Just a random thought,


For those classes without any mana... Warrior, Rogue, Monk.

Should they make it so that any item with + MANA on it, gives them extra Hitpoints instead?

So "obsidianwood compound bow" on a ranger is +100 hp, +100 mana... but on a Warrior it would give +200 hp (1 for 1 mana for HP), maybe on a Rogue (Chain class) it would give +150 HP (2 for 1 mana for HP), and on a Monk (Leather class) it would give +133 HP (3 for 1 mana for HP).

Seems like this could make up for a lack of spells for those classes.

Just a random thought.

LOL....what makes you think that the "lack of spells" is something that needs to be made up for those classes?

It would increase the melee competition on items.

A 100hp/mana item becomes a 200 hp item for a warrior.

It would also tremendously gross up hp on all non casters in the game instantly.

End game you could easily see every warrior hp jump by 1k. 20 items with 50 mana each is not really that impossible with all this all/all ****e they do lately.

Besides, much of the warrior gear is also designed with Pallies and SK's in mind.

Using Furor as an example (though I hate to reference the self important bastard for anythign) he has 1800 plus mana on him right now.

Yeah, that's not a good idea. Although I'd love to use all the +mana on my warrior for something, that's just way too unbalancing to do something like that across the board.

its actually a pretty silly idea in concept but would work very well to reduce the retraded itemization problems the last 2-3 expansions have created.

when warrior gear has 2% hp bonus relative to hybrids, nd hybrids are getting an equal amount of mana in addition, something needs fixing.

the gear designers need to look back at original Planar armor (War = 75 hp, Pal = 30 hp) for what the relative hp bonuses should be. But since the cuirrent designers are retarded @$$monkeys who wouldnt know class balance if it was sitting in the parking lot, waiting to give them gonnorhea, the "mana = hp" solution is a pretty good suggestion as a cheap and easy fix.

Well as I said, it was just a thought..

I can only speak from my reference which is Tier 2 planes. I said a ratio of 1:1, 2:1, and 3:1... but that could be reduced to being more "balanced."

I still don't see how the "1%" top players getting +1800 hp would be "un-balancing"...

Isnt that like 1 hit in Plane of Time?

If you're going to dutifully quote the word balance in any form, I'd have to ask why this change is so necessary in the first place. As Scirocco said, not having spells is not a big deal for those three classes.

"warriors, the most broken class in the game".. ring any bells?

yes, balance is needed.

OHOH, then I want something to make up for the lack of Defensive, and Uber bow shots, and back stabbing... bla bla

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>"warriors, the most broken class in the game".. ring any bells?[/quote]

I'm not sure if your post is supposed to be facetious due to the current crop of whiny warrior message board posters, but I don't know how anyone could keep a straight face and say warriors are <em>broken</em>. What warriors really want is to be able to lock down aggro instantly like a knight, in all situations. I have some decent stuff, not top of the line in any circumstances, but I've never had that big of a problem with it. Even if your post is serious, translating +mana to +hps won't fix anything that's supposedly broken. Logic ... does that ring a bell?

Bad idea for the reasons Oaloaktree stated.

I like the idea..

If you consider that mana to a hybrid class is as important then hps are... Then it would make sense.

But I see it as a warrior only traight instead of all non-casters.

getting a few +50mana items... Well, they could... but there would probably be better +50hp +50mana items for each slot... And these would be hunted by hybrids already.

well look, the better solution is proper itemization (i.e. ZERO "all plate class" items with +100 hp and +100 mana). However, proper itemization died when SoV was released and has not reemerged since.

But the current situation, where hybrid gains 100 hp AND 100 mana, while warriors gain 100 hp, is intlerable - leaving warriors broken.

broken, did I say? Sure, I tanked some Sol Ro minibosses the otehr night. So you could argue I'm not broken.

Except that a paladin with 50k worth of bazaar-bought gear outtanks me in exp groups, while at the same time retaining the ability to rez, heal, stun, root, and DA.

