http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/jun2007/db20070621_912042.htm?campaign_id=rss_daily

This isn't outsourcing, it's about granting educated foreigners (i.e., Indians) legal immigration status so they can do their tech jobs here in the U.S. permanently.

If the Indians can do a better or cheaper job while living in the United States, it means that the Americans are pricing themselves too high and the Indians should be hired to code those web pages or what not.

Why don't we just import everyone who will do any job cheaper? They don't mind living 20 people to a room, obviously we're just too expensive and too spoiled. What's wrong with us?

Why don't we just import everyone who will do any job cheaper?For Gamma/Delta type jobs, we should, and do.

They don't mind living 20 people to a room,That's Mexicans, not Indians.

Just as long as it isn't your job, huh?

Americans don't want to pull weeds in tomato fields, or pick cherries, or clean toilets at Wal*Mart.

I don't think anybody wants to do those jobs, but if you were to offer me 3 times my otherwise earnable salary to come work in your country I'd be pretty willing to do those jobs too. Guy only has to work a few months to cover his regular standard of living back home and he can take the rest of the year off.

Guy only has to work a few months to cover his regular standard of living back home and he can take the rest of the year off.Sounds like a win-win situation to me.

It's not a win for people who stay in the country where it costs a lot more to live. It just drives the average wages down so more people need to live 10 to a house. The working poor don't have the luxury of going back home to Mexico where their modest home only cost about 3000 US (An older figure) Mexico can't take millions of American slackers for 6 months a year anymore than the US can take millions of Mexican illegals working for peanuts. They should definitely not be taking anything less that minimum wage for any job so that there is no advantage to take them over a natural born citizen.

Hell, I've told my wife to move to Mexico and I'll just send her a cheque. Unfortunatly thanks to the Ford foundation and poor US relations, us gringo looking peoples aren't too welcome in the parts of Mexico not dedicated to tourism.

It just drives the average wages down so more people need to live 10 to a house.On the contrary, it allows me to buy cheaper produce, which gives me more disposable income. It hasn't affected my gross income one bit.They should definitely not be taking anything less that minimum wage for any job so that there is no advantage to take them over a natural born citizen.That would be illegal in either case.

I've seen tons of Indians who have come over H-1B work visas. They not only do coding, but administration, scripting and support and generally speaking, they get paid about 1/3 of what their American counterparts make; sending almost every penny of it straight back to their family. So not only are Americans losing jobs, but very little of the income generated is being spent on commerce within the United States.

And it's <i>not</i> just Mexicans who live 20 people to a room - as many of the Indians are recruited directly out of college after getting their PhD or Masters, the hiring company often brings them over in groups, and they already have shared living arrangements agreed upon within that group. It was a very common thing to smell a very strong odor of curry when you're checking out some of the apartment complexes within the heart of the hi-tech industries in the Dallas area.

From what I've observed, the average "workspan" of an H-1B worker was somewhere around 3yrs. Many of them would fulfill their agreement with their sponsor company, then return to India and live pretty comfortably on the money they've earned while in the US. Ironically enough, many become consultants instructing other Indians how to “act American,” or things of that nature.

I've seen tons of Indians who have come over H-1B work visas. They not only do coding, but administration, scripting and support and generally speaking, they get paid about 1/3 of what their American counterparts makeMeaning, their American counterparts are charging three times as much as they should. But for the Indians, the tech company would be making less money, and therefore charging U.S. consumers more money, and generating less profit for U.S. shareholders.

Again, it sounds like a win-win situation. Unless, of course, you're the greedy American who's demanding a wage three times as much as what you're worth.

The "American counterparts" require more money because it costs a lot more to <i>live</i> in America than it does to simply <i>survive</i> in America. When you split a $700 rent among five people, share food costs, gas costs, not make any (or very few) personal purchases, not plan for the future in your current living environment (ie: new car, new home, new anything), your cost requirements significantly decrease.

Also, as the initial video/article points out, while there may even be Americans who are willing to fill the positions even at the 1/3 salary, very few are actually able to say "yes" because the positions are not offered - they are filled before the first job posting even goes out. It is a lot cheaper for the company to hire the foreign workers not only because of salary but because of benefits. Many (if not all) of the companies will have separate work agreements with their H-1B workers than their citizen workers. These differences often include less vacation, less (if any) medical coverage, less (if any) retirement benefits, and the possibility of immediate visa sponsorship termination at the company's discretion.

So the benefits of hiring a foreign worker are not only based upon salary alone, but the total compensation package. These are also the people who will often end up using emergency rooms as their primary care physicians because of the lessened medical benefits; and yes, the US citizen generally ends up paying for their visit because if you're leaving the country, you usually don't care if you're credit's ruined by a hospital collection agency.

Frankly Stormhaven, if an Indian college student can do your (generic your, not you specifically) job as well as you can for 1/3 the pay, you're pricing yourself way too high.

You should either settle for "surviving" in America, or find a better occupation that pays you more. People do the latter all the time; look at the countless jobs machines have replaced in the past century, and how people have adapted.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, nor am I saying my job is even at risk. Luckily I'm in a position where I'll probably be making the hire/fire decisions for outsourced employees soon. I already make that call on our Helpdesk which is actually out in the Phillippines somewhere, and I know several friends who make that call for call center farms in Bangalore and Hyderabad. That being said, it's pretty clear that you don't have a clear understanding of exactly what all is at stake nor of how widespread the H-1B practice is in almost every industry.

Needless to say, these are not just helpdesk type jobs that are being outsourced; they include your general programmers, stock trading, banking, biotech, research and even "elbow grease" jobs like industrial machinery support. There is probably not a job in the US that can be done cheaper by someone else in another country but previously, the educated workforce was only available in the United States or in other "high cost of living" countries. The fact that India has ramped up its infrastructure and started providing serious "Western" level education with an affordable price tag to the majority of their youth, many other Asian countries are using India as a template of how things should be done. Twenty years ago, many of these governments wouldn't have imagined spending fiscal budgets on education for the masses, but now they're seeing that investing in that education will bring even more money into their pockets. And with an educated and cheaper workforce; you will not only see employers bringing these people to the United States, but eventually picking up roots and moving to those areas because eventually the savings will outweigh the potential loss to taxation. You have to understand that we are not trying to fill zero-education positions, we are trying to fill higher education jobs. The jobs that Americans are losing to the H-1B workers are not the guys cleaning up after the cows on the farm; they are PhDs, MDs, and Masters. If you can't see the problem with outsourcing higher level education positions, then you don't understand basic macroeconomics.

One of the very few aces that the United States has up its sleeve keeping companies here is the fact that if you are an foreign company with imported goods you can have tons of taxes levied on your products; compared to an American based company which probably has subsidies or other tax breaks given to keep the company there and provide jobs to US citizens. However as China and Southern Asia in general becomes more and more of a major consumer market, fewer and fewer companies will continue to pay the ~60% worker markup just to avoid the import taxes in the US because the US will cease to be the primary market. You have a very good reason to keep the US happy if you sell 95% of your goods there. However if you can cut your costs by 60% and sell 40% less if you move entirely to the Asian market, well there goes another layoff in the US.

However, China is not quite there <i>yet</i>. Its still got several years ahead of itself to become the true monster market that it has the potential of being. Meanwhile, the United States is pretty much paying for less homogeniously developed countries like Malasia, Thailand, India and the rest to become educated and ready for when the time comes when sales in China surpass sales in the US.

