eqcleric.gameglow.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11729 (http://eqcleric.gameglow.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11729)


Apparently our grouping desirability is fixed because 6 druid DoT stacking groups can do so much damage. We're not supposed to be part of a normal group, we're supposed to all form 6 druid groups. Yeah right. No thanks clerics.

Heh...it is ok if we are unwanted so long as we can all be unwanted together...is that it?

Some people shouldnt take drugs.

Don't forget that DG is a druid propaganda machine that isn't tolerant of cleric points of view and they are first flamed, then banned, and then their posts are deleted so no one can read the truth. And of course, EQClerics is totally tolerant of others points of views and a utopian paradise of fair mods and posters. At least that is pretty much what I was told.







BTW, for those of you with no sense of humor don't stick your foot in your mouth quoting my post as anything other than an exaggeration.

I would take the time to read the whole thing but a few of these guys are a bit loony. I agree with clerics should be able to solo undead and get reasonable xp out of it.... assuming c3. I disagree that clerics should have an assured position in all groups and druids are regarded as suplanting(sp) their place in every frigging group. As a matter of fact, i take a bit of offense to the notion every group has to have a cleric.

I disagree that clerics should have an assured position in all groups and druids are regarded as suplanting(sp) their place in every frigging group. As a matter of fact, i take a bit of offense to the notion every group has to have a cleric.

Stay far away from EQClerics then, because that is their battle call, their be all end all, etc.

Lol, yep, there are 15 classes, and only 6 people can be in any one group, clerics want a guarantee that THEY are in every group. Well, guess what, with 15 different classes, NO single class should be in EVERY group.

They aren't saying they should be in every group. They just think they should be in every group in the harder zones that now have the boosted experience. They are willing to let us be main healers in any zone in which a warrior can solo.

I think they should increase the group size to 15 and make a rule that no single group can have 2 of the same class. =D

Then make several hard high level xp places give xp bonuses to a 15 person group. /snicker.

Also, what the clerics dont seem to understand, is that druids are NOT bitching about wanting more nukes, etc. We are bitching because we are supposed to get an approx 3k heal, and we havent got it. VI SPECIFICALLY said that they were giving the clerics the hammer/pet to allow them to solo, in order to compensate for the heals druids/shamen were going to get. We didnt get them--clerics got their compensation, yet we didnt get the heals. Nothing is being said about the heals, who knows if they will be implemented in the next 6 months. I hope they are, but Ill continue to complain till they put the heals in.

I recently have been totally disgusted by the hatred against druids while reading a post on my server board where clerics were listing all the great advantages they recently got (solo, new heals, ragefire) and the conclusion was that no cleric had any reason to be mad anymore... AS LONG AS druids were not getting any new healing upgrade(s). Disgusting. I don't even want to read what could be said on EQ Clerics...

I can understand some of their fears though. The way experience was going before the boost, it was better to group or just duo or even solo in much easier places instead of running the risks of the harder zone. A mix and match group could get almost as much experience as a well balanced group going to a harder zone. That has changed now, and clerics can solo (although they might actually have to go out and get some soloing equipment now), and they like it this way. One of the main complaints from a cleric on test was the lack of random tells for groups in zones like CT from total strangers. They aren't used to having to look for groups like that. They don't realize that the rest of us don't get random tells like that all the time. My warrior probably averages one a month to come tank in some tougher zone, but my druid has received one random tell all year for a group, and that was a pit group in velks that needed a way out and I was in GD at the time. It may be that they just don't realize how good they do have it at times and really fear the change that competition will bring.

I also think many of them bring up soloing in hopes that we will say they we don't want them to solo as well as us because many of them don't want that either and would rather use the solo card as a reason druids shouldn't be given significant improvements in healing. I actually wish VI would just give clerics a self only 100pt damage shield so the soloing argument could be thrown out the window and be done with it.

Notice clerics play up the DoT groups, while the druids here downplay them to a large degree. Somewhere in the middle is the truth. Get your DoT groups going tonight, and judge for yourself what the truth is.

Fairweather Pure

I'm sure DoT groups work but honestly I want to interact and have a strong contribution to regular groups. I really don't want to group with 5 other druids.

A dot group is just a group of six druids doing six times the damage a single druid could do solo. There is no way it could be anything more than that. Quadding is more efficient that root rotting, so why don't you get your group of druids together and group quad insted of group root rotting?

Actually, I also got one of the only random (i.e. non-friend) tells from a group that flamed out in the pit in Velks.

I was in GD ... they didn't invite me to come group with 'em (I asked, since it was so unusual). They just wanted a rescue. "You're our only hope!" (shades of Help me Obi-Wan!) They also said they couldn't describe how to get to the pit, and that I should ask someone else in the zone to lead me there (I'm HORRIBLE with directions). Oh yeah, and "Please bring a cleric to rez us."

I hope they eventually got someone to help 'em.

D

The quading thing does not work. A wizard friend and I tried it and it never worked out right. As soon as the second person casts a nuke, at least one of the mobs will peel off and head to them. If you could get it down (really not possible) so that all nukers were in essentially the same place at all times, then it might work.

The DoT group, btw, is more than 6 times a single druid root/dotting. In fact, I think they are not really effectively usuable on the same creatures. The Group dotting can be used to take down bigger mobs that a single Druid would have difficulty with. The ability to heal the person summoned, to be able to refresh root, etc., distiquishes the 6 Druid group from 6 soloing druids. They might theorethically be the same, but reality is that Dot groups are going to be more effective against high-level, high HP, summoners and soloing or duing is going to be more effective against lots of low dark blues (of course, if you are in the right place - a place with more low dark blues than you could ever hadle solo, like toiler hill - you can take advantage of the grouping bonus and "solo" with other Druids or dotters all in one group, but that is no different from before the patch).

Could some cleric have looked at this thread:

pub13.ezboard.com/fthedruidsgrovefrm30.showMessage?topicID=185.topic (http://pub13.ezboard.com/fthedruidsgrovefrm30.showMessage?topicID=185.topic )

..... and then run back screaming to EQclerics saying "Druids call for nerfs on CH!!!"

Yep. Would it solve anything? Nope.

So why are you doing it, Tuved?

Um, Lyria there are 10 pages of Clerics just flaming druids on the thread I linked. Your analogy isn't valid simply because the reciprocal hasn't happened on DG. We have no general flame Clerics theads. In your Cheal nerf thread (which was started by a cleric btw), essentially every druid said it was a stupid idea. In the thread I linked every cleric took the opportunity as usual to flame druids and say that druids should be happy that DoT groups are so wonderful.

Could some cleric have looked at this thread:

pub13.ezboard.com/fthedruidsgrovefrm30.showMessage?topicID=185.topic

..... and then run back screaming to EQclerics saying "Druids call for nerfs on CH!!!"

Yep. Would it solve anything? Nope.

They could, but then they would look as silly as you did for not reading this part by the original poster.

btw. In case you missed it above, I am a Cleric. I don't even have a Druid twink. I have had the pleasure of using my brothers 58 Druid on occasion, but mostly just to port for raids and such. I usually killed him whenever I got cocky and though I could actually kill something.

Aaeamdar, I have a DoT group set up tonight with 3 druids so far. I welcome you to join us. I'm hoping to grap a couple of guild necros as well and throw them into the mix. I'll be on at 6 EST.

Fairweather Pure

The average cleric ch does less then 3K hp, very rare I heal more then that. You guys love to act like were healing 8K at a throw but thats just retarded. So, a 3K heal would put you dead even with all clerics as far as healers, that's the problem.

While it's good for you it sucks for us. While you were out quadding specs and porting yourself all over the world we were walking without sow from zone to zone begging for ports to get our corpse, stuck in bad groups and zones and generally had very few options.

I have played a druid to 54 and it was fun. But getting a cleric to 56 was not at all fun, it was a terrible grind that I will never do again.

I can understand your frustration but what you are asking is to replace clerics. If you get your way the cleric class will be reduced to rez bots.

And this is another stupid thread by druids about clerics?

In the end, every class has asses that post on boards and ask for far more than they should and complain about things they have no right to. All the pundits notice this rabid vocal minority over a more moderate and reasonable majority.

The crux of the matter is that Druids and Clerics overlap and do not stack well in most normal groups. Once you have a healer capable of handling the healing duties of a group, then you don't need any other healer. This is the same issues for a Tank (the warrior complaint). Sustained damage dealers like rogues and monks stack very well. The root of the issue is that while healing may overlap, once a healer is in the group, additional characters of similar archetypes (priest, melee, robe caster, hybrid) but of different classes should be able to contribute to the group such that they are a desired addition. For example Shamans don't have the same issues stacking with other healers because they bring enough "other skills" to the group to be a valuable addition without healing. Druids non-healing abilities should be able to do the same for them, which it currently isn't. Once Druids and Shamans can supply all the healing needed for a group (and they should be able to), Clerics should then also have non-healing abilities to be desierable in a group as a non-healer as well.

