Was reading the cleric bored and came across this post by a guildmate. Was talking to him later in the game and realized I'd not thought of the negative aspects of these encounters.

Stuff that concerns me about all the requests/suppositions of fixed numbers encounters.

I've got a severe worry in general about the "fixed numbers encounters." Everyone already min/max's the game to an incredible extent. Fixed number encounters will cause that min/maxing to become even worse, and will basically cause certain classes to be excluded from raids in numbers more than 1-2.

Think about it from the point of having the best shot at finishing as well as doing it the fastest/etc. This min/ maxing will have a couple of classes being thrown in and out based on the necessity or lack thereof of crowd control, feign death pulling, snare/darkness, and evac needs.

Possibilities

6man

Clr, Shm, War, Rog, Enc (1 other melee sk/mnk/rng - based on encounter - note: shm may be tossed out and enc may do slows for more melee)

12man

Clr*2, Shm, War, Enc, Rog*4/melee (maybe dru/wiz depending on encounter)

18man

see above

One thing this will really do is further marginalize a couple of classes (especially if the encounters don't require huge piles of mana from the clerics)

First to be completely marginalized necros, mages, and beastlords.

Second to be marginalized druids - they don't bring much with them except circles, and for the most parts resists aren't that huge a deal and people can live with resist fire/cold since they've reduced buff counts.

Thirdly probably bards...since the utility of chorus's is not as apparent in smaller group sizes and it's not likely anyone is going to not take an enc anyway (just cuz of KEI.)

That's probably 5 classes that will be left out in the cold alot of times because of the needs for certain classes in fixed numbers encounters. And again just like the release of Velious, pure melee and clerics become more important.

I think fixed numbers encounters actually will increase pressure on clerics to finish their epic because combat rez's may well be a complete necessity during some of these encounters as well as the fact that when you have a fixed number that can go (2 groups say) do you take two epic clerics, two non epic clerics or one of each. If you have two epic clerics you will probably go that route so they can mana free rez each other in a worst case scenario.

Thecklos
High Priest of Brell
Rodcet Nife

Anyone else concerned about this? Even if they did take a dr00d, I can see them only taking one or so and then they will take the highest aap, geared, etc they can. I love my guild and think they have fairly positive views of druid, but with only 6-12-18 etc number of spots, why include us or more then one of us if they can avoid it. One more rogue would be alot more effective then having 2 druids. I hope alot the encounters have decent dr00d only items that "force" us to be allowed along...

Actually, encounters with a fixed number of PCs will help the non specialized classes. The reason the specialized classes are so important now is because you only need a few generalists on a raid. Because of that, you can load up on specialists to fill a very specific role. You need more damage output, you grab more rogues, monks, or wizards.

In encounters with fewer people flexibility will be an asset. The "perfect" groups are some of the least flexible.

Actually, encounters with a fixed number of PCs will help the non specialized classes. The reason the specialized classes are so important now is because you only need a few generalists on a raid. Because of that, you can load up on specialists to fill a very specific role. You need more damage output, you grab more rogues, monks, or wizards.

In encounters with fewer people flexibility will be an asset. The "perfect" groups are some of the least flexible.

Yer smoking the wacky tobaccy again ain'cha?

People take generalized classes on xp groups because they can't always find the "perfect" group...not because they don't want to. If every group could be a war, monk, enc, cler, rog, wizard (if evac needed) it would be.

Gah.

I sure hope not.

This was the dubious concept behind PoA. You notice no one ever goes there until someone really, really, really can't put off the epic steps any longer.

And yes, it is the annoyance of 24 keys per isle (the way it was meant to limit) that makes that plane suck so very, very much.

Is there anything from Verant indicating this is a possibility? I hear a lot of rumors about this or that being in PoP. While I am sure some people have inside information, I think first "this is just some more BS someone dreamed up." Then I think "maybe." Then I think "It is such a bad idea it won't survive testing anyway."

We will see what if any of these ideas that have been drifting around (no CH zones, fixed number encounters, etc) actually appear in October. So far I am betting Zero of the ones I have seen.

