster with a group over solo?

Now two Druids can group and kill skels faster where before they might have solo pulled two at a time each taking one.

Same diff me thinks :)

Also, we have always been great at powerleveling... but now we can do it MUCH better.

6 druids... each cast a DoT on a mob (or as many as they can in a minute)... then zone.

Then one character wacks each once and runs.

should be VERY good for having a low level character being powerleveled with deep reds. Should be AMAZING for powering them through later levels :)

now to find a few other druids who each have a twink :)

It will be interesting to see how this is played out. At first glance it looks great. It really opens up the possibility of having more druids around on raids. Even if the restriction on 15 spell slots on a NPC were enforced, as others have already said it still leaves alot of space for dots. In further tests, I'm wondering whether multiple casts of the same dot will result in only 1 spell slot taken and the dot damage is multiplied by the number of dots currently on mob at the given tick.

I hope the resistance check on WD won't be changed.

--
Kenuon
of the Bitter Druids

Also, we have always been great at powerleveling... but now we can do it MUCH better.

6 druids... each cast a DoT on a mob (or as many as they can in a minute)... then zone.

For that very reason, I wouldn't be at all surprised if, after this goes live, DoTs would be stripped from the mob when the caster zones. And tcha know what? I would consider it a proper and reasonable nerf, to prevent the type of exploiting Scot inferred in his post.

~Firemynd

* No exploits with zoning/LDing out allowing the same person to stack the same spell multiple times.

This may imply that they may code it so that a dot will drop the instant the caster of the dot zones or linkdeads.

It wouldn't be that hard for VI to not allow single player dot stacking through the use of LD/zoning.

Basically every player probably has a numerical number attached to their player profile. So what they do is they attach an additional flag on Winged Death for instance.

So when you cast Winged Death it would be Winged Death-#. When you zone and try and cast again it would simply overwrite Winged Death-# again.

Since the # would be unique to every player, that would allow the dot stacking from multiple druids but not each other.

They already do something similar with mobs with the same name.

a_spiderling_00
a_spiderling_01
a_spiderling_02
a_spiderling_03

etc, etc.

Prior to a UI fix, you could even display the _00 number.

This sounds like a great change. I'm amazed at the people who think it will be 'overpowering' or 'too easy to abuse' though.

>>>If 15 druids could stack their epic effects that would cause almost 25k of damage in three minutes without costing a drop of mana. I don't think VI would want that.

15 druids using mana free dot is too much damage? How about wizards with rend robes? or 15 shaman with jbb? Or just 15 shamans with cann and torpor really? Or 15 mage/necro pets.

>>>Also, we have always been great at powerleveling... but now we can do it MUCH better. 6 druids... each cast a DoT on a mob (or as many as they can in a minute)... then zone.

LOL, but get real, who on earth would do that! And anyway if you have 6 high level guys ALL powerleveling someone, he DESERVES fast exp. This is really a pointless concern since verant long ago placed a cap on how much exp you can gain for 1 kill no matter how much higher than you the mob is. Plus much the same can be done with any 6 people: beat a tough mob senseless and zone and let some newbie finish it off. Either way, you're still better off just having a normal group beat the mob down then mem blur it without all the screwing around with 6 people zoning every 2 mins.

I hear these kind of concerns and it's like half funny, half sad. It's as if we've been the victims of abuse so long we think we deserve it and any steps to make us desired are "unblanicng". But yet wizards making 600+ k a week and eliminating an entire level from the progression ladder for tier 3 guilds with manaburn, or shamans being the only class with unlimited mana is just fine.

Sorry if I sound a little harsh, I'm just trying to get people to be realistic, this is a nice step towards class balance and we should be thankful they messed up necros so badly that this is the only way to fix them and we may benefit as a side effect, hehe.

I agree . . . Hell has just frozen over, and a pig just went flying by my window.

This is the best news I've heard in a long long time, even counting the luclin ports.

Now to make it perfect, Verant, PLEASE remove the snare component from our epic, or barring that, let the epic dot stack too.

Yes, PLEASE, take the snare off our epic.

Or Keep snare and have separate resistance checks.

Nah, lose the snare, run speed immune mobs suxxor.

On second thought, let's just drop it, no need to have this discussion again here, let's just bask in happiness at the new dot stacking.

Hmm, hadn't really considered the plvl angle, but that sure seems like a lot of work for one kill, even if it is a deep red.

