View Full Forums : Druid nuking in PoP... Getting the shaft

10-17-2002, 05:46 AM
Here are the OLD numbers...

Magician POP Damage Spells
***Direct Damage***
Level 61: Firebolt of Tallon
Damage: 1200 Mana: 320 Casting Time: 7.0 (2.5 recast)
Mana Ratio: 3.75 d/m MAX DPS: 126.32dps
Level 63: Black Steel
Damage: 1000 Mana: 275 Casting Time: 6.5 (2.5 recast)
Mana Ratio: 3.64 d/m MAX DPS: 111.11dps
Level 65: Sun Vortex
Damage: 1300 Mana: 400 Casting Time: 6.0 (2.5 recast)
Mana Ratio: 3.25 d/m MAX DPS: 154.94dps
***Rain Damage***
Level 62: Sun Storm
Damage: 3x700 Mana: 440 Casting Time: 4.0 (12.0 recast)
Mana Ratio: MAX 4.77 d/m MAX DPS: 131.25dps
Level 64: Maelstrom of Thunder
Damage: 3x800 Mana: 500 Casting Time: 6.0 (12.0 recast)
Mana Ratio: MAX 4.8 d/m MAX DPS: 133.33dps

Wizard POP Damage Spells
***Direct Damage***
Level 63: Agnarr's Thunder
Damage: 2000 Mana: 550 Casting Time: 7.0 (2.5 recast)
Mana Ratio: 3.64 d/m MAX DPS: 210.53dps
Level 65: Strike of Solusek
Damage: 2700 Mana: 800 Casting Time: 5.0 (2.5 recast)
Mana Ratio: 3.38 d/m MAX DPS: 360dps
***Rain Damage***
Level 61: Tears of Ro
Damage: 3x750 Mana: 540 Casting Time: 5.0 (10.0 recast)
Mana Ratio: 4.17 d/m MAX DPS: 150dps
Level 65: Tears of Marr
Damage: 3x750 Mana: 400 Casting Time: 5.0 (12.0 recast)
Mana Ratio: 5.63 d/m MAX DPS: 132.35dps

Druid POP Damage Spells
***Direct Damage***
Level 64: Summer's Flame
Damage: 1300 Mana: 370 Casting Time: 6.7 (2.5 recast)
Mana Ratio: 3.51 d/m MAX DPS: 141.3dps
Level 65: Winter's Frost
Damage: 1395 Mana: 380 Casting Time: 6.7 (2.5 recast)
Mana Ratio: 3.67 d/m MAX DPS: 151.63dps
***Rain Damage***
Level 61: Winter's Storm
Damage: 3x800 Mana: 500 Casting Time: 3.5 (12.0 recast)
Mana Ratio: 4.8 d/m MAX DPS: 154.84dps

And here are the NEW numbers...

Magician POP Damage Spells
***Direct Damage***
Level 61: Firebolt of Tallon
Damage: 2000 Mana: 500 Casting Time: 7.0 (2.5 recast)
Mana Ratio: 4.0 d/m MAX DPS: 210.53dps
Level 63: Black Steel
Damage: 1400 Mana: 360 Casting Time: 6.5 (2.5 recast)
Mana Ratio: 3.89 d/m MAX DPS: 155.56dps
Level 65: Sun Vortex
Damage: 1550 mana: 395 Casting Time: 6.35 (2.5 recast)
Mana Ratio: 3.92 d/m MAX DPS: 175.14dps
***Rain Damage***
Level 62: Sun Storm
Damage: 3x800 Mana: 440 Casting Time: 4.0 (12.0 recast)
Mana Ratio: MAX 5.45 d/m MAX DPS: 150dps
Level 64: Maelstrom of Thunder
Damage: 3x900 Mana: 480 Casting Time: 6.0 (12.0 recast)
Mana Ratio: MAX 5.63 d/m MAX DPS: 150dps

Wizard POP Damage Spells
***Direct Damage***
Level 63: Agnarr's Thunder
Damage: 2305 Mana: 580 Casting Time: 7.0 (2.5 recast)
Mana Ratio: 3.97 d/m MAX DPS: 242.63dps
Level 65: Strike of Solusek
Damage: 2740 Mana: 640 Casting Time: 8.0 (2.5 recast)
Mana Ratio: 4.28 d/m MAX DPS: 260.95dps
***Rain Damage***
Level 61: Tears of Ro
Damage: 3x750 Mana: 400 Casting Time: 5.0 (10.0 recast)
Mana Ratio: 5.63 d/m MAX DPS: 150dps
Level 65: Tears of Marr
Damage: 3x850 Mana: 425 Casting Time: 5.0 (12.0 recast)
Mana Ratio: 6.0 d/m MAX DPS: 150dps

Druid POP Damage Spells
***Direct Damage***
Level 64: Summer's Flame
Damage: 1350 Mana: 370 Casting Time: 6.0 (2.5 recast)
Mana Ratio: 3.65 d/m MAX DPS: 158.82dps
Level 65: Winter's Frost
Damage: 1465 Mana: 375 Casting Time: 6.0 (2.5 recast)
Mana Ratio: 3.91 d/m MAX DPS: 172.35dps
***Rain Damage***
Level 61: Winter's Storm
Damage: 3x850 Mana: 500 Casting Time: 3.5 (12.0 recast)
Mana Ratio: 5.1 d/m MAX DPS: 164.52dps

Also THIS was spoted for the wizards...

Level 65: Shock of Magic
Damage: 1000-3000 (RANDOM) Mana: 600 Casting Time: 6.0 (2.5 recast)
Mana Ratio: 1.67-5.0 d/m MAX DPS: 117-353dps

10-17-2002, 05:56 AM
So they got an upgrade.... /shrug. Our spells got upgraded too, I'd hardly call that "getting the shaft."

10-17-2002, 06:07 AM
"Level 61: Firebolt of Tallon
Damage: 2000 Mana: 500 Casting Time: 7.0 (2.5 recast)
Mana Ratio: 4.0 d/m MAX DPS: 210.53dps"

This is the only real odd upgrade...seems a big jump. However Im guessing this is to make mages of use on raids after the mod rod nerfs as well their current nukes arnt even as good as druid nukes I believe.

"Level 65: Winter's Frost
Damage: 1465 Mana: 375 Casting Time: 6.0 (2.5 recast)
Mana Ratio: 3.91 d/m MAX DPS: 172.35dps"

This is our best nuke..well the dps isnt that great IF you compare directly to what mages had before and what we had. So Im only going on the theory that mages need some sort of upgrade on we did for healing.

Id like to see our nuke a little closer personally though...something along the lines of 190dps maybe even pushing 200. Still not as good as mages but not far off..seems the 172dkps to 210 dkps gap is a little great atm.

(disclaimer :P.. Im working on the above figures being correct...if their not then my opinion may change).


Silverblade the Enchanter
10-17-2002, 06:34 AM
Problem with bolts is they need LOS and are evocation, most mages are conjuration specilists by the way :)

*class who got NO nuke upgrade damage since kunark*


10-17-2002, 06:37 AM
/cheer TILS!

Yes as silverblade said it is a BOLT spell based in evocation. A BOLT spell is very hard to use in alot of situations because it requires a direct line of sight with no obstructions at all.

10-17-2002, 06:50 AM
As an evocation druid, I'm kinda sad, but I seem to understand the logic and feel ok. With our improved healing, I think I have more to do with my mana now than just nuking (although its still my favorite pasttime).

