View Full Forums : Bush in holy gaffe


Klath
06-10-2007, 01:34 PM
As much as I dislike Bush as a president, I find this sort of thing really annoying. It's not like Bush was making fun of his silly hat or telling him that his dress makes him look fat. Hell, the Pope should be taken to task for not greeting Bush with a "How ya doin'?"

___________
Bush in holy gaffe (http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_2127232,00.html)
09/06/2007 14:10 - (SA)

Vatican City - US President George W Bush drew gasps at the Vatican on Saturday by referring to Pope Benedict XVI as "sir" instead of the expected "His Holiness", pool reporters said.

They could clearly hear the US leader say "Yes, sir" when the pope asked him if he was going to meet with officials of the lay Catholic Sant'Egidio community at the US embassy later during his visit.

A handful of pool reporters were on hand as Benedict greeted Bush at the door of his private library ahead of a private audience of about half an hour.

On his way to see the 80-year-old pontiff, the US leader apparently recognised someone he knew, and could be heard greeting the person with a casual "How ya doin'?"

The pool reporters also noted Bush's relaxed posture, crossing his legs "Texan style" while facing the pope across his desk in the private study of the apostolic palace.

Panamah
06-10-2007, 02:14 PM
Ok... note to Europeans, most of us Americans just aren't really good at remembering which honorifics go with which title. So can we take it as read that "sir" is a wild card honorific?

Anka
06-10-2007, 02:40 PM
Ok... note to Europeans, most of us Americans just aren't really good at remembering which honorifics go with which title. So can we take it as read that "sir" is a wild card honorific?

We can take it as read that Bush forgot the briefing he was given by his advisors on the plane over. These titles don't mean much nowadays though, and it's not as if Bush has been head of state long enough to work out these things out, is it? :).

Tudamorf
06-10-2007, 02:52 PM
He just has an informal, southern style and dispensed with the formalistic bull****. What's wrong with that?

Fyyr Lu'Storm
06-10-2007, 03:18 PM
I don't want my President referring to anyone as your holiness.

Sir, is more than acceptable.




Zombie worshipers, can go suck some mummified saint balls for all I care.

Erianaiel
06-10-2007, 05:07 PM
I don't want my President referring to anyone as your holiness.

Sir, is more than acceptable.


Uhm... it is just common politeness. You may not think so but for about a billion people the pope is indeed their Holiness, even God's voice on earth. Acknowledging that fact is something you should expect from your president as it is rude towards all the catholics in the world not to do so. If the american people called their president the 'grand poobah' then visiting dignitaries would be expected, and would, call him that.


Eri

LauranCoromell
06-10-2007, 05:22 PM
Here in the South addressing someone as Sir is a sign of respect. I'm quite sure the President didn't mean to in any way offend or be less than appreciative of the Pope's position. Everything I've read that he said about the meeting was very complimentary, he was in awe of the Pope and certainly respects him. With all of the meetings he's had, heavy travel and being ill himself I can certainly understand how he could forget and fall back on what is to him a familiar form of respectful greeting.

Klath
06-10-2007, 05:32 PM
Here in the South addressing someone as Sir is a sign of respect. I'm quite sure the President didn't mean to in any way offend or be less than appreciative of the Pope's position.
Aye, it seems silly to get bent out of shape over the syntax of their interaction when the semantics are vastly more important.

Fyyr Lu'Storm
06-10-2007, 05:33 PM
Eri,

You sound like one of the cannibal catholic death cultists yourself.

If I offended, I am sorry.

Anka
06-10-2007, 07:58 PM
Here in the South addressing someone as Sir is a sign of respect.

I think there's an apt phrase for that. When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

MadroneDorf
06-10-2007, 08:14 PM
I think there's an apt phrase for that. When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

Throw the christians to the lions?

Klath
06-10-2007, 08:16 PM
I think there's an apt phrase for that. When in Rome, do as the Romans do.
That didn't stop you guys from getting into a huff over Bush's comments during Queen Elizabeth's visit to the US. Shouldn't she have been a tad less 'withering' given the fact she was "in Rome"?