Anyway, after thinking about this a little it obviously takes Druids and Necros from gimp status to a viable player, especially on lesser raids. A group of 3 Necros and 3 Druids could easily down a reasonable mob in 1 minute. Better yet, get a group with a Tank, Cleric and 4 DoT classes and you've got yourself a very efficient fighting force with little chance for non-tank aggro and a pretty easy healing pattern.

Wow, the more I think about the possibilities, the more stoked I get!

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Well first off, this would be a nice change but it isnt that big of deal for druids as long as the 15 buff/debuff slot is in place. Since you want a certain number of slots open for debuffs, that only gives you 6-7 or so DOT slots to fill up. You will want the best dots to go in and stack so lets say you have 2 necros and 2-3 shamans on raid - that is a good number of slots already taken (of course shamans are busy slowing too), and necros can do multiple dots better than WD. So you just have 1, maybe 2 druids doing WD before it fills up.

Also, wizzies can nuke with manaburn (no agro and can easily get mana back with rods) and regular nukes (with concussion) can do far more damage without aggro and much faster than stacking druid dots would ever do.

Some people will just never be happy.

The power level trouble would be that they could do a bunch at a time.

Shamans especially.

Take a super long DoT (like 3 minutes). Then find a mob that will die from 6 of them.

Then have 6 Shamans land that DoT on how many they can in 2 1/2 minutes.

Then have a single character running after and hitting them each once.

Then the casters all zone....

IE, in 3 minutes you could have maybe 10 - 20 high level mobs drop for one.

but your right (whoever said it).... if you can talk 6 high level casters to powerlevel you... you deserve it ; )

My whole point was with the 15 debuff slot limitation this barely affects druids that raid and have a decent number of necros/shamans in their guild. With all the other debuffs that need to go in on the "big" mobs and other classes with better dots, that means MAYBE 2 druids can stack WD. And non-boss mobs die way too fast on raids for WD to be efficient, better off nuking with Moonfire + mage focus bracer (SCF3 nice too).

Now lets look at grouping, I rarely group with another druid in an XP group and having dots stack wont help as mobs die way too fast for dot to take full effect. If fighting in higher end zone like CT where the mob might live 1 minute, the group would kill far more effectively with just 1 druid and replace 2nd one with another melee. But even in CT, most mobs tend to die before WD has full effect.


About the powerlevel thing, maybe they will cause dots to poof whenever you zone or go LD? I guess that means no more dotting mob, zoning to let it die to avoid faction hit.

Hey I'm not complaining. This is pretty cool even with it's limitations which had to be implimented. We're slowing getting almost every point of our petition addressed.

Weird question that just kinda came to me... how will they tag who cast what DoT? In other words, how will they implement me not being able to quad-WD a single mob? I got to thinking about it because the only real "limiter" spell I could think of would be the Donal's BP timer. The one that keeps you from chain CH'ing Donal's. Even that is restricted to the spell, not the player who cast it though.

Enquiring minds....

What boss mobs die in less than 50 seconds?

Even the Boss Mobs yard trash last at least 50 seconds.

Shamen have MUCH more imp things to do than to stack dots.

Necros, like Druids, had no real purpose on raids - now at least a few of us do.

They said that they would liek to fix the 15 limit cap but it may be too hard.

If this increases the number of Druids on a raid by even two - it is a worthwhile change as it's two more than before.

Lets be real here... how many debuffs are placed on the average mob?

Slow?
Magic Resist?
Fire Resist?
Cold Resist?
Attack Debuff?
AC Debuff?

a few more?

This seems to leave open room for a few dots. Now for sure we used to vary the dot lines to stack more than one before but it seems that now all classes with good dots can cast one dot per battle.

As a side not... how many "real" dot lines are there?

I know Druids have 5 (including Epic) but only 3 are any good (RO being highly resisted) and that many class dot lines overwrite each other.

I wonder how many times on raids different classes end up overwriting each others dots?

Maybe we are all looking for a giant step to fix the Druid class. I'll take a number of baby steps if that is what they want to do.

1. 10% healing penalty
2. New ports
3. New AA skills
4. DOT Stacking (maybe)
5. Heals????

I don;t think Druids will be getting a "Manaburn" type skill for balance purposes. Lets be positive - these are the most changes for the better the Druid Class has recieved in three years!

Let's cheer Verant on!