Grenna TP
10-17-2002, 06:51 AM
Good thing mages got an upgrade. More DPS -> shorter fights

10-17-2002, 07:09 AM
An upgrade to Mages is not a nerf to Druids. The new heal we got must have had a profound effect on you, as complaining that other classes are getting too good is the calss defining ability of the Cleric.

Tuved Stormrunner
10-17-2002, 08:37 AM
Mages have been screwed for a long time and the rod nerf made it worse. I'm glad their new nukes kick @#%$! Go mages! I really don't mind taking a back seat to Wizards and Mages in nuking. It's as it should be. I still nuke well and can contribute. Mages can now contribute again too :)

Saurin CoTG
10-17-2002, 08:58 AM
I also think it is a good upgrade for mages. Given the limitations of bolts, they should hit hard and be significantly better than comparable DD. Nice changes, and does not bother me at all.

10-17-2002, 09:16 AM
I only wish we got one of our new nukes at 62 or so... By the time we get our first new nuke, even clerics can nuke as well as us 8 )

Mages with a bolt like that one will be pretty nice though, as long as it is a fire vulnerable mob. Will be a huge difference for them on fire immune stuff though... but those pets they get will probably be really neat new ideas I think, especially with shield capabilities and all.

All I know is, the more impressive everyones spells are the better as far as I cam concerned, since most of the time it is a team effort to kill stuff. And we do get hte best rain spell earlier than the other folks, plus the highest total damage AE, even if it is outdoors only and not as efficient.

- Naldiian

10-17-2002, 09:20 AM
I don't like being outnuked by a mage for 500, but <shrug> I can live with it I guess. Besides, there isn't a lot of mages around to be jealous of anyway.


10-17-2002, 09:23 AM
I don't mind mages getting good nukes but I don't think they should surpass druids. Pet = mage damage. I understand pets aren't feasible on a lot of raids but there has to be a better way to upgrade mages than allowing them to nuke better than a druid. It should go wizard, druid, etc. If we start falling to third best on things were going to be right back where we were. I don't blame mages, just Verant for taking away the mod rods and not doing more things for mages. There's too much redundancy and overlapping in this game unfortunately, that's why people get upset I think. Too many shared skills/spells that people become greedily protective of. Anyway, that's my two cents on the matter. :mad:

Talyena Trueheart
10-17-2002, 09:37 AM
Poor mages? Mages have been the most damaging caster class for a while. Between their nukes and their pet, they out damage many melee classes and can keep up a dps that no other caster can match. Heck, just their pet is enough to out damage most of the casting classes.

On the other hand, grats on the upgrades. I never begrudge a class getting some good upgrades. The more damage a raid can put out, the faster a mob dies. Grats to all the nuking classes to finally getting some reasonable upgrades in nuking power.

Fayne Dethe
10-17-2002, 10:02 AM
Actually, Summer's Flame is 350 mana (3.86 efficiency). Also, magician nuking is about where it is supposed to be - Magician and druids have always had around same efficiency/damage except magician bolt spells used to be better than our nukes. Also, Magicians have always had some of the better rain spells. However, I find it odd that such a nice bolt is level 61 instead of 63 or so. Also I think Winters Frost should be slightly adjusted - change the damage to 1490 for 380 mana = 3.92 efficiency so the big DD nukes are closer for magicians and druids (with magicians still having a 60 pt edge and of course the bolt spell still superior).

10-17-2002, 10:02 AM
Bolts are very situational and easily blocked. Im very surprsied with the changes, but just as it was seen that overnight some very impressive changes could happen, theres still 4 more nights for such changes to take place. Im excited, but appropriately prepared for changes, so all this speculation and complaining or whatnot is really silly.

Another way to look at things:

Druids take a backseat to Mages on Fire-based Nukes, but step ahead of wizards on cold-based nukes.

Level 65: Winter's Frost
Damage: 1465 Mana: 375 Casting Time: 6.0 (2.5 recast)
Mana Ratio: 3.91 d/m MAX DPS: 172.35dps

Wizards are still stuck with ISoS and ADoI.. even with E'Ci's focus spell, their best cold-based nuke still doesnt compare with a crit on Winter's Frost. Think about that :)

** No matter how rare Winter's Frost may end up being, its still not going to be as rare as Ancient: Destruction of Ice ... which means that really, its only fair to compare Winter's Frost to Ice Spear of Solist.

10-17-2002, 10:02 AM
Oh well sucks now that Mages are better nukers then Druids at level 65. They get more dmg for 10 more mana.

Tuved Stormrunner
10-17-2002, 10:27 AM
Um, Druids should never have been the number 2 nukers in game. It should have always been Wizards, Mages....then Druids.

I can't believe you people think Druids should out nuke mages. Screw mage pets. Who cares. They are useless on almost all raids so I don't even count mage pets. I have alot of mage friends who just sat on their asses on raids and make piles of rods for clerics. Now with that nerfed I'm glad to see they'll have some serious nuking to dish out.

10-17-2002, 10:51 AM
Wow i totally agree with tuved on this point. i think its the first time that has happened:P


10-17-2002, 11:08 AM
Didn't read too much of this, but a couple things, wizards and magicians do NOT have a 2.5 second recast on those nukes you listed, they have 0, which is effectivly 0.5 in practice. Only druids have the 2.5 recast on their nukes.

Magician pets currently put out of 30+dps on Vex Thal boss mobs before adding procs which add significant damage, on lower mitigation mobs mage pets put out HUGE damage and can outdamage a druid's nuking by itself. Add on nukes that are very similar to druids and magicians double the damage of druids or more and are looking at outdamageing wizards, in some cases by a lot. Should magicians outdamage wizards? Maybe, but by how much exactly?

Raeyne Goldenleaf
10-17-2002, 11:09 AM
/AGREE Tuved


Fayne Dethe
10-17-2002, 11:17 AM
Um mage pets are far from useless on raids. When we parse pet damage, you'd be suprised on how much extra damage they bring to a raid. If a magician has the pet hold AA ability, there is no reason to not have pets, and with the new PoP magician AA ability to keep a pre-summoned pet stored for immediate use, its even better. My guild used to always say no pets, but with the recent pet changes we welcome all classes to use their pets other than druids of course (why cause lag for 0 benefit), and enchanters only using dire charmed pets ;p. Although something odd was happening last night with pets as they seemed to die much faster than normal on High Priest, lol. So I wouldnt discount mage pet damage when comparing nukes ;p. Also, druids and mages have always been about equal in nuking power throughout original EQ and various expansions, usually with the mage bolt spell coming out ahead but their normal DD spell even with druids or a bit behind (until Luclin). The reason for this was the addition of pet damage, although until recently pets were mostly useless on mobs that did deadly AOEs.

Anyway, I think the new magician bolt is appropriate in damage and ratio, just a little too low in level. However, Winters Frost should be adjusted slightly to match closer to the 65 mage nuke.

Talyena Trueheart
10-17-2002, 11:28 AM
If your mages aren't using pets on raids then I feel for you, hehe. Mage pets alone can out damage warriors, paladins, and sk's. Mage pets simply put out too much damage to go unused and the fact that you discount them doesn't mean they don't exist.

10-17-2002, 11:40 AM
Um, Druids should never have been the number 2 nukers in game. It should have always been Wizards, Mages....then Druids.

