YouTube: 9.12 DC TEA PARTY - MARCH FOOTAGE WITH INTERVIEWS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUPMjC9mq5Y)

The interviews speak for themselves. All I can say is that it's a good thing stupidity doesn't have mass or DC would have collapsed into a black hole of hyper-idiocy last Saturday.



Edit: On review of the footage, it appears that stupidity has no shortage of mass. I'm not sure why we're still here.

Here's my favorite one:

http://imgur.com/48u1m.jpg

But I disagree with your post. Most political gathers have a large amount of idiots:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi3erdgVVTw

Not to count that your average voter is more or less an idiot, regardless of ideology.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YN7EDtddG0

Thanks for keeping us infromed, Klath!

Most political gathers have a large amount of idiots:
I agree but it's a lot easier to ignore the idiot that isn't armed and talking about killing/revolution. Sadly, right-leaning idiots seem to embrace violence as a solution rather than as a last resort. I guess when the only tool you know how to use is a gun, every problem looks like a target.

http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Uploads/Graphics/090-0813142824-William-Kostric2.jpg

Although this guy was at an earlier protest, signs with "We came unarmed. [this time]" and the tree of liberty quote were pretty common at the 9/12 protest as were all manner of signs claiming Obama was a tyrant. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the message they want to send.

Thanks for keeping us infromed, Klath!
No problem, I like to desemenate infromation.

I have a graphic to go with that statement but posting it would probably get me banned.

Wait... did you mean inseminate information?

I guess when the only tool you know how to use is a gun, every problem looks like a target.http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2009/08/19/alg_obama_gun.jpg

No, that's not a war zone, but an anti-Obama protest when he spoke in Phoenix.

http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2009/08/19/alg_obama_gun.jpg

No, that's not a war zone, but an anti-Obama protest when he spoke in Phoenix.
You mean you're not going to post the MSNBC verison where they cropped out his head and accused him of hating Obama for his skin color?

The Czar's... omg... they're taking over America!

Dude, wtf are they doing with AR-15's. I mean hell, in the Army I took an M-16 everywhere, that was slightly different taking an M-16 into a school to do color guard for a football game, dropping off a howitzer somewhere, so, the civilians could look at the equipment their tax dollars got spent on, or stopping at a refuel point at a civilian stop and taking my M-16 into a convenience store. What the hell do they need an assault rifle at a public non gun related rally for anways? Come to think of it again, what the hell do they need with an assault rifle? Honestly, about wearing an open sidearm pistol, I could care less, short ranges, low caliber and all that, but, an assault rifle(while a low caliber one at that) that can hit targets 800 meters away?

Wait... did you mean inseminate information?
No, I prefer my infromation with as little semen in it as possible.

What the hell do they need an assault rifle at a public non gun related rally for anways?
Perhaps he's a plant for the anti-gun lobby. :) I bet they're going to raise a lot of money because of jackasses like this.

Or for the pro gun lobby.

This is kinda what is getting me at the moment after watching these videos on this stuff, it is all bandwagon stuff. Most everyone being interviewed when asked about their issues, can not reply or convey some thought process as to the why. While not everyone is a good talker, or good at verbally communicating their thoughts and ideas very well, I can understand that. Usually those guys can at least convey some resemblance of thought or reason. Those interviewed seem to know very little about what exactly happened, what is happening beyond oh healthcare, Obamacare is socialism. What the economy collapsed? Let's blame Obama, no, let us conveniently forget or not bother to do the slightest amount of research into uncovering the why did the economy collapse, it had years in the making, or at least contributing factors into the issue.

These guys aren't enigmas. Both of the open carriers have done interviews; many of them.

Perhaps you (the general) should listen to primary sources of information instead of going by what the talking heads on MSNBC tell you you should think. Just a thought.

hah, I was no general. Sure, my great, great, and so on, grand daddy was during the french/indian war, but, I wasn't. The beauty part of the internet is there is all kinds of sources and bibliography to go with, sometimes true, sometimes not true, independent journalists(I usually find these guys allittle more in depth than mainstream), and so on. I don't have cable or satelite, so, I am relegated to youtube clips, fox news clips, msnbc clips, cnn so on. Plus, you can look into laws, policy, other countries as well, form your own conclusions using whatever philosophical idealogy you prefer.

So, in all those interviews were people completely unaware of what they were crusading for. Both the Obama election people as well as the tea baggers. They were even presented evidence by the interviewers contrary to what they were there for, like the Obama change guy, well, I can not answer this question, but, if you go to BarackObama .com /issues(spaced in case it is an actual website, they link sometimes). That was not a very good answer from him. The lady presented with evidence from an issue popping up from the Reagan administration at the tea baggers. She looked dumbfounded. Hence the bandwagon.

These guys aren't enigmas. Both of the open carriers have done interviews; many of them.
Why does it even matter what these guys say they're protesting? The visual speaks for itself and I can guarantee you that it's going to get wider distribution than any interviews they do. In Kostric's case, people are going to see an armed guy holding a sign declaring "It's time to water the tree of liberty"[/I] (which must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants). His message is pretty clear: "I'm a patriot and I'm ready to shed blood now."