VI's ideas about soloability, class interdependence and balancing based upon "balanced groups" and not upon individual classes should go out the window. Every class should be "balanced" to have an equal ability to solo and group. For soloing when someone is not able to get a group, different classes should be inclined to go to different zones and fight different mobs. As well everyone should be able to contribute unique abilities to a group such that they can get a group when they want to. If VI wants to encourge grouping, then promote it by meathods similar to the group exp bonus. Once every class is "differently abled" they should then balance the group oriented mobs against the "balanced groups of balanced characters".

Without fixing the healer stacking issue, most reasonable Clerics really don't mind druids and shamans getting better heals. Its just that if Clerics can't get groups because VI can't think of ways for Druids and Clerics to stack in a group then they should have the ability to do some sort of soloing which they don't have currently in any efficient form, though that appears to be changing (albeit in a fashion that most clerics didn't want).

Edit - Once they balance things based upon a "balanced group", then unless their balanced group wasn't very good, that group makeup will become the defacto standard cookie cutter group that everyone will want to be in. If they didn't balance based upon their ideal "balanced group" then perhaps people would be more willing to form non-standard groups.

So, a 3K heal would put you dead even with all clerics as far as healers

ROFL


Mooky=Troll

Yea, I'd love to see how a 6 druid group does in the new CT with all our "mana free dots".

/boggle

Fairweather,
I would love to, if not tonight sometime soon. Please email me about it at aaeamdar@yahoo.com. I am actually moving tonight, so I will not be on all that early - I will guess 9-10 Eastern tonight, but if things go poorly, that might have to be extended. If I can hook up with you all at that point, that would be great. If not tonight, though, I would love to join in sometime soon.

The average cleric ch does less then 3K hp, very rare I heal more then that.

Haha, I play a warrior and it isn't often in an experience group that I get CHed for LESS than 3k, and those are usually end of the fight heals that are around 3kish because it is still more mana efficient than any other heal that anyone has. What is more common is when I am getting hit for over 4k on a CH.

While you were out quadding specs and porting yourself all over the world we were walking without sow from zone to zone begging for ports to get our corpse, stuck in bad groups and zones and generally had very few options.
Boo hoo...I can have any group in any zone I want but I have to walk there...god forbid.
I can understand your frustration but what you are asking is to replace clerics. If you get your way the cleric class will be reduced to rez bots.
As opposed to druids being port bots? /ponder

I can understand your frustration but what you are asking is to replace clerics. If you get your way the cleric class will be reduced to rez bots.


No...You would simply have to compete just a little bit for a group rather than claim the complete monopoly you've had for 3 years. And you could always go solo! There's a wonderful thread on the cleric boards listing all the great places clerics can solo. Have at it and enjoy :)

I don't think that was very nice, that's very Nazi to just dismiss someone and act like you are so superior they dont deserve a response - FU too.

For everyone else. My 53 orge warrior has 3500 HP with hero symbol and his gear. if I let him get to 20% that's 2400HP I watch peoples heals and warriors love to brag how many hp they have. I have never seen in my group or a raid group anyone with more then 4500 maybe some exist but not in the normal day to day game. So 3000HP heal will be in effect ch for 95% of the game.

The way it looks to many clerics is Druids don't have a role so we want to steal the clerics job, just push the cleric aside and start filling in for him (ignoring how much harder it is to level certain classes) I don't think that's accurate but that is the perception.

I'm not trying to persuade anyone just show you how a cleric sees this and why they are so upset. Clerics have been ignored since the day this game came out.

Umm, a lot of hostility here - I will leave then. It wasnt my intent to upset you.

They could, but then they would look as silly as you did for not reading this part by the original poster.


LOL. Good point. The nerf CH thread referred to was started by a cleric.

Clerics have been ignored since the day this game came out.

:o

Khuzdal .. your post was really the only rational, thinking one in this entire thread as far as I can see. Bravo!

I surely hate how all the worst in people is brought to the forefront in these discussions. The avarice, lust and greed that creeps into these conversations illustrates a lot of what is wrong with society today unfortunately. And .. on today of all days .. it shows me how little things have changed since last year on this date. You can flame me for that if you like (and I am again sure some/many of you will) .. but if it helps you reflect .. perhaps it is worth all the heat I might take.

At any rate, what has been said, for the most part, seems totally non-productive to me at best .. though I am sure some of you will say it is a stress reliever. The ramifications of some of your statements will and are be(ing) taken personally by others (as you can tell because you took things 'personally' too .. as a reason to even initiate some of your posts). Seems like a cycle that wastes a lot of good human energy to me.

Things can be expressed in a less 'personal' way. All people who start and fuel flame wars .. need to stop and consider what their real intent is in doing so. We are all good people .. but .. what we write .. is a mirror .. and we need to hold that up to ourselves from time to time to see if we still like the reflection.

Sigh. Peace.

My 53 orge warrior has 3500 HP with hero symbol and his gear.

You know, if level 60 raid buffed warriors only had 3500hp I don't think we would even be having this discussion right now.

lol Sorry, Tuved that little emote is perfect.

<--still laughing.

And .. on today of all days .. it shows me how little things have changed since last year on this date. You can flame me for that if you like (and I am again sure some/many of you will)

What is really petty is someone can even compare arguments over class balance in a fantasy game to what happened a year ago today. Making that comparison is a cheap shot at everyone here and is just disgusting. Yes, you probably should be flamed, but I am not even going to waste my time flaming someone who would stoop so low.

lol Sorry, Tuved that little emote is perfect.

<--still laughing.

Here too, and the more I think about it the more I laugh. Have a tear rolling down right now.

Tuved, read the second quote in your sig. I'll wait, go ahead....

Thank you, did you understand it? No? Read it again, I'll wait....

Did you see the part about secondary healer and most situations? What that tells me is druids should be able to compete for a spot as primary healer in the high risk zones ONLY if a cleric isn't available. That really isn't an option right now, I agree. However, your hostility towards clerics IS evident and you only further enrage the clerics that try to come to some understanding with druids.

Druids should never heal as well as a cleric. Rich also said that. Or is that just another part of the post by Rich that you ignored? Clerics should not be required in every zone in the game, however, in the deeper parts of Ssra, CT, etc, you should have the very best, i.e. the best damage, the healing, the best tanking. I've been deep in CT and Ssra multiple times. I don't go without a warrior. It just isn't worth the effort. So don't try to tell me hybrids can do just a good a job. I've been there, seen it, experienced it, and can say, no, they do not.

No...You would simply have to compete just a little bit for a group rather than claim the complete monopoly you've had for 3 years.

And there we have it. Cleric do not want to have to compete. They have a monopoly in certain areas and don't want to have to compete. They get some extra soloing ability, but they still don't want to have to compete for group spots. They must be assured their spot. For some reason they feel they are the only class that deserves this distinction.

Did you see the part about secondary healer and most situations? What that tells me is druids should be able to compete for a spot as primary healer in the high risk zones ONLY if a cleric isn't available.



Anyone else wanna take this one? I have to make some coffee quick.

Apparently, subtlety is not understood here. Carry on.

It's important that clerics maintain their role as the premier healer of the game. Raid quality heals are being added for other priests to allow them to fulfill their role as secondary healers in most situations. Clerics have always been a healing specialist, but the situation has escalated such that many raid level encounters may not be undertaken without disproportionally large numbers of clerics. No other class has been able to fill in if a cleric is absent, and healing is too important of a role to allow one class to dominate it so completely. After these changes are complete, clerics will still be the very best of healers but other priests class are able to substitute to some degree.

Clerics are going to receive additional changes so that they have some abilities that makes them more sought after for grouping. The final ability choices will be made after this first set of changes is evaluated and tested more extensively. It's very important that clerics have an ability that makes other players say "I really want to invite a cleric because they can do X, and that will be really helpful." This is vital to the health of the class. All priests should offer a similar level of value in solo, group, and raid situations, and they won't be considered balanced until this is true.

There it is, the two full paragraphs most commonly quoted from. Notice in the first paragraph he is talking about raid healing. He said shaman and druids should be able to cover for clerics in raids in some situations. We are so far from that now it isn't even funny. In the second paragraph he addresses grouping. If druids and shaman can cover for clerics in raids in some situations, then they WILL be able to be a main group healer in even the tougher zones. He covers giving clerics some additional abilities AFTER the healing adjustments are made and evaluated.

I would, but my current policy on Cleric trolls remains to just ignore them. :)

I don't know who's worse.

Is it the clerics who hate druids and post about how much they hate druids on the cleric boards ?

Or is it the druids who hate clerics and post about how much they have clerics on the druid boards ?

It is entirely true to say that the cleric class has been alternately nerfed and ignored by VI until the rather tactless decision to implement cleric upgrades while leaving the druid Adequate Healing spell out. The fact that you can say the same about druids does not detract from the truth of the statement as far as it concerns clerics.

Druids are widely detested on eqclerics, just as clerics are widely detested here. Personally, I have what it takes to come here and communicate with you despite the fact that it makes a lot of druids uncomfortable. There are also druids who have what it takes to go to eqclerics and make rational posts there.

But if you're a druid and you don't want to go to a place where people don't like you, then don't visit eqclerics - in the same way that a sensitive cleric would be ill-advised to come here.

I would, but my current policy on Cleric trolls remains to just ignore them.