Magicians needed to outdamage their pets before the XP changes, they now don't and they should NOT nuke as well as they do. Wizards bitch because druid nukes are too close to wizards, guess what, magicians are even closer with PoP and guess what, magicians kick a wizard's @#%$ for damage because their pet does great damage on top of their nukes.

I can't believe you people think Druids should out nuke mages. Screw mage pets. Who cares. They are useless on almost all raids so I don't even count mage pets. I have alot of mage friends who just sat on their asses on raids and make piles of rods for clerics. Now with that nerfed I'm glad to see they'll have some serious nuking to dish out.

Your mage friends suck. Sorry, but if they sat on their assess they have no clue how to play a magician. Their pet should have been doing as much damage as you were doing were you to spend ALL your mana nukeing Tuvad, and giving rods to clerics their mana was doing more healing than you could possible have done with triple your mana regen had you been healing. Aside from the obvious fact that your magicians should have simply summoned rods ahead of time for people and nuked as well doing more than twice your damage factoring in the pet.

Tilien Venator
10-17-2002, 12:11 PM
They need to make pets display their owners names.

We very rarely allow pets, to hard to tell who to bitch if someone does something wrong, too many pets have killed MW mobs due to LD or idiots f8. Just simpler to say no except in rare instances.

I know most of our moges/necro's are smart enough to handle their pets any where, but too many recruits and casual players are around sometimes to make it safe and if someone dumb does make a pet, hard to tell sometimes...

10-17-2002, 12:19 PM
Pets are a risk plain and simple. They risk aggroing getting warped through walls. and are buggy to where even some of the best pet handlers are unable to control there pets.

On boss mob fights when its just your raid on the mob providing it doesnt have a risky Gflux ae that might morph a pet into a train of death. then they are awesome and do a ton of damage.

But pets imo are very situational when it comes to raiding. single groups they rock.


10-17-2002, 12:41 PM
/pet hold and the summon pet spells negated any type of risk that the pets brought. Quite honestly if pets are not being considered in any type of dps with mages, that's like saying you shouldn't count a necro's pet as doing dmg when he's fear kiting.

In other words, calculating dps should always do best case scenario and worst case scenario. The truth is usually somewhere in between.

10-17-2002, 12:45 PM
the pet hold ability/command is an AA ability class ability thats costs like 5 points if i remember correctly? and while they are being held they are doing no damage once ordered to attack they are subject to regular pet behaviour aggro ranges etc.

at least that is my understanding of the ability. correct me if i am wrong.


Fayne Dethe
10-17-2002, 01:02 PM
I disagree here, with recent pet changes magicians can use pets on most boss mobs, people are just reluctant from old experiences. Even in situations like Shei where you cant use the pet on Shei himself, pets are useful in killing the add that appears everytime Shei DTs a person. Outside of VT (I dont have VT experience so cant say), really the only mob in Luclin I can think of where pets are completely pointless is Cursed unless the pet's owner has insane disease resist which is possible but very unlikely. Other mobs with unresistable high-damaging AOE from Velious can be a problem too like from one of the NTOV triplets, but the raid will die fast from the AOEs anyway so extra pet damage doesnt hurt matters any, and there arent that many mobs with similar AOEs (alot are partially resistable or lower damage).

However, one change I would like to really see for pets is the inclusion of them in Mass Group Buffs. I dont see much of any balance reason to keep them out of the buffing, and the extra hitpoints will always help.

10-17-2002, 03:26 PM
druid ch/fast heals/regen/ac hp buff/snare/root/evac/dot/charm and dire charm animal
mage pet/coh/focus items/nerf rods

so doesnt it make sense if...
druid nukes
mage nukes?

edit: keep in mind, druids have only been better nukers in luclin, and that was only because of mod rod 2. now that mod rod 2 is not only nerfed, but ALSO druids have been given a partial ch, mages should most definately be superior nukers over druids. i fail to see how otherwise is fair to wizards, mages, OR clerics :/

10-17-2002, 03:28 PM
Reply | Edit
In depth look at the new lucy changes...
Fire Bolt Of tallon lvl 61 EVOCATION
500 Mana, 2000 Damage.
Ratio 4.0 DPS: 285.7

Black Steel lvl 63 CONJURATION
360 Mana 1400 Damage
Ratio 3.88 DPS: 225

Sun Vortex lvl 65 CONJURATION
395 Mana 1550 Damage
Ratio 3.92 DPS: 246

LURE of thunder Wiz
378 Mana 1070 Damage
Ratio 2.83 DPS 237 (264.1) Resist ADJ -300

Draught of RO Wiz
255 Mana 950 Damage
Ratio 3.7 DPS: 316 (351) Resist ADJ -50

Agnars Thunder lvl 63 Wiz
580 Mana 2305 Damage
Ratio 3.97 DPS: 329.2 (377)

Strike of solesk Wiz
640 mana 2740 Damage
Ratio 4.2 DPS: 342.5 (380.5) Resist ADJ -10

Summers Flame Druid
350 Mana 1350 Damage
Ratio 3.8 DPS: 225 (250)

Winters Frost Druid
375 Mana 1465 Damage
Ratio 3.9 DPS: 244 (271.2)

* The Parenthesis represent the DPS of the spell with the QUICK Direct Damage AA that druids and wizards get.

From looking closely It apears mages are tied with druids in General straight up nukes. With the quick DD AA druids have a an edge in DPS but we have a slight edge in ratio. However our bolt nuke is superior to all druid nukes, Even with the AA in mind. Of course this edge is small and bolts have their normal draw backs.

Wizards keep a very big edge on everyone in DPS. As well as their high dps draught spells having a -50 resist makes them very versatile in terms of general nuking. Their lures also pack a huge dps punch.

Dont get to worked up guys, Besides the bolt you guys Tie us. With the Quick DD AA you guys still out DPS us. Mages pets put us ahead in DPS but your forgeting we give up heal/buffs/root/snare/tps for that pet, Mages are suposed to have that DPS edge the class on a whole gives up alot for it.

Mages still arent the number 2 nukers, I would call it a tie between druids and mages and I am very happy to be tied :) .

Ratio 3.8 DPS: 225 (250) Druid
Ratio 3.88 DPS: 225 Mage

Ratio 3.9 DPS: 244 (271.2) Druid nuke
Ratio 3.92 DPS: 246 Mage nuke

The DPS in these figures does not take into acount the 2.5 second gem refresh time. Both mages druids and even wizzies have this :P.

10-17-2002, 03:54 PM
When you look at Magi nukes vs other nukers First consider that most mages don't use pets on raids... only takes one slip up to completely wipe a raid, it's simply not worth the risk.

Secondly, magician's are PURE CASTERS. It should have always been Wiz > Magi > others....

Also, consider the mana cost, the dmg... and also that mages have the slowest mana regen out of all pure casters hands down. We have slower mana regen then druids heh.

Back to pets however, yes pets do a lot of dmg, but vs several end game encounters AE'ing bosses normally poof a mages pet (happened twice to me tonight) so in a Raid situation, mage pets aren't all they're cracked up to be.

Off raids, we will be able to kill things faster then we used to (or were going to be), and more effienctly.... but we still regen mana slower then any other pure caster, heh even some hybrids... so in the end it does work out.

***EDIT*** I'm not sure if Druids actually have higher mana regen, please don't take my word for it, I'm not fimilar with all of your spells. Pls for give me~

(See Noonie's post for more good reasons why Magi nukes should > druid nukes) :)

Damlyn Stormcastyr
Archmage of FenninRo

King Burgundy
10-17-2002, 04:03 PM
Looks good to me.

