View Full Forums : Raid pulls - (less than) Useless Monks

07-02-2007, 09:56 AM
Aside from the cleric who thinks they need a spam message for every single channel they join, to let everyone know exactly every single spell they cast, there's one class that I'm more annoyed with: monks.

There's two kinds of raid trash: mobs you plow and mobs you fear.

In zones like Frostcrypt where mobs are still extreme beatdown, there is a genuine need to keep the raid waiting at zone in while the pull team assures that only small number of mobs reach the raid at any one time. Here I respect the security the monks provide for the rest of us raiders. These are the mobs you fear.

In the rest of the zones, there is absolutely ZERO need for one of the best DPS classes to completely take themselves out of the mob killing force for the sake of moving mobs around. These are the mobs you plow.

Plowing does not mean "to pull large numbers of mobs to the raid." It means that when one mob dies, the entire raid rushes forward to the location of the next mob.. OR a couple tanks leapfrog each other, taking turns leading the bulk of the raid force to rush forward, ambushing the next mob in line.

What completely boggles and annoys me, is when we're plowing through an area and I see our monks spending their time needlessly moving mobs from their spawn point to where the tanks are. Yes, normally it's called pulling and worthwhile (when you FEAR the mobs and adds), but it's a MINORITY of the time that it is useful. And when the raid force is inevitably going THAT SAME DIRECTION, it's just a matter of moments before the raid is upon their spawn point. So, all you've accomplished by pulling plow mobs is draining your raid of all the DPS you could of contributed and wasted their time by making them wait.

Secondly, how insecure are these monks? One of my biggest gripes is the stupidly large amount of space they feel the raid needs before pulls get too spread out. A prime example is in Stitch's instance where our first movement was from zone in to where Snapper spawns (the all-drake room/ledge). Another example is Frostcrypt 2, we would wait at zone in while they pull everything all the way to the beginning of the maze. I just shook my head in disgust when I saw Ice Golems being pulled to the zone in.

This is just overboard stupid. Not only is it a total waste of time for the raid to wait in between pulls for the monks, because they're pulling from a million miles away, but how fun is it to only see a raid zone after it's completely void of all mobs? They remove themselves from being productive raiders, and instead use the raid to maintain their illusion of pullers being absolutely essential at all times.

If this method was all I had ever known, sure.. it would seem normal or possibly even great, but I've tasted what it's like to truly PLOW down a zone.

Who makes the best pullers? Answer: tanks.

Monks/Bards/SK's make the best SPLITTERS when splitting is necessary, but in all other times there is absolutely zero substitute for the gung-ho warrior racing from spawn point to spawn point. Zero time lost waiting for pulls. Zero DPS lost from absent monks performing futile pulling charades. Zero time spent waiting for the entire raid to start moving and reassemble miles away. Zero chance the mob is going to bum rush a caster because the tank didn't have agro when the monk FD'd. Zero time spent waiting for a tank to build agro; he was already the first person on the scene attacking it. Zero tolerance for any chronic AFK'ers as they will be left far behind unless they've got a partner in crime to autofollow. And finally, folks get to see the zone the way it was meant to be seen: populated with mobs.

The only PULLING that should even be going on is the 2 seconds between the time when a tank is in range to bellow/arrow/stun; and the time when tank and mob collide midway. Anything else is an annoying waste. Keep in mind, this is NOT for mobs you fear. A good example would be Dreadspire or Anguish after you've beaten the end-boss a couple times.

Pulling for a raid, when necessary, is not a hardship or a burden like they make it out to be, even when it means chain rezzes and lost exp. Any opportunity you get to make a contribution that no one else has the ability to, is a moment worth cherishing. However, there is a time to be the puller and a time to just DPS... I just wish they realized how much more often the latter is the case.

07-02-2007, 10:41 AM
Disagree, best puller = bards. They can have mobs waiting in the wings while also contributing with relatively zero downtime.

