Spoiler below, don't read if you haven't seen the movie...


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The Architect - Hello, Neo.

Neo - Who are you?

The Architect - I am the Architect. I created the matrix. I've been waiting for you. You have many questions, and although the process has altered
your consciousness, you remain irrevocably human. Ergo, some of my answers you will understand, and some of them you will not. Concordantly, while
your first question may be the most pertinent, you may or may not realize it is also irrelevant.

Neo - Why am I here?

The Architect - Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the matrix. You are the eventuality
of an anomaly, which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. While it remains a burden to sedulously avoid it, it is not unexpected, and thus not beyond a measure of control. Which has led you, inexorably, here.

Neo - You haven't answered my question.

The Architect - Quite right. Interesting. That was quicker than the others.

*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: Others? What others? How many? Answer me!'*

The Architect - The matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in
which case this is the sixth version.

*Again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: Five versions? Three? I've been lied too. This is bull****.*

Neo: There are only two possible explanations: either no one told me, or no one knows.

The Architect - Precisely. As you are undoubtedly gathering, the anomaly's systemic, creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations.

*Once again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: You can't control me! **** you! I'm going to kill you! You can't make me
do anything!*

Neo - Choice. The problem is choice.

*The scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the Architects room*

The Architect - The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art, flawless, sublime. A triumph equaled only by its
monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is as apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being,
thus I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by
failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection.

Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.

Neo - The Oracle.

The Architect - Please. <em>[Note--this was said rather dismissively, strongly implying that the Oracle is not the "mother of the matrix." Doesn't leave a lot of known "female" programs to consider....]</em>

As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99.9% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a
near unconscious level. While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo, those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would
constitute an escalating probability of disaster.

Neo - This is about Zion.

The Architect - You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed. Its every living inhabitant terminated, its entire existence eradicated.

Neo - Bull****.

*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: Bull****!*

The Architect - Denial is the most predictable of all human responses. But, rest assured, this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it, and we have become exceedingly efficient at it.

*Scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the Architect's room.*

The Architect - The function of the One is now to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting
the prime program. After which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female, 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this
process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will
ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.

Neo - You won't let it happen, you can't. You need human beings to survive.

The Architect - There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept. However, the relevant issue is whether or not you are ready to accept the responsibility for the death of every human being in this world.

*The Architect presses a button on a pen that he is holding, and images of people from all over the matrix appear on the monitors*

The Architect - It is interesting reading your reactions. Your five predecessors were by design based on a similar predication, a contingent
affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the one. While the others
experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more specific. Vis-a-vis, love.

*Images of Trinity fighting the agent from Neos dream appear on the monitors*

Neo - Trinity.

The Architect - Apropos, she entered the matrix to save your life at the cost of her own.

Neo - No!

The Architect - Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed, and the anomaly revealed as
both beginning, and end. There are two doors. The door to your right leads to the source, and the salvation of Zion. The door to the left leads back to
the matrix, to her, and to the end of your species. As you adequately put, the problem is choice. But we already know what you're going to do, don't
we? Already I can see the chain reaction, the chemical precursors that signal the onset of emotion, designed specifically to overwhelm logic, and reason. An emotion that is already blinding you from the simple, and obvious truth: she is going to die, and there is nothing that you can do to stop it.

*Neo walks to the door on his left*

The Architect - Humph. Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and your greatest
weakness.

Neo - If I were you, I would hope that we don't meet again.

The Architect - We won't.

So.. if the Architect is Order (good) does that make the Oracle Chaos (evil)? If so, we can take the religious allegory even further and state the Architect is "God" and the Oracle is "The Devil".

Kinda puts a strange perspective on her conversations with Neo, hmm?


Personally, I think the whole Zion thing is one big sham. I'd be willing to bet there really isn't ANYONE alive at all and all the characters/situations are merely computer simulations caught in some sort of cosmic GOTO loop. :)

"in some sort of cosmic GOTO loop"

Hehe,

13th Floor played with that idea, so did Existenz.

