And if you look at all these changes, they still dont give a druid a real role on a raid, you can still easily get by with 0 druids there.

If it makes you feel better, when my guilds raid, druids are always spot healers, and AE healers. They do a damn good job at it, and usually we have 5-6 there, depending on what we are doing.

Its possible to get by with 0 druids there. You are correct. You can also get by with 0 necromancers there. You can also get by with 0 shadowknights there. You can also get by with 0 monks there. You can also get by having 0 paladins there. You can also get by having 0 wizards there. You can also get by having 0 bards there. You can also get by having 0 Rangers there. You can also get by having 0 beastlords there.

Do you see where I am getting at?

Aladain

Druids asked verant to fix the VS epic part to remove bitterness and contention because the spawn was fought over.

That wasn't a one class change. That was three classes depending on one mob for epic drops. It was also two classes depending on the same drop for their epic. That wasn't a druid change, it was a druid, ranger, wizard change.

Druids asked for the healing penalty to be removed. GRANTED

Yes, druids asked for it, but how many classes does it effect? It effects all but one class. It was just a good idea that druids happened to come up with vocally (not even sure another class didn't have the idea first).

Druids asked for a DL type heal and a Remedy type heal. GRANTED

Druids complained (along with shaman) that SH came too late and the fizzle rate was broken. VI moved SH to 51, gave us another heal at 55 that was faster but almost the same ratio, and then gave us another one at 60 that was bigger and slower but still the same ratio. The healing penalty removal was a bigger boost to our healing effiency than those two spells were.

it finally put you in your spot imo in reguards to healing

So, in your opinion, our spot in healing effeciency should be where you were at level 34?

Druids asked for Root and Snare to be fixed. GRANTED

Actually, I don't know if any druids actually asked for that. It was a problem that affected other classes more than ours since they couldn't use root (or earth pets) when someone was snaring. Now, we did ask for a long time to have the damage portion of our root fixed, and after a very long time of telling us it wasn't broken, they fixed it. Of course, the first fix didn't work and it took another month to convince them that it was still broken and we finally got it fixed.

Druids asked for CH or something close and it looks like you might be getting it (When was the last time a spell was put on test that didnt make it live?).

This is nowhere near CH. It isn't even a 50% heal on most tanks. I believe that lures were made unresistable the other day and then changed back. That may have been a mistake though. The did have mage pets summoning time down to one second earlier this year, but I don't think that went live. Group invis was in testing before SoV, but didn't make it live until SoL. I believe a group levitate was also on test before SoV. There are probably a ton more that most people don't know about that were put on test and then changed.

Warriors have been asking for more DPS (Monk, Ranger, Rogue >>> Warrior), and it falls on deaf ears.

Actually, warriors aren't too worried about their dps. They just had that balanced and most warriors will tell you dps isn't what they are about. Most complaints are about the way taunt works (or doesn't work), and the fact that other melee classes can mitigate damage as well as they can. Without defensive, high end monks actally tank better than a warrior. And the knight classes tank almost as well with taunt that almost never fails. Warriors would just like to be the best at mitigation and have a somewhat reliable taunt.

Druids are too wrapped up in the fact that THEY aren't BETTER than another class in a area that THAT class is supposed to be the best. They whine, and whine, and quite frankly have been given what they wanted but does it satisfy them? No they whine more, they want this, they want that, they get it and aren't happy with it.

Scroll up to the top of the page and read the title. It sayd The DRUIDS Grove. Of course druids are going do discuss druid issues here. It seems to me that it is the other classes coming HERE that are more worried about what other classes are getting. The only whining going on here is the trolls from other classes coming here whining that druids are finally getting some class improvements. What you also see a lot of here is clerics coming here, telling us we don't need improvements, then telling us what improvements they need. Then you will see many druids saying clerics do need improvements. Why is the hatered of druids so one way?

You complain druids aren't the best at something, hell at least you CAN. DO ANY of you play a MAIN character other than a druid? Obviously not.

Check my sig, I play two main characters that are both higher level than you. I also have a level sixty paladin and have played a level sixty cleric. Come back when you have some more experience please.

I for one will be very happy if this goes live, heck I may even start playing again.

I still think we need some sort of rez spell....even 50% would be great.

But the heal is a nice start!

Korwyn
Retired Druid

No but I have alts higher than your main =p


Sorry to burst your bubble but no, you don't.

This is my necro's account for the necro forum, I also have a 60 mage wich I don't play due to being replaced with my necro. Granted my mage has no AA points or decent gear, due to my lack of playtime on him post-SoL.

So yeah, what was your point?

BTW , My posts were directed at those druids who complained that a 3k heal isn't 'good' enough.

It seems to me that clerics are more efficient at doing group heals to AEs with their Word group heal lines.


So why not put the druids in CH chains since many CHes are only for half (2000-3000hps) anyway depending on the timing.

And have the clerics out in groups to do the AE heals.

:)

Note: Any more flames, and you'll have to deal with me. :D Please keep the debates to debating and cut the personal attacks.

"He has a brain! Insight! And knowledge, wich most of you whiners don't."


Actually, i think thats why we're able to get changes. Other class boards are filled with cry-babies like yourself that are so jealous a class that deserverd an upgrade finally got one, that you feel the need to go over to theyre class board and whine about necro's on theyre board. I could care less about your concerns, make a petition, make an argument why you need improvements like we've done. Obviously you cant, so half of you jump on our wagon trying to pitch your class changes on a Druid board. Thats what i call dumb.


"We already have enough agro issues than to add a 3k heal to the agro list. It sorta begs the question of while I'm casting this 10 second spell, who's going to be back up healing the others in the group?

Who's gonna cast that fast chlory so the tank doesn't die before CH hits? Who's going to heal the Chanter or Shammy or even the cleric while I'm 10 second healing someone? "

Ummm, ever hear of choosing? Like using what best fits the scenario? Nobody's stopping you from patching, or casting chloroblasts and NT's. Nobody's also stopping you from casting Druid-CH's if the situation dictates it. Hypothetically, lets say your short 2 clerics for a CH rotation. How about plugging 3 or 4 Druids in there with a faster CH count to make up for the 2 missing clerics? Then have the rest of the Druids and Shamans on patch heals and nukes. Raid goes on, CH chain isnt perfect but good enough, and everyone is happy.

On the other hand, if Druids dont get this ability, nobody can raid that night due to lack of clerics. And if your in a guild that doesnt have the luxury of having all the clerics in the world, then this benefits you greatly. I know for a fact the uber guilds get the pick of the litter when it comes to classes, and right now its clerics leaving the lesser guilds short. Yeah, i guess none of us are supposed to raid because the mechanics of raiding currently rely on CH so much that if you dont have the Clerics you dont have a raid. Basically, your probably going to be asked to fill more particular roles because we have that option now. I just dont understand the idea that your worried about Aggro when nobody is twisting your arm to use it, then debuff, then patch, then nuke. Are you the only druid doing everything on all your raids?


"Did you read my post? I commented in a few places that I think some druid upgrades in the past were really nice. The difference is I distinctly remember reading here when the debate over Chrolo and NT was nbeing done, and druids said "This will fix us for healing!!!", and IMO, it DID, but I should have known better"

I just find this very ignorant. Do you even know what chloroblast and NT do? How much mana they cost? Where these heals rate in respect to what Shamans and Clerics are capable of? That mobs and players are consistently gaining more hp's, which necessitates the need for upgraded heals to match that HP inflation? Obviously you dont, because you would know that Chloroblast and NT have practically the same mana efficiency, in fact its a running joke here that NT = Chloroblast x's 2. Its pretty much true. Did ya know Shamans have Chloroblast as well?

Sure, give us those rare examples where you had a Druid main healing your group in CT just fine w/o a slower. And how that Druid was better than any cleric for that group because we're just so overpowered. Personally, i would loved to have seen it for myself, and seen what you happened to leave out, like sitting for 10 minutes after every pull. The thing is so many classes think they know Druids, but they have no idea. Then come to this board giving us these ignorant opinions of why we're considered 'whiners'. We're not whiners, your just ignorant people that claim to speak about stuff you have no clue about. 3/4's of you gimps can only read the first post of a thread, and think thats what everyone in the community is thinking. I swear some of you people out there are just retarded. Its like this thread, you have the same retards talking about how Druids will never be happy, when there are barely any complaints in this thread.

Anyways, go back to your class boards and work on your petition if you think you need upgrades. Your not going to get any sympathy here, especially when none of you seem to know much about Druids or their issues.

Yep put all the druids in the roatation and put all the Clerics in the caster groups where their Group Heals can do some good.

now my druid bot is even more useful for PL my paladin :)

Actually it’s really doesn’t concern necros in anyway. Its priest update and so let Cleric, Shaman and Druid fight over it. But we all can voice our opinion here or not?

Well in anyway it’s an interesting and long awaited change. In raids Cleric is still the one who will be needed over Shaman or Druid to heal. And if you think different you should start to raid. In groups? Sure you don’t need cleric in a lot of groups now even with out this heal. But you will have to be nut not to take a cleric in your group. Heck everyone will need a rez one time or the other (hehe how is it to be one spell class now?). Will it go pass test server? Who knows? I bet VI mailing server went kaboom today with all emails from people who love and hate this. Have fun with this flame war here but look out they are watching and you all not helping this to much with your crying of %’s and caps.


Hedien 60 Necromancer
Kalanar 56 Cleric
Alanor 54 Druid
Mith Marr

I view all the class bigotry as a smokescreen to the real issues. Any class that is well played is now, and will continue to be an asset on a large scale raid or in a exp group. I have seen many druids and clerics who were just plain bad at playing this game. I personally look forward to having a spell in my arsenal that has a snowballs chance of keeping my fellow raiders alive.

If this kind of heal does indeed make it off test it wont automatically make a druid preferable to a well played cleric like many of the posters in this thread seem to envision.

But any cleric who wants to read a book and hit a button once in a while may be in for a surprise. Likewise if you have soloed your druid to 60 and now think you have an automatic in with Uber_guild_01 i wish you best of luck up front.

My concern with this spell, Sobe, is the lack of some aggro mitigation. ;)

Grats Druids. I'm very happy for you. Clerics can really use some help on raids. Its going to take some time to learn how to use it efficiently but you'll learn quickly.

A few post referenced faithstones, well we werent' "given" those. Mine cost me 15kpp. My fault for not having my skills up.

Is your pet really worse than ours? Ours that has 100hp and suicides?

As for this spell harming clerics grouping. Of course it will, I cant get a group now and this will make it more difficult. Lets just hope VI is going to deal with this somehow.

I wouldn;t worry about ch chains too much. Healing the mage makind mod rods, clerics modding, helping on the rampage heals is probably where this will be most useful.


Menleniel-58 Templar

Exedor says: What planet are you from man? I have a 60 druid and 59 cleric, do you? CH owns EVERYTHING a druid can do COMBINED and that's a fact.

The only arena CH "owns" is multi-group raids, because it's the only heal spell fast enough and efficient enough to allow a reasonable number of people to defeat the target. Outside of those raids, the power and versatility of a druid in healing, buffing, dealing damage, and mitigating damage far outweigh the mana efficiency of CH. If that weren't true, you wouldn't be playing a druid, certainly not a level 60 druid.

With a 75% CH, druids will not only become godly outside of raids, but they will also serve a vital raid role, instead of a peripheral one.

As for this spell harming clerics grouping. Of course it will, I cant get a group now and this will make it more difficult. Lets just hope VI is going to deal with this somehow.


This won't really make getting a group more difficult for you. Read Trevize's post above. Druids are in the same boat as far as XP grouping as clerics are. The melee types don't really need either of us for XPing anymore.

The current advantage druids have over clerics is that we can solo better than you can. Clerics ought to get some spells to help them solo. Alternatively, we priest types ought to duo up ourselves. I'll root, you nuke.

By the way clerics might be getting an upgraded heal as "compensation":

<a href=http://lucy.fnord.net/spellhistory.html?id=2182&source=Test>http://lucy.fnord.net/spellhistory.html?id=2182&source=Test</a>

<a href=http://lucy.fnord.net/spellhistory.html?id=2180&source=Test>http://lucy.fnord.net/spellhistory.html?id=2180&source=Test</a>

1600 hp, 5 sec casting, 525 mana.

and a HoT:

1200 hp, 300 per tick, 4 ticks, 5.5 sec casting, group, 1050 mana

So really they were just throwing us a bone while the clerics get the real healing upgrades.

To the clerics who say ask if our pet is really worse than theirs... Boo boo is usually in the neighborhood of level 25. Sure we can give him 75% haste, but that just makes him miss faster. A single riposte from an XP mob will usually kill him, and he almost never hits an xp mob. His only real use is tradeskill farming (silk threads, pelts, ect). He is quite useful for that.

"but that just makes him miss faster."

The only thing funnier than that is this:

www.tolkiencollector.com/bbaggins.mov (http://www.tolkiencollector.com/bbaggins.mov)



Good posts tonight.

/smile.

By the way clerics might be getting an upgraded heal as "compensation":
ROFL...I have no problem with those spells, but wasn't the idea to make clerics more diverse and versatile by NOT giving them more heals but by giving them some nice damage and utility spells?

So really they were just throwing us a bone while the clerics get the real healing upgrades.

This is a fallacy. Clerics needed a healing upgrade in the same way that you needed a True South spell.

Show me a 60 cleric and I'll show you someone who, before these changes, was already nuking away a lot of their mana in an xp group in order to avoid sitting there FM for minutes on end.

What clerics needed was a certain amount of versatility. Another option... just as being main healer in an XP group is now another option for a druid.

We needed haste, slow, snare, sow, invis. We got more of the things we don't need and none of the things we did.

Oh, and we got a self-only melee buff which will raise our combat potential to that of an enchanter. Shamans will still outmelee us (but then they outperformed us in xp groups before, were already among the best soloers in the game where we were among the worst, and were essential to raids. What else is new ?)

Speaking as a cleric, as I've already posted, these changes had the potential to be a positive thing for clerics by reducing the overwhelming pressure on a cleric to be present at particular raids and camps. Everyone could have benefitted by freeing up cleric time to do other things, particularly if the cleric had the versatility to do these things.

But now, no. Wake up and smell the coffee:- the cleric value to a typical XP group is gone because a druid can heal the group almost as effectively as I did before and a load of other things besides.

Tanks only have 7k hp on raids with a load of buffs stacked on them. You'll find that an xp group buffed tank might be on around 5.5k hp (if he has much more than this, he's so uber he's better off without a healer anyway) and that a 2925hp heal that takes 10 seconds to cast will enable you to keep him fully healed while still doing other things. You'll also note that NT is more than adequate to keep your chanter standing.

That leaves us with no utility or versatility as the price we pay for running round rezzing people, spending our peridots on casting Aego on other people, and being summoned to raids for more melee phat lewts.

Anyone want to buy a 60 epic cleric account ? After I've finished PLing my shaman with it I won't be needing it any more.

I feel sorry for the clerics who would be happy with an invis spell , slow undead , port , or whatever "gift" given to the class in compensation of this "sham/druid CH" .

When you will LFG for an hour, because we re not needed anymore in groups, i guess you will invis yourself or port somewhere else -))))

What makes the added value of cleric CH are the AC/HP buff and the symbol line. A tank with less HP means more CH, so more inefficient and more you have to heal more you generate aggro . I'm not talking about raid but standard xp group . With the low ac of the druid class and the high dmg of the mobs in xp group 54-60, I guess the rez business have a very good future .

Foxfyre says: wasn't the idea to make clerics more diverse and versatile by NOT giving them more heals

Why? If this change goes through, druids won't be made more diverse, just more powerful in a core ability. Those spells do the same for clerics.

Now if druids received mesmerize, slow, clarity, haste, real melee ability, or even BooBoo's big (BIG) brother, you might have a point.

The idea here seems to be to make all three priests better healers, probably in preparation for some ridiculous encounters in PoP. Verant has a long history of cleverly nerfing classes behind the players' backs by giving them powerful abilities (to make them believe they've been enhanced), while simultaneously making the NPCs twice more powerful. <img src=http://lag9.com/biggrin.gif>

I'll take that group HOT spell anyday over this gimpish version of CH ;p. Low aggro and lets you heal your group which is what druids usually end up doing on raids.

Actually, I suggested a very similar spell to that improved DL earlier today (mine was 1.8k, 600 mana, 3.5 casting time, theirs is 1.6k, 525 mana, 5 casting time). Pretty close. I think there is room for a cleric healing upgrade between the level 53 divine light and the level 59 celestial elixir. This new spell should be 56/57. Good idea.

The group HoT is decent also.

I still think clerics need to be able to solo; it's the only thing we're missing. If we can't get a group, we have no options.

As for the cleric who came on here and ranted about druids requesting changes and getting them, for Chrissakes, dude, druids have been underpowered at high levels for like 2 years. Shamans could slow/torpor, clerics could heal amazingly well, but druids just couldn't be the main healer in a group all that effectively. Now none of it really matters because of all the gimp zones in the game like Velks, Seb, and FG (healer? what's that?) The 6-man group could be a reality again in zones like The Deep, Akheva, Ssra; but it would require VI to make a really hefty grouping bonus and big xp mult for those zones to encourage people to take the "riskier" path (they're decent xp as is, but they should be way better than killing gimp spiders in Velks). But, anyway, this druid heal is a good thing; it lets druids be good healers finally. (I personally would have liked to see them become King of Damage Shields; a way to add more dmg to the group, but improved healing powers are also nice).

Legynd / High Priest / Magister

Hehe if this spell ever makes it to live servers and if i get a copy i dont think ill tell anyone about it, though its a nice spell to have my 978 pnt heal does well while soloing, on raids im to busy doing other things to worry about healing, maybe a spot heal here or there while im bouncing around nuking, debuffing, cabbageing, fire/cold resisting, regrowing, doting ect. and my guild has come to realize this and dont depend on me to keep anyone alive, seems to work well for us :).

Sadly i see this spell forcing Druids into a category that I at least refuse to be placed in. I am not a cleric, I am a Druid DAMNIT!!!!
heh i envision that last sentence to ring out across all of norrath about a week after this spell goes live.

just a note, yaulp V on test for clerics, nice 10mana/tick, cool spell:

Slot Description
1: Increase ATK by 50
3: Increase DEX by 75
4: Decrease Stamina Loss by 10
5: Increase Attack Speed by 25%
6: Increase Mana by 10 per tick


Mana: 25 Skill: Abjuration
Casting Time: 0.5 Recast Time: 18
Fizzle Time: 2.25 Resist: N/A
Range: 0 Location: Any
Time of Day: Any Target Type: Self
Spell Type: Beneficial Source: Test 08/21


Classes: CLR/56
Duration: 4 ticks


Cast on you: You feel a surge of strength as you let forth a mighty yaulp.
Cast on other: Someone lets loose a mighty yaulp..
Wears off: Your surge of strength fades.

Wierd spell, casting cost 25 and then regen 10*4=40 mana. A gain of 15 mana isnt exactly alot, I wonder why they put it in even.

Hmmm, wow. Interesting things are brewing on the Test server, aren't they? Is there anyone on Test who reads these boards who knows how the heal works? Does anyone know if AA skills like HA and HG affect the new heals? This discussion could use more specific information.

Many people have come to the conclusion that the Petition and whining are the causes of recent changes to Druid healing. IMO, that is a bad conclusion. Repeat: correlation is not the same as causation. Yes, there was a Petition and whining. Yes, changes were made. No, this doesn't imply that whining -> upgrades.

Perhaps there is another agent causing both of these things to occur. Maybe, (just maybe) current Druid heals aren't good enough. This could cause some uproar on the Druid message board. Independently, it could also cause a Company, concerned with maintaining a balanced, playable, enjoyable game to make some changes.

I don't mean to discredit folks who put effort into the Petition or other posts on Druidic shortcomings, but I do believe it is a bit early for the BDC to start patting itself on the back for a job well done. BDs may speak the truth, but until VI comes to the boards and says, "Thanks for your suggestions, the State of the Druid along with Rants 1-578 were really what opened our eyes to problems with the Priests" we shouldn't reinforce the idea that causing a stir on message boards leads to class improvements. Being right and being responsible are two different things.


I hope these spells go live, even if it will make AA choices even more difficult. (Dire Charm, anyone?) Smaller guilds will have a better chance at Kunark and SoV encounters. Putting a decent group together will be easier than before. With 3 good healing classes, maybe more single group encounters could be designed to reward groups with a good healing team. One might even want a cleric *and* a druid for healing and backup. Sounds like fun to me :p

-Quelm

Interesting changes. As people have said I think we need to wait to see what is actually implemented.
I look forward to my Druid peers adding more healing to top-end gigs.

Just a few comments and a bit of a reality check.

I spend a lot of time in CH cycles and the amount of HP a tank has when CH lands varies a lot. CH is NOT timed based on how much HP a tank has left but purely on an arbitrary time value. It may land when the tank is close to full, typically the tank will not be low enough to frenzy.
If you live too close to the edge, you will fall off, if the MT dies then you lose DPS, have to tank swop and it may cost you the match, therefore some safety margin is built into CH cycles.

Most tanks don't have 7.5k hp, a well equipped and buffed tank from a tier4 guild may have 6.5k. I don't know what proportion of tanks have 7k plus but I think they are in the minority.

The point of those two comments - CH isn't healing for 7.5k hp, typically 2-4k is closer to the mark. In this context, the new Druid heals are more effective as gap heals than some people are suggesting.

Comments on comments -

'their cheap mana pet to help (their pet owns poor boo boo).'

600mana for a 100hp pet that lasts for the duration of one mob then disapears (if it doesnt get riposted to death after a few seconds) ? sorry but booboo Ownz the 'Unswerving Waste of Mana'.

'This is nowhere near CH. It isn't even a 50% heal on most tanks'

I think it is pretty close to a 50percent heal and also close to the actual amount that CH typically lands for in big mob/CH cycle gigs. For non-cycle situations e.g. hard hitting hall trash where a single Cleric is timing CH based on tank HP then I would expect CH to land when the tank still has 1 bub of health left. On a 6.5k tank that means CH is healing 5200hp. 3k isn't a replacement for CH but it does a decent job of getting close.

'It seems to me that clerics are more efficient at doing group heals to AEs with their Word group heal lines'

Group heals are mostly not efficient in terms of mana for actual hp healed, they are also very situational.

You all are,,,,way to serious.

Ok, regardless of anything that happens to druids, shaman, or any other class in the game, I am really, REALLY sure that every cleric playing right now became a cleric knowing exactly what a cleric did! It is ridiculous to blow a fuse about you class being unable to do other things when all that class is supposed to do is heal and ressurect people! That is the entire focus and design of the class since day one of everquest!

There has always been and will always be a need for that highly focused class in the game, so the issue here is how to make the other priest classes, that gave up that massive focus in healing, the ability to accomplish some healing at the highest end of the game. I am pretty certain nobody in their right mind started a cleric in EQ planning to be a utility class or a nuker... if so, they made an honest mistake and should start over with a druid/shaman or wizard to fill the role they meant to choose...

All that being said, I am not the unhappy druid type and I find it very easy to do the things I want to with my druid - I just played healer for a group of 6 on a Grieg fight and 4 were melee - it sucked to try to keep up, and they had to retreat around the corner a couple times when they all took alot of damage at the same time, but I kept em all up! (used about 15 mod rods though heheh) If we need a new heal it is a GROUP HEAL or something like that - maybe a massive version of regrowth for the group... 75 a tick or something 8 )

Hell, I want the group celestial that clerics have on test right now hahah.

Anyway - all you folks drive me nuts with your lack of satisfaction with the classes! Seems odd to me that people think they have some right to have their character work the way they want exactly... that is like bitching at Wizards of the Coast about D&D classes not doing things you want - IT IS THEIR GAME! You pick a class and play it...

- Venerable Naldiian Stormfury

Heh, whoa! Those are some nifty changes to clr abilities.

Really, I wish folks would stop saying "we need sow." Everyone basically got sow with runspeed 3.

Ports, yeah they are a nice thing. PoP and the nexus will really cut down on their absolute power.

Otherwise I see it as:
Druids have ds / Clr have reverse ds
Druids have ports / Clr have res
Druids have nukes / Clr have nukes (dru > clr)
Druids have hp buffs / Clr have hp buffs (clr >> dru)
Druids have dots / Clr superior healing abilites

Druids have ensnare, charm animal, some utility spells, and a useless pet.

Clr have divine intervention, divine aura, better armor, fear, some utility spells, and a useless pet.

Honestly, I think clerics should get levitation and enduring breath. I think clr should also get invis if they are willing to give up invis vs undead. Also, I think peridot restrictions should be reduced or removed.

Seriously, other classes need improved healing abilities. Hp's and mob damage output have just escalated so far above what they were since healing abilities were changed last. The spells added weren't ridiculous by any means.

I think it kind of depends on the time it takes to cast if I view this spell as useful for raid situations.

"..The spell is currently set at Level 54. The spell would only heal 75% of the target players hitpoints up to a maximum of 2925 for Druids and 1950 for Shamen."

People might be going "WHOO WHOO YAY!" but if this is a 10 second cast or whatever, probably as long as complete heal at least, I'll still mainly be casting chloroblast I bet on raids. The one time this spell would be cool is spaming the ch chain, perhaps alternating with chloroblast. Of course for non raids its a great spell and makes a druid seen as a more likely small group partner. Problem is that often a cleric is threre for the other thing it can do, resurrect.

It is nice though, a spiffy big tank heal if they stick it in. Oh, I know why the shaman one is smaller:

Shaman don't heal.

I've seen that time and again, when my druid was in a group I heal or jump in and heal to keep a person alive the cleric is CH'ing (yeah, chloroblast is wimpy until its the reason why the tank is still standing) Meanwhile the shaman is standing there after slowing and malising or something and never healing at all. They kind of have other things to do while in a small group its best for the druid to heal and land some dots (manaless even) since they only other thing they'd do is nuke pretty much, which is pointless with tanks.

problem is clerics are not >> druids are buffing they are about equal put together.... any class can be looked at singluarly and said to be good but you need to look at it in context and the context is potg + marzins mark > aego by far... the classes need to stack and clerics will have stacking issues a bit with these things... all the classes together should be > a single class which is actually how things are right now other than druids inability to stack on raids.

However I do not view 75p complete heal as a solution to this problem. As a druid we field many important spells and i think with the dot changes we might end up overpowered with so many different abilities.... this is just my opinion and I am not sure I do play a druid and I know on a raid its already important to have spot healers but you dont need alot of them which creates the stacking issues.... What I see VI as trying to do is push druids into the main healing area attempting to let us stack more.

This will result IMO in one of 2 things 1) Druids can replace a cleric or are still not needed solving nothing... both of these create problems of there own and do not fix anything.

The second result would be mobs are retuned to force druids into a more single target healing area... where alot of druids and clerics can be used together to heal well... this I would think would be clerics are healing the main dmg and using spot heals with some druids while other druids and clerics assist in healing multipul rampage tanks or heal AEs.... If tis change is to work there is no doubt in my mind the game will need to be made harder.

My comment about low mana cleric pet was in regards to the upcoming changes to make it a 250 mana cost and a 2.5 second cast time ;p. That could make it more viable for clerics to solo if they give clerics an undead-only snare or something similar. Otherwise the pet will mostly just be used for long-lasting uber mobs (for 250 mana + 2.5 second cast time its not a big deal to cast unlike 600 mana/slow cast time where it wasnt worth bothering). The new cleric heals will also be extremely nice with some mana cost reductions - make the group HOT cost 900ish mana and it will definitely be used, at 1050 mana its just too high of cost. I'd also change the direct heal to either 475 or 500 mana.

>>My comment about low mana cleric pet was in regards to the upcoming changes to make it a 250 mana cost and a 2.5 second cast time ;p. That could make it more viable for clerics to solo if they give clerics an undead-only snare or something similar. <<

Regardless of how long it takes to cast this spell, how much mana it uses or how long it takes to refresh it, it only has 100hp and ONLY lasts till the mob you cast it against dies.

There is no way that spell is gonna be useful in anything BUT high end raids. Soloing with it? Id rather save the mana to recast root 100 times like I have to.

