http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/05/31/national/a103919D91.DTL&tsp=1Kan. abortion doc killed in church; suspect held

(05-31) 18:04 PDT Wichita, Kan. (AP) --

Dr. George Tiller, one of the nation's few providers of late-term abortions despite decades of protests and attacks, was shot and killed Sunday in a church where he was serving as an usher.

The gunman fled, but a 51-year-old suspect was detained some 170 miles away in suburban Kansas City three hours after the shooting, Wichita Deputy Police Chief Tom Stolz said.

Long a focus of national anti-abortion groups, including a summer-long protest in 1991, Tiller was shot in the foyer of Reformation Lutheran Church. Tiller's attorney, Dan Monnat, said Tiller's wife, Jeanne, was in the choir at the time.

Tiller's Women's Health Care Services clinic is one of just three in the nation where abortions are performed after the 21st week of pregnancy. The clinic was heavily fortified and Tiller often traveled with a bodyguard, but Stolz said there was no indication of security at the church Sunday.

Tiller had in the past endured threats and violence. A protester shot Tiller in both arms in 1993, and his clinic was bombed in 1985. More recently, Monnat said Tiller had asked federal prosecutors to step up investigations of vandalism and other threats against the clinic out of fear that the incidents were increasing and that Tiller's safety was in jeopardy. Stolz, however, said police knew of no threats connected to the shooting.

In early May, Tiller had asked the FBI to investigate vandalism at his clinic, including cut wires to surveillance cameras and damage to the roof that sent rainwater pouring into the building.

In 1991, the Summer of Mercy protests organized by Operation Rescue drew thousands of anti-abortion activists to this city for demonstrations marked by civil disobedience and mass arrests.

Tiller's clinic is fortified with bulletproof glass, and Tiller hired a private security team to protect the facility. Once outside the clinic, Tiller was routinely accompanied by a bodyguard.

At a recent trial, he told jurors that he and his family have suffered years of harassment and threats and that he knew he was a target of anti-abortion protesters.

Federal marshals protected Tiller during the 1991 Summer of Mercy protests, and he was protected again between 1994 and 1998 after another abortion provider was assassinated and federal authorities reported finding Tiller's name on an assassination list.If it were a Muslim extremist terrorist shooting a Christian, I bet half the federal government would be on the case.

Funny how all those extremist Christian groups aren't labeled terrorists, even though they are far more dangerous to the general public than any Muslim will ever be.

Yeah I know, I'm preaching to the choir here.

Yeah, good point.

It gets better, Fox News, has previously singled the doctor in question, repeatedly, for his late term abortion practices.

I was thinking today about this. We had a relatively quiet 8 years from the right wing extremist crazies. I think they were pretty content during the Bush years. But now Limbaugh and the rest have a real target to go after, like they did with Clinton, and they're inflaming their listeners to acts of violence. Not saying they're responsible, because some portion of their audience probably tends to act out violently anyway but this is how they show their general discontentment with things, by lashing out with explosives and guns.

Frankly, I like the way liberals lash out better. They go sit in trees for months on end and blockade ships and bring law suits.

Hmmm... in the 60's it was the lefties that were the violent ones... well, except for the cops.

It gets better, Fox News, has previously singled the doctor in question, repeatedly, for his late term abortion practices.And has incited violence.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/06/06/MN83181O0K.DTL&tsp=1Slaying prompts close look at incendiary speech

Three days after the killing of Kansas physician George Tiller, who performed late-term abortions, Fox News commentator Bill O'Reilly referred to Tiller the same way he had for years: "Dr. Killer." As in "Tiller the baby killer."

O'Reilly says he was merely "reporting" what others had called Tiller. But O'Reilly often failed to say that he was "reporting" when using the word.

The comments have sparked outrage from experts in ethics and hate speech who say the TV show host's use of such strong words may have played a role in Tiller's slaying last Sunday.

Yes, I implied that was a potential factor in a case. In this day and age of sue happy litigation a clever lawyer could in fact hold Fox News as partially liable in his death.

Fox News, also as of late has been joking of killing Obama. As if oh well, we haven't had a good political murder of a politcal leader in the United States in a few years. But, I am sure if something were to happen to Mr. Obama, I am sure they were just joking and by no means liable in any circumstance.

Well, Fox News should be entitled to free speech, which is more important than any of this.

It doesn't change the fact that they're hate-mongering zealots and unethical journalists.

I have no problems with freedom of speech, freedom of press, etc. However, you can be held liable for what you say. It is almost like yelling fire in a movie theatre, sure you can say it, but, if someone gets trampled to death without there actually being a fire, you can be held responsible.

Fox News, also as of late has been joking of killing Obama.

Prove it.