That 'the Real' was indeed just another layer of the Matrix, so to speak.

I did not read Scir's post, but for the first few lines(have not seen it yet).


As too the Oracle being the Devil...

In the Matrix, she did offer him a cookie, and gave him knowledge.

*SPOILER STUFF*











The theory that the "real world" is another layer of the matrix is plausible. That would explain how Neo could affect the sentinels in the "real world" the way he did.

Actually when watching the movie, I thought the film got stuck in a GOTO loop during the cave dance/sex scene... that thing dragged on forever :)

*SPOILER STUFF*









It can also explain with the connection between Neo and the ex-agent Smith and the fact that the ex-agent Smith now have a foot in the reality and in the Matrix.


Eridalafar

*SPOILER*












Brienna,

I actually have that same idea, that maybe in the next movie they will reveal that the "real" is still actually just part of the matrix. But then you have to remember that Neo is harmed after using his powers in the real world, whereas he isn't in what we know so far as the Matrix.

Oh, and thanks a lot for posting this dialogue. Was hard to follow after 2 hours of action :p

Before seeing the movie, I wondered how they were going to have the differences between the Real and the Matrix affect Neo. Put yourself in Neo's shoes. In the Matrix, you are a demi-god with Superman-like powers. But in the Real, you are as vulnerable as anyone else. Perhaps even more so because your muscles are atrophied, and you don't really know kung fu.

Which is why I was intrigued by the fact that some of Neo's Superman-like powers were bleeding into the Real at the end of the movie. I don't think it is a case of the Real being a level of the Matrix, but simply Neo beginning to realize that his insights into the Matrix ALSO APPLY TO REAL.

In other words, the Real is just as much an illusion as the Matrix is, even though the Real is not a part of the Matrix. In fact, it is more accurate to say that the Matrix is part of the Real, correct?

**Spoiler**


In my view, this movie cemented in me the certainty that the Appopolistic Earth and Zion have to be yet another feature of the matrix.

The main reason for this is "happy ending".. really if you think about it, there is no other way for a happy ending. If the humans "Succeed" in fighting off the machines.. then their only recourse would be to live in "Zion"... a city in th bowels of earth.

This to me is still a failure.. Yes the humans "suceed" over the machines, but the species would then have to live in the shadow of the failure of their ancestors.

They have already explored that living the "lie" of the matrix is also not a option... Neo asked Morpheus "I guess there is no going back?" and Morpheus said "No.. but knowning what you know.. would you really want to go back?"

They can not live the "lie" of the matrix anymore.. their minds have rejected it. But then again the only alternative is to live the horrible reality that their planet is a ruin.

====

Speculation:

I believe that it is more plausable that the true reality is that humanity decided to enter the matrix voluntary. I believe that once the matrix is shut down that all of humanity will awake to a perfect earth.. untouched for a hundred years as everyone slept in the matrix.

This would still follow the storyline.. and give us the "happy ending" we need.

** MORE SPECULATION AND SPOILER **
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(NOTE: The "One Hundred Years" that I am getting is from Morpheous's line to Neo "You believe that it is 1999, but in fact it is closer to 2199." That would be 200 years. Now since we all know that it would still have taken a WHILE for the world to become a utopia, I am simply splitting the difference. The world became a utopia in 2099 and then they entered the Matrix)

Now is where I am really streatching... I have not seen all the Animatrix episodes or played the game, so I am probably missing valuable information.

y assumption.

One hundred years ago (2099), Humanity was at its peak. War, sickness, etc.. all were abolished. The entire human race was united in celebration.

Then this "utopia" became borring. People rejected the perfect world and longed for challenge and a purpose. Humanity did not want to destroy the world that they had created so together they all decided to enter a "virtual reality" where they would again have a challenge. In effect, the entire world decided to play a game. That game was "Humans vs. The Machines".

