View Full Forums : AA, Good Investment, Bad Investments

12-04-2002, 01:25 AM
I am curious to find from people that did aa, doing aa, or redoing aa how what abilites beyond "run 3/regen 3" were extremely usefull and very fullfilling or just a stagnant waste of time and effort. My playing style varies, grouping, charm kiting, quadding and other such so not I'm not really sure what abilities to chose after I reach arch.

12-04-2002, 01:29 AM
Regen 3 was a decent waste for me. Innate metabolism was MUCH more useful.

Ellendilh Silvermist
12-04-2002, 01:29 AM
Innate Cammo and Exodus were excellent investments, I haven't regretted them.

Spirit of the Wood has been nice as well, although I wish they would solve some stackng issues.

12-04-2002, 03:10 AM
I took regen too becasue most things seemed useless. I took metabolism on a friends advice and found it to be great. Beyond that it depends on your playstyle.

12-04-2002, 03:31 AM
5 pts into innate wisdom - glad I did this given the cap increase and that I'm a half elf.

3 into run it.

Healing adept 1 - shrug, I haven't gone back for the other 2 so....The small increase in hp healed vs the number of points it takes didn't appeal to me.

Mental clarity 1 - I love mana regen. lvl 3 of this is to expensive but I might go back and invest the points soon.

Spell casting fury 3 - love it.

Spell casting mastery 2 - if the 3rd lvl didn't cost so much I would have gotten it by now. This is one of those must haves but is always behind something else I want.

Dire charm - just got it so can't really say much about it other than a little tree frog owns.

Exodus - best points you can spend.

Inate Camo same as exodus.

Fury of Magic 1 - was cheap and I love crits. I don't notice much of an increase though so shrug.

I didn't get regen because I don't get hit much. I can see this as really important for melee (especially pullers) but couldn't justify it for my druid - to many other things to get.

I will go back and get metabolism, especially now that I have a horse.

So, out of 53 points spent I don't regret any of them. Everything I picked fits my play style pretty well. My top 3 fav that I couldn't do without are Exodus, Innate Cammo and SCF.

12-04-2002, 04:32 AM
What i've gotten so far and my opinions...

Run Speed3- no brainer and must have

Regen3- not a big deal, helps, but not a necessity, but not many other great options in this tier

SCF3- Fun and Effective. Depends on playstyle. lvl3 makes a huge difference than 1 and 2.

Exodus- imo a must-have for any Druid. Especially for those that like to explore or do risky things.

Mental Clarity- First point only costs 2aa, so easily worth it. Think of it as 2aa for FT1.

Healing Crit1- I dont regret it. Agreeing with what someone else said here like a month+ ago, Healing Crit > Healing Adept. Rationale was who cares about an extra 40-90 or so on top of CB or NT, when you can Crit for more than double. Using NT i go on Crit streaks like 1700 or something and i'm only at lvl1. Btw, almost everytime i've crit, its never been wasted since they were off patches, invaluable for the patching Druid imo. I dont think i'd notice an extra 90 pts healed on any tank, dont think he would either. Although i'd definitely notice a 5.5 cast time 1700+ pt heal(pre-POP spell) if your patching and the MT is taking hard, fast damage like they usually do in POP. Also should mention, i crit much more often with NT than i do CB.

Wraith of the Wild- It stinks. As some Druids mentioned, it stacks with Arcane rune(think 1500hp Ench self-only rune) to give an Ench a DS of between 356(lvl1) to 650's(lvl3?) for as long as the rune lasts. Helpful, kinda cool, too bad 1500hps doesnt last too long iwth the rate POP mobs hit. Not to mention, its not like you want your Ench MT'ing all that often. Its just that with the tougher the mob, the harder he hits, the faster he eats through the rune, the less useful this ability is.

Fury of Magic2- Currently notice a big difference in Crits. Maybe i'm just on a lucky streak, its really very difficult to tell how much better our Crits get for each lvl due to the randomn streakiness.

Spirit of Wood- Very nice ability to have, and imo our best POP ability. Very cheap on aa cost as well.

Radiant Cure- Very handy in many situations. It may not cure everything, but it sure cures enough to make it worth having. Just wish we could somehow get the refresh time reduced.

12-04-2002, 04:41 AM
Great post, thanks guys that's very helpful.

12-04-2002, 05:19 AM
Seriena, my advice is to resist all temptations to spend points until you have 6 saved up for SCM3; get that before you get anything else. Definitely get it before you go for MC2.

Saving mana in the first place is better than spending mana and waiting to regain it back, even at a higher rate of regain. SCM keeps more of your mana pool available, causing less chance of going OOM during long fights, and requiring less mana regen for shorter fights and constant pulling.

As for my own AA...

Innate regen 3 (has come in handy but wish I had done metabolism first), run speed 3 (must-have for indoor hunting, period), metabolism 2, wisdom 1 (going to max this one over time now that cap is increased).

Priest Archetypes:
I've maxed most *except* for Healing Adept; that tiny bit of extra healing just isn't worth spending all those AA points. Fact is, I use the quick heals more often than TR, so I did spend points for Healing Gift just for the chance of occasional crits. Oh and as you probably guessed, I've found SCM3 of more value than anything else.

Innate camo ... well what can I say, turning invis nearly *at will* is just too handy to pass up. Dire charm has been more fun than anything else in the game thus far -- albeit more frustrating as well (horrible pet pathing/warping, and limited number of zones with DCable animals). Exodus has saved my booty (and my groupmates' booties) many many times and is truly the 'get out of jail free' card of our class line-up. Quick DD is useful but in my opinion has been more luxury than necessity. SCR is another luxury I've not maxed yet because of having Extended Enhancement III focus (will max SCR if/when I have 61+ buffs for which EE3 doesn't work). Specifically for spirit of the wood, I'm about to get MGB, which I had previously avoided because before PoP, its only real use for my guild/groups would have been CoS, and 400 mana (less with SCM) isn't costly enough to worry about MGBing it.