I work at a hi-tech cell phone company that hires a lot of people with bachelors and masters in electrical engineering. Most of the new employees are Indian and Chinese. Some newspapers are even outsourcing journalism jobs, although that is true outsourcing, not what this article was talking about. Now some papers have people in India writing local news... if that isn't weird.

I already make that call on our Helpdesk which is actually out in the Phillippines somewhere, and I know several friends who make that call for call center farms in Bangalore and Hyderabad.As I said, outsourcing, and allowing educated foreign workers to immigrate, are two different things. (Not that outsourcing is always bad either, mind you.)

Incidentally, though I can't read page two for some reason, the article in the opening post starts off talking about labor certification, i.e., permanent immigration into the United States, not H-1 visas, which are temporary (nonimmigrant) visas. If you become a permanent resident, you are in it for the long haul, and in effect an American. Your kids will be U.S. citizens and Americanized. What we've done is to increase the quality of the U.S. population, by incorporating premium foreigners into it.Twenty years ago, many of these governments wouldn't have imagined spending fiscal budgets on education for the masses, but now they're seeing that investing in that education will bring even more money into their pockets.Sounds like a plan to me. If only we cared as much about higher education as we do, say, putting nonviolent people in prison.You have to understand that we are not trying to fill zero-education positions, we are trying to fill higher education jobs.Obviously, tech jobs require some education -- but they are still largely gamma/delta type jobs. If we start regularly importing CEOs and such, then yes, it will be a problem.

If we start regularly importing CEOs and such, then yes, it will be a problem.

We have to wait that long for it to be a problem? Does this mean the US is going to become a country of CEO's? Thats a very small %, and in the meantime the masses are losing jobs to cheaper outsourced labor.

Why is it ppl wait until all hell has broken loose to worry about impact?

I happen to have np at the grunt lvl, americans should be striving to be more then employees at Walmart or McDonalds... but now they have to worry for the next tier up too? If we're asking for too much for our jobs, then wouldnt it stand to reason that cost of education should reflect salary? Because what will the encentive be to go to school and build up this debt if we have to spend the rest of our lives paying it off?

Its times like these I thank god im a "minority" who had lots of free money come my way to pay for school.

Very few companies I have worked with want their visa'd workers to become full citizens; generally they will use and abuse the labor for an average of 3yrs and then kill the work visa for a nonspecific amount of time, then consider bringing that person back into the United States at a later date after some "reset time". This is the new form of contract worker.

Remember back about 7 years ago when Microsoft got hit with the huge lawsuit by former contract employees? The contractors sued Microsoft because they had been employed as contract workers for multiple years but never offered full time positions, thus they had not be eligible for things such as stock options or employee stock purchase plans. This had all been spelled out to them when they accepted the hourly positions, but they sued anyway and the judge ruled in favor of the contract employees; saying that they should have been able to qualify for full employee benefits because of the length of time they had been contract employees. Microsoft was forced to pay quite a large back-sum of money to hundreds of former contractual employees (iirc - it was anyone who had been employed by Microsoft as a contract employee for longer than 90 contiguous days since 19xx - I forget the year).

This scared the living crap out of multiple companies. Contract employees were a way of them saving money - a generic calculation for employee cost was taking the employee salary and doubling it - this was the true cost to the company after benefits, insurance, and things like worker's comp were calculated. It's not exact of course, but it was a pretty good rough estimate. So, even if contract employees got paid overtime and made 20% more in their paycheck than full time employees did, they still cost the company less because the company was not responsible for those people's benefits. Most large companies also got the bulk of their hourly workers via a contracting agency which provided benefits for them (just generally not as "gracious" as the hiring company), and even after paying the overhead to the contracting agency, the cost of the contractor was still less than a full time employee of the company.

Now however, you generally won’t see many contractors with contracts extended more than 3 times without a 60 to 90 day “rest” period in between – which generally ends up to be around a year or two of total employment. Even those contracts are becoming fewer and fewer with the H-1B workers as they cost the parent company even less in total. Then those former visa’d workers go back to their home country and do their parent company another favor by training the next wave of low-cost, highly-educated employees to send over.

Effectively we are deleting the first and second level of the job tree in the United States. Many would agree that the helpdesk is a pretty generic starting point for most technical positions and that a generic coding job (ie: code cleanup or small apps) is the first step in a programmer’s life. However when a person graduates from college with a BS in Computer Science/MIS/Engineering – whatever, and they cannot get that first tier job as either an intern or part time employee, very rarely can they continue on to “step-two” of their career. Same goes for other industries like biotechnology – what biotech firm is going to hire a person with zero work experience to fill a mid-to-senior level position? As this goes on for a number of years, the “no qualified applicants available” becomes a true-to-life scenario as we will have zero experienced workers in our work pool. CEOs don’t become CEOs straight out of college; they have to have a proven track record of previous employment successes. If you stop that track record at the starting line, you eliminate the candidate. Even the biggest tree will eventually die if you keep hacking away at its roots.

I have a friend with two EE degrees, master and bach, who this has affected. He know has a MBA so perhaps he'll be okay for awhile now. You shouldn't have to spend the first half of your life acquiring degrees so you can work.

I've also been working as a contractor for quite a few years at one large company, employed by another company, but the twist is I get extremely good pay, full health benefits and so on, because my employer isn't greedy. He keeps some of the money for himself but I think the lions share is passed on to me.

Effectively we are deleting the first and second level of the job tree in the United States.Not really, just pruning a few of the branches. The job market is always changing, and not just on account of foreign workers. The smart kids will anticipate these changes and use them as an opportunity, whereas the stupid kids are going to plan their careers according to yesterday's world.

You shouldn't have to spend the first half of your life acquiring degrees so you can work.If the income-generating value of the degrees greatly exceeds what you would've earned during those years, why not?

Professional degrees are great career vehicles. For example, the average net present value of an MBA is almost $1 million, and can be many times that if you graduate from a good school and go into a lucrative field.

Our goals shouldn't be gamma/delta jobs; we should import those cheaply, and move on to more important things.because my employer isn't greedy. He keeps some of the money for himself but I think the lions share is passed on to me.You sure you work in America?

He's a liberal democrat with odd notions about letting workers share in the profits. :)

Professional degrees are great career vehicles. For example, the average net present value of an MBA is almost $1 million, and can be many times that if you graduate from a good school and go into a lucrative field.
Problem is, people in India and China are getting those degrees too and they're willing to work a lot cheaper than you are.

Problem is, people in India and China are getting those degrees too and they're willing to work a lot cheaper than you are.

A few are. Most are not getting similar degrees and you still want to be competing against the few rather than against the many, relatively speaking, for work.

Problem is, people in India and China are getting those degrees too and they're willing to work a lot cheaper than you are.Not really, not for the higher level alpha/beta jobs. They're dominated by white men or Americanized foreigners who want it all.

Most "tech jobs" _are_ alpha/beta jobs, if you must use the Brave New World comparison. Many of the jobs being outsourced are not at all menial jobs but jobs that require quite a bit of thought and creativity.

The real problem is the currency exchange rate imbalance. The dollar is too valuable! As a result it is possible to have a much higher standard of living by living in a foreign country, working for U.S. dollars and then exchanging those for local currency (possibly at a later date).

Most "tech jobs" _are_ alpha/beta jobsNo, they're not.