10-17-2002, 04:06 PM
Druids main job is to HEAL, druids can do so's about time that mages get a better nuke...why should a healer be able to outnuke a pure caster who's job is to nuke

10-17-2002, 04:18 PM
Actually, the mage's job is not to nuke, that's the wizard's job. The mage's job was the conjure, if you want to be technical about it. :)

10-17-2002, 05:20 PM
Actually a magicians job is to damage pure and simple, we are the wrecking balls of Everquest. Strong offense and weak defense is what we are supposed to be. For the druids getting all upset over us getting a better nuke remember this in the old world lev 49 we were nuking almost 200pts better than you were. At level 60 before luclin we were nuking for the same damage then you got moonfire. Now the balance is being restored your getting a better heal and we are getting better nukes, the way it should be.

You have to realize you can flip flop roles as a decent damage dealer to a decent healer and you are the only class that can do this. Damage is pretty much all we have now since the trod nerf and Verant is recognizing this.

The price you pay for being a jack of all trades is your not especially powerful in any one area.

10-17-2002, 06:45 PM
i was laughing when i read that VI wanted to make mages the damage dealers they had always intended them to be. figured it would require tweaking the damage done by their nukes too, but wow. well, i am happy for the mages in getting these changes.

so its finally settled, mages are the second best nukers with or without focus. ;)

10-17-2002, 07:21 PM
Denaeb2 said: Actually a magicians job is to damage pure and simple, we are the wrecking balls of Everquest. Strong offense and weak defense is what we are supposed to be.

Actually, again, no...
Magicians are the summoners of the arcane world, with the power to call forth everything from a loaf of bread to a huge fire elemental to fight for them. While not as adept at offensive spells as wizards, magicians still wield considerable power in this area. Magicians, like enchanters, are found among the more intelligent races and worship a variety of deities.

Like I said, you were made to be "conjurers" - you did your damage through things, a third party, if you will. Your direct damage via spells was your secondary ability.

10-17-2002, 07:53 PM
Storm, hate to point something out, but where in the EQ profile of the mage class does it not say they're damage dealers? i don't read anything about them being defensive or being healers, just that they can summon food or a powerful pet, and have "considerable power" in the area of offensive spells...

Den's comment that mages are pure offensive still holds with that discription you posted. whether it be by casting a spell or having a pet, damage is what a mage does, aside from summoning loafs of bread. :)

10-17-2002, 08:09 PM
Wrecking balls would be the wizards. Mages are more like people who set the dynamite charges :)

10-17-2002, 09:01 PM
no no, mages are the wrecking ball class! they summon their wrecking ball, Goner, and destroy things. wizards are the C4 loving boomers. /sigh you got it all backwards! :)

10-17-2002, 10:32 PM
druid ch/fast heals/regen/ac hp buff/snare/root/evac/dot/charm and dire charm animal
mage pet/coh/focus items/nerf rods

so doesnt it make sense if...
druid nukes
mage nukes?

LMAO, give it up already Noonie, magicians might buy that crap but not us. Magicians get charm with PoP, so add that. Magician's DOT is used as much as I use the crap druid DOTs so add that. Dire charm isn't even as useful as summon beer. Snare, *cough* how about something useful like Malosini? Root, evac, add good AE nukes and a butt load of pet buffs to the mage list including valiant companion, mask of mardu and the pet heals. *gasp* you think MAYBE magicians are a pet class and those actually like MATTER? *smacks head*

Doesn't it make sense to you that for spending no mana your pet can already outdamage druids and... get this... magicians are a... you following this... PET CLASS, and maybe just maybe they shouldn't also outnuke a class for which it's one of the two focuses of that class?

Actually a magicians job is to damage pure and simple, we are the wrecking balls of Everquest. Strong offense and weak defense is what we are supposed to be.

You just described wizards who... don't have a major pet, can't provide huge amounts of mana to a raid, don't have the best mob debuff in the game other than slow, don't have the best damage shield in the game and can't provide focus items. Yes, WIZARDS should outnuke druids, hell maybe even more than they do now. As for weak defence, last I checked that pretty much described all casters. If I get agro I die unless the mob is slowed.

10-18-2002, 12:14 AM
Wow L1ndara, you debate almost as well as Noonie does.

10-18-2002, 12:54 AM
With charm I can't have my pet up. And it's still not clear how many summoned things there will be in PoP. At least out of PoP, there is Hole and LDCs in SolB and thats about it. Mages don't look forward to that charm like a gamebreaking news. Same goes with summoned Mez.

Malosni/Snare/Root: I would give malosini-series away in a heartbeat for snare or root. Malosini is nice to have yes, but it in no way compares to the power of snare/root or maybe druid heals? I would give it away for even self teleports to all places you get ports.

Dire charm: I have seen efficient use of dire charm and even charm animal. For example in Maidens Eye. Druid keeping a dog charmed all the time. Adds very nice damage, much more that my pet can do.

Dots: Mages dont use the few dots we have. I dont know about druids and dots. All druids think dots are crap for you?

We still get too few pet summons. This is going to be better in PoP where we get summoned procing weapons and such. We hope those go live.

Pets: Pets are very good addition to DPS, IF THE SITUATION IS RIGHT. This means that they rock against mobs without AoE and very high AC, for example KMax, AoW, Statue.
Try using a pet at Veeshans Peak for example? See my problem? VP is old for many but PoP fights will be like this. 3000 damage PBaoes etc on bosses. In Ssra, pets dont have such great DPS because of the AC of the mobs. And as pets are so low level (49 for epic), their procs dont hit the boss mobs.

As for weak defence, last I checked that pretty much described all casters. If I get agro I die unless the mob is slowed.
Mages are the worst of ANY class in this game for defence. The 2 options we have for getting away from mobs are 1) Run (must have jboots/Sow/rspeed3 for this), 2)Gate. With specific items and AA, a third option could be 3) Summon pet fast. But the third one is not sure way because pet might not get aggro fast enough, summon pet at best is still 5,0 sec, you could get interrupted etc.
As far as I know, druids QUAD mobs. That means you really have to have some way of escaping them. If mob aggroes you, you root it and move aside. You also are a leather class and have hp and other buffs to make you thougher.

If you say druids are mainly Healers and Nukers, then mages are mainly Pet and Nukers. That summoning part is as good as your teleporting. Its nice to have, but used for utility mostly.

I personally would say druids are mainly healers and buffers, you got nuking power mostly during eras of Kunark and especially Luclin. During this time mage nukes didnt grow in power nearly as much.
With luclin we got the rod2 which really still gave us possibilty to nuke lot. Now with rod2 nerfed (from 60mana/tick to 4.2 mana/tick), Verant DID undrestand the situation and is now seemingly returning us to a 2nd best nuker spot, like we were during the First era of this game. And this spot is on hold just barely. Druids are tied with everything else than the bolt, which is harder to use than DDs.

For mages, the only thing we do at raids is the rodbuff at start, maybe a malosini (usually done by shaman though) and then DAMAGE. Pet and nukes. Wizards are far above us with nukes only, we can in right circumstances reach them in DPS with pets though. And thats the way it should be.

Druids have so much more they can do at raids and groups that they don't really need to be also 2nd best nukers in the game.
Mages give everything for damage now (after nerf of rods). We have pets, nukes and malas plus some summoned items for utility that are usable by other classes too.
I won't list what you druids can do because you know it yourself.

Sorry if I give some hard feelings here, hope I dont offend anyone too much. These were my opinions of the situation.