Planar Advancement:
I've not maxed any AA stat raisers in General category, so haven't worried about these yet. The one exception was Planar Power, which increases all the stat caps by 5/rank without spending prerequisite points.

Planar Abilities:
Have them all except Viscid Root. I honestly have no desire to lose my ability to break roots at-will with a nuke. If I want do damage to a rooted mob without breaking root, a DoT is more efficient anyway. On the other hand, if VR was an "activated" ability instead of passively affecting all roots, I'd probably get it. Spirit of the Wood has been an excellent boon for grouping and soloing, and will be even better for raids when I get a couple more points for MGB. Radiant Cure is literally a lifesaver against necro/SK mobs that like to snare their victims from a distance before closing in, especially when they see you before you see them.

Priest Planar:
Can't really tell you if it's been a good investment because I'm not there yet. Will eventually get Advanced Healing Gift but it's not high on my priority list. As for AHA, same reasoning as regular HA, just not worth the points in my opinion.... maybe I'd feel differently if I never grouped with clerics and wanted every healing edge possible. Advanced Innate Enlightenment is on the to-do list but I'd need a wisdom buff to go beyond my current max anyway.


12-04-2002, 05:34 AM
I know, I know. I just need to bite the bullet and save up the points. bleh it just seems like work ;p

Lotusfly Stewnicely
12-04-2002, 06:07 AM
It's an interesting question. I consider most abilities to be "good", with the exception of the ability that speeds up one's teleports by 50%.

The rest vary in "goodness", with some bordering on being decidedly average (Enhanced Root), but every single one offers some performance gain. Sadly enough, my character has nearly all abilities now (excepting the stat-boosts, which are restricted to Luclin-Stamina and Luclin-Wisdom). In that context, they all add value. Some certainly add much more value than others for the amount of points that one spends.

The true highlights, in my opinion, are:

* Spell Casting Mastery (the single-most essential ability)

* Exodus (for grouping)

* Mass Group Buff (for raids)

* Healing Adept / Advanced Healing Adept (my character puts her emphasis on healing)

* Innate Camo (pure utility)

* Spirit of the Wood (adds a non-druidic ability, a true elixir)

* Viscid Roots (roots become useful in the high-level game again)

* Spell Casting Fury / Fury of Magic (for when mana is to be burned)

The rest, whilst good, are not quite up to that level of pure increase in your character's performance.

Some come under the category of "useful, and adding value, but you really wouldn't buy this if AA points were scarce". ^_))


The Lucky Cabbage

Klotar AngedeMorts
12-04-2002, 06:36 AM
I also can't say I regret the spending of any AA points thus far. There are many things to spend points on; and as noted previously, not many are complete wastes... I don't think I have spent any foolishly yet (probably because the points don't come all that easy - hehe).

No regrets on Innate Camo, Exodus, Dire Charm (for the time that I got it), SCF3, SCR3, SCM3. If I was to be forced to disclose my possible 'poor choices', I would perhaps have to say (name escapes me at the moment) the one that reduces the timer on Exodus by 10%/lvl.

12-04-2002, 08:40 AM
Being evocation specialized, my world changed when Tunare's Renewal began. I have no intention of changing my specialization, but it did drastically alter the way I play and the AA I purchased.

Instead of going all out for SCF3, I detoured back to SCM3 and HA and even HG spells, to make the heals I was increasingly casting more efficient so that I could still get some nuking in. I don't regret those expenditures at all, but it was a crazy hodge-podge of abilities for awhile. Now I finally have SCF3 like I wanted, and will next be tackling SotW and RC then returning to get innate camo and exodus and then I dunno what. Maybe the viscid roots, maybe something else.

Not sure yet.

Za Arain
12-04-2002, 08:59 AM
Why do people make a big deal about MGB for raids? Seasons is the only group buff I cast regularly on raids and doing the whole raid doesn't take all that much time or mana. There's usually multiple druids around too.

12-04-2002, 09:19 AM
The only reason i would think about getting MGB for raids is for AE Spirit of Wood. Other classes have enough downtime from buffing for me to squeeze in multiple group buff casts and still be FM by the time we're ready to rock.

12-04-2002, 09:23 AM
It used to not be very usful, but a MGB of Spirit of Wood can make a huge difference in fight. Especially on something with a nasty AE or DoT. Also it can help stablize a fight that is beginning to slip away. Before PoP aa I'll agree that MGB wasn't useful, but now it seems to be a very viable ability

Fayne Dethe
12-04-2002, 09:41 AM
Healing Adept might not have been that great before Tunares Renewal, but now with TR and new PoP spells it is a must get. My Natures Infusion now does 2050 heal instead of 1750, my KR does 5500 instead of 4800 - I consider both of those quite significant. Sure, if you dont have your new PoP healing spells, it might not seem as beneficial, but it is still a nice addition to Tunares Renewal. I plan on maxing out Advanced healing adept very soon (have level 2 right now). However, I think healing gift is just mediocre since it doesnt work with TR/KR - get level 1 in it just for the ability to crit Natures Infusion, but I dont plan on taking it much further. HG3 is okay, but advanced healing gift is quite the rip off - only 6% increase for 12 pts.

The only "play" AA that I have that I feel is just mediocre is Wrath of Wild - its fantastic when you duo with a chanter and they get the mob slowed, but in normal use its just the equivalent of a small manaless nuke that can be used every 3 minutes. I think the refresh time on it needs to be lowered to a minute or so, it doesnt have the flashiness of the mage/shaman damage AA ability and too long of refresh time for its damage when not used with an enchanter.

As for MGB, I got it to use with Spirit of Wood, Blessing of Replenishment, and Blessing of Nine (of course I still dont have Blessing of Nine). However, once alot of my guild members get Blessing of Replenishment, I probably wont MGB it. But Blessing of Nine & Spirit of Wood is enough of a reason to get it.