The main difference between the guy at some tech help desk and the guy cleaning office toilets is that the latter is doing a more important and fulfilling job.

Ahh, I see.

You're under the false impression that most of the jobs being outsourced are simply help desk jobs and the like.

Well, when my tech company that I worked for went under in 01, and I was outsourced...I knew MCSEs with BSs in CS who were working help desk to make a check.

Definitely not alpha jobs. But not delta jobs either.

I bet a lot of the A+ certifieds, who were previously qualified help deskers, displaced by these new higher qualified workers, were cleaning toilets for a while.

You're under the false impression that most of the jobs being outsourced are simply help desk jobs and the like.Let's distinguish between outsourcing, and what the opening post describes, immigration of skilled workers. Although neither is inherently bad, they are not the same thing, and don't have the same benefits and drawbacks.

Immigration of skilled workers, to become permanent residents and work in the United States, is a very positive thing, even if they are at first less greedy than their American-bred counterparts.

Temporary immigration (e.g., H-1 visa, guest workers, and so on) of gamma/delta type jobs is also a positive thing.

Outsourcing is less positive, but in many circumstances, still beneficial. I'm unaware of any significant number of alpha/beta jobs being outsourced anyway, unless you can show me otherwise.

Call it 'Insourcing'.

akes sense.

I have been calling it that for years.

Anyways, there is nothing stopping Americans from doing exactly what Philippinos and Indians are doing.

Working their asses off here, then buy up real estate and property there.

The Philippines and, especially, India are VERY English speaking countries.

Buy a hacienda with servants for the rest of your life, for what a crappy condo costs you here.


In Mexico, Gringos can't own real estate.

Outsourcing is less positive, but in many circumstances, still beneficial. I'm unaware of any significant number of alpha/beta jobs being outsourced anyway, unless you can show me otherwise.

Hell, my town is mostly White.

We have a huge percentage of Indian and Phillipino docs, at my hospital.

That is not even including Stockton, or Sacramento.

I would put cardiologists and neurologists into the alpha category.

We have a huge percentage of Indian and Phillipino docs, at my hospital.And here in San Francisco, there a huge number of Asian doctors. So what? Race or ancestry should make no difference so long as they're living just as any other American does.I would put cardiologists and neurologists into the alpha category.I wouldn't. They're still mechanics, just expensive ones. Alpha is for leadership positions. Maybe if they're chief of the hospital, or something.

Let’s do a quick skill tree for a generic technology company:

Level 1: Janitors, bldg maintenance, security, mail room (little to no schooling required)

Level 2: Call routers/Operators, Technical call routers (some training required)

Level 3: Helpdesk tier 1 and 2, Desktop/PDA/End User device installation and troubleshooting, User account creation (usually high school, more training required)

Level 4: Helpdesk tier 3 "final" support, general server builders (hardware/rack mounting/base installs), custom script programmers, Level 2 and 3 team managers, (2yr Associates, more specialized training, some "real world" experience, MCP/A+ certifications)

Level 5: Server application support specialists (e-mail, Peoplesoft, SQL, etc), internal technical writers and content managers (internal webpage developers), "Windows Administrators," some "UNIX Administrators," some hardware specialists - SAN/LAN/NAS/etc, Helpdesk/Call Center Directors (4yr Bachelor, very specialized training, 4+ yrs real world experience, MCSE/MCSA/CISSP/CCNA certs)

Level 6: Infrastructure Architects, large environment administrators (100+ servers), program specialists (Exchange only, SQL only, SendMail only, Peoplesoft only; or mix of two specialized areas), Level 4, 5 and 6 team managers, smaller companies also begin "Director" level positions, high level programmers, (min. 4yr degree, 7+yrs work experience, multiple certs).

Level 7: Program Managers, Director/VP of Technology, small company CIO/CTOs (min. 4yr - generally Masters, 10+ yrs experience including management, specialized "management" certifications).

Like I said, that's a very generic tree, but it covers most of the technology jobs I've seen in a general business not specifically centered around technology; in other words, this is a pretty common IT breakdown for a large-sized company, but if you work for Microsoft, Google, or Apple, there's going to be a significant shift as compared to working for Johnson & Johnson, or McDonalds Corp.

Obviously Level 1 will have the requirement of being local, as it would be rather inconvenient to have your janitors in India. However as most people will probably agree, even many of these level 1 jobs are going to minorities, some legal, some not; but either way, these are some of the few people who will work for minimum wage.

Level 2 and 3 is now commonly getting outsourced to foreign countries. This is why when you call Sprint for support with your phone; you are talking to “David” in Bangalore.

Level 4 is still commonly staffed in America since most of the actual server hardware is still located in the US. Also, the pay scale of level 4 generally does not justify utilizing the H-1B visa program (in other words, the company will not save enough money).

Level 5 and 6 are where you see a lot of H-1B infiltration. Application specialists, programmers, specialized hardware, the “big ticket” items where salaries generally start around $60k/yr and go up to the six-figure salary range (depending highly on your residency of course). This is where companies will begin to see a massive savings per employee – many H-1B counterparts will take this level job at the $25k/yr range and go maybe as high as $50k/yr, but generally averaging out around $32k/yr. For $32k/yr a US company gets a Masters or PhD educated employee with little to no real world experience, but tons of certifications. Upon hiring, they will generally go through an intensive 1-2mo “boot camp” to learn the fundamentals of their job which is usually paid for by the recruiting firm, not the hiring company.

As remote administration becomes more and more common, level 5 and 6 jobs are also being completely outsourced, usually the server farms themselves remain in the US, but are connected to their administrative counterparts by a high bandwidth line. The people remaining on the US side are generally the Data Center Operators (level 4-5) who’s job is to watch blinking lights and to make sure that nothing is red or on fire. That being said, quite a few large companies are testing the waters and seeing what performance impact looks like if they moved their servers overseas as well. Right now the cost of redundant 99.999% uptime, high speed data lines, as well as the poor power grid infrastructure is preventing mass migrations, but since the private companies are pouring money into those underdeveloped countries, they are getting there much faster than a comparative rural county in the US.

So looking at the big picture, Level 1 is generally minorities, Level 2 and 3 are being outsourced completely, and Level 5 and 6 are commonly given to H-1B foreigners. So essentially we’re leaving ourselves with some high level helpdesk jobs, some OS installers, and guys who’ll hand you your PDA and maybe show you how it works. Oh, and the high level management of course. Unfortunately, even if you have 12yrs of experience at a Level 4 job, most companies will not hire you or promote you directly to a Level 7 job. And if you just got out of college with your 4yr Bachelors good luck getting into a Level 4 job, because you got zip for work experience (your time as a waiter at TGIFridays doesn’t count, sorry). If you get lucky, you’ll find a small company that still has its IT staffing still in the US and you might be fortunate enough to break into the field that way, otherwise, you’re kinda stuck.

This was just a generic example of the IT support field just because I am the most familiar with it and because the IT department is pretty common in all industries so you can see a wide slice of the various fields. However, just because I did an IT example, don’t take this to mean that the outsourcing and H-1B issues are specific to IT only. Several friends of mine are admins/directors in different companies in widely diverse markets. Financial, medical, legal, agriculture, retail – all of these markets have a similar breakdown as above, just with different job descriptions; and all of these markets are getting just as outsourced or replaced by cheaper foreign labor. Many doctors will get a Doctorate in a foreign country, get sponsored to be certified in the US by a large hospital or research center, work at that company in the US for a number of years, then return to their home country to teach the next wave. Replace “Doctor” with Researcher, Programmer, Investor and you get the same scenario each time.