The fixed number encounters was mentioned by verant in the video from E3. By limiting the number of people in an encounter they can tailor the encounter to work the way they want. Currently they have an encounter for 6 people, but what happens when 12 turn up to it.

I believe this would be more of a reinforcement for the specialist classes. Tailoring the 6-person encounter to a group of generalists will just make the encounter trivial for specialists, and vice versus (specialist encounter impossible for a generalist group). And believe you me guilds will only take that which they need, so druids/bards/hybrids at least Velks etc will be emptier (only thing is all the specialist classes have gone to PoP).

The only way i can see this helping all classes is if there is limitations on what classes can actually enter. That'll never happen.

18 man group - four clerics (epic), two warriors, one enchanter (epic), one shaman, ten rogues (chaotic stab AA). Two warriors just in case the first one dies, four clerics is usually enough for most CH orders, and ten rogues can outdamage most anything out there. Enchanter and Shaman buff/debuff.

You could also replace the rogues with ten mages with epics and have a pretty devistating team while doubling the number of tanks with their pets. I think you have a better chance of finding ten rogues than ten mages though.

Single group encounters wouldn't be bad. Our versatility pays off well in a single group. Two groups and we drop down a lot because it is easier to cover what we can do. Three or more and we are pretty much unneeded. With an encounter that a single group can handle, it can hurt some of the specialists. A warrior, for example, could be replaced by a paladan who gives backup healing, buffs, and excelent taunt. The hp difference would be very small since the paladin (assuming level 60) would have brells which would also give everyone else in the group more hp. Or you could bring a shadow knight for their atk buffs and debuffs and the ability to pull. Going with that, a druid would be good for the backup healing, extra damage, buffs, and evac.

Of course, clerics would still likely be the only required class for nearly every encounter. Enchanters would probably remain in high demand, but a good bard is nice to have too.

Well, I'd say it depends on the type of encounter. I'm almost positive one - two druids would be in a list of that size, but I just would be surprised if more were needed.

One or two good druids can be really key in a situation, but the problem is we make up such a large percent of the server population.

lol I see so many problems with this idea that arent related to druids at all I hope they scrap the whole thing personally

ten rogues can outdamage most anything out there.

off topic, but have you seen what a ranger with Endless Quiver + Archery Mastery 3 does for "encounter" level mobs? One of the rogues in my guild starts foaming at the mouth whenever you say "ranger damage output" because he can't compete with them and he has primal + epic etc etc...

Ok, back on topic now :)

The only "scenarios" in which I would "pick" a druid for 1-2 group "ring" style sequences is where there is alot of variation in the type of mobs you fight and the tactics for how to handle each one. To be honest though, I think the initial statements were valid, this will marginalize many people in serveral classes because their class isn't "ideal" for the encounter.

It will be a shame if most of PoP turns into a new variation on AE groups, where there is a list of people waiting for each space in the group and people won't even be added to the list if they aren't class 1,2, or 3...

Hell, come to think of it, how far down the hand-out list are most druids for Sleeper's Keys?

Incidentally, to follow up on my first paragraph: Verant is notoriously unimaginative, so I expect that most encounters will seem "new" and "interesting" to begin with but will pan out into the normal grind that most of the game is reduced to.

I sense another nail on the druids' coffin coming soon. :(

Maybe for end game. They promise content for all levels though.


For level 29 to 40 a druid is more usefull than a cleric most days of the week.


It's also possible to tailor encounters to REQUIRE certain classes. Picture this:

...............|...|...............
............._| G|_.............
.............|x....x|.............
.............|x....x|.............
.............\....../..............
..............|.B..|..............
...............----...............
..................................

Where 'G' is your group.
x is a level 50+ mob that sees invis and flagged "giant"
B is a level 60 mob that will despawn after 30 seconds.

You are allowed to bring 12 people. Can you make it?

Without a druid, probably not. With harmony, you just run right on by and get to the boss.

They could also do some interesting things with forcing druids/wizards and rogues to work together.

