View Full Forums : AA Cost of Gathering of the Spirits Lowered
Fenier
04-06-2007, 06:55 PM
http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?topic_id=109366
Nodyin writes:
We're going to reduce the cost of Gathering of Spirits by 1 point per rank. When this gets patched to live you'll see a 3AA refund if you have all of the ranks of this AA.
Just for conversation would it make sense to just remove the Convergence of Spirits AA completely? You would have to wait 1 more level to get the same type of Heal but it would reduce the overall cost of the line. Currently there is just one more line of AAs on the Druid side than the Shaman side for the same (essentially) AA Heals. This would bring the two "trees" in line with each other.
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-Nodyin
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If you have something to say on the matter, please post it to that thread.
Madie of Wind Riders
04-07-2007, 03:07 AM
Wow - what a thread - heh. Took an evil turn there for a bit - but I think that most of the druids have the same opinion, that the CoS line would be ok to drop if the cost was more in line with the shaman line.
BTW, thanks Fenier for always taking the high road in those explosive tirades ;) I appreciate your thoughtfulness on the issues at hand and trying to keep everyone on task and in line with what the devs wanted from the original spell.
Fanra
04-07-2007, 04:17 AM
Ok, I see the cost will now be the same as the Shaman line?
Now how about giving us separate timers like they have? :)
Scirocco
04-07-2007, 01:07 PM
I wish that would happen, but it doesn't seem likely:
It's a misconception that one class can "get another class nerfed." It's just not true. Weight of numbers, shrill posts, PMs, /tells in game and Emails do not move us to change something based on the volume or passion of response. If an issue is raised we look into it and determine if we need to make any adjustments. I've heard about this issue before but not with any real clarity. Looking into it today the full magnitude of the situation came clear to me.
The "correct" thing to do, in this case, would be to link the AA timers of the two Shaman abilities. The fact that they are not on the same timer is a mistake, pure and simple. The single target version of the group heal AA for both the Druid and the Shaman was envisioned as a very powerful concentrated version of the group heal. To balance the power of the single target heal it was supposed to have the same timer as the group heal. In one case it did. In the other case, sadly, it did not.
Now there are posts in this very thread asking for the timers of the Shaman abilities to be linked. If that decision is made it will not be because of those posts. Rather it will be based on an examination of all of the spells and AAs that exist in the game for ALL healing classes to determine what the balance implication of this error is and will be. While we are all aware of the inter-personal dynamics of EQ class relationships we don't really base our decisions on that.
Noken
04-07-2007, 10:13 PM
Of course there were 3 issues, not just 2. They addressed the AA cost of the single target version, and may do something about the shared timers great. But what about the part where druids pay for their group version 3 times over (spirit of the wood, spirit of the grove, spirit of the ancient grove) and shaman pay for it twice over (ancestoral aid, ancestoral favor) yet both lines work out to exactly the same HP / tick from grove 3 and ancestoral aid 3 onward - compared to shaman we buy the first entire set (wood) for nothing.
Fenier
04-08-2007, 10:03 AM
I think we will likely continue to pay the extra cost for Spirit of the Wood due to the fact we get it several levels lower. Personally I am ok with that.
I've been thinking about it, and I do think CoS should be removed, that makes the AA difference 9, but we get the extra functionality of getting a mgbable heal at 61.
-Fenier
Kitano
04-08-2007, 09:30 PM
And along came Fenier,
And Thenerfbat Followed with him....
WTG fen 3 cheers !
Fenier
04-09-2007, 02:42 PM
And along came Fenier,
And Thenerfbat Followed with him....
Not so much, no.
serinity_inny
04-09-2007, 03:07 PM
Am I missing why we would want to loose this AA? I use this ALL the time (I am a group druid but still) 3k direct heal with 4-5 ticks 1500 heal.
This invaluable for me and other grp druids, heck even kiters when we are getting hit or the wizzy gets hit I pop him with this.
What am I missing besides the DS the raiders don't like this?
Cibby
Fenier
04-09-2007, 03:19 PM
you misunderstand.
Nodyin is asking for feedback on CoS (the DoD AA). Presently we pay 30 more AA for Gathering of Spirits then Shaman pay for Union of Spirits.
Once the GoS reduction goes live, it's still a 27 AA difference for equivlant healing.
Assuming we still pay the cost of Spirit of the Wood up front, which is 9 AA, we still pay 18 more AA for GoS then Shaman pay for UoS.
Nodyin is asking if we want the DoD removed / modifed in cost (not power), etc to lower that 27 AA difference. CoS (if I remember right) costs us 18 AA to max. He's not promising, but he is looking for feedback.
