Immunity, rampage, enrage, flurry, summoning.

When I first heard most of these terms they were something to be feared - a very unique ability that was possessed only by some of the harder mobs in the game. They brought something to the table that made the creature or zone more challenging. You feared this thing called Gullerback in the Burning Woods because he had this weird ability to summon one of your party members right into melee range. Only the very brave would dare try soloing him, and even groups had to be cautious when pulling him.

Now, everyone and their grandma knows how to summon. It's an accepted assumption that any mob over level 51 can and probably will summon.

The same thing has happened to the other skills - rampage, enrage, and flurry. These used to be cool mob skills that you'd only see on the scariest of mobs on Norrath. Now, every other exp camp has at least one mob that enrages, and pretty much all boss mobs will rampage or flurry - sometimes both! Not only does putting such extraordinary skills on generic mobs take away from the awe that the skills used to provoke in players, but it also shows lack of imagination on the side of the folks in charge of game mechanics. "Oh, this mob is obviously hitting too softly, better make him flurry to make up for it."

Immunity is a separate beast all together, but is riding in the same boat as the others.

Immunity, in my own personal opinion, has to rank up at the top as one of the worst mistakes ever made in EQ. Vulak should be immune. Gods should be immune. Emperor Shzrarararararara should be immune. Joe Mosquito in exp_camp in zone_x should not be immune.

Not to anything.
Not snare.
Not fire.
Not magic.
Not stun.
Not mez.
Not anything.

If you want to make a creature in Lavastorm, Skyfire, Plane of Fire fire resistant to something like fire, that's fine. Make it so that every fire spell lands for 2% of the total possible from that spell. Bump up mob's fire resistance to something insane like 1500FR - but don't just write off the spells as "immune." That's both insulting to the class and to the player behind the screen. "Immune" is nothing more than saying, "This zone was obviously broken, and this was the only thing I could think of to stop the exploits." "Your spell was resisted" - I can accept this. "The creature is immune to changes in movement speed" is just idiotic.

This has been a long-standing argument between SOE and it's player base, and with the various zone changes, introduction of new zones with new expansions, it's obvious that the argument is not being taken to heart. This is not a druid problem, these are issues that affect both meleers and casters alike. Classes are having their usefulness cut in half in various zones because entire spell lines become ineffective. Melee classes become less wanted because they cannot provide the dps needed because to be in range means to be hit and have to be healed.

These "features" of a mob are becoming mundane. They are no longer unique, exciting, nor impressive. Instead they have become annoying, bothersome, and down right unimaginative. These abilities should no longer be used as a Band-Aid to fix a zone. Not only does it usually fail to fix the problem within the zone, but it serves as a systematic sweep nerf of entire classes.

Yup.

I agree, completely.

<em>extremely</em> well stated.

I like to think about it in terms of diversity. Take a game with a huge diversity of classes and abilities - so far, so good. a huge number of tactics arises from this diversity.

then remove some of the abilities by making mobs immune. not good - the diversity of the system, the complexity of the set of possible tactics, has decreased. this is bad.

I remember the very first instance of these resistant changes (at least, I think it was the first).

Certain mobs were made completely (or very near completely) spell resistant. Wizards were immediately in an uproar, since spell damage was their primary ( arguably <strong>only</strong> ) ability.

SOE (or Verant back then) came back with a Lure line for Wizards.

How things have changed... with plenty more "resistant" mob dynamics in EQ, and still only a single lure line for a single class.

I completely agree.

Well put, sure.

I was actually thinking about this topic recently, given the new expansion and EQ2 just around the corner.

But I asked long ago, "Would you prefer 'smarter' mobs, or 'mobflated' mobs?"

And I think that the overwhelming consensus at the time from posters was that they did not want to have to deal with 'smarter' but weaker mobs.

Even the shelving of Project M, was due to complaints about mobs behaving like they should not.

I personally think that all that you mentioned are hacks. But I also think that the game is to far gone(in the Mobflation direction) to ever pull back in this game. And most players are comfortable with the status quo.

The difference between an NPC with 1500 FR and an NPC that is immune to fire is merely a matter of description. You will never be able to land a fire based spell on either of them.

Originally the developers had no tools to be able to make an NPC immune to snare, slow, whatever so all they could do would be to push the MR of the NPC up to levels where nothing magic based could ever land on it (basically "immune" to magic).

Later on it became possible to flag NPCs as immune to specific spells rather than just a blanket immunity to magic. To my mind this is better than simply making things "immune" to all magic.

As for the mudflation point, the game has been out for over 4 years now, and players have to expect to increase in power during that time - it would make for a very static and boring game if that werent the case.

To compensate for increased player power the NPCs have to be upgraded to match, so while a flurry was almost unheard of its now nothing special. Dont forget that Joe Mosquito in exp_camp in zone_x could probably slaughter the Kunark dragons without breaking a sweat.