All pure melee are FUBAR atm. restoring warriors their poriginal 20%-ish hp advantage (instead of the current <1% hp dvantage) would do a great deal to help. And so yes, in fact, this solution would be a effective bandaid. Dirty, cheap, but effective.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>ZERO "all plate class" items with +100 hp and +100 mana[/quote]
Thus screwing over every plate class except for the warrior because they all have mana, even bards.

@#%$ to Kunark itemization for how it should have been done.

if you use mana, yes you should get mana. I am not arguing this. But why is it that the HP gap for warriors has to disapear in the process, when the HP gap is the only remaining factor in this classes favor?

Kunark got it right - either give hybrids a small amount of mana and a small amount of hp, or make them choose one or the other.

edit - wtf - why is the word "refe.r" filtered out? how truly bizarre.

Unbuffed I sit around 5950ish hps. If the +mana from all my gear were to suddenly turned to hps, I would gain an additional 1750ish hps cause so many of my slots have mana at 100+.

Not to say I wouldnt like it but I rather have my class be brought back into some sort of semblance of balance then to have them shove hps my way and say "There you go, you should be happy now so shut up".

Heavens forbid that classes actually get gear with stats and effects that are useful and hand tailored to them instead of some gimp multi-class gear that has no effect for one or more of the classes that can use it.

Face it, multi-class gear is simply lazy and causes allot of problems.

Seriously would you, as a druid, not be a little more than miffed that some piece of your all-leather-class armor was balanced with less mana because it had "+X% to kick skill" on it?

This is a concept that would have needed to be considered from day one. With current itemization it would seriously break the game. My monk has 840 mana equipped just because beastlords (and druids in PoP) are tossed on monk equipment, so wis and mana are added. Would I feel uber to suddenly have about 5k instead of about 4k hitpoints? Yeah but it would be overpowering.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Kunark got it right - either give hybrids a small amount of mana and a small amount of hp, or make them choose one or the other.[/quote]

Spoken by someone who played a warrior during Kunark.

A_random_player says out of character "Disco looking for tank"
You tell A_random_player "58 paladin here"
A_random_player tells you "I said tank"

I think it wouldn't be a bad idea as an aa skill for warriors only. A warriors big advantage was always hp. But with the larger and larger hp items coming out, the percentage of that gap is shrinking. Allowing warriors to gain hp from mana items would help bring back that gap. As for monks and rogues, I am sure they would love the extra hp, but I don't think the need is really there as much as it is for warriors.

As it is I don't think warriors are all that far from being guaranteed to be able to absorb a full round of damage from nearly any mob. Even small increases in maximum hp on a warrior can potentially make some encounters significantly easier...

I still wanna know why the word ref.er is filtered out. some druidish taboo against it?

Other problem I see is that we have plenty of all/all gear already, and with the current system we can say that some gear is better for a certain class due to mana etc.

Take this away and we just have more all/all gear overall.

The r-word is probably filtered out because it was a common part of the links from the o-word and related click-farming spam that seems to have died down.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Spoken by someone who played a warrior during Kunark.[/quote]

No, I played an enchanter, but I do fondly remember the Kunark era for many reasons. And Class Balance was certainly one of these.

Knights were properly balanced in Kunark - second choice as tanks.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>with the current system we can say that some gear is better for a certain class due to mana etc.
[/quote]

And you see no problem with this?

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>No, I played an enchanter, but I do fondly remember the Kunark era for many reasons. And Class Balance was certainly one of these.

Knights were properly balanced in Kunark - second choice as tanks.[/quote]

Sorry, you just lost all credibility whatsoever with me.

There are melee items, caster items and items for both.

No reason to change items to balance the classes. That is a lame fix imho.

balance the classes by *gasp* addressing the shortcomings of the classes and changing them, not by as one poster said "tossing hps at them"

If warriors are the first choice as tanks on raids, and I agree that they should be. Then they should be second choice in single groups, as they are now. I call that balance. If they want my agro control in exp groups I want their boss mob tanking ability for raids.

how utterly insane. that idea has to be the most laughably out-of-touch-with-class balance notion I have ever heard in the entire time Ive played everquest.

I'm speechless.

edit - theres a study just waiting to be done here. apparently, people who select the paladin class are genetically preconditioned to think they deserve to play in god mode while everyone else has to deal with such things as "balancing factors" and "downsides". Anyone wanna fund me?