It’s easy to find examples anywhere you look, the tougher search is to find an exception.

Thanks for the analysis, Stormhaven. It is rather alarming, IMHO.

It should be alarming.

We're allowing our corporations to simply give away the American work pool further widening the gap between the wealthy elite and the rest of America.

When our Industrial jobs were being lost to foreign nations, we were told "that's the nature of the market, America has to shift from Industry to Service. Its time to retrain into technical areas"...and so Americans did so..only to find that within twenty years, we now are losing our high education tech jobs to foreign nations as well...tell me, if the only jobs staying in the US are upper management jobs, where are the other 90% of Americans supposed to work? Perhaps we should all move to Hyderbad or Bangalore?

I have no doubt that Tudamorf's "alphas" would love that.

It should be alarming.

We're allowing our corporations to simply give away the American work pool further widening the gap between the wealthy elite and the rest of America.


If you look at the underlying tendencies we are looking at much the same mechanism that lead to the feudal system in Europe in the early medieval age. Of course there it was the military power that got concentrated in increasingly few hands and nowadays it is economic power (i.e. money). But the end result is the same: a very tiny group of people controlling almost all the power and a huge majority of people who are effectively owned by those few. They are not technically slaves, but their lives, properties and to a large extent even right to self determination is controlled by the powerful.

Politically speaking this evolving elite already controls politics in several countries, or at least has enough influence that it does not really matter which way the vote goes. Politicians around the world have really bought into the strange notion that the more you disempower the workers relative to their employers the better off they will be.

Tudamorf operates under the delusion that if somebody from India is willing to work twice as long for a third of the salary it means that American workers should do the same, forgetting that Indian people are willing to do so -because- they can not survive on the kinds of salaries paid in their own country. This is the flaw in the system (and the one that may safe us from a very bleak future), that the global economic system needs large numbers of people capable to afford the products those masses of underpaid workers are churning out at the cost of their health and sanity. Sadly, it is entirely possible that an economic system emerges where a relative few servants of the rich upperclass are earning enough, doing their work for them, to keep the system going. Such a system would not be particularly good for, say, 90 pct of the people in the world though.
Tudamorf is correct though that unless stopped, this tendency is going to force Americans to work for just enough salaray to subsist. This in turn will do ugly things to the sustainability of shops, services and the entire economic system, making almost everybody as poor as that Indian village (or worse, that Vietnamese collection of huts).


Eri

tell me, if the only jobs staying in the US are upper management jobs,Those aren't the only jobs staying in the United States. And, like the other posters here, you're still not distinguishing between outsourcing, and importing foreign workers.I have no doubt that Tudamorf's "alphas" would love that.I don't see you complaining about all the cheap goods you buy that are made possible by foreign workers.

Americans don't want to pull weeds in tomato fields, or pick cherries, or clean toilets at Wal*Mart.

I dunno. I am an American. I did those things and still do if I have to. American's starve just as well as non americans. Let me tell you, it was no fun having $40 dollars for a week worth of food. Yea, I know, in some countries that's a ton of cash, but not in America.

While that might be part of the argument, I think its not all of the argument. There are people who will do anything necessary to survive even if its pulling weeds, picking cherries or cleaning toilets at walmart.

I don't really think the point is that American's wouldn't pull weeds, but rather that's all we're gonna end up with.

Not even that, since South Americans have staked that work out. :\

Well, I guess we can sneak into Canada and work there.... bwahahaha!

Those aren't the only jobs staying in the United States. And, like the other posters here, you're still not distinguishing between outsourcing, and importing foreign workers.

That's because there is no difference, if those foreign workers are not staying to beomce US citizens, but are merely imported contract labor. Imported contract labor w/o full on immigration has never...never, benefitted anyone other than the employees

I don't see you complaining about all the cheap goods you buy that are made possible by foreign workers.

We're not talking about the industrial jobs which have been gone for 20 years. Now we're talking about the "next-gen" jobs which were promised the American public, if they'd just modernize and educate themselves and let the 3rd world have the industry.

What are American's supposed to do, oh so brilliant one? Starve? Revert to a standard of living on par with India or China?

It should be alarming.

We're allowing our corporations to simply give away the American work pool further widening the gap between the wealthy elite and the rest of America.

When our Industrial jobs were being lost to foreign nations, we were told "that's the nature of the market, America has to shift from Industry to Service. Its time to retrain into technical areas"...and so Americans did so..only to find that within twenty years, we now are losing our high education tech jobs to foreign nations as well...tell me, if the only jobs staying in the US are upper management jobs, where are the other 90% of Americans supposed to work? Perhaps we should all move to Hyderbad or Bangalore?

Ain't pure bred commercialism just grand?

lassaiz faire capitalism doesn't work in an industrialized or global post-industrial economy. It was just fine for an aggro-mercantile economy, which hasn't existed for over a century.

That's because there is no difference, if those foreign workers are not staying to beomce US citizens, but are merely imported contract labor. Imported contract labor w/o full on immigration has never...never, benefitted anyone other than the employeesOf course there's a difference. First, they're paying back into the U.S. economy -- not only taxes, but rent, food, entertainment, and so on.

Second, cheaper labor allows for cheaper goods, which benefits the consumers and shareholders. As I said, I don't see you complaining about the cheap goods you buy every day, made possible only by cheap foreign labor.What are American's supposed to do, oh so brilliant one? Starve? Revert to a standard of living on par with India or China?Do you see either of that happening, Aidon, on the whole in America? You're incorrectly assuming that job opportunities are set in stone, in number and type.

Actually, Mexican immigrants send a lot (most?) of their money back home to Mexico. Remitances are the 2nd highest source of money in the Mexican economy next to oil production. I don't know if that is true of all foreign nationals working in the US, probably many of them are leaving behind families to support.

Democracy does best with a flourishing middle-class. When you get too many poor and unemployed then you start getting very socialistic trends like in Venezuela and other parts of S. America. So starving out the middle class is a really piss-poor idea.

Of course there's a difference. First, they're paying back into the U.S. economy -- not only taxes, but rent, food, entertainment, and so on.

No, a sizable portion of their income is being sent offshore. Furthermore, because they are being paid a fraction of the income an American could make doing the same the job, they spend a fraction of the money an American makes.

Second, cheaper labor allows for cheaper goods, which benefits the consumers and shareholders. As I said, I don't see you complaining about the cheap goods you buy every day, made possible only by cheap foreign labor.

There is a flaw in this logic. It presupposes that business has any interest in reducing their price simply because they can reduce their cost, rather than simply increasing their profit. Do you think Paine Webber is going to reduce their fees simply because their IT staff is now comprised of imported contract labor? No, they are not. They are simply going to give the CEO and the Board extra bonuses.

Furthermore, we're not talking about textiles from China or Belize anymore...we're talking about companies importing temporary labor to fill college graduate level jobs. We're effectively removing the American dream. Now you can work hard, do well in school in a good field only to find yourself unable to get a job which earns enough to even repay your loans, because Big Business is importing contract labor which they can pay fractionally for three years and then send them home, rather than having to act as responsible business and community partners. We've outsourced the working class jobs...and are now working on outsourcing the educated workforce. Shall we only have jobs in America for doctors, laywers, and upper management?