She wasn't trolling. I have seen trolling and that wasn't it, hehe. I don't agree with her, but that doesn't make her a troll.

Druids are widely detested on eqclerics, just as clerics are widely detested here.

Clerics aren't detested by most people here. Clerics who come here, tell druids their healing is fine, or tell druids they are easy to level and should suck in the end game, or come here just to start a flame war are detested, but not all clerics. If you go back and look, you will see many more druids here that were happy for clerics and their soloing and ragefire upgrades than you will see happy clerics about an experimental druid heal that is still on test.

Get your DoT groups going tonight, and judge for yourself what the truth is.

I'm sorry, but most of the druids I know in the game will spend tonight raiding and then grouping with guildmates to hunt pieces for whatever luclin timesink they are currently working on.

Why would I want to do a 6 druid group anyways? Its nothing more than soloing with 6 people...boring. Something to do if you can't find anything better.

I dont get it. Do druids honestly think clerics want them to take their spots in exp groups? Did druids think clerics would be jumping up and down with joy at being replaced? Yes alot of clerics are angry with these changes. As would the wiz class if VI decided to go that route to upgrade druids.

Im still torn on the druid cheal. It will make them more 'useful' (a good druid is ALWAYS useful, on a raid or not) and take a bit of pressure off having to have 10 clerics or so on a raid. But on the other hand i feel druids are already wanted in exp grps and this will make them even more wanted. I know for a fact when i play my 58 monk exping, i dont look for a cleric, with the exception of CT. And even there you dont have to have a clr cept for a few of the camps.

If the mini druid cheal does go live, which it prolly will, its much more unbalancing to their class then giving a cleric a toy hammer. A 3k heal is HUGE. A hammer that rarely procs for full dam, for a caster class isnt huge. Its pityful.

compete for a spot as primary healer in the high risk zones ONLY if a cleric isn't available

That is as troll as it comes. If a Cleric is not available, then there is no competeing for a spot. This Cleric troll is saying, therefor, if a group needs a primary healer and it has a Druid and a Cleric to choose from, it should always pick the Cleric. Not sure how you think that troll is not trolling. I reccomend ingoring her like all the other Cleric trolls that post here.

The fact is, almost any grouping of 6 people who can do direct damage is damn powerful. Imagine a group of six wizards, six mages, six druids, six clerics, etc, etc, etc. However, there's not that many people who know 5 other people who are the same class who they group normally with. Even if they do, being able to synchronize schedules would be a chore in itself.

With DoT stacking, a group of six druids could do 10500 dmg in one minute (assume 1200 for WD*6 + 550*6 for 1min of epic). Without DoT stacking, a group of 6 druids could do 12288 dmg in about 14 seconds (two casts of wildfire*6). If the group had moonfire, you'd do 13800 in about 16 seconds.

Wizards could do 16890 in about the same time (assume one cast Icy Spear, one cast Sunstrike). 12150 if using Lure of Ice and Icy Spear. 14760 with Icy Spear and Winds of Gelid. 23940 if they had both Garrison's Superior Sundering and Elnerick's Electrical Rending (very unlikely to find six wizards with both). Note: wizard's can't really use Icy spear back to back due to the long refresh.

Mages do 10980 (Shock of Fiery Blades, Shock of Steel) not including pet damage.

Clerics do 5550+ whatever melee. (I couldn't fit two casts of Judgment because the timeframe I was working with the other examples was right around 15-20 seconds).

Two points -
1. You're very unlikely to find a six-person group of any one class very often.
2. Stackable DoTs don't bring much to those types of groups anyhow.

See Talyena, there is another one.

Do druids honestly think clerics want them to take their spots in exp groups?

See, it is the Cleric's god-given (pun intended) spot in the xp group that Druids are taking. Pure troll, same as that other poster you defended. Spotting Cleric trolls is easy.

If the mini druid cheal does go live, which it prolly will, its much more unbalancing to their class then giving a cleric a toy hammer. A 3k heal is HUGE. A hammer that rarely procs for full dam, for a caster class isnt huge. Its pityful.

Rarely? My warrior was dual wielding proccing weapons, tripple attack, 36% item haste, and my sister was using the level 56 cleric summoned hammer with just yalp for haste. She had so many procs that my warrior was green with envy. :) Don't come feeding some rarely procs crap here. And since it is unresistable, it hits in it's designated range every time.

Aaeamdar whats your point? This entire thread is a troll. Every post in it is. Even the title of the thread is insulting to clerics.

I have no idea whether this has been said but there were too many posts to read through (and I'm downright lazy and pissed off todays so SUE ME) but why don't the crappy clerics form 6 cleric groups and go fight some stuff?? Hmmm? We have to make 6 druid groups but they get to get a normal group? What kinda @#%$ you been smoking Clerics?
I won't generalise, I'll just target this message to the retarded clerics that agree with that assumption.

You have a good idea Mr. Cleric? Then decide whether you would do it first, THEN say it is apt for any other class, not just Druids, ok CLERICS????

Now get out of here, I'm sick of you pissers.
This message is targetted at the TROLLING clerics, not the intelligent ones, which explains why only a handful visit our message board on a regular basis and are welcome.

A 6 man Druid team is insane. Unlike a 6 man nuking team, a DoT team is nearly guaranteed full damage if the spells sticks. Nukes can be partly resisted, DoT are either full or not full (depending on if the mob doesn't die before the end of the spell). That's big benefit to Druid DoT teams.

6 man Necro team would be scary indeed.... /shivers

Why not tell the Necros to form 6 man Dot teams? Or the Shamen?

Sheesh, get a clue.

See, it is the Cleric's god-given (pun intended) spot in the xp group that Druids are taking. Pure troll, same as that other poster you defended. Spotting Cleric trolls is easy.

It might be considered a troll if statements like this straight from EQCleric didn't display that same attitude.

Here is one from a post by a cleric on test that was stickied to the front page of EQClerics for over a week.

My tells for groups has dropped to almost zero. My ability to get a group at all depends entirely on me either making the group; or the mercy of my closest friends. -- Candarie

Here is one suggestion on how to keep druids from being the main healer in groups but still giving us raid healing.

Clerics have a monoply on Raids. And even Clerics hate the fact that raids depend on them so much. This gives everyone an alternative. At a cost. And unless you are rolling in the plat laughing at poverty, at 11pp a CHeal is not gonna be used enough in exp groups to destroy our group desireablity. What group is gonna want to support a druid's cost of CHealing a tank in an exp grind? -- CalaminSoulmender

Here is one that was happy for the new spells, BUT

We still have this threat of giving Druids/Shamans the mini-CH that will work outside the raid environment hanging over our heads, like an axe about to fall, potentially making the cleric class sidelined for xp grind situations. And nothing in the new 'toys' will make more than a small dint in this, if Verant push ahead with this. -- Felishanna Secretlight

Quote by Stormhaven:
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1. You're very unlikely to find a six-person group of any one class very often.
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Quote by Araxx:
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Why not tell the Necros to form 6 man Dot teams? Or the Shamen?
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Araxx, you almost got the point. You dont need 6 druids for a dot group. You can use any mix of druid, necro or shaman.


Quote by Stormhaven:
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2. Stackable DoTs don't bring much to those types of groups anyhow.
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Stackable mana free dots do.


Quote by Talyena:
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She wasn't trolling. I have seen trolling and that wasn't it, hehe. I don't agree with her, but that doesn't make her a troll.
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Such a nice post :)


Quote by Talyena:
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If druids and shaman can cover for clerics in raids in some situations, then they WILL be able to be a main group healer in even the tougher zones.
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Yes, but the main complaint I myself have about the 'incomplete heal' is that it will be more usefull for xp groups then for raids. A 'real deal' complete heal that costs 600-800 mana or an 'incomplete' heal that heals 50% max 5000, would be much better at reducing the need for clerics on raids.

It might be considered a troll if statements like this straight from EQCleric didn't display that same attitude.

Ahhh. I see now. We are agreeing, but just using different terms. I consider a Cleric troll as any of these Clerics who just want to argue why Druids are great and don't need improved healing. I do not consider a Cleric a troll just because they disagree with me on the specifics that might be needed to improve Druid healing, as long as that disagreement is not based on the intent to maintain Cleric healing monopoly in high-end groups. I figure every Druid here will all agree on one thing - our healing is inadequate and needs improvment. I figure every non-Cleric poster here will agree that a Cleric's stranglehold on raids and high-end groups is a problem and that there aught to be a choice of classes to fulfill the primary healing role in a high-end group (that choice does not necessarily have to come in the form of a Druid). All the Clerics coming here and defending their absolute necessity to high-end groups I consider as trolls. I guess you are saying that they are not trolls, but rather people with legitimate differing views and you are pointing to all the crap on EQClerics to indicate how widespread that view is held among Clerics.

Same thing, from my perspective. They are expressing a viewpoint repeatedly that no Druid will ever agree with, and I will continue to ignore all such posters and encourage other Druids to do likewise.

Someone isn't a troll just because they disagree. They are a troll if they disagree with an attitude to start a fight and a flame war. If people always agreed, this would be a very boring world.