Why is it insane? So Paladins and SKs should be second class citizens of Norrath? Sorry, it used to be that way, and then they FIXXED it.

Warriors as first choice in raids AND Exp groups is NOT balance.

no, engage brain for a moment.

specialists are, by definition, supposed to be the best at what they do. wizards are supposed to be the best at spell DPS, rogues at melee dps, and clerics at healing.

and, despite your utterly laughable notions of "situational tanking", warriors are, by the definition of the class, supposed to be the best tanks.

(how far the game has sunk, when this idea actually needs to be defended...)

You, with your Rez and Horse and Stuns and Heals and stackable buffs and self-only buffs and self proc buffs and Divine Aura... You are not a specialist.

The day warriors became second class tanks, balance went down the crapper. But this is nothing new - SOE makes balance mistakes, and sometimes takes a while to fix them.

No, whats new is the sheer moronicity (knights have caused me to coin a new word - I apologize for the inconveniance) of people who actually believe a specialist should be worse than a generalist at their chosen role.

Sorry, but I can promise you that Paladins and SKs will NEVER go back to second class status, EVER. So you can throw that idea out the window. Never.gonna.happen.

Ah hah! I have psychic powers!

My random thought hooked in 577 people and caused some Warriors and Paladins to start fighting each other.

You hear that SoE!

I want my dark side points! Dark Jedi!

<img src=http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-5/46065/lmao.gif>

Believe it or not, some warriors don't want to see knights nerfed, but in your case, I really want to see you crying when they take away your powers.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
A_random_player says out of character "Disco looking for tank"
You tell A_random_player "58 paladin here"
A_random_player tells you "I said tank"
[/quote]


As it should be. Were not in kunark anymore, Toto! Knights should be second rate tanks, you are only (well supposidly) 75% warrior.



To the guy that said warriors should be number 1 tank on raids, and number 2 in EXP groups, ,,!,, . Unlike about 5% of everquests population, I don't raid for most of my free time. Either warriors are going to get upgraded, or you guys are gonna get knocked off the mountain eventually. It's gonna happen, face it. And I'm sure you would rather see a warrior get an upgrade then YOU get nerfed.:lol:

I don't understand why there is an arguement about who should be better at tanking. Paladins get spells, all warriors get for balance is hp, and being a better tank. Why should paladins, or sk, be equal in tanking ability, and get all the other added benefits?

You're on the wrong board complaining about being a second class citezen anyhow. Go cry on the enchanter or cleric boards.

Right now warriors are barely 2nd class even. I've actually run in to groups that would skip over a warrior a few levels higher, for a paladin.

All arguments aside, I don't see why a paladin would think druids would sympathize with them in any way. Paladins used to get sup heal before druids. Now they just get more heals than druids. That's fine, I don't want to be just a healer. It took forever to get druids sup heal at 51 though. Paladins are far overpowered, and are in severe need of a nerf.

And no, non casters should not get hp if they wear something that has mana on it. Do that, and they'll just make the monsters tougher somehow.

When did paladins get superior heal before druids?
I believe initially druids got it at 53 and paladins at 57...

You are correct Palarran, but dont confuse these people with facts, they are not interested. Paladins have never had More OR better heals than druids.

Im not saying Warriors are not in need of a fix, they clearly are. And I say more power to them getting some kind of agro building/gaining boost.

What I do NOT like is the minority of warriors who want to go back to being the first and only choice for a tank in any situation. The time of the "Holy Trinity" has past, it will not return. This is why I was extatic when druids got their boosted healing, that broke the clerics lock on healing. The fact that a "non-standard" group of say Paladin, Paladin, Druid, Shaman, Rogue, Ranger can go into a dungeon and not only survive but kick 12 kinds of ass is A GOOD THING for EQ.

I'm not down on warriors, only warriors who want 1) Me nerfed to make them look better or 2) to be the only viable tank option like they were pre-PoP.

