http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070328/ap_on_re_us/plastic_bag_ban

I like the idea and would love to see SoCal push the same.

Yes, the proposal sailed through our Board of Supervisors because it's very practical. Petroleum-derived bags harm the environment and there are environmentally friendly alternatives readily available.

There's no reason to vote against it, unless you're a libertarian who opposes legislation just for the sake of opposing legislation.

So what is the alternative to using plastic bags? (not being sarcastic - really want to know)

The law, approved 10-1, requires large markets and drug stores to offer customers bags made of paper that can be recycled, plastic that breaks down easily enough to be made into compost, or reusable cloth.

Im not a cloth fan but I know ppl who are, I havnt used plastic in ages I always ask for paper.

So what is the alternative to using plastic bags? (not being sarcastic - really want to know)

The word 'plastic' can mean different things.

What's being banned in SF are petroleum-based bags. The two most common ones are polyethylene and polypropylene. These take a very long time to degrade.

Plant-based plastics have been available for many years. They are more expensive than petroleum based plastics. They are bio-degradable and are much better for the environment.

I personally think that using petroleum-based plastics for things such as shopping bags is wrong. Remember when we used paper bags? Petroleum-based plastics should only be used where material strength and stability are important.

There's no reason to vote against it, unless you're a libertarian who opposes legislation just for the sake of opposing legislation.
:rolleyes:

There we go with that crusade again.

Hey, I'm all for bettering the environment. Bet you didn't think that was the case. I also question all legislation. I question all authority. I want the real reasons for proposed laws to be brought out and I want to be sure there isn't a simpler or better way to get to achieve the same goal. I only bring it up because absolutely nobody has complained yet you feel compelled to start firing off that L word of yours.

If I must be labeled. Label me a Jeffersonian.

Yes, the proposal sailed through our Board of Supervisors because it's very practical. Petroleum-derived bags harm the environment and there are environmentally friendly alternatives readily available.

There's no reason to vote against it, unless you're a libertarian who opposes legislation just for the sake of opposing legislation.

Legislation should be opposed just for the sake of opposing legislation sometimes.

Laws shouldn't be passed except for very good reason.

I haven't read the article, I just checked it off as another whacky San Fran thing.

So what is their alternative to plastic? back to killing trees for paper again?

So what is their alternative to plastic? back to killing trees for paper again?

It is better than killing trees for landfills ...

But besides paper, which can be recycled into new paper bags, you also have more permanent shopping bags. It is not all that hard to remember to bring your own. I am fairly sure if a 2 dollar pollution tax were applied to plastic bags people would remember to without fail.
Wasting oil to make bags that are used once and then thrown away to either create huge heaps somewhere, or are burned without at least the benefit of moving a car or airplane is rather irresponsible in my opinion.


Eri

Cloth bags are good if people use them, but come on, lets be serious here, if you ban plastic, pretty much everyone whos not already using cloth bags will just get paper. (Which is most likely better, but nonetheless, cloth bags arnt a real alternative to most of the population)

A permanent bag is a good solution. The packsack that I use for camping make a very usefull bag when it is the time for shopping. And it make a very usefull limit on what I can buy on a trip (sorry darling tha bag is full, not that work eatch time...).

Eridalafar

my point isnt that cloth bags arnt agood replacement in theory, but in practice most people wont use them, takes effort to remember

Cloth bags are good if people use them, but come on, lets be serious here, if you ban plastic, pretty much everyone whos not already using cloth bags will just get paper.First, it's not all plastic that's being banned, just petroleum-based plastic. The large retail outlets that are affected can switch to biodegradable plastics, and they probably will.

Second, in San Francisco, canvas bags for shopping are quite common. At the market where I shop, they even give you a 10 cent discount for each bag of your own that you bring in, and many people do. They also banned plastic bags on their own, long ago.

I want the real reasons for proposed laws to be brought out and I want to be sure there isn't a simpler or better way to get to achieve the same goal.The real reasons are that petroleum-based plastic bags can't be recycled, take up landfill space, and harm marine life, and that there are readily available alternatives to them.

There is no simpler or better way to prevent this, than to prevent the distribution of such bags through the major retailers.

City residents are generally pleased with the law.

my point isnt that cloth bags arnt agood replacement in theory, but in practice most people wont use them, takes effort to remember

Which, if you think about it, is a really pathetic excuse to use highly polluting plastic bags. It is not so much an effort to remember to bring a bag if you go buy something as well as people can not be bothered to. Just make them buy the thing at close the cost to produce and to recycle it. You would be surprised to see how many people suddenly develop a working memory then.


Eri

It is better than killing trees for landfills ...

But besides paper, which can be recycled into new paper bags, you also have more permanent shopping bags. It is not all that hard to remember to bring your own. I am fairly sure if a 2 dollar pollution tax were applied to plastic bags people would remember to without fail.
Wasting oil to make bags that are used once and then thrown away to either create huge heaps somewhere, or are burned without at least the benefit of moving a car or airplane is rather irresponsible in my opinion.


Eri

Who the hell uses their plastic shopping bags only once (unless they rip)? I have about 50 of the things under my sink in the kitchen. They're great for all manner of uses, from wrapping up containers of food for ease of carrying leftovers, to using while sifting through the cat litter.

I swear, those little plastic bags are some of the most convient things we ever created.

First, it's not all plastic that's being banned, just petroleum-based plastic. The large retail outlets that are affected can switch to biodegradable plastics, and they probably will.

Ah, well that's fine then. If there is a reasonable replacement in biodegradable plastics then what's the issue?

Ah, well that's fine then. If there is a reasonable replacement in biodegradable plastics then what's the issue?There isn't one. Which was my original point: there's no reason to oppose it, unless you're a libertarian who opposes legislation just for the sake of opposing legislation.Who the hell uses their plastic shopping bags only once (unless they rip)? I have about 50 of the things under my sink in the kitchen. They're great for all manner of uses, from wrapping up containers of food for ease of carrying leftovers, to using while sifting through the cat litter.But eventually, they end up in the trash, because they can't be recycled. And then they harm the environment by taking up space in landfills and hurting marine life. Biodegradable and recyclable plastics will break this cycle.