View Full Forums : Grouping with clerics
11-26-2001, 12:54 AM
I know what it's like to be a back-up healer (30 druid) and a main healer (31 cleric). Until my cleric hit 24, I had no problems with back up healers in the group. When I received greater healing, the problem began. Before I get into this, I see this issue from both sides as I stated above. Since I am in this situation, I feel I am qualified to post this advice. If you disagree, by all means, please say so.
Up until my cleric received greater heal, I never thought about throwing heals at bad times on my druid. I just did it. I have heals just like they do and I should be able to throw them whenever I see someone is 2 bulbs or below. Once my cleric had g-heal I quickly saw the error of this mentality. From 24-29, clerics outheal everyone hands down and greater heal at that leel range heals anywhere from 1.5 to 3 bulbs of life. It was so annoying when a back-up healer would cast regular healing when someone dropped to 2 bulbs simply because I refused to cast g-heal until they hit half life to save mana by preventing overflow. I tried to explain this to many a druid/sham I grouped with, but it never seemed to sink in. They kept cutting off my heals or healing witihout announcing it causing one of us to WAY overheal doing the thing I detest the most, wasting mana. At 29, the alts do get g-heal but even then, clerics are better healers getting the 15% bonus making them more mana proficient.
That's their job, let them do it. Believe me, there are LOTS of things that especially druids can do that clerics cant. Druids are an asset to the grop even if a cleric is present. Snaring, nukes, sow, strength buffs, etc all make a druid a valid team player. My advice is do not cast heals if you're grouped with a cleric UNLESS someone sinks below 2 bulbs of life. In those cases, it is perfectly acceptable. If the cleric yells LOM, then is another time to announce that you will do the heals until they regain some mana. Remember, the prime objective is to keep the group running smoothly. When I'm playing my druid and I'm grouped with a cleric, I immediately yield the heals to him/her and send them a /tell asking them to let me know when they are LOM and I will step in until they are ready to go.
Post 34, clerics are masters of healing. Superior Heal does 600+ recovery for them. Something back up healers won't see for a long time. Again, please don't think I'm ranting or gung-ho clerics rule and the backups should know their place. I'm just saying use your skills as a druid (addressing druids primarily since I'm posting on our board) and let clerics use theirs. The group will be much better that way.
I realize my experience is limited to that of an early 30s druid and cleric so if any of you elders out there disagree with what I'm saying, I'd be glad to hear your side of it.
Thanks for reading my long post!
11-26-2001, 03:38 AM
Id rather "suffer" through a couple hundred of wasted healing points, than to have that enchanter or heck, any other class, get killed. Especially when clerics start using their HoT spells,
(Ive had this problem before...Renux nailing you for 220, and youre down to 2 bubs, and the cleric hits you with Celestial Healing....)
Now, if you made a hotkey, saying something like "Healing %t with Greater Healing" when you started casting, that might help. Better to err on the side of caution than to spend the 700 or so mana youll need to rez somebody =)
11-26-2001, 03:57 AM
there is no way I let a chanter get below 2 bubs of health, when he gets hurt I heal him even if it is only 100HP
And I don't really blame those druids ) at level 29 they heal almost just as good as clerics, at like 35+ clerics start to be the only 'real' healers
11-26-2001, 04:17 AM
I agree it is better to overheal than to underheal. There is not a lot of hp in two bubs for an enchanter.
Definately there needs to be some communication in the group if you feel that the backup healer is inappropriately healing. It really depends on the makeup of the group. It could be that the backup healer is lower level and is getting full resist on his nukes. DS does not cost that much mana so he might be healing just because he is fm and wants to contribute to the group.