12-04-2002, 10:05 AM
OK, I saw a couple peeps mentioning innate metabolism, and being really happy with it.

OK, what am I missing? You consume food slower, right? I just don't see how that is worth 3 AAs. I can port/gate to a city anytime I want for rations (and a stacks lasts a couple days), or use the cool new stat boosting foods, and a stack lasts over a week (miraculous, etc).

I could see it, maybe, for a non-gating class, where you're dependant for others to move you around.

Anyway, my $.02


12-04-2002, 10:15 AM
The way I see it is stat enhancing food is a must. Itís like having another equipment slot in your inventory. You wouldnít put a nonstat enhancing item in your ranged slot would you? So, with that in mind I make all my food, itís not difficult and not that time consuming but I donít want to be doing it every day Ė or even every other day. And I donít want to buy something in the bazaar that I can easily make. So, considering you can make about an aa per hour or hour and a half of serious exp hunting and inate metabo only costs 1 aa per lvl, youíll come out ahead in the end. Itís pure convenience, but so is every other aa.

12-04-2002, 10:38 AM
I've been thinking of Metabolism just because the rate at which i consume food and water on a horse. Its rediculous how much more i eat, i go through bottles of Fizzlecutter and banquest size meals in a day.

My horse is a pig :P

12-04-2002, 10:51 AM
Yep, horse is a good reason. But using Grobb Liquidized Meat, and Misty Thicket Picnics ( I buy them, so I have save on cash too.. not that it's really a big deal ), with innate metabolism 3, it takes me a LONG time to go through a stack or two of each, even using a horse pretty constantly. I love having the stat bonuses and pretty much not having to worry about them running out.

12-04-2002, 12:11 PM
Yah...stat food/drink is really the way to go. I don't have metabolism, so I force feed other food (which isn't too bad being that I forage stuff to forage)..but I sure wouldn't mind have metab. 3 so as to slow that down because I do eat one of my picnics every once in a while.

If I was super rich, I wouldn't worry about - but until then, *must* force feed!

12-04-2002, 12:43 PM
"So, considering you can make about an aa per hour or hour and a half of serious exp hunting and inate metabo only costs 1 aa per lvl"

OK, there's the difference then, I guess. It takes me 3-4 hours per AA, so 3 points is a much bigger deal to me.

And since I hit the bazaar every day anyway, restocking is not a problem.

If I get to the point that I get AAs in an hour, I may pick up this AA =)


12-04-2002, 02:28 PM
Agree with healing gift being not nearly so useful as healing adept. Thankfully I only have HG1 and haven't wasted any more points in it (yet). I'll get it after all of the combat skills eventually.

A 10% bonus to ALL healing spells consistently >>> a randomly activated 10% bonus to your healing ability (10% chance of 100% crit = 10% overall bonus via HG3).

And AHA at least does *not* scale nicely ... it's 3% bonus per level and costs 2/4/6 points. So like MC, the first couple of levels are really attractive and the last level will make you think twice about getting it. Personally I grabbed AHA1 because it was cheap and I'm playing around with some other skills before bothering to go back and max it out for the last 6% to my healing (but my AA are weighted far more towards damage than healing).

12-04-2002, 04:59 PM
Channeling focus 3 (this acutally works I like it)
Innate camo
Innate Enlightenment
Raidant Cure

Next I think I will get maybe dire charm.

MGB still seems a waste of nine points to me
Most people prefer the cleric buff to save the buff spot from the Po9/symbol combo and sure CR/FR is nice, and regen for MGB but hardly worth nine points.

12-05-2002, 05:08 AM
"`A 10% bonus to ALL healing spells consistently >>> a randomly activated 10% bonus to your healing ability (10% chance of 100% crit = 10% overall bonus via HG3)."

Sorry, this philosophy just doesnt work for me. I just think the added bonus HA gives to the heals i use(CB, NT, and TR) arent much to get excited about. Sure, it sounds great in theory, just like how many HP's our regens heal over time sounds great in theory, but fact is your healing on the spot. Its hard for me to put into words what i'm trying to say here. When your patching does an extra 40pts or 90pts healed make much of a difference? Imo not at all. If your tank is going down, or low on health, HA isnt going to help keep him up for another second. But a double crit heal is going to double the time you have for someone to land a CH or another patch.

Fayne Deth made some good points with HA that i didnt think about, unfortunately i dont have any of the new POP heal spells and if i did i think HA is definitely worth it. Even for TR, its opened my eyes some but when i'm healing a PC, my current TR can usually heal to full unless its a raid buffed MT. It'd be nice for healing my pets who have like 10k hp's though.

So i guess its a matter of what you tend to do more, big heals or small heals. Whether or not you have the POP healing spells. In my position, no POP heals, i just consider the 10% bonus not much to sneeze at because it makes very little difference. However, if i did have the POP heals i agree that HA > HG.

12-05-2002, 05:16 AM
Btw, it should be mentioned that Improved Healing Focus doesnt stack with HA. I'm pretty sure they do the same thing. Downside is IH takes up a slot.

12-05-2002, 07:24 AM
Just wanted to comment on some of the popular general skills.

Innate Metabolism.

This one sounds promising, but not very urgent. Good stat food can be bought very cheaply from NPC vendors in the bazaar. Great duration food can be foraged in many zones, and any druid should be maxed in forage by their 60's, if for nothing else for having done the epic foraging. Druids also have summon food and summon water spells. While it can be a mild inconvenience, there is simply no reason...ever....for a druid to starve. I wouldn't throw the points that way.

Innate Regen

If you have a quest BP, I see absolutely no reason to get this skill. If I understand correctly it adds 1hp/tick per level when you add this skill. Clicky BP is 15/tick. The benefit of even all 3 levels would be hard to even see. If you don't have hte clicky BP, and can't say cast Spirit of Oak (another great way to regen up say after a rez) maybe it is worth it...but the in combat benefits of 3hp/tick regen are immeasurably small. If this skill somehow works better while sitting it might be more worth it...but to me it seems like a waste.