Do you see either of that happening, Aidon, on the whole in America? You're incorrectly assuming that job opportunities are set in stone, in number and type.

You presume it matters if new job types open for a 40 year old software engineer with three kids and wife who suddenly has been replaced by some guy from India willing to work for 1/5th his income because his family is in India, where it costs 10 bucks a day to feed and clothe his family, and will go back to India wealthy with American dollars to spend there, after his three year contract is up.

I was wrong...you're not a liberal at all. You're a ****ing republican.

No, a sizable portion of their income is being sent offshore.Well first off, a sizable portion is being sent to the U.S. treasury.

Second, they will want at least the basics they had back home, like a place to sleep and food. This is more money put into the system.

So there is a big difference between jobs that are outsourced to India, and workers temporarily imported here.Furthermore, because they are being paid a fraction of the income an American could make doing the same the job, they spend a fraction of the money an American makes.And that fraction goes back to the company and its shareholders, which increases American wealth.There is a flaw in this logic. It presupposes that business has any interest in reducing their price simply because they can reduce their cost, rather than simply increasing their profit.Absent antitrust violations, market forces work against this.We're effectively removing the American dream. Now you can work hard, do well in school in a good field only to find yourself unable to get a jobWell, if you're stupid enough to educate yourself for yesterday's careers, perhaps.

Second, they will want at least the basics they had back home, like a place to sleep and food. This is more money put into the system.

And yet they wont spend nearly as much as US citizens, because they will share rooms, 3-4 to a room. They work and sleep, 3 years and get to send the majority of what they make back home.

So there is a big difference between jobs that are outsourced to India, and workers temporarily imported here.And that fraction goes back to the company and its shareholders, which increases American wealth.Absent antitrust violations, market forces work against this.Well, if you're stupid enough to educate yourself for yesterday's careers, perhaps.

The US will never get rid of the middle class, which is the very jobs that are becomming less and less accessable. Whats with your mentality that everyone in the US have what it takes to get those alpha jobs? Kinda presumptuous isnt it?

Just remember the words "Wipro" and "Infosys," as many technology jobs will probably start going to their candidates.

Well first off, a sizable portion is being sent to the U.S. treasury.

Second, they will want at least the basics they had back home, like a place to sleep and food. This is more money put into the system.
The thing about employing Americans is that pretty much all their money stays here. Not some portion of it, pretty much all of it.

If American employers want Americans to buy their products then they'd better frickin' hire Americans.

And that fraction goes back to the company and its shareholders, which increases American wealth.
Only if they happen to be stock holders. Which if they're not employed, they're not likely to have stock now are they? Jeez, your plan sounds great for people who are already wealthy (until the revolution when they're all put against the wall and shot and their stuff is seized).

The thing about employing Americans is that pretty much all their money stays here.I thought it went to China.

Ok, so what is the solution?

Even if America prohibits this stuff.

What prevents British, or German, or French, or Japanese Tech firms from hiring up these Indian laborers?

All of those tech firms are going to have a competitive advantage over American Tech firms. If their workforce, their labor is cheaper to them. It will kill the American Tech industry.

Sure, as Aidon expressed, that all these new retrained American workers had some 'promise' from some ethereal Promise Makers. Who promised them that?

I am also sure that there are these same types of Promise Makers in India, promising 'their' workers promises, right now.


How do you deal with a country and economy, which has an enormous population, and can educate their populace for far cheaper than we do? And out produce us in highly educated(alpha and beta) workers.

BTW, CEOs of hospitals are not alphas. Hardly.

How do we Americans plan on competing with them?

And when it is not the Indians, You can sure bet the Chinese will be following their model, sooner or later.

How do we Americans plan on competing against them?

Do we have a plan, better than just cutting them off from immigration to the US to work? As we all know, they can work from anywhere. And for any company, in any country.

How do we deal with that?

How do we Americans plan on competing against them?By absorbing them (for the important jobs) and not trying to compete with them at all (for the unimportant jobs).

When unimportant job becomes anything less than an executive level, what's your plan then?


What prevents British, or German, or French, or Japanese Tech firms from hiring up these Indian laborers?
They probably have a lot more regulations about these things.

Do we have a plan, better than just cutting them off from immigration to the US to work?
Well, we should be regulating this more closely. As far as I know there is no enforcement of the current laws and there may be large loopholes (like the article I posted points out) that need to be closed. But companies keep asking for more and more H1B visas every year and Congress keeps bending over to the corporations.

For the long term, a significantly weaker dollar would help a lot, I think. Yes, it would make imported goods more expensive, but it should also help make domestic manufacturing competitive again, and once that happens it shouldn't matter so much that some of us won't be able to afford imported goods, because the domestic equivalent will be cheaper.

We should be more self-sufficient anyway.

I agree that we should be absorbing people that can fill "important" jobs--through immigration rather than temporary visas. We may disagree on what the "important" jobs are, though.

For the long term, a significantly weaker dollar would help a lot, I think. Yes, it would make imported goods more expensive, but it should also help make domestic manufacturing competitive again, and once that happens it shouldn't matter so much that some of us won't be able to afford imported goods, because the domestic equivalent will be cheaper.

That is effectively devalueing the entire US and making US citizens and companies poorer on a global scale. Deliberately lowering the standard of living to ensure citizens maintain their standard of living certainly seems an unlikely policy, however if it stops the economy crashing then there may be some sense in it.

If we become self-sufficient then our standard of living shouldn't change much based on the value of the dollar relative to other currencies.

We have most of the natural resources that we need, I think. We can trade for the ones that we don't have (the value of a natural resource should be largely independent of currency value, right?). We should be able to do most of our own manufacturing.

It's not something that would happen overnight, of course. I'm talking over the span of decades.

That is effectively devalueing the entire US and making US citizens and companies poorer on a global scale. Deliberately lowering the standard of living to ensure citizens maintain their standard of living certainly seems an unlikely policy, however if it stops the economy crashing then there may be some sense in it.
This didn't make a lick of sense to me.

We should be more self-sufficient anyway.Why? And at what cost?

Well first off, a sizable portion is being sent to the U.S. treasury.

Second, they will want at least the basics they had back home, like a place to sleep and food. This is more money put into the system.

So there is a big difference between jobs that are outsourced to India, and workers temporarily imported here.

That difference pales in comparison to the effect had on American workers, which is pretty much the same, since the American worker isn't seeing dime one of the contract laborer's supposed monetary influx, which is also a fraction of what that American worker's would be, as he'd be paying for a house, a few cars, schooling for his children, a retirement fund, health insurance, etc. etc. etc. All those things which comprise living in America which a 3 year contract worker can do without for that short period of time.

And that fraction goes back to the company and its shareholders, which increases American wealth.

No, it doesn't increase American wealth. It increases a rapidly lessening elite percentage of American's wealth.

Absent antitrust violations, market forces work against this.

No, do you know what market forces work towards? Its not to benefit the consumer. Market Forces in the US are simply working to drive the disparity of wealth in this nation greater and greater...and its activities like this which we are discussing which propogate that growing divide. Increasingly Middle America is finding itself with less and less real money compared to the cost of living, while the top 1% of the nation controls more and more of the nation's wealth. Programs like this create an economic oligarchy. We can take steps to rectify these actions now, or we can wait until Comrade Lenin is standing in a balcony extolling revolution.