07-02-2007, 11:02 AM
I would agree for splitting mobs, bards are my favorite. They don't force the raid to wait miles away and keep us constantly moving in. But if the content is plowable, then there's no need to have mobs waiting in the wings. As soon as the one in camp is dead, move camp to the next mob.. not vice versa. I swear it's not only oftentimes faster, but more entertaining and involving for everyone.

07-02-2007, 04:19 PM
My view is: If your guild is capable of handling several mobs at once - don't split and give the enchanters something to do. This goes for anything in Ikkinz, Intuk'ta, Txevu, MPG, Anguish, all the way up. If you can handle multiple mobs, it's stupid not to.

When my guild does MPG, as an example, we charge clear from trial to trial. Move up, kill, when that's done keep moving in the direction of the next trial killing whatever is between you and the projection.

On the flip side, if trash is like Tacvi where it is capable of one rounding tanks then I agree spliting is a valid and likely nessercary evil.

I *hate* when people take 10+ minutes spliting something that doesn't need to be split. It's a senseless waste of time.


07-03-2007, 02:14 AM
Zi-thull spawned a huge chunk of this anger. Once he became non-threatening, I assumed our tactics would change to accelerate the Demiplane clearing, but I was wrong.

We had been pulling trash to the zone-in room continually until all 4 Zi-Thull spawns had been killed, then continue to clear towards Redfang. This is a longer, safer, and more boring method that should of died once the event was very trivial.

There was one occasion where my dreams came true. Our usual puller was absent that day. We started clearing in and kept moving each opportunity we had. Zi-Thull first spawned in the first room after zone in, the skelly filled area. The second Zi-Thull spawned as we were clearing for redfang. The third spawned as we were clearing for sisters. And the last Zi-Thull spawned right outside the door to hatchets room. That was one of the most superb and fastest clearings I've ever been a part of in Demiplane.

My gripe about our usual method was that we cleared enough mobs at zone in to have gotten us a LONG ways into the castle. And only after Zi-thulls' 4th spawn would we start moving in, which meant more than likely killing respawns again and again. The G-flux was the main reason folks liked the comfort of fighting him in the zone-in, but my preferred method was to just drag him backwards into the nearest roofed area with a corner, where ever he spawns.

07-03-2007, 07:26 AM
We don't have monks ;)

07-10-2007, 03:23 PM
Sounds like your problem isn't monks but, your guilds interest in doing things the safe way. Have you tried discussing it with them ?

As far as how your monks pull - from my own experience, it probably stems from them knowing the strengths and more importantly the weaknesses of your raid force. They may know that if everyone playing 100%, they could probably be a little less careful but, adding a few minutes to the raid may save several unneeded deaths or wipes.

The amount of space I keep for my group or raid is how safe I want to keep them. I know the tendency for some hero that likes to creep and be in front - so I compensate for that. Or that if we get jumped by an extra or three if we'll be able to handle it or people will end up dead before things are in control.

As far as monks adding DPS and saving time - you must have a seriously distorted view on how much time we can save on each mobs death - a few seconds per mob - that what about 5-10 minutes in an entire DPoB clear ?

Who makes the best pullers ? It's someone that's done it and is aware of their surroundings. DPoB needs almost no splitting, even you could pull it. But, pullers are aware of what is going on around them, like when people are AFK, raid leaders wanting a pause, people are dead and getting rezzed, if people are low mana/endurance and ZT popping middle of that would be problematic.

As for gung-ho warrior pulling, you have more than a zero chance of mobs bum rushing someone else. Seen it countless times when one rushes ahead, agros 2-3 mobs, locks agro one one and then the other mobs rush the healer that just healed them because they were getting their ass raped or the debuffer/slower trying to help.

Plowing through also increases chances of a caster getting bum-rushed because all the pathers haven't been cleared by virtue of the fact you are plowing through and the area hasn't been pre-cleared. Most pullers know where all the pathers are and whether the area is going to be safe to fight in.

Plowing through while it may be fun and less boring for most of the raid, needs to be something everyone is ready for. If you think that's the point your guild is at for certain content, then you should bring it up to them. Am sure your main puller will be infinitely happy to accommodate, if things go bad, he's got FD.