He can say anything he wants about his motives but, in the end, he's just an asshole trying to intimidate those he disagrees with politically. It's that simple.

So, in all those interviews were people completely unaware of what they were crusading for.
Exactly! Left or right, if people are going to go out and stridently argue a political position, they should at least understand what the debate is about.

Why does it even matter what these guys say they're protesting?
So a made up stereotypical view of what these people are doing is more important than what they actually are doing?

Not only does that lack logic, it also reduces complex biological beings (humans) down to 2d caricatures.

Let me guess, when you look at violence against Americans from the middle east you believe in that simple minded stereotype too; "They hate us for our freedom!"

You can be my guest and make up these caricatures all you want in an attempt to discredit opposing view points to advance your political agenda, but don't you dare claim that you take a thoughtful view at analyzing what motivates people if you're going to be insistent on taking this elementary view.

My guess is that in the middle east the hatred against the West is similar to the hatred of the right wing-nuts against the left. Most people just jump on whatever band-wagon is leaving the station that their buddies have jumped on. Few ever really scrutinize their beliefs, but they're willing to become martyrs for them nonetheless.

He can say anything he wants about his motives but, in the end, he's just an asshole trying to intimidate those he disagrees with politically.

Which basically makes him a terrorist.

(which is after all somebody who uses fear and intimidation to force others to adhere to his or her political views).


Eri

Which basically makes him a terrorist.

(which is after all somebody who uses fear and intimidation to force others to adhere to his or her political views).

That's one conspiracy theory. But here is what actually happened:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUxjahek0f8
(Ignore the youtube poster's comments.)

Who was intimidating who?

When you write a pre-written script for people you know nothing about, they're likely to not follow it.

That's one conspiracy theory. But here is what actually happened:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUxjahek0f8
(Ignore the youtube poster's comments.)

Who was intimidating who?

When you write a pre-written script for people you know nothing about, they're likely to not follow it.

I was not talking about any person in particular, but simply about anybody who attempts to induce mortal fear in others to make them cooperate with (or stop resisting) them.

Whether or not that is actually what is happening here I have no idea. I can not manage enough interest to take more than a cursory look. Mass protests are a bit too much like mass religions to my taste. Neither goes well with rationality or independent thought, and both are mostly about people echoing somebody else's words, for the purpose of that other person and not their own.


Eri

So a made up stereotypical view of what these people are doing is more important than what they actually are doing?
If you are at a political protest carrying a sign that says you want to perpetrate violence against those you have ideological differences with and you're visibly armed, I don't really give a rip about what you have to say. As far as I'm concerned, you've said it.

Let me guess, when you look at violence against Americans from the middle east you believe in that simple minded stereotype too; "They hate us for our freedom!"
Would it be a stereotype if they were armed and carrying signs that say "I hate free people. It's time to start killing them"?

You can be my guest and make up these caricatures
This guy made himself into a caricature. If his real motive wasn't to intimidate and he is too obtuse to see how his actions might be perceived then he is woefully out of touch with reality.

That's one conspiracy theory. But here is what actually happened:
If you carry a sign that implies that you want to commit violence against your ideological opponents, don't be too surprised when one of them takes you up on your offer. Like the armed guy, the tall guy isn't doing his cause any favors.

I was not talking about any person in particular,
Of course you weren't. It's kind of hard to argue about imaginary caricatures when you need to discuss indivuduals who don't fall into your stereotypes 99% of the time. I'll ask you what I said earlier:

So a made up stereotypical view of what these people are doing is more important than what they actually are doing?
but simply about anybody who attempts to induce mortal fear in others to make them cooperate with (or stop resisting) them.
What they trying to force people to do? If you actually listen to what they have to say, the open carriers in AZ and NH wanted people to stop applying force onto them, they're not interested in applying force onto others. Now, you can tear apart their arguments and tell them they're mistaken or more worried than they need to be, but that's a different point than the one you just made.

Whether or not that is actually what is happening here I have no idea. I can not manage enough interest to take more than a cursory look
ass protests are a bit too much like mass religions to my taste.
We're talking about armed protesters here, not the Obama protest movement as a whole. It's far from a 'mass movement.'

Neither goes well with rationality or independent thought, and both are mostly about people echoing somebody else's words, for the purpose of that other person and not their own.

How ironic. You said, "I can not manage enough interest to take more than a cursory look." If you don't care enough to look at the matter and come to your own conclusions, and are not merely 'echoing somebody else's words,' than where are your thoughts/opinions on this coming from?

Would it be a stereotype if they were armed and carrying signs that say "I hate free people. It's time to start killing them"?
Lol, William Kostric hates free people? Given that he's a libertarian, I find that that pretty hard to swallow. He's not trying to impose Sharia law onto people, he wants people to live how they see fit baring they don't apply undo force onto others.

