View Full Forums : Ancient: Starfire of Ro vs. PoP nukes


Emelia Sunheart
03-09-2003, 09:57 PM
My guild is about to enter Vex Thal, and I'll likely get copies of the two ancient druid spells from there (the group ds <even though i also have legacy of bracken>, and starfire of ro).

Does anyone still use Starfire of Ro? I did a little math to see if it's better still, and it kind of is...

Spell: (damage / manacost) = damage-per-mana
Winter's Frost (L65): (1550 / 390) = 3.97435...
Summer's Flame (L64): (1400 / 355) = 3.94366...
<strong>Ancient: Starfire of Ro (L60): (1175 / 285) = 4.12280...</strong>

So, the Ancient nuke is still more efficient than our best PoP nuke. It does less damage, but casts faster, and I've heard in the past that it gives quite a bit less agro than other druid nukes. I've also heard it gets resisted less, <strong>and</strong> <em>it can be affected by Level III foci.</em>

So, I ask again, any Post-VT druids still use their Ancient nukes? Any advice?

Thanks :)

Tiane
03-09-2003, 10:57 PM
I still use it now and then, for the reasons you listed. If solo or in a group w/ no kei or the mobs are fairly resisty I switch to the ancient because it's much more efficient.

I spos if I got elemental gloves that summer's flame would be better, but I still prefer the speed of ancient starfire anyway.

Tia

King Burgundy
03-09-2003, 11:27 PM
I still use Ancient as my primary nuke. I only switch if its a fire resistant mob. Just can't beat it for efficiency.

*Edited to add*

If I ever sat down and really did the math though, its possible that Winter's Frost is actually more efficient manawise for me due to my focuses and having a slightly bigger cold focus. But the difference in my manabar is immediately apparent.

I feel like I can nuke with ancient forever with no cost to my mana. Whereas Frost takes a very noticeable hit in comparison.

Trevize
03-10-2003, 10:56 AM
I use winter's frost for just about everything except Plane of Water. I use Summer's Flame there.

Scirocco
03-10-2003, 11:17 AM
Consider what happens with the new ornate druid gloves with the 20% mana reduction for SF (which appears to be constant, but that may simply be masked due to the size of my mana pool).

Since we're talking about druid nuking, here are the efficiency numbers for a druid with 200 spec evoc and SCM 3 (21% mana reduction):

Spell: _ _ _ _ Dam_ _ _ _ Mana_ _ _ _ Dam/Mana
Moonfire:_ _ _ _ 1150_ _ _ _ 252.8_ _ _ _ 4.549
Anc. SF:_ _ _ _ 1175_ _ _ _ 225.15_ _ _ _ 5.219
SFlame:_ _ _ _ 1400_ _ _ _ 280.45_ _ _ _ 4.992
WFrost:_ _ _ _ 1550_ _ _ _ 308.1_ _ _ _ 5.031
SF w/gl:_ _ _ _ 1400_ _ _ _ 209.45_ _ _ _ 6.684

The elemental gloves give a 25% reduction. If you have either pair and SF, there is no need to ever cast Ancient WF again. It will join our other Ancient spell (our DS) in the dust heap.

BTW, you can get a crafted ranged item (the ceramic rod) that adds a variable of up to 23% to ice DD damage. It has a nice particle effect, to boot. Here are some numbers for it (assuming no crits).

Spell: _ _ _ _ Dam_ _ _ _ Mana_ _ _ _ Dam/Mana
WF 1 %_ _ _ _ 1565.5_ _ _ _ 308.1_ _ _ _ 5.081
WF 12%_ _ _ _ 1736_ _ _ _ 308.1_ _ _ _ 5.635
WF 23%_ _ _ _ 1906.5_ _ _ _ 308.1_ _ _ _ 6.188

As you can see, you might get some lucky crit in the 3500+ range (although I usually get my WF crits in the 3300-3400 range). In addition, the "expected efficiency" puts it somewhat above Ancient SF overall. Note that even if you maxed damage with WF every cast, it still wouldn't touch the efficiency of SF with the gloves (assuming the gloves work at a constant 20%).