SoE stopped treating Pal/SK as 75% warrior late velious melee rebalancing, they are 100% pal/sk now, that 75% warrior thing is just as much a relic of the past as druids being @#%$ healers

Melee classes and itemization have been badly imbalanced since Velious (BoC farming with a blowable spawn, anyone?), and things got alot worse with Luclin and PoP.

The solutions aren't to nerf other classes, naturally, but to restore melee classes to the forefront of (surprise) MELEE damage- both offensive and defensive.

Melee only AA's would fix alot of the post 60 game, afaics; AA's which give even more HP per point Stamina, shorten Re-use timers of disciplines, increase discipline durations, possibly even scale down the damage tables but apply the damage bonus to both the primary and offhand.

Who knows, Melee classes are still waiting/hoping for more tuning.

Just one example of itemization imbalance- my Monks have been "passed over" on <a href="http://lucy.fnord.net/item.html?id=30563"><span style="text-decoration:underline">Wistful Tunics of the Void</span></a> because the measly 75 Mana on it was better "utilized" by Beastlords and Druids. (The one, single, drool-worthy "Monk" tunic *was* the Shroud of Longevity, but those won't ever drop again.) Oh well, only three shards left to camp for VT keyz, and a shot at a Lunar Fungi.

Love it, hate it... my Druid has been my "main" since Melee classes got so "hosed" with PoP zones/raids/groups.

Greetz,
Monty - Tholuxe Paells
aka Ceum/Zkar

I'd say melee disciplines need to be retuned without applying AA's. The majority of monk disciplines are toys at best, and I believe the same can be said for most melee classes (though I don't have firsthand experience with the others). Or perhaps simply unlocking the disciplines would do the trick, although it would take away some of the strategy as far as choosing disciplines carefully. I think retuning the disciplines and leaving them locked (shared reuse timer) would probably be best.

Or maybe stances for pure melee classes would be appropriate? Each melee class would be in one of several stances at all times. Make the stances zero-sum and have them stack with disciplines. For monks it could be as simple as +avoidance/-damage, neutral, and -avoidance/+damage.

Maybe add a discipline suitable for AE rampaging mobs, along the lines of -50% AE rampage (only) damage, -50% damage output. Beats throwing shurikens.

Numbers and ideas are off the top of my head, I don't claim that they are balanced as described--they'd certainly take some refining.

Warriors should be able to get aggro just as fast as a pal/sk and be able to hold that aggro for as long as he wants. Pal/SK should be tied for 2nd place in tanking in all situations.

Big problem is those of us, rogues/monks/warriors have no mana and no spells so we are at a severe disavantage to the spell casting classes. Were supposed to be purist, the best at what we do, but that line started blurring up around Luclin and now in PoP the whole thing is a big joke.

Because warriors can not emergency heal, pacify, solo as well or lots of other things that pallys can do because of their spells, I think they should be the best tank in any situation. They are the specialist after all. However that being said it should never be a bad enough difference that people constantly sit and wait for a warrior when a sk or pally are in the zone LFG. (Kind of like the cleric/druid thing. Clerics should be the best healer cause the specialize in it. However druids should have no problem at all filling in so that more groups could form using the druid lfg in zone already. With a little more tweaking and moving down some spells, we could be there.)

Kunark was broke cause Hybrids could not even adequately fill in. Now it is probably a little too far the other way. Hybrids can tank almost as well and better in a lot of situations and also offer backup heals, spell utility and better soloing. The fix should be improving warriors and not nerfing pallys, but there are some great suggestions on PON on this already.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> Because warriors can not emergency heal, pacify, solo as well or lots of other things that pallys can do because of their spells, I think they should be the best tank in any situation. They are the specialist after all. However that being said it should never be a bad enough difference that people constantly sit and wait for a warrior when a sk or pally are in the zone LFG. (Kind of like the cleric/druid thing. Clerics should be the best healer cause the specialize in it. However druids should have no problem at all filling in so that more groups could form using the druid lfg in zone already. With a little more tweaking and moving down some spells, we could be there.) [/quote]

Exactly Brum. Druids are second rate healers that bring more things to the group. Snare, Nukes etc etc. There, even with the benifits, is a downside to having a druid in the group (someone dies or something blah bla). This is the exact same with Warriors and SK/Pal, ONLY that there is no penalty, no downside, to having one in the group. They tank just as well as warriors without the ping-pong (provided similar gear). And in some cases even better.