Prove it.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjYpkvcmog0

A guest, pulling the old Osama/Obama line (one of Rush Limbaugh's), laughed about both of them needing to be knocked off.

Prove it.
Some of their rhetoric certainly characterizes Obama (through innuendo and selective editing of his quotes) as someone who is aggressively seeking to destroy America. If a viewer was dumb enough to believe their crap and considered themselves to be patriotic, isn't it inevitable that the thought of killing Obama would cross their minds?

Even some of their own think that it's getting out of hand...

Shepard Smith Calls Out "More and More Frightening" Fox E-mailers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxvunbIWNyI)

Hate groups are growing by leaps and bounds right now. I heard that there are something like nearly 30% more hate groups than from 2 years ago. I think the shift to the left is fueling that, and all the wonderful incitement from the talking heads on the right.

Gunman Shoots, Kills Guard at U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum

An elderly gunman known to authorities as a white supremacist fatally shot a private security guard at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in downtown Washington today before being wounded by guards who returned fire, officials said.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/10/AR2009061001768.html?hpid=topnews

www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T5eDDL1WuM

This is the most popular one. However there are more.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/10/AR2009061001768.html?hpid=topnewsYeah, that guy is the poster child for stricter gun control.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/06/10/national/w140531D88.DTL

Hate groups are growing by leaps and bounds right now.
It's just like the '90s except I'm sure it will be worse this time around. The Republicans seem unable to lose an election without throwing a tantrum and acting like spoiled children.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T5eDDL1WuM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T5eDDL1WuM)

This is the most popular one. However there are more.
Is that all you got?

This is the basis of your blanket indictment?

Come on.

Or maybe I should translate my post for you...

Baahaaa baaa, baahaaba?
Bah bhahh bahh, bba-aaa bhaaaa.
Baaa baahaa.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Canadian+radio+Obama+assassination+joke+criticized -a01611881704

Got this one. But, it is from Canada, as far as I know, is unrelated to Fox news. It is also fairly popular.

Found a couple from Rush limbaugh on fox news, but, well he is rush limbaugh. Here this one is pretty long about 10 minutes or so.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvIIesJjFU8

This one is from Ted Nugent, it is down there somewhere.

http://swedesforobama.com/index4.html

Will that work for now or should I dig some more?

NYT: The Big Hate (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/12/opinion/12krugman.html?_r=1&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss)

By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: June 11, 2009

Back in April, there was a huge fuss over an internal report by the Department of Homeland Security warning that current conditions resemble those in the early 1990s — a time marked by an upsurge of right-wing extremism that culminated in the Oklahoma City bombing.

Conservatives were outraged. The chairman of the Republican National Committee denounced the report as an attempt to “segment out conservatives in this country who have a different philosophy or view from this administration” and label them as terrorists.

But with the murder of Dr. George Tiller by an anti-abortion fanatic, closely followed by a shooting by a white supremacist at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, the analysis looks prescient.

[More... (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/12/opinion/12krugman.html?_r=1&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss)]

It seems like paranoids flock to the Republican party. Must be something about that mental state that finds it attractive. I'm not saying all Republican's are paranoid, but it certainly seems to attract them.

Actually, I will go so far as to say I think there's a low level of paranoia in most Republicans that you don't find in Democrats. It manifests as a distrust of government, hawkish belligerence towards other nations and often times intolerance and distrust of people with differing values, races and religions.

The "right wing" as it were is often mired in maintaining traditions, rather than more progressive tradition. One could argue, that many of the traditional ideologies never existed in the format it is being presented. This is one of the reasons homosexuality is such an issue, as it breaks the "tradition" of male and female marriage, as well as issues such as homosexuals in the military. Which is ironic considering the ideology of democracy is derived from ancient Greece, namely Sparta. Sparta was prone to homoerotic behaviors both militarily as well civic. They got along just fine for awhile before being eventually conquered. Hence, a reason I have a good laugh or two at their expense as they seek to preserve the tradition of democracy and so on.

There are many other examples of this behavior easily verified by basic observations, backed up with historical facts, that are often ignored, for traditional ideologies with a slight spin, moderate spin, major spin on the facts of those ideas to support a viewpoint, if, not outright ignored.

Conservatives were outraged. The chairman of the Republican National Committee denounced the report as an attempt to “segment out conservatives in this country who have a different philosophy or view from this administration” and label them as terrorists.That's because they are terrorists. At least more so than those they want to label as terrorists.

Will that work for now or should I dig some more?
Of course not.

You are are joking, of course?

You have produced nothing to back up your statement, paraphrased 'Fox News is joking about assassinating Obama'.

I am going to be so bold, as to not call you ignorant or deceived which I gave you the benefit of earlier, but a nm.

That's because they are terrorists. At least more so than those they want to label as terrorists.

Conservatives who have a different view or philosophy than the administration are terrorists?