BTW, if the gloves have an average reduction of 10%, SF's efficiency drops to 5.72 damage/mana. Still puts it on top in terms of efficiency.

L1ndara
03-10-2003, 01:40 PM
Mana preservation foci have all been random savings so far, I assume the gloves are the same so 13% savings off elemental gloves on SF. All nukes will get an 8% off a mage summoned earring (1 to 15% random,) there are better foci available of course, or 5.5% from a generic mana preservation 4 item (1 to 10% random.)

WF with earring and spec: 1550 for 277 for 5.6dpm
Anc. SF with earring and spec: 1175 for 202 for 5.82 dpm
SF with gloves and spec: 1400 for 234 for 5.98dpm

Aedian22879
03-10-2003, 03:28 PM
Highest Non crit I've had with winters frost and my Umbracite hoop is 1948. So your numbers or off but only by a tad. I think highest crit I got was 34something. But I also have an Obsidian necklace so right now I get a flat mana savings with every spell. Winters Frost ends up being a little better with that combination. Not that I have Summers Flame or Ancient Starfire anyway /sigh.

L1ndara
03-10-2003, 06:48 PM
<strong>My guild is about to enter Vex Thal, and I'll likely get copies of the two ancient druid spells from there</strong>

Likely may not be the right word for it... =(

Fayne Dethe
03-10-2003, 07:11 PM
I still use my Ancient Nuke as my primary nuke, but I dont have my 65 nuke yet. Summer's Flame is pretty much crap IMO - its only good to get higher crits to try to impress people (look my d*** is bigger than yours). I can chain cast ancient nuke all I want, and I never get aggro (assuming you play it smart and dont nuke immediately on incoming lol). Plus, its very fast casting and very mana efficient - a huge plus for those who have specialized in alteration. If I was evocation specialized and wore ornate/elemental gloves, then I'd consider Summer's Flame more, but that's alot of If's for a supposed "upgrade". If you couldnt tell, I was very disappointed with Summer Flame's stats/cast time, lol.

However, you have Winter's Frost which I dont have yet. Winter's Frost is a big enough of a damage increase over Ancient, and has a pretty good mana ratio for you to use that over ancient. Once I get the nuke (bad luck on the few runes I have gotten), I will be using WF as my primary. Yeah the cast time is longer and not as mana efficient, but the benefits are large enough to outweigh that. To sum up, use Winters Frost on almost everything, use ancient nuke for cold resistant mobs.

Abru
03-10-2003, 09:29 PM
I used my ancient nuke until I got my damage focus item. Now I never use my ancient nuke, because the savings is minimal in terms of mana, and all other aspects of Summer's Flame seem to be superior, unless you want to quibble about a fraction of a second casting time.

In raiding situations, I find it extremely difficult to use up all my mana without overagroing and dying, so a small difference in mana efficiency really isn't a reason for me. If you manage to get your elemental gloves, that also increases damage specifically with Summer's Flame, and should leave no doubt that it is the spell to use.

Scirocco
03-11-2003, 07:00 AM
<strong>Highest Non crit I've had with winters frost and my Umbracite hoop is 1948. So your numbers or off but only by a tad.</strong>

My numbers aren't off for a ceramic rod, which is a 23% damage add.

1550 * 1.23 = 1906.5

1948 is a 26% damage add, which is what you have with the Umbracite Hoop.

eqduffer
03-11-2003, 09:03 AM
With a 30% cold spells orb from solro, my highest non crit is 2015. This matches exactly 1550*1.3. The highest crit possible then is 3565 (2015+1550 .. the bonus no longer gets doubled). This matches my experience. Obviously if you've got a bard in group you can crit and hit a bit higher with Rizlona's.

It shouldn't be possible to crit in the 3600+ range without a bard.