Picture this:

.................| Room |...............
.................|..............|...............
..................\............/................
....................\........./.................
......................\....../..................
........................\.../..................
.........................|B|...................
.........................|..|...................
......................../....\.................
........................\.X./.................
..........................--...................

Where B is the boss mob that's wide enough you can't
get around him, permarooted, and X is the succor point.


I guess my point is to try and think outside the box, and hope they are.

Interesting but I would not give them that much credit.

Yes it is a great game and we are all kind of addicted. But there really are not a lot of fights that are that complex in their vision.

If they were attempt to create these highly specialized "need one class" type fights two things would happen:

1) There would be some way to work around the problem without the favored class which no one thought of.

2) The fights would tend to be overdesigned and would be avoided by most guilds since they are, by definition, not inclusive. My guild has a policy that says all members are welcome to all raids all the time. When we raid just as our guild anyone can come. These 12 toon fights would be things people would do in exp time. Toys if you will. Not raid content.

Um Planes of Power is being made for pretty much only those over level 50. The pre-50 content is basically the instant ports to all cities + some quests in the plane of knowledge. The limited number encounters wont be the main raids of PoP, but it sounds like alot of the non-largescale raid content will be based on setting up zones similar to Cazic Thule or encounters that limit the number of people who can attend. Neither scenario encourages the druid class as cleric/shamans reign supreme in those areas.

I think Wyrdlan's thoughts in the above post are noteworthy, and I'm hoping more people will speak up with ideas for what I'll refer to as "concept" encounters.

Verant's designers might not be the most imaginative on their own, but they are certainly capable of siphoning and 'borrowing' ideas (otherwise I seriously doubt anyone from VI would bother visiting class boards).

There are *already* zone features and encounters set up to require certain class-specific abilities. Among the most obvious are locked doors that need to be opened by a sufficiently skilled rogue or bard in order for group(s) to proceed. To a lesser degree, there are many mobs which are defeated more easily after being debuffed with spells only castable by classA and/or classB, to such an extent that those classes are considered "required" in the raiding party. Also consider the many boss-level mobs which rely upon the MT using /defensive to survive long enough to establish aggro and get a CH rotation going.

It wouldn't take a supreme imagination to design scores of encounters which required specific abilities of every single class. Granted, VI may need to create some new abilities for less specialized classes (uhh.. druid comes to mind), otherwise the added value and innovation of concept encounters is defeated.

Unfortunately, I have a feeling that lurkers from VI tend to visit the general forums of most community boards, and not get around to reading many of the topic-based forums. That's the one major drawback I see for having "Class Balance" as a separate board, even though I can understand the original motivation for separating it.

~Firemynd

Not following the sub 50 comment. Might be something in someone elses post?

Anyway for non raid content, I strongly feel it SHOULD be zones like CT. High experienc, high challenge, decent rewards.

These multigroup things are by definition raids, even if mini ones. I suppose they could be seen as giving smaller guilds something more likely to be available for them to do. However, I think it is more likely that the challenge of the fights will strongly favor the very strong guilds, and it will be multigroups from these very strong guilds on each server that monopolize the content.

It of course would all depend on the rewards. If the rewards are not too amazing, the really strong guilds might not bother I suppose.

But still, that makes this raid content for younger to mid level guilds that do not allow all members of the guild to attend.

It sounds pretty screwed up to me.

When you look at a 6-12 toon encounter, if a druid managed to get there somehow, they would be expected to be a healer and the healing power of a druid in these situations will be lacking in power, for the very fact the encounter is made for 6-12 people only. If a druids heal is adequate then just having one cleric there would make the encounter trivial. To have a druid on these encounters for damage output would be highly unlikely as a tank class (rogue/ranger/monk) or other caster (mage/wizard) would be able to do the equivelant and most times more.

I guess it all comes down to the individual encounters and how Verant set them up, but it still leaves no room for a class that is second to fourth in any given field. The fixed size encounters will leave no room for error, and players will play it that way.

Gotta agree Geddine.

I seriously doubt they could come up with a design that really requires a druid.