Well, if you're stupid enough to educate yourself for yesterday's careers, perhaps.

No, Tudamorf, you're a right bastard...and a stupid one at that.

These aren't yesterday's careers. America cannot survive if its entire economy must shift focus within a generation of the last major shift.

We just entered the era of IT. Its been less than a generation and really, less than 20 years since we started a widespread shift from industry to technology in the US. It is an impossiblility for Americans to again shift to some, as to yet undefined, new focus. Its called instability, which is bad.

We were an industrial nation for near two centuries before our economy finally had to shift from Industry to Technology. Its been less than 20 years now. That's not enough time to determine wtf "yesterday's careers" were.

Ok, so what is the solution?

Even if America prohibits this stuff.

What prevents British, or German, or French, or Japanese Tech firms from hiring up these Indian laborers?

All of those tech firms are going to have a competitive advantage over American Tech firms. If their workforce, their labor is cheaper to them. It will kill the American Tech industry.

Sure, as Aidon expressed, that all these new retrained American workers had some 'promise' from some ethereal Promise Makers. Who promised them that?

I am also sure that there are these same types of Promise Makers in India, promising 'their' workers promises, right now.


How do you deal with a country and economy, which has an enormous population, and can educate their populace for far cheaper than we do? And out produce us in highly educated(alpha and beta) workers.

BTW, CEOs of hospitals are not alphas. Hardly.

How do we Americans plan on competing with them?

And when it is not the Indians, You can sure bet the Chinese will be following their model, sooner or later.

How do we Americans plan on competing against them?

Do we have a plan, better than just cutting them off from immigration to the US to work? As we all know, they can work from anywhere. And for any company, in any country.

How do we deal with that?

First step is to actually not cut them off from immigration. If these contract laborers were immigrating, instead, they would very rapidly demand pay and benefits on scale with their native born American compatriots. Its when we allow businesses to import temporary labor at far deflated wages.

Secondly, we need to take steps to protect businesses which employ Americans from losing out to businesses which do not, at least until such time as the standards of living between India China and the West equalize.

We do not have these issues with Western European countries or even Canada, because the standards of living are comparable that there is no great call. China, especially, will find itself in greater economic woes once they are forced to unpeg the Yuan. The artificially deflated value of their currency is a major protectionist and predatory trade practice which is harming the US. That needs to be a major focus of US-Chinese policy.

Thirdly, we need to provide low or no cost education to US citizens, while also limiting educational opportunities to competetive foreigners without a long term commitment to work in the US. It helps us, very little, to offer the world's finest education to foreign nationals from China or India if they are merely going to take their education and return home with it immediately.

That difference pales in comparison to the effect had on American workers, which is pretty much the same,An imported worker, who pays taxes and living expenses, and works for a U.S. company, which also pays taxes, is far more important to the U.S. economy than a foreign worker working in a foreign country for a foreign company and selling us the end product.

If you push out the former, you'll simply get more of the latter.No, it doesn't increase American wealth. It increases a rapidly lessening elite percentage of American's wealth.Nothing is preventing the middle class from investing in these companies. They can, and do.We just entered the era of IT. Its been less than a generation and really, less than 20 years since we started a widespread shift from industry to technology in the US. It is an impossiblility for Americans to again shift to some, as to yet undefined, new focus. Its called instability, which is bad.Technology is constantly shifting. Skills you might have learned 10 years ago would be virtually useless today. If you want to go into a volatile field, do your homework ahead of time.

Actually the first step would be to make sure that the H1-B certifications are being given to people who would qualify for an American level Bachelors degree by making sure that the schools in India are certified by the collegiate boards here in the US - many are, but there are also quite a few that are "Degree farms" out there. Second would be to seriously lock down on the "no available worker" clause which is the loop hole that many H-1B's are getting through on.

There are quite a few "American Pride" type companies which have almost 100% of their workforce in the US, and there are many states with an overabundance of jobs, unfortunately many are in the mid-west and people are very hesitant to move. That is one dynamic I think American's are going to have to get over; the coasts are extremely overpopulated which causes land prices to soar and therefore cost of living to increase sharply. Increase cost of living, increase relative pay, increase company cost. The old Billy Joel song goes, "There's no island left for Islanders like me," and that's very true because Long Island is so crowded and land prices are insane, a normal "worker bee" cannot even fathom owning a home in the area they grew up in. Granted, Manhattan and Long Island's overcrowding is a bonus for Conn, Jersey, and Penn - they're getting all the offshoot companies that are moving to cheaper land. Same thing can be said for California - I've got friends in the Santa Cruz area that look at their parent's home which was purchased at $75k and is now worth over a $mil easy. Unfortunately, every other home is also over a million so hope you love apartment life.

There also needs to be more tax incentives for companies which do have a majority of their employees within the US borders, as well as programs set up between private companies and the state or local governments which help pay for a student to go through a privately funded education assistance program in return for a 4yr (or whatever) work commitment.

I personally also think the whole college system needs to be revamped, but that's probably another conversation.

A brilliant college professor named Victor Davis Hanson talked about his latest book, "Mexifornia," explaining how immigration—both legal and illegal—was destroying the entire state of California . He said it would march across the country until it destroyed all vestiges of The American Dream.

oments later, former Colorado Governor Richard D. Lamm stood up and gave a stunning speech on how to destroy America. The audience sat spellbound as he described eight methods for the destruction of the United States.

He said, "If you believe that America is too smug, too self-satisfied, too rich, then let's destroy America. It is not that hard to do. No nation in history has survived the ravages of time. Arnold Toynbee observed that all great civilizations rise and fall and that 'An autopsy of history would show that all great nations commit suicide.'"

"Here is how they do it," Lamm said:

"Turn America into a bilingual or multi-lingual and bi-cultural country. History shows that no nation can survive the tension, conflict, and antagonism of two or more competing languages and cultures. It is a blessing for an individual to be bilingual; however, it is a curse for a society to be bilingual.

"The historical scholar Seymour Lipset put it this way: 'The histories of bilingual and bi-cultural societies that do not assimilate are histories of turmoil, tension, and tragedy.' Canada, Belgium, Malyasia, Lebanon all face crises of national existence in which minorities press for autonomy, if not independence. Pakistan and Cyprus have divided. Nigeria suppressed an ethnic rebellion. France faces difficulties with Basques, Bretons, and Corsicans."

Lamm went on:

"Invent 'multi-culturalism' and encourage immigrants to maintain their culture. I would make it an article of belief that all cultures are equal. That there are no cultural differences. I would make it an article of faith that the Black and Hispanic dropout rates are due to prejudice and discrimination by the majority. Every other explanation is out of bounds.

"We could make the United States an 'Hispanic Quebec' without much effort. The key is to celebrate diversity rather than unity. As Benjamin Schwarz said in the Atlantic Monthly recently: 'The apparent success of our own multi-ethnic and multi-cultural experiment might have been achieved not by tolerance but by hegemony. Without the dominance that once dictated, however ethnocentrically, what it meant to be an American, we are left with only tolerance and pluralism to hold us together.'" Lamm said, "I would encourage all immigrants to keep their own language and culture. I would replace the melting pot metaphor with the salad bowl metaphor. It is important to ensure that we have various cultural sub-groups living in America reinforcing their differences rather than as Americans, emphasizing their similarities."