Right, Talyena. However, repeated expressing an opinion that has no hope of being persuasive or constructive IS disagreeing merely for the purpose of starting a fight. How is coming in here and stating to the effect that the Cleric healing monopoly must be maintained at the expense of Druids any different than coming in here and stating "The Druid class should pay for its advantages in theearly game by sucking in the endgame."? Both are opinions that NO druid would ever agree with. There is no point in stating them unless your intent is to incite and anger, not discuss.

"I'm sorry, but most of the druids I know in the game will spend tonight raiding and then grouping with guildmates to hunt pieces for whatever luclin timesink they are currently working on."

Hi there. I would like to introduce you to the other 95% of druid players that are not doing exactly what you are doing every night.

"Why would I want to do a 6 druid group anyways? Its nothing more than soloing with 6 people...boring. Something to do if you can't find anything better."

I don't really know how to approach this argument. You're a true pessimeist, that's for sure, lol. I'm just sharing the knowledge of something fun that weilds a great amount of experiance for druids, on a message board made for druids. If you don't think it's fun, more power to you. I guess you could look at any 6 man group as boring, and as simply soloing with 5 other people too...

I've now done DoT groups with around 15 different people and they have all had nothing but good to say. The only people that cannot come up with anything good to say, are the ones that have never done it, lol.

One more thing, it dosen't have to be 6 druids. I've said this time and again, but the nay-sayers seem obsessed with "6 druid DoT groups".

Fairweather Pure

Fine, I make reasonable arguements from a clerical perspective and am called a troll. I can deal with that. What really surprises (but shouldn't) is that druids are so hypocrytical in their labels. Druids are making arguements that no cleric will ever agree to, and continually make them simply to see if they can ruffle the feathers of clerics. Since that appears to be Aaeamdar's goal, I shall refer to him as Druid_Troll_01. When the druid community can (and in the past has) come up with ideas for better healing that will not turn clerics into rez-bots, we are all ears.

If a 3k heal for druids at level 54 is HUGE, isnt a 10k heal at level 39 for clerics just GODLIKE compared to other classes? Clerics had the ability to solo before, now they can solo even better, and can tank, so they can not only contrib to a raid with their heals now, they can contribute towards the DPS as well. Druid dots are good, but they are FAR behind necro dots, and a good bit behind shaman dots too. Likely, if a raid wants dot stacking for the raid, they will opt for necros, rather than druids. In fact, the dot stacking problem was addressed, NOT for druids, but for necros. The balancing for druids was supposed to be the upgraded heal. Everyone (casters) is getting the major upgrades they asked for, except for druids.

Druids are making arguements that no cleric will ever agree to, and continually make them simply to see if they can ruffle the feathers of clerics. Since that appears to be Aaeamdar's goal, I shall refer to him as Druid_Troll_01.

I'll bother to respond to this since it is not about why you think Druid healing should continue to suck. Please feel free to find a post of mine on YOUR class forum (EQClerics) where I am putting forth an arguement that no cleric would ever agree with for the purpose of starting a fight. I have made a total of 3 posts on YOUR forum, so you can easily go use your search feature to find them.

Of course you think your arguements are reasonable froma "Clerical perspective" (presumably you meant from a Cleric's perspective), but that perspective has inherent in it that Clerics must maintain their monopoly on the primary healing role in highend groups. That idea is antithetical to any reasonable discussion about improved Druid healing on a Druid class board. Thus - Troll.

Again, if you want to come to OUR forum and discuss ways in which imporved Druid healing can be implemented and drop your entitlement attitude, I will welcome you with open arms. Until then, however, please keep your anti-Druid rants on your own class board.

Here's the thing that seems obvious.

You don't fix one broken class by breaking another working class. (Robbing Peter to pay Paul)

A 3K heal is not secondary healing spell it's a primary healing spell. Maybe that's not a bad thing but quit calling apples oranges.

The game is too dependant on enchanters. Beastlords kinda suck so lets give everything but c3 to them. In the end it doesn't make the game stronger, it makes the game weaker. Just as they screwed up the tank class they will screw up the healing class.

The problem is not Druids or Clerics, the problem is Verant. They need to fix the druid class by using some imagination. They seem to me to be floundering since the old-guard left.

We all agree druids need help, including a better heal, we just disagree on the mechanics. Fix the druids but dont destroy the cleric class in the process.

Some of us are like radical feminists - we hear the word "man" and explode. Clerics are not your enemies, we got some a@hole clerics but you got some a@hole druids - in the middle, hopefully, we can meet.

It's important that clerics maintain their role as the premier healer of the game. Raid quality heals are being added for other priests to allow them to fulfill their role as secondary healers in most situations.


This has to be one of the most misunderstood quotes from Rich.

A lot of Clerics feel this means a Raid ONLY heal. Never once does Rich Waters ever say that. He used the words "Raid quality". Raid quality heals happen to also be useful in group situations. CH is a "Raid quality" heal as well. I mean, if a partial form is certainly the full thing is. CH is also used out side of raids.

Symantics, maybe. But I get the impression that he chose is words deliberately.

edit: Learn to proof read Tea.

My advice is just dont visit the Cleric board. I never felt Clerics were the enemy until i read theyre board. They've been spoiled for so long that they expect to be needed in every situation more than any other class, and i hope Verant gives them a rude awakening. For once Clerics might have to get groups on an even keel as Shamans and Druids, if Verant quits baby'ing them.

As of right now theyre still the #1 choice for raids by a mile which isnt changing, and even more desirable over Druids and Shamans for exp groups due to their new abilities(damaging and healing), wheras Druids and Shamans still havent received a thing. It still makes me laugh when Clerics talk about how Druids were getting picked up over them when thats a complete lie. They cant make the I cant solo excuse anymore so thats out. They cant say they arent still the best healers since they jsut received 3 new heals on top of being the undisputed healers. They cant say how their epic is impossible because RF was just fixed. They cant even complain about easy experience spots anymore, everything was just tuned to make them even more necessary in the hard places where the best experience now is, WTF~ In fact they have very little to whine about right now, least of all Druids getting a 3k heal in light of what they just received.

The 3k heal is insulting at this point. We should be getting every one of those 3 new heals Clerics just recieved on top of the 3k heal. Before any cleric makes the dumb point that their CH only heals 3k, you need to clarify if your speaking about raiding or grouping. Maybe for raiding, but for general exp groups your heals do much more than that considering many of you play the "how low can you go game", and even if you dont your not CH'ing at 3 bubs of health. Clerics whole arguments revolve around exxagerations of pity, when they CAN solo, they CAN heal for much more than 3k, they CAN do damage, they ARE being picked up over Druids even in OS on a regular basis.

You guys better hope Rich Waters was smoking Crack when he stated theyre goal was to make all the priest classes equally desired. Your going to have a tough time accepting equality in terms of desirability considering how spoiled you've been. At least things cant get much worse for Druids ;)

I will say the animosity level has reach a level beyond healthy competition :/

Clerics aren't your enemy unless you make them your enemy.

Take the total number of people posting on EQCleric vs Total number of Clerics in game. Can only guess the percentage, but I'll guess what 1/4? Now subtract the ones posting that aren't adding to those threads you post about. Your left with a small minority. Unfortunately that minority is speaking the loudest, so it's what you hear most. In other words, your falling for lobbyist rhetoric. Some Clerics are posting things to try to get a balance. That their idea is sometimes flawed, or even biased is natural and not an intent of trying to harm.

The majority of Clerics are simply not posting and just going along as they always have taking the changes as they go. I guess you could charge their silence with implied consent, but I think it's mostly they think it's pointless to argue on a message board.

When these boards are full of rants, and general weeping...they are quite boring.

Two things.

First and separate is that I think druids do need a lot better heal. And yes my primary is a cleric even though my druid is same level.

Second is a misconception on soloing. To say that clerics can solo now is like saying druids can heal now. Neither one is still very efficient at the job. The hammer was nerfed to less procs and clerics while much better are still towards the bottom of the pile in soloing. And escpecially since the hammer is not even received til level 56.

Druids need better healing starting clear down in the 40s and clerics need better soloing starting in the late 30s. As a cleric I am all for druids getting better healing but please dont keep stating that our soloing is equal to yours now. It never will be and never should be.

Did you see the part about secondary healer and most situations? What that tells me is druids should be able to compete for a spot as primary healer in the high risk zones ONLY if a cleric isn't available.

That is only because you want to ignore the other official statements such as clerics should not have a monopoly on healing for groups and raids.

Funny too that your preferred quote doesn't say a thing about clerics being the absolute best at casting HP buffs, but that is the way it is and we accept it that way because your branch of the priests should have that ability.

The silly simple truth is that you fear having to find a group like everyone else.

The sad truth is that even the Verant people seem to think it is a horrible thing that clerics would often feel as though they are not essential to every group. The horror. The horror. The horror.

What other class argues that it should be essential to every group? Carried further, what other class argues that it should be essential to every phat lewtz encounter? That is your arguement! And you expect us to be ok with it?

Verant insists that this game is for groups and has established the reward system accordingly. Druids, shaman and clerics and the three healing classes and all three should be able to effectively heal a group wherever a group hunts and for whatever mob that can be handled by a single group. All three should have and do alternative capabilities unique to their class that adds value and differentiates the priest classes.