My whole point was with the 15 debuff slot limitation this barely affects druids that raid and have a decent number of necros/shamans in their guild. With all the other debuffs that need to go in on the "big" mobs and other classes with better dots, that means MAYBE 2 druids can stack WD. And non-boss mobs die way too fast on raids for WD to be efficient, better off nuking with Moonfire + mage focus bracer (SCF3 nice too).


Actually, Druids with Mage Focus are better off using Moonfire anyway. With No focus gear WD and Moonfire are close to Damage per mana. 3.67 vs 3.59 respectively. If focus items average a mere 25pts more damage for moonfire they are just as efficient. If a druid has specialized in Evocation, a reduction of 10 mana to the cost of Moonfire will give it a better Damage ratio than WD with or without focus gear.

So that does support your arguement as well, howerver, only about 50% of level 60 druids have Moonfire, and until then WD is the most efficient Damag

Found a ten dollar bill laying on the sidewalk, and here you are bitching that it wasn't a twenty.....

I don't see what all the fuss is about. All it does is allow more flexibility in forming groups. Having two of the same class in a group will be less of a problem.

It used to be that if you wanted six dots on a mob you needed a necro, a shaman, and a druid. No two of the same class. Now you'll be able to have three druids and still get six dots going.


As for powerleveling: Sure you'll be able to have six druids dot the mob then zone. But you were always able to have two druids, a shaman, a necro, and an enchanter dot the mob then zone.

As for breaking encounters: DoTs are only a small percentage more effective than DD spells. We've always been able to stack DD spells. So we're only gaining a small percentage in power.

As for raids: Between Shaman, Necro, Druid, and Enchanter dots and debuffs the 15 slots are normally full anyway. Maybe you'll be able to convince the enchanter to back off and let a second druid use that buff slot, but in general there won't be any big need for more druids on raids.

So um given the resistance on WD being very low, if they remove the 15 slot limit, we can start the WD crew... About 100 level 53+ druids get together with some afflication duration gear and tear up the Kunark Dragons.... The trick will be everyone staying out of the dragons way while the insects chew away... Just a 100 person Kite might be effective.. Were all going to be rich! Quick make the web sight!

No matter how any of the nay sayers look at this, it is to our benefit, end of story.

Are we fixed, no, does this help, yes.

Cassea said, referring to Elysians:

"BTW they already uped the Hpts on those skels. They are about 20-26k now by my last check and besides - why do they care if Druids can get no drop armor faster with a group over solo"

I've been there all this week hunting them. They still look like they're firmly in the 18-20kHP range.

Tat

Also, all these people talking about powerleveling schemes involving zoning each time crack me up. Yeah, maybe you'd do it once in a blue moon for a joke, but who seriously PLs a toon for many levels constantly zoning all the time? It would drive you insane!

Re: Moonfire, three things:

1) 53-59 Druids will be more desirable and can actually feel (slightly) useful

2) How often does Moonfire get at least partially resisted?

3) Each Druid can increase DPS by casting Moonfire while DoT is busy working it's magic

Will this make us more desirable on raids? I would hope somewhat, although Necros are the ones who got the real bump. Still, it couldn't hurt our cause.

I'm also with Cass, add a healing upgrade and I'll leave my BDC business cards at home =P

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Actually one thing that might hapen is that some epic mobs/kunark dragons might actually die after a newbie guild wipes out on it.
I can see it now
Random Guildnecro "Hey guys too bad we wiped out on gore but guess what, i feigned death and watched gore go down to the 10 dots stacked on him."
Random up and comming guildleader"Thank god! that would have been embarrasing!"

actually I think that if he was FD and the dots did end up finishing Gore off, wouldn't Gore poof when the dots killed her?

[holy crap, your signature was over 100kb]

Hmm I wonder if somehow the Darkness line will no longer overwrite snare?

I realize one is a DoT and the other is a Movement Change, but it would be really nice if the two could go hand in hand.

"Some people will just never be happy."

"Found a ten dollar bill laying on the sidewalk, and here you are bitching that it wasn't a twenty....."