'Dumb Dubya' in right royal gaffe (http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_2110129,00.html)
08/05/2007 13:02 - (SA)

London - British newspapers were scathing on Tuesday about US President George W Bush's blundering welcome for Queen Elizabeth II, labelling him "Dumb Dubya" and saying he has the "gift for the gaffe".

Bush messed up at a ceremonial welcome for the queen at the White House Monday when he spoke of a visit paid by Elizabeth to mark the 200th anniversary of the US Declaration of Independence from Britain "in 17 - in 1976".

After the queen looked up at him from beneath her wide-brimmed black hat, he winked at her, before turning to the laughing audience and telling them: "She gave me a look that only a mother could give a child."

[More... (http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_2110129,00.html)]

LauranCoromell
06-10-2007, 08:23 PM
It is also entirely possible that during their private meeting President Bush did use the proper wording and was merely answering a question put to him in a polite way.

Gunny Burlfoot
06-10-2007, 09:11 PM
I always thought "yes, sir" was an acknowledgement of respect. Are you saying that was not a deep enough measure of respect?

It's not like Joe American walked in on the Pope and belted out "yo, dude, what's up?" This is the President of the United States, after all.

And before the Bush-bashing starts, even if you don't respect Bush as the man, currently in the Presidency, you respect the office, and the office of President of the United States means that you are close to the top of the food chain.

I'm trying to think of a situation where the President of the United States of America in which "yes, sir", or "yes, ma'am" would not be sufficient respect, and I can't think of any. Having the President of the US call you sir, should be enough, I would think.

I am not familiar with what goes on between meetings of the President and Pope, but another common practice if it were any old common guy approaching the Pope is to kneel and kiss his ring, right?

I hope the President didn't do that either.

Tudamorf
06-10-2007, 09:56 PM
That didn't stop you guys from getting into a huff over Bush's comments during Queen Elizabeth's visit to the US. Shouldn't she have been a tad less 'withering' given the fact she was "in Rome"?Please. Bush-bashing is a local pastime in San Francisco, and even here no one cared about his little blunder (which he immediately corrected). It's not as though the queen was offended by it.

Klath
06-10-2007, 11:35 PM
Please. Bush-bashing is a local pastime in San Francisco, and even here no one cared about his little blunder (which he immediately corrected).
I thought that by addressing Anka and quoting an article about the reaction of British newspapers that it would be clear I was referring to Brits (as opposed to, say, San Franciscans). I guess not.

Anka
06-11-2007, 04:36 AM
That didn't stop you guys from getting into a huff over Bush's comments during Queen Elizabeth's visit to the US. Shouldn't she have been a tad less 'withering' given the fact she was "in Rome"?

Ahem. The queen carried on and acted correctly. Nobody would have noticed anything if Bush hadn't put his foot in it even further by ad libbing, badly.

Erianaiel
06-11-2007, 11:28 AM
I always thought "yes, sir" was an acknowledgement of respect. Are you saying that was not a deep enough measure of respect?

No. It simply is not the traditional form to adress the pope. You simply say Your Holiness to the pope, Your Highness to a king or queen and Your Excellence to e.g. prime ministers and presidents. There is no particular reason anymore to do so other than tradition, but it is still something you do in public. If you intentionally do not then you are rude, and if you accidentally do not you are making a gaffe. If you consistently make such mistakes it tells something about you too, though as president of the USA you can get away with that more easily than less elevated individuals.


This is the President of the United States, after all.

Which is why it was noticed. The president of the USA has plenty of advisors and after 6 years in office should know better. Or at least should be able to remember what his advisors tell him. Of course everybody makes a mistake sometimes and none involved is going to make a big deal out of it. He should just try to make not so many of them. Outside the USA nobody understand his southern charm, and what is amusing to some can be a deadly insult to others.