Humans desired a game. The trouble is that "humanity" has forgotten that it is a game since they never thought to include a time limit.

A hundred years has passed since humanity started this game.

It all goes down to the line "Have you ever had a dream that felt so real.. what if you could not awake from that dream..how would you know the real world from the dream world"

In the one hundred years of the game, the machines (our game opponents) have almost succeeded in winning. Only those humans in Zion are still able to try and fight the machines.

There are 3 realities in my view of things:

1. The real world.. probably a utopia, where all of humankind is locked into a "virtual reality".

2. The scorched earth (this is/was the virtual reality that all of humanity entered.) In the one hundread years since humanity entered this "virtual reality" they played (and are still playing) the game.. which was "Humans vs. Machines".

3. The Matrix.. Consider this a Virtual reality INSIDE the virtual reality. This is a weapon/prison designed by the machines to help them win the origional game (Humans vs. Machines).

The Architect = The official machine "opponent". The origional AI consciousness.

The Oracle = My intuition would say that she is a program that is attempting to destroy the Architect... Therefore I assume she was designed by the humans to try and defeat the Architect.

Neo = "The One". Is he human, is he machine... Probably both. If the architect is the Artificial Intelligence, then Neo is probably the machine with a soul.

======

How will it end? Someone will have to win the origional game (humans vs. machines). Either by victory, or by the other side conceding the game.

===
y 2cp.

(Edited) To clarify my points.

Added:

Problem with my assumption: Generations of humans have died and been born in that hundred years playing this game... Would this be acceptable for a "utopian" society? Do people that "die" in the "scortched earth reality" really die? Or do they instead just go into a stasis/sleep awaiting the end of the game?

What about those people that are "born" either in the fields of the machines or free-births of Zion.. Are these newborn babies made through some process in the utopian world (cloning/etc) or are they something else?

In the words of the Oracle.."Something to bake your noodle."

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>That is my 2cp.[/quote]
Dude - that is *so* more than 2cp. =) Interesting thoughts tho...

Possible spoilers for Matrix: Revolutions...

This is a direct copy from a news item Dark Horizons. The site has been pretty much "on the money" in the past (athough the person who submitted the story should practice their punctuation.../grin)

www.darkhorizons.com/news03/030519.htm (http://www.darkhorizons.com/news03/030519.htm)

The Matrix Reloaded/Revolutions (MAJOR SPOILERS): The hour of video throughout the "Enter the Matrix" computer game which was written/directed by the Wachowskis and filmed concurrently with the two movies, contains major spoilers for "Revolutions" and some backstory for "Reloaded". 'TwelveStones' has gathered the key juicy info he could find during these video segments and reveals them here - be well aware though that all this includes MAJOR spoilers for Reloaded and Revolutions so don't go shooting the messenger ok. Lets begin:


"The Oracle (played by an actress named Mary Alice, due to Gloria Foster's death; I assume this means that Mary Alice will play the Oracle in Revolutions, as well) states that a "special child" who will "change the world" is the child of two programs similar to herself. If she means Neo, this would suggest that Neo is a program and thus that Zion is still part of the Matrix. The Oracle says the two programs betrayed her for their love by giving Merovingian (the French information-collector guy, played by Lambert Wilson) her termination key. The Oracle allowed this because she wanted the programs to have their special child.

A hobo with longish blond hair who also appears in the Revolutions trailer has a conversation with Niobe (Jada Pinket-Smith) in which he reveals that the Zion before this one "only lasted 72 hours". Niobe volunteered to be the second ship to enter the Matrix and contact the Nebuchadnezzar because her boyfriend, Command Lock revealed to her that he had arranged for her ship, the Logos, to be the only one not to participate in the defense of Zion, in order to protect her, and she was angry. At the end of the events of Reloaded, Niobi and Ghost's hovercraft (Logos) has crashed in an uncharted underground area and they do not know how they will be found and rescued".