Remember too...rangers get harmony at 22. Any encounter designed around harmony and limited members (and so needing max dmg) would mean rangers would have a spot...and druids if there were no rangers around.

That is of course just one example. But since the original question was would this be bad for druids, I would have to say yes. Remember there is no skill we have someone else can't do better...or at least nearly as well.

Ok ONE idea. Very very unlikely. Mob is immune to cold, poison, disease and magic. But mob is high FR but not fire immune. Then our FR debuffs would matter since they would be the only ones that land.

When you look at a 6-12 toon encounter, if a druid managed to get there somehow, they would be expected to be a healer and the healing power of a druid in these situations will be lacking in power, for the very fact the encounter is made for 6-12 people only.

Actually, I doubt the druid would be wanted for a main healer. The druid in a single group situation would be the backup healer, nuker, snarer, and evacer. Things don't always go exactly as planned. Who heals the cleric? Who heals the enchanter when mes breaks and the cleric is in the middle of a CH? I know my cleric likes having me for backup heals as much as I like having her for main heals.

Now, when the encounters allow more than six people, but are still restricted on the number of players allowed, druids are hit hard here. You don't need versatility when you can bring enough to have the specialists.

If I remember correctly, Absor stated that they were designing encounters requiring different tactics than the typical Warrior/Cleric combo. I won't hold my breath though.

Of a different note, limiting encounter sizes could be kinda neato if they make single/duo encounters. Imagine, "Test of the Druid", you enter these halls and have to use your every druid skill just to make it through and meet your party on the other end. Again, I won't hold my breath.

I have a feeling druids have made their high end dissapointments known. Maybe they will be adressed in PoP. Maybe when I look at the expansion spells in PoP, I won't get angry as I did with Luclin.

Didn't they say the same thing during Luclin about breaking down the cleric / warrior thing? And the result was that now you need even more of both?

pretty easy to to make druids a viable choice compared to clerics. just have the mob cast an unresistable stun for 0,1 seconds every 9 seconds.

another method to make druids more wanted. make the mobs hit faster, not hit for higher damage. this way our damageshields would be a viable tool again.

or make dots casted by different chars stack. imagine 10 druids casting winged death on a permarooted mob.

harmony... they just started to make harmony useless in several encounters (CT, Yelinak, ...). I don't think they will revise that. they already stated they don't like the zero risk aspect on that spell.

what I'd really like to see are mobs immune or highly resistant to piercing/slashing/blunt weapons, similar to mobs being immune/resistant to fire/magic/cold. this would make nukers generally needed more, but I doubt this will make it in.

like all of us I'm hoping PoP will make things better for us druids. but as VI already said, PoP will be new contence, not a new game engine. so don't expect to much.

cu
Turrwin Trickle
Hierophant
Innoruuk

Can shaman shrink outdoors?


How about an outdoor zone with a tunnel to the good mobs. It'd take you X amount of time to get through it while ducking. Every X/2 a massive trap goes off in the tunnel causing damage and dispelling buffs. The Boss is immedeately on the other side of the tunnel and is very agro.

The trap would be rogue disarmable, but there would only be room in the tunnel for one player at a time.

Solution: Group wolf form.

Other solution : Werewolf form, possibly amulet of necropotence, etc.

Not trying to be difficult, but the point is there is really absolutely nothing we can do that no one else can in some way.

It would require very elaborate circumstances to create an encounter where druids are the best choice. I don't think VI will take the time to design that carefully. And I don't think players would like the results much if they did.

Other solution : Werewolf form, possibly amulet of necropotence, etc.

Not trying to be difficult, but the point is there is really absolutely nothing we can do that no one else can in some way.

It would require very elaborate circumstances to create an encounter where druids are the best choice. I don't think VI will take the time to design that carefully. And I don't think players would like the results much if they did.

Beyond our own needs though, I think these limited number encounters are a really, really bad idea. If they want to do something like this have them throw it in an arena quest like Sanctus Seru. People who feel inclined can go screw around with the encounter if they want.