Take care,

Aedian22879
03-11-2003, 04:44 PM
ahhh, okay, my mistake then. I thought my Hoop was 23%, guess that's what I get for not looking it up myself. Thanks.

iegil
03-14-2003, 10:11 AM
I use the ancient DS a lot for powerleveling and most of my guild does not use the ancient nuke. Both spells are overcome by pop in my opinion. Certainly nothing I'd bid IDKP on. If I got them great, otherwise... well, its nice to see someone go OMG you got ancient: XXXXXX. Reminds me of the many days spent sitting in Vex Thal.

Boots of Wind, Crown of Ambivalence > All if your going there, save your points for these two common drops. There are Aten drops that area a lot better, but nothing replaces these two items.

Boots of the wind = 20 percent mana savings on all dots/debuffs/nukes.

Crown of Ambivalence = 15 percent duration increase on all debuffs, dots, and buffs.

Mail of Justice or the Soul Essence of Aten Ha Ra offer great flowing though, but don't come close to the utility.

As far as elemental gear goes... The elemental gloves are more than 20 percent conservation. They proc before boots of the wind on the one nuke consistently.

Trevize
03-14-2003, 10:48 AM
Gloves glow with Summer's Flame too.

Sealody
03-21-2003, 09:38 PM
Not sure if I had a bard in group or not.

Highest Normal Nuke:
<img src="http://oneshot.llamas.net/eq/noncrit.gif" style="border:0;"/>

Highest Crit:
<img src="http://oneshot.llamas.net/eq/crit.gif" style="border:0;"/>

Unfortunally, it pales when you see the wizzys and mages crit for more.... :mad:

Sealody!

iegil
03-24-2003, 05:30 AM
That crit has to be a bard group with current focus affects. The nuke, is close to in line with a non bard group.

Lotusfly Stewnicely
03-24-2003, 07:58 AM
Ahh, the obligatory numbers thread!

I ran a quick little spreadsheet for end-game (pre-Plane of Time) items, on a raid/group with a bard...

30% Focal DD items, Kerasha's Boots and Gloves, and max. relevant AA; the numbers agree with those above in trend.


<span style="text-decoration:underline">Assumptions:</span>

Cloak of Combustion, +30% Cold DD = 15% Cold DD average.
Intricately Carved Seashell, +30% Fire DD = 15% Fire DD average.
Rizlona's Call of Flame, +15% DD = 8% DD average.
Kerasha's Gloves, +25% mana saving = 13% mana saving average (on SF).
Kerasha's Boots, +15% mana saving = 8% mana saving average.

Spec. alteration and SCM3, 13% mana saving perpetual.
or
Spec. evocation and SCM3, 21% mana saving perpetual.

Blessing of Reverance, +10% casting haste perpetual.
Quick Damage 3, +10% casting haste perpetual.
Speed of Solusek, +18% casting haste perpetual.


<span style="text-decoration:underline">Results:</span>

Given in DPM (damage/mana) and DPS (damage/second).

<strong>Spec. Alteration</strong>
Winter's Frost = 6.1 DPM, 319 DPS
Ancient Starfire = 6.4 DPM, 256 DPS
Summer's Flame = 6.5 DPM, 290 DPS

<strong>Spec. Evocation</strong>
Winter's Frost = 6.8 DPM, 319 DPS
Ancient Starfire = 7.1 DPM, 256 DPS
Summer's Flame = 7.3 DPM, 290 DPS


The bottom line:

If you've got a fully equipped druid, Summer's Flame is the most efficient in terms of damage-per-mana (by a nose) and DPS. It's a nice way of making the ancient spell obsolete, but it requires some good items. (Elemental planes farmed)

If you don't have the best equipment, but you've managed to get your Ancient Starfire, that's a solid bet. It's just a tad behind the fully-equipped PoP druid. (Elemental planes unfarmed, but Luclin farmed)

If you don't have the best equipment and have yet to get your Ancient Starfire, Winter's Frost is the spell to use. (Neither end-game PoP or Luclin farmed)


<em>Addendum: 2s added to all cast times for calculating DPS, to estimate refresh between spells</em>