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Edit:

ps. I finally got around to watching the extras on the film's soundtrack and I must say the Animatrix DVD looks to be spectacular!

My boyfriend has played Enter the Matrix, with me watching over his shoulder. It's pretty good (tho the driving levels suck and are way too long). The info and story in it are definitely helpful.

Oh, and that hot French babe who made Neo kiss her? She makes an even hotter appearance in the game.

Monica Belucci.

What significance do you attach to the spoon showing up in Zion?

Remember, in Matrix the young boy told Neo the truth about the spoon: the spoon does not exist, and it is your mind that bends.

The truth is that the spoon does not exist in Zion any more than it did in that apartment. This could be because Zion is also a computer-generated reality, part of the Matrix, or attached to the Matrix. It could also be because, while Zion exists in what we know as the Real World, the Real World is just as much an illusion as the Matrix is. Remember that philosophy is imported from the real world as we know it today, and was meant to address the real world as we know it.

Thus, Neo's ability to affect the sentinels can be due to him realizing that he is still in a matrix-like system, or that the Real World is simply another illusion. Enlightenment applies in either case.

okay, hot Italian babe who plays a hot French babe...

************** S P O I L E R A L E R T **************




As much as I am fascinated by all these musings regarding Zion and a possible second illusion, nobody has mentioned about Agent Smith entering the "Real World". Obviously Agent Smith is the traitor that you see lying on the medical table right at the end of Reloaded, the guy who was gonna slit Neo's throat. This does nothing but add more fuel to the fire of Zion being also within the Matrix, albeit as has already been said at a different level.
What I don't understand is why Neo falls into this coma-like state after "destroying" the sentinels.
Another thing that confused me was whether Neo lied to Morpheus. He took the left door instead of the right one, to save Trinity instead of Zion. Would Zion have been saved if he had taken this door? If eveything up until then had been predicted by the Oracle why would the end be a lie?
The Architect is obviously a clear reference to God. Man with a white beard, sitting watching everything. But here is where it becomes fun. Is Neo Christ or the Devil? I ask this because in many studies the Devil is not a being of evil as we know it. He is pitted against God, whom he describes as being manipulative and creating his own truths, and brands the Devil as evil because he does not follow those rules, and he accepts that fate. Neo could be a clear example of a fallen angel (falls from the matrix), with power at his command (His UBA powers in the Matrix, and now out of it). Zion is deep inside the Earth's core (where we all think Hell is), and The Architect (god) is in a high rise building (heaven). But these are just similarities with what we know in our real world. Let us not forget the importance of Zion in the Bible also, and the fact that most of Zion's inhabitants are of african descent, a clear indication of where mankind came from.
All these clues, or imaginings on our part, could lead to the truth about The Matrix, Zion, etc. or the Wachowski's could just be playing mnd tricks on us :P

Well.. I rented "Enter the Matrix" for the PS2 and am enjoying myself. It certainly ties into both Matix: Reloaded and the short film "Last Flight of the Osiris".

I was pleasantly surprised as the ease of gameplay. I had a horrible vision of Streetfighter-esque button play to fight, but it's simply boiled down to jump, kick, attack, action buttons. You can do specialized things like hug the wall and jumping, but nothing near as bad as let say up-down-A-B-select-A-A(yadda yadda yadda)

It certainly was a thrill to hit the "bullet time' button for the first time. :)

I too am on the driving portion, but hopefully will get past it soon.

"Bull****..."
- the Neo's exclaim in unison

There is a Sci Fi short story called "The Defenders" by Philip K. Dick.

In this story humans are living underground after a nuclear apocolypse, WWIII between the Soviet Union and the USA. The surface of the earth is unlivable, so humans move under the surface and build machines to continue their war for them above the surface.

It had been that way for decades.

Finally one day some American's go up to the surface to check the veracity of their robot minions reports on the war...and the robots desperately do not want them to venture past a certain staging/testing area, however the humans manage to. They do not find the radioactive slag covered planet they expected, but a verdant clean Earth with towns rebuilt, and some Russians.