This sounds like "Ring of...." release #2. I hate the rings. Yes, the very good thing is they are always up. But really they are very arbitrary and all about grinding time away more than they are about strategy. Bring enough people, give them clear tasks, and kill, and kill, and kill, and get great loot.

These limited member encounters will all be about overpowering the mobs too (imho).

That is the only way I can see of really opening up the priest selection. Code some encounters where you can not use complete heal at all.

Clerics would still have best HP buffs and some added healing punch. 5%+ and REZ

Druids would be interesting choice because of utility.

Hmmmm that would be something. New Zones where Complete Heal is not reachable.

How many healers would you bring in 6 Man group if Complete Heal was not an option. What would the "ideal" be. 2 Healers 4 Damage, 3 and 3?
It would be fun playing and tuning what classes/mixes
actually work

They added Harmony Immune Mobs, why not CH incapable encounters.

((yeah yeah would take recoding probably but ic an dream))

The difference is that they had no way of limiting the number of people in ring encounters. My understanding is that there will be essentially a group gate spell cast on a group to take them to their own private zone. Because only 6 people can go, VI can make the loot much better than any other 1 group encounter, simply because they don't have to worry about 30 people coming and simply brute forcing the encounter.

If I had to make a well rounded, capable group of 6 people, I definitely wouldn't go with specialists, except for maybe a cleric.

Tank heavy group:
Paladin ;)
Shaman
Ranger
Bard
Cleric
SK

Well rounded group:
Paladin ;)
Shaman
Ranger
Druid/Mage - depends on if you need another rooter/snarer or more damage
Bard
Cleric

Hybrids and generalists are much better choices the fewer people you have.

Hybrids and generalists are much better choices the fewer people you have.


That's pretty silly. Of course you want the specialists. You are going to need to kill stuff, avoid being killed, mop up if things are going badly, and probably crowd control.

There are two cases (1) CH is allowed in these zones, (2) no CH in these zones.

If CH is allowed 1 cleric is more than enough to do all the healing that you are going to need. You'll probably want an enchanter if crowd control is necessary. You'll want a warrior for tanking, they do more damage than hybrids, and they make CH better due to more HP. You may want a shaman for the slows, although the enchanter may be able to handle it. Let's say you want him. Then you either want damage dealing. Depending upon the AC of the MOBs you are going to want rogues, magicians or wizards. You'll probably want one magician for sure due to modrod and heck for the damage.

If there is no CH in these zones, then if there is a decent probability of death then you will want EXACTLY the same thing. Since rez is so huge.

If the probability of death is low then you want a shaman instead of the cleric since they heal better (that's broken) due to topor and canni. The question is can you get away with one shaman or do you want 2. Heck, you probably want 2 due to their insane mana regen which makes for insane damage dealing.

If you want to be efficient I can't see why you would want a druid in your party in PoP.

Okay, I am one of the more vocal supporters of druids needing upgrades, but it is getting silly here when people don't see the value of being versatile in a single group encounter. If you think we are worthless in a single group (that has a cleric), you are selling yourself way short. It is multigroup encounters where versatility becomes meaningless.

I've said most of this before, but I'll say it again ;) For a main tank, warriors are better tanks 30% of the time. 70% of the time defensive is down and they don't tank any better than any other melee class. The hp difference between a warrior and a paladin will be lower because the paladin brings brells. As a bonus, the rest of the party will have more hp. Paladins also bring loh and a nice group heal that they can use while tanking. SK's bring atk buffs and debuffs which will lower damage taken and increase the parties damage output. Either of those will out taunt a warrior. Your damage dealer or slower won't have to hold back for fear of stealing aggro, it just won't be a problem.

Now, for crowd control, you can bring a chanter or bard depending on the situation. Bards are more versatile, but chanters are more solid in tough crowd control.

A shaman is great in any group. The buffs bring tons of hp and increase damage output nicely. But, if you have an enchanter, the shaman slow is only slightly better and their haste is way down. They can backup heal better than a druid if they have torpor, but they don't do quite as much damage and can't evac. Either would work well though depending on the makup of the rest of the group.