Removing CoS (but keeping GoS) would more equalize the cost between the Shaman and Druid Lines while keeping the amount healed balanced.
The result of removing the DoD AA would mean we pay only 9 more AA - justifiable via our earlier levels we get Spirit of the Wood, as opposed to 27 more AA.
-Fenier
Fenier
04-09-2007, 05:01 PM
http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?start=100&topic_id=109366#1539225
Here are the changes that we will be making:
Reduce the cost of the Druid AA line Gathering of Spirits 1 point per rank to match up with the Shaman version.
Unlink the timers for the Druid AAs Spirit of the Ancient Grove and Gathering of Spirits.We looked at the impact of unlinking them and the question was basically how powerful the single target spell would be if unlinked and Prathun, Rashere and I feel it won't have an unbalancing effect to unlink them, despite the fact that the original intent of these Abilities called for them to be linked.
serinity_inny
04-09-2007, 06:31 PM
thank you for your explanation and your hard work....I will now get the Ancient one (as I was mainly using the tss single target one on tanks or whomever got popped for fast heal/hot)
Fenier
04-09-2007, 06:40 PM
Further update on the overall AA cost for the Line:
I'm not going to make any changes to that AA or its costs right now. I want to wait a bit and see how these changes play out and think about the implications a bit more before I rush into anything. Right now I'm just not comfortable making any changes to the lineup.
http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?start=100&topic_id=109366#1539298
Riverwinter
04-09-2007, 09:26 PM
Keep it up Fen and I am going to transfer my toon over to Cazic so I can hold your coat while you settle disputes in a gentlemanly manner. :cool:
Tenielle
04-10-2007, 10:16 AM
This is great news. No longer do I have to evaluate saving a tank with CoS or saving SoTAW for MGBing (which I rarely use anyway).
Good work!
Laurelleii
04-11-2007, 01:09 PM
Awesome change!
Fanra
04-11-2007, 10:11 PM
It sounds like they finally woke up to the fact that druids were, once again, getting screwed.
However, the statement that the 'fix' won't be going live anytime soon while they 'continue' to look at the issue has me worried.
Basically, it looks to me like they were going to fix it and then they realized that this would mean that druids would no longer be treated as the Red Headed Stepchild so they halted everything.
I would like to thank you, Fenier for continuing to work on this.
But the conflicting statements about how they will fix it and then they change their mind and say they will just think about it some more has me worried.
Fenier
04-11-2007, 10:42 PM
He said he's not further evaling the AA cost changes past the 3 AA refund at this time until he sees how the delinking works, from my understanding.
nduma
04-13-2007, 04:24 PM
Delinking Grove/Gathering lines is going in, as is changing Gathering cost to 5 AA per rank (resulting in AA refund for some).
The continued looking at this part is solely for the extra AAs we pay for:
a) Spirit of the Wood that is a predecessor to the Grove lines.
b) Convergence of Spirits predecessor to Gathering of Spirits
In both cases we get option for an AA group and single target HoT earlier than shaman but, when we get an upgrade to the AAs, shaman get a very similar AA in amount of healing but, no predecessor AAs.
The question becomes do we eliminate the SotW and Convergence completely or keep them and reduce the cost.
Eliminating them rules out druids that to get to level 70 and then get those AA before leveling again. Honestly - how many druids are doing this ?
Reducing the cost of those two AAs. This leaves the option for some druids to get SotW/CoS at their respective levels before levelling onwards. Downside still have paid more AA for the same Heal Over Time as another class once the AA lines are maxed.
The other argument you'll hear against removing/reducing the AA cost is a lot of us already benefited from having SotW/Convergence prior to Grove lines and GoS, so that's the price of it. I really don't think is a very valid argument and counter it with well, that's true but, since we do pay more AA and if the AA cost isn't going to be reduced, then increase the heal amount per tick for the druid versions to show the AA disparity.
Fenier
04-13-2007, 04:49 PM
Druids get Spirit of the Wood the same time Clerics get their AA HoT. They heal similar amounts. You can't compare to just shaman and I don't think anyone has proposed to remove Spirit of the Wood.
The complaint is soley based on CoS, because it's an AA line we share with only Shaman, and they get to avoid this pre-req, and the 18 AA cost simply by leveling once to 71.