I think the mana reductions are factored into that... seeing as most clerics get spec alteration (11 precent reduction in mana cost) and a mana 3 item is easy to get its already down to like 800 mana with SCM its down another 10 - 15 precent to 700 which is very reasonable.... you have to consider the paladins are left without the 11 precent spec reduction and it needs to be factored in when making balanced cleric spells...

(all values of mana reduction found using ShowEQ so i trust they are fairly acurate)

Shaman do heal but there heal is more of a Heal over time (torpor) so the fast spot heals fall to the druid like you said... the shaman heal is smaller because the shaman can most likely cast it twice as much as a druid. If your shm has the HP of around 3250 buffed (most do high end) then there heal also gets them a free 700 mana every 3 minutes for no health cause they can just use the heal and be full health again. (Canni 5)

The way i see this being handled on raids is druids will be put into rotations with it... it will allow the druids to spot heal for greater dmg and keep them coming.. at a rate of probably 4 seconds per... while chloroblast will be used if there are not enough druiids to do this... chloro is usually not effective alone in most high end fights because the mobs DPS is to great for 400 hp to make a difference.. therefor the need to spam the heals in groups of 5 or so... the new heal will allow 1 druid to heal for a large amount while the others med... rotating to the next druid as the next small heal is needed.

Small heals high end are needed to fast to be planed you cant really look at the MT health and say hmm he is kinda low i should heal because by the time you get one off he is either dead or CHed... this creates the need to just spam them and the rotation would not do much more than this other than offering some of the druids a longer period of downtime to med and be ready for their turn..

Also I would not expect to see this spell added at lv 54 it will most likely be 60 and is mostlikely only 54 for the purpose of letting more druids on test try it out and well test it.

I'm sorry clerics are clearly superior to druids in ac/hp buffing. A cleric can raise ac/hp more than twice as much as druids can.

Again, healing ability of classes has just not kept pace with dmg output of mobs and hp increases of pc's. Some change needs to be made. Perhaps this isn't it, but honestly, if you look at it, you will see this has been a long long time in coming.

I as a shaman feel that the druid/shaman bickering is sad. Both classes are fine just they way they are. Both classes have good points and bad points.

Dots- Shaman good,Druid decent
Buffs- Shaman Very good, Druid Very good(yes your buffs are
Good)
Nukes-Shaman decent, Druid very good
Snare- Shaman none, Druid very good
Regen- Shaman very good, Druid very good
Ports- Shaman none, Druids Exellent
Slow- Shaman Best, Druids none
Debuffs -Shaman Very good, Druids good
Heals -Shaman good, Druids good

For all you druids that think you "need" a shaman for slow ... a enchanters is only 5% behind ours,and you only need 4 shaman on a raid for slows/buffs any more and they are backup healing just like you. Torpor .. HAHA that spells is stupid rare ... and thats AFTER they upped the drop rate i was INSANE rare and it has a snare/slow effect. Malo ... mages get one that is 10% behind it.

You want to talk about pimped out abilties shaman are soooooo pimped out to other classes, Malo = mages, Stat buffs = items in game,AVATAR OUR LEVEL 60 BUFF items!!!. You name a buff/dot/DD/slow and look and you will almost find that another class has it or it's on a item.

Druids are good at what verant designed them to be ... a Jack-of-all trades. A well rounded versitile class .... and that is what they are. Not specializing in anything. I think the spell on test is overpowering for shaman and clerics. The enchanter is right ... why get a cleric in a EXP group in seb/velks when we can bring those spells to the table and so much more. I think shaman should get nothing and druids should get NT that casts faster for like 15% less mana,or make it so you can only cast it in the raid zones that it is needed, anything more and we will take what left the clerics have of EXP groups. These are views of a shaman

Thank you for your time

Ujust Jealous
Iksar Luminary
Karana

Both classes are fine just they way they are
Shamans are fine the way they are; druids are not. A quick reading of Crucible will show that shamans know druids have been underpowered for years and that shamans are mostly happy with their class design and would never pick to be a druid or switch to one of equal or highest level because druids have been underdeveloped.

So really they were just throwing us a bone while the clerics get the real healing upgrades.

Here's a quarter, go buy a clue. Until and unless clerics get a faster CH, they won't get a healing upgrade.

What makes the added value of cleric CH are the AC/HP buff and the symbol line. A tank with less HP means more CH, so more inefficient and more you have to heal more you generate aggro . I'm not talking about raid but standard xp group . With the low ac of the druid class and the high dmg of the mobs in xp group 54-60, I guess the rez business have a very good future .

You have obviously never played a tank OR a cleric. The average tank (WAR/SHD/PAL) at level 60 will have 4.5k or so hp fully buffed. If you don't have a shaman in the group, he will have about 4.1k.

In most xp groups, a cleric will begin casting a CH when the tank is down to 2 bubbles of health, and it will generally land before he is down to 1 bubble. That means that tank just got healed for about, you guessed it, 75% of his total hp. That also means that average tank just got healed for 3.3-3.4k hp. If there is no shaman in the group, he just got healed for about 3k. The druid CH will be used in exactly the same way, and will be essentially just as effective as a cleric's CH for normal grouping unless the tank has much higher than average hp.

Why? If this change goes through, druids won't be made more diverse, just more powerful in a core ability. Those spells do the same for clerics.

Semantics. Druids will now be able to heal in the most difficult dungeons essentially as well as a cleric, assuming they are specced alter. Does that not add diversity to the roles that a druid can play? Does that not also diminish the need for clerics in an xp group? Whether you view that as a good thing or a bad thing, the role of the cleric is diminished relative to a druid for xp grouping.

The cleric, more than any other class, is a one trick pony that needs to be needed. Warriors can put out damage even if they aren't tanking, damage from rogues and wizards stacks without limit until the mob is dead, etc. You only need as much healing as the amount of damage being put out by the NPC(s) in the encounter. Any healing power beyond that is worthless. The cleric can't fill any other role relative to any other class. Name one thing that a cleric can do OTHER than healing or rezzing that another class can't do much better.

And don't say buffing, I think KEI has shown that you don't have to group a class to benefit from their long duration buffs. I don't think we want clerics to spend all their time whoring out aego in the bazaar like chanters do with KEI.


Here's an analogy to show the limits of defensive and healing power in relation to offensive power:

Which of these 2 forces is going to kill Gorenaire easier and with fewer deaths?

6 MB enabled wizards
12 clerics with a 1 second casting, 100 mana cost CH?

Well, since Sobe nerfed the thread it was in, I decided to repost it here and at the same time show off my new sig with my shiny new scimitar in it. *grin*

Very well. Here are my opinions about it, and mind you, there are other people that play than the top 5% that go for the most uber stuff. My guild is around... not quite HoT. We do Planes, KD, Dragons in WW, etc. that kind of stuff. Personally I have Thurg quest in all visible slots except feet and head, more or less. No FT, and only run 3 AA so far, going for 60 before more AA's.

We have six or so active clerics, and we can generally expect to see two to three of them at raids. Most of us are mid fifties, with some low some high. To us, this would be a great boon for raids. It gives us the additional healing power which we need from time to time, and it gives us more freedom in what we can do when we are low on clerics one day.

For me personally, I do both pickup and guild groups and I solo. guild groups tends to be balanced, but for pickups clerics are not always available. Most clerics seem to prefer sitting in OS yelling LFG for some reason, instead of comming to CD, which is my favourite dungeon.

With this, I can be primary healer in a pinch, and still have mana to do the other spells I need to maintain such as DS, snare, at times resists and hp/ac. Something which I should be able to do, since I am after all one of the three priest classses.

As for soloing, this would really help with charm rotting since it now heals a significant amount of the pets hp. All in all a healing upgrade that is much needed, allthough a more efficient, but less hp healed per cast wouldn't be frowned upon either.

You have obviously never played a tank OR a cleric. The average tank (WAR/SHD/PAL) at level 60 will have 4.5k or so hp fully buffed. If you don't have a shaman in the group, he will have about 4.1k.


Damn, where are you getting your tanks? Most of my playtime is on raids, and on these our rogues are breaking 5k now.

-Kolen

'You have obviously never played a tank OR a cleric. The average tank (WAR/SHD/PAL) at level 60 will have 4.5k or so hp fully buffed. If you don't have a shaman in the group, he will have about 4.1k.

In most xp groups, a cleric will begin casting a CH when the tank is down to 2 bubbles of health, and it will generally land before he is down to 1 bubble. That means that tank just got healed for about, you guessed it, 75% of his total hp. That also means that average tank just got healed for 3.3-3.4k hp. If there is no shaman in the group, he just got healed for about 3k. The druid CH will be used in exactly the same way, and will be essentially just as effective as a cleric's CH for normal grouping unless the tank has much higher than average hp. '


My 57 rogue has about 4600 hp fully buffed :P

The way I see it, I don't want or need to be keeping MT alive on raids .. that's the cleric's job ... all I want is to be able to keep my group and any caster alive ... 10 secs is too long to cast on a caster down to 2 bubs and getting pounded on ... hell when was the last time you casted Cheal on a caster ?

I really at this point in time do not like the spell ...
I would much prefer it being reduced to mayb 40% slightly slower duration but subject to the same cap as Clr's Cheal (ie. up to a max of 40% of Cheal which equates to 4k max) ... overpowering in xp groups .. mayb .. but it's main use is not in xp groups but rather Chealing casters like we always been doing .. nice to use on myself too .. since I break 4k hp fully raid buffed

being 75% of target's max hp or 2900 odd and whichever is reached first .. means it's not a viable option for healing casters, and with the long casting time .. sure it's mana efficient .. but if I want to patch heal .. I would rather toss a NT and/or chloro at a tank to keep him afloat and wait for cheal to hit

also with the 75% restriction .. druids will not be taking a place in rotations anytime soon .. point illustration, I quote loosely ... cheal hits for various values during a cheal rotation .. average for 3-4kish .. depending on how much a tank has taken in a round ... sometimes a tank might be in berzerking mode when cheal lands, sometimes close to full ...
ie. if a tank is close to full (ie. more than 75% of his hp) druid 'cheal' hitting does zip, conversely if tank is in berzerking mode, heal hit for a max of 3k (for sake of simplicity) so another bad round of melee (ie. two bad rounds in a row) will kill off this tank .. since tank's hp was not at full or close to full at beginning of second round (hope I didn't lose anyone here)

so in conclusion, what the hell is verant thinking with this heal ? you can't use it to help with heals in rotations on raids, you can't heal casters with it, you can't heal yourself properly with it ... only role it has is to act as a poor man's cheal on xp groups ...

Nice that VI is looking to improve healing for druids .. but this is the wrong direction to look at in my opinion


On choices of a cleric, shaman or druid ...

persay all 3 lvl 60 are looking for group in a normal xp situation ...

depending on a group make up,
generally from experience (when I'm playing as a rogue)
Shaman will get first pick if there is no chanter in group, and if there is a Cleric would ... and in most cases druid last ...
the only time a druid will get picked OVER a cleric is when there's a cleric in group already ... I've seen it in 3 different perspective ... from a druid lfg, a cleric lfg and a rogue in group getting a voice in who to pick


/rant off ...
/abestos gear on

:D

I suspect we could find ourselves in the rotation at any level encounter.

If your running a 4 second CH rotation there would be nothing to stop a druid taking a spot but using a 2 sec delay instead of 4.
As soon as the druids CH message is seen the next cleric can hit his ch delay and the rot is back to 4 seconds.

Would certainly stretch the mana when the clerics are low in number.

"Snare- Shaman none, Druid very good"

Shamans get various items with snare ..infact ensnare effect. So they might not have the spellline but they do get it.

Tils

While on that subject, clerics and shamans both get a port in a sense, with the player made spiritstones (forget other name), so they can port home and gate elsewhere. Not to mention PoP is gonna totally pimp out ports anyways (Which I have zero problem with, that many less people beggin for ports all the time).

Hehe, i was choking more on these,

Debuffs -Shaman Very good, Druids good

Shaman debuffs:
Decrease Fire Resist 60 (L50)
Decrease Cold Resist 60 (L50)
Decrease Magic Resist 60 (L50)
Decrease Poison Resist 60 (L50)
Decrease Disease Resist 40 (L60)
Decrease Dexterity 65 (L60)
Decrease Agility 75 (L60)
Decrease Strength 75 (L60)
Decrease Armor Class (AC) 33 (L60)

Druid debuffs:
Decrease Armor Class 35 (L60)
Decrease Fire Resist 109 (L60)
Decrease Attack (ATK) 60 (L60)



Heals -Shaman good, Druids good

Shaman heals:

Torpor
Increase Heal over Time by 300 per tick (L60)
Mana Required: 200
Spell Duration: 4 ticks (24 seconds)
Duration Formula: 10
Casting Time: 6.0 seconds
Spell Recovery: 2.50 seconds

Mana/hp ratio: 6.0

Chloroblast
Increase Hit Points (HP) by 428 (L55)
Mana Required: 175
Spell Duration: Instant
Casting Time: 3.0 seconds
Spell Recovery: 2.50 seconds

mana/hp Ratio: 2.4



Druid heals:

Nature's Touch
Increase Hit Points (HP) by 978 (L60)
Mana Required: 400
Spell Duration: Instant
Casting Time: 5.50 seconds
Spell Recovery: 2.50 seconds

mana/hp Ratio: 2.4

Chloroblast
Increase Hit Points (HP) by 428 (L55)
Mana Required: 175
Spell Duration: Instant
Casting Time: 3.0 seconds
Spell Recovery: 2.50 seconds

mana/hp Ratio: 2.4

Mmm yeah, we are just about even in this one, its not like your shaman heals over than twice the hitpoints for the same mana right? errr wait..

and where is the haste comparison, and more importantly the mana regen comparison? isnt that one of the main parts with shamans - or did i just totally drag that out of the air? its not like they are out of scale on that one anyways, right?

Then again you can lead that directly towards nuking and healing, or... nm, i think ill go read that one on the shaman healing thread one more time just for kicks, and while im at it ill take another look at that druid versus shaman nuking comparison in it also, im sure you are right somewhere.

Sheesh haven't we already had all these arguments arleady? Why don't we stop the shm>clr>dru talk and move on to some constructive talk about how this new spell is going to work. It's in the game on test...deal with it. Has anyone on test used it yet? (sorry read as much as I could of this thread without going nuts)

This new druid spell will make this even worse for clerics.

So give the spell to clerics also. I don't care.

This is the core of almost every argument raised by druids, "Someone else can do X thing better than us" but always misses the point that no class can do more things, even bards.

Bards can do so much more than we can..and they do things better than we can.

Wrong argument.

My official opinion:

The spell needs to be level 58+.

The spell should have a casting time of 5-7 seconds. Not 10.

It should end up capped at 7500 or 75% whichever is lower for that target.

I'll leave it up to the clerics to figure out what improvements they should get if any, other than this one suggestion:

FFS give clerics and Pallys self only invis already, oh..and see invis.

Why do you assume you'll be able to buy it?

Every other healing spell (not regen..healing) we've had has been store bought.

This one, should it go live, had best be also, or it does zero good for Druids (New Druid Heal for sale! 120kpp!)

At level 54 no tanks have more than 4k hp.

My level 52 warrior in a mix of Indico/Thurg armor has over 4khp raid buffed. One level 60 cleric and one level 60 shaman in a guild will get my warrior over 4k raidbuffed at level 52.

Did I mention that My level 52 warrior can get over 4khp raid buffed?

Clerics shouldnt worry to much, they still have ageo at 60 and can take much more abuse then a druid. Consider the aggro from this spell, Durids need to be cautious when casting this, nuking, dotting, ect. Clerics are still and always will be the best healer. Where I see this being very important is to guilds, this will enable them to raid even though most of their clerics are not online.

Adon,

To be blunt. Shut up. If you can't discuss things without insulting the members of this community, than don't come here and discuss things. That simple.

Aidon,

If this is moved to 58+ would you want to see Nature's Touch moved to 54?

I think that a 7,500 max limit would be so high as to make it not a limit.

IMHO, I really never want to be in a heal rotation. I am not a cleric and after playing my friend's cleric several times I am glad I am not a cleric.

I would rather they implement a good group heal for us.

I am not upset with this 75% heal, but I think that it is going to cause more problems with clerics then help us as druids.

*edit: sig nerfed*

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A 50-75% heal for druids is not going to take away the need for clerics with their heal-over-time, group heals, and still 100% CH.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


OMG! ROFL YOU ACTUALLY MENTIONED 100% REZ???!

This is your brain on drugs kids.

Drugs are bad.

My official opinion:

The spell needs to be level 58+.

The spell should have a casting time of 5-7 seconds. Not 10.

It should end up capped at 7500 or 75% whichever is lower for that target.


I am gonna have to disagree with this one.

What I am thinking is more along the lines of making the spell have a 12-15 sec casting time.

Perhaps remove the shaman heal and downgrade the druid heal on test to the shaman one


Lioness Starbreeze
A non bitter druid of the 40th lvl

druids want = druids get

What druids spend 10 months researching, testing, arguing over, debating, proposing, drafting ideas, making concerted efforts to relay to Verant = druid get some of.

KMA.

Every other healing spell (not regen..healing) we've had has been store bought.

This one, should it go live, had best be also, or it does zero good for Druids (New Druid Heal for sale! 120kpp!)

Welcome to the world of clerics. If you want to heal more like them, why shouldn't you also have to pay a ****load of plat for your new spells like them as well?

This thread starting to look like some other board's.

Bring back the love :)

No I don't rez. My groups don't die cuz I don't suck.

Your groups don't die because you don't push your personal envelopes. *yawn*

A night without a CR is a night unlived!

No I don't DA because I know how to control my aggro. The spell is loaded though for when a retard in group lives up to his retardedness.

I wish Druids had DA. For me to control my aggro..I have to sit out huge chunks of the fight instead of getting in the nitty gritty and doing my wild druid thang. On the other hand..I'm not a wuss druid and I say "Screw you Jo Boo, and your Aggro too!"

No I don't root. If YOU have ever gone to a "higher level zone" you'd know you mez, not root. And any tank who can't break a mez, I don't want to group with. But again, it's loaded in case.

*yawn* Boring grouper. I take it you never try to kill anything without an enchanter? I know an enchanter who refuses to group unless a cleric is there. I disdain both of you.

Yep, no reason to be bitter!

You are not a druid. You are not accepted into the Bitter Druids. Go make your own personal Bitter Cleric club if you want. Go away.

No, it's not wrong to be wanted in CERTAIN situations. It is wrong that you will now be superior to us in MOST situations. Most = all but Ssra and CT.

Well, that is 2/3rds of the zones I group for XP in. Ssra, CT, and The Deep.

If i'm XPing in another zone..its because we couldn't find one of the Holy Trinity.

I spend more time soloing while LFG than anything else I do combined three-fold.

Wow..almost as rough as Druids have it.

Is your pet really worse than ours? Ours that has 100hp and suicides?

Hehe, the only Priest class pet that isn't just a joke is the Shaman pet. Druid pet granted, is good for farming greenies for crafting at least. The cleric pet to be remotely useful would have to be immune to ripostes and do some decent damage.

lucy.fnord.net/spellhistory.html?id=2225&source=Test (http://lucy.fnord.net/spellhistory.html?id=2225&source=Test)

A restriction for "Percentage Base Heals" is being placed on Focus item effects.

This one, should it go live, had best be also, or it does zero good for Druids (New Druid Heal for sale! 120kpp!)

No, no. The clerics will all scrape together the neccesary cash and buy the three copies that dropped this year and junk them.

Lioness,
I hope you play another character that has a combat spell with a casting time remotely resembling 10secs. Because if you don't then you don't understand what you're saying about increasing the casting time. 12-15secs would make this spell pretty much worthless and I probably wouldn't mem it.

You do realize that our Nature's touch(highest HP heal) will heal just one bubble of health on a 60 buffed paladin? It would take 2000 mana casting that spell to completely heal him. I can say that you probably don't have that much mana in your pool at level 40.

Personally though, I'll make use of this spell because it's an upgrade to what I have. But what I wanted instead was a GOOD celestial heal type spell and a fast direct heal with a better mana ration than NT. I would have liked a group heal, but no matter how much we ask for that, it seems we're just not gonna get it.

Racmoor

This one, should it go live, had best be also, or it does zero good for Druids (New Druid Heal for sale! 120kpp!)

Sounds exactly like Torpor. Of course, the extreme rarity of that spell doesn't prevent it from being thrown up in every comparison between druids and shamans. :lol:

Why would it be so bad for this item to be on a mob's loot table? Heavens forbid that not every druid is able to buy it as soon as it comes out. Imagine the uproar if a class defining spell wasn't immediately available when you dinged. Yeah...sounds more and more like Torpor.

A quick reading of Crucible will show that shamans know druids have been underpowered for years and that shamans are mostly happy with their class design and would never pick to be a druid or switch to one of equal or highest level because druids have been underdeveloped.
The reason most shamans would never pick a druid character doesn't have anything to do with the power (or lack thereoff) of the druids class. Its more about playstyle, and *attitude*.

If you ever visited the Crucible you'd realize that.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This one, should it go live, had best be also, or it does zero good for Druids (New Druid Heal for sale! 120kpp!)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No, no. The clerics will all scrape together the neccesary cash and buy the three copies that dropped this year and junk them.


well, at this price, this has to be serious good junk .. lol :p

First off I'd like to say I'm a paladin.

For all the people that took offense to this statement of mine...

"but I do think clerics need a little something to try to keep things balanced in the healing department. I would suggest something like a 2kish hp direct heal with a lower casting cost, maybe 4 seconds or so. Something that is useful in a raid type encounter since there really aren't any direct heals that are. "


I wasn't saying clerics should be compensated. I said they need something to keep it balanced such that they are still desired over a druid for pure healing ability. Groups should be able to survive with a druid or shaman as a healer, but prefer to have a cleric for healing, since healing is the clerics specialty.

Seems verant agreed with me though since the new cleric spell on test is a 4 second 1600 hp direct heal. I hope they up that to 2k because 1600 really isnt' enough, but any upgrade to DL works for me.

I think it was scirocco that suggested Druids and CLerics Duo. One of my good friends is a cleric and we duo. Its quite exciting. And if we die, I just port us back for a rezzin :D
ANYTHING is possible.

Oh yeah, guess I "forgot" to put in my sig that in addition to a 40 druid I also play a 60 cleric lol. I know exactly how long a 10 second cast time is and it isn't so bad. Now BoA at a whopping 24 second cast time, that one is a bit long, I can begin casting, go to the restroom and come back just in time to see the spell finish seems like heh.

The difference is I distinctly remember reading here when the debate over Chrolo and NT was nbeing done, and druids said "This will fix us for healing!!!", and IMO, it DID, but I should have known better.

It did help with Druid healing. A year and a half ago.

The game moved on. The mobs and tanks got tougher. Cleric CH scaled with the changes. Druid heals did not.

yadda yadda, been said 1000 times already.

Sounds exactly like Torpor. Of course, the extreme rarity of that spell doesn't prevent it from being thrown up in every comparison between druids and shamans.

Why would it be so bad for this item to be on a mob's loot table? Heavens forbid that not every druid is able to buy it as soon as it comes out. Imagine the uproar if a class defining spell wasn't immediately available when you dinged. Yeah...sounds more and more like Torpor.

For one thing, this is currently a level 54 spell, while Torpor (and Malo) are level 60. And if it is as rare as torpor, it doesn't really help the average druids much to clear up the imbalance slow and CH creates among the priest classes. You could then just as well make it Ancient: Gentle Kiss of Tunare, 1985 DD heal for 400 mana in 8 seconds and let focus items work on it.

Lioness .. I hate to flame ... but it's was pretty darn obvious from your earlier posts that you are a cleric ...

and while you have a druid ... but in reality your perspective is purely from a cleric's point of view (60 v 40) ...

at 40 .. a druid's life is still pretty much a bed of roses

Tudamorf.

You are wrong. Point blank, dead bang wrong.

You know you are wrong.

I do not understand your seeming desire to see this change nerfed before it starts.

Welcome to the world of clerics. If you want to heal more like them, why shouldn't you also have to pay a ****load of plat for your new spells like them as well?

So, exactly how much does CH go for these days?

Hi. New changes for Clerics on test.

Divine Light upgrade, 1600 heal for 525 mana in 4.75 seconds:
lucy.fnord.net/spell.html...ource=Test (http://lucy.fnord.net/spell.html?id=2182&source=Test)

Group Celestial Elixir, 1200 heal in 4 ticks, 975 mana:
lucy.fnord.net/spell.html...ource=Test (http://lucy.fnord.net/spell.html?id=2180&source=Test)

Sounds exactly like Torpor. Of course, the extreme rarity of that spell doesn't prevent it from being thrown up in every comparison between druids and shamans.

Hmmmm, because your spell drop rate sucks everyone else's should too? I guess that is the difference. Clerics come here and say druids shouldn't get upgrades but they should, druids say that both classes should get upgrades, take it up with VI. Shaman come here and say their spell drop rate sucks and so should ours, druids say no spell drop rates should suck, take it up with VI. So many classes seem to have some serious hate for druids while most druids don't begrudge anyone upgrades. Just don't tell us you need upgrades or fixes, tell VI.

Actually life as a druid is awesome I must say. It is awesome for me because of one simple thing (disclaimer: why I like the druid class, not a generalization) The ability to solo.

Coming from a cleric's point of view the ability to solo is simply one of the greatest gifts in the game. The cleric is a class that can not do anything without a group. So after I have sat around LFG for close to an hour as my cleric, I hop on my druid and toast things, quickly and easily.

Some would argue that I should be all for this new spell change then. The amazing fact is -- I am. I would just like to see a realistic spell. The 12-15 seconds cast time I mentioned is not realistic, but was meant to ridicule the 5-7 second cast time that someone suggested.

As far as people saying this will help druids get into more groups, great I say, but not likely to happen. The problem is more with the public's perceived notion of droods. And I hate to say it, but there are very few good grouping druids that I have met over the course of the past few years.

Not to say this is a bad thing per se, just goes to show that a player's skill is what makes a class needed, not only the spells that a class has. There is a druid in my guild (/wave Faedia) who is probably the best grouping druid I have ever met. She could and often does easily fill the role of cleric when a cleric is not available. In addition to DS'ing, Snaring, etc.

Of course, to fill the role of a cleric, a grouped druid has to conserve mana, hence a choice is made to not nuke or dot much if at all. Herein lies my problem, the problem that I guess would make me a bitter cleric -- I do not have this choice to simply deal less damage (oh, aye, I could cast my useless magic based Reckoning nuke {No I do not have Judgement, which is just as useless as a whole, no way I am paying 8k for this})

I love, and have loved the cleric class ever since I started playing one in D&D 17 years ago. What I am, over what Verant has done to my beloved class, is saddened. Saddened to see clerics becoming more and more marginalized every day.

Bit of a ramble there, but to reply to the post I intended to reply to -- aye it is pretty obvious I am a cleric, even said so in earlier posts if you woulda looked.

Talenya,

Where did I mention that we have to pay a lot for HEAL spells? I said we have to pay a lot for new, dropped spells. And Blessing of Aegolism is cheap at 20k, Judgement goes for around 7k (a rip off at any price anyways), Mark of Retribution, a lvl 54 spell, goes for 1-2k

You also said this

Hmmmm, because your spell drop rate sucks everyone else's should too? I guess that is the difference. Clerics come here and say druids shouldn't get upgrades but they should, druids say that both classes should get upgrades, take it up with VI. Shaman come here and say their spell drop rate sucks and so should ours, druids say no spell drop rates should suck, take it up with VI. So many classes seem to have some serious hate for druids while most druids don't begrudge anyone upgrades. Just don't tell us you need upgrades or fixes, tell VI.


Where have I ever said druids shouldn't get this? I have only stated that as it is now is not how it should be. Also don't generalize and say that clerics say druids shouldn't get upgrades. Go look at the cleric forums and you will see plenty, if not a majority of clerics are fine with druids getting upgraded. Clerics want all the priest classes to be upgraded. Your point is non-existant, except for one thing you nail right on the head -- "tell VI"

omg. I know a cleric isn't complaining about paying for spells? Either the guild kills the mob and gets the drop for them or the guild BUYS it for them. When was the last time a guild bought moonfire for a druid?!