Some people really need to learn handling the truth. If you cant take a comment, altho negative but more importantly true as a valid point then quit reading. Seems to me all you expect is everybody to talk about how great it is, w/o pointing out any other valid points. As far as i know, the people that raised some issues are pointing out some perfectly valid issues in regards to the change. Tell them why their wrong, debate it, but dont act as though people cant make valid points on why all DoTs now stacking isnt as great as you might first believe. Its annoying to constantly hear the same people that expect everyone else to kiss Verants @#%$ like they do. This censorship in terms of everythign having to be positive is silly, especially when people use it against others that make valid points.

Personally, i like the change, but i do understand the limits of DoT'ing. I do agree that a Necro's DoTs will take precedence over ours, but i'm sure thats mainly why this change came about in the first place. A necro's main form of damage is DoT'ing, its rediculous that they couldnt stack them before. Wizards, Mages, and Druids can nuke. Necro's and Shamans mainly rely on DoTs, and this helps when their are more than 1 of them on a raid significantly. Its ok for us, but a great change for them.

Good move. Very interesting. I hope it works as intended.

Well, with the 15 buff/debuff limit, this would leave druids pretty much where they already are. Why bring a druid to heal when you can bring a cleric, why bring a druid to nuke when you can bring a wizard, why bring a druid to dot when you can bring a necro (and already have shaman). But this could change everything.

As lame as it is to quote oneself:

I wrote:

"* Unfortunately, the 15 effect limit is a totally different beast. It's one we'd like to tackle at some point, but not likely in the short term. Anything that PCs and NPCs have in common is a real bear, as I hope you can imagine."

and

"We all feel very strongly about this game - Or we wouldn't spend 12+ hours a day working on it. It's pretty much as simple as that."


Yes - That was the downside. Each copy of a DoT takes up its own slot, due to duration, focus, and damage credit differences.

We definitely know the effect that would have on DoT casters on raids. (Between Rowyl and Jahaar and the boards -- I get it. I swear. ;)


However, after some massive late night rewriting, we have an answer to the 15 slot limit for NPCs. We should be able to extend it out at least a little now.

We'll have to see how far we can take it, though - Adding a pile of new slots to every NPC in the game could have some pretty bad side effects that we'll be monitoring and tuning on test.


...and we'll have to call yesterday "20+ hours" instead.

- S.

While this doesnt have a huge impact on druids, it is indeed great news, and a sign that there are a few people over at VI that are listening and trying to make good changes.

Thanks VI!

Oh btw for someone who wondered, some corpses are specifically coded not to poof, no matter how they are killed. Most notably are dragons, such as the ww ones, which were creatively neutralized and yet still left a corpse. :cool:

Tia

It is a benefit to Druids in groups (as long as you are fighting tougher mobs), but not really relevant in raids for the reason FD states. If we get a DoT upgrade, that could change things, but only marginally, since any DoT upgrade is not likely to be better than the current high level Necro DoTs (probably not better than Shaman either). To make this raid relevant, the 15 stacking limit is going to have to go. Still, it is nice. Just don't get fooled into thinking this is going to make Druids wanted by raiding guilds, because it won't.

actually Tiane, i believe any corpse lvl 55 or over will not poof for any reason generally. that's why kunark and WW dragons have that.

"Also, wizzies can nuke with manaburn (no agro and can easily get mana back with rods) and regular nukes (with concussion) can do far more damage without aggro and much faster than stacking druid dots would ever do. "

This implies that the only way to make other classes, like Druids for example, viable in raid situations would be that they did as much or more damage as wizards in the same or shorter period of time.

Is this really a reasonable objective? Or should we realize that it still opens up a lot of options for a variety of situations.

I am in shock that Broomhilda of all people is defending negativity... Why I never ... ;)

Be fair. Broomhilda is not defending negativity; he was defending his critical stance. Negative would be "Damn, we're doomed" or "The sky is black and will never be blue again." Broomhilda is "If I see the sky is black, I reserve the right to state so."

As with most everything on this forum, 90% of it is opinion, and that, my friends, was an opinion, too. LOL.

I think this is very cool if it goes live.

This implies that the only way to make other classes, like Druids for example, viable in raid situations would be that they did as much or more damage as wizards in the same or shorter period of time.

No, that is not at all true. For instance, most Druids here feel Druid nuking is at or very close to where it should be. If we had a viable secondary role on raids that was needed, our nuking power alone, even though far below Wizards, would be enough to make us worth while on raids. The point about the DoTs is that, with only 6 to 9 slots available for DoTs, it makes no sense to have a Druid DoT in more than one of those spots, since a raid will very likely have a couple necros and a couple shamen, those slots will be taken up by the better DoTs cast by other classes. Given that, this change (and I still agree that it is a very nice change), is not likely to effect the desirabilty of Druids on raids.