Clerics are a must. Not much else to say there.

Pulling can be done by many classes. Rangers and bards are great if there is room, monks are the best if fd is required, but sk's and even necros can do this as well.

Backup healing is a must. Who heals the enchanter when mes breaks while the cleric is in the middle of a ch? Who heals the cleric when that ch draws too much aggro? Those are easier situations, so you just can't have too much backup healing.

Damage dealers are monks, rogues, wizards, rangers, and the pet classes. It is nice to work these in where you can.

My prefered group makup would look something like war/pal for the tank(sk's work, but I can play the warrior or paladin), monk for damage and pulling, rogue for damage and other stuff, enchanter for crowd control and buffs, cleric for the obvious, and druid for everything else. I would put that group up against any other group for what we can do and where we can do it.

but they don't do quite as much damage


Ok if you say so. You would think that damage done by a caster is a function of mana regen, mana ratio, and clickie items. Shaman toast druids in the mana regen category, druids have better mana ratios but only with DDs if DOTs are of any use in PoP (and that is a big if .. but I would guess there is a good chance) then they have a better ratio, and they have better clickie items.

Even if DOTs are useless (due to MOBs dying too quickly) they do better damage. If their DOTs are useful then they do WAY more damage.

Druids will be useful for snare and evac. That's about all I can see. Maybe Evac will be a really big thing. But then why get a druid when you can get a wizard? But to be honest the difference in nuking between wizards and druids is pretty small, so maybe druids get a slot there.

Okay, I was thinking mostly quick damage because dots aren't always so useful in exp groups. But when they are, we can still go toe to toe with them in dot power and our best dot has very low resist rate. They have the pet to throw in as well, so overall we may be pretty close in damage output. They do beat us out on mana regen, but we take them on versatility. I also don't believe shaman can interupt a casting mob, but druids can help out there too (another thing I would like to see, the expansion of our indoor castable, magic based, stunning nuke line).

Druids will be useful for snare and evac. That's about all I can see. Maybe Evac will be a really big thing. But then why get a druid when you can get a wizard?

I don't know about your groups, but in my groups there is often some if not a lot of backup healing needed. The thing that gets me killed more than anything else is healing the enchanter or cleric. Of course, it almost always saves the rest of the group by buying the enchanter some time, so I feel my job was done. I have even seen times when it takes both me and the cleric spamming fast heals on the enchanter until things get under control. And you also have the advantage of not having to heal yourself if you get aggro. Healing yourself just increases aggro, so I heal the cleric and she heals me which helps the tanks get aggro back. Don't ever think backup healing is useless. I just wish we had better tools for backup healing, especially on raids where the ae damage or some riposte damage can drain my mana pool in no time flat.

You'll want a warrior for tanking

/chuckle


Single group encounters are the bread and butter of the paladin. We dramatically outshine warriors in normal groups. Go check the Steel Warrior sometime and see how they feel.

I could accept the flexibility as a benefit logic if the encounter were unknown. That might be true the first time or two.

AFter that, the encounter will be sliced and diced and the group optimized.

As with everything it will come down to groups of friends doing many of the smaller things.

But I would not count on druids being able to heal a little and nuke ok getting a spot in a group of 12 that already has a cleric and a shaman. When it comes to the damage side, the optimal choice is always melee (rogue particularly), or a wiz or a mage for casters.

Perhaps if it were a 12 person or 18 person encounter and the mob's challenge was an insanely high regen druids could get a spot...along with necros and shamans...to stack dots on it to counter the regen so the tanks could kill it.

Slow is broken. Groups without a slower are either being bored in safety or are idiots. 600 mana and a shaman rapes a mob, the same classess with slow also have some of the highest mana regen in the game and bring melee haste to the group. For 600 mana a druid can do @#%$, heal half a dozen attack rounds of a mob if they're lucky and then suffer one of the slowest manabar regens in the game.

Healing, as was said, either you need a cleric (or shaman and rezzer) or you don't need healing. It's that simple. Even with people somehow deluded that druids are healers it just isn't true. Even with the huge bonuses druids have gotten with AA, focus and the removal of the penalty druids can't heal enough and they sure as hell can't take the agro from healing.