Run3 -

Godly...only have run1 myself but will definitely, absolutely, and surely get run3. Can't count the number of times it would have saved my @#%$...even recently in cases where you zone into a zone naked and unbuffed and someone has trained the GY yet again...a quicker sprint to the port out will get you to a good spot to grumble sooner.

For me, in my general I did 5 wis and 1 run. My reasoning is that any wis I have in my base stats I don't need through gear, and that frees me up to pursue stats that are harder to get up in other slots.

12-05-2002, 07:36 AM
Lotus's list generally matches mine for priority.

She didn't include Radiant Cure though, and I definitely would. Very handy...I will definitely get level 3 of it eventually.

Just think...magic based dots and effects can be removed regardless of what slot they are in without debuffing someone. That is simply a huge change, and very valuable.

MGB I am less sold on. I got it so my guild could try Kazads + POTG as a buff option, but the response has been lukewarm. Until VI follows through on what they said at fanfaire (creating temp slots where termporary buffs like bard songs go so they don't take up real buff slots), it is hard to go from 1 to 2 buffs. Handy in some cases, but people are definitely not sold yet.

I would not have bothered if I didn't have hte fallback of using it for MGB SotW.

Still last night we were in NTOV and I thought about using it. Problem was we had about 54 people there and lag was bad. First pass on Aary we lost because so many went LD and they pushed him out of position. (Second pass was squeeky clean though). Didin't think adding an MGB spam in that environment was a good idea. Will find a better time for mad halfling experiments.

12-05-2002, 09:53 AM
Neither HA nor HG make any dramatic effect on raids. 99.9% of the time your patch heals aren't really keeping a tank up ... they're just the emergency backup system if the CH chain hiccups ... A HG crit on a critical patch heal is going to happen ... how often? Not enough to have the crit on raids argument bear any weight with me.

I look at the skills more in normal grouping, where generally I can and do play the primary healer. If I had only HG, then I would a) be limited to only one line of spells (a lower efficiency one) that can possibly crit, and b) I would have to let my tank get low enough that in order for me to realize the benefit of HG, I would be much much much better off using TR or KR to heal that tank.

Contrast that with healing adept, that works on both of our lines of spells, and is a consistent mana saving device so you're more likely to actually be able to take advantage of the increased healing capacity.

The argument is the same even if you have a cleric in the group, although generally then I'm nuking instead of healing, but I'm ready to step in if need be to keep up the chanter or whatever.

I don't think there's even any comparison between the usefulness of these two skills, they don't even come close.

I'd agree that healing gift is more useful than some of our other skills ... certainly isn't a *waste* of points. I just wish TR/KR could crit ... then I'd get it just for healing chanter pets =x

12-05-2002, 10:12 AM

Contrast that with healing adept, that works on both of our lines of spells, and is a consistent mana saving device so you're more likely to actually be able to take advantage of the increased healing capacity.

<hr />

I simply never will swallow this. Yes, if you abstract any skill out over the very long term you can see the theoretical benefits of it. ie, HA3 x 1000 casts of CB...well that would be an extra 42000 hp healed!

Yes, it would.

But I really don't think it would save me a single heal...not one.

We simply are not often put in situations where we need to chain heal, and that is the only circumstance where a bit of extra healing per cast will materially affect the number of times you cast a spell.

Say you are in a group witha 65 warrior who has 7500hp. You are healing. He pulls a mob, takes 3500dmg, you cast TR without HA and heal him for 2925, and he is still down 575 hp from max. Do you top him off with a CB? Probably not.

About now the mob gets slowed. You have to heal the tank 2 more times during the course of that fight.

Now lets say instead you have HA3 (not getting into planar yet). Your first heal heals him for extra 293 hp. You definitely won't top off with CB now. But will taht 293 hp, or the 293 from the TR you cast next...will both of them prevent you from needing to cast the third TR?

The answer simply must be no. Your gain is an extra 600hp or so of healing, and that last TR would have been for 2925 without the benefit. With HA3, you would still need to cast TR again.

Any theoretical benefit that accumulates over time from modest extra healing per cast is more than offset by the combination of regen spells and down time. HA will not make a significant dent in your downtime, and any time you have a break, you have the opportunity for free healing through regen.

Yes, HA will save you some mana...but no where near 10%...not by a long shot. HG won't either.

I will be getting both, don't get me wrong. But I really disagree with arguments that boil it down in a labratory type way...the "real world" circumstances of your healing casts are unlikely to change very materially through either of these skills...but they both do help.

I do think they are worth the investment, but I really don't see any compellnig arguments anymore that one is inherently better than another.

I am leaning toward HA at this point not for mana savings, but for the benefit in healing per second. In certain raids, I will be healing a warrior (we can have as many as 8 60plus warriors at a raid and on MA fights clerics are mostly in the CHrot). In those circumstances, doing more healing within a given period of time is important enough to me to pursue.

12-05-2002, 10:48 AM
I am stuck on Arch skills...

IMHO.. The general skills are all useless.. and I would skip them all if I could.

In Arch, well I like variety over power... I think I will probably get:


This gives me a small chance at 133% critical hits, 1 mana / tick extra (yeah.. I will never notice it), 15% more duration on buffs, and a bit more mana.

This just seems a lot more useful then just getting SCM3 (10% more mana).

Why? because I am never OOM.. that is why. So what if I have a 10% bigger pool of mana... Charm solo/grouping with KEI/PoTC/MASK and HORSE... I rarly am below 70% mana.

In the end.. what I really want is Innate Camo and Exodus. The ability to instantly break a charm to re-snare.. or pull a mob then invis while running back is awsome... and getting back a spell-slot with Exodus is awsome too.

After those two class skills, then I would rather have SCR3 and SCRM before worrying about SCM3. I hate re-buffing more then most anything, and having a PotC last 2.5 hours rather then an hour and fourty minutes is a big plus since I normally only play about a 2 hours session in one sitting...