Druids

AND

Necros

are not wanted on raids.

This will help us both - maybe Necs more but then again they have yet to address healing so let's wait to see the "full package" before we nitpick each of it's parts.

Some of us are looking for some new killer ability. We might just not get that and in fact it looks like Verant is going the route of multiple tweeks to Druids.

We asked Verant to give us the tools and we would fight the perception and so far they are doing this.

I'll not let them off for healing as this was and still is a high level Druids biggest problem but as I have posted before it is also the hardest to balance.

After they adjust healing we can look at the entire package and declare it a success or failure.

I have to be honest here... so far I'm quite impressed.

Fix healing and by fix I mean a better ratio, HoT or Group heal and Verant will have hit a homerun.

Do something silly like give us a bigger heal with the same ratio or bump it up a notch (IE 2.4 to 2.5) and I will not be so happy :)

Remember this and do not let anyone tell you otherwise...

Healing is broken because of one spell - Complete Heal. Verant has been forced to balance the entire game around this one spell thus forcing all other direct heals into hopeless competition with this one insanely powerful spell.

Druids are the ONLY main healing class that has to rely on Single target Direct Heals on high level raids (regen being insignificant on raids) and this is why Druids are affected the most.

But we have been through this all time and again.

I think our case has been made over and over. Verant has stated that healing needed to be addressed and I'm confident they are working on it as we speak.

You know...there are 59 levels before 60.

Maybe this won't make druids the most useful thing on a raid, but what about in an area like Greater Fay where like 25% of the population is druids. A Crushbone group might very well have 3 druids in it, and all would be able to cast stinging swarm.

Don't be so short sighted and selfish. Just because this change might not help you, doesn't mean its not helping someone.

"You know...there are 59 levels before 60."

You must not have your message board tinted glasses on. People who generally participate in message boards for games like this tend to spend more time playing the game than the average person.

You have an abnormally high number of level 60's and uber players who participate in this and other message boards. So you tend to have a confirming society who only continues to support the position of the level 60 uber character in such discussions.

You know...there are 59 levels before 60.

There may be 59 levels before 60, but those 59 levels turned out to be perhaps 25% of the game to date for me. And that percentage is getting smaller every day.

To be fair, this board has a high percentage of high level druids playing. Most of us have been playing our druids for years, and for many of us, it's our only character (I'm a member of the no-twink club myself).

In other words, I was level 40 for a few days. I've been level 60 for years. Shortsighted? I don't think so.

It may not be entirely accurate to say that the game begins at 60. But it's awfully close.

Now, I think the potential problem with the DoT change is that it WAS aimed at helping necros and druids in high level raids. It was one of the complaints that the high-level druids here have made repeatedly. As it turns out, due to the 15-counter limit, it probably won't be as helpful as many of us thought on raids. My guild is already fearing the possibility of a slow or other debuff not being able to land if too many DoTs are stuck on the mob, what with all the weapon proc debuffs. We simply may NOT be able to have more than a couple druids or necros landing a single DoT each, due to this code limitation. Still, it is an undoubtedly step (or two) in the right direction.

As for sub-50 druids in Crushbone or the like, I wasn't aware that they were in dire need of help. There isn't really an imbalance for druids under-50, except for the healing slide from 40-50.


Don't be so short sighted and selfish. Just because this change might not help you, doesn't mean its not helping someone.

As I note above, I believe the direct goal of this change WAS to help high level druids and necros in high level RAID situations (not a single group, as you aren't going to run into DoT stacking issues in a lot of 6-and-under XP groups).

As I point out above, it may not be helping the players that it was supposed to be helping. I trust you can see that.