I am not familiar with what goes on between meetings of the President and Pope, but another common practice if it were any old common guy approaching the Pope is to kneel and kiss his ring, right?

Only if you are a catholic so, no, that would not be expected of Bush. And even if he were catholic it still would not be expected of him (anymore).


Eri

Erianaiel
06-11-2007, 11:36 AM
Eri,

You sound like one of the cannibal catholic death cultists yourself.

If I offended, I am sorry.

Fyyr, it is getting tiresome this catholic bashing of yours.

And throwing in an insult in your 'appology' does not make you sound sincere either.

My faith or your faith has nothing at all to do with this. It is expected that when you adress the pope you call him Your Holiness. Saying that is respectful, not just to the pope or the office he holds, but also to the more than billion catholics in the world.
My personal opinion of president Bush will not prevent me from being polite and respectful to him should I ever meet the man. And I will make the effort of learning what the proper form of address and protocol is for such occasions.


Eri

Aidon
06-11-2007, 04:21 PM
Uhm... it is just common politeness. You may not think so but for about a billion people the pope is indeed their Holiness, even God's voice on earth. Acknowledging that fact is something you should expect from your president as it is rude towards all the catholics in the world not to do so. If the american people called their president the 'grand poobah' then visiting dignitaries would be expected, and would, call him that.


Eri

I wouldn't address the Pope as Your Holiness either. To address him as such is to admit he is holy. I do not believe he is holy or sacred. I would address him as Sir, or excellence, or even emminence, perhaps, but there is no man nor woman on this planet who I will ever address as "Your Holiness", any more than I'd bow to a pagan idol.

Tudamorf
06-11-2007, 06:03 PM
It is expected that when you adress the pope you call him Your Holiness.There are many things I'd call him, but that isn't one of them.

Panamah
06-11-2007, 06:18 PM
Erianaiel,
If the king of Thailand pronounced himself "Living God" or "Son of God" would you address him as that? Maybe many Thai people believe him to be.

Personally, I wouldn't, unless, of course they were going to behead me if I didn't, then I'd call him any damn thing they wanted. I'm not stupid. :p

Fyyr Lu'Storm
06-11-2007, 06:52 PM
Considering the atrocities the Roman Catholic Church have inflicted on humanity over the centuries, they deserve -as you say- a little bashing.

Erianaiel
06-12-2007, 01:39 PM
Erianaiel,
If the king of Thailand pronounced himself "Living God" or "Son of God" would you address him as that? Maybe many Thai people believe him to be.

Yes I would.
It does not matter if I personally believe he is a god, the son of a god or the voice of a god, or anything really. It is simply a matter of politeness to address him in the expected form.
Not to mention, to me, it would be arrogant to suggest that I know better than the Thai people, and rather rude to outright tell them so by refusing to address their king in the proper form they expect.


Eri

Panamah
06-12-2007, 01:49 PM
Ok, fair enough. I'm not sure if I would. I suspect I probably would simply because my desire to not cause a stir exceeds my desire to puncture the over-inflated egos of those in high positions.

Erianaiel
06-12-2007, 01:57 PM
Considering the atrocities the Roman Catholic Church have inflicted on humanity over the centuries, they deserve -as you say- a little bashing.

I guess you will submit yourself to the tribunal in the Hague for commiting just about every crime against humanity imaginable against the native inhabitants of North America (including using chemical and biological weapons, starvation, mass murder of unarmed civilians including women and children, abduction of children and quite a few more things than I can think of right now).

Oh, you mean you did not do that...


Eri

Klath
06-12-2007, 01:59 PM
It does not matter if I personally believe he is a god, the son of a god or the voice of a god, or anything really. It is simply a matter of politeness to address him in the expected form.
I understand your argument but there's a limit to the degree to which someone should be expected to abdicate their own beliefs for the sake of politeness --particularly in matters of religion where compromising your beliefs is an egregious slight against your own god/beliefs.