Racmoor

Rac,

Actually I am complaining about paying for spells. I play EQ in a small guild of friends. That is the way I like it. I am not into the uber end game stuff, far too boring to me. I like to have fun with my friends. Hence we do not get the lvl 60 dropped spells, hence I have to pay for them. Therefore *GASP* I am complaining about the prices of these dropped spells.

Oh and btw, I did buy PoTG for the druids in my guild.

Lioness Starbreeze
40th Druid

Lilianna Starbreeze
60 Halfie High Priestess of a Mad God
Leader of Champions of Hope
Veeshan

Welcome to the world of clerics. If you want to heal more like them, why shouldn't you also have to pay a ****load of plat for your new spells like them as well?

How much did you pay for CH again?

29 plat? From a vendor?

Ah..

Tell me again..where does Divine Light drop? Remedy?

"Where did I mention that we have to pay a lot for HEAL spells? I said we have to pay a lot for new, dropped spells. And Blessing of Aegolism is cheap at 20k, Judgement goes for around 7k (a rip off at any price anyways), Mark of Retribution, a lvl 54 spell, goes for 1-2k"

It seemed to be implied, seing how the discussion was around how this spell would make it's way into people's spell book. Furthermore, if you were NOT talking about healing spells, but ALL dropped spells, it seemed ignorant not to take into consideration Moonfire (15k (actually, I just checked /bazaar with my seller-mule. One for sale atm, price 25k)), Mask of the stalker (15k), Rotg (8k), SoE (1-2k), NWB (5-8k), foilage shield (anywhere from 2 - 6k).

So if you were talking about ALL spells, your point was non-existant (since we ALL pay through the nose for rare, dropped spells), and if you were talking about HEALING spells only, your point was non-existant, as we all get those from our local npc spell-dealer.

Come to think of it - what WAS your point?

Divine Light upgrade, 1600 heal for 525 mana in 4.75 seconds:
lucy.fnord.net/spell.html...ource=Test

Group Celestial Elixir, 1200 heal in 4 ticks, 975 mana:
lucy.fnord.net/spell.html...ource=Test

/sigh. Here we go again. Do clerics really need improved heals? What's not great about their heals already? I thought the whole point was they wanted to be more well rounded not unbalance the healing role once again.

*edit*

See:
pub13.ezboard.com/fthedru...ID=1.topic (http://pub13.ezboard.com/fthedruidsgroveboardpostingrulesandpolicy.showMess age?topicID=1.topic)

3) Posts specifically trolling for flames as the main topic of discussion get the thread wiped because whatever opinion or truth may be, it doesn't have much to do with EQ or druids.

*edit*

See:
pub13.ezboard.com/fthedru...ID=1.topic (http://pub13.ezboard.com/fthedruidsgroveboardpostingrulesandpolicy.showMess age?topicID=1.topic)

3) Posts specifically trolling for flames as the main topic of discussion get the thread wiped because whatever opinion or truth may be, it doesn't have much to do with EQ or druids.

*edit*

See:
pub13.ezboard.com/fthedru...ID=1.topic (http://pub13.ezboard.com/fthedruidsgroveboardpostingrulesandpolicy.showMess age?topicID=1.topic)

3) Posts specifically trolling for flames as the main topic of discussion get the thread wiped because whatever opinion or truth may be, it doesn't have much to do with EQ or druids.

a) CH for clerics is a lvl 34 spell. regardless of the effect, you can't compare prices on a spell that is *20* levels lower.

b) Torpor: 40 - 60k, Malo 35 - 60k

Paying 8k is not 'paying through the nose'. lol.

And yes, Torpor is a healing spell. ( Thank you Captain Obvious!) :)


Adion:
Always a pleasure talking with you. Didn't realize that 'lvl 60 shaman' = 'automagically reads the Crucible'. Her comment misrepresented the Crucible community, so even if she's the dang admin of the Crucible she got it wrong.

On another note - She kinda proves the exception to the rule - she states that most shamans would never take a druid char (because they are so underpowered), yet she does. And, I'm guessing that since she's an admin here she considers her Druid her main.
Either way, If she wants to flame me or tell me to stuff it she can do so here or over at the Crucible.

/sigh. Here we go again. Do clerics really need improved heals? What's not great about their heals already? I thought the whole point was they wanted to be more well rounded not unbalance the healing role once again.

I couldn't agree with ya more. We already heal great. Although an upgrade to DL is sorely needed.

Why is it so hard for Druids here to understand you have an option now. Nobody's forcing you to use this spell, your guild may, but thats what you wanted isnt it? To feel needed and appreciated? Now your whining about being a part of CH chains so a raid can go on if you dont have enough clerics? You people are rediculous. You think mages enjoy mod roding for raids? Necro's mana dumping for raids? Clerics in CH chains for raids? Of course not, i'm sure they'd all rather be nuking, but sombody has to do the job for the raid to go on and be successful. Think alittle less about yourself, and think more about your guild having a successful raid because you can fill in for the most crucial role at a raid now if you dont have enough clerics.

I still dont understand this aggro issue people are talking about. Are you speaking about aggro directly from the CH? Or are you speaking about aggro from debuffing, CH, DoT'ing, Nuking, etc? Because if its the latter, i dont know why one Druid would be doing all of this. I'd assume if your doing Druid CH's you'd probably be part of some chain, and if not then there'd be other Druids and Clerics CH 'ing as well, which would lessen your aggro. If your talking about exp group aggro, its easy to shake off, or if it becomes a major issue soften him up with chloroblasts and NT's to start, then patch a Druid CH later. Aggro has always been our limiting factor, and it works well as a buffer from overpowering us.

I just have no idea why any Druids would be complaining. If this spell goes live, Verant would have finally fixed high end raiding to some degree, at the same time made Druids significantly more valuable for high end raids. No one class should be so crucial to high end raiding as Clerics currently are. Thats obvious to anybody that raids. Its rediculous the lack of one class can ruin the night for 40+ people.

I never expected us to get a new ability. There is just too much rebalancing and other work i'm sure that would be involved in giving a class a new class defining ability at this point in the game. At least this way, we still get to keep our current role at raids, and soemtimes be asked to fill in for cleric CH chains i'm guessing. It could have been much worse, or even nothign at all. You should be thankful, i know i am, well if it goes live.

ok ok, before this goes to far -- I am afraid my original intent has never surfaced, got into too many arguments.

What I feel is that druids need an upgrade in healing, I just feel it should be in line with the druid's place amongst the priest classes. Druid's are more versatile, hence should sacrifice a bit of the healing power to clerics, who exist only to heal, buff, and rez.

*edit* After editing something like 14 of your posts due to content, I think I'm editing them out of spite now.

If dr00ds get a form of cheal, VI had better take away thier ability to quad kite. All the droods bitch about not being wanted in grps or raids. With the neaw cheal they get, they will be wanted. Why do all dr00ds think they deserve the best of both worlds? /boggle
Foulsbane 60 cleric Mith Marr


Yes, wonderfull argument : make druid (not dr00d, ok? not even respectable) cleric. Do you have more like that ?

Why don't we make cleric druid ? .. lol :p

Can't you be serious and respectable one moment?

Take away, take away, take away! What -is- it with this cleric negativity? What's wrong with looking at the world with a "half-full" outlook? Why don't you guys get together and tell VI what YOU feel you need to find your place in Norrath, instead of bitching about how someone else should have something taken away.

Sheesh, take a happy pill already.

Why do all dr00ds think they deserve the best of both worlds? /boggle

rofl...that's great considering all the posts from clerics here declaring what they need. If you can't make an intelligent statement/argument about the new heal on test then go away please.

To quote from a recent thread on the monks boards "Morons strike again..."

"Well let's see, first of all, being ignorant of higher level dropped druid spells, what the hell is RotG?"

Regrowth of the grove, group regrowth.

"And I am not gonna nit pick with you over prices, your server must simply be more inflated than mine."

Well, the BoA prices you quote seem to match the one on my server, but for all I know, druid spells are hideously overpriced on my server, or hideously underpriced at yours. Who knows.

"Ok, as far as the 2 dropped healing spells *gasp* there are 2

Celestial Healing *whoopdee friggin do* and
Torpor

I do believe my point is valid."

What point?? Seriously - what point!

While this may be a good spell for druids at 60, its a bad decision to have it at 54. This will break the cleric's desireability in xp groups. Do u realise how many druids there are around? Probably the No1 played class in the game, why pick a class that can only buff and CH , when u can choose a class that can buff, dot, snare, nuke, evac and ch at 75%. Again the problem lies in the level that druids will get it: 54-60 is a long road and will most certainly push the cleric out of a job. I haven't even mentioned shamans yet, why choose a cleric over a shaman for xp grinds when shamans can slow and dot and now CH? Again this spell breaks the game for the cleric in xp groups; for raids its ok, that is why this level should be 60 and shoul perhaps involve a quest.

He!! really has frozen over, I agree with Broomhilda.

I've read one too many posts from people who don't understand the true nature of the Cleric Faithstone who are holding that over our heads like a club and saying that we should "STFU because we have ports now!"

Faithstones are player made using Pottery. They never Trivial and with a 250 in the skill, I succeed on average about 1 in 4 times. To create an unfired one, it takes a Vial of Distilled Mana (212pp per vial) and a foraged bit. The rest of the reagents are simply obtained at any pottery vendor. 95% of failures occur at this stage of production and, therefore, when I am asked to make one, I advise the customer to bring 3 - 5 vials of distilled Mana. The second stage is to fire the Faithstone with a Divine Crystalline Glaze. These Glazes use Iron Oxides which has become very rare and difficult to obtain due to their uses in Golden Idols (of which the Tunare one is used in the PoTC Earring Quest).

Faithstones are Race, Class and/or Diety restricted (and most are all three) and are level restricted for Clerics 51 and above. For example, a Faithstone of Nature are only usable by High Elven Clerics who worship Tunare. There are two exceptions to this, Faithstones of Courage are Human/Cleric only which allows any Human Cleric to use and there is a similar Erudite one. Taking the Human one as an example, a Human Cleric of Rodcet Nife can obtain a Faithstone to port them directly to Qeynos and they can obtain a Faithstone to port them directly to North Freeport. This is viewed as a bug but, to date, nothing has been done to correct this mistake.

Now the argument that many people are making is that Faithstones are infringing upon a primary Druid ability. I'm somewhat suprised by this because many of those people who are complaining the loudest also supported the Faithstones on these very boards when they were introduced. The common sentiment was "Good for Clerics, this is a nice change for them." and "Woo hoo! That means there are less people begging me for ports!" Today these exact same people are using these items as some sort of leverage against Clerics and why we should not receive upgrades.

Now many myths about these Faithstones are that they suddenly grant Clerics the ability to port at will and gain the utility similar to Druid/Wizard gates. This is a false belief. As stated above, Clerics have, at most, 2 Faithstones to port to. All Faithstones deliever the Cleric in a "starting" city. You must possess the Faithstone in order to make use of it (having a Faithstone on your corpse in North Temple of Veeshan brings no benefit). They are 30 seconds casting time rendering them useless as an escape mechanism. They are limited to level 51 Clerics and above. Finally, they are self only and will not transport an entire group.

The "strategic" use of Faithstones are as a second Bind Spot. Most starting cities have banks and vendors that supply such things as food, water, peridots, and invisability potions. A select few are able to transport the Cleric to within 2 zones of a Nexus Spire.

To even compare Faithstones granting Clerics the porting cababilities that Druids and Wizards possess is absurd. By level 51, Druids have at their disposal gates and ports to 19 (I think) different zones and spells that allow them to gate around inside the zone "Succor" style spells. These portals are both single use and for entire groups. They range from ports near to towns for convenient banking/merchants and ports near popular experience zones.

The next common argument is the Timorous Deep Firepots. From a Cleric standpoint, these are a temporary convenience due to their limitations. The firepots are only capable of teleporting characters to starting cities in the old world and in Kunark. They do not do anything to teleport people to Velious nor do they allow people to move around Luclin. For a Cleric, these become even more obsolete due to the fact that we are often ordered to bind in certain zones. For example, when doing Temple of Veeshan (any wing), Clerics are often ordered to bind outside the zone to speed up a CR if it becomes necessary. With the introduction of Luclin, many guilds have ordered their entire guild to bind in the Nexus, once again for CR purposes. The Timorous Deep Firepots are handy but not practical as a permanent bind spot for many Clerics at the higher levels.

Luclin and their teleportation pads. As you all know, Luclin pads are very hit or miss. You are required to wait anywhere from .01 seconds to 15 full minutes between ports at these spires. The next problem is that they are very limited in destination as the "drop off" points are limited to one per continent. However, these are an, admitadly, handy tool if one is willing to wait and if one is willing to run long distances in some cases.

PoP teleportation system. As of today, this is a non issue as PoP has not been released and the teleportation system is not even found on Test. To date, nobody really knows for sure how this system will be used.

In summary, I just wanted to point out some truth about the various "porting" abilities of other classes and in particular Clerics. I understand that the vast majority of people are not upset but I wanted to shed light on the issue for that tiny, but vocal, minority.

I read through this whole thread, there's a lot of hate here lately. =D

I happen to be one of those strange people that have a 60 CLR and 60 DRU (and yes, I level'd them both up myself). My Druid once upon a time was nothing but a port mule, but the class is so much fun I level'd her up almost by accident.

Personally, I see these spells as a great thing. Never will I be asked to play the cleric that's on the same account as my necro. I'll spend a little more time AA-ing Kamaria and put the boring cleric away forever. I know a great many clerics with druid alts that will do the same.

It may hinge upon the "holy trinity" but hell at least you can have fun. Anybody and I mean ANYBODY who has seriously played a cleric will agree there simply is nothing as boring as being a band-aid. As a cleric: You buff (unless the MGBers get it for you) and you heal. That's it. As a druid I can HP buff (some people actually prefer PoTG), resist buff, dot, heal a little, DD, etc.

If I want to solo as a druid, I can (and pretty damn good with howler and PotC), I can duo (hunting spot's taken? No problem I'll port us to X) or I can group (nature's touch is a damn fine spell). Solo isn't a word used in the cleric community, and why do you want a cleric in the XP group if you have a shammy? Espically when you can get a shammy/druid or chanter/druid and do a hell of a lot more than you can with a cleric/anything.

So yea, it's a good thing. More people will quit playing clerics and "see the light" of just how much fun the rest of the game is. Plus, we'll have more druids this way, all those port mules will become real chars, and we'll all have res mules instead!

I just have no idea why any Druids would be complaining. If this spell goes live, Verant would have finally fixed high end raiding to some degree, at the same time made Druids significantly more valuable for high end raids. No one class should be so crucial to high end raiding as Clerics currently are. Thats obvious to anybody that raids. Its rediculous the lack of one class can ruin the night for 40+ people.


Well said, Broomhilda; this is the crux of the issue. My guild has 4 druids, 2 shaman, and *12* clerics. Guess which priest class is the bottleneck for what we can do on any given night? (Hint: it's not druids or shaman).

Having said that, I do think clerics could use some kind of extra *oomph* for use when they're not actively raiding. Outside of raids, clerics don't bring all that much to the table in todays world. As Trevize pointed out above, that's largely because most melee classes can now solo without *any* healers of any kind. Clerics could certainly use some kind of boost to their soloing ability.

If dr00ds get a form of cheal, VI had better take away thier ability to quad kite. All the droods bitch about not being wanted in grps or raids. With the neaw cheal they get, they will be wanted. Why do all dr00ds think they deserve the best of both worlds? /boggle

Ok, I just fell of my chair laughing and bashed my head off the table on the way down.

Quality comment from without-a-clue0001.

: puts his feet back on the desk and carries on reading the insane pycho babble that some people are spouting at the moment.

Feel the druid love.

- nieros

Quistil,
I just have to say - not ONE cleric-made post in this whole thread has had me agreeing to so much, both the reasoning, the logic and the conclusions as your explanation of the uses and limitations of faithstones.

/hug cleric

If dr00ds get a form of cheal, VI had better take away thier ability to quad kite. All the droods bitch about not being wanted in grps or raids. With the neaw cheal they get, they will be wanted. Why do all dr00ds think they deserve the best of both worlds? /boggle

Quad Kiting? What on earth does that have to do with anything? That is like saying "If clerics want invisibility, they need to give up fear". One has nothing to do with the other.

I am so sorry you are against things being balanced back to where they were before. Clerics have been obscenely overpowered and frankly over desired for some time now (Check any "Uber" guild web page). Balance is about trying to level out the desirability of the classes, not keeping things the same.

Don't start in on ports either, as soon as there are NPCs in every zone you can drag your corpse too and get a rez in 5 minutes, we will talk about ports. I honestly have been highly critical of a lot of the Druids here for the incessant whining, but the Clerics take the cake.

You know what, this will lower cleric desirability in some situations and raise Druid desirability. This my friends is "Working as intended".

Instead of saying Druids should have this or that taken away, why not make intelligent suggestions for changes to clerics. Half of you just list out every Druid/Shaman ability and say this what we should get if this goes live. Be realistic and try to have an intelligent discussion.

I guess we should have expected this. You would think VI had better sense than to put 'CH' in the title of a new spell.


As for quadding, please wake up. I can think of two classes that are better at quadding than druids, and at least 3 that solo better than any druid. Not to mention the fact that VI has said over and over again that soloing ability has absolutely nothing to do with discussions concerning balance in group play or raiding situations.


Healing is where druids needed work. This is a healing upgrade. It's not exactly what I would have done. I would have upped the values on both chloro and NT, and shortened the duration of NR while removing the recast time. Still, it's not a bad idea.

There is one class that is required in this game. There is one class that has no substitute on hard-hitting mobs. That is wrong. None of us want to sit around and be denied content just because a certain character didn't log on of a night. With this spell, the NEED for clerics will be cut back to the main CH chain, while druids can handle the rampage tanks and secondary melees.

Why is ti that clerics think they should maintain this lock on raid situations? Who told you you could keep this ivory pedestal forever?

"/sigh. Here we go again. Do clerics really need improved heals? What's not great about their heals already? I thought the whole point was they wanted to be more well rounded not unbalance the healing role once again."

yes they do. Whats being balanced here is the high end game. DL is just obsolete, it doesn't heal enough to serve its purpose anymore. Its quite simply a patch heal and the amount of DPS top end mobs put out these day require a more effect direct heal. These spells don't scale at all like the complete heal did. Personally I'd like to see this upgraded to a 2000 pt heal, so when I'm being quaded for 300-1000 it keeps me alive long enough for a CH to hit me.


Here is the perfect scenario.

A) Druids/Shamans can heal for an exp group.
B) Druids and to some extent Shamans can help heal on raids in a meaningful way.

I think from the druids/shamans standpoint this 75% heal change makes both A and B a reality.

A) Clerics are still desired for an exp group but not required for one.
B) Clerics are still desired as primary healers in raids.

I think point B is still true, but I think point A probably isn't. They are going to have to do something with clerics that let them add to a groups DPS in a meaningful way if they want people to still pick clerics in an exp group. Its good that they aren't required anymore, but they do need to be desired at least.

This will break the cleric's desireability in xp groups.

This does not in any way make clerics less desirable it just makes the game less dependent on clerics. Even if we do get this heal clerics are still going to be main healers and not only that druids dont have the buffs that clerics do which is a big help in the healing dept. If this went live it would not take away from the clerics but rather just make it less of a neccessity for every group to have a cleric to do something.

And those complaining about the fact that we can solo (yet again) try soloing from 1 60, its not much fun. Id rather not solo. I play an interactive game to interact with people. Id rather group with people and have fun sorry.

Maybe let clerics "heal" mana the same way thet heal HP

or some sort of longer lasting stun (=mez)

The funny thing is, if we are healing in an exp group, do you really think we will be nuking, DoTing and DSing too?

If we have slower, yes, but that has always been the case. A slower always made a cleric non critical.

The point is, the clerics seem to think we will be playing cleric, wizard and druid all at once, so will edge them out of groups. They must think we have on helluva mana pool.

Another way to look at this is how many slots do you think a druid is going to be willing to give up for heals? I know that in most normal circumstances, I will not have more than one spell slot dedicated to heals even if this spell goes in.

"Actually life as a druid is awesome I must say. It is awesome for me because of one simple thing (disclaimer: why I like the druid class, not a generalization) The ability to solo."

Try doing it for 60 lvls, especially the high lvls, and you'll probably revert to grouping. Soloing is the most boring thing in the game. You only have that perspective because your Druid is your soloing twink i'm guessing. Alot of us have Druid mains, and prefer grouping. So not all of us look at a Druid only for soloing purposes, in fact i never solo anymore, i log if i cant find a group /


"oming from a cleric's point of view the ability to solo is simply one of the greatest gifts in the game. The cleric is a class that can not do anything without a group. So after I have sat around LFG for close to an hour as my cleric, I hop on my druid and toast things, quickly and easily."

You can solo undead. Not quite as well as we can solo, but you CAN solo nonetheless. Not that i'm against any improvements to Clerics soloing abilities, i've always been for that.


"As far as people saying this will help druids get into more groups, great I say, but not likely to happen. The problem is more with the public's perceived notion of droods. And I hate to say it, but there are very few good grouping druids that I have met over the course of the past few years."

This makes me laugh because its just silly. Why is there a double standard for Druids in being useful and having to play their class exceptionally, when other classes dont have to and are still preffered? A Shaman that just slows is useful and preffered, even if he plays his class poorly. A tank that just melee's, rogue that just backstabs, Cleric that just CH's are all prefered classes, and it really has nothing to do with how well they play. It has to do with their abilities. But then you judge Druids based on being exceptional just to be looked at in a positively light? That is an imbalance of class abilities more than anything.


"Not to say this is a bad thing per se, just goes to show that a player's skill is what makes a class needed, not only the spells that a class has. There is a druid in my guild (/wave Faedia) who is probably the best grouping druid I have ever met. She could and often does easily fill the role of cleric when a cleric is not available. In addition to DS'ing, Snaring, etc."

Wrong. This is such a fairy tale viewpoint. A classes abilities is what gets them into groups, not how well they play their class. Do you do pickup groups? If you dont then you wouldnt know about class desirability. Very rarely will you get a group based on reputation, only when your competing against the same class. 99% of the time people get groups based on class desirability and what slots need to be filled at that given time, almost never on how well yo play. Every Druid or whatever class thinks they can play their class well. Every Druid or whatever class is limited by their abilities. If your going to pickup a class to fill a healer slot, your first choice is a competent healer(not Druid). If you cant find the competent healer(Cleric) you go to the Shaman, if no Shaman available, you resort to the Druid. Why would a group choose a class that struggles to keep up with heals, when one(cleric) is available that gives them assured healing? They dont. We're talking about pickup groups here, not guild or friend groups btw.


"Of course, to fill the role of a cleric, a grouped druid has to conserve mana, hence a choice is made to not nuke or dot much if at all. Herein lies my problem, the problem that I guess would make me a bitter cleric -- I do not have this choice to simply deal less damage (oh, aye, I could cast my useless magic based Reckoning nuke {No I do not have Judgement, which is just as useless as a whole, no way I am paying 8k for this}) "

Umm,, Druids pay 20k for Moonfire. You CAN nuke, you CAN stun very well, you CAN fear, you CAN do alot of things. You have the same choice. If your ever FM, and i know you are, dont blame your class on the fact that all your doing is healing, blame yourself. I wrote a post in the general section talking about what annoys me about clerics, and the one thing i see over and over again are Clerics sitting 95% of the time their grouped. You know their FM 3/4's of that time, but they just sit there and act as though all they can do is heal. When a good cleric can do much more than that.


"I love, and have loved the cleric class ever since I started playing one in D&D 17 years ago. What I am, over what Verant has done to my beloved class, is saddened. Saddened to see clerics becoming more and more marginalized every day."

You should get used to it for the high end game. You had it too good, your class was too required to do anything, and thats why your being marginalized. No one class should be so crucial to raiding as Clerics are. Its selfish to think thats how things should be. There are multiple classes that can replace any other class for a given situation, the only exception are clerics.

And hopefully, thats being corrected to some degree with if this ever goes live.

Go look at the cleric forums and you will see plenty, if not a majority of clerics are fine with druids getting upgraded. Clerics want all the priest classes to be upgraded. Your point is non-existant, except for one thing you nail right on the head -- "tell VI"

This isn't the cleric board. This isn't the shaman board. Yet this post is full of shaman and clerics trying to tell druids what druids need or what shaman and clerics need. If shaman and clerics want to discuss their needs they should point it out on their own boards. If they want to discuss what druids need, they need to quit their current character and level a druid up to 60 to play as their main.

Do u realise how many druids there are around? Probably the No1 played class in the game, why pick a class that can only buff and CH , when u can choose a class that can buff, dot, snare, nuke, evac and ch at 75%.

Not the "No1 played class in the game" -- though it is probably the "No1 port whore PL alt class in the game."

The number of people who play druids as their primary/main characters for groups and raiding, is strikingly low compared to those who play clerics, shamans, and most melee classes.

Please don't count the druid bots who were created and leveled up to porting age merely to provide transportation for main characters and their friends. Those dr00ds are usually not 50+ level, nor are they competing for group spots with clerics ... or anyone else for that matter.

~Firemynd

Lol Logan,

I think you really did hit something. Our mana pools are limited, our heals aren't as effective as clerics our DD's aren't as good as wizards but all these new healing spells do is make it easier for me to assume one or the other role (healer or nuker) with maybe a few buffs. Neither my mana pool or spell slots can afford me to be both at once.

Like many druids my spell book constantly changes to reflect the role we have to do. The healing changes make the healing roll much easier. Only problem I forsee is even when my primary job is going to be DD I'll probably want to keep 2 spell slots open for back up healing .... and that is not a problem I'm complaining about ;)

Keryia

ok,

I have painfully read threw all the posts on this string, hoping for some piece of information about this spell from the test server... you know details.... how it works..... where is the spell being made available....... is it 75% of the targets total hps, or damage done to target? and what do I find? Bah...........

Ok, this is how I see this situation. Druid spells have been watered down post kunark. I am not sure about the other class's but I know for a druid there would be no motivation to lvl beyond 53 or 54 if all you wanted was better spells... every spell we get at this point in our careers is nothing more than a weaker version of what other class's get at earlier levels, at least post 60 and even then it is the case to the most part.

I know that shaman as a whole don't need any assistance from the balancing issues. In fact giving them a heal of 2k could possibly take them from the incredibly powerful class that they presently are, into some new realm of unbalance that I think VI will think strongly about, so don't be expecting this spell for our lovable Shammys to go live(none of the shaman in my guild expect it to, and could care less). The role of the shaman in a group is already defined, and does not need to be changed.

For my Cleric Brothers and sisters, I know your pain. Having to sit there and med, while all the action goes on around you. Stand hit that one good spell you have to heal the MT and return to keeping the floor warm. rinse and repeat. In a well rounded guild the druids role is much the same. Our buffs are over done by the shammy, our ds owned by the mage, our debuffs don't make any significant difference on mobs damage, Regens shammys get them earlier than we do, nothing we have for hp or ac buffs stack, with other class's (yes you clerics) being better (as it should be), our pet is a joke, we do get circle of summer winter and seasons, but lets be honest for the exp grind they are almost never needed. I guess what I am saying is, I understand what you are saying when you tell everyone you have nothing to do. and I agree you need more utility based spells to make you a better rounded class, I don't think your power as far as balancing has to change, just a couple spell lines that would make you a better over all class, with more options at your disposal.

Having said that I would like to add that when ever my guild raids, I have the luxury of being the healer of the main groups shaman and chanter. I find this role to be very challenging, and fun. Agro is always an issue, but like I always say, if I die saving the chanters life, the raid goes on, and I can get a 96% rezz kei, and in less than 5 mins I am ready to go again. As far as this role goes, I can see this new heal helping to heal the shaman in a pinch(fully raid buffed our shammy has a ton of hps) but the chanter? no thanks... chloroblast or superior healing.