With that said, There shouldn't be a downside to having a warrior in the group.

haha welcome 13k+ tanks

All they need to do is make some great AC/HP/Regen/Sta/Cha/hate/haste items with either negative mana/wis/int and/or a focus effect which increases mana cost, cast time, or any other series of negative focus effects which affect casting.

It's idiotic that all focus effects must by their nature be beneficial, it's a great way of balancing gear, by giving negative stats/effects which effect the casting side and not the melee side, but allow whomever wants it to equip it.

I like the idea, but its not like warrior need upgrades, PoP has been completed with 8k tanks. Why do we need furor to add his 1800 mana pool and make him a 9800 tank?

Think back a year or two, hearing of a ranger with 6k hp...you'd say that would never happen, much less unbuffed! I guess some said the same thing about druids also hitting 5k unbuffed.

<em>I'd rather them fix broken content rather than introduce more things...but not like that'll happen...</em>

Oh well, 'To each his own'

haha, I may not be a druid, warrior, rogue, or monk, heck all I PLAY are hybrids, but, I VERY agree with this point, however youve got the melee balanceing part wrong. Yes warriors suxxor at tanking now compared to knights, which is NOT as it should be, heck your average BEASTLORD could outtaunt a warrior now just casting one spell, and thats REALLY screwed up, as they can typically tank almost as well too. NOT RIGHT!

You guys are going about this the wrong way however, you guys are saying "hey, the warriors were better tanks back in kunark, so the reason they were must be why they should be now!" WRONG! you need to look at the reason knights are considered better, not why warriors WERE considered better. Knights, contrary to even KNIGHTS themselves apparent opinions, are considered better tanks due to their DPS and aggro causing capabilities. I posted a Similar post to this on the beastlord forum, called what would you like to see in a new XP, you should check it out over at eqbeastlord.com/forums. I discussed warrior class balance quite intimately there. The main two things warriors need, are more dps/versatility, and more aggro causing abilities. I thought of some there, and these are they:

Warrior Combat Techniques-The way warriors can be tanks again!
These techs allow wariiors to have special abilities without spells or overpowering them, they will use the same timer as bash/kick, making it so they are not simultaneously used, and just like bash/kick, will have a 6 second reuse timer. These skills will work off of specific herein mentioned other skils for their skills, and will innately be learned at appropriate levels similar to /shield and the old beastlord Summon Warder skill. My current list is...

Indomitable-The warrior is granted an infinite power rune spell with a short duration, that instead of blocking the damage, will divert it to the "Tech indomitable queue" for lack of a better term. At the time that the ability's effects expire(This skill will have an independent reuse time, and the final effect may not be mitigated via protection spells EG divine aura) The warrior will recieve all queued damage instantly, at once. Any healing the Warrior recieves during the effect will remove damage from the queue, making warriors a new preslowing tank, and able to survive that late cast complete heal gap.

Whirlwind-This will give the warrior the ability to instantly"Reverse Crit"(Do half damage rather than double as a crit does) all enemies within melee range all at once, using both the dual wield and double attack skill checks for chance to multiple attack each target. The warrior stirs into a frenzy so fast, that this also grants 100% strikethrough, meaning the attack may not be blocked or dodged/parried/riposted. This technique runs on an independent timer of roughly 1 minute, and generates an additional amount of aggro equal to doing 400 points of melee damage to each target. This attack may however suffer poor hits and misses, as if it were a normal attack.

Tackle(or charge,shield push, whatever, havent decided a good name yet)-This skill is on the same reuse timer as bash/kick, and uses the same skill check as bash to determine damage and %chance to hit. This may only be used while the warrior is using a shield of at least 20 AC in strength, and when used, grants the warrior the ability to instantly proc the spell "knockback" on the target, provided the attack lands, knocking the target back a maximum of 100 feet, and stunning it for one second. The knockback will be stopped if the target collides with the world/an object.