Kayleigh, level 54 druid, Tholuxe Paells
11-26-2001, 09:27 AM
this is what i say to clerics who "cop a 'tude" about me healing:
think of it this way, its MY mana being wasted, not yours, and i dont mind cause i got plenty to spare =)
macro messages help a ton. i duck out a lot of heals when im with clerics, because if i see that message, i know they got it. if i dont see it, i heal. sometimes i dont bother ducking, cause its more trouble than its worth to try and save a bit of mana. druids really shouldnt be running low on mana much unless they are doing heavy healing duties. with potg, mask/form, FT1, c2, i regenerate tons of mana and am usually at 75%+ after fights (except high end single targets). and if i always waited until clerics asked me to help heal, there would be a lot of dead bodies scattered around norrath that arent there now.
working WITH the cleric is the best thing to do. if the druid is consistantly at 75 after the fight, and the cleric is consistantly at 40, then have the druid do MORE of the healing. you want to maximize your potential, that means you dont want the druid sitting there for 2 mins at FM while the cleric finishes medding. a druid can help this out by listening to the mana checks, and seeing how much their cleric is using on average. adjust your mana usage accordingly.
and enchanters *never* get below 4 1/2 bubs without getting a heal, ever. at least not at the high end where common mobs hit for 200-500, and not when grouped with me. even a druid can keep an enchanter alive when he's temporarily tanking mobs in tov or st, but not if you wait to heal them.
11-26-2001, 12:09 PM
there are 2 charaters you should heal: the enchanter and the cleric. if the main tank gets below a certain level, heal them as well. at higher levels, that is about 1 bub. you can stand and start casting ealier if it looks like the health is falling fast...
some things to keep in mind.
1. slow spells take time to cast and IF the enchanter is mezing and slowing, they first mez then slow generally
2. slow are incredibly effective, ive seen a warrior pull and once the mob is mezed and a shaman slows, they lose no more hp.... this due to regen, mark of karn spell and garou spell and blood point weapons.
Also, once you get to about lv 45, things get better and players understand their role in eq. a true noob wont. it takes patience to explain how things work...
11-26-2001, 01:43 PM
Opinion of someone who has played a 55 druid, and who now plays a 54 cleric. I used to not understand this, either. All it really took was some time on the other side to see their (now my) point:
The way I think about healing responsibility is this: the tanks are my respsonsibility, the casters (including me and themselves) are the back up healer's responsibility, and the enchanter is EVERYONE'S responsibility. In my opinion, NO heal on an enchanter is wasted mana. Heck, I have cast cel heal on an ench at full health, just in case the mob aggroed them.
When a back up healer starts healing the tanks at 2 bubbles (usually right after I announced I am casting complete heal), and my usually efficient CH at 1 bub becomes inefficient at 3 bubs, yes, I get irritated. The fact is, it makes me feel like you don't trust me to heal properly. This would be the equivalent of me telling you to snare on every single mob, as if I didn't trust you to do your job. See, that's the way you have to look at it. When you heal a tank with a cleric in the group, you are basically telling that cleric that they suck as a healer, and YOU are going to make sure the tanks don't die. Healing casters? Sure, like I said, I think that's the back up helaer's normal job. Healing enchanters? Heck yea, the enchanter should always be at full hitpoints, because they WILL get aggroed, and their AC and hitpoints suck. But really, healing a 55+ tank with chloroblast is like the cleric trying to keep them alive with remedy. It just doesn't work. You would be better served using that mana to debuff or nuke.
Please don't act like you don't trust me to do my job. I'm liable to take it personally.
"Please don't act like you don't trust me to do my job. I'm liable to take it personally."
Clerics are not gods.
Some clerics like to CH at half red, and some at 2 pixels. Some at just the right time.
Us druids just have to figure you guys out as we go.
Like was said(even by you in a way) an overheal is better than an underheal.
And the post about communication is the most important part. Just toss the cleric a tell that you will be there for backup, and if you overheal it is your mana lost not theirs. Clerics are touchy about mana wastage.
11-26-2001, 04:47 PM
Let me clarify...
Yes I agree with you 100%, healing mana is never wasted on an enchanter. As a matter of fact when I'm playing the cleric I make special allowances for a chanter like changing my "on me" hotkey to please mez %t so the tanks can stay on their mobs preventing them from agroing on the chanter.