It is good to see clerics out there embracing this spell change, and I think the reasons are simple. As soon as one other class gets the ability to Heal anywhere near what clerics can, clerics will have more time to experiment with the things they can do. With some reasonable additions to your spells. So my thinking is that with this spell clerics will be free to do more, and at the same time adding to the druids over all desirability when it come to groups. Very possibly killing 2 drakes with one stone.

This spell may never go live for druids or shaman, but I think that VI has finally started to see the changes that need to be made, and are attempting to get the ball rolling, with all they have on their plates, I understand the time it takes to make it happen. This change is anticipated, over due and deserved by many of us druids, that resort to soloing when there is nothing else to do, because we are group useless. tho I don't think this will fix all the druid class's problems, it is a step in the right direction.

Please reserve this string for the valuable bits of information that will trickle in, and not for the petty bickering that always seems to find its way here :) thanks

Suda Wilde
Druid on the nameless
Fist of Fate

*edit - why do you have half a page of blank space here? =/

This does not in any way make clerics less desirable it just makes the game less dependent on clerics


Listen, you can nit pick all u want at my post, but it doesnt change my point: if you give this spell to <60 druids, the lvl 54+ cleric will become less wanted for xp groups. This has to be a 60+ spell because No1 u wanted to be desired for raids ... great u got it. No2 as stated before why pick a class that cant snare, dot, evac, nuke, and now heal for xp groups when u can get a druid that can do all those things. Don't get me wrong this is a good upgrade, I've changed my attitude for it when i noticed the cap, but to give this to <60 druids would definately be unbalancing, I think most reasonable ppl can see why.

I still cant believe people try to bring "quadding" to the table when pretty much every class in the game other than a cleric can make XP faster than a druid can solo. My guildmates that solo laugh at making an AA pt solo every 2-3 hrs which takes a druid quadding 5-6 hrs or longer, not to mention the HUGE crowding of the few spots left to quadkite at 60 from druids, wizards (who can outquad a druid anyday with more efficient spells + the horse/epic/manarobe routine), and groups. Its generally not even possible to solo for good xp for long unless you do it very late at night because its too crowded and there are no mobs left to pull so you are left waiting a long time for more mobs to spawn after medding up.

That being said, I am very much so for clerics getting new spells to allow them to solo better to at least give them that option as it is frutstrating when you cant find a group. I HATE soloing as its very boring, but its hard to get a group as no one wants a druid for their group unless your friends are on XPing and they let you tag along. You try for a pickup group and they always shouting for cleric, shaman, enchanter, or melee. I always see posts by clerics that everyone wants a druid over cleric for their XP groups and I find that VERY far from reality - sure, many XP groups in easy areas might choose a shaman over a cleric to make it even more trivial, but never a druid as they are only picked when no clerics are to be found.



Oh and about the new "CH" spell, now that I found out it wont work with Focus items this spell is going to the back of my spellbook and probably never will be used. Why did Verant even call it a "CH" - that was the stupid PR move towards clerics, or did they want an excuse to make it so focus items wont work with the new spell. Oh look, we call the spell a CH so focus items cant work, sorry! At least if focus items had worked, the spell could be decent using spell haste 3, mana preservation 3, and improved heal 3. Tell me why did I work to get those focus items if the percentage based heals wont work with them??? CH doesnt because the game is entirely focused around that heal, but these percentage based heals dont come close to that spell with all the hitpoint mudflation going on. Druids are supposed to be excited about a 3k heal when in PoP warriors will be breaking 8-9k hitpoints? Since focus items wont work with the percentage based heals, I think the cap needs to be raised to a more reasonable 5k (can lower the percent heal to 66% if deemed too powerful at 5k).

No2 as stated before why pick a class that cant snare, dot, evac, nuke, and now heal for xp groups when u can get a druid that can do all those things.

You're right - all I have to do is find a way to regen 150 mana a tick and reduce all my casting times by 1/2... then I can snare, DS, buff, heal,DoT and chain nuke.

I am uber!

if you give this spell to <60 druids, the lvl 54+ cleric will become less wanted for xp groups


Please go back several pages and re-read my post on groups.

Druids and clerics are not, have not, and will not be in compeition with eachother for group slots. This spell doesn't change that.

*If* a group needs a healer (and many don't these days) the prefered choice has been and always will be a cleric. If a cleric cannot be found this spell *MIGHT* help a druid fill that role in many situations but NOT all. Many 1 group encounters will still require a cleric healer. For simple xp grind this spell will give groups many more options when seeking a healer *IF* they actually need a healer, which again many don't.

*sig nerfed.

snare, dot, evac, nuke, and now heal for xp groups

Why Pick a class that can't fear, rez, nuke (Most high 50 levels cleric nuke >>> than druid nuke) and heal (still) as well as a cleric?

I swear most of you Clerics have not turned your spell books past page one. You must only use like 4 spell slots, given how ignorant most of you are about your own spells.

On a totally different and somewhat related topic...I just want to ramble a bit on how excited I am to see this change.

I've been hunting in PoM lately. It's nice and quiet, not a lot of people around. However, with our current crappy heals I can't do anything other than the forest which really requires no heals on my monk at all past regen. Now, I can do the stage/halflings but without slow or a decent heal it takes almost all my mana (3600 and something) to just kill one. Forget about AIW or the garden. I'm also using every tool druids have available to help reduce ac, atk and add dmg (thorns, epic, right clicky arms). But my druid just totally doesn't cut it for healing.

On the other hand a friend of mine has also been duo-boxing with his monk (with the same equipment - mine might be a tad better) and his clr. He just blows through this stuff and can go anywhere he wants. Absolutely no problems what so ever. And is having a ball.

Then there's my other friend there who is double boxing with his monk (again, equal equipment) and his shaman. You would not BELIEVE the difference. I join his group and I'm an anchor. He has unlimited mana, awesome heals, excellent buffs (doesn't even ask me for mine when I join) and slow (he malos' for me so I can land snare). He goes all over the place in PoM without a care in the world...never has to sit to med...no downtime what so ever. It's little wonder shamans don't care one way or another about this new heal.

Anyway, my point is that it has never been so apparent to me how far behind druids are in the whole priest healing department then when I started duoing in PoM while at the same time watching my friends duo with the other 2 priests and the same tanks. This new heal (can't call it a CH because it's not) will be sooooo welcomed to me it's not even funny. I really really hope it goes live.

I hate to add to the negetive quote and slam nature of this thread but I can't realy swallow the post that says that if this spell is given to a druid before level 60 it will completly unbalance the game.

MY FEELING is that your level 39 spell BROKE the game long ago. Now we are just trying to even things out a bit. That single spell has forever secured a clerics position as best healer in the game and one of the "required classes" for raids. It is sad to see a raid where 30 people have shown up for called off because no clerics showed. That is just broken that ANY one class should be so essential. But you won't find me on a cleric board saying "remove CH from the game, clerics are too special NERF CLERICS NERF CLERICS" People should be happy playing the classes they have choosen to play and shouldn't feel slighted because some other class recieves an adjustment to help them. A boost in druid healing ability DOES NOT hurt you or your family or your character choice at all. You are still the best healer. Relax, please.

I applaud the change and can't wait to see what happens. I love the clerics who heal and rez me and the shamans who turn those realy nasty mobos into little kittens. Is it so wrong for a druid to be able to help out a bit more in the "priestly" functions. Geesh.

Europa
54 druidess (who might be able to help heal a bit better in a while)

Some clarification on focus items and Percentage Heal (I refuse to call it Druid CH any longer) ...

Looking at Lucy, only the "casting time reduction" mage-summoned focus items have been changed at this point. That's what I would have expected really. Casting time is 10 seconds on both CH and PH for a reason - Timing of them is crucial to their effectiveness. I can understand why they don't want healers to have the ability to drop this to 8.5 seconds.

I'd expect to see the same adjustment on Spell Haste and likely even Mana Preservation as well.

I do hope they keep Improved Healing III and AA skills available for these spells if they keep the 3k limit. Seems strange to have a percentage heal in the game if in 6 months it will be outdated as well as PC's hps and NPC's attacks rise yet again. IH3 and AA could help offset the mudflation a little bit at least.

*dons Fire Resist BP*

A half-baked theory:

Many Clerics are scared.

No, not of having their role marginalized in xp groups, not of giving away the lock on high-end encounters, but of having to learn how be a versatile and play the game differently.

My reasoning:

Why do so many Clerics come here attacking Druid abilities and perceived "upgrades" instead of drafting their own, positive, suggestion-rich response to Verant. Maybe not a petition per se (we all know Absor doesn't like those ;P) but something contructive.

Instead, many of them feel compelled to troll other class boards criticizing upgrades, claiming they'll be marginalized, yada yada yada.

Are they a one-trick class? Are they truly as feeble as they themselves claim to be here on this board? In other words, maybe many of them don't WANT the added capabilities for fear that they will have to change or adapt to a new style of group or raid.

Conclusion:

I say give 'em a whole bunch of new stuff. Snare, Ports, Pet, whatever. Give them the opportunity to learn more about the soloing game, the aggro game, the pulling game, etc. Let them see the game through different lenses. Let them become more versatile if their play style if they wish. Maybe it will result in some positive feedback as opposed to this constant Druid/Shaman/Melee bashing they often resort to.

Disclaimers

1. This obviously doesn't apply to all Clerics. Many clerics are highly-skilled players who constantly look for ways to improve. I routinely group with excellent clerics who manage mana well enough to free up all other classes to Nuke/DoT/debuff, which is a huge asset to any group.

2. There are just as many bad clerics as there are druids. IMO, it's just much easier to hide behind an uber spell and a hotkey.

Sorry for the long-winded post.

Primero Aventurero
Druid, Fennin Ro

Well one of the boards (Stratics or Vault) did a recent poll asking people what the "primary" character and still druids were well above any other class. Maybe more druids are board readers but it was still the favorite class. Think it was 11% druids and the next was at 7%.

And, as primary healer I do still nuke, dot, and buff my parties. (generic response that healing druids can't do other things)

And, as primary healer I do still nuke, dot, and buff my parties. (generic response that healing druids can't do other things)

Sure, druids can do all of these things at once... for one or two pulls, then we are oom.

Kileren Moongazer
<Frayed Knot>
The Rathe

"And, as primary healer I do still nuke, dot, and buff my parties. (generic response that healing druids can't do other things)"


I think they meant that if your really healing, your not nuking. You can have the role of primary healer, but not have to heal much and start nuking or whatever. But if you have the role of primary healer, and actually have to heal abit then your more than likely not doing all the other stuff or your going oom fast. As we know our heals arent very mana efficient at all

I do those things and don't go OOM. I got the point thanks. ...


Also let me put these disclaimers in too because I know you will go here next. I am not uber. All my gear is from 1 party situations. I have a lot of AXP points now but I did fine before. All this do was nudge up the level of encounter I was able to do. I have done with with slow without slow with the all-meat parties. I just am extremely careful and med obsessively.

Exactly Broom. You can heal or you can nuke, but trying to do both at once is dangerous unless your group is taking little damage.

Nothing worse than over nuking and than not having the mana to keep your group alive on a bad pull.

I will nuke if I am at 80% + as a primary healer, but not below that point. My job is to keep the group alive first and foremost.

Aidon says: Tudamorf.
You are wrong. Point blank, dead bang wrong.

Yep, I know. I should've rated this flame-fest thread a 1, not a 3. <img src=http://lag9.com/rolleyes.gif>

I do agree the cleric monopoly on raid should have been broken and I do agree that druids need some change for them in raid situation and if this spell when go life to certain extent improve it for druid ( which put them into the CH rotation tho )

However with this go life clerics lvl 54 to 58, the casual gamers, who already find themselves in a dilemna in getting exp, will find their situation aggravated no doubt. They are the group of people that need the exp to at least get to 60, and is dependent of grouping to level. They don't have Aego, CE yet and now Druids get a spell which heal as efficient as clerics in "EXP" group while Druids can offer more on the offensive sides. The following are some comments I have read:

1. Rezzes - It is not necessary if your group is efficient. You don't need a cleric to be in group to get rezzes. You can also use mule clerics, LFG clerics for rezzes. Nowadays, I got more requests for rezzes from soloer/quadkiters in ME/CS than from groups.

2. Cleric can solo undead - Yes, but do you know how long it take a cleric to regain exp loss from a death in raids soloing undead? Besides, how many easily accessible zone clerics can go solo undead? Well the Grey maybe. But every time I go there there are already quad kiters taking most of the mobs. I sometimes go to the Grey to solo when I can't find a group. Its really sad watching the druids quad kiting the skellys while I need to sit medding back my mana (and sometimes the lame druids train their Rocks on me =( )

3. HP of MT - not all MT get raid buffs in exp group, so 3500 to 4500 HP is my guess on most exp group MT. I can wrong on this tho.

4. Clerics can fear - Unless you got a snarer in the group, why fear? If I have a tank in my group with me, a cleric, why fear?

5. Clerics can nuke - I do nuke if I have extra mana. But that means Druids will have extra mana too, who will be able to do more on the offensive side with the extra mana than clerics.

6. Have faith in VI/Rich - track record may be good for druids, but obviously not for clerics. Look at what they put on Test for us now? More healing spells. A Yaulp spell that do not stack with Blessed Armor of the Risen. A good 1hb weapon while we suck at meleeing. Want to make us battle clerics? LOL

BTW I have seen ONE druid posted on EQcleric that Rich should start looking into rezzes. Do that mean druids want rezzes too now?

Besides, there are some points not mentioned:

1. Time in searching for groups - Druids can go to various hot exp zones quickly while clerics can spend all night moving from one exp zones to another zones LFG and still futile. In the end druids can just port and go solo, yes boring, but they have the option. Clerics? yes looking for port to go to the few zones with undead that they can solo.

2. People have said you still got your friends who will admit you into their groups even you would slow them down - I don't think players relationship should be put into consideration of class balancing.

Yes. no doubt cleric is still the most efficient in healing and ONLY effcient in healing. When this spell go life, clerics 54 to 58 will find themselves spending lots of time LFG, while need to respond to requests from guildmates to rezzes and to raids and eat deaths. How can they possibly advance to lvl 60? not mentioning AA points. Humm maybe the day PoP come out they will get to 60. No they will retire their clerics and start a twink or go play alternates. Anyway, who cares about them? there are already enough cleric Bot around.

Just my own opinion.

Ston 60 High Priest
Lamorat 56 Outrider
Inny

Many people have come to the conclusion that the Petition and whining are the causes of recent changes to Druid healing. IMO, that is a bad conclusion. Repeat: correlation is not the same as causation. Yes, there was a Petition and whining. Yes, changes were made. No, this doesn't imply that whining -> upgrades.


Ok, this is my first post on this board. My main is a 51 druid, so I cannot comment on the "high level" game, but I can comment on the arguments people are making. The above statement is EXACTLY what I have been thinking after reading countless posts on this and other boards.

It amazes me that so many people honestly believe that positive changes to the druid class are the result of "druid whining." While I should be scared that these people have such little common sense, it does not surprise me, given the wide range of ages and backgrounds of the playerbase. I'm not saying that all the people making these arguments are 11 years old, and I'm also not saying that all 11 year olds make these arguments, but it just shows that a decent number of players don't have much background in logic.

Here is something that quite a few people bashing druids didn't seem to think about: months and months of discussion went into the infamous druid petition, and scores of people came up with what they believed would be logical improvements to druids. Developers at VI spent (let's say) months and months discussing what logical improvements could be made to druids. Does it not make sense, therefore, that a number of proposed changes that happened to be listed on the druid petition are being implemented? After all, there are only so many changes that can be made to this class, while keeping it within the bounds of still being the druid class.

For example, the removal of the 10% healing penalty was a logical step. TDG saw this, and VI saw this. Yet a horde of illogical people read the druid petition, then saw this implemented, and screamed, "Whine enough and they get their way!" People are still screaming this, and will continue to scream this until the game is no longer in existence. We'll still hear it when EQ2 comes out.

It just annoys me to no end to read of improvements to druids, followed by ten thousand threads bashing them, claiming that these improvements are the result of whining and bitching. What's hilarious, yet sad at the same time, is that these people bashing druid improvements usually hate druids and think they suck. "Druids suck at the end game; go back to quading and let the real classes do the raiding." Then changes are proposed that would make druids assets at high level raids, and these people scream, "They're already the most powerful class in the game! They can charm, DS, buff/debuff, snare, invis, port, evac, summon food, nuke, heal, summon a pet...What's next? KEI and Manaburn?"

Some people seriously need to do some critical thinking here. Unfortunately, some people also never put any points into that.

BTW I have seen ONE druid posted on EQcleric that Rich should start looking into rezzes. Do that mean druids want rezzes too now?

I hope you are not referring to my post on that ridiculous thread about not rezzing anyone your not grouped with on the cleric board. Satire is your friend. Fear not, rezzes will most likely not go the way of ports and be given over to NPCs.

"I do those things and don't go OOM. I got the point thanks. ..."


I dont think you did. I think we all med and are careful especially when primary healer, i dont know why you act as though you do things so differently or better. I would say if your the primary healer in a group, and tend to nuke, dot, etc. while pumping out heals consistently, then your mana bar wont be too high. Unless you can magically gain mana faster than any of us who med as well. And lets say an overpull happens, you dont have the mana to heal your group, when that was your first priority. Anyways, you live and learn i guess /

If your DoT'ing with epic, thats one thing. But to claim to be nuking, DoT'ing, and buffing at the same time consistently healing your tanks and melee, then i dont care who you are, your mana bar isnt going to be too high. Unless you happen to be leaving out med breaks for 5 minutes every 3 fights. Again, as i said to you the first time, its one thing when your in a group and barely have to heal at all. Its an entirely different thing when your in a group and are regularly pumping out heals on top of the regens you already placed jsut to keep the tank alive.

half-baked

Well, you got that part right at least.

"It amazes me that so many people honestly believe that positive changes to the druid class are the result of "druid whining"


Just curious but do you think Verant was aware of all of our issues before we pointed them out? Do you think pointing out the watering down of our abilities justifying our abilities being taken away might have had any influence? How much do you think the silent or the satisfied Druid actually contributed to these changes?

Furthermore, the history of Whineplay proves whining is what gets changes. When a class is broke, they whine more. Right now, it just happens to be Druids, and the most proactive of us have been fighting to get changes.

If we all sat here and never talked about any of this with any complaints, i dont even think we would've had one change.

And, as primary healer I do still nuke, dot, and buff my parties. (generic response that healing druids can't do other things)



Sure, druids can do all of these things at once... for one or two pulls, then we are oom.


One acronym comes to mind: KEI.

And people claim that CH broke the game...

Heh, feel free to defend/elaborate/make sense Lyria.

Or was that the CH macro you just pushed?

Primero

Ummm, i have kei almost all the time, along with MOTS(just got it) and POTG. I still dont have the mana to do all of that.

But it really comes down to how often you have to heal. Some people have to heal a NT per mob, and you can only imagine how fast your mana bar will go down if pulls are constantly coming. If all you have to do is lay a NR and a chloroblast here and there then doing all that other stuff isnt a problem.

Ok fine call me a liar. I will be pleased to inform my party we aren't doing what we are doing. It is one thing to disagree. It is another to go to that level. Sometimes DD is more effect than to heal because sometimes you are dropping a low HP, high damage mob. We make a good pace. EXP is usually pretty good. We don't have waits between mobs unless I had to suddenly rebuff everyone which usually never happens since I stagger everyone. We don't die. I have monks who pull pull pull. Sometimes I have KEI and sometimes we I am the only caster in the party. I still say you have to live at 52 with gheal in Fear as primary healer and 107 wis to appreciate truelly being efficient. I DoT and DD and buff. Sorry. Oh and I am talking full healing. NT, CB, NR, whatever. We have been doing this since I am 24. I know that it isn't just me. My party is skilled and generally rock and we have been playing together forever and knows what the other can do. I rarely go below 40m and then i quickly work my way back up to near full.

Sorry I don't fit in your party line and I give my honest opinion.

Ok new disclaimer to my party.

Dear Party,

Thank you for taking pity on me by playing with me despite the fact I offer you "nothing". I know you might say in the middle of our party that we are doing well, getting good exp, no deaths but it just isn't the case. And if you disagree and think we are actually doing well, please don't tell the DG. You will wreck their world view and they will say you are telling half truths.

After reading all of the posts ~whew~ I have to agree with Aidon (I think it was him : ) who stated that he felt the spell should be at a level higher then 54. I agree it should be around 58.

I duo with my husband who is a paladin, simply because finding a group for either of our classes sucks. Even with him healing himself between pulls it can be rough pulling blues. The husband with his selfbuffs gets around 3.5 to 4.5 hps or higher easy, so my healing is a bit strained. I think at about 58 the 75% heal would be a blessing for us right now getting experience.

I can appreciate the poster who posted about the casual gamers who play clerics around level 54, they are right to a point it will put a strain on them for grouping some. But being honest I only group if I am asked or get lucky and a friends needs me and has room for myself and my husband.

LFG is just not productive and I can't seem to get the knack for quad kiting. So when I solo I am doing more root/dotting then anything else which is extremely boring.

I like the idea of the new spell but would it have rather been more of a cestial heal then a complete one, with a smaller return or cap if you will so the clerics would still be the desired healers. And as someone else stated, a group heal would have been really nice too since on raids with my guild, I am almost always in a caster group and a group healing would be more productive in my experiences.

Just my 2 copper on the ideas stated,

Raey

~(edit)spell checker is my friend...hehehe~

LONG POST Ahead. Just needed to get off my chest all the misconceptions you folks seem to have. Thx!

*edit* - Wow lots of good points. Too bad it wasn't presented in a more mature manner or it could have stayed.

See Rule #1:
pub13.ezboard.com/fthedru...ID=1.topic (http://pub13.ezboard.com/fthedruidsgroveboardpostingrulesandpolicy.showMess age?topicID=1.topic)

"No matter how important the information is or how useful it may be, a post will be deleted if it is belligerent, uses personal attacks or is written in a manner that may incite bad feelings."

Just to reply to the couple of people that made statements to the effect:

"Clerics get ports already....spiritstones. So, where is my DA?"

-- Shiny Brass Idol

-- Earring of the Frozen Skull

Just wanted to clear the air on the "our skills are pimped out" argument.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled whatever you call it....

"Sometimes DD is more effect than to heal because sometimes you are dropping a low HP, high damage mob."


Ok, so your NOT healing too much, so why didnt you say that in the first place? You made it seem like you were healing, nuking, dot'ing, etc all at the same time. If you cant elaborate then expect skepticism taht you can do all of that stuff at the same time. When your clearly now saying thats not the case.

Oh, and trust me i know how high damage groups barely have to heal, thats the groups i try and form. What you dont seem to realize is many Druids have different class makeups constantly in their groups, and are grouping with different people. They dont have the same set of people that make things so easy for them. Sometimes the tank isnt lvl 60, sometimes the dps isnt so high that they barely have to heal. Sometimes a Druid actually has to be a main healer and heal regularly leaving him unable to nuke, dot, etc. Thats what we're speaking about here, not situations where you barely have to heal and can nuke because your groups dps is so high.

Oh, and your post was misleading to make it seem like we could do everything at once, which isnt the case. That was your exxageration, not mine /

Think Daanya Barney 2k1 missed the Cleric meeting... :( I even had free coffee and donuts.

Let me say this Daanya, 28th is the patch, this is the 22nd. Maybe you should discuss this on your Class Boards, VI does read the Boards.

Be Well,

How many charges are on a spiritstone?

SBI is 1
Earring of the Frozen Skull is 4

*edit*
See Rule #1:
pub13.ezboard.com/fthedru...ID=1.topic (http://pub13.ezboard.com/fthedruidsgroveboardpostingrulesandpolicy.showMess age?topicID=1.topic)

"No matter how important the information is or how useful it may be, a post will be deleted if it is belligerent, uses personal attacks or is written in a manner that may incite bad feelings."

Fyyrlu,

Sure, a spiritstone may have unlimited charges, but unlimited charges of a completly useless item is still...well...useless.

Anyway, I was responding to the "Where is my DA" posts.

It's just that I consistently have an SBI on me.

And is a pain in the butt to go get another one, once it's burned off.

And never having had a spiritstone, did not know if it had charges or not. T'was not a rhetorical question.

Ok, well the places I hunt have different kinds of mobs. So, *some* of the mobs are high damage but low HP, others are resistant and hit sufficiently hard. I evaluate the situation of that one mob! So lets say we are doing Chardok.

1. Pull is normal sarnak. The party is buffed. I epic, I dot, I sit, toss in a heal, toss in another two heals, I finish it off with a dd, top off the puller and tank.

2. Next pull, caster sarnak. I heal my puller since it was getting nuked along the way, I epic, dot, re-thorn, heal the mt, toss in a dd. Heal the puller and tank.

3. Nuking sarnak. I heal up the puller and epic and dot, heal the tank, then dd the sarnak til it is dropped. Not healing after that since I dropped it quickly and no one got hurt.

4. Undead sarnak. Hits ok, low hp. I med the fight out since it is easy and top off the puller and tank at the end. Catch up on mana.

I don't act like a robot each pull. I take the situation at hand and do what is neaded but yes, I do DD and I do full healing. I completely understand that my special little party is different. They are good players and we have been together forever. But that being said we came through my levels and our armor together. I was once 50. At 60 I was still in a mix of Fear and ES. We have improved as everyone does in the game but it worked back when we had utter crap for gear and it works now. I can heal in Sebilis, Chardok, HS, FG, Umbral, Hole, akheva. I have done it for the entry way in Ssra. I can't in CT (other than slime pool) or deeper in Ssra. I am at heart a healing druid and that is what I do the most everywhere. It has been a fight for my party to get me to dd more which I became better at very recently.


Ok looked at our parsing. The kind of stuff I am talking about does about 5-9k damage per mob. One was 11, 2 12k and 14k. And I charm stuff with Karana too.

I'm going to go with the absurd argument. However just because it's absurd, it's still valid.

There is a way for any Class to get near unlimited Divine Auras. All it requires is to complete the 10th Ring. The Dain gives you a scroll with, I believe, 5(?) charges of Divine Aura on it. You can recharge this scroll at any time by maintaining good Dain faction and simply handing it to him.

Now you can also spawn the Dain an infinite amount of times. Simply do the Shawl Quests up to 8 anytime you need to recharge the Scroll.

At any rate, there are options and items out there for DA. And as for Faithstones/Spiritstones, take a look at my post on page 17 or 18.

Just curious but do you think Verant was aware of all of our issues before we pointed them out? Do you think pointing out the watering down of our abilities justifying our abilities being taken away might have had any influence? How much do you think the silent or the satisfied Druid actually contributed to these changes?

Furthermore, the history of Whineplay proves whining is what gets changes. When a class is broke, they whine more. Right now, it just happens to be Druids, and the most proactive of us have been fighting to get changes.

If we all sat here and never talked about any of this with any complaints, i dont even think we would've had one change.

Ok, I may not have expressed myself very well earlier. I was not bashing druids who express concern over issues and strive to have those issues resolved, such as yourself. I was bashing those (non-druids) that see the changes happen, and say "All those damn druid whiners get what they want all the time."

Well one of the boards (Stratics or Vault) did a recent poll asking people what the "primary" character and still druids were well above any other class. Maybe more druids are board readers but it was still the favorite class. Think it was 11% druids and the next was at 7%.

The only polls I have ever seen were of characters total, and 14% were warriors, 11% druids and 10% clerics. That includes alts. Please show proof of your data. Mine comes for EQVault statistics of registered characters on Tarew Marr.

Wow.

First off, none of this has even been implemented, and even it is, whose to say what changes to it we will see.? And, I suspect they working on things for other classes as well. Everyone should cool off and wait and see what happens. New things on test seem to be appearing daily. Seems a waste of time to rant on about something, only to find the next day there is something else to rant about..etc.

Second, there seems to be alot of wide ranging generalizations being flung about by everyone as well as a lot of assumptions. I get tired of hearing sweeping generalizations about classes such as "all druids" this or that. You dont know me, you dont know how i play, you dont know how i feel about anything to do with everquest, so dont lump everyone together..please and thank you.