Malosini will overwrite malo as well, opening another slot, according to wyte's list. Good post wyte, you sound like you really know your stuff. Anyone know where epic dots would fit in, or how that would work. Most effective DoT *should* stick, then again....how many dots can you stack and not pull the mob off your MT. An average level 60 warrior with epic (yeah I know warrior epic's suck, the debuff does generate a good deal of agro though) can hold agro over 2 56+ shaman dots, on raids(I often malo and slow, so maybe 3, if discounting that agro), the 3rd gets me a free trip to nexus. It would be a very good change for mobs like nathyns, or grieg, or most anything named in ntov, though. If MT dies(missed cheal), there will be no 2nd tank after the mob has had 9 dots on it, from 4 different people for 10mins. This could lead to some very painfull learning experiences. Haha, New ways to to get ourselves killed, I still like it though. :p

Gamral

Since when did druids under level 50 need any help? Pre-kunark druids were one of the strongest classes and didnt need any help - they were easily leveled and overpowered compared to alot of classes (where do you think all the bad publicity/negativity towards the druid class came from?). Its just that with Kunark and later expansions, the game focused on post 50 and turned 100% melee with casters pushed into the support/backup role and druids pushed to the FAR back. Plus, nowdays people tend to level from 1 to low 50s incredibly fast with the readily available junk gear that would have been considered godly pre-kunark. That's why the discussion board is centered on the post 50 druid and his problems with a heavy focus on the 59+ druid in a raiding guild. Once you level past a certain amount, there really isnt anything left to do in the game other than raid, and druids want a productive role on raids, not just a half baked nuker/healer that a guild would better off getting a real nuker/healer instead.

Unless Verant significantly increases the 15 buff slot limitation this change wont do much for the druid ability to dot - better off letting the necros take the few slots available. I can just see the moans now if slow or some other debuff wont take hold cause all the slots full, especially if your melee are using weapons that proc debuff effects.

I know Druids have 5 (including Epic) but only 3 are any good (RO being highly resisted)

On a raid situation, if the mob is worth tossing Boro on, its worth debuffing with Ro's line. Thus...Boro will land.

This was a complaint even in the old days and seeing it fixed increases the grouping potential of DoT classes when a group already has one or more. I find it sad that so many 60 druids have forgotten the problems in even small groups of limited DoT lines and stacking. This is a major improvement across the board for DoT classes of *all* levels. A guild that has it's @#%$ together should be able to manage those 15 slots to get a lot more damage in.

I find it sad that so many 60 druids have forgotten the problems in even small groups of limited DoT lines and stacking.

There is a reason for this.

Its becase Druids most powerful DoT is a level 52 spell. Its because our level 59 and 60 Nukes are almost as efficient as our best DoT.

Druids have no need to DoT unless they are soloing.

If Verant would give us the DoT upgrade we've been asking for...

Xitix,
This has nothing to do with whether the change is good for raids, whether the change is good for DoT classes (Necros and Shamen). All the "not so impressed" comments are coming from people, like me, who like the change, but understand this will have almost no efect on Druids during raids. Druids stop being a "DoT" class at about level 57, and certainly by 59. Your comment about the ability of guilds with their @#%$ together to get more damage from DoTs during a raid is certainly true, but those DoTs won't be Druids DoTs. If anything, Druid raid dotting will go down, as allocating the 15 debuff slots becomes more of a priority now. Right now, I encorage people with DoTs to dot the targets. After this patch goes live, I will start actually thinking about the 15 slots and make sure that there is room for the second and third Necro or Shaman DoT before I let my Druids cast DoTs.

So, the change is great. But this is not a raid friendly change for Druids, unless the 15 stacking limit is removed as well.

Unless Verant significantly increases the 15 buff slot limitation this change wont do much for the druid ability to dot.

lazy droods, you obviously havent been keeping up to date! scott hartsman posted in a second thread two days ago giving a little update. the naysayers can now go back and re-evaluate their views on dot stacking changes =)

oh, and no nukes come that close to the ability to deal out 1716 damage for 263 mana or less which can be done with wd and foci =) even with aaxp, dots win in a comparison of damage per mana ratios.


As lame as it is to quote oneself:

I wrote:

"* Unfortunately, the 15 effect limit is a totally different beast. It's one we'd like to tackle at some point, but not likely in the short term. Anything that PCs and NPCs have in common is a real bear, as I hope you can imagine."

and

"We all feel very strongly about this game - Or we wouldn't spend 12+ hours a day working on it. It's pretty much as simple as that."


Yes - That was the downside. Each copy of a DoT takes up its own slot, due to duration, focus, and damage credit differences.

We definitely know the effect that would have on DoT casters on raids. (Between Rowyl and Jahaar and the boards -- I get it. I swear. ;)


However, after some massive late night rewriting, we have an answer to the 15 slot limit for NPCs. We should be able to extend it out at least a little now.