Dthamilaye, Archmage on Tunare.

Turrwin Trickle
10-18-2002, 02:02 AM
geez, why are you hacking on mages?

druids won't have to compete with a mage for a group/raid spot in 99% of all raids/groups. In fact, mages and druids MAKE good groups now with the pet changes for mages and heal changes for druids.

I would still cheer even if mages would outnuke me by 50%.

and all of you saying a mage should not outnuke you because he has a pet. we have charm. and if we are in the right spot we can charm a pet with 15khp quad hitting up to the 150ies.

other then that mage and druid abilities are way to different to be compared.

Turrwin Trickle

10-18-2002, 02:23 AM
Dthamilaye, you want root? We have enough root spells to share :(

Want the AE version, the single target, the single target with damage, the AE with damage, the resist modified root, the non-dmg version (new with PoP!)? For damage how much damage? We can offer you single target roots with damage ranging from 10 to 190! If that's not enough, we can, for an additional cost, add in our "AA Package" which allows you to have a chance of letting your root hold on the impact of a DD spell.

10-18-2002, 02:27 AM
We are a wrecking ball we are unwieldy and powerful. In other words we are powerful due to the combination of pets and nukes. We are unwieldy due to our pets erratic behavior at times.

Wizards are like a cruise missle launcher.

10-18-2002, 02:43 AM
Magician's DOT is used as much as I use the crap druid DOTs so add that. Dire charm isn't even as useful as summon beer.

Druids are getting some nice DoT's in PoP. When I am playing my druid/nec Root dotting is very nice and easy exp. Your right tho DoTs are not a druid main stay of power. However I have never used the magician dot, Ever.

Snare, *cough* how about something useful like Malosini?

What about your Fire debuffs? Or Ice Debuffs? No they dont equal malosini so I will give you this one, We have malosini over druids. So lets say Malosini=Snare

Root, evac, add good AE nukes and a butt load of pet buffs to the mage list including valiant companion, mask of mardu and the pet heals.

Valiant companion is also never used. Anything that AE fears will also AE dispell and remove the companion. Yes we do have nice pet buffs, Lets say they do=root/Evacs

Also, Druids in PoP are roughly equivelint in Point blank AoE's. Also Mages have no targetable AoE's. We are not good AoE'rs. I dont know where you got that info from, But its wrong. 50+ mages have One non rain AoE, And we are not getting an upgrade in PoP.

Mage pets= Druid Cheal
Mage Nukes=Druid nukes
Pet buffs=root/evac

What about HP buffs? What About castable mana regen? What about resist buffs (yours actually over write ours :P and ours are self only hehe). What about self mana regen? (As is now mages 3 druids 9). What about normal non Cheal heals? What about your Fire Debuffs or the new PoP Ice debuff? What about regen?

Lind, Mages are not making this up :P, My Wife is a druid I have no need nor desire to see druids nerfed. However mages give up ALOT of things druids have for the simple ability to do damage. That Damage is all we have, We cant root/snare/TP/heal/buff/regen we do Nukes, Pets, Some summons (wich normally just help damage :P).....Like what was said above, If your healers/Nukers...The we are Pet summoners/nukers.

Besides as stated in my earlier post, The new nukes dont surpass druid nukes. We are effectivly Tied for second. With the Addition of druidic Ch's I dont think being tied for second place with a nuking/pet caster is all that bad.

10-18-2002, 03:43 AM
It's not worth getting bent out of shape over guys. It's surprising it's a level 61 nuke, but I don't know the difficulty of actually implementing a bolt nuke, so....<shrug>.

However, I take exception to the alteration druids on this board telling me I'm not a damage dealer. And just because I'm a priest then all int casters should outdamage me.

Just because we got a heal, don't assume the rest of us evoc druids are gonna suddenly switch to the dark side of healing. You don't speak for me and just because your version of a druid is different than mine, don't think yours is right.


10-18-2002, 03:58 AM
I have to say that it doesn't offend me in the least that a pure caster is a better nuker than me.

That being said, I don't want a general decrease in overall druid power, cuz I felt like we just got some parity finally.

But gosh, I'm sick of arguing.

Yay druids, yay mages.

Let's go kill some stuff now.

10-18-2002, 04:13 AM
Mages and Wizzards are the major nuking classes. We are close, we are a f*cking utility class so stop whining.

Saurin CoTG
10-18-2002, 04:38 AM
I am still a bit surprised that anyone is really pitching a fit over this. It seems like such a non issue. I have never given a wit about being labeled the "second best nuker." Does it really matter? The DD spells are comparable. You can parse and post efficiency numbers until you are blue in the face, but any differences are negligible. Bolts have always had better dmg/mana ratios than comparable DD, due to the limitations place upon them. Given the changes made to druid healing, and with the new spells being proposed for druids in PoP, I really don't see why these numbers pose any problems.

Druids are currently a strong class, and will continue to be so in PoP. I am thrilled at the prospect that mages will be as well.

10-18-2002, 04:39 AM
Now we have seen druids jumping up and down screaming "WE ARE PRIESTS" pointing at their own chest for so long that VI caved in and gave them more priest power.

Druids are happy with this change (apart from those who are never happy about anything = trolls = something every class has).

Now... why are some druids suddenly jumping up and down pointing at their chest saying "WE ARE NUKERS"?

I think mum has been feeding the child too many cookies lately. Time to teach the kid not to expect a chocolate chip cookie every time they come home from school.

King Burgundy
10-18-2002, 04:47 AM
Its because of our diversity. Some druids play as nukers, some play as priests. ;)

<--I play as both.

Some were bitching about our nukes in PoP, now they have been upgraded beyond what most were asking for.....imho, looks good to me based on that at least.

10-18-2002, 05:24 AM
Grats mages,
now please summon me a nuke bracer and lets kill stuff ;)


Ellendilh Silvermist
10-18-2002, 05:33 AM
Now... why are some druids suddenly jumping up and down pointing at their chest saying "WE ARE NUKERS"?
The following poll should answer your question : (

Evocation druids are primarily nukers (with some healing), alteration druids are primarily healers (with some nuking).

Basically, 50/50.

Personally, I am evoc, and I don't care if mages get a better spell than I do. Usually, in a group or in a raid, it is to hit the same target, so it's all good.

10-18-2002, 05:59 AM
With the nerf to rods, mages need a way to get involved. With the perceived/actual problems with pets, mages *should* be able to nuke well. I have no problems with being the 3rd best nuker. Hopefully, my versatility increases my desirability that people are glad to have along the 3rd best nuker. Besides, one of our DoT's in pop piles the damage on so fast that it should almost be considered a nuke :P A 1440 damage dot in 36 secs? That's one that you can toss on a mob and generally expect to get full damage.

GO MAGES! I have zero problem with their nuking ability.

Supporting Karana on Fennin Ro for 53 seasons

10-18-2002, 06:10 AM
/em quietly points at the -50 resist modifier on Winter's Storm--the best resist modifier on any rain other than the Wizard Lure. That alone makes Winter's Storm a very usable spell.

/em notes the potential (albeit remote) to crit 5100 points of damage between the three waves of the rain.

Sure it's a situational nuke, but it's still a mighty good one. I think it will compare reasonably to Firebolt of Tallon.