Rally-This warrior Tech will allow the warrior, once per quarter hour, to call out a battle cry, granting his paty renewed vigor and reinforcing their spirits. When used this skill will immediately heal the warriors group within a radius of 50 feet, by 50% of their maximum hitpoints, and grant them a 10% haste bonus, unaffected by the haste cap, similar to the bardsongs battle and warcry of the vah shir, which the haste component will not stack with, although the heal will still land.

Cripple-This grants the warrior the ability to lash out at the targets legs, crippling their movement, and using the current primary hand's melee skill to determine % to hit and damage. If the attack strikes the target, the target recieves a 50% slower movement speed. This is unresistable.

Infuriate- This will grant the warrior the ability to, instead of their typical taunt skill, use an improved taunt that adds aggro points equal to ten times their level onto the target's hate list, this ability works off the taunt skill and uses the taunt reuse timer.

Overhead Strike(another lack of a better name he he)- This skill grants the warrior the ability to, using the bash timer and only usable when the warrior is capable of using two handed bash AA skill, to bash with a two handed weapon, interrupting any casting and dealing typical 2hbash damage to the target. This skill will also render the target incapable of casting spells for 3 seconds, if the to hit attempt is successful.

Unsubduable(another poor name, sigh)-The final warrior Tech skill allows the warrior to, once every half hour, instantly break free of any incarceration spells, including root, snare, mezmerize, and stun, render him immune to their effects for one minute, and send all creatures in melee range flying, unresistably, 100 feet or until they strike a solid object. If stunnable these creatures are then stunned for 10 seconds.

Nice proposal. Do you really believe the average int 6 war is able to remember all those abilities during a hot battle? /jk

Actually there are warrior issues today. But like alot people mentioned, they are not related to max HP.

Look at an exp group with druid as main healer. Pallies are able to insta lock agro and stun the mob = druid saves mana and is able to heal and nuke right away. Shadowknights are able to insta lock agro, cannot stun, but they tap mana for the druid = druid gets mana and is able to heal and nuke. Warriors are often related to their weapons proc for locking agro and thats it. No other benefit of having a War in group.

Transferring +mana in +hp for a war doesnt solve anything. The better solution in my opinion is, to add the +mana of items to the warriors taunt skill AND his taunt range. I am often a puller in PoP Zones and i prefer to have knights as tanks just because they can lock on agro even before the mob is in camp. A bow using warrior is a joke compared to this.

Why not enabling a Warrior to taunt his target by a "warcry" even if he does not see it at the moment? Design the "warcry" as some sort of "magical" ability and increase range and efficiency by +mana gear, without even using mana.

We just had a knight class (chuckle) a Shadowknight in fact break 10k hps buffed w/stat food. We have several warriors over 10k also.

I think the biggest thing on a raid that determines how fast we kill a mob is the CH chain and if the mobs dps is enough per round to set off DI.

Give Valero or one of our other warriors another 1500-1800 hps, and I doubt all but maybe 2 mobs in time would even stand a chance of setting off DI.

As for warrior class balance, its being worked from the top down, I think so far theres around 18 perc stackable shielding that a warrior could get in total with just the gear that we have seen drop, and a similar # in spellshield. Once tanks start filling up on this kind of gear, you will see a huge gap develop between a Time tank, and a non time tank, almost a mirror of luclin era emp/vt capable tank and a have not.

<strong>Melees tend to be more gear dependant then casters, whereas our primary weapons are spells.</strong> This makes top down balancing make sense to provide integrity to the class.

Whats the difference between me and a luclin era enchanter.

AA's? i got about 470, if he takes the time he will have that many too

Spells? except one or two ancient spells, he has access to the same spells i do, even if he has to get them from the bazaar

my 7k hps vs his 4k? not really, just means i may live through that first round to die in round two before a spell gets off

Focus effects maybe... this is where you start to see seperation from casters on what they can accomplish.

But for tanks... 11k hps vs 7-8k thats a hella gap, throw in some shielding and spellshield, maybe a little avoidance, and a few self only buffs and its the difference between day and night.

Paladins did used to get sup heal before druids. It was a huge deal when druids got it at 51. Paladins do have more heals than druids at certain levels. They get celestial heal type spells and group heals.