That clerics have enjoyed being essential to every group to present does not warrant that the monopoly be protected and shame on Verant for doing so. Shame on you for posturing your greed and self-interest as anything other than that what is. Clerics should be able to enjoy this game to it's fullest measure and that includes the social interaction required of the rest of us who seek to join groups. "Sure, but I need a port there" should not be all the communication required of any class while all the others are not so essential.

*Aawulf is no longer ENRAGED*

Due to mudflation it has been very difficult for the big majority of clerics to find pickup groups. This started when Velious was out for a little bit and people actually got gear with a substantial amount of HP, AC, mana, resists and effects.

In the past I could root-nuke mobs at a rate of about 1 mob per 8 to 10 minutes. Now I can melee mobs solo and kill about 1 mob per 7 minutes. Making 12% AA in an hour isn't anywhere near efficient especially when I hear about people kiting lvl 55 mobs and getting 2.5 bubbs AAXP in 30 minutes (not that it is possible to do this everywhere but it IS possible, whereas a cleric can barely keep up with mobs 15 levels below them.

As for a 3k heal trivializing many encounters lets look at Vindi:

-Quad hits for 700
-Kick/Bash in the 150's
-Unslowable

This means he can dish out about 1450dmg/sec. Warrior using defensive reduces dmg by 40%. Assuming Vindi quads/kicks/bashes all the time and never misses a hit it would result in roughly 800dmg per second.

Vindi CH chains are typically set at a 3 to 5 seconds interval, most common CH interval is 3 seconds. This would mean that the MA gets healed every 3 to 4 seconds (taking delays and lag into account) which results in 2400 to 3000HP healed per heal.

Don't forget that I am assuming that Vindi doesn't miss a single hit and that he hits for full possible dmg per hit and also has a successfull roll on all types of hits (kick, bash, dual wield, double attack). A typical MA tanking Vindi has about 6k HP raid buffed, up to 8k. Usually the MA loses about 20% to 30% HP till a heal lands. Also don't ignore all the patch heals thrown at them, too.

The only time I'd ever see the MA's HP drop low was when a guild did Vindi for the first time and wiped, when a healer went LD or when the MA forgot to stop attacking upon engrage.

Giving other priests heals that are more than sufficient for mobs in tiers 1 to 4/5 would mean to totally unbalance the game. Instead of having 10 guilds at most competing for those spawns you'd all of a sudden have 30 to 40 guilds competing for these spawns.

I for one still think that what druids would need and get most benefit of would be one large, fast patch heal in the Ethereal Remedy line (helps for patch healing in groups and raids) and a special form of group heals that start around lvl 30 with several upgrades, ending at lvl 60 and being more efficient than Ethereal Elixir. Most high end fights deal with mobs having some form of AE or curse-DoT. Druids using a strong group heal would definately be a huge plus for these raids. Implementing such heals would also not be unreasonnable and wouldn't mean the slightest stepping on another class' turf.

Asking for a group regen type spell that also includes Remove Greater Curse or a patch heal with RGC would seem reasonnable. Heal the cursed player while also removing the curse.

Asking for a CH type spell would however mean trivializing the game on several levels and also trivialize grouping in the hardest spots possible...imagine a cleric/druid healing duo in a high end zone...you'd have 2 HUGE heals, high dmg output and in case of emergency evac. Nope, 2 druids couldn't take over the healing in the extreme places but a cleric/druid healing team in a group would make such places trivial. Cleric would still heal the MA but in case of adds the druid could heal the SA or the MA while the cleric heals the chanter who tries to mez/slow. Anyways just imagine the uproar if this would and could happen.

If a 3k heal for druids at level 54 is HUGE, isnt a 10k heal at level 39 for clerics just GODLIKE compared to other classes?


Omigod, that has got to be one of the funniest things I've read in quite a while! And I'm not even including the comment about clerics tanking. :D

What level 39 cleric has ever healed for 10k with one casting of a single-target heal?

Thanks for the laugh.

arvor you are aware complete heal, which is a 10k heal, is a level 39 spell right? Complete heal will never land for 10 on anything but a charmed pet, but a 39 cleric's efficiency continues to grow with this single spell from 39 to 60, getting stronger every time a tank gains hp.

if you want to see a level 39 cleric heal for 10k, that could be arranged if know any 39 clerics on rodcet i'd be happy to let them heal a charmed wolf for 10k.

Yeah, I know it's a level 39 spell that nominally heals for 10K (actually 10.5K, I think). And, since I know the spell tries to heal for that much, it follows that I know it scales up with the target's hit points.

And I'll even admit that I'd forgotten about charmed pets that can actually have 10K hit points. But how often is that occurring in a situation where a sub-40 character is involved?

I still think that comment is funny... so I'll change my question to "what level 39 cleric, in a non-contrived situation, heals for 10K with one casting of a single-target heal spell?" And yes, i definitely consider demonstrations or powerlevelling a rez bot "contrived".

That would be like saying a druid can easily solo, oh, let's say Faydedar because since druids can use mana-free DoTs they can just kite him around forever. Theoretically, purely by the numbers, it's probably possible. And I'd laugh at that suggestion just as much.

Hey guys! I know the following points have been made, and I will make them again since they seem to be getting missed:

1) Healing in xp groups requires that healing be sufficient and efficient enough to not cause undue downtime.

2) In any situation where all priests can satisfy condition #1 above, druids and shamans will be much *more* desirable than clerics for xp groups.

This is based on personal experience, where as a young cleric I would get groups only when a druid/shaman wasn't available. You see, their heals were almost as good as mine, and healing was all I could do with any efficiency, while they could do other things (nuke, dot, buff, etc.) Yes there would be a touch of downtime above having a dedicated healer, but the downtime was rarely judged to be "undue" (ref point1)

That said, should druids and shamans get healing upgrades? Yes, without a doubt. Your heals are a joke to be honest, I acknowledge that. The problem is that enhancing druid heals to non-joke level is going to squeeze clerics out of a lot of places, making us less desired than our priestly brethren. You see that thanks to mudlfation (roaring to new highs with Luclin gear and aaxp) clerical healing is becoming increasingly more than is needed, and its at a point where a "non-joke" heal froma druid suddenly becomes enough to cover the remaining need.

So what is needed? There is a lot of debate on that, I personally think that clerics needed to be made more into "shaman lite" than "paladin lite" with a range of blessing (ie. buffing) spells that boosted our side, but without the shamanic debuffing spells - we have always been about make our side better, not the other side weaker. Making our little summoned hammer either into a real pet, or at least like the enchanter pet that didn't poof, would also be nice. Clerics are not melee, don't let the plate armor fool you, believe me, its mostly decorative anyway.

Based on that, the differances would be:

All priests: Can operate as a healer
Cleric: Can buff the party in a shaman-like fashion and have the best heals. Can add a moderate amount of damage with weak pet and summoned hammer (starting at level 56...)
Druid: Add in a nice mix of DD, DoT, DSes, and buffs
Shaman: Have the best combination of buffs and debuffs, along with mana regen in the form of cannibalize.

What does everyone think?

Zarros Livinglight
Vicar of Tunare
Saryrn Server

If a 3k heal for druids at level 54 is HUGE, isnt a 10k heal at level 39 for clerics just GODLIKE compared to other classes?


Since some people seemed to have missed the point, I'll rephrase the question that was posed:

If a 3K heal for druids at level 54 is HUGE, isn't a 4K to 6K heal at level 54 for clerics even bigger?

Of course it is. And don't try to tell me that level 54 clerics don't heal for 4K to 6K with their CHs frequently.

Actually in most grind groups I'm in at level 53 sees my cheals landing at aboud 20-40% of tank health, for around that many (3-4k-ish hp). Raid cheals actually hit the target around 50-60% health, although on most raids the tanks are all aego'd so I'll grant its for more.

Then again, maybe I'm just a gimp ;-)

Zarros Livinglight
Vicar of Tunare
Saryrn Server

The avg lvl 54 cleric will not even see a MA with more than 6500HP raid buffed. To my knowledge not every single group has a warrior and a shaman in group to get up raid level buffs. most of the time a CH hits for 2000+ dmg healed, in most instances you could consider a 3k heal much more than enough.

I wonder why people always talk about VT, 8k HP tanks and such when comparing the heals. How many people do VT? How many people heal an 8k HP RAID BUFFED tank day to day?

Making 12% AA in an hour isn't anywhere near efficient especially when I hear about people kiting lvl 55 mobs and getting 2.5 bubbs AAXP in 30 minutes (not that it is possible to do this everywhere but it IS possible

Ok, someone is feeding you a line, or you misunderstood. 2.5 BULE bubbles maybe. 2.5 yellow bubbles? Maybe in the very hardest core of Deep AE groups. Even there I doubt 2.5 yellows in 30 minutes is remotely achievable.


In a half hour of DRUID soloing, I expect to make maybe a blue and a half of AA, maybe a bit more if the dice roll right.

ok.. I am so sick and tired of hearing this new druid/shaman heal as a CH!!! IT IS NOT A COMPLETE HEAL!!! IT IS A HEAL FOR UP TO 75% of the HEALTH!