Aidon
06-12-2007, 02:05 PM
Yes I would.
It does not matter if I personally believe he is a god, the son of a god or the voice of a god, or anything really. It is simply a matter of politeness to address him in the expected form.
Not to mention, to me, it would be arrogant to suggest that I know better than the Thai people, and rather rude to outright tell them so by refusing to address their king in the proper form they expect.


Eri

Except, you know, its against some people's religions to worship false gods.

Fyyr Lu'Storm
06-12-2007, 04:43 PM
Eri,

I am not the one who bows down in front of the representation of a rotting corpse on a stick and prays, on a weekly basis.

I am not the one who seeks atonement and communion from my gods by eating symbolic flesh from another human being, and drinking his symbolic blood.

It is you who is in the death cult, Eri. Not I.

If the present President fails to provide the, self requesting self expecting, honorific to the present day leader of that death cult, as "Your Holiness", I have no problem AT ALL.

Opposite actually, no leader of the US, should EVER be asked too. Let alone be chided for not doing so.

And your faux indignation just seems silly to me, too.

Anka
06-12-2007, 05:44 PM
The question is not whether everyone should always use correct honourifics in speech. The question is whether a head of state should use formal address when invited to be guest of a foreign dignitary. The answer to that question is certainly yes.

If you don't respect the guy, or have some other chip on your shoulder, then you've gone wrong as soon as you arrange a formal meeting with a photo opportunity in front of the world's press. Once you're there with the reporters and their tape recorders you need to use the right form of address.

Panamah
06-12-2007, 06:04 PM
If one is showing appropriate amounts of respect, what's the big deal?

I'm sure most head's (and tails) of state probably do their best but occasionally the appropriate honorific is going to flee their mind.

So my question is, why, if one is otherwise being honorable and respectful, is that such a big deal?

Fyyr Lu'Storm
06-12-2007, 07:34 PM
Who among you think that 'Sir' is not respectful enough?

Anka
06-12-2007, 08:00 PM
So my question is, why, if one is otherwise being honorable and respectful, is that such a big deal?

It's like getting someone a birthday card. You can get them a cheap one from a local store. You can get them a nice card that they'll really like. You can make one yourself. The more effort you put into getting it right the more it will be appreciated.

Some catholics appreciate the Pope being called your holiness and appreciate Presidents making the effort to get it right. To be honest, I couldn't give a damn and I'm sure a lot of catholics will forget as soon as the newspapers stop running the story.

Fyyr Lu'Storm
06-12-2007, 09:34 PM
So when did just saying, "Happy Birthday", become disrespectful?



Instead of buying into the big huge commercial merchantilism machine that tells us that we must buy what we don't want to buy.

Tinsi
06-13-2007, 02:55 AM
The question is not whether everyone should always use correct honourifics in speech. The question is whether a head of state should use formal address when invited to be guest of a foreign dignitary. The answer to that question is certainly yes.

If you don't respect the guy, or have some other chip on your shoulder, then you've gone wrong as soon as you arrange a formal meeting with a photo opportunity in front of the world's press. Once you're there with the reporters and their tape recorders you need to use the right form of address.


QFT and all that. Well said, Anka :)

Erianaiel
06-13-2007, 05:04 AM
Eri,

I am not the one who bows down in front of the representation of a rotting corpse on a stick and prays, on a weekly basis.

I am not the one who seeks atonement and communion from my gods by eating symbolic flesh from another human being, and drinking his symbolic blood.

It is you who is in the death cult, Eri. Not I.


Still making assumptions and being deliberately insulting.
As I said, it is getting tiresome to read that. Same as with Aidon's **** filled posts. Try getting your points across without resorting to insults and I promise you I will pay more attention.


If the present President fails to provide the, self requesting self expecting, honorific to the present day leader of that death cult, as "Your Holiness", I have no problem AT ALL.