The Holy Trinity that people are referring to, does not involve warriors, or other tanks.

Warriors haven't been the best tank option for a long time.

Warriors should be the first and best choice for a tank. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't be able to have a decent group because you're stuck with a knight, it means just what it says. Knights are far overpowered. If you don't think so...go get a war of the same level, with compairable equipment. Go solo the same monster. Make it db to yellow. See who kills it first, and is able to kill another without dieing.

BTW! Once again people are forgetting about a very large part of the game. Most people seem to be worried about what happens once you are high enough to be considered for planes groups. The levels only go to 65. Most people under 55 don't get groups in the planes (except PoJ) on a regular basis. That leaves 10 levels...10 out of 65.

No, paladins never got superior heal before druids.

Initially it was 53 for druids and 57 for paladins:
eq.crgaming.com/kunark/spells/ (http://eq.crgaming.com/kunark/spells/)
eq.crgaming.com/kunark/spells/druid (http://eq.crgaming.com/kunark/spells/druid)
eq.crgaming.com/kunark/spells/paladin (http://eq.crgaming.com/kunark/spells/paladin)

Those are the prerelease kunark spell lists from castersrealm, last updated April 21, 2000. Kunark went live on April 24.

And having more healing spells doesn't mean anything (going strictly by spell count). They're two very different types of healing anyway; they're hard to compare.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>specialists are, by definition, supposed to be the best at what they do. wizards are supposed to be the best at spell DPS, rogues at melee dps, and clerics at healing.[/quote]

The balance problem is, if only specialists are any good at anything, then all the other classes suck ass.

Classes that suck ass are not balance. Thus, your definition of balance is flawed. Q. F. D.

Should warriors have some extra stuff? Yes.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>As it should be. Were not in kunark anymore, Toto! Knights should be second rate tanks, you are only (well supposidly) 75% warrior.[/quote]

25% cleric, 75% warrior was tried.

It resulted in a sucky class. No really, the class was a piece of crap.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>To the guy that said warriors should be number 1 tank on raids, and number 2 in EXP groups, ,,!,, . Unlike about 5% of everquests population, I don't raid for most of my free time. Either warriors are going to get upgraded, or you guys are gonna get knocked off the mountain eventually. It's gonna happen, face it. And I'm sure you would rather see a warrior get an upgrade then YOU get nerfed.:rolleyes[/quote]

I agree.

Warriors should be better in some xp situations, Knights should be better in others.

Warriors should be betterin some raid situations, Knights should be better in others.

In both cases, their primary role is tanking. Having 1 class in 15 being a far better tank than the rest of the classes causes the game to be out of balance.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I don't understand why there is an arguement about who should be better at tanking. Paladins get spells, all warriors get for balance is hp, and being a better tank. Why should paladins, or sk, be equal in tanking ability, and get all the other added benefits?[/quote]

There are a few roles in EQ. In general, you should aim for multiple classes able to fulfill a role.

Also, those classes that fill a role should somewhat stack.

I'm not saying EQ is perfect, but your version of balance is nearly orthogonal to what really matters.

As for HP->mana, sure, if anyone can choose to turn any amount of mana into HPs. Possibly give warriors a bonus on the conversion.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Warriors should be able to get aggro just as fast as a pal/sk and be able to hold that aggro for as long as he wants. Pal/SK should be tied for 2nd place in tanking in all situations.[/quote]

And thus render the class into piece of complete garbage. Good balance!

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Big problem is those of us, rogues/monks/warriors have no mana and no spells so we are at a severe disavantage to the spell casting classes. Were supposed to be purist, the best at what we do, but that line started blurring up around Luclin and now in PoP the whole thing is a big joke.[/quote]

So, add more interesting abilities. Stuff like SoS for rogues.

Implement a "recipie book" for rogues, and allow them to apply poison-procs from their poison bar. A poison takes 1.0 seconds to apply, and every time it procs it has a 1 in 100 chance of consuming a reagent. Applying a poison does not take a reagent, it only consumes reagents (sometimes) on a proc.

Make all classes interesting. Don't just tear down all competators and make them useless.

If you read the top, it also says that they most likely will change.