Had it been called the druid 75, or the druid 3k.. half of all the annimosity would be negated.

My veiws of the caster balancing:

Druid Epic snare removal: Nerf, yea, IMHO.. I enjoyed the snare component.
Druid Dot Stacking: Unless you are raiding (2+ min fights) with other druids - Moot point.. no difference.
Exp nerf/reinstatement: See, they took away solo'ing.. waited for all the arguments for that, reinstated, and that was the Druid balancing.. /sigh

Gratz Clerics.. I am happy that you have now received what you have..keep up the 'we're' broken theme and I do believe that you will have SoW, Invis and a 1200pt nuke soon

Couple different points to make.

First, I'm not sure where all you clerics levelled up in your youths, but I have lower level characters of different classes, and the "need cleric" mentality is still there. Most lower level players are twinks. Twinks with high end chars will still prefer clerics over druids/shaman in the younger levels, sow is not an issue as most of these players already have JBoots. I've seen the shouts in LOIO and OT etc stating that groups WANT clerics, especially with the partial baby rezzes.

Back to the high end.

I am a PRIEST class. One of the THREE healing classes. I should be able to heal an exp group sufficiently. There is NO reason I shouldn't. When forming a group for exp, you usually decide "hey we need a tank type". Do you wait for a warrior to zone in? Nope. You see pally or SK or monk or ranger and you take one. You don't NEED a specific type of tank. You shouldn't need only a cleric either. There is no difference. One healing class should be required in a group, but it should be a choice of three, not "let's hope a cleric zones in sometime soon."

To the cleric trolls: Go away. We are tired of your bad ideas parroted here. I'm not sure how many posts have suggested our heal cost a peridot. Why we have to keep telling you this is retarded is beyond me. By posting that, you are just flaming. And you wonder why you are received with some irritability. I have an idea... if our incomlpete heal costs one peridot, the full complete heal should cost TWO peridots. Would only be fair. Oh wait... 10k / 3k would be 3+ peridots. Start coughing up the dough. Sounds stupid doesn't it. All this suggestion does for clerics is show how greedy and selfish some of you are. Now please, go away.

And for everyone else that thinks were are overpowered/uber/balanced. Go away. You try keeping a warrior healed and tell me how much one fight can drain your mana. Now do the same fight as a cleric.... ahhh you have 80% mana left, how nice.

For those that say we heal just fine if there's a slower in our group or that we have KEI. Shut up. We shouldn't be required to have these things to be an effective healer. We should be able to heal decently in ANY group make up. After all, clerics do not need slows/KEI to be effective. Druids shouldn't either.

The point is that druids used to heal at a certain percentage of clerics (in lower levels). That percentage was around 60% or something. We druids, would just like to maintain that percentage in our old ages, not be as good or better then clerics. Healing at 20% effectively as clerics at lvl 60 is just assinine. There is NO reason, whatsoever, that we should not maintain that percentage throughout a druid's entire lifespan. I will not be satisfied until this is true.

Oh, and my other gripe.

Clerics, we DO KNOW that complete heal usually heals for about 3k. The point is that it *COULD* heal for 10k. So please stop throwing that around, it's OLD.

Actually in most grind groups I'm in at level 53 sees my cheals landing at aboud 20-40% of tank health, for around that many (3-4k-ish hp). Raid cheals actually hit the target around 50-60% health, although on most raids the tanks are all aego'd so I'll grant its for more.

Then again, maybe I'm just a gimp ;-)


Nah, you're just very, very conservative. I'll bet you wear a belt with your braces...:)

The majority of my XP grouping has been in groups with a cleric. I play a very minor healing role (and that's fine with me). From 40 to 60, the clerics I group with usually don't land a CH until the tank in the group is down to a bubble or two of health. It's watching these clerics do this on which I base my observations.

Sure, we all know a CH can heal for only 1000 hp, but we also all know that that is highly inefficient. On raids, we all generally accept that inefficiency in order to preserve a buffer for spikes in mob damage. Which is why I believe that a CH does land for much more, on average, in an XP group rather than on a raid.

Of course, one thing everyone also has to acknowledge is that while the average heal with CH on a raid may be 3K to 4K, this isn't why CH is critical. It's critical because it can heal the tank for all of his or her HP, and thus able to handle the large spikes in damage.

If CH for clerics was capped at 3K or 4K, it wouldn't work the way it does now. And that's why a 3K hp heal from a druid won't touch the CH rot.

Let's look at a high blue XP group, assuming that druids get the 3K hp heal. As noted above, a cleric can (and arguably should) be able to land a CH in this XP group when the tank is at a bubble or two. That's 4K to 5K per heal. A 3K heal from a druid taking the same mana is, at best, 75% as efficient. Assuming the same mana regen, the druid acting as primary healer in this group with the new 3K heal is going to be spending all of his or her time healing or medding for healing. The druid simply won't have the time or mana to do all the other things that druids admittedly could do in an XP group.

A cleric, in contrast, has better efficiency and thus more mana to do other things, if he or she wants to. With their new spells, this includes doing melee damage.

Thus, a druid in a primary healer spot must act as...surprise, a primary healer! And due to the healing inefficiencies of the druid spells (even the new druid spell on test), that druid is not going to be as flexible in that group as the cleric. Add in the advantage of a 56% res and the better HP/AC buffs, and the cleric has a decided advantage over the druid for a high blue group.

EVEN WITH THE 3K DRUID HEAL.

If a cleric is available, the cleric obviously would be preferred over a 3K heal druid for this group. The druid then has to fill one of the other slots, functionally speaking. The 3K heal druid probably could (I say probably because I obviously can't test it) fill in for the cleric, but the group would be less efficient, and the druid would have to focus almost exclusively on healing.

Which is why I am scratching my head trying to figure out what clerics are worried about.


(BTW, we won't bother talking about low blue groups. Low blue groups don't need either clerics or druids for healing...:)

Clerics, we DO KNOW that complete heal usually heals for about 3k. The point is that it *COULD* heal for 10k. So please stop throwing that around, it's OLD.

First of all friend, some of your fellow druids seem overly fixated on the fact that cheal caps at 10khp. They use that as an argument to assure us clerics that a 3khp druid heal will not edge us out of experience groups. We clerics are trying to point out that in the actual play of the game that the potential power of the heal is irrelevant compared to what is needed to get the job done.

Druids need better heals, and both druids and shamans might as well get the 75% versions of cheal being debated on test. The problem is, as has been discovered on Test (from what I've heard) has that been without something to compensate, druids/shamans suddenly become much more desirable in grind groups than clerics. The net result is clerics unable to get xp (effectively or even semi-effectively) due to a lack of being able to do anything else.

Cleric: Heal, Buff
Druid: Heal, Snare, DoT, DD, DS, Buff, Evac

What was saving clerics all along was that being the only source of sufficient (and I want to emphasize *sufficient*) healing guaranteed we got the groups we needed to get xp. If druid and shaman heals go live (as I think they should) then clerics are going to need additional tuning to increase their group desirability, and the current method that VI is implementing of making us "claridans" at level 56 is decidedly NOT the way to do it.

I realize that druidic mana is not endless, but I can go entire nights with 80+ mana (outside of buffing rounds) because the demand for healing isn't that high. My wisdom is right around 200 in full wis gear, around 175ish in resist gear, going higher with KEI of course. So, while a druid playing main healer won't be able to nuke like one with a cleric in the group, they will still be able to provide more to a group other than heals than a cleric could, and that will likely be enough on the live servers as it has been on test.

So, what do clerics need? More versatility, more ways to help groups other than by buffing hp/ac and healing as the former is becoming redundant with higher end gear and the latter will be able to be covered by the other priests. Do clerics need to keep the healing monopoly? Only if it remains our only way to be desirable to groups otherwise we have very little to offer realistically, at least in my experience.

But then again, maybe I just suck as a cleric ;)

Zarros Livinglight
Vicar of Tunare
Saryrn Server

Clerics are so full of exxagerations its funny.

First of all, you get much more benefit from CH in exp groups than you do raids. It may land on average of 4k or so for raids, but for exp groups many Clerics play the 'how low can you go' game so depending on the amount of hp's a tank has, your heal about 90% of their life bar. So lets say on average your CH in exp groups does close to 5k+.
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"Due to mudflation it has been very difficult for the big majority of clerics to find pickup groups."

This is a complete lie. Have you done pickup groups? Have you regularly seen Druids and Shamans being chosen over you to fill the healer slot? Because i do them regularly, and i'll tell you as a fact Clerics are ALWAYS picked up over Druids for the healer role, even in OS to this day. The only reason i can think of why a Cleric would have a tough time finding a group is there being too many other Clerics in the zone, or bad timing where the group couldnt find a cleric and settled for the Druid/Shaman. Pickup groups still prefer the specialist healing class(clerics) as their main healer, i see it everyday.
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"In the past I could root-nuke mobs at a rate of about 1 mob per 8 to 10 minutes. Now I can melee mobs solo and kill about 1 mob per 7 minutes. Making 12% AA in an hour isn't anywhere near efficient especially when I hear about people kiting lvl 55 mobs and getting 2.5 bubbs AAXP in 30 minutes (not that it is possible to do this everywhere but it IS possible, whereas a cleric can barely keep up with mobs 15 levels below them."