*shrugs* The president made a mistake and some journalists tried to make more of it than it was. You on the other hand seem to want to be intentionally rude because you are not a catholic, do not want to be a catholic and in fact appear to be virtually foaming at the mouth from the thought of catholicism.
Personally I do not like the catholic church and find many of their past and present policies repugnant, but that will not keep me from being polite.


Opposite actually, no leader of the US, should EVER be asked too. Let alone be chided for not doing so.

And your faux indignation just seems silly to me, too.

I am not indignified. I am simply explaining why what the president of the USA did was a social gaffe. Like it or not, part of the job of a president is to be a diplomat and so far Bush has consistently failed to act like one. And yes, it can be expected of the president of the USA, too, to act polite and mannered.


Eri

Aidon
06-13-2007, 10:10 AM
QFT and all that. Well said, Anka :)

If one wishes to be addressed by an official title, don't make the title offensive.

He is not a Holy being. He should not expect anyone not of his faith to address him as such.

The mere act of addressing the Pope as "Your Holiness" ascribes aquiesence on your part to his religion.

Anka
06-13-2007, 11:59 AM
The mere act of addressing the Pope as "Your Holiness" ascribes aquiesence on your part to his religion.

Yes. Why the heck do you think Bush visited the Pope? It's because he's an important holy man of a major religion. It's because he is "His Holiness". If you can't acquiesce then don't go to Rome as his official guest.

Panamah
06-13-2007, 01:34 PM
Yes. Why the heck do you think Bush visited the Pope? It's because he's an important holy man of a major religion. It's because he is "His Holiness". If you can't acquiesce then don't go to Rome as his official guest.
Good question... why did he visit the Pope? Maybe he just wanted to see the Pope Mobile close-up.

Aidon
06-14-2007, 10:56 AM
Yes. Why the heck do you think Bush visited the Pope? It's because he's an important holy man of a major religion. It's because he is "His Holiness". If you can't acquiesce then don't go to Rome as his official guest.

You misunderstand me.

Addressing the Pope as "Your Holiness" is de facto acknowledgement that he is a holy being and, by logical extension, acknowledging that he is the mouth of God on Earth.


His title is not a indication of piety, but an indication that he is a holy infallible being speaking for the Lord God Almighty Himself and his putative son Jesus.

This is beyond mere formalities, but a question of theistic and religious belief.

Further, I can't think of any other title in common usage in the Western World, were it is not acceptable to also address them as Sir or Madam, including the Queen of England (though general ettiquette dictates that initial greetings should use formal title...but after that its well acknowledged that it simply sounds strange and disrupts the flow of conversation to repeatedly address someone by their title).

Tinsi
06-14-2007, 02:01 PM
This is beyond mere formalities, but a question of theistic and religious belief.

Oh deary me, we cannot possibly do something that might even slightly TOUCH upon the subject of someone's religion. By all means, no, we mustn't. My delicate senses!! *hand to forehead, grasping for smelling salt*

Panamah
06-14-2007, 02:12 PM
This honorific thing seems to be an "Old World" hangup. :p

Anka
06-14-2007, 02:41 PM
You misunderstand me.

Addressing the Pope as "Your Holiness" is de facto acknowledgement that he is a holy being and, by logical extension, acknowledging that he is the mouth of God on Earth.


Not quite. You're only acknowledging that a significant number of people believe the honorific should be respected. Foreigners have always been able to adress royalty with honorifics without submitting to their royal command, say.

Aidon
06-14-2007, 03:48 PM
Oh deary me, we cannot possibly do something that might even slightly TOUCH upon the subject of someone's religion. By all means, no, we mustn't. My delicate senses!! *hand to forehead, grasping for smelling salt*

No, I'm saying that some religions would find it offensive, or outright against their religious beliefs, to acknowledge any sort of divinity on the part of the Pope, including, I believe, evangelical christianity.

MadroneDorf
06-14-2007, 04:37 PM
This honorific thing seems to be an "Old World" hangup. :p

founding fathers generally didn't like honorifics, hence we avoid them...

although we still call judges "your Honor"

actually the whole court system, espcially the supreme court seems sorta honorific.