I would also like to respond to this:

"I have sent, at a minimum, 3 dozen comments to the dev board about how to upgrade clerics. Not one has been answered. You druids raise a whine fest in a petition? Prayers are answered!"

You are making an assumption here, first off, that the reason we are seeing these changes is due to a petition or due to people in the druid community raising concerns. /Shrug. Maybe, or maybe they have their own reasons for it. Seems like possibly a lot of changes may be coming for many classes., maybe its in anticipation of the new expansion or some other reason, who knows?
Even if it is due to druids speaking up, i really dont know what this has to do with anything at all. Unless it is to scold us for saying anything..(and,as you call it a "whine fest" im assuming you do in fact take a negative opinion of this action). I find this quite strange considering in the same breath you mention that you have done some complaining yourself. Additionally a quick look at ANY class board and you will find a whole lot of "whining". Every class seems to have concerns.


Lets not put the cart before the horse. Why dont we just wait and see what happens? And, to be quite frank, I am fast getting tired of this game. NOt because of the game itself or the abilities of my class but the absolute immaturity of people and all the name calling, mud slinging, and class hatred. Call me crazy but I always figured a video game was intended as entertainment and a diversion from rl.

"I have sent, at a minimum, 3 dozen comments to the dev board about how to upgrade clerics. Not one has been answered. You druids raise a whine fest in a petition? Prayers are answered!"


Notice, posting over 3 dozen times on the dev board is commenting, while druids raise a whine fest in a single petition.

Double Standard Much?

Umm,, Druids pay 20k for Moonfire. You CAN nuke, you CAN stun very well, you CAN fear, you CAN do alot of things. You have the same choice. If your ever FM, and i know you are, dont blame your class on the fact that all your doing is healing, blame yourself. I wrote a post in the general section talking about what annoys me about clerics, and the one thing i see over and over again are Clerics sitting 95% of the time their grouped. You know their FM 3/4's of that time, but they just sit there and act as though all they can do is heal. When a good cleric can do much more than that.


Ok, I'll break this down a little. We can nuke. Look at the ratio. Not very useful.

I can fear. OMG, I can't believe you brought this into your argument. Let's see what the group in CT thinks of me when I fear a mob lol.

Yes, indeed clerics can stun. I stun -- a lot.


I would blame myself if I sat there at FM and didn't use my mana in some. Point here is this isn't what I do. When I am FM I stun, I know my class and how to play it. I also know that any new druid or shaman spells that go live will not affect me one iota, since I never actually try to get pickup groups anymore. Just no fun. Get a guild group or group of friends. Very easy to do.

Too many posts, LOL! I think I missed a few posts, but anyway...

On another note - She kinda proves the exception to the rule - she states that most shamans would never take a druid char (because they are so underpowered), yet she does. And, I'm guessing that since she's an admin here she considers her Druid her main.
Either way, If she wants to flame me or tell me to stuff it she can do so here or over at the Crucible.
OK what person said this? Listen up, the thread at the Crucible PROVES this, and all you have to do is go read it. None of those shamans would quit their shaman to switch to a druid or start one unless for port-bot purposes. FYI my druid is my main right now but it hasn't always been so -- lots of times I had a cleric main or a shaman main. I didn't have a shaman then switch, so you got it backwards.

I'm not even going to bother reading ALL THE POSTS because I know half of them are probably not even on topic... so here I will be presenting my opinion on this "Druid CH Spell"..

From day 1 of Everquest druids have NEVER been meant to do any one thing exceptionally well. If any of you remember, druids were meant to have average nukes, average healing power, average buffs, and a means of getting around. This was all provided.

However, lately, with the new "caster balancing" and "class balancing" that VI has been pulling off, there has been consistent calls from the druid community as a whole to upgrade druids.

I am not here advocating keeping the druids the way they are, but THIS DRUID COMPLETE HEAL SPELL IS NOT THE ANSWER!!!

From reading the role of the druid as a class that I have presented above, one can easily see that they were never meant to be exceptional at any one given thing. They were meant to be dwarfed by clerics at healing, they were meant to be dwarfed by wizards at nuking, but it was the combination of all their abilities that made them the great class that they were. However, this heal invades upon clerical territory.

Currently, the entire end game revovles around setting a CH rotation for a MT. This should not have happened in the first place, and VI appears to be trying to give clerics a new role, as can be seen with the new spells that they are receiving. However, it is doubtful that we will be seeing the end of the CH chain in EQ1. In order to change that would mean a complete uprooting of current end-game mechanics, and I doubt that Verant would want to put up with that. So right now, they are just attempting to bring all the other classes up to par in the end game.

Right?

Think about it. By giving druids this heal, you completely eliminate the need or even the preferance of having a cleric in an EXP group. Clerics can heal, they can stun, and they can buff, but they cannot nuke (without using some extremely whacked out nukes, in terms of efficiency), they cannot snare, they cannot cast regen, and they cannot evac. By giving druids a heal that can heal 75% of a person's hp up to a max of 3k hp, this eliminates the preferance for a cleric.

In your average AAexp group, a main tank is assumed to have around 3.5-4k hp, with some having a bit more. 75% of 4k is 3k, which means that each heal will heal 3k hp. It is doubtful that you will ever need to heal more than that amount. Also, with all the other benefits having a druid presents, it is clearly evident that clerics are now useless when you can rather have a druid.

In raids, the complete heal chain reigns supreme. However, the CH chain can how be dissassembled and replaced with druids, because most likely there will not be a need to heal for more than 3k hp. Also, since in my own personal experience there are a whole lotta more druids than clerics, you can have a larger chain with less time in between each cast. This means that clerics are no longer the kings of healing that they should be.

Without their supremancy in healing, clerics have nothing to offer a group, and much less to offer on a raid. When before you might need 8 clerics for an encounter, you can now do with 3 clerics and 6 druids. Druids should NOT be getting this heal. This is NOT a fix to the druid healing situation. This is a cheap attempt by VI to attempt to fix druid healing without actually putting much thought into it, and giving them a less potent carbon-copy of a cleric spell.

An example of a druid fix would be something like this:

Blessing of Nature
mana: 300
cast time: 4.0
heals: 3000 hp over 3 ticks

This is a 10:1 ratio heal that heals over 18 seconds, does not invade cleric territory of healing, and does not nullify the preferance of a cleric in a exp group.....

Discuss.... and flame away (if you must)

Nice idea on a spell Kicer

Kicer I'd take that heal anyday over this ghetto CH. I think alot of druids would rather have that group HOT spell than this "CH" spell too (although the group HOT needs its mana cost reduced by like 100-150 ;p). Really I see little use for this ghetto CH on high-end raids - it doesnt heal enough to comfortably be part of a CH chain, especially if a mob flurries. With more guilds doing ssra/Vt and PoP around the corner, this heal will at best be a 40% heal or less in a chain. Either get rid of the spell and give an alternative, or raise the cap higher than 3k, otherwise it wont be helpful on raids only the xp groups supposedly druids will be getting (definitely not wanted in any XP groups currently no matter what clerics say to themselves). Most people seem to be getting their huge amounts of AA pts soloing or 2-boxing which this spell wont affect in the least ;p.

Yes, that's the answer, give druids a heal over time that is 2-3 times better than the cleric's. ;)

How about approaching this from another angle:

Let's assume that these changes go in as is. A RL friend wants to start playing EQ for the first time, and wants to play a healing class. Let's see how you would convince them to choose a cleric. In your explanation, you must cover the following points:

1. How long it will take to level each of the 3 classes, solo, grouped, or powerleveled, relative to each other.

2. Compare healing spell lines.

3. Compare nukes and DoTs.

4. Compare buffs and utility spells.

5. Compare other major abiltities (Slow, Ports, Rez).

6. Compare pets.

7. Compare epics.

Now, the final caveat: this friend plays "casually" meaning only a few hours a day and an occasional weekend day, and will never join an uberguild or go on raids.

Ok, all set :) . Go for it...convince this friend that playing a cleric makes sense in any way, shape, or form...

Lyria, with those constraints your friend would be a fool not to pick a Shaman. Solo's well, great group desirability, good in duos all the way up to large raids. I would have no problem convincing your "friend" to pick a barbarian shammy. Barbarian because they are a casual player.

Philomath

Nearly all the clerics whining only point out the things we CAN do, no matter how bad at it we are, then the huge mass of things that they CAN'T do, and complain that any improvement to druids isn't needed, or that our responses to them are wrong, which uses only the points we mention that support our argument, then throwing out 12 more cleric support points.

Nearly all the druids that reply point out how halfassed we are at things we can do, and how clerics are blatantly overpowered at healing (CH, and all the brokenness that it causes), and admit that clerics are underpowered in every area EXCEPT healing.

The way it looks to me is that it basically boils down that most druids want better healing ability, and for clerics to have better non-healing abilities, whereas most clerics want better non-healing ability and for druids to not have better healing ability.

To the guy who said he'd trade DA for quad kiting, I'd take that bargain any day, and I'll trade my Lumi staff (clickable quad kite nuke) for your rez stick too while we're at it.

About overpriced spells: sticking to healing type spells, we have Celestial healing(clr), which is easy to get and cheap. Torpor(shm) which is WAY too hard for them to get, but a powerful spell that completely changes the tactics of a shaman with it, from one without. Nature's Recovery(dru) which is hard to get, and nearly completely worthless in it's current form. Word of Recovery (clr) group CH, not too familiar with it though.

Then we have clerics throw out all the non-heal spells they have to pay rediculous prices for, like BoA, BAotR, Judgement, MoK, MoR and whatever else.

Guess what? We have expensive non-heal spells also!

Moonfire, Mask of the Stalker, RotG, and Nature's Recovery, then we've got a bunch of wonderfully useless spells that people love to overcharge for, like our little pet (who's about as useful under normal situations as the cleric pet, only more expensive), our stop the rain spell (not snow, just rain), Spirit of Oak (100% useless now that we have PotC, but still at least 8k on my server), Foliage shield, and the wonderful asshat componentless eb/lev spells.

I don't want to be better than a cleric at healing, I want to be a suitable substitute in zones other than melee-solo zones where they don't even need me (yay, pity groups), rather than blowing all of my mana to keep a tank alive through one fight, then having to med for 10 minutes for the next fight. And what's really annoying is that I could have soloed the same fight and used less mana! That, to me, indicates a little bit of unbalance.

Let's assume that these changes go in as is. A RL friend wants to start playing EQ for the first time, and wants to play a healing class. Let's see how you would convince them to choose a cleric.

Let's try this angle instead. You're friend is a semi-hardcore gamer who likes to play several hours a night and some on weekends. S/he likes to raid and wants to be valuable in most every high-end encounter. S/he wants to be awarded the best equipment and wants his/her epic to be a priority for the guild. S/he wants to be sought by high level guilds and never wear a LFG tag in the most desirable new zones in the game.

Let's see, how would you convince s/he to be a Druid?

Primero
Druid

Let's try both angles. How do we convince them to play a healer class at all?

Your friend should play a rogue and not worry about it...

For all the Clerics who laugh about not using fear, than cry about not being able to get groups or solo...

Figure out what in the heck your spells do. There are plenty of 60 Plus Necros and Sks that use the same fear spell you have, effectively in Solo AND Group situations. You have mem blur spells and stun spells and dd spells and undead spells. It seems many of you did not take the time to learn how to use many of them.

I want clerics to get more versatility to! I think it would be very nice. More power to you! Go get it!

You are not going to find it here on the Druids Grove. No matter what you think or believe, we did not make this change. We pointed out (Well they did , because I was a desenter at the time, but that is not relevant) the fact that our healing ability has not scaled. VI looked at this problem and decided a more scalable heal was the answer.

There is not one Cleric here who can say that Druid healing ability has kept up with the inflation of Caster hit points, let alone SAs etc. Stop blaming the Druids because your class is not Versatile enough, I think 99.9999% of us agree with you. Go tell someone who can fix it. Write a petition (or a bulleted list of sugggestions you all agree on :) )with well thought out requests for changes and I will even come sign it with you. (I did not even do that here).

Druids are not your enemy. I want every single other person playing the game to have a great time when they are playing. It is time to stop blaming players for enhancements made to their class, if you have a problem with Clerics take it up with the people that can do something about it.

I know the people at VI know where your main message boardis, I truly wish they posted there more for you. Maybe they do not feel your board is a moderated enough environment for them to feel comfortable posting there. I really don't know, just a suggestion. It is not the fault of Druids that you perceive the people at VI do not care about you.

The Druids have done nothing to you at all. I am going to keep saying it and maybe it will get through your heads. They have already said publicly they are increasing your utility, why not wait and see what that means.

If you want to whine about the current state of Clerics, this is probally not the best forum to do so.

I have resigned my self to never visiting this string again.... there is more pathetic flaming, whining, and crying from 2 or 3 people on this thread that make it not worth it to continue to read anymore. If you are a cleric and want to see a change to you class, and have some reasonable idea... Bugger off and get to your boards, and post the idea. If you are a cleric that is petty and small, shallow and sorry, with no real kind of creativity with the spells you are given, I suggest you log into EQ get a second acct. Create a Druid. twink the heck outta him, plvl him to lvl 34, then learn how to play a class that will own you, and it is not because of spells we are given, but because you lack the necessary thing that really makes this game unique. creativity and Imagination. If you don't want to make a druid alt, go out and experiment.... try out some of those spells that you never memorize, talk so some of your cleric friends, guildmates, whoever, and get some clue, that there are ways to do things other than just 40% mt hps ch sit med 40% MT hps ch med...... I tell you there is so much more to this game than hot keys :P

Today we formed a group in a zone that consisted of a warrior bard cleric rogue druid wizzy and had a aoe nuking fest.... the exp was not the greatest, but it was fun, and seeing the cleric jumping around with kei nuking everything that moved while I healed with kei..... how else to say it but the cleric was having fun.... with better healing, my friend the cleric will be able to have fun more often, and that makes me happy.

get a clue!!!! for those of you clerics out there that have a clue, congratulations I know a lot of clerics that do not rely on the group for exp, and I am glad you are one of them and I believe you need assistance on your utility spells and some improvments to your ability to solo :) I hope you get it soon, I am sure it will make my life as a druid better too :)

IMHO, clerics should be more like 3rd edition D&D clerics....

They have a powerful "heal" spell... "Heal", and druids get it also (well, at least they did in 2nd edition, I'm not that up on 3rd edition).

But also, clerics have a little spell called harm, which does overpowering damage.

I'm not in any way advocating clerics receiving a "Harm" type spell, but they should get something that does high amounts of damage against a specific MOB type, and I'm not talking about their undead line....

Imagine, if you will, Verant flagging some upper-end MOBs like the ones in VT, cursed creatures like Arch-Lich, the Cursed (duh), and cursed dragons like Zlandicar, and then having them make a CLERIC-ONLY spell, which would do high amounts of damage against creatures flagged as "cursed", or "demonic".

This spell could be something insane like:

Divine Exorcism
cast time: 3.0
mana: 400
damage vs. "cursed/demonic MOBs" 2000
recast time: 5.0

or something along those lines

However, I stand by my previous position, druids SHOULD NOT be the masters of instantaneous heal, but rather be the average healers, with some good instantaneous heals but also some good heal over time, like torpor (except worse), thus balancing them between clerics and shamans in healing.

Remember, not every class can get everything......

Here is something folks arent taking into account.
People are saying druids can do x amount of things right now. Ok when druids can now do x+1 things and the new thing is a very high mana heal where is that extra mana going to come from.

The extra 400 per shot of a new "ch" will have to come from somewhere. Do people really think druids will be able to CH/DS/snare/regen/buff/nuke/etc with their current mana pools/mana regen? If they choose to CH in a group then other things are going to fall by the wayside.
If druids are CHing in groups they will not have the mana reserves to do all "cool" stuff clerics are saying that gets druids into groups.

WTF you are insulting me because I play my class well and don't purposely let my group die cuz I'm bored?

I'm saying if you are bored in an XP group and noones risking death...maybe its time to try something more difficult.

"getting in the nitty gritty"? Are you trying to sound funny instead of saying melee with my leafblower? If I see a druid meleeing in my group, they are no longer in my group. That's beyond retarded. You could get 10x the efficiency medding and nuking.

I'm saying that I don't spend half the fight sitting down scared of aggro.

And you should see my melee stats /smirk. 1hb 108 baby! 1hs 127 woo woo! Yeah I melee a ton ;)

Haha, we suck because we want efficient exp? Go back to your dreamworld of LSD and humping trees.

You suck if you refuse to group unless its the most efficient grouping possible. Especially if you then come here and complain because you can't find a group.

Good for you? And that was a generalization. You can heal in CT/Ssra if you have a good group. But considering how you like CRs and "getting in the nitty gritty" no wonder you are dependant upon clr.

Sorry, but no..a druid can't heal a comm2 camp on the 2nd floor of Ssra as the primary healer, no matter how good the group is. Elites. Sure I might keep the tank alive through an Elite kill. We'll then be sitting on our asses for 10 minutes while I med back up again.

Aye, I know. See the "Bitter Druids" raise hell and convince VI to give them what they want.

VI gives us what they feel we need. It just so happens that they've pulled their heads out of the sand regarding Druids.

Cry me a river. Unless you suck, you can keep any group alive in virtually any circumstance at least 80% as well as me, and you can solo 15 times better than me. Yea you have it so rough, crybaby.

I'm sorry you can't maintain your monopoly on being the only class required for any raid and 90% of the XP groups of the appropriate level range. Oh lordy, maybe, just maybe, Clerics will have to do what most of the rest of the game is forced to do, in order to be desired. Be good at their class. Not be a loot hungry whore. Make friends.

I'm so terribly sorry that there is the slighest possibility that your special little cleric pedestal may be brought down just a tad so that you can't get your every whim in game.

Oh wait. That's right. That still will happen because you still have CH, better heals than any other priest class, and can rez.

Who's being a crybaby?

Tell me, where does NT drop?
Wait.. where does Judgement drop? BAotR? Aego? BoA?

NT drops the same place DL does /smirk

BAotR is a hell of alot easier to get than PotC or PotG. Judgement is a hell of alot easier to get than Moonfire. Aego? Pfft, I don't know a level 60 cleric who doesn't have it. BoA is the only one remotely difficult to find...and its one of the more common level 60 spell drops in Luclin.

But we were discussing heals and how you think Druids should have to pay out the nose to get their new one... Again, how much did you have to pay for your CH?

Um, there is no group without a slower. Not even clerics can keep up on unslowed mobs with unhasted tanks. Don't go on a tirade about that, please.

I wish I had read this statement earlier...it would have saved me much time. You obviously don't have much of a clue. You only group if you have an enchanter. You must have a slower to heal your tank. Next you will tell me your tank must be a warrior too, and you need to have a bard as well, or you will go lom after every pull.

Fear? Have you absolutely lost your mind? When is the last time you've seen ANYONE use fear? Don't post this BS please.

Last week. Me and a SK duoing in ME. Great XP because I didn't have to heal him and could nuke instead, which is much much more mana efficient for me. Again, you obviouly have been stuck in the same rut for a while now.

Point 1: Clerics are so far from necessary. You are clueless if you think they are. Get out from your protective shell and try healing for an exp group. You will find, STRANGELY ENOUGH, you can and do succeed admirably, even without this new ridiculous heal.

Sure if I have a slower and am XPing in a gimp zone like HS, Chardok, Seb, or Velks.

Of course a level 55 druid trying to heal in these zones even with a slower is going to make a slow XPing group. I thought you were all about efficiency, Ms. "I won't group unless I have a chanter".

Point 2: I will show you in language youi can understand how this lessens the desirability of clerics.

* At any one time there are X exp groups.
* Within these X, some percentage have a cleric healer, some have druid, some have shaman.
* This spell will increase the percentage of shaman slightly, and druid considerably. Because the number of exp groups is constant, the percentage of clerics must obviously go down.

False premise No.1: There is a set number of XP groups at any given time.

False Premise No. 2: Increasing Druid heals will make clerics have a harder time finding groups.

It simply will allow those groups that cannot find a cleric to continue hunting at almost the same difficulty as if they had a cleric. Sorry, your monopoly on non-gimp hunting zones may be broken. I have no sympathy. Go complain to Verant to hurry up and improve your diversity.

Guess what...when Verant gives you improvements, you won't see me over on the cleric board whining about your improvements.

I have sent, at a minimum, 3 dozen comments to the dev board about how to upgrade clerics. Not one has been answered. You druids raise a whine fest in a petition? Prayers are answered!

our "prayers" were "answered" after close to a year of debate, testing, revamping ideas, proposing new ideas, and intense discussion. We didn't whine. We laid out exactly what issues Druids faced. Verant saw them and agreed with many. Why? Because they were true.

What is wrong with you? Of course we want versatility. Do you see any on test yet? Do you? Perhaps this is why we are not happy.

<cough> Its been close to a year since we began the discussions which eventually lead to the petition and these changes. Sorry they haven't given you magical versatility powers (well more than you've already obtained from luclin) in a day.

The aggro game? WE INVENTED THE AGGRO GAME. Every cleric has had to learn the hard way how to time his heals and nukes. Don't even begin to critisize there.

<cough again> Don't talk to druids about aggro. We know all about aggro. Druid spells are inherantly more aggro than other classes with similar spells.

This is really a good step in the right direction. Now, Clerics won't be necessary for an exp group, but are still preferred over anyone else.

For example:

Your group consists of a Warrior, Enchanter, Paladin, Ranger, and Wizard. You need a healer, but the only person around is a Druid. You can now have a viable group because the Druid will have enough healing power to hold up the group up, and if someone dies, there's a Paladin to rez.

But if you don't happen to have that Paladin, and instead have a Monk, that group will be looking for a Cleric to finish it off. The LFG Druid will still be sitting there as the group finds a Cleric.

Fear without snare solo means warrior gate. I have another spell does a btter job of that. Fear with a snare can equal good times if not particularly good xp. Trouble is most Druids or Rangers (that I've met) would rather solo snare kite, than duo fear kite. Fear in almost all other situatuions means getting kicked out of a group fast. Only case I've known to date where a group wanted me to fear a snared mob is at DN entrance against Phase Spiders.

By mem blur i assume you mean Atone. Good Pl tool. But again not a spell worth having up. Only real use is after gaining agro after a heal when mob is on top of you. Assuming you get it off and it's not interuppted, it wipes the hate list, leaving the mob to hate the first thing it see. you. Rather use DB or Da for it's Anti taunt and healing factor.

Stuns. Believe it or not, espcially since I've been a third group Cleric alot, I've tried hard to get a good thing going with these. But they are too resistant to have an effect at the level I'm at now. Worked at a lower level, but now just good as a last ditch effort to try to keep a mob from gating, or to get agro off a chanter and on to you since we can take a couple more hits than a chanter.

Our DD has same resistant problems. Not a unique argument by us, as Mages and Enchanters have same problems. Not as big a problem for us as Mages as we have our Heals to compensate. No one looks for a Cleric for their Nukage ability.

Undead spells. Too specialized. Work good on undead for sure. But not enough that your group will want you to throw more than 1. Those that have played Primary healer know that your group, on a norm, don't like to think their healer is going below 80% mana on anything but healing.

Root. Just like every class that has it(and every caster class does in some form) I've used it to park mobs. Usually only if no other is available, or the other rooter is getting knocked around. There again, groups tend to want me to concentrate on health bars and not mobs.

I'm glad no one has mentioned our Calm line. I'd trade it to a warrior for a rusty two handed sword, and consider my self on top that deal.

Just hoping to point out that I and others have tried to make more out of what we have. But whether game obstacles or how other players feel, we've be delegated to 3 roles. You can argue that we could push harder for more roles, not join groups that don't accept our wanting more things to do, but there again it's from a point of view that you don't have to join a group, and can make xp otherwise. As a 56 Cleric, I have no other option than grouping, so have to compromise or log. Maybe if I reach 60 someday, my options will be expanded a little, but they aren't now.

I've tried mybest to be more versatile as a cleric, with the spells I have. Now like Druids saying they needed an upgrade to keep them in the game, I feel we need more of an upgrade than whats currently being offered to make us a more versatile player. As has been pointed out, rightfully so, and is starting to sink into me and others, we have to wait and see exactly what the final outcome of the Test is.

I will add a few things here,

1) Druid point of view
----------------------
As a druid, i like this spell. If it goes live i will play again with my 55 druid who is now retired as i think that it will give me some chance to get into XP groups. I stopped this char at 55 bored of soloing. No pickup groups and in guild groups the bad feeling that if i was not here, they could have fitted my slot by something much better.
At 55 a druid is unable to be the main healer of a group. A druid in group means you also need a cleric. So why bother with a druid.
In my opinion druid should be decent healer


1b) Heal and travel
--------------------
Also, some zones are today overcamped and some are just plain empty because no way to go there easely without a port and you know what ... the best travel class now never groups.
I remember when my druid was 30/40. I often created a group in a crowdy place (me being the main healer) and we just moved to another one accross norath to find a good spot.
At 50+ no druid in group means everybody stays in zone.
So with this new spell a pickup group will be able to be created in an overcamped place and with the druid will be able to go elsewhere if no camp is open.

2) non druid point of view
---------------------------
As a non druid (yes i switched to a bard), i like this spell. I have spent too long time LFG (or solo !), not because i was not wanted in groups but because NO clerics were around. Sometimes you can see 10 15 ppl sitting waiting for a cleric to pop.

Every class in the game can be interchanged by another (warrior/paladin/SK monk/rogue chanter/bard ...) but the clerics is the only class that can heal past 50. So no cleric no play. If your cleric quits the group, the whole group has to find another one or disband. What i mean is that many people are just sitting not playing because not enough clerics are in game.
This spell will give a chance to all players to play more because there will be more healers.
And how many raids are canceled because not enough clerics online.

3)Clerics situation
-----------------
I guess that clerics will still be on high demand. If a group has to choose between a Druid or a cleric they will choose the cleric because:
- Resses : it will be faster to rezz a member (who said chanter ?), less down time ...
- better and more efficient heals so better XP/efficency for the group
Yes the druid can do many more things but he is limited by his mana. So a healing druid wont be able to do much more.

Druids will only become an option when no cleric is available or in some places like KC when no sower is in group.

Again, i think the biggest trouble today is that there are simply not enough healers in post 50 game.

4)About the level of the spell.
-----------------------------
I see some guys saying that this spell should be given at 58 or 60. !!!
Druid healing abilities become underpowered around 45 and totally useless at 50. So how do you fill the gap between 50 and 58/60 ?
Whats the point of having this spell at 60 if you have to stay totally useless between 50 and 60?
As i stated before, many players in the 50s spend hours sitting waiting for a healer to start a group. A 58/60 druid will not be the answer to this problem.
The same applies for non Uber Guilds and raiding problems.

I think that someting between 52 and 54 is just fine. It will give back some interest to the druid class at these levels and fix the healing power lack found on EQ nowadays.

In summary
-------------
I just hope that this spell will come live very soon:
- druids will get a chance to find groups at last
- small / medium guilds will be able to raid a bit more
- EVERYBODY will have chance to play more as creating groups will be easier. less healing shortage, more gaming less sitting.
- with druids again in groups, i hope everybody will be more spreaded out on the various zones (more XP more fun more loot for everybody)
- this spell is usefull in early/mid 50's not at 60

Wolas retired 55 preserver

Give clerics Death Touch (they get that in D&D) ;)

I have to chime in on this huge thread in support of this Test spell. I know it will probably get changed before it goes Live, but IF it did..

Raid-wise, this heal would be incredible to me. My guild is small. We usually have two 50+ groups online at any given time. We do Kael, not Ssra. I'm usually the only Druid on our small raids, and thus the only backup for our Cleric unless someone 2-boxes. Conceivably we could take on some more content if I was capable of healing tanks more efficiently.

Aside from raids- a healing upgrade would get me grouping again. Currently, my grouping outside of my guild is a rare event. It's too depressing to sit LFG at a zone, I just wait for guild groups.