Tuved Stormrunner
10-18-2002, 06:44 AM
I'm an evocation druid with SCF3. I pretty much outnuke everyone but wizards in my guild atm. I think the PoP druid nukes look great and I'm happy about the mage upgrades. So what if I take the 3rd rank in the nuking department. Gratz mages :)

10-18-2002, 07:00 AM
Raids aren't the whole freaking game Tuved. There's grouping and soloing to consider when you look at class balance and each one's various advantages. If they keep jacking up mages pretty soon they're going to create yet another "team" problem like existed with wizards and their manaburn. Look at the big picture, not just a snapshot.

There's one good thing that may come of this. Maybe the wizards will start to bash one of their fellow INT caster classes now(that being mages) about their nuking skill instead of druids since we will be only third best nukers. Congrats us.

10-18-2002, 07:11 AM
Personally I think the nerf bat needs to be fired up again. Winter's Fury should be deleted from the PoP lineup.

You might start whining and ask why? Its simple. Druids are too powerful. Druids should have been a more generalist class. Look at what you have:nukes, ports, buffs, heals mobility buffs(SoW), damage shields...etc

Mages: great pets,nice nukes, summoned and focus items
Wizards : nukes, ports

Put the crack pipe away. Where should be no way that druids should even come close to wizards or mages. YOU ARE NOT SPECIALISTS. It wouls be like like asking for dual weild for my SK. Its just like the thread you guys had on here about Manaburn and CH. You got Cheal what else do you want?

I agree with many of the mage upgrades. They need it after the big Mod Rod nerf. In comparing wizard to mages the main difference is sustained, consistent DPS. It does kinda suck for low level wizards though. Mage nukes are damn close in dps/mana with wizard nukes.

VI already hit monks with their nerf. Now its time for druids to line up.

Physic has rez
10-18-2002, 07:24 AM
>There's grouping and soloing to consider when you look at class balance and each one's various advantages

i'd be rather careful bout discussing solo capacity, considering a lot of classes have little to none.

10-18-2002, 07:25 AM
Good summary of info, but I believe that Mages should get the edge on druids nuke-wise. The shaft on druids is our joke of a dot. Our luclin nukes are a little "top heavy", so I'me not surprised the upgrade was a light one.

10-18-2002, 08:10 AM
There's a difference between balance and utter domination. Druid nukes are fine where they are in relation to those of Mages and Wizards. They require neither nerfage nor further enhancement.

Tuved Stormrunner
10-18-2002, 08:29 AM
Raids aren't the whole freaking game Tuved. There's grouping and soloing to consider when you look at class balance and each one's various advantages.

Um, really? Wow grouping and soloing had never occured to me before. /boggle. Let me help you understand. These are PoP ugrades. there will be no soloing. Any mages with these abilities will be what? level 63 64? They won't be soloing in the old (light blue) world and most likely won't be soling at all, and neither will any druids who are high enough level to even care about these post 60 upgrades. Hell even if I could solo in PoP I wouldn't. If I wanted to solo, I'd play my PS2 not everquest. In case you hadn't noticed, soloing sucks. 2nd, I've never had to compete with mages before for groups and this won't change anything.

Oh and Tyrrax, go Troll somwhere else you stupid @#%$. You should spend more time leveling up rather than trying to sound intelligent.

10-18-2002, 08:40 AM
You might start whining and ask why? Its simple. Druids are too powerful. Druids should have been a more generalist class. Look at what you have:nukes, ports, buffs, heals mobility buffs(SoW), damage shields...etc

Begone, Troll.

But I will humor you with yet another fact-filled explanation as to why Druids are not overpowered.

1) Top-tier guilds still do not desire Druids. Most of them have a Druid Main representation of 5% or less. There are other classes that fall into this category, but if Druids were truly overpowered all the top guilds would be flinging their doors wide open. They're not.

2) High efficiency xp groups rarely desire Druids. This one is not as cut-and-dried, but I think most of us know that the most efficient xp grinds prefer specialist classes. A CT group is looking for DD/evac....will they pick a Wizard or a Druid? A Ssra group is looking for healer/buffer....will they pick a Cleric or a Druid? A UP group is looking for a buffer/damage reducer....will they pick a Shaman or a Druid? Granted, Druids can sometimes play these roles (depending on gear and experience) but they will not supplant other classes from these roles. Druids shine when you get a non-traditional group of folks together where lots of small roles need to be filled or maybe specialty classes aren't available.

3) Soloing. Yes, Druids can solo from 1-60 using a variety of different methods. Druids are not the best solo class in the game. Shaman, Necro, Mage, Wizard, Monk (pre-nerf; don't know post-nerf) can all solo extremely well at high levels, probably better than Druids in terms of speed and efficiency (though I've never played a high level Necro or Shaman). We can solo in several different WAYS, but that does not mean we're better or faster.

4) "Look at what you have:nukes, ports, buffs, heals mobility buffs(SoW), damage shields...etc"
Nukes -- we're #3
Ports -- With Kunark we were one of 2 classes that could port; now players have Gate potions, Faithstones, the Nexus Ports, Firepots, PoP Knowledge Plane. How has our "power" increased in this area?
Buffs -- On raids, I (when needed) cast CoS and PoTC/G to a few select casters. Our buffs are decent, but hardly overwhelming.
SoW -- Run3, JBoots, SoW pots; if you're 51+ and running at normal speed there's a problem

Ok, so there you have it tyrrax. Feel free to respond, but I have seriously low expectations after the lack of coherent reasoning in your previous post.
Magelo Profile (

10-18-2002, 08:43 AM
Who says soloing won't be a factor? Do you have PoP yet? Besides, there will still be plenty of places to solo where the mobs are still blue I'm sure.

Mages shouldn't nuke second best, sorry. They have pets. If you want to take away pets to make a point about balance then take away the other classes' abilities and spells in certain situations too. Taking pets out of the equation doesn't fly.

10-18-2002, 08:46 AM
Tyrrax is a troll, and as such we shouldn't feed him. I understand it's hard to resist the temptation though. :) When you see an idiot, sometimes you just can't help but stop and stare.


Tuved Stormrunner
10-18-2002, 08:46 AM
Who cares about soloing and yes mages should nuke second best. Druids certainly should NOT.

10-18-2002, 08:49 AM
There's a difference between balance and utter domination. Druid nukes are fine where they are in relation to those of Mages and Wizards. They require neither nerfage nor further enhancement.
I'm inclined to agree, though empirical evidence (i.e. playing) will make up my mind.
Magelo Profile (

10-18-2002, 08:56 AM
These I think are in line with what was intended for classes. Im glad to get any upgrade I can. We druids will never nuke like mages and mages will never nuke like wizards at least at the higher end of things, but that I believe is the essence of our respective classes.
Dont get me wrong I would love one really high dmg nuke but at the same time I realize its just not gonna happen.

Talyena Trueheart
10-18-2002, 09:24 AM
I still believe the best nuke for both classes is an ancient nuke, and if Luclin goes the way of other high end content after expansions, the ancient spells won't be that hard to get. Don't be suprised if by this time next year (or sooner), guilds in NToV right now are farming VT. I also wouldn't be suprised if the ancient spells are dropped by some of the PoP boss mobs as well.

Oh ya, the druid ancient nuke is better than the mage ancient nuke.

10-18-2002, 09:47 AM
Wow L1ndara, you debate almost as well as Noonie does.
Goldadus, im getting awfully tired of your passive aggressive attacks.

If you have a problem with me, say it openly.

10-18-2002, 10:39 AM
I'm happy mages are being brought back in line with their pre-Kunark nukes.