Of couse, I doubt my playstyle is common. I am rather exentric.

12-06-2002, 03:31 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> Wraith of the Wild- It stinks. As some Druids mentioned, it stacks with Arcane rune(think 1500hp Ench self-only rune) to give an Ench a DS of between 356(lvl1) to 650's(lvl3?) for as long as the rune lasts. Helpful, kinda cool, too bad 1500hps doesnt last too long iwth the rate POP mobs hit.[/quote]

was this stacking intentional? my understanding of the WotW ability is that it was supposed to be one time only damage. does anyone think they'll be nerfing this ability to not stack anymore with Arcane Rune? if not, I might consider getting this ability because I just paid 10k for Arcane Rune for my enchanter. but I'd hate to spend points on WotW and then have them nerf it to not stack with Arcane Rune anymore..

also, what if you recast Arcane Rune before the other one was totally depleated? would WotW still stay on?

/em starts thinking about HP/AC gear for his enchanter.. ;)

62 Druid

12-06-2002, 08:36 AM
And no doubt will be nerfed.

Someone (think it was Lotus) did an excellent post on the value of Wrath of the Wild. It is not a bad why not skill...can add a significant amount of mana free dmg over time.

It is (in Lotus's words, again if that was the right poster) our rough equivalent to Wake the Dead and Spirit Call etc. Skill resets reasonably fast, so remember it is not just an MA could potentially put this on all your warriors before a multitank pull for instance. And you can keep resetting it on an MA on a long enough fight (or on a long enough raid).

If someone has the buff slot, and you have the AAXP to burn, it has some limited use. Not as useful as the other classes free dmg skills though since it is dependant on someone else having a buff slot, which in my experience is usually a problem.

Alianna Sedai
12-06-2002, 08:56 AM
As an enchanter puller, if a druid EVER puts that damage shield AA on me I will kick them from my group and NEVER invite them back.

Damage shields on pullers = summoning = death

And to anyone who says enchanters shouldn't be pullers, they are on cheap drugs, Pacification + Tash Pull then Slow on INC = uber, and my Arcane Rune / AA Rune generally means not even any heals are required before the tank gains agro.

12-06-2002, 09:45 AM
"Someone (think it was Lotus) did an excellent post on the value of Wrath of the Wild. It is not a bad why not skill...can add a significant amount of mana free dmg over time."

People are more than welcome to get it, just dont say i didnt warn you. And imo that thread potrayed it in a rather flattering light, too flattering. I wont go into some rant, but that thread contributed to my decision to get it, and it wasnt just from what Lotusfly wrote. But thats my own fault, need to take my own advice and treat things people say with a grain of salt.

I do think the stacks a bug, but its a bug that doesnt need to be corrected because its still limited in use. Yes, you can recast Arcane rune and save the WotW if you do it in time. Its just a hassle and dangerous to have your Ench MT'ing all for abit of extra DS damage that will poof after a few hits(assuming POP mob hitting from 300-600's).

And when you say "significant damage", it really isnt significant if you weigh it against the dps everyone including yourself does at those lvls especially if you factor it in with the same over time intervals as Wotw. I have my WotW refreshed and unclicked all the time, the only times i bother is when i'm trying to squeeze out every little bit of damage i can. I dont even notice a tick off of any POP mobs health bar, thats how insignificant it is. Its like bothering to cast our bear pet or ES arms, just not really worth it if your a practical person, but again, people can judge for themselves.

12-06-2002, 10:02 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> As an enchanter puller, if a druid EVER puts that damage shield AA on me I will kick them from my group and NEVER invite them back.[/quote]

I wouldn't cast this on someone who was pulling if they didn't ask for it.. I just meant for my own enchanter's use in case I decide to go two-box farm Kael or something..

I'm well aware of the summoning DS thing.. it's happened to me a few times.. :p

12-06-2002, 10:10 AM
I agree it is not a priority.

But significant dmg, yes it is.

It is unresistable, and mana free.

At the third level (if ANYONE ever bothers to buy it, it is 650 hp), and the reset time of 4 min, if you are in say an experience group you can add 9,750 of mana free dmg per hour.

Now again, I don't have it...nor am I buying it any time soon.

But, mana free unresistable dmg is significant...whether it is worth the cost entirely depends on how many aaxp you already have and what skills you are missing.

For me, this skill is at least a year away in its current form. I have 55aaxp, and I don't see this popping up as a priority until at least 70aaxp from now (ie when I have 125aaxp I might buy level 1 ; ) ).

12-06-2002, 10:22 AM
"At the third level (if ANYONE ever bothers to buy it, it is 650 hp), and the reset time of 4 min, if you are in say an experience group you can add 9,750 of mana free dmg per hour."

You should also take into account that the 650 figure is only at lvl 3, and you have to be lvl 65 to have it at that lvl of damage with 9aa's into it. I'm not sure what lvl 2 is, but lvl 1 gives you 356 DS, that sometimes only hits for 196 or something. And i'm not saying 650 free damage is nothing, but it really doesnt amount to much, your not really killing any faster, and really makes no noticeable difference. Then again, thats how i feel about our attack debuffs, so i guess its different for everybody in terms of what they think is worthwhile.

I've used it, tried my best to make it worth using, brainstormed with an Ench to make the stack worthwhile, and in the end i regret putting points into it. Theres one thing i want to try with it but havent had a chance to. If that dont work, then i think i've exhausted every possibility to make it a worthwhile ability.

12-06-2002, 10:34 AM
If I had bought it early, I would also post it to this really is a low priority skill imho.

I would sooner have a swarm of booboos, even 2!

12-06-2002, 12:32 PM
I don't have Spirit of the Wood. Had my chances at it but to me it's kind of limited because of the refresh time. I'm sure it's a real boon in cases where the "one shot deal" really helps, as in taking out a boss mob, but I kind of measured it against doing something like HoT where it may be great against one wurm but there's alway more than one isn't there? :p

That's where I have measured Radiant Cure too and found it to be lacking. I think I had it take off an effect on my party there once. Not an acceptable ratio in my view. It does work wonders against mid to low level curses and such though. Also depends on what level you have.