I think my original point got missed somewhere so let me give an example. When I first got g-heal at 24, I had this happen time and time again, not just once in a while, and it didn't just waste the alts mana, it wasts the clerics:
The meleer is down to half life, I stand to throw a greater heal, and automaticly the b/u healer throws one right before mine brining the person to 2-2.5 bulbs of mana. That happened constantly. Communication or no communication. I have hot keys that says "incoming heal on %t" but it didn't do any good.
My point is not to flame druids, I'm not doing that at all, my main is a druid, my point is that there is a whole other outlook here. Yes clerics are touchy about mana because their mana is almost always on the low end and unlike the druid/shammy who are proficient at other things, the cleric has to med almost constantly for heals heals heals! Of course I would want that mana to be well spent. Not saying that wasted mana doesn't happen, just saying that it shouldn't happen alot.
The earlier poster was 100% right about complete heal. It's a whole lot more efficient to use c-heal at 1bulb (tank/half-breed) than it is to use it at 3. Instead the cleric could be using a much less costly heal to top the person off.
Healing is a clerics life. If someone dies because I'm oom as a cleric, I take that as my responsibility and wonder how I could have *saved* mana to prevent this from happening. This isn't a huge deal at lower levels (up until lv 20ish) because clerics are a bit underpowered anyway but when they start getting the big heals, it matters a great deal.
11-26-2001, 04:50 PM
...and yes, it is an issue of trust as stated earlier. However if casters are say below half life (excluding chanters of course) and tanks are below one bulb, by all means throw that heal! Everyone gets distracted from time to time, even a cleric :p
11-26-2001, 06:34 PM
Not sure if I'm missing it but couldn't figure out how to edit on this board.
In my post before the last one, the example specifically, I made a type-o.
The tank is down to half life, I (the cleric in this example) begin to cast g-heal and right as I get it off I see a back-up's regular heal hits brining them from say 2.5 health to 3.5 health thus causing overflow. This was at mid 20s mostly when g-heal did more healing bulb wise. Once I get superior heal at 34, I'm sure I'll be back to this problem again with backups casting g-heal on tanks right before my s-heal hits.
Again this is not to flame backups I can't say that enough. My original intent was to try to bring this to everyones attention in the hopes of understanding the other side of the coin.
11-26-2001, 07:08 PM
Once you hit your 40s and 50s you won't have problems with druids healing because druid healing sucks at higher levels. They can blow all their mana on gheal/sup heal and keep the tank alive through a hard fght, or the cleric can blow 30% mana on 2 cheals and be ready for more.
This, incidentally, is actually a problem because as druids see their healing power dwindle they get discouraged and sometimes don't heal at all, letting a tank die. Once the cleric starts a CH they're locked into it for 10 seconds, and if a mob flurries, enrages, or another one adds the tank can be dead before those 10 seconds are up. At times like this a chloroblast or 2 from the druid are what saves the day and they're what the cleric depends on - has to depend on - to buy the CH time to land.
Basically, what it all comes down to is first, the druid trusting the cleric to do hit job and not overheal him and second, the druid being on the ball and saving the tank when his backup heals are needed.
11-27-2001, 12:44 AM
I've grouped many times with a Cleric and I've many times been the only healer, and I know how frustrating it is for someone to step on my toes, in other words do what I should be doing. Therefore, every time I'm in a group or on a raid with a Cleric in the group this is what I tell them, and they normally agree:
1. I top off the main tank's health during a fight so the Cleric can be medding and at Full Mana. If the tank's health drops below two bubbles it is the cleric's responsibility to hit him with Celestial or Complete, as he sees fit.
2. I heal the casters. Period. Any caster gets a dent in their HP and I'm on top of them with Sup heal. The Cleric knows if he gets aggro I'll be healing him.
3. If things go really bad (chanter gets killed and we have two mobs or more to deal with) Cleric deals with Main Tank and I deal with Secondary Tank.
As the mobs tend to hit a lot at higher levels and the damage shield on the tanks counts as damage done by them and not me, then a heal at half health, even if the tank is on a different mob, will not cause aggro. An early heal will aggro you, and trying to heal another while seeing your health drop about 1 bub of health with each attack is not a nice sight, and quite hard to do regardless of your Channeling skill. You gotta stay alive to keep others alive. If someone has to die that is the tank, because if any of the casters die, especially the healing ones, rest assured the tank or tanks won't last long if the situation has caused both healers to bite the dust. It is also true that without a tank the casters are also as good as dead.