I mostly duo with an epic mage. The pet is extremely useful. Possibly not so much in certain raids, but in xp groups they completely own.

Once PoP hits the shelves, we'll be able to kick major a$$. Gratz Mages!!

Wyte Psycnosis
60 Dooid - Rallos Zek

10-18-2002, 12:05 PM
I have no idea on what source of Universal truth Tuved has found, but I personally see nothing wrong with Mages or Druids being "#2" in nukes. Who cares? Druid nukes and Mage nukes have always been fairly close to each other. They still are.

10-18-2002, 12:13 PM
A lot of people care about soloing. Druids should nuke second best and mages should NOT. How many times do you want to go around this tree?

Tuved Stormrunner
10-18-2002, 01:10 PM
Well we're going to be #3 and it's YOU who are going to have to deal with it.

Raeyne Goldenleaf
10-18-2002, 01:40 PM
Grats Mages, grats druids on better nukes. So we are they might be slightly better at it, or we might be does it really matter...NO Wizards are the kings of DD's and that is what matters. Druids and mages both are nuking classes with a secondary ability. Ours is healing, theirs is pets.

/shrug considering how great my class is now I am happy for both classes as it was an upgrade.

Whether or not I am second or third best nuker will not make a group take me any better or worse. I am an evocation druid and I enjoy nuking more then healing. I except the limitation of my dualabiltiy as healer/nuker.

As for soloing, the nukes as they stand now more then aid that in their current form and comparing to mages over soloing is apples and oranges anyway, since we solo in different ways thus use our nukes in different ways. Soloing druids are quadders or root/rotters anyway...and if rooting you are not doing massive nuking that fast since root tends to break with a DD.

And I agree with Tuved.

~edit...seems my thoughts got a head of my typing...~

10-18-2002, 02:39 PM
Tuved, remind me to undercut any improvements you want for healing in the future....:P

10-18-2002, 04:25 PM
God forbid that another class can do something better then a druid let alone a class that has spent the last two expansions been nothing but mana rod whores ...

Been invited into guilds to be mana rod whores been invited onto raids to be mana rod whores..

10-18-2002, 04:46 PM
The problem is that mage historically were NOT better DDers than druids. See my thread on the main page dispelling this myth, which some in this thread appear to believe.

Mages get their DDs a few levels earlier than druids, but druid DDs do a little more damage for the same mana. PoP breaks this. I'm not saying mages shouldn't get their new DDs, but the druid DDs should match them.

And that doesn't hurt mages or druids, now, does it?

10-18-2002, 05:43 PM
I don't have to deal with anything because if I don't like it I will just quit. I hope you sing the same tune when we start dropping in rank even more.

Caudex Lifesupport
10-19-2002, 11:05 AM
Pre kunark mages were better nukers in general. Its kind of absurd really anyhow, druids priest, mages nuker, its pretty much that simple. If you want you can say well we're a jack of all trades. Well jack they're a specialist nukes are the only significant spell they cast after they have a pet up. I'd tend to think thats more indicative of where they are supposed to be than all the wildly skewed mayhem that followed each installment of EQ. Beyond that, they cant cast cold nukes, typically the least resisted nuke near as I can tell. If its fire resistant they have to use magic, ie the most resisted flavor of nuke. If it requires cold nukes they can send in the pet and heal it for 900hps/400mana, while the druid first debuffs it to accept whatever nuke theyd like to toss and then blasts merrily. Yes they have malosini, pretty sure that and ro's stacks, if I'm wrong I'd like to know. Mage ae's are massively resisted, all 3 waves on a blue mob isnt a rare thing. In CT I watched the 55 druid hit for all 3 waves most of the time, blizzard, while the 60 mage got 1 or 2 waves for a while and then just said scew it. If I were a mage I'd trade you happily right now straight up probably.

10-19-2002, 12:51 PM
Pre kunark mages were better nukers in general.

Bzzzt....wrong. Take a look at the DD numbers. The best you can say for mages is that they are tied with druids as far as DD power. We received the same starting nuke, and in general, mages got their nuke a few levels earlier than druids, while druids got the matching nuke (same mana cost) but with slightly more damage. Pre-Kunark, druids at 50 maintained this slight DD edge (612 damage vs. 600 damage).

That's the DDs. If you want to drag in the other aspects of nuking, then you can consider mages to have the upper hand with bolts (which have the LOS restriction), but druids more than counter this with their targeted AoEs. I think mages have better rains, but we have better PBAEs.

Thus, overall, mages and druids have been, and should remain, tied for second-best nukers.

As for the "priest" distinction, you can be a healing, peaceful Tunare worshipper if you want, but a druid is a NATURE priest. I worship the DESTRUCTIVE side of nature. Hurricanes, tornadoes, volcanoes, wildfires, floods, tidal waves, hailstorms, thunderstorms, blizzards, etc.....get the picture?

In other words, I ought to be hell on wheels as far as nuking/damage dealing goes! Don't try to stick your "priests aren't supposed to nuke" bumper sticker on my rear end...:)

BTW, no one seriously claims that druids are supposed to be the jack of all trades. Verant never said so. And we never were. It's a hangover from some beta type who used the term when he described the class on some webpage. Like most other classes, we do some things very well, some things moderately well, and some things pretty badly.

Oh, and it's not as simple as saying "druid priest, mage nuker." I can say with as much justification: "druid nuker, mage pet owner." It's just as true.

10-19-2002, 10:33 PM
Sciroco I would have you look at your own thread. At many lvls druids are far inferrior to mages nuke wise pre-kunark. At the end of it all druids end up a whopping 12points of damage ahead cause mages get a bolt instead of a nuke. Now look at these numbers druids are a whopping what 80points behind a mage? Are you so upset by that measly little damage? Looking at the big picture this means little or nothing really as proven by the dps numbers(172 for druids and 175 for mages). Which can easily be made up for by booboo if you really wanted to and blown away by circling in the new dot.

And to those who say mages shouldnt nuke second best due to pets, Well i will say druids shouldnt due to heals AND dots. So in the end they work out near the same as i see it at least and the numbers prove it to be true.

And one more thing, those of you who are screaming bloody muder due to that bolt would be wise to also check out sciroccos thread where it becomes plainly obvious that pre-kunark mages mopped the floor with druids damagewise.

Znail vh
10-20-2002, 12:04 AM
Quote by Scirocco:
Take a look at the DD numbers. The best you can say for mages is that they are tied with druids as far as DD power. We received the same starting nuke, and in general, mages got their nuke a few levels earlier than druids, while druids got the matching nuke (same mana cost) but with slightly more damage.
What is shown in that thread is that magicians gets their upgrades earlier. Druids end up with with a higher maximum, but by that time the magician has already gotten an upgrade. There are a few levels when druids catch up the level before magicians gets an upgrade.Over all the tendancy is very clear in favor of magicians as illustrated by this nice table by Denaeb2:

Magician Druid
16 91 35
17 92 35
18 93 35
19 95 91
20 97 93
21 97 95
22 97 97
23 97 99
24 158 99
25 160 99
26 164 99
27 168 99
28 172 99
29 176 171
30 176 174
31 176 176
32 176 178
33 176 180
34 276 182
35 280 182
36 284 182
37 288 182
38 292 182
39 295 282
40 295 286
41 295 290
42 295 294
43 295 298
44 580 302
45 584 302
46 588 302
47 592 302
48 596 302
49 600 612
Magician DDs of these levels do an average 38% more damage then Druid DDs.