9 old guys sitting on really high, above everyone else, in a marble courthose, wearing flowing robes deciding things about the way the country runs/works.

Panamah
06-14-2007, 04:51 PM
The costume does seem rather out-of-place in our mostly egalitarian society.

MadroneDorf
06-14-2007, 05:06 PM
Rehnquist even had golen stripes on his robe!

Erianaiel
06-14-2007, 06:43 PM
Not quite. You're only acknowledging that a significant number of people believe the honorific should be respected. Foreigners have always been able to adress royalty with honorifics without submitting to their royal command, say.

*nods*

Indeed. Calling the pope Your Holiness does not necessarily mean you personally believe is holy, but it does indeed indicate that you are aware that quite a few people do in fact believe that.
Considering that, it would be rather rude to effectively say to those people "I am right and you are wrong, and there is nothing you can do about it, so nyah" just because you believe you know better than they.


Eri

Gunny Burlfoot
06-14-2007, 10:35 PM
No, I'm saying that some religions would find it offensive, or outright against their religious beliefs, to acknowledge any sort of divinity on the part of the Pope, including, I believe, evangelical christianity.

I agree with Aidon. I'd call him sir, or excellency, or highness (he's pretty high up in the catholic church), reverend, or Bishop of Rome, if he wanted, and if I knew his beliefs personally, I could call him brother, but calling him Holiness is not gonna happen.

I believe quite a few Protestants might have been reforming something in the past involving the Catholic church. It might be in a history book. Part of that was a willingness to die rather than imply the Pope was anything but a really devoted Christian, that was also the respected leader of a large group of Christians.

Fyyr Lu'Storm
06-14-2007, 10:53 PM
Are you talking about this guy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther

Tinsi
06-15-2007, 02:14 AM
No, I'm saying that some religions would find it offensive, or outright against their religious beliefs, to acknowledge any sort of divinity on the part of the Pope, including, I believe, evangelical christianity.

Well, if you can't behave in the manner your host expects you to, don't accept the invitation.

LauranCoromell
06-15-2007, 11:45 AM
Or perhaps, in this case, be willing to accept a different honorific which shows as much respect but doesn't ask the speaker to compromise his/her own beliefs. I have a feeling we've spent much more time and thought on this than the Pope and the President did, they seemed to be fine with one another :).

Panamah
06-15-2007, 02:14 PM
Well, if you can't behave in the manner your host expects you to, don't accept the invitation.
Man, that would kill quite a few parties before they happen!

Tinsi
06-15-2007, 04:06 PM
Man, that would kill quite a few parties before they happen!

Clearly you need to choose your hosts more carefully. :)

Aidon
06-18-2007, 11:02 AM
Well, if you can't behave in the manner your host expects you to, don't accept the invitation.

I don't invite guests to my home and demand they call me "Your Worshipfulness".

Neither should he.

Tinsi
06-18-2007, 11:29 AM
I don't invite guests to my home and demand they call me "Your Worshipfulness".

Neither should he.

It's really not up to you to dictate how other people run their houses.

Aidon
06-21-2007, 12:48 AM
It isn't up to him to dictate Non-Catholics call him "Your Holiness".

Frankly, as the head of the Catholic Church, I'd be more inclined to call him "Your Evil Bastardness", given the Church history towards Judaism.

I'd compromise, though, and call him Sir or Pope. I wouldn't compromise my religious beliefs in order to appease ettiquette mavens though.

Tinsi
06-21-2007, 03:19 AM
It isn't up to him to dictate Non-Catholics call him "Your Holiness".

It is completely up to him to set the rules in his own house. Of all people, I'd expect you to agree with this, Aidon.

Madie of Wind Riders
06-21-2007, 07:25 AM
Frankly, as the head of the Catholic Church, I'd be more inclined to call him "Your Evil Bastardness", given the Church history towards Judaism.

