With the release of TSS and the gain of equinox burn at a higher level than dawnstrike and focuses losing some of there potency what would be worth it? I currently have Vish cloak but I can't decide what spells to use, equinox or dawnstrike. Equinox being a 600+ to dd with a cost of 100 more mana and dawnstrike having its mod and the chance to have a 50% focus. Which would be worth it? I save more mana on dawnstrike because mana conserve only goes to 70 too. Ive tried figuring this out myself but it fluctuates to much ;p. Same question goes for sunscorch and vengeance of the sun.

Depends on the situation - Whether you need larger burst dps, or better mana conservation.

The new nukes, Winter's Frost withstanding, cost too much mana for chain casting, and Im a highend geared druid. I always use the older nukes if WF won't suffice b/c I can hold out longer, the only exception to this is when I don't need to conserve mana, which does not happen nearly often enough.


PS: As long as it's gonna land, WF > *.druidnuke

Winter's Flame is good for one thing only in my opinion. Breaking Devlin's shield.

Winter's Flame is good for one thing only in my opinion. Breaking Devlin's shield.

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Provided you can control the aggro and one side is not resisted fully, Winter's Flame will out DPS any other Druid nuke imo.

Aggro issues are far less with Slieght of Hand 3 maxed.

-Fenier

I haven't done any parses to prove it, but feel that critting on the "full value" of the spell (ie Equinox Burn) is better than halving the value to which your crit can apply (which is what happens with each "wave" of Winter's Flame).


Does anyone know if there's any restriction to dmg-increase focii applying to WF like there is with rain spells? What about crit-rate modifiers, I looked at Lucy but nothing's leaping out at me...

Provided you can control the aggro and one side is not resisted fully, Winter's Flame will out DPS any other Druid nuke imo.

Aggro issues are far less with Slieght of Hand 3 maxed.

-Fenier

If you have any aggro issues with the spell, it's because the tank is doing something wrong, especially in the case of raiding. And as Galain said Devlin, that means they are doing DPoB, and the only mobs in DPoB that resist one of the two hits is Mayong (cold) which is the only mob I don't use WF on.

I haven't done any parses to prove it, but feel that critting on the "full value" of the spell (ie Equinox Burn) is better than halving the value to which your crit can apply (which is what happens with each "wave" of Winter's Flame).


Does anyone know if there's any restriction to dmg-increase focii applying to WF like there is with rain spells? What about crit-rate modifiers, I looked at Lucy but nothing's leaping out at me...

There's no restrictions on WF for crits or foci, both are applied to both hits just like any normal nuke. I have also had far, FAR more 10K damage combined crits with WF than I have had with either single resist nuke when I am using them, which doesn't happen except when I can afford to blow the mana on them since they are so damned mana intensive to use.

I'm bored, and wanted to work this out for a while now in relation to our epic click degrading, so...

I'll use my own focus, both because that's easiest for me, and I believe they're all the highest mods available with a level 70 undegraded max, therefore favor Dawnstrike - any combo more powerful is preferable to Equinox Burn.

Dragon Fire (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=6764&source=Live), +50% fire at level 70
Avariciousness of the Aneuk (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=6479) +20% detrimental mana pres at 70
Alacrity of the Aneuk (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=6477&source=Live) +23% detrimental spell haste at 70

Skipping some written math or this would be huge. Also, I'm getting some of the values from in game like casting time and mana cost wearing no focus, so things like SCM, quick damage and spec (alteration) can be ignored for everyone who has them.

Dawnstrike (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=8011&source=Live) -- base damage 2125, 482 mana, 7.0 sec
With mods, no focus -- average damage 2255, 399 mana, 6.3 sec
With mods, and focus -- average damage 2775, 361 mana, 4.7 sec
damage / mana = 7.68
damage / sec = 399

Equinox Burn Rk. II (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=9912&source=Live) -- base damage 2861, 608 mana, 6.25 sec
With mods, no focus -- average damage 2861, 485 mana, 5.6 sec
With mods, and focus -- average damage 3281, 458 mana, 4.5 sec
damage / mana = 7.16
damage / sec = 485

Now, assuming 1 in 3 druid nukes lands while the druid epic 2.0 effect is active, which I feel is about right for an exp group.

Dawnstrike (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=8011&source=Live) -- average damage 2949, 361 mana, 4.7 sec
damage / mana = 8.17
damage / sec = 424

Equinox Burn Rk. II (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=9912&source=Live) -- average damage 3421, 458 mana, 4.5 sec
damage / mana = 7.47
damage / sec = 504

My conclusion:
Dawnstrike is better if you prefer efficiency, Equinox Burn rk 2 is better if you prefer dps, and overall if you value dps and dpm equally, and regardless of epic use, Equinox burn rk 2 is the winner.