I dont mind improving your ability to solo effectively, although i'll admit i'm not exactly sure where it currently stands. What is a Clerics dps currently with the lvl 58 or 60 hammer(inc proc)? But there is no way you should be even close to the best soloers considering your the most desired class in groups and raids, and own the monopoly on healing by a large margin. That seems to me what some of you expect, and it goes to show how ludicrous and unreasonable some of your expectations are. I realize not all Clerics are so unreasonable, and expect to be the most desired as well as the best soloers, but there is a large segment of your Cleric board that seems to expect that.
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"Giving other priests heals that are more than sufficient for mobs in tiers 1 to 4/5 would mean to totally unbalance the game. Instead of having 10 guilds at most competing for those spawns you'd all of a sudden have 30 to 40 guilds competing for these spawns."

I agree with you here. But your analysis is alittle off. The issue isnt directly related to the 3k heal, it has to do with enough healing power, a guild can do pretty much anything. The limiting factor has always been the number of Clerics a guild could muster. Dont you think its a little lame that the number of Clerics dictates what a guild can take down? And how Uber guilds tend to have a much easier time recruiting Clerics, leaving the lesser guilds short, because many do jump. That is an awfully poor mechanic for the game lvl 50-60's are playing. So your right, if Druids are given the 3k heal it can significantly improve those guilds that never had teh healing power because they lacked Clerics, they will be able to do much tougher mobs because they finally have the healing ability to do it. The problem is the current situation has to change, Raids cant revolve around Clerics as much as they do, its imbalancing and a poor design to the high end game.
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"I for one still think that what druids would need and get most benefit of would be one large, fast patch heal in the Ethereal Remedy line (helps for patch healing in groups and raids) and a special form of group heals that start around lvl 30 with several upgrades, ending at lvl 60 and being more efficient than Ethereal Elixir. Most high end fights deal with mobs having some form of AE or curse-DoT. Druids using a strong group heal would definately be a huge plus for these raids. Implementing such heals would also not be unreasonnable and wouldn't mean the slightest stepping on another class' turf."

It doesnt matter, Druids are going to HAVE to step on somebodys turf for improvement considering the whole design of our class was to be pretty good at what other classes are great at. Thats something Clerics or Wizards are going to have to swallow, besides nobody ever told either of you that you own healing or nuking to every degree. I dont mind your Ethereal Elixir idea, but i still maintain that yoru CH monopoly needs to be broken. Its unhealthy for the game, and its just a sad state of things when one class dictates so much of what a guild can do. It doesnt even have to be Druids, some Drudis here have said give it to Paladins. I dont care, as long as the high end game is fixed and Clerics arent the determining factor of whether you can raid that night or not.
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20-40% health is 1-2 bubbles ;-)

Sounds like I'm in line with your observations. Nice to know =)

We are coming at this from 2 differant directions, and I suppose only the people who have played to 50+ as a cleric and a druid can really speak for sure. Honestly I can tell you that with a maxed 3khp heal, I could take care of all the healing needs of my group mates in a typical grind group. Since healing is all a cleric can offer, it makes more sense to take a priest that can do more than "just" heal. This is where clerics feel threatened.

My solution is one I think both druids and clerics could generally get behind. Give the other priests the heals, with our being slightly better in terms of efficiency and power. But, to balance out the fact that we can't effectively offer anything else, give clerics some additional utility, if druids and shamans can be cleric-lite, why can't clerics be shaman-lite for example?

(On a related note: I'd really like a hit of whatever the Dev team in Verant was smoking when they decided to make us "battle-clerics", aka "Claridans" with the summoned hammer and YaulpV...thats some good stuff apparently!)

Zarros Livinglight
Vicar of Tunare
Saryrn Server

Zarros, that rather glaringly points out the difference between your heals and those used by druids.

When I have to try to heal a group, an XP group in most areas (largely deep sebilis, FG, SG and the like), 40% mana is an amazing surplus. It takes pretty much everything I have at 230 WIS + mana items to keep the group moving.

Hard XP zones are completely out of reach, unless I am teamed with a shaman to provide slows and torpor on the MT.

Since healing is all a cleric can offer, it makes more sense to take a priest that can do more than "just" heal. This is where clerics feel threatened.


This actually is no longer the case. The clerics I know seem to be doing nice additional melee damage. In fact, due to the inherent superior efficiency of CH over a 3K heal, as I point out above, clerics in a high blue group would have more mana and more flexibility to do other things than a druid could do (if in the primary healing role).

Don't assume that a druid in the primary healing role in a high blue group is going to be able to do all the things you see druids do in groups now.

As far as "XP grind groups," are you referring to low blue groups? If so, see my comment above. Those groups don't need either clerics or druids for healing...a monk with bandages suffices.

With all that being said, I don't see any reason for clerics to get some additional utility type spells in addition to the new heals, new hammers, and other spells that they've just gotten. Of course, I would expect druids to get the 3K heal as well as the triplet of new cleric heals in that case.

Zarros, that rather glaringly points out the difference between your heals and those used by druids.

When I have to try to heal a group, an XP group in most areas (largely deep sebilis, FG, SG and the like), 40% mana is an amazing surplus. It takes pretty much everything I have at 230 WIS + mana items to keep the group moving.

Hard XP zones are completely out of reach, unless I am teamed with a shaman to provide slows and torpor on the MT.

Thanks for agreeing with me. My point is that druids (and shamans) should have better heals. But that to compensate, clerics need more of a non-healing benefit to groups.

We're not the enemy my druidic friends, don't let the a$$h@les among us confuse you. All we want is to be desired in groups, just like you. All we have now to get us there is heals, and when yall get the good heals (which you *should* get) our healing surplus won't be enough to edge us into being even with yall.

Now, if yall had the good heals, what do you think clerics should get to even things up?

Zarros Livinglight
Vicar of Tunare
Saryrn Server

Scirocco you make a good point about 56+ clerics being able to add DPS to groups via melee thanks to the new hammer spells, and I can't really argue that point. The problem, as I see it, is that is a 56th level spell, and 50 -55 clerics (who also don't have the 96% xp rez) are going to start hurting in xp groups without something to offer other than healing. <50 clerics should be fine as I don't expect 54th+ level druids and shamans to be competing for group spots as main healer ;)

I remain of the opinion that the hammer/bash was a bad way of tweaking clerics, but it seems to be the way Verant wanted to go.

Zarros Livinglight
Vicar of Tunare
Saryrn Server

"Now, if yall had the good heals, what do you think clerics should get to even things up?"

thats up for clerics to decide and propose to verant, like druids did. when clerics saw the druid petition getting some attention from VI they paniced at the thought of losing "their" spot in every exp group as a healer, so instead of going to verant to get changes made to give them versitality which would make a group want them, they fought to keep druids from getting upgraded heals.... instead of addressing their real problem, verant. now you have a line of summoned hammers and upgraded pets that, while seem to parse fairly decent damage, alot of clerics aren't happy with because they didnt ask for in the first place. this is entirely on the fault of clerics here, they were too busy trying to keep other classes from getting anything instead of trying to balance themselves out.

The problem, as I see it, is that is a 56th level spell, and 50 -55 clerics (who also don't have the 96% xp rez) are going to start hurting in xp groups without something to offer other than healing. <50 clerics should be fine as I don't expect 54th+ level druids and shamans to be competing for group spots as main healer.


Hammer is now a 56, 58 and 60 level spell. A cleric I know with the level 60 hammer says it's about 90% of the pre-nerf hammer that clerics were going nuts with.

But if your point is that hammer-time doesn't start until 56, that's true. Since we're talking about high-blue groups, I assume that we're talking high level characters (56 at least....at this late stage of the game, though, I think of anything under 60 as mid-level, really...:) So no problem with the druids getting the suite of new heals, clerics getting their new improved hammers (and perhaps some additional utility spells) for the 56-60 crowd, right?

I don't see what your concern is for the low 50 set, though. I'm assuming that druids in this range are still stuck with SH and Chloroblast, at best, so druids at this point are even worse off than the higher level druids. (A druid shouldn't get the 3K heal til 56 at the earliest. I'd even say 60, if Nature's Touch drops down.)

If your point is that a higher level druid might drop down and act as a healer for a lower level group, I'll point out that a higher level cleric can do the same. In fact, a higher level cleric with the near-1000 point nuke could drop down to the same group and act as a decent nuker and melee, right? This type of substitution is a problem with ALL roles in a group, and is countered by the lower XP gain the higher levels get in these situations.

BTW, there was a question about what clerics should get to compensate them if druids got the suite of new heals ("Now, if yall had the good heals, what do you think clerics should get to even things up?"). This is a bit backwards. The question is what should DRUIDS get to compensate them for clerics getting their new heals, new melee damage, and other new spells (not to mention correcting the previous IMbalance in healing abilities)?

The answer, of course, is the suite of new heals. Druids should get the new heals not only to compensate them for everything the clerics got in the last patches, but also to rectify the healing imbalance that existed before.

Please don't tell me a cleric is going to argue that clerics should get "compensation" if druids get the new healing spells...:)

All we want is to be desired in groups, just like you.