It seems like paranoids flock to the Republican party. Must be something about that mental state that finds it attractive.

Conservatives Scare More Easily Than Liberals, Say Scientists (http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/09/fearmongering-h/) :)

Conservatives who have a different view or philosophy than the administration are terrorists?A terrorist is someone who uses fear to demoralize the public and advance a political agenda that they otherwise couldn't.

So yes, they are terrorists, even though only a minority are violent terrorists like the ones mentioned in this thread.

And Fox News knows full well that they're advocating terrorism. For every "let's kill Obama" joke, I bet their ratings among rednecks in the South soar. Which is why you'll see more of them, made indirectly by guests of course so that Fox News can hide behind them and claim journalistic immunity.

You have produced nothing to back up your statement, paraphrased 'Fox News is joking about assassinating Obama'.They can't come out and say it directly, because that would cross the line from journalist to fringe extremist blogger.

But they can say it indirectly, invite guests who "accidentally" let it slip, and manipulate the facts to appeal to the hate- and fear-mongers that are their viewers.

The mainstream media certainly aren't saints in this regard, but Fox News takes it to a whole new level. A dangerous level that will likely incite more violence by extremists.

Asked whether the findings imply a fearmongering strategy for conservatives, New York University psychologist David Amodio responded, "Yes.
And some people believe that they are actively using this strategy."
Isn't fearmongering just a lower key form of terrorism?

But they can say it indirectly, invite guests who "accidentally" let it slip, and manipulate the facts to appeal to the hate- and fear-mongers that are their viewers.

Gimme a break, have you never seen Bill Maher, and his guests?

Are what his guests say, automatically put into his mouth, into HBO's?

That thinking is . It is like you are patting paper mache thoughts on top of crappy thoughts, hoping that anything will stick.

And you don't have some sculpture, you have an ugly blob of starch and moldy paper.

What Sarah Palin said in an interview, is reflective of what Katie Couric means, and is an indictment of what NBC and MSNBC stands for.

That is so fvcking .

Gimme a break, have you never seen Bill Maher, and his guests?Bill Maher is a comedian, not a journalist.

Talk show hosts and comedians don't have an ethical responsibility to report the truth. Journalists do. Especially ones that go by the motto "fair and balanced" (yes, it is right there on the Fox News website, near the logo).

Besides, although I don't watch his show, I've seen him as a guest on other shows many times and I've never seen him suggest that Sarah Palin should be assassinated, or incite violence in any way.

Here's a report on a Christian "gay exorcism." No, this is not from the Middle Ages, but today, in the United States.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9v2uk99o2E

Why aren't they being charged with assault, child abuse, hate crimes, and the like? Because they're Christians, and one quarter the country approves of what they're doing.

I'll bet if it were a Muslim exorcising the demons of Jesus from a Christian in exactly the same way, he'd be rotting in prison for life.

You need to post that in it's own thread.

I'm hesitant about posting here anymore, because posts have been deleted for no reason. A bad backup tape is not good reason.

Which is ironic considering the ideology of democracy is derived from ancient Greece, namely Sparta. Sparta was prone to homoerotic behaviors both militarily as well civic.


I have no idea how much homosexuality was allowed and/or predominant in Sparta (*), but democracy (for very very! loose definitions of demos) was the government of choice in Athens.

The demos part was limited only to men of sufficient age and wealth (**) so they could devote themselves full time to government. The unique (and democratic) part of it was that everybody who attained those qualifications had equal say. It still amounted to 2 or 3 pct of the population, same as everywhere else, but that fraction of the population was not determined by heriditary status nor by military might.


Eri
(* Sparta was a typical monarchy, where the only measure of worth was through its military. Because so many men were in the army they had a much higher percentage of slaves than other city states, and this led to them needing that army to keep the slaves suppressed. This also led to them being unable to field a prolongued war for fear of slave rebellions back home. Another interesting Sparta trivia is that the early English boarding schools were modeled after the romantic ideas of what raising young boys in Sparta must have been like).
(** women, slaves, young men and everybody who had to work for a living need not apply. Also, politics were a dangerous arena and losing your powerbase with the other politicians could see you banished from your city, which was a lot more serious then than it would be now).

Here is a wiki source on it, yes, they did engage in that behavior, generally not with the teenagers and pre teens.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agoge

Sparta was rather interesting, something called lacnophilia or something or other, I might have to look it up. The Spartans evolved several times, as while it is true they had monarchs, at times those monarchs often held no political power and were merely Generals on the battlefield, accompanied by 2 or so ephors. Hence where alot of the constitionals of Sparta come into play, as it became, with modifications to structure of other constitutions in generally western societies. But, they easily compare to many of the modern aspects to western societies.

Here is more on their society.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Sparta