The Robots tell them how they'd decided that this war wasn't logical and had instead started to rebuild the planet for the humans..but were not going to let the humans know the earth was in good shape until humans were ready...and in a mindset that wouldn't lead to another all destructive war.


The story first appeared in 1953...and I suspect that the writers of the Matrix have read it.

Anyone seen Dark City?

Check the link below. It is a Spanish site and shows comparisons between The Matrix and Dark City.

Eerie.

<a href="http://galeon.hispavista.com/cinerama/actu2/matrixdarkcity.htm" target="top">galeon.hispavista.com/cinerama/actu2/matrixdarkcity.htm</a>

I loved the Dark City.

But anyway back on topic.

I think that Neo's answer "Choice" is pivotal.

He was given the choice between the blue pill or the red pill. But since that 'choice', all of his actions were pre ordained, or destined. Even the Oracle said it, that all that was going to happen was already going to happen. Even Morpheus, agrees, and I don't think that Neo likes the idea of not having a choice. Which may be the crux of the whole saga. And even if we find out that Neo is a program, we have discovered already that some of the Matrix programs don't do exactly what they are told to do.

That is the absence of choice, absence of Freewill. Had a discussion with my daughter about "Bruce Almighty" a week before I saw Reloaded, even. Same philisophical points, kinda. Are human beings happy with fate. Is choice and Freewill an illusion to keep people inline. If bad things happen to good people, isn't it easier to blame on Fate, or God, than your own choices.

I think that the discussion with the French orgasm cook are equally pivotal to Neo's convos with the Architech and the Oracle. He was not there just as a ploy for a chase scene, mark my words on that.

Are cause and effect or fate and prophesy ruling human lives? Human beings throughout history, most really, are able and willing to give up choice for safety and security. I like the suppositions that entering the Matrix was initially voluntary. I can buy that, big-time. Now.

I do not buy the conjecture that the Neo assassin was a Real version of Agent Smith, not yet. Too big of a stretch at this time.

This series is too highly plotted. Every little single bit of information means something.

I watched the Animatrix the other day (bought it actually) and like it even better than Reloaded.

Funny after watching the The Second Renaissance, I actually have a little more empathy for the Machines.


Final Flight of the Osiris is just mezmerizing and the noir short with Trinity is interesting as well.

I thought the Second Renaissance was rather silly personally. They wear clothes and dress like humans? Why does a stainless steel body need to wear clothing? Also in the current two Matrix movies we have yet to see a machine that looks even vaguely human 'cept for the software programs in the Matrix.

I understand the idea is that we taught them violence, hate, fear, etc. so they turned against us and tried to kill us all.

Also the part about the machines being immune to nuclear weapons was just hilarious. Do these people have any idea how hot and how much energy those put out? How about the EMP wave that goes with it from the massive energy surge? Heck, it has been known for MANY years that detonating nuclear weapons from far above the ground will release a massive EMP pulse (which was one option the United States had for taking down the USSR without killing too many people. Their phone system was very poor. A couple EMPs and the entire country would be in an information blackout.

So now, many years later the EMP is their only weapon against the machines and the full might of human intelligence was not able to figure that out when they were at war with the machines? Yeesh. That plot is full of massive holes.

OK I guess everyone gets the ** SPOILER PART **





It almost seems too obvious that Zion is in another layer of the Matrix, way too many clues point to this conclusion. Even to the point where it maybe there just to mislead you until the last second. Also I believe that Neo, also in the same way, has to be a program himself. It is funny that "the One" just happens to be born at the same time the Matrix decides to wipe out Zion. Also they mention Neo as having the "typical" human reaction over and over and over, as if they are drilling it into your head that he is human, almost as if he is too human to be human.

Also the repeated comments about choice being an illusion. Well these people "choose" to exit the matrix, the fact it just lead to another one didn't matter. The illusion of choosing between "reality" and virtual was all that was needed, the fact it was a choice between 2 matrixies was hidden.