Made me laugh!!! :thumbsup:

Aidon
06-21-2007, 11:10 AM
It is completely up to him to set the rules in his own house. Of all people, I'd expect you to agree with this, Aidon.

Tell me, Tinsi. If you invited King Harald to your home, and he accepted the invitation, do you think you'd get away with insisting he address you as Her Vikingness?

Why should the President of the US have to address the Pope as "Your Holiness" then?

As for myself, I reserve terms of respect for positions and people who deserve it.

I don't know Benedict from beans, except he was a Nazi, he was the head of the Inquisition, and he looks like Emperor Palpatine, so he hasn't earned my respect personally and you can be completely certain I have zero respect for the Papal position.

Gunny Burlfoot
06-21-2007, 12:55 PM
It is completely up to him to set the rules in his own house. Of all people, I'd expect you to agree with this, Aidon.

I find this whole sub-debate on whether Aidon should call the Pope "His Holiness" mystifying. For 3,000 years, the Jews have miliantly resisted against calling anyone or anything God or related to God except Jehovah. (Yes, I realize that name is an English transposition. You know what I'm talking about though.)

So if the Jewish people have committed suicide en masse for 3,000 years whenever forced to choose between calling someone who isn't God by anything that denotes holiness, godhood, or anything in the same ballpark, why then would you think he, above all others, would be expected to say the very thing his ancestors fought and died to prevent?

Mystifying, I say!

Fyyr Lu'Storm
06-21-2007, 08:34 PM
Mystifying, I say!

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZQI0Xm29To

Tinsi
06-25-2007, 10:39 AM
So if the Jewish people have committed suicide en masse for 3,000 years whenever forced to choose between calling someone who isn't God by anything that denotes holiness, godhood, or anything in the same ballpark, why then would you think he, above all others, would be expected to say the very thing his ancestors fought and died to prevent?

First of all because Aidon is one of the more vocal "my house, MY rules"-defenders here, second of all because this really isn't about Aidon as such. He started using the "me"-form as a way of justifying why George W. Bush shouldn't be expected to address his host as seen appropriate in said host's house. Of course we expect a higher level of correctness from a head of state than we do from a regular Joe.

But the bottom line is that no matter who you are, if you cannot behave in the expected manner in a certain social situation, don't put yourself in that situation. Even if you DO think that the expected manner is silly/wrong/whatever. And if you mess it up by accident, apologize and move on. It's called "manners".

Aidon
06-25-2007, 03:47 PM
Manners also dictate that a host no demand a guest violate his religious beliefs as a condition of invitation.

As mentioned before, a great number of Evangelical Christians would find it sinful and against their religion to address a mortal person as "Your Holiness" for the very same reasons that many Jews would refuse to do so. The President of the United States is Evangelical of some denominational belief.

Tinsi
06-26-2007, 03:18 AM
Manners also dictate that a host no demand a guest violate his religious beliefs as a condition of invitation.

*shrug* the whole "omg don't touch my religious beliefs omg ima faint" is a distinctly American one, got nothing to do about European manners whatsoever.

And you know - litterally - when in Rome..

Fyyr Lu'Storm
06-26-2007, 04:37 AM
When in Rome...

Treat them like Romans treated everyone else??




Is that what you meant to say?


I am absolutely clueless as to why they deserve or require some deference. I am absolutely clueless as to what, what, you people are defending.


Their sacrificial goblets to drink the Blood of Christ, are freaking made from the gold stolen from Jewish teeth, for fcks sake. Why are you EVEN having this discussion with Aidon?

Fyyr Lu'Storm
06-26-2007, 04:41 AM
I don't get it.

I just don't.



Please, for the love of your God. Please explain to me why the Pope should be revered by edit: ANY< ANY< ANY of us again.

Please, I plead with you.

Fyyr Lu'Storm
06-26-2007, 05:40 AM
When in Rome...?

Rape.

Murder.

Steal.

Torture.

Enslave.

Crucify.

Kill.

You guys really want us to do what the Romans do?