10-20-2002, 05:28 AM
It's funny that I get accused of twisting numbers, where my opponents blatantly leave out levels where druid DDs are superior to mage DDs in damage. I already pointed out the deficiencies in the above analysis, but I'll do so again here. It probably would be better to limit these posts to the analytical thread, though.

If we were unlimited in levels, I would be happy with druids getting their slightly better matching nuke a few levels after mages. But when you look at where they "end up," i.e., where they are when they reach the max level, then Druids end up on top, pretty clearly. That is undeniable.

If you want to look at the number of levels that mages have a better DD than druids, let's do the counting. Looking at numbers given us, I see 27 levels where mages have their DD with better damage than the druid (I counted the ones where the mage nuke was as low as two points better). That's 27 out of 60 levels, folks. That's less than half the levels in the game, for those poor in math. The 1-10 and 51-60 levels might have a level or two where mages did more damage, so let's say 30 out of 60 levels, as an estimate. Only half the levels in the game.

Furthermore, that's not the best way to look at that: look at time spent playing the game. How long did you play at those levels where the mage DD did more damage than the druid DD? How long have you played at level 49 or above?

For me, the latter is easy, since I reached 49 after 6 months. Over 85% of my playing time has been at 49 or above. Now, using the 50% "level" number above, half of the remaining 15% my DD was the equal (or better) of the mage DD (assuming same time played per level).

So, for 92.5% of my playing time, my druid DD has been doing more damage than the mage DD.

I'm not really upset about mages getting their new DDs. It gives me the opportunity to boost my own DDs to match. And that's the whole point of my argument. Showing the relationship between the "pure" DDs for mages and druids, and pointing out that the PoP DDs reverse it.

10-20-2002, 06:00 AM
We can go back and forth with this I can show real numbers and then you can come back and show your ignorance I really dont care anymore. Most Mages point to pre kunark not post kunark where we were the second best NUKERS and post Kunark we are better NUKERS till the high 50s unless bolts arent considered by you to be nukes either.

Now you say it doesnt matter where we are but where we end up, that cool because we end up being better NUKERS than you at 65 too according to the spell data. Eventually your point is going to become moot because you cant take one part of a class on try to balance it by the past, we learned that in Kunark your going learn it in PoP.

We could get into a big long balance discussion but really the numbers really show what class has more desirability. Number of Druids is much bigger than the number of Magicians on any server. I really think its tough to show how underpowered you are compared to Magicians when there are 10 druids to every 1 magician.

Belkram Marwolf
10-20-2002, 08:04 AM
They are called Healing spells, ports, snares, evacs, regens, buffs, and evac. Your range of abilities FAR exceeds theirs. This entire thread is griping about another class getting an upgrade. Something Druids complained about FEROCIOUSLY when they were getting the upgrades. I cant see where you even have a leg to stand on here.

Mages get a pet, DS, Rods (nerfed HARD), and nukes. They are a damage dealing class. They SHOULD be good at it.

I still cant believe you guys are griping over someone getting an upgrade after how up in arms you were when the tables were reversed.

Belkram Marrwolf

10-20-2002, 09:02 AM
Belk, your reading comprehension has dropped a few points.

I am not complaining about mages getting a boost to their DD damage. Far from it. I just want my matching DDs to match, the same way they always have (except for the past two years when my DDs have clearly been better, but I'll settle for parity, not superiority).

In fact, if you read what I said, I'm supporting a reduction in the recast time for the mage DDs. I'm the mage's best friend as far as pushing for improvements to their DDs.

Arguing that the druid DDs should be boosted in damage and mana to match the new PoP mage DDs is not a request that the mage DDs should be nerfed in any way, shape or manner.

P.S. I am a nature priest, and as such, I AM a damage dealer, first and foremost. It still surprises me to see the myopic view some folks have of druids as being primarily healers...even druids. The schizophrenic nature of the nurture vs. nuker split has already been well established. Must be the oxygen deprivation from having their heads up Tunare's skirts....:)

10-20-2002, 03:20 PM
Heh, just like to point out... at 56 when clerics get Judgement they become the third best nuker in the game based on mana:damage. They're behind... beastlords, who outnuke everyone but wizards with their 3:1 PoP nuke line until druids get their better than 3:1 at 57. Magicians don't break 3:1 until 59 with their bolt. =)

Clearly VI doesn't care a whole lot about relative class nuking ability on a by-level basis.

1 wizard
2 bst
3 cleric
4 druid
5 magician

1 wizard
2 druid
3 bst
4 magician
5 cleric

1 wizard
2 enchanter (rare spell)
3 druid
4 bst
5 magician
6 cleric

1 wizard
2 druid/magician
3 enchanter (rare spell)

1 wizard
2 druid
3 magician

10-21-2002, 02:53 AM
Druid- Nuke/heal/SvC, SvF debuff/atk AC debuff/DS/situational SVC and SVF buffs
Mages- Nuke/pet/clicky nukes/malo/rods(still slightly useful)/DS+svF
Mages will easily have more sustained DPS in any 5+ min fight due to mana free damage from pets + clicky nukes + normal nukes.
Druids can heal like half a cleric(without group heals and HoTs), and nuke well, snare is not needed on raids, neither is root(IMO mages deserve some type of root), SoW/ports have nothing to do with raiding, our nuking is fine but no reason why it should be behind mages since their pets are great for sustained DPS.

Belkram Marwolf
10-21-2002, 07:22 AM
Long cast, long recast. Piss poor mana efficiency. MR only.

Double-resist check stuns are the ONLY offense Clerics have to back that up with. Please. Dont even go into our nuking capabilities. Trying to make a case for us being too powerful of a nuker at any level is just pathetic.

Belkram Marrwolf

Silverblade the Enchanter
10-21-2002, 09:58 AM
HTML Comments are not allowed

10-21-2002, 10:29 AM
Ignorant comments are not allowed either. :p

10-21-2002, 10:41 AM
Well the entire point is moot now because druids got there dd spells increased. Now they nuke equal to a mage but for 5mana less it seems which is fine by me. Bolts are direct damage spells and when it comes down to who can nuke a single target with the most damage/mana savings a mage wins. Fire Bolt of Tallon is 2k dd which will do a max crit for 4800 with focus items. Considering that will all your dots stacked (which cost you mana to cast except for epic/thurg bracer), you factor in casting time ect...can't even do more damage then GV Water, I am fine with the way things are.

Pre-Kunark mages got there dd spells before druids and when druids did get a better dd the following level mages received a bolt that was by far more damage then the druid nuke. So IMO things are back to the way they were pre-kunark. Mages will be the most damaging class in EQ again. Considering that we get new procing weapons, improve haste buffs, and summoned items in PoP which will help the epic pet reach near 95ish dps on experience mobs I am ok with the change. My epic pet can do 80dps against UP mobs now. So with the upgrades it will be over 90dps which is mana free for the mage once summoned and can last for hours.

Mages get free focus items that will work on spells scaling up to 65 while druids will have to buy theirs. I think instead of focusing on spells we should focus on who can do the most damage to a single target. IMO rains should be single target spells since they are almost never used against more then one target. Even with moonfire mage rains pre-PoP are superior to druid normal dd spells. The same will hold true in PoP. Mages will have two rains which are superior to all druid damage spells and rains and are not limited to outdoor only. When it comes to who can kill a mob the fastest and who can do the most damage to a single target indoor or outdoor, mages win hands down through all expansions.

60 Arch Mage
Master of the Orb