Damage. We can do it in most cases in the current game, hopefully still in PoP, but we can't sustain it without going to Vex Thal. While meleers pound out their constant 100dps or whatever druids who aren't FT15, KEIed and bardsongs quickly burn out trying to keep up with melee damage and then fall flat on their face and end up being a drain on the group instead of an advantage a ranger would have been, heck rangers have far better group buffs than druids anyway. Yes, druids can switch over to heals but I find it so rare, like evaccing, that I can get away with just having either moonfire or nature's touch/chloro/NR memed for a night and not both.

So unless PoP is dominated by animals with 0mr immune to enchanter charms I just don't see a place for druids or a way to make one without hurting the other classes too much. We don't have 10 to 1 heals, 75% slows, crowd control beyond what 90% of the other classes also have or serious long term nuke or short turn high damage nukes. We're just going to have to hope for some AMAZING class AA or spells coming to us with PoP.

in a group of 6, we'll have a great chance. These usually are friends. When it comes to the 12-18 man encounters it will depend if they are short anyone. Then we might we able to get it, that or we luck out and are good friends with who ever is running the encounter...

in a group of 6, we'll have a great chance. These usually are friends.

That last sentence seems incomplete. Perhaps it should say:

"These usually are friends -- who are honest enough to tell you that for best chance of success, they'd appreciate it if you would log your <rogue, cleric, shaman, monk, etc> alt."

For concept and/or fixed-number encounters to be a positive addition to this game, VI will need to bring EQ's "Holy Trinity" chapter to a close, and begin writing a new chapter with some new plot twists. Three years is long enough to allow one primary strategy to dominate the vast majority of raid level encounters.

To do otherwise, will be Verant's final admission that in spite of relatively vast resources in programming, design, and content writing, they are unable to adapt sufficiently to the maturation of their game's character base. In an RPG, you simply cannot give away all of the generalist abilities to specialist classes and expect a "generalist class" to thrive. You either have to evolve generalist class(es) towards some significant specialty, rethink encounter design, or some combination of the two.

SOE/VI has been extremely fortunate to have an MMORPG last this long, but if they can't get this PoP expansion right at such an advanced stage of the game's development, I think they might have to kiss goodbye much of the support they would have gotten from many existing EQ1 players.

~Firemynd

They could always just disable CH in the planes zone. The disable CoH in zones, they can disable CH.

*ducks*

LOL! That is silly. I have a 60 warrior(6k hp, AE taunt), bard, rogue and access to 57 cleric if we were desperate and we do so much better in the group when I play the druid it isn't even funny. I bring a lot to my group and it isn't out of pity. If people think you offer nothing to a party then either it is because the pathetic opinion of druids here is worn off on others and they dismiss you.

Slow is broken.


You know it. Like I've been saying for some time in the PoP zones I would like a couple of fixes:

1. CH -- gone
2. Topor -- gone
3. Slow formula changed to attack_rate = old_attack_rate * (1 + slow percentage).

And maybe nerf the crap out of whatever right click items give good healing (I don't know which ones are still busted). If they do they things would be a lot closer to balanced.

All I can say is CH disabled in PoP is going to be a given, the spell has been the bane of the VI content people since its inception, any encounter can be overcome given the right amount of tanks and clerics. Just think they are all planes of the gods, clerics have their spells bestowed upon them by their god. What makes you think Tunare would be able to reach her cleric in Plane of Fire to bestow that cleric with the spell.

But even without CH a clerics healing/HP buffing power is superior to a druids. Even a shamans is better.

Generallist work better the smaller the amount of people you have. A 6 man group can work well. But I have had groups with a cleric/shaman/ranger/chanter/mage/druid. Well guess what the only job I had was nuking/doting, becuase everyone else did my other grouping abilities better than I did.

3 person encounter - Holy Trinity
4 person encounter - Holy Trinity/druid or bard
5 and up - start replacing what is needed from the druid or bard with the specialist classes.