Anka
06-26-2007, 06:48 AM
Ok I'll turn this on it's head. When I went to a wedding in the US I was surprised to see that a lot of the young men were calling their elders Sir. It was used so often that I was wondering if I seemed disrespectful in not using it, even though I'd never consider using it in the UK, ever. It's just a custom really.

It's so customary to call the Pope "Your Holiness" that it gets noticed if it isn't used. That's what has happened.

Tinsi
06-26-2007, 07:19 AM
Fyyr? Bit too much caffeine today?

LauranCoromell
06-26-2007, 11:56 AM
Would the people who were so offended on the Pope's behalf have been less so if the President had done as some of you suggest and not met with him? Or would they have considered that a snub of grand proportions? I don't know if the President was ill and tired and forgot, or due to his own religious beliefs had to choose a different greeting but I do believe he was respectful and may have been handling the situation in the very best way he could.

No living person is going to be addressed as "your Holiness" by me, I certainly understand if the President had a similar feeling and dealt with the situation in the best way he could without compromising his own beliefs.

Panamah
06-26-2007, 12:05 PM
What I find interesting about this discussion is the geographical division in thought about this. The New Worlders have a much different view than the Old Worlders. I think perhaps it says that the whole reason the US was formed, to get free of the heirarchical institutions that were rather repressive in the first place, is still alive and well even many, many generations later and we just don't see the purpose behind these fancy titles and honorifics.

And the Old Worlders relish their traditions. Not a bad thing, IMHO.

It's just a difference in philosophy.

Aidon
06-26-2007, 02:23 PM
*shrug* the whole "omg don't touch my religious beliefs omg ima faint" is a distinctly American one, got nothing to do about European manners whatsoever.

And you know - litterally - when in Rome..

That's true, Europeans have been notably lax about common decency regardin the forcing of their faith on any and all they encounter.

Tinsi
06-26-2007, 02:28 PM
That's true, Europeans have been notably lax about common decency regardin the forcing of their faith on any and all they encounter.

It's a culture thing, I suppose - you'd be hard pressed finding someone on this side of the big pond describing "addressing a religious leader in the expected manner when visiting his residence" as "having someone else's faith forced upon them".

Aidon
06-26-2007, 03:05 PM
Well, its certainly better than the rack...

Of course Benedict was the head of the Inquisition before he was the Pope...

Anka
06-26-2007, 03:50 PM
I think perhaps it says that the whole reason the US was formed, to get free of the heirarchical institutions that were rather repressive in the first place, is still alive and well even many, many generations later and we just don't see the purpose behind these fancy titles and honorifics.

There isn't any great purpose behind them, any more than the purpose of addressing someone as Sir. It's just a matter of custom.

Tinsi
06-26-2007, 05:30 PM
Well, its certainly better than the rack...

Huh huh Aidon said "rack" huh huh /beavis

Fyyr Lu'Storm
06-26-2007, 09:06 PM
Fyyr? Bit too much caffeine today?
Alcohol, actually.

I'm sorry for the rants. But I was having fun.

Maybe too much, I even got suspended from MB last night.

Fyyr Lu'Storm
06-26-2007, 09:08 PM
And the Old Worlders relish their traditions. Not a bad thing, IMHO.

It's just a difference in philosophy.

Ya, they still retain their kings and queens even.

Most Americans would have a hard time stomaching those.

Stormhaven
06-26-2007, 09:38 PM
I'm not religious, but I do respect the office of the Pope and I think I would call him "Sir" as a sign of that respect. Honestly I don't think I could call him "Your Holiness" without cracking a smile just because to me, that sounds like as wise ass comment. So which is better? To respectfully call him "Sir," or to mind your manners and call him "Your Holiness" while chuckling in your head?

Panamah
06-27-2007, 11:08 AM
I think our Euro friends would prefer the later. They're probably all chuckling in their heads too. I'd have a hard time not inserting "ass" in front of "holiness" in my head.