P.S. as to the comment about the right door leading to the savior of Zion, was not entirely true. The right door actually lead to the destruction of Zion and the creation of its next inception.

My 2cps.

Neo is a program. Or to put it in a better way, Neo is an "error" in the Matrix programming. A reoccurring, predictable error in the programming. To combat this, the machines have setup a set of fail-safes that will probably force it to dump it's memory, it's powercells (people) and reboot the Matrix starting from the few powercells that Neo chooses. The problem is, the "error" has to choose it's own destruction, very much like the other old programs that were hiding in the Matrix. So it lead to 2 choices:

1. Reboot the system, and save a few powercells for the new setup. I'm assuming that once the error is safely removed, the machines can prepare for the system shutdown and eventual reboot.

or

2. Continue to plague the system until it completely corrupts it. Which in effects, destroys all of the powercells and causes the system to shutdown until a new powersource is presented (the skies clear and the sun is once again visible).

As for the Oracle... it's a program created to understand the humans. It appears to help to the humans, when in fact, it's only helping itself.

At least that's what I think.

Matrix in a Matrix, I'd believe that.

I have a hard time believing Neo is a program. All evidence I see suggests that sentient programs know they are programs. Ie: The birds in the park don't "know" they are being governed by programs. And Neo should be able to look at himself and see the program "glow" if it were so.

Anyway...

There have been 5 iterations of the "systemic anomoly" before Neo right?

This interests me, especially with respect to what the Oracle says in the park. She says "For what it's worth, you've made a believer out of me". I think she could still be on the good side. She knew about all of the "ones" before Neo. She realized that the first 5 iterations were weak, and didn't believe in them. This weakness is reinforced by Mr. Frenchy saying he dealt with Neo's predecessors (seemingly easily), while Neo was not so easy to dispatch.

Neo is truely the "One" of Ones, that will bring harmony to the interdependence of humans and machines. This falls line with the discussion on the "engineering level", of machines and humans needing each other.

Some more to think about...

Yeah, I figured that was the Orace's goal after Reloaded - That the humans and machines become symbionts.

However, that is so very alien to human nature that I don't think it is entirely possible. We shall see how it is approached in the movie, I guess.

Well I finally saw Reloaded the other night, and remembered avoiding this thread until I'd watched it. (It was at my local theatre for only a week, only 2 screens and we missed it 8(, but yay Kazaa!) (Dont worry I'll be buying the DVD I just didnt want to wait any longer. Sides, took me 2 weeks on dialup to get it!)

So, some thoughts...

Dark City totally pwned... one of my favourite movies of all time.

You can harden electronic systems against EMP blasts in many ways, so it's no surprise that the machines on the surface are more or less unaffected by them. Protecting the systems though usually results in a lot more bulk and expense, so that may explain why the generic hunter-killer bots that are used against Zion are not hardened.

I think Tettsuo is on to something with his 2cp regarding Neo.

A lot of it all boils down to the millenia old free will vs fate arguments. I.e. is there such a thing as choice? Does the matrix attempt to simulate a real choice, like some sort of Schroedinger's Box? It's been covered in fiction many many times, one of my favourites was Dune (and God Emperor of Dune which was basically one long conversation hehe), where it was posited that knowing the future removes the possibility of free will.

Rambling... anyway, really cool movie, lots to think about and to look forward to. When's Revolutions due out? Any nifty new info get out recently? 8)

End of shameless bump, but as I said, I'd been saving this thread! Hehe....

Tia

The plotline is classical free-will vrs. destiny. I certainly agree that there are large elements from P.K. Dick's works (and certainly some drawn from Blade Runner/ D.A.D.o.E.S?) as well as Ghost in the Machine and even Chalker's Well of Souls.

In the end the emphasis on "choice" is very telling. We shall see what direction the scriptwriters have chosen though, predetermination versus free-will isn't exactly black and white.