4. Should both the Cleric and myself cast a heal at the same time and on the same player, "I" duck. My heal is less mana efficient, therefore I should save it up. Normally this occurs when either you think the Cleric has gotten distracted or both tanks are losing health. Getting clear who will interrupt the heal saves both from ducking and letting the tank snuff it.
Other assorted tasks:
Even if the mob does not run, SNARE IT!
I was in Siren's Grotto the other day, for my first time, and someone in my group said nothing ran. I had snare up, but I didn't cast. We got trained with a couple Sirens. We dealt with them, until one began running. I was healing at the time so couldn't snare in time. Needless to say she escaped and brought a few friends with her. I felt guilty because I should have snared, but I was told nothing ran. Then I was told they never hunted sirens... So, just in case, Snare it... The hunt went horribly from then on, and trying to get back to our initial spot was almost impossible.
DS is a must, Skin for yourself only (If Cleric is handing out Symbol), SoW, Str (if no shammy in group), and then your fav debuff or nukes. Pack Chloro also.
Clerics and Druids and Shammans should learn to work together, because they can heal, and that is one of the most important line of spells in the game.
Ciao for now!
Araxx - 52 Wanderer
Did you die?
No, I'm a Druid, I don't die, I just get chased a lot.
11-27-2001, 02:28 AM
When it comes to something like this, I think some people can get a little serious about things that... don't really matter too much. A lot of people are concerned about being 100% efficient all of the time (I'm like this half the time). This pertains mana usage, pulling, group makeup, etc. Now, Verant gave Druids and Shaman healing spells for a reason and I don't see any reason not to use them; even with a cleric in the group. It doesn't really interfere with you directly and it certainly isn't killing the group. As I see it, as long as you're having fun/not dying, it's all good.
I heal while I group with my cleric bud (he's 51, I'm 47) and I know he can do it better, but I never thought I might be insulting him. I heal my party if I feel afraid that they might die, not because I'm nervous he won't do a good job of healing. Of course, I can't see into the head of every druid or cleric and know what they're thinking, I can only give my personal opinion.
The point as I see it is to have fun, not maximize or min/max everything you can, and that's what I try to achieve.
11-27-2001, 04:33 AM
"The point as I see it is to have fun, not maximize or min/max everything you can, and that's what I try to achieve."
Well said. Have fun and do not worry about mana efficiency too much.
Let me throw this example out. I sometimes heal the enchanter on full health. Usually this is on a pull and when mez gets resisted. The reason is that heals are a taunt as well and it helps the enchanter out by quickly getting the mobs off their back and allowing them to quickly get control of the situation. Mana efficient heal? definately not. Effective strategy? i would say so.
Kayleigh, level 54 druid, Tholuxe Paells.
11-27-2001, 07:33 AM
If youre healing your chanter to get aggro, and hes at full health...use a RFS instead on the mob...lots more aggro, quite alot less mana =D
11-27-2001, 10:29 AM
I agree with Kralec and besides, why want the mob on you? so you can not heal anymore? what if the cleric gets agro after that and he dies, cause you took the mob of the chanter :p nobody would notice, but I would feel bad (I know this won't happen much, but still)
11-27-2001, 11:05 AM
Soandso tells the group, 'who are we gonna get to replace the guy leaving?'
Geneze tells the group, 'get Araxx. He's good.'
Very well said. That's exactly the way I used to operate when I played my druid in a group. You are the kind fo druid that clerics WANT in their group.
BTW, ego is an integral part of the human psyche, and nothing to be feared :)
11-27-2001, 12:00 PM
"besides, why want the mob on you? so you can not heal anymore?"
If you think I am tanking for the entire fight then you are mistaken. I do not necessarily want the mob on me, i just do not want it on the chanter when he is trying to get crowd control. Let me ask you this,
Why do you want the mob on the enchanter?