I have never seen the real advantage of Innate Camo myself, other than not having to stop and mem Sup Camo. Five points seems a lot for a skill of convenience. I would rather use the mana and extra few seconds and keep my points for something else.

I would have to say Exodus, SCM 3(supposedly, hehe), and Radiant Cure to a much lesser degree(at least until you get a higher level on it) have all been at least somewhat useful. I don't think there's truly one skill that you can look at and say "oh, I must have it!" because everyone of them has a major drawback to it. By the same token, there are some to stay away from like the plague. :p

wooddy SH
12-12-2002, 08:34 AM
I am shocked so many druids are so into the Spell Casting Fury over heals/buffing ability etc.

If you really love nuking that much, why not create a Wizard if nuking is all important? SPF sure isnt going to mean squat if your nuke is resisted. Sure its a nice ability to have....but I would not rank it higher than some others out there. As druids we can provide much needed heals to buy that split second needed for the Cleric complete heal to come in. Also, Hand of Ro is a must cast as well. I often see too many druids screw up aggro on raids by overnuking. Tsk Tsk Tsk.

As for spirit of the wood is simply awesome. this can make the difference on a raid, trust me. Try XTC in SSRA sometime. That dot of his wears the party down and is annoying as all hell....MGB SOTW and you have countered the damage done by it. It is also very important to realize that this is an instant cast ability. Lets say you get jumped by an add when can click this while running away to regain your health and not have to worry about healing. You can just deal witht he add.

12-12-2002, 02:56 PM
Wanted to point out what Thund said to me.
Spirit is a BUFF so it can be enhanced by any buff aa/ focus (lvl 1 only) needed.

T said he can get 8 yes EIGHT ticks out of his spirt spell, which is 3 more than the norm. Withh aa and a Lockjaw.

A good skill which can get even better.


12-21-2002, 09:56 PM
Spirit of the Wood is godly. I was even able to MGB it while silenced since it technically isn't a spell. That right there makes it very useful.

12-22-2002, 04:22 AM
I have started working on Spell Casting Reinforcement, as I feel having to buff less often is a mana savings. However, I see that nobody else has even mentioned it. Am I off base on this one?

12-22-2002, 01:47 PM
As far as SCR goes, I don't think I'd put points into it. I have the 8th coldain shawl, and the extended buff duration is nice but it's not THAT noticable - SCR would be even less. It's nice on SotW and regens but other than that...a couple more mins on a hp buff that already lasts an hour or 2? /shrug. Not a big enough incentive to spend the points on imo.

12-23-2002, 12:22 AM
Actually, for SCR, you have to look at the mana spent per given amount of time. And the most mana hungry buffs we have are our DSs and our regens (and NR, kinda like a regen).

If you are casting DSs and regens a LOT (and NR), then you will see a nice boost from SCR. If it's just PotC/G, GoK, and CoS, the savings will still be there, though much less, and even less noticable.

The other reason to consider SCR is for SotW. It is possible to add a tick or two to SotW based on SCR AA and focus items.

So, ironically, you notice the benefits of SCR the most with buffs that are short-duration, because long-duration buffs are already very efficient. The only long-duration buff that people care about SCR AAs is KEI =) One chanter on our server actually advertises "3 hour KEI" in the Nexus!


12-23-2002, 04:50 AM
I made 60 shortly before PoP came out. Because I raid frequently, my 'wish list' has altered drastically for AA's.

I currently have 26 (I think) AAs.

When regen3 was refunded, I considered that I hadn't made much use of it. I also considered that I *really* like stat foods/drinks and decided innate metabolism was a good purchase for me. I have not regretted it in any way. My stack of misty thicket picnics lasts a month or more, and that is with a 5 night a week 5 hour a day raid schedule. If you play less, you may not notice the drastic benefit of this ability.

Run3 is a given. Totally a tail saver in dungeons and other inside zones. I hate being slow, run3 ensures that I never am.

There are SO many arch abilities that I want. At the moment I have SCM3 and SCF1. I'm alteration specialized, so I decided a boost to my nukes, along with that fun, fancy critical blast message, was more fun than hg or ha. I do intend to get them, as there are a number of situations where I am either primary healer for a group of tanky types or I am in a complete heal rotation or I *am* the cheal rotation that this would be incredibly useful. The fact that I can't crit TR/ a bit depressing, making the more stable % increase more important to me. Really, if at all possible I will use TR > NT. NT is nice and quick, but it hurts in the mana if it's the only one you use. But SCF has come in *very* handy for me, as I find in raids I nuke nearly as much as I heal, and often these tasks are interchangeable for me. I intend to spread points over these three areas, eventually maxing them all.

I just got sotw1, and my next purchase is MGB. In a raid situation, sotw cast with mgb can REALLY make a difference, especially if you have more than one sotw capable druid. It can delay the need for cheal long enough for the first cleric to cast to not instadie. It can also keep an entire group standing in a pretty nasty ae without ever casting a heal. After MGB I will fill out sotw and go on to things I exodus and innate camo ;)

For me, exodus and innate camo, which had once been my top priorities, have become lower ladder items. I spend nearly every night raiding, and rarely is exodus a good thing on our raids. Also innate camo, while infinately handy, and high on my priority list (it's vanity, but after 60 some odd levels of following necros I *want* my own version of circlet of shadows), is not nearly as useful to my friends and guildmates as the sotw/mgb combo is. And the success of my raid > the 'convenience' items for me

I see uses in almost all of the available abilitities. In fact, only like...enhanced intelligence and first aid is not on my 'someday' list. I would love the additional resists available. I would love radiant cure (this is on the 'soon to be' list), I want all of the healing adept/gift AAs as well. Sooo...I have a lot of AAs still to get. I don't see that I will become bored with them any time soon. I do see that I need to get out some hard exp grinding while I can *very* soon. Those 9 points for MGB are gonna hurt.