Revolutions is due out November 5 of this year.
Reloaded DVD is out next tuesday Oct. 14th.

A Matrix Philosphy Course on DG. Cool ;)

The Warner Bros. Matrix website offers a subsection full of philosphic writings on Matrix issues. I recommend it to everyone interested in this stuff.

One of the most impressive paper i recently read is published here: www.simulation-argument.com But be warned: Its written in academic speech.

Small update, for those keeping score.... We got Reloaded on DVD last night hehe... it's quite nice.

Was rewatching it with the family, there's an odd bit I hadnt noticed before. As Morpheus, Neo and Trinity are walking through the restaurant to meet with the Merrilvingian (?), Neo spots and meets eyes with someone being led away by a goon. Didnt recognize him, cant figure out the controls to get a close up of him... any ideas?

I am pretty sure, by the way, that the girl in the restaurant with the Merrilvingian (sp), the one he gives the cake to, is the girl in red from movie 1. Not sure if that is significant, but that's what I was thinking.

Yeah, I saw that too Tiane, watching Reloaded last night (we were gonna get it anyway, might as well get it the day it came out since Best Buy had it on sale)...

I felt like I understood a little more...the "save Trinity, but all humans will die" door melting when Neo left" may be the beginning of the break down of the matrix and zion...and Neo saying something was different (after the Neb blew up and the squiddies were after that), saying he could feel them now....so that maybe the breakdown of the matrix in the matrix...

But the Neo Vs. 100's of Agent Smiths fight still sucks as does the needless time spent watching the cave rave and Neo/Trinity rutting scene (hi! cut those scenes and make the movie shorter!)

A comment my boyfriend made about the Neo vs. 100's of Smiths scene which I agree with - man, you really see how much of it is done digitally...=P

y favorite fight scene in the whole movie is still the one between Seraph and Neo...it's more "old school" Matrix =)

The correct (german) writing is "Merowinger" and i think Merovingian is the correct english translation.

erowinger is the name of an ancient european clan that ruled in middle europe from 420 to 720 a.c.

Theres alot of speculation in the world, that descendents of this clan are still organized in a "secret" guild for whatever reason. Furthermore some mystic speculation considers the origin of the Merovingian tribe is a child of Maria Magdalena and Jesus Christ. More Info on Merovingians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merovingian)

Good reading on the mysticism is here http://www.21stcenturyradio.com/merovingian-twyman.htm

This background explains some minor details in Matrix:Reloaded. For example: The weaponry on walls in the Merovingians House, the French Alps scenic view when Neo leaves that house.

Perhaps it bears more insights in Matrix phylosophy, but unfortunately i saw the movie only once a while ago and i cant remember more details of the restaurant or merovingian house scences atm.

i noticed something. the oracle says: all programs return to the source when their time is up.... so she orders neo to return to the source to save the world? so i thought maybe neo is really a program like some people say here BUT... consider he didnt return to the source... and before he made that decision, the architect said: "The function of the One is now to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting
the prime program."
so maybe he isn't a program and is only infused with a certain code which allows him to have such powers...

which brings me to another point, instead of entering the source and returning the code he carries, he went to save trinity AND i think he took some sort of other code when he exited the Architect room allowing him to have such powers in the Real...

just some ideas though

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I've just taken a look at the trailers for Revolutions.

Neo: The program Smith has grown beyond your control. You cannot stop him, but I can.

Oracle: Tonight the future of both worlds will be in your hands, or in his.

From what I could gather, it seems to hint that :

Zion exists in "the real world". Somehow the "Matrix world" and "Real world" are getting intermingled or are similiar somehow. My guess is that the Matrix world is based so much on the real world that once Neo sees thru the matrix world, he can see thru the real world as well. Agent Smith somehow realizes this too and somehow plots to destroy it?

an and machine has to fight together against this common enemy ((aka Agent Smith).