Druids are priests, and healing is a major part of our abilities. It annoys me to no end the mindset that clerics are required healer for an exp grind. In some places, a group will too often sit at the zone waiting for a cleric amidst several Druids who are LFG. People will choose NO EXP AT ALL over less efficient exp- Gah! I hate it! Aidon is the one who hit the nail on the head when he said clerics have the monopoly on the non-gimpy exp zones. Unfortunately it stretches into the gimpy zones too- I grouped with guildies in Velks one time and listened to people in the Frenzy camp shout for a cleric without getting one for several hours. There were Druids who popped in during that time, they didn't get picked. A group at Frenzy- easy as pie, little-to-no-risk-of-death-unless-you-fall-off FRENZY does not need a cleric to stay alive- yet they kept a spot open for hours when another healer was available, and that gets on my nerves.

I don't want to be picked over a cleric. I have no beef with someone needing a healer and choosing a cleric over me when one's available. No problem. It's when there's no clerics around, a druid is LFG, but the group STILL will not invite a Druid because of the cleric "requirement"- that is the problem.

Bern said:
1. Pull is normal sarnak. The party is buffed. I epic, I dot, I sit, toss in a heal, toss in another two heals, I finish it off with a dd, top off the puller and tank.

Okay from what you just listed as your spells cast for one fight with a "normal sarnak" you are casting 4 heals from start to finish (minimum 175 mana per cast if only using Chloroblast, 175*4=700), plus epic (no mana cost), plus dot (could be anything from click drones to WD, 0 to 350 mana), plus a DD (approx 250 mana).

So at bare minimum you're spending 950 mana per fight, and that's on a "normal" sarnak -- a minimal damage, minimal hp mob for the zone -- not a named sarnak, not bridge keeper, not ancient guardian, not reinanimated dragoon, etc. And that's if you're not using nature's touch for any of those heals, which would be 400 mana per cast instead of 175.

Therefore from a conservative look at your own description, we must estimate that you are regenerating 950 mana from one fight to the next. If you're pulling one mob per minute, 10 tics in a minute, you have an amazing 95 mana/tic regen. And that is conservatively granting 0 mana on dots and only 250 mana on each DD (would be 320 for moonfire/wildfire).... and if you're casting a non-click dot, add another 250 for BoR, or 350 for WD.

I'm allowing the lowest-mana assumptions to offset any FT/focus/AAXP benefits from a more realistic lineup of spells, noting that chardok is indoors which eliminates BoK, the typical 250 mana DD used at our level. Also taking the "normal sarnak" pull as example.

Still, you're essentially claiming 100 mana/tic regen, so I can certainly see why someone might question that you're actually healing, nuking, and doting on every average pull at a steady pull rate. That sort of mana regen would be far from typical for most normal druid folke.

~Firemynd

The game is played in two different forms: Raids and Exp grinds. Sometimes the line is a bit fuzzy between the two, but usually it's clear when something is one or the other.

As far as Raids go, I think this will go a long way to help on a number of issues. Even though Clerics don't get anything, this will benefit them. No longer will they have the "raid guilt", a guilt which is on every high end Cleric because they feel they *must* attend a raid (and in numbers, at it) or see the raid be cancelled. This is quite a pressure, resulting in a high Cleric turnover at the high end game. This change will "spread the wealth" and allow Druids and Shaman (though to a lesser degree) to alleviate the pressure on Clerics. Raids will no longer be cancelled once they have less than 5 Clerics. A very positive thing.

I can forsee Complete Heal rotations that not only have Clerics but also Druids. You may say, "Kay, get real, Druids heal only 3K hitpoints max, Clerics do 10k, for same mana and same cast time". Then I refer you to numerous parsed logs. Clerics have made studies on Complete Heal chains and it turns out most Complete Heals during a rotation land for about 2k to 3k Hitpoints. It is actually necessary to have a larger safety margin, because unexpected things can happen which can drive up the damage that the main tank receives. Also, even though Complete Healing lands for 10,500 points, there is NO character in the whole of Everquest that has this amount of hitpoints. Very, very few encroach on 8k when fully raid buffed with high end buffs. This means that already a part of the Complete Healing potential is never achieved. I forsee Complete Heal rotations with Druids and Clerics woven among eachother. And that, ultimately, is a good thing.

Then we get exp grinds. You cannot deny it, this heal spell will carry over into the exp grinding situation as well. Looking at most regular exp groups I find myself in, I hardly ever have to scramble for mana. More often I am at maximum mana and nuke away (which often leads to the remarks "Oh, no, Cleric nuking, pull more!").

Mudflation has increased the DPS by players and decreased the relative DPS of monsters. Not because the monsters have been decreased in strength, but because the players have gotten better items, spells and abilities. Every expansion has increased this difference between players and monsters. I'm going to use Velketor's Labyrinth as an example. I remember that shortly after the revamp - which wasn't too long after Velious was released - you needed a solid group to do anything other than the zone-in ramp, or risk getting killed trying. Since then, Velious has been developed (new spells, new armor), Shadows of Luclin came with yet more spells, items, abilities. Need I say items that have Regeneration or Healing effects for non-Healing classes? Need I say Bind Wound Cap lifted? Extra Armor Class on newer, better items? Extra regeneration through Enchanced Regeneration?? The game got easier, for sure. Right now, people are soloing in Velks. A zone that you needed a solid group for at the start of Velious now can be soloed by someone in the post-Luclin era. Mudflation to its peak.

A group only needs so much healing to be sustained in the area where they are getting experience. As is clear from the above, the level of healing needed has decreased twofold. First, player damage output has increased so monsters die faster and second they have gained more ways to avoid and recover from damage. Overall, the need for Healers in general has decreased. A direct result is also that while Verant originally wanted to promote grouping (hence the grouping experience bonus), through mudflation they have destroyed their grouping ideas. Experience-wise, you do better with a group of 1-3 people than with a group of 4-6 these days. Another aspect of quicker monster dispatching is that you can clear a given area before it starts respawning. This downtime which is not because the group needs a break but because there's simply nothing to kill only enhances this.

Now lets look at healing in general for the three healing classes. Three factors are important for how much healing can be given, these being mana regeneration rate, general monster DPS (not pertaining to a single monster, but averaged say over an hour time) and ratio between hitpoints healed and mana cost.

Starting with the latter, most high end healing spells have on average a ratio of 3 hitpoints healed for 1 mana. I'll specifically address Complete Healing as a separate case, since the theoretical ratio on that one is 26 hitpoints healed for 1 mana. As I already said, this is never achieved, but what's a realistic value? Most tanks I know will have about 4k to 5k hitpoints during regular exp grinds, simply because they cannot be fully raid buffed and I'm taking an average tank here, not the top notch warrior for Uber_Guild_01. Most Clerics will tell you they start healing their tanks once they drop to about 40% hitpoints, which is at or around the "goes berserk" limit. This causes the Complete Healing to land at about 20% to 30% of the remaining hitpoints. Some Clerics like to play dangerous and heal lower, but the risk of losing your tank on an otherwise regular exp grind is not only stupid, but also shameful. Again, you want a safety margin and not start healing when the tank has all but a sliver of health left. Not to mention that you regularly want your tank to be at full health again when the next mob comes in, to avoid unneccesary agro because you needed to complete heal him after only a few hits when you didn't do so before the mob was engaged. This means your tank will be healed for about 3500 hitpoints each complete healing - which, by the way, comes close to what Druids are getting - making for a ratio of nearly 9 hitpoints healed for 1 mana. Let's be conservative and assume an average ratio of 5 hitpoints healed for 1 mana, across all healing spells used. This includes regeneration type spells.

Now, on to mana regeneration. I don't know the speed of mana regeneration of a Shaman who is canni-ing, but I'll assume that he can gain 1200 mana where a Druid or Cleric gains 800 mana through straight-up medding, so that they can each heal about 3k hitpoints through the different Complete Heal spells as they are now, in any given timeframe. Inadvertantly, mana regeneration determines the healing rate. Taking an average Druid or Cleric without enhanced mana regeneration but who is at the maximum of his meditation skill, this comes to about 30 mana per tick regenerated, or about 5 mana per second. As seen above, on average the heal ratio will be 5 hitpoints for 1 mana, so we get to a heal rate of 25 hitpoints per second, over all time - including downtime between pulls where no damage has to be healed. Add in effects like Clarity and whatmore and you can easily get a healing rate of 35 to 40 per second, without really pushing it with and mana song and clarity and Flowing Thought 15.

Now for a Cleric, Druid or Shaman to be locked into only healing, monsters must be able to maintain a DPS of exactly matching the heal rate, or better said a DPS of 25 to 40 (value as indicated above). This includes times where no mobs are present between pulls. I have yet to get into a group which is non-stop fighting with monsters constantly damaging players. Lets take it over an hour (3600 seconds), monster combined should do about 90k to 144k points of damage to the players to keep the Healers locked in healing.

Frankly, I doubt there are many places on Norrath or on the Moon where this DPS is achieved for regular exp grinds (once again, I'm NOT talking about raids). We all know that Shamans can reduce the DPS considerably already. When the damage output over time by monsters is less than computed above, it leaves mana for the Healers to do something else. Now, looking at the three healer classes, we see that Druids offer Damage Shields, Nukes with a good dmg/mana ratio, Snare, DoTs, Shamans offer Slow and various DoTs as well as Speed, and Cleric offer ... poor nukes (I'm not even considering Mark of Karn and Mark of Retribution, because the ratio's on those spells for normal exp grinds are even worse than our nukes). Now, if mana on Healers is left to spare, who has the best papers to offer the group something else? Clerics are in the third position here, definately.

The direct advantage here is that Druids finally can find a spot in exp grinds instead of soloing all the time. At the same time, Clerics are pushed out of this, since they are third rank Healers if they are not given anything in return to make them more versatile in a group (and if they do get something, I hope it's something unique). Shamans can solo, easily. Druids can solo, easily. Clerics cannot solo, although if the spells on test are any indication they will be able to hold their ground there a little better.

Clerics are all about supporting others. They are not there to increase the DPS of a group, they are there to sustain the DPS of a group over long periods of time. They heal, they do not damage. It takes a certain mindset to be a Cleric, since you are not actively engaging the mobs that are slain by the group. When was the last time you gained experience by healing instead of damaging? As many Clerics fear they are becoming third rank healers for experience groups, they see their source of experience running dry rather fast. Melees that rather solo than have a Cleric along because it would suppress their experience gain rate over time is what we already see happening. Given that in most cases exp groups do not need the excessive healing brought along with a Cleric and would rather have someone along who can heal sufficiently as well as do other things, Clerics make third place ...

Some people claim Clerics will still be called on for their Resurrection ability. Aside from the fact that Necromancers get a 93% resurrection and Paladins a 90% resurrection, I think you all know how often people bring corpses to me or any other Cleric for a resurrection outside of the group. Why need a Cleric if you can simply have a_Cleric_01 in another group res you? Especially with a Click-stick, it's almost trivial to be ressed these days.

With Velious and Luclin the ceiling slowly came down for Clerics and with the Complete Heal type spells on test we now also see the walls coming inward, squeezing us between Paladins and Druids - and the pressure is getting higher. How much longer before the class is crushed? This is what Clerics are screaming about now. This is what makes Clerics consider switching to other classes and 2-Box their Cleric when needed, or leave the game altogether. If Verant is not careful in the coming period, I'm afraid they reduce the game to 14 Classes again.

(Ah, but I know ... it's Verants way to reduce the Ragefire conflicts. They don't reduce the bottleneck, they simply aim to reduce the amount of Clerics pushing for it).

"BAotR is a hell of alot easier to get than PotC or PotG."

PotC is a simple quest that took me 15 minutes and about 750pp. I bought PotG in Bazarr for 700pp. There were 8 copies for sale, the highest being 1500pp.

Fairweather Pure

I'm so glad I dinged 60 a long time ago and got my buffage on the level. Now since the number of whiny clerics seem to be increasing I can just say to hell with them, loot my corpse and go about my business getting AA points.

I can count on one hand the number of times I've been rezed where I didn't have to pay 100PP.

Clerics have been pampered in every way shape and form. Can't raid so and so, only 1 cleric on. Let's give that item to the cleric so they'll be happy and keep raiding with us.

Nearly every cleric that left my guild left because they didn't get the loot they wanted.

Wake up, might be about time that class starts to earn it's pay.

Yes, I'm irritated. I'm irritated at the number of inane posts and "you should be nerfed" posts from clerics on this board. I had sympathy for the cleric class as I play one on raids for my guild and have an understanding of their needs.

Had mind you. Now I don't care. You want upgrades go get them but I no longer care.

Racmoor

Second edit.. HTML doesn't seem to be working well. Although it's going to be confusing, ill try this: bold is when im quoting someone bold italics is when im quoting myself within a quote of someone else.

Think Daanya Barney 2k1 missed the Cleric meeting... :( I even had free coffee and donuts.

Let me say this Daanya, 28th is the patch, this is the 22nd. Maybe you should discuss this on your Class Boards, VI does read the Boards.
And you think I don't post on other boards? I do here, eq clerics (they dont use eqboard, diff account name), and have submitted 3 comments to dev in the past 2 days alone.

I have sent, at a minimum, 3 dozen comments to the dev board about how to upgrade clerics. Not one has been answered.

Maybe because your comments sound like your post: Rude, arrogant, ignorant, bitter and completely one sided. You seem pretty incapable of seeing anything other than the words you type on your screen. Why do you bother reading, posting and replying to others? Do you like arguing with people over the internet? Does it add to your god complex?

All your points go down the drain when you toss in the whiney personal insults. Go home, smoke a little pot or something and relax. The end of the world is not coming if people don't agree with you.

No actually, I just let myself sink to the level of the person I'm responding to. When I'm told my spot in exp groups is unjustified, the druid is obviously unsympathetic to the cleric community, or just oblivious to the fact we barely get groups now.

And I'm sorry if I fly off the handle and throw insults, but when I read trash like, "3k isn't enough, we've sucked for 3 years and clerics need nothing in return," I can't help but stand dumbfounded at that.

Even if it is due to druids speaking up, i really dont know what this has to do with anything at all. Unless it is to scold us for saying anything..(and,as you call it a "whine fest" im assuming you do in fact take a negative opinion of this action). I find this quite strange considering in the same breath you mention that you have done some complaining yourself. Additionally a quick look at ANY class board and you will find a whole lot of "whining". Every class seems to have concerns.

Go to EQ Clerics. Rayne and Dalur lock whine threads before they get to 5 posts. They refuse to cater to petitions. Unfortunately, it takes things like petitions to get things done, but they unfortunately don't see that.

Lets not put the cart before the horse. Why dont we just wait and see what happens?

This is the bitter irony of it all. If shamans got a 2k heal that wasn't labeled as CH, and if clerics got their new trashy heals, do you have an inkling of how much uproar and whining would come from this board? And now that you are getting the best things first, you judge us for being dubious of our compensation.

Notice, posting over 3 dozen times on the dev board is commenting, while druids raise a whine fest in a single petition.

No, see, I send fairly reasonable comments, and always about different things. Things such as, clerics don't need anymore heals, clerics could use a self-invis.

The petition was a huge list of unrealistic wants. Some were ok, but healing based off % is a cleric's forte, you can get 3:1, even 4:1 heals, I won't mind, but getting this over 7:1 is ridiculous. You heal just dandy now, but want this too much to admit its imbalance.

Let's try this angle instead. You're friend is a semi-hardcore gamer who likes to play several hours a night and some on weekends. S/he likes to raid and wants to be valuable in most every high-end encounter. S/he wants to be awarded the best equipment and wants his/her epic to be a priority for the guild. S/he wants to be sought by high level guilds and never wear a LFG tag in the most desirable new zones in the game.

Let's see, how would you convince s/he to be a Druid?

Let's try THIS angle instead. Your friend wants to be a valuable asset on raids, wants to be part of high end content, wants a good epic, wants good items.. sure sounds alot more like a mage, enc, or shaman than a cleric. Guilds don't need to get their clerics anything. They just need them to be level 39. The rest, resists, hp, blah blah can work itself out.

The point the first poster was trying to make, was what is the incentive for a cleric anymore? Making a class that will have to drudge through 60 levels scrapping up exp where he can find it, only to sit in line for 14 months for the epic, then sit in the CH rotation? Is this what you want to pay $13 a month for?

For all the Clerics who laugh about not using fear, than cry about not being able to get groups or solo...

Figure out what in the heck your spells do. There are plenty of 60 Plus Necros and Sks that use the same fear spell you have, effectively in Solo AND Group situations. You have mem blur spells and stun spells and dd spells and undead spells. It seems many of you did not take the time to learn how to use many of them.

Senor, they also have snare. Fear is nothing without snare. SKs and Necros can also dish out about 5-10 times the damage we can per mana or second. And btw.. fear is not used in groups. Where do you get that from? And Atone doesn't work often, and when it does it does little. Why do you think that helps my class? I don't get aggro as is if I do my job right. And FOR THE LAST TIME, we DO NUKE.

Oh, and learn your own spells. Combining Regen, thorns, and NT is a perfectly good way to heal (thorns quickening the kill, thus less dmg is dealt). No it is not on par with CH. But regen/thorns/nt/dots/evac/snare/sow(where applicable)/debuff.. IS on par with ch.

Stop blaming the Druids because your class is not Versatile enough, I think 99.9999% of us agree with you.

If only that were true man. If only. At least 1/4 to 1/3 of your populus don't want any significant changes given to clerics. ("Sure give em invis and sow. That's enough")

It is time to stop blaming players for enhancements made to their class, if you have a problem with Clerics take it up with the people that can do something about it.

We have, many many times. Verant does not listen because of how crucial CH was for raids. They couldn't give us any non-healing ability that was even of marginal use on a raid or our supremacy there would grow even larger.

Today we formed a group in a zone that consisted of a warrior bard cleric rogue druid wizzy and had a aoe nuking fest.... the exp was not the greatest, but it was fun, and seeing the cleric jumping around with kei nuking everything that moved while I healed with kei..... how else to say it but the cleric was having fun.... with better healing, my friend the cleric will be able to have fun more often, and that makes me happy.

That's great that he and you had such a great time, but most people in this game don't want that. We want to have fun getting exp. Not having fun at the cost of it.

Imagine, if you will, Verant flagging some upper-end MOBs like the ones in VT, cursed creatures like Arch-Lich, the Cursed (duh), and cursed dragons like Zlandicar, and then having them make a CLERIC-ONLY spell, which would do high amounts of damage against creatures flagged as "cursed", or "demonic".

That's a neat concept, but the problem is against raid mobs we have to heal, there isn't time for nuking.

Now, if they flagged mobs on the difficulty level of sebilis frogs as "demonic," then we can get something done.

Adion, instead of making epic novels out of our replies, I'll keep my replies to you to the main concerns.

"getting in the nitty gritty"? Are you trying to sound funny instead of saying melee with my leafblower? If I see a druid meleeing in my group, they are no longer in my group. That's beyond retarded. You could get 10x the efficiency medding and nuking.

I'm saying that I don't spend half the fight sitting down scared of aggro.

And you should see my melee stats /smirk. 1hb 108 baby! 1hs 127 woo woo! Yeah I melee a ton

Not following what that reply meant. Are you meleeing or aren't you? If not, what is nitty gritty?

And I hardly cower away from aggro. If the group is stable, I often pull because I have extra mana. Last night I even had the honor of tanking a mob for the first minute of the fight because I pulled w/ a 1100 nuke and the frog seems particularly interested in my demise.

[] Cry me a river. Unless you suck, you can keep any group alive in virtually any circumstance at least 80% as well as me, and you can solo 15 times better than me. Yea you have it so rough, crybaby.

I'm sorry you can't maintain your monopoly on being the only class required for any raid and 90% of the XP groups of the appropriate level range. Oh lordy, maybe, just maybe, Clerics will have to do what most of the rest of the game is forced to do, in order to be desired. Be good at their class. Not be a loot hungry whore. Make friends.

I'm so terribly sorry that there is the slighest possibility that your special little cleric pedestal may be brought down just a tad so that you can't get your every whim in game.

Oh wait. That's right. That still will happen because you still have CH, better heals than any other priest class, and can rez.

Who's being a crybaby?[/b]

Hold on there cowboy. Clerics are required for perhaps the top 2-5% of the content. And we certainly aren't required for getting up to the boss, just on the boss itself.

You also need an enchanter. You don't go on SHM haste.
You also need a mage. Mod rods are what MAKE clr good on raids.
You also need a shaman. ENC slow does not cut it.
You also need a monk. MAYBE an sk to pull but it definately isn't as good.
You also need a bard. AE clarity and haste and resists are incredibly powerful.
You also need a warrior, at least on boss mobs. There isn't an alternative.
You also need as many rogues, rangers, and wizards as you can find. Their damage is almost uncomparable.
It helps to have a necro there or at least logged at zone for coffin CR.

That's 11 of the 14 classes. Only paladins, druids, and Beastlords remain. And all 3 have very useful functionality, albeit are not 100% necessary. Don't tell me CLR hold this supreme position of power.

90% of the exp groups? First of all, that would mean there were 10 zones, only 1 of which a cleric is not necessary. This is certainly not the case.

Very deep Ssra it might get hairy with a druid, but that's it my friend. CT, and any of the newbie spots like seb, velks, ae, etc are all just dandy with a druid. Stop feeling sorry for yourself and try it.

I am now a loot whore? In the past 3 months I have won from exp grouping: Silver Etched Warhammer (grats vendor), Talisman of the Cat (given out of pity), and my split of gems. I have lost on Fungi, 2 CSS, an RBG, SBC. Don't give me that.

Being good at my class. Tell me, besides buffing at the beginning, casting heals, burning excess mana on stuns / nukes, what do you want me to do. I will tell you why it's inefficient, but please, make a list for me.

Explain, why do you druids value rez so highly? I could not care less if it was given to druids. I have never once been grouped or invited to raid for that reason. Take it! People only die if someone screws up. I haven't had to cast rez in well over a month. And as to the value of CH vs the entire druid line up, I won't bother. It's been said so many times already.

Tell me, where does NT drop?

NT drops the same place DL does /smirk

That was the point.. it's vendor bought. Thanks for proving the point.

Um, there is no group without a slower. Not even clerics can keep up on unslowed mobs with unhasted tanks. Don't go on a tirade about that, please.

I wish I had read this statement earlier...it would have saved me much time. You obviously don't have much of a clue. You only group if you have an enchanter. You must have a slower to heal your tank. Next you will tell me your tank must be a warrior too, and you need to have a bard as well, or you will go lom after every pull.

Bards are not that effective in a group compared to rog, wiz, rng, mag, bst.. And I actually prefer pal/sk to warrior.

But about the enc thing. The following 2 statements you are making, paraphrased, contradict each other.

"I'm not a good enough healer. I can't keep up with the healing without lots of med time."
"I don't require an enchanter. Only sissies demand one."

If you are having trouble healing your group, stop coming here and making a petition, find an enc, group him, and you will heal fine.

Fear? Have you absolutely lost your mind? When is the last time you've seen ANYONE use fear? Don't post this BS please.

Last week. Me and a SK duoing in ME. Great XP because I didn't have to heal him and could nuke instead, which is much much more mana efficient for me. Again, you obviouly have been stuck in the same rut for a while now.

That is not a group. That is duo. Group = 5+ people. You don't fear in groups. I thought that was painfully obvious, didn't think I needed to distinguish group from duo. Oh well.

Sure if I have a slower and am XPing in a gimp zone like HS, Chardok, Seb, or Velks.

Or if you actually try in CT, Ssra, or wherever else you want. Go get yourself: 58+ ENC, 58+ war/sk/pal, yourself, 58+ rog, 58+ rog/rng/mag/wiz/bst/mnk, and a 6th. Go to CT. If I were in your position I'd be fom constantly. I've done it. Don't give me this.

False premise No.1: There is a set number of XP groups at any given time.

False Premise No. 2: Increasing Druid heals will make clerics have a harder time finding groups.

It simply will allow those groups that cannot find a cleric to continue hunting at almost the same difficulty as if they had a cleric. Sorry, your monopoly on non-gimp hunting zones may be broken. I have no sympathy. Go complain to Verant to hurry up and improve your diversity.

Ok listen. You are mad at me for demanding an ENC. Yet you seem to demand CLR. Explain. Also, did you even read what I said? The number of exp groups will NOT INCREASE as a result of this change. If people out there are too scared to group with a druid as a healer, TFB, it's their loss.

Guess what...when Verant gives you improvements, you won't see me over on the cleric board whining about your improvements.

What will there be to whine about?? You've got everything I've ever had expect rez and symbol. No one would take you seriously if you did.

We didn't whine. We laid out exactly what issues Druids faced. Verant saw them and agreed with many. Why? Because they were true.

Whatever you say sparky. Druids needed help to both their damage and snare abilities and their heal abilities. My goodness your class must have sucked big time! Guess all those druids just didn't catch on.

Sorry they haven't given you magical versatility powers (well more than you've already obtained from luclin) in a day.

?!?! Explain that luclin part. I sure hope you aren't referring to faithstones. Yippee I get to cast a 30 second port dropping me off on an unneeded continent at the feet of a KoS guild trainer and 4 vendors. YAHOO!

Your group consists of a Warrior, Enchanter, Paladin, Ranger, and Wizard. You need a healer, but the only person around is a Druid. You can now have a viable group because the Druid will have enough healing power to hold up the group up, and if someone dies, there's a Paladin to rez.

I can't believe what I'm reading. If you didn't have the skill to keep that group alive, nothing will save you.

But if you don't happen to have that Paladin, and instead have a Monk, that group will be looking for a Cleric to finish it off.

Haha, you really think rez matters? There is NO ZONE IN THIS GAME where this type of group is forming that does not have a cleric in it to rez. NONE. I only wish the above were true. I might actually GET GROUPS.

edit: strange things happening w/ quote tag sorry

"Necromancers get a 93% resurrection" at the cost of no exp death of another player, so who is going to loose 100% exp so someone else can gain back 93% (have to be level 45+ and less than 60 to be sacrificed). This is not a serious threat to your resurrection ability. Even buying the EE's from players that are leaving are not cheap, the cheapest I have seen them sell is 400pp each on my server although I have heard they go as cheap as 200pp on other servers. People do not invite Necros into there groups for there rez ability, in fact people do not invite Necros into there groups much at all...

Philomath

I've seen 4 copies of BAoTR drop in one 4 hour session in Ssra.

None of our clerics needed it still, however.

And PotC didn't take you 15 min and 750p.

The components alone cost more than that and take longer to gather.

Don't stretch the truth like that.

I'm sorry a few of you think we clerics have had it so good. We didnt ask for ch and for it to become what it has. I hate the fact that I'll log in hoping to xp a little and immediately get tells to come to the raid so we dont have to cancel it. I lose xp on raids (we die lots too). Loot is dkp, so I'm never offered any other incentive to raid. Stress is high, one little foul up and the raid may wipe (yes even mashing a ch button things can and do go wrong). I'm very happy druids will now get the pleasure of nodding off at the keyboard and being told you can't leave because theres no replacement. My guild raids are not mandatory, but just try and say you want to sit one out. You'll love raid guilt. Honestly, these changes are going to benefit both classes immensely. I'm looking forward to it going live.

Menleniel

Go to EQ Clerics. Rayne and Dalur lock whine threads before they get to 5 posts. They refuse to cater to petitions. Unfortunately, it takes things like petitions to get things done, but they unfortunately don't see that.

If your admins are not supportive of your attempts to get improvements to your class...perhaps A) They have a reason B) You should create your own Cleric board.

Either way, quit your goddamned whining, bitching, and harrassment on here.

Let's try THIS angle instead. Your friend wants to be a valuable asset on raids, wants to be part of high end content, wants a good epic, wants good items.. sure sounds alot more like a mage, enc, or shaman than a cleric. Guilds don't need to get their clerics anything. They just need them to be level 39. The rest, resists, hp, blah blah can work itself out.

Who are you trying to fool? We all are in guilds. We all know who gets the best loot first. We all know who gets entire guilds camping their epic mobs. We all know who gets whatever the @#%$ they want, to keep them happy.