Umm, the whole point is that we aren't desired in groups.


I agree that clerics need more diversity. Absolutely. 100%. I've played toe class to 40ish level and given up. Boring. Boring. Boring.

Matter of fact, do a search of this site referenceing cleric soloing even. I don't think you will find a single post telling clerics they shouldn't be able to do it.

Using the (now badly nerfed and on top of this lvl 56) hammer to say "we need something now" is a little bit off. I have said in a post earlier that i can now solo a blue mob in 7 minutes (downtime included) rather than in 10 minutes pre-patch when I used root-nuking to kill the odd mob solo.

The improvement is effectively 30% but it is still far, very far, from being anything but laughable.

The lvl 58 hammer isn't for sale anywhere yet, the lvl 60 hammer only drops off the toughest Luclin bosses. Using these 2 for any comparison or justification is totally wrong because only few people will ever see them.

Using parses of the cleric hammer on VT mobs is wrong, using parses of the cleric hammers having the cleric using a 41% haste item with VoG is wrong.

And for the board moderator:

You're missing your job if you're prefering one side over the other. Maybe you should let someone else do it who at least TRY to be impartial.

The calling in this thread should have resulted in some action taken by a moderator, even if just asking people to calm down and refraining from calling names or calling people trolls who don't even troll.

Welcome to EverRagefire! Your mob is ours to race now!

"The lvl 58 hammer isn't for sale anywhere yet, the lvl 60 hammer only drops off the toughest Luclin bosses. Using these 2 for any comparison or justification is totally wrong because only few people will ever see them"


a week after SoL came out there were no 58 spells for sale yet, a few months later they were dirt cheap. don't exclude them from balance just because they've only been in game for a week and aren't widely available yet. As for the 60 hammer, i think it can drop off of any mob that drops 60 SoL spells... certainly not limited to the "toughest" luclin bosses anyway, saw copies drop back to back off of rhag 2 and XTC within a couple hours.

The net result is clerics unable to get xp (effectively or even semi-effectively) due to a lack of being able to do anything else.

Cleric: Heal, Buff
Druid: Heal, Snare, DoT, DD, DS, Buff, Evac


Why do people always do this? It's not nearly this black and white, or is it this simple.

Druids always have snare, dot's, DD, DS Buffs and evacs pointed to while they only show Clerics can heal and buff.

Clerics can also, root mezzed mobs (something druids can't do), Have limited DoT's (undead only), Have DD's (though can't be chain cast), have DS's (though subject to resist checks), have Res (don't know why one would point to evacs but leave out Res, which is far more usefull to groups than Evac), Melee (with new hammer spell and yaulp(my friends cleric averaged 1900pts of procs in one fight AFTER the hammer nerf WITH the level 56 hammer), group heal, Control their own agro, Stun (druids Have 1 indoor "stun" spell. It's not a true stun however, as the duration is about one second. The outdoor versions are the same way) Reverse Damage shields.

If you list 3/4's of a druids abilities and then only list 1/10th of your own for comparision, of course it's going to look drastic. And let's not forget, Some skills are far more usefull than others.

Arvor, what would a level 38 druid know about the damage or healing in the high end game?

"The improvement is effectively 30% but it is still far, very far, from being anything but laughable."

How close to a Druids soloing capabilities do you expect to be? Remember, your the most desired class by far on raids, arguably the most desired class for exp groups maybe tied with Enchanters, so i hope you can at least be reasonable where you expect your lvl of soloability to be.
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"The lvl 58 hammer isn't for sale anywhere yet, the lvl 60 hammer only drops off the toughest Luclin bosses. Using these 2 for any comparison or justification is totally wrong because only few people will ever see them."

Are you sure? I've read reports of people getting the 58 Hammer spell dropping off of regular mobs in Sraa. I could be wrong, but i could've sworn i read that. Somehow i doubt they'll be anywhere as rare as ancient spells, since thats how you seem to equate its rarity.
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"Using parses of the cleric hammer on VT mobs is wrong, using parses of the cleric hammers having the cleric using a 41% haste item with VoG is wrong."

I agree, i'd much rather see parsing of an average lvl 60 Cleric on average exp group mobs. That said, i've grouped with a Cleric using the hammer in a Pits group in Velks. He was a lvl 60 Cleric btw, but i didnt have other peoples hits on, so i wasnt really following his damage or proc rate. I do know when he stopped healing, and would melee, it was definitely noticeable that mobs were being killed faster. He even stated he got 3 procs in a row at one point, but again, i wasnt followinig the damage he did in total. I'll start paying more attention to this for now on, so i can get a better gauge if Clerics are exxagerating how gimp the hammer is, or their justified in their complaints.

Arvor, get some more levels before you make more silly comments: ie.

That would be like saying a druid can easily solo, oh, let's say Faydedar because since druids can use mana-free DoTs they can just kite him around forever. Theoretically, purely by the numbers, it's probably possible. And I'd laugh at that suggestion just as much.

Faydedar summons... As do most mobs that give good exp in the upper game. A shaman may be able to Solo Fay but druids do not have the DPS, Slow or heal to do it. Necros may be able to with fear and pet. Druids would just get summoned, disrupted, DD'd and chewed up. But then from your sig I guess you wouldn't know that yet.

The Druid spell is lv 54 and a 75% heal so to do the 3k (currently 2.5k on test) the tank would have to have 4k hp. to do 3k healing at lv 54 cost 1500 mana, at 55 it cost 1225. But then at 56 a cleric DD's for 925 at 325 mana while a Druid DD's for 688 for 250 mana.

I group with many hybrid tanks with more than 3k hp and primary tanks over 5k and I am a Priest and supposed to be a primary healer. Once you get above lv 54 you will see how ironic it is to have two priest classes where one takes over half of a mana bar to heal up a tank to the point that another priest 15 levels lower expends 400 mana points to heal in less than a third of the time.

Right now by your sig I can see your confusion since until resently you could heal just as effectively as a cleric except for the rare instances where they CH. When your tanks are getting hit for Duel to quad 300's per turn you will see the difference.

" Cleric: Heal, Buff
Druid: Heal, Snare, DoT, DD, DS, Buff, Evac "

More like:
Cleric: Heal, Buff, Rez
Druid: Heal worse, Buff worse/same, DS, Evac


You wait throwing out nuke bombs and DOTs as mana is needed for less efficient heals.
I can't think of anyone who would prefer an evac to a 90% plus rez.


Please get over the fact that it is harder (not impossible or likely even a hardship) for Clerics to get good group. I mean duh? The other priests being given the power to heal "to some degree" make one assume that they can heal groups for EXP.

Far as EQcleric goes, Rayne has drawn the line. He/She (dont blame me I dont know which it is!) has stated that the blatant disregard for civility wont be tolerated on EQCleric. Rayne doesnt want to read more Druid/Cleric comparisons and more point/counterpoint that devolves into flames, namecalling and "you suck" contests.

I will tell you one thing. Before EQclerics went to the new board there were a LOT less trolls. The biggest concern we had was Ragefire. There were occasional threads about improving the class but generally we did our thing and let other classes do theirs.

We have bumped heads with Druids, Necros and Paladins as abilities that were solely the clerics began to be parcelled out to other classes. At the same time we got heal, buff and nuking upgrades along with 2 very nice versatility spells the Marks. MOK = nerfed heavily and still remains only marginally viable. The nukes were something that almost no one wanted us to cast and as mob damage soared upward our already marginal damage output and melee abilities became even more apparent especially when we tried to solo.

The average poster on EQ cleric doesnt hate druids. The average poster is tired of watch people slug it out with each other on the boards with some people having not even a shred of respect for the other side. Notice I said some people because hey, not everyone on both sides is throwing mud and hurling insults. Ive gone overboard myself, but hey, its time to start THINKING before you post things are little more than veiled insults to the one class or the other or the people making the posts.


Belkram Marrwolf, married to an environmentalist with attitude, also known as a Druid!


PS Yo Tuved!! /BBsalute

"its time to start THINKING before you post things are little more than veiled insults to the one class or the other or the people making the posts."



I don't think I have read anything here in the last week that makes as much sense as this.

Arvor, what would a level 38 druid know about the damage or healing in the high end game?


I also play a 52 cleric... got bored and frustrated a few weeks ago and went back to Arvor (my original "main") and am actually playing him to get some experience (instead of just to have fun porting, buffing newbies, tradeskilling, etc.). Still levelling slowly, because old habits (of porting people etc.) die hard, I'm easily distracted at times ;) , and I can't play as much as I'd like.

but surely, people realize that changes (those in Live and those still -unfortunately- on Test) will have ramifications beyond the "high end game", whether that is defined as 56+, 60 with AAs, or someplace inbetween.

Oh, and btw, I do understand the difference between the 3K heal (which needs to go Live sooner rather than later) and the 4-6K that mid-50s clerics can routinely heal for. It was the hyperbole of implying that a 39 cleric can regularly heal for 10K that amused me. I often exaggerate myself to make a point, and am a firm believer in "lies, damn lies, and statistics" (in that numbers can be manipulated to show false conclusions, even inadvertently).