"Fourth, I would make our fastest growing demographic group the least educated. I would add a second underclass, unassimilated, undereducated, and antagonistic to our population. I would have this second underclass have a 50% dropout rate from high school."

"My fifth point for destroying America would be to get big foundations and business to give these efforts lots of money. I would invest in ethnic identity, and I would establish the cult of 'Victimology.' I would get all minorities to think their lack of success was the fault of the majority. I would start a grievance industry blaming all minority failure on the majority population."

"My sixth plan for America's downfall would include dual citizenship and promote divided loyalties. I would celebrate diversity over unity. I would stress differences rather than similarities. Diverse people worldwide are mostly engaged in hating each other—that is, when they are not killing each other."

"A diverse, peaceful, or stable society is against most historical precedent. People undervalue the unity it takes to keep a nation together. Look at the ancient Greeks. The Greeks believed that they belonged to the same race; they possessed a common language and literature; and they worshipped the same gods. All Greece took part in the Olympic games. A common enemy Persia threatened their liberty. Yet all these bonds were not strong enough to over come two factors: local patriotism and geographical conditions that nurtured political divisions. Greece fell. " E. Pluribus Unum " From many, one. In that historical reality, if we put the emphasis on the 'pluribus' instead of the 'unum,' we can balkanize America as surely as Kosovo ."

"Next to last, I would place all subjects off limits ~ make it taboo to talk about anything against the cult of 'diversity.' I would find a word similar to 'heretic' in the 16th century—that stopped discussion and paralyzed thinking. Words like 'racist' or 'xenophobe' halt discussion and debate."

"Having made America a bilingual/bicultural country, having established multi-culturism, having the large foundations fund the doctrine of 'Victimology ,' I would next make it impossible to enforce our immigration laws. I would develop a mantra: That because immigration has been good for America, it must always be good. I would make every individual immigrant sympatric and ignore the cumulative impact of millions of them."

In the last minute of his speech, Governor Lamm wiped his brow. The profound silence followed. Finally he said, "Lastly, I would censor Victor Hanson Davis's book Mexifornia . His book is dangerous. It exposes the plan to destroy America. If you feel America deserves to be destroyed, don't read that book."


Forrest Gump: That's all I have to say about that

This didn't make a lick of sense to me.

Which pretty much is how much economic sense it makes to outsource more and more jobs to third world countries.

Basically living standards of the USA (and Europe is reluctantly following) are being lowered towards those of e.g. Vietnam. This is defended with the argument that this is the only way companies can offer goods cheaply enough while still making a profit. Of course nobody wants to question too deeply the fact that those virtual slaves in eastern Asia are too poor to be able to afford the things they make and that if everybody is lowered to their standard of living there really is very little point in making the things in the first place.


Eri

Throughout history, there has always been upkeep of slaves and servants.

With no tangible return for the upkeep, other than what they produced. That is to say, they never saved up enough money to buy what they produced.

It is not a matter of people voluntarily lowering their standard of living. It is a matter of being forced to, in order to compete.


Panamah once said something to me that kinda stuck, a couple years ago at least.

What if complete immigration restrictions were immediately released for any Philipino nurse who wants to come and take a job over here. Now, I just mentally add Chinese, and Indian to that, to what she said. Because nursing is what Philipinos do, in order to immigrate here, it is there ticket, they have been doing it for 25 years(even though I never knew it). Indians and Chinese, behind them, are following suit.

Ya, Pan. I do favor immigration restrictions on foreign nurses.

You got me, either on Socialism or Selfishness, or both. But you got me, you had me back then, you get my admission here, years later.

y previous job was already outsourced. I don't need this new one insourced.

I say restrict them, as long as we are able to. Mea culpa, my bad, smack my fingers with a ruler. /shrug.

And I say the same with tech jobs, as long as we can tolerate it. Restrict it. Restrict it, until it falls apart again.

Now of course, the topic at hand(back then) was Mexican immigration, coming up here to pick cherries, pick weeds, cut grape vines, or clean toilets, or nail sheetrock.

I don't know very many Americans who would want to do those jobs.

Eventually Americans might evolve to not want to do nursing jobs, or tech jobs(delta job already, according to Tuda). I want to put that time off into the future. Push hard back against it. Until it starts to crack, but just does not break. Then it will be time to move on to the next career, I suppose.

The EU approach seems to have a different twist. We've got competition from the far east and a cheap labour market in eastern europe. However we seem to have embraced this rather than rejected it. We're driving to increase the standard of living, trade, and wages across the EU rather than just maintain localised wealth. We already know that the UK, Germany, and France have been boosted by growing the ecomines in Spain, Ireland, etc. so we hope to do the same for Poland and the rest.

I haven't seen anyone suggesting here that enriching the american continent in general will decrease emigration, increase markets, and bring economic stability. It seems to me however that you can't internally solve a problem that starts with low wages and poverty in neighbouring countries.

I personally also think the whole college system needs to be revamped, but that's probably another conversation.

There is something I agree with.

I used to work in Redwood City, now I guess its refered to as Redwood Shores. At anyrate, it was all San Francisco to me from the actual San Francisco all the way to San Jose, even Milpitas. One gigantic city with several names.

The prices were insane. When I moved out here to the missile range, I originally started at a lower salary but the cost of living was literally half of what it was when I was living in Belmont (5 mins away from Redwood - you could just tumble downhill and be there).

I now make more (probably more than I would ever have been paid at my California job) and the cost of living is still about what it was when I first arrived. It was a very good deal for me. (I also got security clearance out of it which has value of its own).

That being said, there are problems here. New Mexico is apparently fairly harsh on businesses. They are taxed out the wazoo and needled to death by beuracracy. There is also limited water. Sure we have the Rio Grande (and associated resevoirs) and the mountain springs, but its not like we have an ocean at our doorstep (except during the rainy season, then you get it all at once - reference El Paso's floods last year).

Aside from that, there is no reason a software or any technology company couldn't set up shop here and find good workers (we have Southern New Mexico University, which has a good engineering ciricula). The test range being nearby attracts some high tech industries as well. We don't have rolling blackouts during the summer, either :)

Different story.

Same topic.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/03/AR2007070300978.html

Different story.

Same topic.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/03/AR2007070300978.html

I saw this on the news last night. It brings up an extremely tricky question. As anyone in healthcare knows... and many patient's know as well, there is a huge amount of foreign born doctors around. At IU Med school nearly half of all the graduating class this June were foreign born.

So how do we keep the ones out that have ideals of terrorism? How are we supposed to know that this particular guy, with no record of terrorist links, is wanting to come to the US for a terror plot?

Unless they let something slip, there isn't a way until we have a mind reading device.

Next up in the outsourcing ring: Kenya!
http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_22-6200147.html?part=rss&tag=feed&subj=zdnn

Americans don't want to pull weeds in tomato fields, or pick cherries, or clean toilets at Wal*Mart.
This statement has always been and always will be bull****, unless you finish the sentence.

The second part of the sentence, the part that turns it from bull**** into a golden nugget of truth, is: "... for the wages currently offered".

Its a lie thats repeated often by the media elite who have never picked cherries themselves. I have. Its good work. But the reason people work any job is to pay their bills, and if a job doesnt pay enough to pay those bills, they wont do it. Its nothing against picking cherries.

But the reason people work any job is to pay their bills, and if a job doesnt pay enough to pay those bills, they wont do it.The Mexicans don't seem to have a problem paying their bills with their income, and they even have money left over to send home every month.