Oh, and learn your own spells. Combining Regen, thorns, and NT is a perfectly good way to heal (thorns quickening the kill, thus less dmg is dealt). No it is not on par with CH. But regen/thorns/nt/dots/evac/snare/sow(where applicable)/debuff.. IS on par with ch.

Ok..I'm done.

You are obviouly a simpleton. Go away. If you think anything Druids have is even close for the single most powerful and game breaking spell in the game, you obviously are delusional.

Take your whiny @#%$ back to the Cleric boards and bitch on there about how now you won't be the one class in the game which the game MUST revolve around. We don't want to hear it here.

Make your own damned petition if you think that will fix your problems. This is not a @#%$ cleric board. This is a druid board.

Think she was referring to the spell, not the earring.

To do the spell quest, it's around 700-900 pp to do.

Daanya said:
The point the first poster was trying to make, was what is the incentive for a cleric anymore? Making a class that will have to drudge through 60 levels scrapping up exp where he can find it, only to sit in line for 14 months for the epic, then sit in the CH rotation? Is this what you want to pay $13 a month for?

I'm tempted to tell you the same thing you would tell a druid who complained about druid's lack of desireability ("go play another class"), but that wouldn't address your concerns, now would it?

However, I will tell you the same thing you've already been told here ad nauseum: the DRUID message board isn't the place to air your grievances about CLERIC issues.

Reading between the lines, but here go a few points.

Re: you don't want druids to get a 75% heal.
1. You're naive enough to list half a dozen abilities shared by several classes as a reason to hold one class back.
2. Your guild must not have any druids by whom you would benefit during raids if their class was improved.
3. Your belief that clerics must be "compensated" for any improvement to the druid class, is a pretty strong indicator that you are very accustomed to the entire game revolving around your class. God complex is bad enough in-game, even worse when a cleric player carries it outside the game to a druid discussion board.

Re: you say you haven't done a rez in over a month.
1. You must not make/have many friends.
2. Your guild must be terribly stagnant.

Honestly Daanya, you are a hateful and bitter PLAYER ... and that has nothing to do with being a bitter cleric.

~Firemynd

I don't mind other priests getting complete heal :D As long as it gets non INT casters off evocation I'm happy. Now go visit the Temple of Solusek Ro and switch to alteration.

You also need an enchanter. You don't go on SHM haste.
You also need a mage. Mod rods are what MAKE clr good on raids.
You also need a shaman. ENC slow does not cut it.
You also need a monk. MAYBE an sk to pull but it definately isn't as good.
You also need a bard. AE clarity and haste and resists are incredibly powerful.
You also need a warrior, at least on boss mobs. There isn't an alternative.

Without comment as to how off some of your comments might be, taking your perceptions here as truth, please make a line in the above light for Clerics on a typical raid, and I think the problem might suddenly come to light for you. In case you might miss it, the opperative word is "a".

Anyone read Rich Waters post yet regarding Cleric enhancements? Seems relevant to this thread:

[START QUOTE] Lately, we've been working up some changes to help balance out the cleric class. This is important to get done before Planes of Power, as it's the foundation for the growing role of priest classes in the future of EverQuest. The goals behind these changes are to:

Provide clerics with useful group and raid roles as other priests gain raid quality healing

Decrease the cleric's mandatory dependancy on grouping for any reasonable gain

Increase the level of variety and interest involved in playing a cleric
The first part of the change was to add the following spells:

Hammer of Judgement - CLR/56 (summon a hammer with a powerful and frequent proc effect)

Yaulp V - CLR/56 (self only melee and mana regen buff. Adds haste, dexterity, mana regen, and stamina regen)
These spells are useful in allowing the cleric to do a new form of combat damage. Clerics use the new Yaulp spell to gain melee haste, standing mana regeneration, and increased Dexterity. This helps out a great deal by allowing the cleric to use their new summoned hammer at peak efficiency.

The summoned hammer is a unique weapon in that it has a very high proc frequency, doing 75-150 damage per proc. This allows clerics to do reasonable melee style damage by relying on the procs alone. The cleric's pet "Unswerving Hammer of Faith" has had it's mana cost and casting time lowered, as well as it's effectiveness upgraded. The hammer pet cannot be riposted or effected by spells, though it is rapidly killed if no one is tanking for it. The hammer pet still poofs after each combat, but for the new price of 250 mana, it adds an amount of damage that's very competitive with other damage-over-time spells.

Using Yaulp + the Hammer of Judgement, the cleric begins to be effective in toe-to-toe combat. Other supporting spells available to the cleric are his low cost summoned pet, and the Mark of Retribution/Mark of Karn spells. Using a combination of these spells, along with the clerics excellent buffs give surprisingly good results. In testing, clerics have been effective soloing the entrance to Charasis and Chardok, grouping in a number of high end dungeons, and even making reasonable experience as a two-cleric duo in Cazic-Thule.

This upgrade allows clerics a new style of relatively effective soloing, as well as some excellent options to add value in groups. While this may not be sufficient to get clerics into groups by itself, it does add significant value and allows even multi-cleric groups to be profitable. Fairly extensive play-testing, both by game designers and clerics on test have proven these spells to be effective, and perhaps more importantly, very entertaining to use.

In addition to the added spells, we'll be trying out the Bash skill for Clerics, beginning at level 25. While this skill will cap out lower than their melee counterparts, clerics should still get a decent amount of value out of this addition. It adds a bit of damage as well as a free chance to stun opponents. This also works well with the recent improvements to shields on Test, that give a meaningful boost to armor class, in addition to a chance to block incoming blows.

The following heal spells were added to the cleric class:

Ethereal Elixir - CLR/60 (group version of the Celestial Elixir heal-over-time spell)

Ethereal Light - CLR/58 (upgraded version of Divine Light single target heal)

Ethereal Remedy - CLR/59 (upgraded version of Remedy single target heal)
These spells are not expected to add a great deal of power to clerics, as clerical healing is already more than sufficient. These spells are all minor but useful upgrades to existing clerical heals. The goal with these spells is to round out a cleric's healing versatility and allow them to tailor their memmed healing line-up to whatever adventuring situation they find themselves in. With this large selection of healing spells, clerics are able to fit various situations more efficiently than any other class.

It's important that clerics maintain their role as the premier healer of the game. Raid quality heals are being added for other priests to allow them to fulfill their role as secondary healers in most situations. Clerics have always been a healing specialist, but the situation has escalated such that many raid level encounters may not be undertaken without disproportionally large numbers of clerics. No other class has been able to fill in if a cleric is absent, and healing is too important of a role to allow one class to dominate it so completely. After these changes are complete, clerics will still be the very best of healers but other priests class are able to substitute to some degree.

Clerics are going to receive additional changes so that they have some abilities that makes them more sought after for grouping. The final ability choices will be made after this first set of changes is evaluated and tested more extensively. It's very important that clerics have an ability that makes other players say "I really want to invite a cleric because they can do X, and that will be really helpful." This is vital to the health of the class. All priests should offer a similar level of value in solo, group, and raid situations, and they won't be considered balanced until this is true.

We understand that there's a lot of trepidation at major changes, and fears that your class will become less valuable in the game. When the changes are finished, I think most people will be pleased and will feel that their concerns have been listened to and addressed. The health of all classes in the game is as important to the dev team as it is to the many people who've spoken up passionately about their concerns here on this board.

Thanks for your patience,

Rich Waters
Lead Designer, EverQuest
Sony Online Entertainment

It is always helpfull to have the Gnomes chime in, I am sure this can be put to bed now.

Gnomes > * > Asslings

Bards are not that effective in a group compared to rog, wiz, rng, mag, bst.. And I actually prefer pal/sk to warrior.


Fear? Have you absolutely lost your mind? When is the last time you've seen ANYONE use fear? Don't post this BS please.


You know, the number of people who will sit on their arse in a cookie cutter, no-risk group and then complain about being bored just astounds me.


Have you ever been outside Karnors castle? I've fear-kited in full groups all over the dang place. Bard + SK + druid + rogue in Akheva halls means other groups better hunt somewhere else, because we are emptying every hall off the pillar room and pulling the traps for fun.

As for bards not being effective in groups, kick the mana-bitch, one-song wonder out of your group and get a decent bard. You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.


Time to go for a walk. Uninformed opisions stated as fact make my blood boil.

Aidon has been saying a lot about clerics monopolizing exp groups and raids over druids.... however, this is how it should be.

Clerics sacrificed their ability to solo, which druids are still one of the best classes at, in order to be in high demand for groups. I see NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER with clerics being REQUIRED for raids. Oh, and if you think clerics are the only class required, you must be dreaming (points to shamans).

Druids should never be prefered over a cleric for an exp group, however, by presenting druids with this new heal spell, which is ample enough for grouping, Verant is doing exactly that. Now, there is absolutely no need for a cleric to be wanted in an exp group. Druids have DoTs, better nukes, snare, root, and more exp-group orientated buffs (regen, DS). And don't bring up the whole rezz thing, it is sooooo easy to just ask a cleric in the same zone or a guildie cleric to come and rezz you that it is no longer necessary to be in a group with a cleric to minimized exp loss upon death.

Clerics ARE the dominant grouping class, they WERE the dominant grouping class, and they SHOULD BE the dominant grouping class. As I said before, give druids another form of a major heal (preferably a heal over time, akin to Torpor), or limit the druid spell so that it can only heal up to 75% of the persons hp, instead of healing 75% of their max hp.

For those that didn't understand that:

Current druid CH:
tank: 3k hp
druid spell will heal 2250 hp

My druid CH:
tank: 3k hp
druid spell can only heal up to 2250 hp, if the tank currently has more hp, the CH will do nothing

if the tank currently has 2k out of their 3k max, the druid CH will heal 250 hp, bringing them to 2250

Druid SHOULD NOT be getting a CH in the sense that clerics have it.

Druids should NEVER be prefered over a cleric in a healing situation within an exp group, NEVER.

Druids should NEVER be prefered over a cleric in a healing situation within an exp group, NEVER.

Preferred? No

Acceptable replacement? Yes

Druid SHOULD NOT be getting a CH in the sense that clerics have it.

Druids should NEVER be prefered over a cleric in a healing situation within an exp group, NEVER.

You're putting words in a lot of druids' mouths. We've never asserted druids should be preferred over clerics in a "healing situation" -- what many have said is that we don't feel 90% or more of the player base should be utterly restricted to lesser content when a cleric isn't available.

We've also pointed out that no other class but cleric is needed in sufficient volume just to raid higher level content. It's funny to watch cleric players shoot themselves in the foot by pointing out the necessity of "at least one" <fill in other class name> for raids, in trying to prove that they aren't the only required class. They fail to acknowledge that "at least three/four/five+" <clerics> are needed for those same encounters that only need "one" of any other class, and "none" of a few others.

Clerics haven't lost their status in raids, but guilds will finally be able to occasionally make do when cleric05 doesn't feel like playing. Hence, cleric05 doesn't have to play when they're not up to it, and cleric05 doesn't have to feel as though he/she is letting the entire guild down just to take a few days off.

As for grouping, Verant is working on increasing cleric desirability for both soloing and grouping. They might not be giving clerics exactly what they asked for, but they're not done yet, either.

~Firemynd

Aidon has been saying a lot about clerics monopolizing exp groups and raids over druids.... however, this is how it should be.

Wrong.
"All priests should offer a similar level of value in solo, group, and raid situations, and they won't be considered balanced until this is true." Rich Waters

I see NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER with clerics being REQUIRED for raids. Oh, and if you think clerics are the only class required, you must be dreaming (points to shamans).

Shaman slow is 75%. Enchanter slow is 70%. No single class should be able to make and break every raiding type encounter in the game.
"Clerics have always been a healing specialist, but the situation has escalated such that many raid level encounters may not be undertaken without disproportionally large numbers of clerics." Rich Waters

Now, there is absolutely no need for a cleric to be wanted in an exp group. Druids have DoTs, better nukes, snare, root, and more exp-group orientated buffs (regen, DS).

If I were to dot, nuke, debuff, snare, and heal to my potential, I would die a fast, messy death in a hard zone, or be wasting mana in an easy zone. Clerics will still be desired for experience groups, they just won't be required.
"After these changes are complete, clerics will still be the very best of healers but other priests class are able to substitute to some degree." Rich Waters

Clerics ARE the dominant grouping class, they WERE the dominant grouping class, and they SHOULD BE the dominant grouping class.

Wrong again.
"No other class has been able to fill in if a cleric is absent, and healing is too important of a role to allow one class to dominate it so completely." Rich Waters

Druids should NEVER be prefered over a cleric in a healing situation within an exp group, NEVER.

/sigh See sig.

Yada...yada..yada...I think ANY improvement to our healing capablilities is a step in the right direction. We asked for it ..now they listened .Be happy!

-Meechee
55 Preserver
Emarr

"Clerics sacrificed their ability to solo, which druids are still one of the best classes at, in order to be in high demand for groups. I see NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER with clerics being REQUIRED for raids. Oh, and if you think clerics are the only class required, you must be dreaming (points to shamans)."

Why are you whining about that when their trying to improve your soloing capabilities? You really think one class should be required for 40+ people to enjoy themself just because you want to be special? Thats rather selfish. Shamans can be replaced by Enchanters, and its been done. Nobody can replace Cleric CH's currently, and i'm sure most guilds could give you instances where they couldnt raid because a Cleric had to cancel. Do you even raid? Because you should know this already. Kinda funny how many other clerics are happy to give away some of the pressure they felt by their guild to go to every raid and stay to the end.
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"Druids should never be prefered over a cleric for an exp group, however, by presenting druids with this new heal spell, which is ample enough for grouping, Verant is doing exactly that. Now, there is absolutely no need for a cleric to be wanted in an exp group. Druids have DoTs, better nukes, snare, root, and more exp-group orientated buffs (regen, DS). And don't bring up the whole rezz thing, it is sooooo easy to just ask a cleric in the same zone or a guildie cleric to come and rezz you that it is no longer necessary to be in a group with a cleric to minimized exp loss upon death."

You mean a Druid should never be prefered over a Cleric when it comes to ability to heal a group, and they arent. I dont know if you do pickup groups or not, and if you dont then you dont have a clue about who gets picked first. I do them often, and i know for a fact the Cleric gets picked over the Druid everytime to fill the healer role. In fact many groups dont trust a Druid to capably heal their group, most tend to feel alot more comfortable with a Cleric healing them. They feel secure that if anybody screws up and dies, its a guaranteed ress right away.

Regardless, i think it should be the first person to get there should be included in the group. Its stupid that you have people that sit at zoneline for hours LFG, then some Cleric walks in and gets picked up right away. ITs not only stupid, its lame and spoils the hell out of you, and now look at yourself. You expect to be picked before anybody else in exp groups, and you expect events that 40+ people showed up to to revolve around you. I mean how spoiled are you?
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"Clerics ARE the dominant grouping class, they WERE the dominant grouping class, and they SHOULD BE the dominant grouping class. As I said before, give druids another form of a major heal (preferably a heal over time, akin to Torpor), or limit the druid spell so that it can only heal up to 75% of the persons hp, instead of healing 75% of their max hp."

Well, guess what? EQ is not going to revolve around Clerics nearly as much as it did in the near future. Your going to have to grow up at some point and realize your not going to have the attention you once had. Its like a Child, when hes young he gets spoiled and turns into a brat. Sooner or later he'll grow up and realize hes not the center of the world, and come to a rude awakening that he needs to respect the other people around him. Quit your cleric if you want to, because the changes are coming to make you less essential for everything, while allowing you to solo better and not have to press one button all of the time. Clerics with your mentality might as well quit now, because your obviously too into yourself to realize the good it does for everyone else.

Kicer, go read Jahaar's comments to enlighten yourself for a change, and try thinking outside the damn tired box.

You just spent your breath saying clerics should be preferred over druids in xp groups yada yada yada. /yawn

Let me clue you in on something.

Balance means what?

Consistency over time.

Not a high power curve in the beginning and a low one at the end.

I think clerics should be good soloers and get some utility spells to put them out of their misery. I know my cleric would enjoy it.

If Jahaar's team can pull it off, more power to them and to all of us with nipple tassles and all. You, however, have got to stop being overprotective of your old ways.

Let's try this angle instead. You're friend is a semi-hardcore gamer who likes to play several hours a night and some on weekends. S/he likes to raid and wants to be valuable in most every high-end encounter. S/he wants to be awarded the best equipment and wants his/her epic to be a priority for the guild. S/he wants to be sought by high level guilds and never wear a LFG tag in the most desirable new zones in the game.

Let's see, how would you convince s/he to be a Druid?

Primero
Druid

My scenario is true for for vast majority of EQ players, while yours is only true for the minority like yourself and myself that are into the game enough to read 20 page flamefests. Which do you think Verant should pay attention to?

Clerics awarded best equipment? Please. No wis casters are awarded the best equipment first. For clerics, good plate items go to melees first, and wis/mana equipment goes to all 3 priest classes. Maybe it's time to junk your corrupt loot council if you experience otherwise?

Epic priority: what does it matter if druid epics are not a "priority" for your guild? You can get one with 2 groups of friends, in your spare time. You have a dozen friends, don't you? ;)

Anyway, this is all on test, so I'm just going to wait and see. Good day to you all. Have to be honest and say if I never see another blank-eyed halfling face signature pic, it will be too soon ;) .

Think she was referring to the spell, not the earring.

To do the spell quest, it's around 700-900 pp to do.

Ah..I sometimes forget they put in the spell w/o the earring. Did mine before that patch.

Don't make me moonfire your gnome a$$ Smarty.

Current druid CH:
tank: 3k hp
druid spell will heal 2250 hp

My druid CH:
tank: 3k hp
druid spell can only heal up to 2250 hp, if the tank currently has more hp, the CH will do nothing

if the tank currently has 2k out of their 3k max, the druid CH will heal 250 hp, bringing them to 2250

Ok..wakeup call. If I have a cleric in my group, I have over 3khp. The druid has more HP than you are attributing to a tank. The tanks in my XP groups have 5500-7000 HP depending on buffs.

Druids should NEVER be prefered over a cleric in a healing situation within an exp group, NEVER.

First off all: Kiss my Druid @#%$.

Secondly: Clerics will still be prefered over Druids. Druids will simply now be a viable substitution in many situations if you cannot find a cleric or a sufficient number of clerics.

My scenario is true for for vast majority of EQ players, while yours is only true for the minority like yourself

Try again. The number of 55+ players in EQ grows on a daily basis.


Have to be honest and say if I never see another blank-eyed halfling face signature pic, it will be too soon

Then feel free to get the hell out of my home =)

All level 55+ = raid-oriented players?

I don't think so.

Go back to your timesinks/carrot-on-a-stick.

All level 55+ = raid-oriented players?

I don't think so.

Go back to your timesinks/carrot-on-a-stick.

All? no. Many, yes. A majority, probably. Heck, if I rember right, raiding usually starts in the mid fourties with Vox, Naggy, and the planes and just ramps up from there.

/start munching Gnome-shaped cookies

/wants for a Druid to light up a moonfire so his marshmellows can start roasting...

Who are you trying to fool? We all are in guilds. We all know who gets the best loot first. We all know who gets entire guilds camping their epic mobs. We all know who gets whatever the @#%$ they want, to keep them happy.


Or my favorite:

Cleric_01 says I'm bored, tired of raiding, not getting enough loot so going to quit the guild. Guild leaders and the guild has a whole goes fricken nuts, gives the cleric what ever s/he wants and OH bow to the cleric BOW, bow to him/her BOW. Omg can't have a cleric quit. kiss kiss.

Druid_01 says I'm bored, tired of raiding and sick of the clerics getting all the loot. Guild says ok bye bye don't need ya anyway. /wave

It's been this way since the beginning of EQ. Old time clerics are so used to be treated like gods they really make me sick sometimes.

It's about time druids got something worth bringing them to raids for. Now the question is this 75% heal worth bringing a druid to a raid for? Personally I feel dot stacking might be more of a boon then anything I've seen so far.
The same issues exists with other classes too. Look at enchanters! OMG, what is it with enchanters. The very enchanter class seems to draw the most mentally unstable people. They freak out at the smallest things. /shrug If they wish to leave the guild the entire guild goes nuts.

Anyway, I'm very happy I was made an officer in my guild so long ago now. If for no other reason that I can treat every single member FAIRLY reguardless of class. So when I get a druid and a cleric in on the same loot there is no automatic switch in my mind that says, "oh gotta keep the cleric happy, grats them default." No fricken way. It's play time, attitude, who needs a better upgrade etc. Clerics sometimes screw themselves here on attitude. They fall back into the self-rightousness that they get everything because they're a cleric Sucks to have to tell them, grats you loosing loot for suck @#%$ attitude. *puts cleric on ignore after loosing Burrower Tunic to a druid who has 10x more play time then most the clerics combined* Not to mention said cleric having won 4 BP's since the druids last win 7 months ago =/. Anybody else get this crap in their guild too? Rather sick of it myself.

Anyway. I'm tired of this discussion now. It's become more of a clerics don't want to be unseated from their god position vs druids who really just want to be viable on raids. It really sucks that people feel they need to come to the druid message board and tell us that we have no place at raids and we don't need changes. Every time I hear that I think ya, you just don't want you god positions threatened at raids. Every valid discussion gets debunked by twisting each others worthless class abilities into reason that can't have something. ie Clerics fear. Fear does a cleric no good at all without the ability to snare. IMO want to make a cleric be good at soloing? Give them snare. BOOM DONE. They can now fear kite. Match a cleric and a snaring class up and you've got a good duo for fear kiting. Clerics are never going to solo with fear alone. Fear is a soloing tactic, so that cleric that keeps saying, "oh I'll try fear in groups"... oh go get bent please. You know damn well no one was saying use fear in group. Of course clerics turn around and say druids can gate or some crap. So WHAT. Gating ability doesn't get me XP, doesn't get me a group (really stop kidding yourself here), gating only gets my hundreds of begging tells for me to be a taxi.

BTW I surely hope Verant does the same thing I do with druids, clerics or any class for that matter that says things like, "go back to quadding and leave the real classes to do raids". 2 things I do with that. #1 STFU, #2 ignore. I pay to play Everquest, I pay the same as everybody else who plays Everquest. I want to raid and be treated fairly and have fun equally with everybody else who plays Everquest. I've personally succeeded at doing this. Through friends and playing as best I can and really keeping myself to what's fun in EQ, I've been lucky enough to become a member and an officer of a very kick butt, Emperor Killing and VT raiding guild. But I'm 1 druid out many and I get tells every night from other druids wondering how in the world they are going to be able to join a good guild and do raids too. At this point in time, I really have no answer for them. That I think is something clerics in particular forget when they are bashing Druids. They forget we are people playing the game the same as them, we are people wanting to raid the same as them and it really sucks to watch clerics go level from 1 to 60 in record time and instantly get invited to a guild, get their epic, and have new armor equipted before your average druid quads enough mobs to go solo some meager armor from Umbral. This ISN'T balanced. DUH. I think finally Verant sees this as a problem and hopefully does bring druids to a reasonable desirability that clerics have enjoyed for 3 years.

Daanya Barney 2k1 said: I can't believe what I'm reading. If you didn't have the skill to keep that group alive, nothing will save you.
I invite you to try the following for a week in different dungeons doing pickups only and see where you can keep your groups going decently. Now, to put you in my position healing-wise, you need to make certain adjustments.
No Aego, no symbols, no ac buffs, no group heals, no HoT, no CH and no self ac/hp/mana regen buff. I'm still 57, so no divine light either.

In other words, you can HB, you can remedy and you can SH. Good Luck. if you want to do 60 druid instead, add divine light and self buff for the mana regen, but then you are missing out on the great 55-59 levels.

When you have done this, you can come back and bitch about how well druids heal allready and don't need an upgrade.

Pet gnome likes frozen marshmellow?

The complete problem isnt that these spells are unbalancing on raids, they arent. The problem is they severely tilt balance in many zones when it comes it grouping. Please do not attempt to tell me that Druids dont do adequate jobs at healing in most of the exp grind zones all across Norrath and in the cases of extremely well equipped parties, places like Cazic Thule and Ssra.

Places like Fungus Grove, Sebillis, Velketors Labryinth, Chardok, and Karnors simply dont require the amount of healing a cleric brings to a party and in many cases is a drag on exp due to the lack of overall DPS inherent in their defensive role. With a slower, be it bard, shaman, enchnater, or heck procced from a weapon, the healing per mob continues to dwindle.

Druids enjoy a wide ranging series of abilities that make them able to do many things and do them well. Damage shields, mana- effecient nukes, DoTs, regen (which is often discounted but is DAMN effecient overall), tranportation to hunting (SoW, ports, invis, tracking), good buffs that can further add to the groups DPS through mana regen with PotG, free damage from fairly accessible clickables (not to mention RotG on BPs), and now more than adequate healing for just about every zone ingame.

Clerics are coming to this board with their concerns because many feel that this board had a huge part in addressing Druid concerns and effecting many of the changes we see happening now. In short this is a Druid Advocacy site more than anything else. The majority of us are not whiners, we dont see how this is balanced.

Cleric Utility is less limited than that of a warrior. Cleric offense is not mana-effecient nor is it at all versatile. No, the cleric excels in defensive capabilities; heals and buffs and in some ways even our offense is defensive in the way of stuns and roots. We make damage disappear we have limited resources to do damage. In addition we are almost totally group reliant unless you consider using a full mana bar on a single blue to be an efficient way to get exp (again this goes back to offensive output).

One of the druid posters at this site called the proposed new changes a complete change in how druids will raid. Clerics need to see the same thing in how they group or the balance part of the equation simply doesnt hold true. For myself, I dont know how it will be accomplished due to how easily both Shaman and Druids solo and make solid contributions to groups and will now have solid roles in raids as well. Cleric damage capabilities and utility will need to see a complete overhaul from start to finish to have the proper impact because they lag now, before any defensive changes are done to Druids.

Im at a quandry. I see how Druids needed some improvement for raid healing, but like many others I didnt see how it could be done without sacrificing Clerical roles in groups unless the healing upgrade was limited in scope. I dont expect to have a lock on groups nor do I expect to have a lock on raids. I DO expect to be needed for both because they are my viable options as a cleric. Problem is healing stacks in raids because so much of it is needed. It isnt needed for grouping.

I suppose many druids will find my post to be stupid, self-centered, insert_random_insult_here but, for the most part we are concerned that our role is not just being shifted but being supplanted and relegated into even less need. Clerics are posting here expecting to find reasoned argument in a lot of cases not the "take it and like it" attitude some are getting. We give a damn about our class the same way you give a damn about yours. Every single class in EQ is linked together and the priests are linked even closer in some respects than the other groupings due to how needed the 3 priest classes are to accomplish anything of note in the game. Posting here isnt coming to the board to whine, its voicing our concerns to a community that seems to get the spotlight one HELL of a lot more than Clerics ever seem to. Please note the last time Priest balancing was done Natures Touch and Chloroblast were rolled out and Mark of Karn was nerfed into the ground. We've got good reason to be skeptical of Verant given their track record with us.


Belkram Marrwolf, husband of Satrah Marrwolf (yep married to a druid Redwolf + Marrwrath = Marrwolf)

Ok, I haven't had a chance yet to read the last page or so.

For all those clerics that think our healing is perfectly fine, try using divine light all the time and no other spell. Granted NT and DL aren't exactly the same, but they are pretty close.

DL- 955 hps healed for 350 mana at 4.5 seconds
NT- 978 hps healed for 400 mana at 5.5 seconds

I'm not saying there are groups that I can't heal for, because there are. However, we are talking about strictly SAFE camps. If there is a bad pull and the tank takes a lot of damage, it takes a lot of mana to heal them back up. The effectiveness of druid heals are situational. A slower is essential! Without a slower, 1k heals become very inefficient when casting 3 or 4 a fight.

I agree that clerics need something to spice their role up a bit. Not because they won't be able to get groups, but because they are so bored sitting on their butts between heals. I think that's why they are hard to find, why they burn out on raids, etc. The job is boring! So, I hope they get more fun stuff to do.