-Fenier
Alaene
04-13-2007, 06:01 PM
Copy of post I made at the EQ Live Forum:
We already have on the table two options:
1) Remove CoS & refund the AA; or
2) Level the cost across CoS/GoS so that druids/shaman pay roughly the same (with perhaps some levelling given the druids earlier option to obtain the ability)
This hasn't addressed SotG/SotAG vs. Ancestral Aid, but obviously the same options could apply there if deemed necessary.
My preferred option, after thinking about it further, is to do the following:
3) Leave CoS in game - offer a refund to druids who don't want it any more. This addresses the 18aa overspend; AND
4) Remove the CoS prereq from GoS (allowing new druids to skip CoS if they wish, addressing the cost imbalance); AND
5) Unlink CoS and GoS timers. This allows druids to keep CoS on it's refund if they wish, adds a SMALL extra healing tool to the druid toolbox AND justifies the additional 18aa spent should druids decline the refund option.
Despite what the obvious trolls will say, line item 5 is certainly not going to be unbalancing, especially when you take into account the current "big picture" balance position of the three priest classes.
Palarran
04-13-2007, 09:05 PM
Regardless of what ends up happening with AA costs, I'm thrilled that the timers will be unlinked. Thank you!
nduma
04-14-2007, 01:05 AM
Druids get Spirit of the Wood the same time Clerics get their AA HoT. They heal similar amounts. You can't compare to just shaman and I don't think anyone has proposed to remove Spirit of the Wood.
The complaint is soley based on CoS, because it's an AA line we share with only Shaman, and they get to avoid this pre-req, and the 18 AA cost simply by leveling once to 71.
t
-Fenier
Actually I do compare it to just the shaman HoT because SotW is a pre-requisite to the Grove lines because in the end we end up paying more to heal the same amount. Only to get the AA a bit earlier.
If SoTW needs to be balanced what clerics get at that level then don't make SoTW a pre-requisiste to the Grove lines. Otherwise to me I have an issue for the AA cost for both lines and both need to be looked at.
Erianaiel
04-14-2007, 07:46 AM
Druids get Spirit of the Wood the same time Clerics get their AA HoT. They heal similar amounts. You can't compare to just shaman and I don't think anyone has proposed to remove Spirit of the Wood.
The complaint is soley based on CoS, because it's an AA line we share with only Shaman, and they get to avoid this pre-req, and the 18 AA cost simply by leveling once to 71.
-Fenier
Or leave it in but make it no longer a prerequisite?
hmm. that probably makes no sense
Eri
Silxie
04-19-2007, 02:44 AM
Thats great that we got them unlinked and shaman didnt get them nerfed. Yay!
ohioastro
04-19-2007, 08:49 AM
My timers are still linked. Is this a known bug for others?
Starlene Antares
04-19-2007, 10:58 AM
Nope yesterday mine were unlinked
ohioastro
04-19-2007, 11:16 AM
I do not have the TSS ones - just convergence of spirits and spirit of the grove. Are these two delinked for others?
Grendyl
04-19-2007, 12:50 PM
I posted about this on the SOE boards, only the TSS AA line Gathering of Spirits is on the new timer, Convergence is still coupled to the group HoT line. However, I personally am delighted with the current situation, any druid with at least GoS 1 now has a choice of using 2 single target HoT lines or 1 single target line and 1 group line as the situation demands.
Starlene Antares
04-20-2007, 04:18 AM
Oh I have the TSS ones, and so I didn't realize that they didn't unlink Convergence. That's probably just an oversight.
Gaennen
04-20-2007, 04:43 AM
I haven't finished these lines, so far I have convergance and SotG. Used SotG last night and Convergance grayed out too. So not un linked for me at the mo.
Is it just the end of each of these lines thats been un linked?
voronus
04-20-2007, 06:23 AM
However, I personally am delighted with the current situation, any druid with at least GoS 1 now has a choice of using 2 single target HoT lines or 1 single target line and 1 group line as the situation demands.
2 singe target HoT lines? How?
Micahle
04-20-2007, 06:55 AM
The "fix" implemented 2 lines. As it stands, GoS is able to be cast separately and Convergence, SotAG and SotG are all on another timer.. So GoS only blanks itself out but u can then use 1 of any of those other 3 listed.
More than likely they'll fix this properly with tonight's patch.
Gaminide
04-21-2007, 10:28 AM
So timer 1 = GoS and Timer 2 = Conv, SotaG, SotG, Sotw
What change do you expect, Cov to be moved to timer 1 (in the example above)?
Micahle
04-21-2007, 11:38 AM
Yes, that's what i expected and seems to be what they did.
*** AAs ***
- The Druid AA Convergence of Spirits is now on the same timer as the upgraded version Gathering of Spirits.
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