We'll have to see how far we can take it, though - Adding a pile of new slots to every NPC in the game could have some pretty bad side effects that we'll be monitoring and tuning on test.


...and we'll have to call yesterday "20+ hours" instead.

- S.

Hehe, I was wondering if anyone ever reads before they write. I posted that same thing two days ago on page 3 of this thread and have been having fun watching people say dot stacking wont work because of the 15 slot limit. :)

This is great for necromancers on raids..

However as far as druids go it can go two ways in my opinion.

If for example I cast pyrocruor on a mob, then necro2 casts pyrocruor on a mob and that just counts as one buff slot and just multiplies the damage done by 2 then druids might have room to get a dot worked in.

However if the above situation cost 2 slots... druids shouldn't be allowed to even cast a dot on bigger mobs because it could block better necromancer DoTs.

I mean two necros cast splurt, pyro, and funeral pyre that's 6 slots there.

Why wouldnt druids get to cast Winged Death? What matters here is what dots deals the most damage over time. The only necromancer dot that deals damage faster then WD is funeral pyre. The only shaman dot that is faster is Bane of Nife. After those comes winged death. The low resists of WD also makes it very suitable for raids, especialy compared to BoN.

The problem would have been that multiple necros could have cast Funeral Pyre, each instance of it taking up a slot. I don't take BoN into account, because shaman have better things to do than casting DoTs on the mob.

As noted above, however, it appears that Verant is going to be able to increase the number of slots per mob, which will be VERY helpful. Yes, this will give a raid a reason to have more than one or two druids on the raid.

Of course, without aggro control, I suspect there will be a lot of dead druids at raids in the near future....:)

Yes, Funeral pyre is deffinitly worth it over WD. Actualy, the main argument against having druids using dots are that they have other things they can do compared to necromancers.

Are Bane of Nife and Funeral Pyre the only dots faster than WD ?

funeral pyre is a lovely dot, but realistically many other necro dots are not as good as wd. speed is a factor in boss mob fights, and the druid dots have an advantage in that they are all fast versus the 90-120 seconds necros are stuck with on many of their dots. an 1800 damage dot over 90 seconds isnt as good as a 1500 damage dot over 60.

According to EQ.CastersRealm.com today, they made a 'breakthrough' regarding the 15 spell limit.

Scott Hartsman followed this up recently with a breakthrough from the EQ Live Team:

...Each copy of a DoT takes up its own slot, due to duration, focus, and damage credit differences.

We definitely know the effect that would have on DoT casters on raids. (Between Rowyl and Jahaar and the boards -- I get it. I swear. ;)

However, after some massive late night rewriting, we have an answer to the 15 slot limit for NPCs. We should be able to extend it out at least a little now.

We'll have to see how far we can take it, though - adding a pile of new slots to every NPC in the game could have some pretty bad side effects that we'll be monitoring and tuning on test...

eq.crgaming.com/viewartic...ticle=4486 (http://eq.crgaming.com/viewarticle.asp?Article=4486)

Haha, now I know that know one reads before they post. Check page 3 and page 4 of this post for that same information. Of course, there will still be people posting here that this wont mean squat because of the 15 buff slot limit. ;)

However, after some massive late night rewriting, we have an answer to the 15 slot limit for NPCs. We should be able to extend it out at least a little now

Wow.

Does this mean that if we send a few pills and some coffee to VI the whole game could be balanced by next week ?

>>Haha, now I know that know one reads before they post. <<

...or possibly just overlooked it or made a mistake.

This already happens try this i noticed it today. Charm griffon in Karanas. And buff him with Sow one that you can tell if it wears off or not. Now wait for Charm to break he still has Sow on when charm breaks. Now Root him recharm and head for a zone when root wears off. Zone and immediatly zone back and track you griffon again. His sow will be gone cause you zoned. You know its not cause of your charm falling cause you let the charm fall off and he still had Sow on him when you were in the zone, but its gone now that you zoned. I am thinking its same thing enhancment buff or negative buff i really don't think it matters. Just thought i would share it with you guys.

actually I think that if he was FD and the dots did end up finishing Gore off, wouldn't Gore poof when the dots killed her?
Mobs don't poof from dots any more if there is an item of any sort on them. This was a fix made a LONG time ago due to people bitching about their hate/fear armor rotting if dots were applied. I think it was about a year after they made the change that raids started allowing people to dot mobs again. ;)