At one point I tried to rank all of the abilities by when I would get them. Full time raiding has blown that ranking. I also find that my needs, and my guilds needs change over time as well. I'm looking to fulfill all of these now I'm only planning my points 5 at a time, adding to the end when I meet one of my goals.

12-23-2002, 05:01 AM
Thanks for the advice. I now think I'm heading toward Innate Enlightenment, as I always have KEI and 270 wisdom would certainly help the mana pool. At 42 AA points, I have most of the must haves, so I'm now working on the nice to haves. But again, my normal 'group' is my wiz wife and I, so I don't have MGB or raid oriented abilities.

01-07-2003, 09:56 AM
I've been splurging a lot since PoP XP has lead to a couple AA per day.

I've purchased the stat ceiling increases and some misc. wisdom to get to 355 wisdom. Very nice having a deep mana pool.

I purchased MC2 and MC3. Every little bit helps.

I purchased Fury 3 to go with SCF 3. You can see, qualitatively, the greater crits. Especially with the cold rain spell. (Someone asked above if you want to be a nuker, why not be a wizard? I can ask: if you want to be a healer, why not be a cleric? The answer, of course, is simple: I want to be a good nukers and a good healer, both. It's a matter of personal preference as to which way you lean.)

I purchased the third level of SoW because it is that unique a skill, and that useful. I purchased MGB to go with it. I am in the process of purchase the Reinforcement line, including mastery, in order to maximize the duration.

I purchased the third level of increased HP. Every little bit helps.

I have started with HA and the two combat avoidance/mitigation lines, just because two points is so easy to get. Not sure how far I'll pursue them.

I plan to max Radiant Cure soon. It has proven useful.

01-07-2003, 12:07 PM
For the record Jaylanna, i just got MGB for SotW basically. I have Run3, Regen3, SCM2, HG1, MC1, SCF3 + FoM2, Innate Camo, MGB, SotW2, WotW1, RC1, and i think thats it.

I love being able to MGB Wood, after i get SCM3, i probably will be going into SCR to extend its duration. I've had a chance to use it only about 3 times so far with so-so results, since it didnt make or break the encounter. I dont regret it though since it allows me to contribute to the raid as a whole more than anything else i have. Its really cool to see mass 'Skin turns to Bark' messages. Only pain is i have to remind people to keep a spell slot open if they want it :( I dont understand the long refresh time on MGB though, it should be like 30 min's or something, so imo thats the biggest downside for the 9 pts spent. Its also fun to do drive-by MGB POTG's in Nexus too.

I just got innate camo as well, but i keep forgetting to use it because "i just got it". Its convenient, but imo not as great as the hype, since every Druid i talked to said it was one of the best AA's we have. Its pretty good for convenience, but its further down my personal list if i had to do it all over again.

My list would basically go....

-SotW(only practical group heal we have)
-Exodus(allows you to try so many more things you wouldnt without it)
-Group cure(must have if you raid, and doesnt hurt in groups)
-SCF3(most high lvls are crit'ing all over the place now and crits improve your mana efficiency more than anything)
-SCM3(still havent reached this point yet, but gives you abit of security in being as mana efficient as possible)

(the rest is open for any order imo with WotW as last priority because it stinks)

And as stated, alot depends on playstyle. If you raid alot MGB would be much higher on the list. If you solo alot, maybe even Viscid Roots is worth getting.

01-08-2003, 03:00 PM
Avoidance skills are pretty nice. I am working towards Lightning Reflexes 5 and enjoying increased survivability at LR1 already.

I have HA2, and haven't felt a difference. I guess the main benefit is healing speed. I think specialization and SCM are more beneficial when it comes to healing efficiency. Cheals are timed to account for damage spikes, and emergency heals can overheal. HA only provides benefits on a subset of heals cast. I don't consider these points wasted, but I don't consider the skills critical either.

SCF and Fury of Magic are fun. Unlike heals, nearly all nukes hit for full damage unless you *really* like killshots. I've spent 21 points here, and will probably go back for FoM3 after Lightning Reflexes 5.

My best investments so far have been Run 3, SCM3, Exodus and Spirit of the Wood. Mental Clarity 1, Radiant Cure, Innate Camo, melee avoidance and the critical nuke skills didn't make the short list, but they're quite good also.

Tharn Boncoeur
01-21-2003, 10:33 PM
I've seen nothing mentioned about "Planar Power", adds 10 wis per lvl 61-65). What am i missing? Doesn't your Wis cap raise your mana pool?
Any info or links would be greatly appreciated :)

01-21-2003, 10:51 PM
It raises your WIS >cap<, not your actual WIS, unless you already have the gear to raise it.


Tharn Boncoeur
01-21-2003, 11:25 PM
Thank you, Tatankawd :)
Yes, I understand that. Isn't it something like 10 mana/wis to 60, then 6 mana/wis 61+?
It just seemed odd to me people didn't mention the ability to raise your mana pool which seems an awesome attribute to me.

01-22-2003, 03:58 AM
As I understabd it, Enate Enlightenment adds 10 to your wisdom cap, and Planar Power adds +5 (or 10, not sure) to all your resists caps. I have Enate Enlightnement (61) and with KEI my wisdom is 270.

Tharn Boncoeur
01-22-2003, 09:52 AM
Yes, leebster, i believe your right. As I see it, you get 10 x 5= 50 (Innate Enlightenment). 5 x 5= 25 (Planar power, which adds 5 to all stats incldg wis), and 5 x 5= 25 for automatically getting 5 upon each lvlg 61-65. This added would raise the potential cap to 355 wis at lvl 65.

My question is where does the wis to mana ratio change? (over 255?) And how could I calculate my mana pool? At 62 I have 295 wis, with KEI and items. Somewhere in the back of my mind i remember a wis/mana ratio that was something like 1wis=10mana up to 255 is it? then what is it after that? Btw i realize items with plus mana will also add to the mana pool.