I usually use the heal method on a pull. I start my heal when i see that the chanter is getting hit. Heal is better than RFS to gain agro because it does not break mez. If mez goes through then great, i can either duck out of the heal of if it is too late then the chanters health gets topped up. Those robe classes get max hit a lot. They do not have high AC or hp.
Who are you going to depend on to get mobs off of the chanter? Tanks? anyone who ever played warrior know that taunt does not recycle that fast.
11-27-2001, 03:28 PM
I think the reason that "backup healers" tend to heal with a cleric in the group, is because in the early years, we all have the same healing spell. Druids and shamans are actually more wanted for a main healer at these levels because of SoW. (I see this from all sides, main is a 57 cleric, I have a 32 shammy, and a 22 druid) I can remember being a young cleric, with a druid in my group. He had a message when he healed, so I would interrupt mine, and nuke :)
Lords of Belterra
11-28-2001, 01:57 AM
------Heal is better than RFS to gain agro because it does not break mez-----
RFS doesn't break mez :)
and I don't want the mob on the chanter either, but with chloroblast I don't get the mob of the chanter :) maybe if I would use superior healing, but that sounds silly to me to use that :)
and another thing, the chanter just stuns and mezzes, you rarely see a chanter die cause of 1 mob while a druid is healing
11-28-2001, 04:56 AM
Everybody wants to feel important in the group. That's natural. To feel important, most people need an assigned set of duties - not all - some do not have this need. It also depends on the person who is playing the character - are they having a bad RL day or something else? Do not forget you are dealing with a human with feelings.
For clerics, melee, and enchanters their job is so well defined and ingrained in the EQ psyche that knowing their job is never a problem. Not that I agree with it completely. but that's another topic. However, for the support classes, especially the druid, their role can drastically change based on the makeup of the group.
There are clerics that ego trip about heals, just as there are wizards that ego trip about that DD killshot rather than snare.
Both types of players have the same problem, feeling overconfident if their abilities. No matter how good the player, they are setting themself up for failure.
The key is communication, if the cleric won't talk about whom they are going to heal, then you must initiate it. Ask if you can top-off heal. Ask if you should heal the overblasting wizard or the over aggroing ranger. Ask when cover heals are needed for the warrior waiting for CH to hit.
To the clerics that get upset when a druid cover heals, get over it. Unless your group is in a critical fight, mana management is almost never a problem. People can and do survive much worse.
The above points are for pickup groups. If you are in a group of friends (RL or otherwise), the need to feel important is not solely based on a role within a group.
withered druid of 55 seasons
55th level cleric
11-28-2001, 05:20 AM
Overheal is always better than taking a chance ..
I've done alot of main healing (and only healer in groups)
and done pretty well i think =)
(I laugh at warriors who insists they need a cleric for certain camps)
but that 's off topic ehhe
I think the key is how well you know the cleric u are grouping with
FAct is .. I've been told off by clerics (from my guild nonetheless) when I toss a heal at a someone when warranted or so I believe ehhe
on the other hand .. I've been deeply appreciated by clerics because I've toss heals at the best moments .. face it .. even with the best clerics .. Cheals just doesn't land in time sometimes .. (be it lag or otherwise) and that's when a chloroblast comes in handy ... i usually start off chloro when i see any melee goes to 2 bubs
casters i just heal when they lose health automatic ..
if two melees are taking dmg at the same time .. I will leave the main tank to the cleric and heal the other melee
those are the rules I generally operate by ...
and trust me .. I've saved alot of people's ass doing that ;)
and as for pulling off aggro off chanter (or any one like cleric)
triple snaring a mob works wonders eheh
if there's no rogue .. i would just triple snare .. get aggro and root it =P
Hierophant of Karana
11-28-2001, 05:39 AM
During the end game, it's just insulting to have another character tell me what is and isn't efficient for an exp group. I got news for you....whenever I am sitting at FM, I'm going to start throwing out mana at every opportunity. I don't care if it's heals, refreshing buffs, or throwing high mana DDs. I know how to play my class, and I know what my limitations are. Trust is the hardest part of this game. I trust anyone to play thier class correctly until they prove otherwise.