Trevize, what guild is this that treats their clerics like gods?
I'll put in an application today.

Menleniel

Belk that was actually a very well worded and thought out post. I think you will find most intelligent druids who think with their cabbages will see your post as a good one. I think many druids do understand the boat clerics are in. We are encroaching on a territory that was largely theirs for a long time.
From what I've read that Rich has posted on the matter though I believe that he is an intelligent man who will figure out how to help both classes.

Anyway, this is all on test, so I'm just going to wait and see. Good day to you all. Have to be honest and say if I never see another blank-eyed halfling face signature pic, it will be too soon .
"YAY! Mommy, mommy, the Bad Cleric is going away!"

All level 55+ = raid-oriented players?

I don't think so.

Go back to your timesinks/carrot-on-a-stick.
Now WAIT a second. You said.....

*ponder*

*decides to indulge Lyria's Halfling Sig Fetish*
l
l
V
http://sun.he.net/~justin1/eq/sig1.jpg
Magelo Profile (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=202599)

Menleniel : Sorry I'm being an extremist to get attention =D. But I think the points are valid ones.

Belkram : That's the BEST post I've read yet. Discussing these balance issues in the well thought out manner of your post should be applauded.

I've done one rebuttal for the druid whose sideburns and hair don't match, and I'll do just one for you, too:

I'm an enchanter, you @#%$.

Feel free to take that Wellington boot you're holding and...never mind.

"I suppose many druids will find my post to be stupid, self-centered..."

Nope, not at all.

My one and only concern about hte spell as implemented is that the heal cap negates what was one of the core values of % based healing -- it scales up as Player hp totals scale up.

While this is not going to be a huge consideration for most, and the ratio at the capped heal is still pretty solid, it is a little hard to guess what this will mean when PoP comes out since one of the big, big questions is yet to be answered by Verant - will there be extra levels?

If there are again new levels, say even to 65, the hp totals on players will again be rising quite a bit. If it goes as high as some have said (75 but I just don't believe it), that is a tremendous increase in HP totals. A capped 2950 heal if say a ranger's hp total is at 7000 is suddenly less than 50%.

I suppose we might read into this that there would be no new levels, but until we know for sure I don't know how I feel about the healing cap.

I can't believe you people made me read a 24pg thread in addition to that 12+ one in the General forum. :P

Same as with that thread, this one is probably cross-posted by now. Keep it civil and the thread will stay open. It turns into a flamefest and it will be banished to Rants or closed entirely.

Hehe notice I don't even mention the cleric flaming. Why? Because it is not surprising they are upset, but it doesn't make it any more valid for them to be the only healers that matter in the game.

I do hope VI implements some of the nice stuff they have in mind for clerics. I really want all classes to feel valuable. But hell, I play a druid, and feeling left out is something I know far more intimately than any cleric ever will.

Clerics in my guild are pleased about this potential change (bless em : ) ). THey know it means that they can concentrate more on the CH rot and our guild as a whole will be more capable of doing things, and they may just be less urgently harrassed to be on 24/7 so we can raid. This is good for most guilds in the game...we will be having a lot more fun.

I agree with the other Druids, your post was fine Belkram. Read the other posts from some of your Cleric pals, and compare them to yours. Then you might see why some Druids reacted the way they have. Or why Druids are telling them to take it to their own board, because all they want to talk about is nerfing Druids. I think we're pretty reasonable here, especially if somebody doesnt bring all that Druid-hate to thsi board with them.

I do disagree on your perspective of Druid healing. Many of us cant effectively heal deep in many of those places when pulls are nonstop. Sure, Velks and the entrance mobs of most places are a joke, but tanks can solo those mobs. I like the suggestion that i just read, use only Divine Light in every healing situation you have, and telll me how effective you are. Thats basically our best heal, and you can see for yourself how well our healing capabilities currently are, they suck mana out of us fast. Dont buy into the theory that Druids can capably heal in any exp spot because they cant. Some Druids will tell you they can anywhere, but i think many of us will say we're ok as long as the mobs stay slowed. One thing i should add is when we're really focusing on healing, we're not doing much else other than keeping buffs up. Despite all the things you pointed out we can do.

Anyways, alot of us are sympathetic to Clerics. Many of us support the fact that you need upgrading, and i do believe the changes i've read so far are a nice start. Its just lame when yoru class comes here talking about nerfing us, complaining about their class problems, and saying how they "EXPECT/DESERVE to be required in groups and raids". When most other classes are just happy to even be considered for those scenarios.

I don't really know where VI pulled these numbers .. 75% and or 2900ish which ever is lower ...

I would have broken them up into two seperate spells ...

one doing roughly 2900ish

and another scale spells that does mayb 50% of a cleric's at roughly the same casting time .. mayb 1.5 times more mana ...

just throwing up some new numbers to think about heh


And in reality I'm tired at wading through other classes commenting on whether druids need this or need this not ... It's like me commenting on Warrior ... they mitigate dmg fine .. they are not broken .. when I don't play a warrior or any other melees and have any idea how they work relatively or even how a warrior will see things .. etc (just a figurative example on perception I guess) ... and I am ranting :P

Quote:

Dont buy into the theory that Druids can capably heal in any exp spot because they cant. Some Druids will tell you they can anywhere, but i think many of us will say we're ok as long as the mobs stay slowed. One thing i should add is when we're really focusing on healing, we're not doing much else other than keeping buffs up. Despite all the things you pointed out we can do.

Not to throw stones within the community, but it is almost always nuking druids who say they never heal that are saying they can heal anywhere.

I have tried it a lot again lately, and my mana inefficiency makes me just the suck at healing anywhere I might want to go for exp. Without a slower it is hopeless, with a slower it is ok but then the slower is usually a shaman and would not need me anyway.

On two ocassions recently I tried to play cleric for a gruop. Once for a group of 4 working through the hole (was a mess one ranger died on a messy pull). Another duoing with a bard in FG on lotuses. It was ridiculously slow going and I saw once again that I really can't heal very well in a gorup as it stands today. I did have one better exp in Gang in Seb, with a second druid also healing. But again, we had a chanter there to crowd control and slow.

On Bekram's post my only comment is that Bekram, as it stands now, a druid that is playing healer in a group is not in fact doing anything else. We just don't have the mana or mana efficiency to do so. With this spell it is more likely that we will be able to toss the ocassional nuke, but then the clerics can too...with the same risk (ie do you want your healer, and in the druids case healer and evacer, drawing extra agro). It is somewhat a myth that we are adding a lot of other things to a group while we heal. Our buffs are less desireable than cleric buffs, and while we may DS, we are generally not nuking if we are healing.

I don't think that this spell will change things that much. The VERY LAST thing you would want to have happen is for your druid to die if they are playing cleric...no evac, no healing for anyone else, and unless there is a pally or necro in the group, no rez to fix the problem...

And of course this is a druid advocacy site...it is a druid board. That does not mean that clerics should not get new and interesting abillities...just that the cleric boards are a more appropriate location to be discussing them. Indeed, VI has already posted some interesting changes they are looking at on the cleric boards, haven't they?

Wow Talyena. You completely owned with those Rich Waters quotes. Rich is my new hero! Looks to me like he's going to put Druids and Clerics and eeevvvverrrryybody else in their place. I sincerely hope that Clerics are going to like their "place" as much as I'm going to like mine.

Wyte Pyscnosis <Ordo Malleus>
60 Dooid - Rallos Zek

I suppose many druids will find my post to be stupid, self-centered, insert_random_insult_here

absolutely not. in fact, i wish more people who are questioning the effects of the current changes could post their ideas in a non-flaming way such as this.

/applaud

Kileren
<Frayed Knot>
The Rathe

I have no problem with druids getting the upgrade to healing. I have a 49 druid myself. But playing a cleric as primary and leveling both up, I can tell you druids have a definite advantage. There is no soloing for clerics. period. So unless you have friends to group with you get no exp. I can log on my druid at any time and go solo for exp. I would like to see her get better healing and my cleric get better soloing skills.

For example it is easy for her to get to crystal caverns or anywhere. She has invis, levitate and Sow. My cleric cant even get in thru fort without getting pounded.

Clerics need to have invis, snare, lev and SOW. that would be equal to druids getting 75% heal. Druids have improved camo so invis is 75% of that. Druid SOW could be faster, and Druids have ensnare which is better than snare. Clerics should also get a limited port. Say to any city with a Temple.

Try playing a cleric sometime. Yes we have the advantage of being required in a raid--we pay for that by having 0% solo ability. It is a balance. So long as druids dont mind clerics getting the druids same advantages to soloing, then druids should get more group skills.

It would not be fair for druids to request all the cleric abilities and then deny the clerics access to the druids abilities. Complete Heal is one of the defining abilities of a cleric. Druids are less able to heal than a cleric but have evac, ports, SOW, damage shields, invis, levitate, enduring breath.

Since I play both I would love to have my druid be more requested on raids, but I would also love to be able to do anything but raids with my cleric (ie solo, small exp groups)

Trust me druids are no weaker as a class than clerics. They both just have strengths in different areas. With balance that would mean either druids sacrifice str in other areas (ie no quad kiting or losing some port ability, invis etc) or clerics getting stronger in those areas and therefore infringing upon areas druids have typically thought of as theirs.

It would not be fair for druids to request all the cleric abilities and then deny the clerics access to the druids abilities. Complete Heal is one of the defining abilities of a cleric. Druids are less able to heal than a cleric but have evac, ports, SOW, damage shields, invis, levitate, enduring breath.
We never requested all the cleric abilities. Where did you get that from?

Second, to answer your question, I have played one, and clerics need more versatility. But to say they have zero soloing ability is not true. Less group-dependent does NOT mean soloing in all cases, especially if you can duo.

And don't bring those utility spells into it. Clerics should get some utility spells. No one disagrees with basic utility and convenience. As for a home gate, you know, there are faithstones. My cleric doesn't even have one yet, and I don't want him to have the porting ability of druids.

I'd like to see clerics get invis, EB, and lev. pretty much every other caster does, they should too.

that druids and shamans will represent viable main healers in most XP groups. Clerics will be required for the toughest XP zones. This is a fact, and clerics and druids alike need to get used to it.

I've seen disgraceful posts from hysterical clerics who don't like this and want their problems to be the druids' fault. I apologize on behalf of my entire class for these.

I've seen disgraceful posts from druids who love it and want to rub the clerical noses deep in the dust. I sneer at these druids and expose my private parts to their auntie.

Look, this is a process of balancing and we can hope that at the end of it all, the various priest casters will actually be balanced. No one class should outshine the others. That's in everyone's best interests, because if balance is achieved, we can realistically hope that there won't be any nerfs.

If balance is not achieved at this point, nerfs will follow in the future. Do I have your attention ?

Clerics do need some compensatory abilities. I say `compensation` and I've chosen the word carefully... clerics have had to put up with all sorts of BS for a very long time because we had unique access to Complete Healing. For example, up until recently we couldn't solo a low green in under 10 minutes and we couldn't cross a zone without a very expensive clickie or a backpack full of potions. I suspect that those of you who don't play clerics have no idea how difficult it was for a cleric to travel from place to place.

(`Faithstones`, I hear the bitter druids cry. Breaking news:- Sometimes we want to go somewhere which isn't our home temple; and a good cleric stays bound reasonably near the group, because if your corpse is in the Plane of Mischief and your cleric is in Katta Castellum, you have a problem which will take quite a while to solve. Therefore Gate only takes you near where you last grouped, most of the time. Clerics have marginally more travel options than a solo warrior.)

Those paltry compensatory abilities which we have received are in the form of melee damage upgrades. I say `upgrades` but there is no way that a meleeing cleric will add the same amount of damage to the group which a druid or shaman can. A cleric can now solo a low blue for XP and pretend that they're addition some value to the group through melee... this is pretty yawnworthy.

I think it's likely, with heals of this size, that druids will find that they can keep an xp group healed and have mana to spare. A lot of my CH's in XP groups won't exceed 3k hp, and I'm already doing MoR and MoK on a lot of mobs plus nuking away a lot of my mana too.

Now, the thing is that outside the healing role, druids offer the group a lot more than clerics do. The druid DS is way better (hits for more, lasts for longer, doesn't get resisted, is on for the duration of the fight); druids provide snare (the best cleric snare option is a clickie clinging darkness which is unique to dark elf clerics - cast time 6 seconds, duration 36 seconds, slows monster movement speed by 10%); you have extremely efficient regen spells which have a large cumulative effect; you have evac when things go wrong; and you have a far wider range of nukes which lets you select the appropriate situational one for your target. (The most advanced that cleric nuking gets is to decide:- is this mob undead ? If so use this spell, if not use that one. Duh.)

Most druids, I believe, would want class balancing to balance the classes. Things were imbalanced one way before; if the changes go live as they stand, they will certainly be imbalanced the other way.

In the raid environment, I can't see how this really changes your role unless your guild is terminally short of clerics... attempting a CH rotation using a 2,925hp Complete Heal sounds like a horrible CR waiting to happen, to me. You're still spam healers, patch healers and rampage healers, only now you're better at it.

That's why I believe that it's in your best interests to call for further changes. You still need a more meaningful raid role. Clerics still need versatility and utility. In XP groups the pendulum has swung too far, to your short-term benefit - but think about the role which you want in a group and the role that you want on a raid. Try to see things in proportion and call for changes which will be sustainable in the long term.

I don't think anyone here would argue with giving clerics utility type spells. Personally I think if this hammer and yaulp combination on test allows them to kill mobs solo then GREAT. I hope it works for them.
I am however getting a little tired of clerics bashing the hell out of druids. Why am I not seeing the same things aimed at shaman? They have the same spell on test, canni, buffs, sow, regen, slow, nice dot's, etc. They can just as easily solo to 60 as a druid can AND will bring not only this new heal but also the required SLOW to a raid.

Why aren't clerics underwear in a bunch about that??

BTW I am in favor of the latest. Since druids or shammies are usually the ones saving my a$$ when I draw aggro, I am all for them having greater healing. Shammies would not compete with us as primary healers in raids cause they are too busy debuffing. Druids are usually back up healers.

What I would be in favor of is clerics getting many of the druids abilities in support of soloing. If you are all serious about wanting greater grouping ability, then you should also be in favor of clerics getting better soloing ability. As stated before a quad nuke spell, snare, SOW, port and invis ability would go a long way to getting clerics out of groups and out soloing (something they can not do now)

I find my cleric being more requested in raids, but the druid more often in exp groups. The druid is 50 times as good in solo situations. Have just 1/2 hour to play; jump on with the druid and quad kite. Forget playing cleric unless you have 20 minutes to find an area to get in group and then dedicate at least 3 or 4 hours playing lest you get a bad name for leaving group right after joining.

I would never call for nerfing druids but I wonder how many of you will be complaining if they start to give clerics all of the powers that make druids unique?

Brum they HAVE given away powers that make druids unique. Take away all spells that rangers have....many would rather have a ranger melee'ing then a druid what do we have above them? A better damage shield...most groups would rather have slow...its WAYYYYY better. Snare..covered, regen..shaman again, evac?? Yeah I've been in probably 10 groups over 3 years that evac'ed...with CC, roots, etc. most of the time people don't need to evac. Porting? Bind in TD and port to any city you'd like. Wait til PoP it'll be even better for you. Nukes...we do decently there but who wouldn't rather have a mage for better DS's, focus items, a pet that can dish out serious damage, and nukes that are comparable. How many items in the game now give druid effects? Click sow (shaman potions, run3, jboots, etc.), snare, root, port (greater fay BP), damage shields, regen...there is NOTHING that a druid does that isn't covered by an item in the game. Have you ever seen CH or a 96% rez on an item other then one that is cleric only?? I didn't think so. As you can see our class has been utterly destroyed by just items in the game let alone other classes making advances that make our abilities not worth while any more....wizards and TLs just for one....shamans getting group regrowth another, etc. etc. ALOT.

I play a druid. Druids are the jack of all trades. I dont believe it is fair that rangers get many of the abilities of a druid. Every class should have some defining ability.

But try to solo let alone quad with a cleric once. It is laughable. I am in favor of giving the druids better healing. Heck I dont even mind them getting better healing. Since they might be saving my life, I would not mind druids or shammies having a faster cast time on their version of cheal.

What I am also asking for is increased cleric soloing ability to put us more on par with druids, shammies, wizards, necros, beastlords and mages. Do you realize we are the only caster class who can not solo worth a d%$#. Even chanties with pets solo better than us. Know why there are so many clerics in groups? It is because we can not solo. To increase our soloing would open up more group slots for druids and shammies.

Giving us better melee in groups? WTF cleric should be medding instead of meleeing. A nuke is more efficient than the damage a cleric could do meleeing.

For soloing give us SOW or snare so we can kite, give us charm or a pet for a little help in killing. Invis to get places.

I realize that the druid is best at nothing. They are number 2 in about 10 things. Clerics may be number 1 in healing but they are number 15 in about everything else.

Lets list what the two classes can do

Cleric Druid

CH #1 superior heal #2
buffs #1 buffs #2
port ????? Ports #1
Sow ?????? Sow #1
regen #2 regen #2
invis ???? maybe undead invis #1
snare ????? snare #1
quading ???? quading #1
enduring breathe ?? eb #1


As you can see the cleric is better at healing and buffing. EVERY where else they are laughable. I support druid efforts to improve their raid worth, you would think you would support my soloing value (if for nothing else than to create openings in groups)

As a cleric I am not upset that druids are getting better healing, I am upset at the @#%$ balancing they are doing to compensate clerics for it in the solo and exp group level. Any cleric who is meleeing in an exp group would probably be better spending his time nuking and medding. At least give us pet hammers that last like 15 mins. Our pet pops after every fight. WTF

Giving clerics quad kiting ability and invis would pretty much see all bitching disappear cause all the clerics would be headed out to solo. I get my @#%$ handed to me by greens all the time with my cleric while my druid can kick @#%$ on dark blues and even some evens. As a cleric I hate being reliant on groups to get exp and as a druid I hate not being invited on raids. I see the Cheal as maybe fixing the later but nothing being done to fix the cleric solo problem.

qute "I wouldn't be too quick to give clerics more better abilities. They are, after all, a specialized class. Rounding them out, so to speak, may well make them overpowered in relation."

That is a direct quote from the post "casters balance". made by elendar on page 3. That is what has clerics upset. Yes we are specialized. We are good in one area and one area alone. So why if there is going to be an equalizing in that area is there not going to be an across the board equalization of classes. Equal us all out on raid abilities ie heal and buff but then equal us all out on solo and exp abilities also. I would love to be a snaring, sowing, slowing, debuffin, porting, invising, leving, enduring breath, quading, dsing addition to a party. Rather than just healing. The whole thing with healing is clerics were the best at it. If they take that away without correct compensation such as giving us druid and shaman abilities then it is not fair.

Brum,
Your post seems pretty irrelevant now that we learned Clerics on test are Duoing into CT...Soloing in HS.. What more do you want exactly?

Oh maybe the ability to SOW, port, quad kite, evac, invis, levitate, damage shield etc.

What level are those clerics? Do you honestly think clerics can solo let alone quad kite for enormous exp in 75% of the places druids can? I cant even get to most of those places cause I dont have invis. What other caster class does not have invis?

I am a supporter of druids having more utility in raids. REad my posts, I have a 49 druid as well as my cleric and think the cheal will be excellent. Like I said it will probably be me the spell saves.

Since I support your ability to improve yourself in raids, the question is why are you so against clerics improving their soloing abiltity to approximate yours? That I guess is the clerics questions. Why are you so jealously against us getting all the spells that would effectively let us solo? Heck with us soloing there are groups open for you.

I believe the best way to describe this is to imagine you are with a group of friends playing D&D. The GM gives you all 100 points to spend any way you want between melee, healing, defense, general skills and buffing

warrior chooses 60 percent melee and 40 percent defense

cleric chooses 50 healing, 25 buffing and 25 defense

shaman chooses 20 healing 35 melee 25 buffing 10 general 10 defense

druid chooses 20 healing, 20 melee, 20 buffing, 20 general 20 defense



Now the druid (or shammy) looks at cleric and says "hey his healing is 30 better than mine I want 20 more points to improve my healing. Why shouldn't the cleric get 20 more points to spend on his general skills? The secret to being a jack of all trades is that you are master of none. To be second best at everything means you would sacrifice specialization.

Now the cleric is specialized. Like I said I have no problem with you getting more specialized in healing but I would like to be more of a jack of all trades (Ie soloing).

you only have so many points to spend. If you spend more on healing you get less elsewhere. I realized that as a cleric and sacrificed my ability to be a jack of all trades. However if there are more points being given out then I would like to get some also.

Brum,
A 49 Druid is not a raiding Druid. You have not seen the higher end encounters with your Druid like you have your cleric. As we've pointed out many times, the game changes a LOT in the 50s for a Druid.

Yes, Druids can solo reasonably well. We're probably in the top 5. For the most part, that's a personal preference. Many Druids here (the majority?) would rather group at least most of the time. Locking any class out of the social aspects of the game because your class is undesirable is what Verant wants to avoid. Clerics have never really dealt with this at scale like Necros, Druids, SKs, Rangers have in the past. They've always been absolutely essential for the "best" content.

Also, your "comparison" is not very accurate nor helpful. You have Druids listed #1 or #2 in several categories where there is NO WAY that's the case. For example, try bringing your Druid on a Fear raid and see how many buffs folks ask you for.

Anyway, I think most Druids here would not begrudge upgrades for clerics in several areas ("pet" hammer, invis, self-ports, etc.) but carrying it over to snare, SoW, quadding, etc. we'd be right back to where we started with Druids having NO unique abilities and NO desirability in xp groups or raids. But I guess that's where you want us, eh?

Primero Aventurero
55 Druid

I think invis would be number one request, followed by pet who could tank (ours cant take hits) and also doesnt poof after one fight. To solo some kind of snare for nuke kiting or self sow for escape from bad melee would be necessary(maybe not if our pet was better). Self ports to temples in cities.

There are three different issues. Raids, exp groups and soloing.

Druids need to be made more powerful in raids. Shammies already have a job with debuffs and slowing and really would not have the extra mana to heal anyhow.

exp group druids and clerics are about equal. Clerics are better at healing and buffing and still will be after upgrade (which read again I am in favor of) Druid offers a lot in damage shield, snare, track, regen and evac if needed. Pretty close now and will be after the upgrade also.

Soloing? Currently there is no soloing for a cleric. Yes they are discussing some adds for a cleric but none help a pre-58 cleric solo. I agree that grouping is the reason for the game but soloing is fun sometimes. Trust me just because you are a cleric does not mean you get a group. If I log on and can not get a group I wind up logging off and playing a different character. I leveled my druid up by logging her on everytime cleric could not get a group. Wham go quad ulthorks and level in 2 hours. Not possible with a cleric.

Dont think of a cleric as the enemy. Most of us are in favor of you getting more raid power. My question remains: why are you all so adamant against us getting soloing ability which would mostly be used in the pre 55+ game anyhow?

and no I want druids more powerful. but do you realize that druids can now rez with the new jaggedpine shield. Now what were you saying about defining abilities? If I am not going to begrudge you more power, why are you begrudging me?

Sorry for the additional adds. Guess I should read thru and think about all my replies first. My druid has gone on several raids into hate and fear. Damage shield, regen are always requested. Our guild leader is a 60 druid and POTC is always requested. I cast SLN on all non tanks in my group, SOW my group. Tracking is a huge plus. And I have backup healing for whoever takes a momentary aggro. In fact I have been the only healer in my group in fear sometimes as a 49 druid. Luckily we were not the exp group and rarely got aggro. Heck I usually make a hot button for main tank and have done band aid healing on them also.

You bet I would like a better heal. I am not arguing that.

I am trying to get you to understand that it is two different points. More power for druids on raids. More power for clerics in solo. The two are mutually exclusive. I raid with my guild. The more powerful the druids and shammies the better off we are. But dammit why must clerics be shafted in solo. Why are you so protective of your "unique" class defining skills when we have none left?

We buff--Chanters/shaman/druids/beastlords/paladins/rangers buff

WE heal--all those same heal

WE CH--shammies and druids 75% ch

we rez--pallies and druids rez

Where is our class defining skill?????

Give us a self SOW, invis, kiting abilities. We dont ask to be the solo gods that druids are. But let us have a chance at solo. Our utilities dont have to be as good. Druids have a 60% increase in speed, then give me a 40% increase. anything to keep my little butt out of trouble. and mine could be self only. ports to city temples only is not near as impressive as your ports--fine I dont care at least I wont be charged 40 plat each time I need to get from antonica to velious to rez a friend. Invis--every other caster has it. You need invis to get to many dungeons to even consider soloing. Damage shields, foraging, tracking, str buffs--clerics have no equivalent.

You are all worried about protecting your defining skill but so quick to take on all the cleric ones. I am trying to be friendly but dont you see some hypocrisy there? As a cleric I can say make the druids more powerful in raids and give them my defining abilities like CH and rez, but you turn around and say the cleric cant have any soloing ability cause then we lose our defining ability?

Once again I say make the druid more powerful in raids; heck give them more power by decreasing casting time on their ch. But hey how about some quid pro quo here and supporting our request for actual worthwhile soloing ability? Or is that too much to ask?

I have played a druid for over 2 years. I have never played a cleric. My druid is my main and the toon I play 98% of the time. I have been in an uber guild, but got burned out raiding, and now I am in a friendly higher lvl guild. I am a GOOD druid.

It hurts me to see my fellow treehuggers whining about this spell that doesnt exist yet..."it doesnt heal enuf"...."it doesnt cast fast enuf"...WHAAAAAA! Get some cheese with that wine! I dont wanna be a healer, if I did I would be a cleric. I knew going into this class that most peeps didn't like druids due to the many arses that play the class. Most clerics went into the class knowing that the main role of that class is sitting down and healing. I have a cleric friend that constantly tells me, damn I wish I was a druid so I could solo, my reply is...Damn I wish I was a cleric so I would be wanted. My point is, this new healing spell IF it is implemented would be a boon for druids, no doubt about it. Will I replace a cleric? NO FREAKING WAY! I like my role as "utility" player, it fits who I am RL.

Clerics come here and say "now we should get ports/snare/whatever". Ok, be shunned! like we have forever. I really don't believe that VI can bring these new heal spells out and not throw clerics a bone. Clerics need to take a deep breath, relax and see what happens. That is the attitude most of the good clerics I know are taking, AND looking forward too. Balancing is an ongoing process, a work in progress. Be patient or quit/start another toon!

So, in summary. a cleric doesnt solo, but raids don't go off without them. Druids help raids go off by getting peeps to the proper location in a reasonable amount of time. If druids arent there, the raid can still happen, though someone may beat you to it. Pick what your goal is, and then pick your class, then SHUT UP! or start another character. I dont want my main reason for being to.. rez/CH, anymore then a cleric wants their main reason for being to be a portho. We will become better healers with this spell, IF it becomes live, please Clerics see what VI has for you, before you get your knickers in a knot. Heck, Shammies dont even want this spell! If you would all, really stop and think about what this spell is, and what it does...it is not that big a deal. Stop and think about the number of mobs out there that do WAY over 3k hps every 10 secs... I can keep a well rounded group healed in most non-raid situations now...Druids dont get invited to groups that NEED a real healer...this spell that is still on TEST only, is little better then window dressing. Does it have it uses, yes! Will it make us better healers then clerics? NO! We, as druids are a "priest" class. If you really stop and think about our actual usage, we simply fit. We can't DoT as well as necros/shammies, we cant nuke like a wiz, we cant mez like a chanter, we CANT...not now and proly not EVER heal like a cleric. Druids can put a "band-aid" on the above mentioned mentioned roles, but cannot and will not ever be able to fill those roles! Suck it up! We, as druids are a soloing class that, if the occasion is right, fill those crucial spots. Personally, I like that role. If you dont...sorry but you picked the wrong class. We are NOT essential! We NEVER will be! GET over IT!

Ganluin Nietche
Hiepocrit of Unchained
7th Hammer

*edit - just out of curiosity, why did you post the exact same reply on two threads?*