Kostric also believes that the world would be a safer place if more people open carried. He encourage his opposition to arm themselves as well. You may think his viewpoint on this is crazy, but he believes the world would be better off if people who disagreed with each other were armed.

One of the things he wanted to prove in NH is that people can open carry and not cause any harm. He is the member of the 'Free State project,' a group of die-hard libertarians who all moved to one state (NH) to try to make it as libertarian as possible. They open carry while even doing volunteer work like cleaning beaches to show that guns are safe.

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And this is kind of ironic. You're making Jefferson into a caricature to help your political agenda, who's one of the most complex and thoughtful people in American history.

Jefferson said, "The tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants," in response to Shay's rebellion. Federalists were using the rebellion to argue that the Articles of Confederation (the precursor to the constitution which was based largely on anti-federalism, the ideology Jefferson subscribed to) was flawed and that a more federalist government was needed. Jefferson blamed the government for getting out of control and causing the rebellion by it's own tyranny.

Jefferson wasn't advocating using force to get others to subscribe to their beliefs, and I think you should apologize to Jefferson for implying that he did. Jefferson advocated resisting the tyranny of government, even if things start become bloody.

Kostric thinks that people must defend themselves from an ever-growing government that's taking away too many rights of the people.

Now, you can call him delusional and paranoid about the state of government in America and naive for thinking that the way to a safer more polite society is more guns in public. You can also argue that he isn't doing much good for his cause for carrying guns at protests (and I'd agree with that.) But what you can't do is call him, "A terrorist who wants to force others into his idealogy." That is, if you want remain intellectually honest.

Gun rights expert: Armed protesters 'setting back the cause' (http://rawstory.com/blog/2009/08/gun-rights-expert-armed-protesters-setting-back-the-cause/)

What they trying to force people to do? If you actually listen to what they have to say, the open carriers in AZ and NH wanted people to stop applying force onto them, they're not interested in applying force onto others.Then why are they carrying loaded assault weapons? As a fashion statement?

Granted, I couldn't care less about their idiotic and hypocritical libertarian views, so I haven't bothered to read their paranoia-laden manifestos.

But if they're carrying around such weapons in an environment that clearly doesn't call for them, then they are either trying to intimidate people or they are just plain stupid.

Lol, William Kostric hates free people?
Oh FFS, stop posting analogies if you don't want me to reply in context.

Kostric also believes that the world would be a safer place if more people open carried. He encourage his opposition to arm themselves as well. You may think his viewpoint on this is crazy, but he believes the world would be better off if people who disagreed with each other were armed.
Yep, definitely a libertarian. It's a brilliant belief system until you try applying it to the real world.

One of the things he wanted to prove in NH is that people can open carry and not cause any harm.
Then why muddle the message by choosing a political rally that has nothing to do with guns and waving a sign saying it's time to start killing tyrants?

And this is kind of ironic. You're making Jefferson into a caricature to help your political agenda, who's one of the most complex and thoughtful people in American history.
Anyone who thinks that the current state of our country justifies the application of the quote has a screw loose.

Now, you can call him [...]
How about I just call him an idiot and have done with it?

Yep, definitely a libertarian. It's a brilliant belief system until you try applying it to the real world.Yeah, hypocritical libertarians toting guns fail to realize that there wouldn't even be guns without collective government. We'd all still be running around carrying stone tools, sleeping with one eye open, trying to not get speared by our neighbors.

But I won't belabor the point, as the stupidity and fundamental hypocrisy inherent to libertarianism is manifest to anyone who thinks about it for about five seconds.

What they trying to force people to do? If you actually listen to what they have to say, the open carriers in AZ and NH wanted people to stop applying force onto them, they're not interested in applying force onto others. Now, you can tear apart their arguments and tell them they're mistaken or more worried than they need to be, but that's a different point than the one you just made.


The fact that they have no idea what they are against is not making me feel a lot more calm about the whole thing, to be honest. Especially not if they essentially are saying (through that infamous tree of liberty quote) that they may have no idea what they are for, or against, but that they are planning to use lethal force against anybody who ends up being their enemy.


Eri

The fact that they have no idea what they are against is not making me feel a lot more calm about the whole thing, to be honest. Especially not if they essentially are saying (through that infamous tree of liberty quote) that they may have no idea what they are for, or against, but that they are planning to use lethal force against anybody who ends up being their enemy.
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I can not manage enough interest to take more than a cursory look.

I think Erianaiel hit the nail on the head with this one:
The fact that they have no idea what they are against is not making me feel a lot more calm about the whole thing, to be honest. Especially not if they essentially are saying (through that infamous tree of liberty quote) that they may have no idea what they are for, or against, but that they are planning to use lethal force against anybody who ends up being their enemy.
Except for the conclusion drawn. Not really understanding the issues and reacting to gut dislike of the opposition is the sort of thing that leads people to do violent stuff.

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*whispers*

I think ... I broke Kamion?


Eri