Anyone have a link or info regarding this?

01-22-2003, 10:06 AM
Up to 200, 1 WIS = level/5 mana
Above 200, 1 WIS = level/10 mana

So if you are 60, 1 additional WIS adds either 12 or 6 mana.
If you are 65, 1 additional WIS adds either 13 or 6.5 mana.


01-22-2003, 05:44 PM
I had a long reply typed out but let me save you some reading time: exodus, innate camo, spirit of the wood, great investments.

SCM, mental clarity, healing gift: good investments.

Dire Charm: not worth it in my experience.

Tulas 63 Druid, Brell.

01-22-2003, 07:56 PM
Didnt read the whole thread...but I will list what I felt were great investments...

Runspeed: with sow/soe dispelled, this helps a ton, plus its great not going slow

MC1: cheap for 1ft (wouldnt spend any more points in it though unless you have extra)

SCM 1/2/3: very very good, and noticeable...saves a good amount of mana when you have to cast a lot in a short period of time.

Exodus: Obviously a very good spell for a druid.

Runspeed, MC1, SCM1/2/3, and exodus....those I would suggest for every druid. After that I would say its up to your type of play style.

Raiders might go for MGB, SoTW, and Cure.

Solo players might go for DC, Mellee avoidance skills, channeling, and Innate Camo.

Group players might go for SCR +SCRM, SoTW, SCF +FoM or HG/HA depending on prominent role.

After the first bunch I noted above I consider the rest totally dependant on your play style.

01-23-2003, 05:32 AM
The way I look at getting AA is like this.

1) Get SCM 3 above all others as soon as you can.

1a) Also at this point you could be <strong>considering</strong> Exodus and Innate camo. Where not everyone likes these abilities I would swear by them.

2) Then get the ones which you as a player should need. For example. If you always heal then go towards the HA / HG area. If you always nuke then SCF etc. Also MC level 1 for 2 points is always worth it.

3) Then look at the "good to medium" abilities. Now this is where it starts to get to personal playing perferences.

Some examples can be...

If your a raiding druid then you may want to look at getting SoW, MGB, RC all three are very usefull on raids.

If you hardly raid then look more at grouping abilities. Even things like Dire charm may be of use to you at this point. SoW is still good in groups for example in those more desperate times. Even WoW isnt bad if you dont midd recasting it over and over.

Soloing druid may want to look at maxing their MC to be more efficent and also nuking abilities if they quad alot. Even again SoW has its uses but not quite as much or even looking at the Roots abilities.

If you do all three then your going to need to balance things out more. This is the way I did it and the way I decided on this was to look at each ability and amount of points it cost. Then looked at how much that ability would increase my ability as a druid to perform..if its minor then I would not get it at this point....for example. RC 1 is vey much well worth getting.....but RC 2 is only imho a small increase in ability therefor for me it can wait.

4) Then look at trying to round your abilities (looking probably at 100-150 AA areas at this point). You should at this point have maxed out your important to you abilities if it be nuking, healing or even tanking. Then try to start to spend AA on your cheaper abilities for example more HP is always good so look at CS. You may have low wisdom and want to top that up by putting points into wis or you may have lots of wisdom but its not being used to planar power or innate enlightment for a couple of levels just to increase that manapool.

Remeber these abilities reflect how YOU as a player play. You can get advice on these boards all day however you at the end of the day need to decide on how you play your character. One option may be perfect for one person however a rediclious choice for another because one may never raid and the other always does for example. (MGB is a good example here).

5) Then you should be looking around the 170-200aa mark at his point. Finish off maxing those abilities which you only got maybe level 1 or level 2 at. Remeber you got these abilities because they were good to round your druids abilities. So start to max them out because why did you pick them in the first place?

6) Then your looking at getting the less than needed AA points. I believe your looking around 250-300AA mark when your doing this (Ive not got there yet so dont know).

Remeber its all personal choice...dont pick something because someoen told you to do it (well other than SCM 3). Theres no right or wrong choice its how you feel you need to increase your ability of yourself as a player.


01-23-2003, 07:48 AM
Nice breakdown Tils, and it cant be emphasized enough whats best is different for everybody depending on their playstyle.

Just some added points that havent been mentioned...

-I'd possibly hold off on HA, since Improved Healing IV items are out there if your guild can raid 1st tier rares in POP. Items with nice stats too imo. Definitely not too hard to get if you can get a few high lvl groups together, and much easier than it was trying to get the Underfoot idol(IH3 item). The item saves you 12 aa points, i believe thats what max HA costs. You might kick yourself if you max HA, then get an IH4 item.

-I really think the added bonus for buff durations with SCR is a waste. DS and Regen mana saved cant amount to all that much, and honestly i wouldnt notice having to DS every 10 min's as opposed to having to DS every 15 min's or something like that. Plus, horses really make up for worrying about petty mana savings like that, at least i dont worry about every scrap i can get anymore like i used to. I worry about aggro more than anything, mana is usually a non-issue with horse, MotS, KEI/Tranquility, and sometimes SP or manasong. I'm still debating to myself whether spending all those AA pts to max out SCR, then go with mastery is really worth adding 2 extra ticks to SotW. Very tough call.

-I really wanna go ND and get my hp's as high as i can. High hp's is Godly imo. Cant seem to find much info on it though, does it continue to increase hp's with Sta added items? or just from base sta and hps? How much added hp's are you getting with ND1, ND2, ND3?


01-23-2003, 10:08 AM
Cleric in my guild got the elemental arms last night, and said his heals were being affected by Marr's Gift (25%+ to heals) AND his HA points.... so he had some big spam heals =)

01-24-2003, 03:12 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>How much added hp's are you getting with ND1, ND2, ND3[/quote]

Well i started around 2800 or so base now im 3200 so i guess 400 or so hp with maxed ND...but it does vairy...maybe a little less than 400...well around that area.