And no, even if you raise wages, Americans won't want to do those jobs, because they think they're too good for them.

Next up in the outsourcing ring: Kenya!
http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_22-6200147.html?part=rss&tag=feed&subj=zdnnI guess they're no longer satisfied with simply winning all our marathons.

Tudamorf, have you ever visited LA? Illegals can technically survive, yes. But nobody should have to live like that, certainly not in a civilized first world country.

Of course you're right in a way -- its all about expectations and standards of living. But you're wrong on the larger point -- Americans will do whatever pays well. Its only you urbanite elites that think you're too good for honest outdoor work; real Americans like it. It just doesnt pay enough atm.

Illegals can technically survive, yes. But nobody should have to live like that, certainly not in a civilized first world country.I've met many of them. They don't live a life of luxury, but they have a place to live, food, medical care for their kids, a car, TV, and so on. Hardly inappropriate for a first world country.But you're wrong on the larger point -- Americans will do whatever pays well. Its only you urbanite elites that think you're too good for honest outdoor work; real Americans like it. It just doesnt pay enough atm.No, they won't. E.g.:

http://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_1529.cfm<b>Immigration crackdown exacerbates organic-farm labor shortage</b>

<b> Organic farmers hit by worker shortage </b>

WATSONVILLE, Calif. -- For every fragrant bunch of parsley that foreman Eber Diaz picked, he stopped to rip out handfuls of thick-stemmed weeds crowding the crop.

Normally, these fields would be weed-free and workers would move easily up and down the rows, harvesting organic vegetables and herbs meant for dinner tables around the country. But increased patrolling along the border with Mexico, and easier, higher-paying jobs in the city have made farmworkers scarce.

Farms across the country are feeling the pinch, but organic farms like Lakeside Organic Gardens in the lush Pajaro Valley that grow labor-intensive, hand-picked crops are especially suffering. Fields go untended, and acres have to be torn up because there's no one to harvest them.

"It's heartbreaking," farmer Dick Peixoto said.

The situation is so bad Peixoto has been forced to tear out nearly 30 acres of vegetables, and has about 100 acres compromised by weeds. He estimated his loss so far to be about $200,000 - worse than anything he's seen in his 31 years of farming.

With stiff competition for workers, organic growers face the extra challenge of trying to lure workers to do particularly backbreaking tasks. Members of Diaz's crew were bending at the waist to pull weeds by hand, a task that needs to be done several times during the growing season. And harvesting is done the same way.

"No one wants to do this work," Diaz said. "I've never seen a situation where it was so difficult to find people."

The labor shortage is a serious problem, and it's getting worse as the government adds more law enforcement to the border without creating avenues for workers to come in legally, said Tim Chelling, spokesman for Western Growers, which represents about 3,000 fruit and vegetable farmers.I suppose if they paid some ridiculous wage like $50/hour for it, some of those welfare leeches may get off their asses and do some honest work, but then the farmers would go out of business.

Tudamorf, have you ever visited LA? Illegals can technically survive, yes. But nobody should have to live like that, certainly not in a civilized first world country.

Of course you're right in a way -- its all about expectations and standards of living. But you're wrong on the larger point -- Americans will do whatever pays well. Its only you urbanite elites that think you're too good for honest outdoor work; real Americans like it. It just doesnt pay enough atm.

Evidently mexicans are out competing "Real Americans"

The Mexicans don't seem to have a problem paying their bills with their income, and they even have money left over to send home every month.

And no, even if you raise wages, Americans won't want to do those jobs, because they think they're too good for them.

Really?

I guess I wasn't an American until 1999.

easier, higher-paying jobs in the city have made farmworkers scarce.

Well - duh? What do you expect? People to do harder work for less money?

This statement has always been and always will be bull****, unless you finish the sentence.

The second part of the sentence, the part that turns it from bull**** into a golden nugget of truth, is: "... for the wages currently offered".

Its a lie thats repeated often by the media elite who have never picked cherries themselves. I have. Its good work. But the reason people work any job is to pay their bills, and if a job doesnt pay enough to pay those bills, they wont do it. Its nothing against picking cherries.

Absolutely!

Illegals can technically survive, yes. But nobody should have to live like that, certainly not in a civilized first world country.
Why not?

Or even a better answer.
It's better than what they got at home.

What do you mean "technically"? So what if they don't drive Hummers with 4 DVD screens in the back and 14 cupholders? And live in some McMansion.

Americans don't neEED any of that stuff. It is all just middle class mickey mouse materialistic bullsh!t anyways.

There's a big difference between living 5 or more people in a one-bedroom slum apartment and "So what if they don't drive Hummers with 4 DVD screens in the back and 14 cupholders? And live in some McMansion."

There's a big difference between living 5 or more people in a one-bedroom slum apartment and "So what if they don't drive Hummers with 4 DVD screens in the back and 14 cupholders? And live in some McMansion."

You want me to drive to the other side of town and take some pics to show you where the farmworkers live in my town?

They will be from the same neighborhood my grandmother and grandfather lived in. Where my friends live, even.

They are not slums. By any means.

I will post the pics if you like.

There's a big difference between living 5 or more people in a one-bedroom slum apartmentThey don't live that way at all, not once they're established here. They usually live in apartments with family, and some of them can even afford to buy houses.

That's not bad at all when you consider many of them came from rural villages in Mexico where they lived in shacks with no electricity or running water.

You want me to drive to the other side of town and take some pics to show you where the farmworkers live in my town?

They will be from the same neighborhood my grandmother and grandfather lived in. Where my friends live, even.

They are not slums. By any means.

y sister-in-law helps mexican farm workers in Oregon. Their accomodation is poor. They rely on charity for help with clothes and food. Charities provide volunteer doctors and dentists as they can't afford any health care. They are reliant on volunteer translators if they need to get any basic services. These workers are in the country working legally, as far as I know, yet seem to be in genuine poverty.

Perhaps other workers all in other areas do better. I doubt it though.

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if typical living conditions for farm workers varied significantly by location. It would explain why people here seem to disagree on how well farm workers live.

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if typical living conditions for farm workers varied significantly by location. It would explain why people here seem to disagree on how well farm workers live.

NO

Its one way or the other!

An estimated 2,300-plus homeless farmworkers, nursery workers, landscapers, day laborers and others – nearly one-fourth of the county's homeless population – live in the county year-round, according to San Diego's Regional Task Force on the Homeless. Many are undocumented, though not all.

It has been almost a dozen years since the city moved roughly 750 people, including families, out of a massive shantytown at the bottom of the canyon where Munoz camps. Many were relocated to affordable housing, and the issue of rural homelessness in the San Diego region quietly faded.

So we are once again financing cheap labor for posh vegetable farms that sell to the wealthy. They raise organic french straberries, baby vegetables, etc. My friend who lives in a gated community in Del Mar buys their stuff, I can't afford it.

We had Mexicans who were working at a local farm living in makeshift shelters from wood, cardboard, trash bags, in a canyon and drinking out of a stream. So don't go comparing their lives to driving around in Hummers and living in suburbia. We also routinely get them packed into rental units or homes at incredibly dense rates, like 10-20 people to a typical house (or more). Search on the term "clown house". Here's an article about on community: http://www.immigrationwatchdog.com/?p=389

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060604/news_mz1n4outdoor.html