But if CH is not disabled in some zones in PoP I'll be majorily surprised.

[signature out of bounds]

Will never happen.

I will kill a gnome if they actually do CH free zones in PoP.

Much as the spell is broken, it is exceedingly difficult to create an encounter that is challenging, has significant risk, and is playable without relying on big dmg and big dmg mitigation/recovery.

There are simply no other tools in the game that can achieve that like CH can.

Bah imho all this is false speculations, would be right if we lived in a world of mindless robots, but per chance we are humans :)

The main factors that'll make choose the people who come in restricted number encouters will be the loot expected to drop (wich classes will benefit?), your dedication in guild and/or if you are cool or are a moron, not the fact you are a druid or a wizard or a shadow knight.

Yes maybe some classes will have a guarantee sit, that'll be probably shamies if mobs are slowable, enchanters because we can't live without KEI anymore, possibly warriors (even if Furor say they suck /bite) and yes... clerics, 1 or more monks if splitting of mobs is needed.

But once you got the few minimals, then the rest of people will be chosen based on other factors than just the class, not based on the criteria of "the perfect group", wich is a newbie attitude imho, any good guild out there would do it like I said, and one reason too is because it's more fun to do it that way, we got 12 online ? not the right classes ? who cares ? let's try !

You know, we all have our evils, I play mostly a cleric, and nothing piss me off more than receiving a reply like "oh sorry we got 2 spot open, but already got a cleric so we can't group you", it usualy give me a strong feeling of talking with newbies. ;)

" I will kill a gnome if they actually do CH free zones in PoP.

Much as the spell is broken, it is exceedingly difficult to create an encounter that is challenging, has significant risk, and is playable without relying on big dmg and big dmg mitigation/recovery.

There are simply no other tools in the game that can achieve that like CH can. "

I strongly disagree. In my opinion, CH removes the challenge and significant risk from most encounters. Arguably, if you have enough tanks and clerics with CH, any encounter is virtually trivial because of that "big dmg and big dmg mitigation/recovery."

Try taking a 35th level group with standard equipment into Temple of Droga. No CH, but there will be challenge and risk -- even moreso. If well played, your group can succeed with most encounters throughout the zone (except for a few boss mobs designed for higher level). Why? Because clerics and other healers STILL have tools at their disposal to mitigate/recover damage.

Sometimes I think many of us forget how much fun EQ could be for mid-level raiding without uber gear, buffs that double your hitpoints, and a heal that recovers all damage taken. The game would be MORE fun and MORE enjoyable for ALL priest classes if encounters could be designed on a scale based upon fixed heal amounts instead of the "one heal fits all" spell. :)

~Firemynd

Did I say kill? that is not much of a bet if so...I do that anyway.

Kiss, it was kiss. We are talking about something really unpleasant here.

At any rate, yes I do remember the old style raids with relish (hell my guild did that make a newbie character and raid Crushbone thing not too long ago).

Anyway, the raids you are describing are like those up through Kunark or so. The risk is a lot of mobs/adds and so is about crowd control. Those same zones work just dandy as exp zones since 6 people can sit in an area and get very limited agro. A raid in the same zone is messy and big and just drags in crap adds constantly (ie a single group can get to say Chardok royals area with much less headache than a full raid could since the situation is so much better controlled).

I don't think they could recapture that as a risky zone at this point. People camp the plains for Exp these days.

"The difference is that they had no way of limiting the number of people in ring encounters. My understanding is that there will be essentially a group gate spell cast on a group to take them to their own private zone. Because only 6 people can go, VI can make the loot much better than any other 1 group encounter, simply because they don't have to worry about 30 people coming and simply brute forcing the encounter."

sounds a lot like the AO missions!

Removal of CH in general in PoP won't, can't happen. While not true for lower levels, for 60s with good gear the fact is either you need CH for an encounter or you don't need much if any healing and you're just being bored. Unless, of course, all the damage in PoP is coming in as lure based non melee so how well equipped and AAed a meleer is means nothing... happy tanks!

Does nothing for encounters outside of PoP too.