Cleric throwing DD's or meleeing? Not a problem. I assume this person knows what they are doing, and trust them to switch to healing when it is appropriate.
As far as druids throwing out those heals......why does it matter? I mean, it's helping the person who needs the heal, isn't that the goal?
Mana effecient groups tend to be more frustrating than any other group I have been in. The epople complain and nit-pick about EVERYTHING. Everyone stetches thier limits to the max, and usually we pay the price. That situation is most noticable with clerics since they are the kings of making the most outta thier mana by waiting until the tank is 1 bub until they heal, and barking at any other preist who tries to help.
Oh yeah, I also like people that complain when you heal them. "Don't heal me unless I'm 2 bubbles." Yeah, screw you buddy. I'm not going to sit here at FM and then have to dump 80% of my mana on you when the MoBs start pounding your ass into the ground and then not have time to throw a snare because I'm too busy keping you alive. Just trust me to take care of my duties and contribute what I can, whenever I can. Do not limit me or my class, because the group will suffer in the long run. Trust me.
11-29-2001, 01:25 AM
Thanks for the compliments. :) *blush*
I do consider myself a good player, but it is something different for someone else to tell you it. :)
I learnt my grouping skills at about level 25, and I've refined them a lot since. I got a bit overwhelmed with the high level grouping skills required, but it can all be done in fun and be effective at the same time. I like to crack jokes and lighten up the atmosphere, and sometimes, after hitting my 'Superior Healing on %t.' hotkey I sometimes add: 'Or maybe not /duck /gate' :P Just for the fun of it.
Last Kael raid I went to, while we were waiting for the Main Puller to bring in a Giant, we would all duck and walk around in circles around those medding... It was quite funny. Then suddenly we would get a pop and everyone was at battle stations.
Effectiveness and mana efficiency can still be obtained without dropping the fun. If I wasn't having fun I would have quit already. This is, after all, a game... ;)
Ciao for now!
Araxx - 52 Wanderer
Did you die?
No, I'm a Druid, I don't die, I just get chased a lot.
11-29-2001, 02:41 AM
I offer this for perspective. For groups felling like they have to have a cleric.
The other day I am at the Observer camp in Chardok. Group makeup is 55 cleric, 56 warrior, 55 shaman, 54 enchanter, 53 paladin, 54 druid.
Nice group eh? I can tell you straight out, I (cleric) was not needed at all. I frequently let the warrior fight consecutive battles at 2 bubs or less health just for excitement. The reason is the shaman. Get a good shaman in the group that slows everything in their path, and healing is less of an issue. That and regrowth on the warrior and almost no heals are needed. The group could of fought almost as fast without the cleric there. Most of the time I used my mana for DDs. If there had been another druid there, that would of been better.
Just wanted to toss that out for people that feel they HAVE to have a cleric. Yes, for some places and fights, clerics are needed. But there are many many places where druid healing is just fine, in some cases better because of all the other stuff they can do. Think outside the box. The 'have to have a cleric' mindset drives me crazy sometimes.
withered druid of 55 seasons
55th level cleric
11-29-2001, 03:31 AM
Menyena that mindset drives me crazy too. :p Especially casters who think they have to be in a cleric group (on raids) heh
The clerics in my guild love having druids in their group on raids. I never wait long after joining the raid before getting an invite. (sometimes they fight over me lol) The fact is, between RG and backup healing and topping off, druids save their clerics a ton of mana, which speeds up the raid (or group) with more pulls.
Clerics who ego trip about heals drive me nuts. Some would rather be lom than let a druid help heal because theirs are more mana efficient. Fortunately I don't run into many of these people any more.
11-29-2001, 11:33 AM
Communication is key.
If the main tank in my group is at one bub of health and the cleric has not announced any kind of heal, I am casting a heal on the tank.
It's that simple. No disrespect on the cleric at all. Just announce the heals and I back off. :)
I understand that sometimes lag spikes, guild chat, etc. could cause the cleric to forget casting a heal or announce casting a heal. All in all, as long as players have good intentions, there should be no problem whatsoever. :)
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