(
Some maths:
Dawnstrike damage with epic 1/3'rd of the time was the most complex, so here's how I worked it out (ignoring the chance of detrimental trigger, since it's unlikely and the effect is small), maybe I'm wrong:
1/4 chance, +50% blessing of the dawn -- (50-1)/8 = 6.125
+50% dragon fire -- (50-1)/2 = 24.5
1/3 chance +50% epic -- (50-1)/6 = 8.17
total = 38.79
focus damage -- (2125(38.79/100)) + 2125 = 2949
)

How does Winter's Flame stack up in this? I blew off finishing my 70 series for Dawnstrike when Winter's Flame came out and I realized I was getting a chance for a second nuke on a proc for an increase in 40 mana.

I have a 35 focus to 70 for Fire and personally have never had agro issues with Winter's Flame.

Winter's Flame for the High End Grouping Druid

This assumes both checks land, and factors in the highest focuses available

Winter's Flame RK II

Fire: 1717
Cold: 1475
Total Damage: 3192

Cast Time: 6.3 Seconds
Mana Cost: 539
Damage Per Second: 506
Damage Per Mana: 5.92


Now, factoring in Focuses:

Fire Focus: 30% to 75 via TSS Powered Up Arms, or Pyrewood Earring (AG)
Cold Focus: 30% to 75 via Sapphire Ring of Bromal Fury (FC)
Both average 15% which raises the damage to 3670.8

Mana Cost is adjusted by Mana Pres VI (Runed Diamond) which would average a 5% Reduction. Futher Mana Cost is reduced by SCM 3 for an additional 30% meaning an average of 35% reduced lowering the mana cost to 350.35

Spell Haste via Quickening of Druzzil (Augment, Longshadow 4 Hard caster reward) is 1.1 seconds faster then Spell Alacity VI. This lowers the cast time by 16.1% bring it down .97 to 5.33 seconds. Quick Damage 3 reduces this another 10% resulting in the cast time 4.7 seconds (I think my math its right, matches what EQ is showing me in game).

Based on these numbers, you result in the following:

3670.8 Damage for 350.35 mana in 4.7 seconds

Damage Per Second: 781.02
Damage Per Mana: 10.47

Damage focused while under the effect of a Druid 2.0 Click

50% focus degrades to 35% Max Focus or 17.5% Average

3670.8 X 17.5% = 4313.19 for 350.35 Mana in 4.7 Seconds

Damage Per Second: 917.7
Damage Per Mana: 12.31

It's early and I work 3rd shift, but those numbers should be pretty close considering the best focus available to a grouping druid.

EB RKII with the 30% Focus from TSS Arms: 3290.15 Damage averaged, 380.65 less then WF RK II, at the cost of 69 more mana. It is also at level 74 that Spell Alacity VI equals Quickening of Druzzil (Degraded).

I haven't done any parses to prove it, but feel that critting on the "full value" of the spell (ie Equinox Burn) is better than halving the value to which your crit can apply (which is what happens with each "wave" of Winter's Flame).
EB RK II : 2861 | 5722

WF RK II: 3192 | 6384 (Assuming both halves Critical) 10% More Damage

WF RK II: 3192 | 4909 (Assuming Fire Critical, Normal Cold) 16.5% Less Damage

WF RK II 3192 | 4667 (Assuming Cold Critical, Normal Fire) 22.6% Less Damage

Winter's Flame does more damage Non-Critical, and more Damage when the full spell critcals. You also get more chances to Critical with Winter's Flame because each part may critcal, where you only get one chance with EB.

Only in the event that EB Critcals and WF Does not (or only in part) EB deal more damage, but even then does so at a worse Damage to Mana Ratio. (See my above post)

My numbers for Volatile Mana are 25% chance to critical. So lets play pretend:

EB x4 - 1 Critcal: 14,305 Damage

In the same amount of time, you can cast Winter's Flame 4 Times, and two will crtical, so we'll go with 1 Fire Critical, 1 Cold Critical and 2 Normal WFs: 15,958 Damage - a 10% Increase, thusly - it all evens out, and WF matains its 10% edge in damage provided both halves hit due to it casting more strike, and thus criticaling in whole or part - more often then EB.

Does anyone know if there's any restriction to dmg-increase focii applying to WF like there is with rain spells? What about crit-rate modifiers, I looked at Lucy but nothing's leaping out at me...
Fire and Cold Focus apply as normal.

IMHO you need to add the recast time to the casting time to get any meaningful dps value in the end.