I remember killing Gullerback 2-3 years ago (I forget exactly how long). I know I wouldnt be playing today if I were still being scared of Gullerback.

Yes, I agree - it's just the old one size (solution) fits all mentality. It shows lack of imagination (not a good thing in a fantasy game) and will eventually suck the fun out of the game.

I know you all think Shamans are these amazing DPS machines but...

This affects shammies too. There are so many disease/poison immune mobs since PoP that I'd say most of the shammies dots are useless in much of PoP. And, to my disgust, in Veksar too.

My rogue poisons are likewise useless.

Here's these things that are supposed to be part of what makes us balanced and worthwhile that are completely useless in sometimes nearly the entire zone!

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
But I asked long ago, "Would you prefer 'smarter' mobs, or 'mobflated' mobs?"
[/quote]

Good point.

It is my firm belief that EQ doesn't have AI. Rather, just a simple ruleset. Mobs don't have "choice", so to speak.

- The highest player on the hate list gets attacked
- A certain amount of damage enables summoning
- As soon as a special ability refreshes (ie: deathtouch) the mob will use that ability immediately
- CH'ing mobs will try to CH themselves when hurt a certain amount, until their mana is dry
- First 4 people on aggro are the 4 people on rampage list (not sure if this has been changed)

I could go on and on...

I think for them to introduce real AI would be way way too CPU intensive for their servers. So they come up with these new ability rulesets to incorporate.

The mobs aren't actually any smarter, and that's probably a good thing. If mobs were intelligent, they'd prolly take out all the clerics 1st thing, and ignore everything else until that mission was done.

Wyte

"I think for them to introduce real AI..."

I don't really think that it would be all that hard or intensive, really. Even coding to QuakeBot, or UTBot levels would be simple.

I mentioned Project M for a reason.
The intelligence would not even have to be artificial.

Would you go against (boss type) mobs that had a random chance to be controlled by a player? Just an off chance that once in awhile your mob is Mobdeflated(no summon, no rampage, no immunities, no million hps), but has a human(maybe even you) at the controls.

I think it would be cool, but I know that no one else would.

while the number of immune mobs is obnoxious, but they add an element of fun. and not all mobs over 50 summon.

Those of us that remember when the test server let you log in as a mob.

That was pretty fun.

I agree with the resist statement.. I have been saying it since Velious. Make a mob resistant is ok, make a mob require DEBUFFING before it can be hit is ok, but never ever make it "Immune."

I say to SoE : "Either remove the "immunity" or be fair with it... create mobs that are "immune" to weapons. The only way to kill these mobs is to spell-damage them down. Do this and I will withdraw my objection."

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>To compensate for increased player power the NPCs have to be upgraded to match[/quote]

Actually I don't agree with that entirely. The whole point of a game with character progression is to be able to build a character that eventually is very,very powerful.
The problem with not upgrading NPCs is simple if you look at it from the lower end of the game with its skewed economics and twinking. The equipment available now is 10 times more powerful than that which was originally in the game which of course makes the low level mobs trivial. It's too late to solve the problem tbh but unless a mmorpg can really nail the economics and twinking problem with a brilliant idea it will always be that way.

PS: So as not to wake up the deadest horse of all I must add that I do twink and enjoy it, I just think the game would have been better without it.

I'm 10 levels higher than Vox. Why can't I summon mobs? /wink

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>"I think for them to introduce real AI..."[/quote]What would you do if confronted by a raid? Kill the healers, debuffers, and pet owners - then sit back and pick through the rest? That sounds suspiciously like what already happens, except for the pet owners (an oversite).

Rule sets are there as part of the strategy of the game. If the rule set is too boring or cookie cutter, then it needs to be changed. That's probably why AD&D has 3rd edition rules, and EQ2 will mimic them in some ways. Now all that's left is to make mobs have a variable rule set to give them semblance of an AI.

Rolaque
Saryrn

/cheer

Have to agree. I remember sitting at the spider camp in Sol B when people were first attempting to kill Nagafen. I remember hearing the cries of the fire giants as they summoned people to kill. It always struck me that this was a <em>very</em> powerful ability as only the strongest mobs in the game had it. I was always horrified when we finally attempted Nagafen on our own that the fire giants would choose to summon me to slay.

The same went for Enrage, Rampage and the like. If you saw a mob doing one of these things, you knew he was bad news.

Fast forward to Luclin and beyond and you encounter these mob tactics on a daily basis. Summoning hardly seems threatening anymore when you encounter it in an exp camp or soloing. I'm so used to fighting mobs that enrage or rampage that I know what to do when I see the message. It's hardly a worry anymore. They liquidated these things.

The sad thing now though is that the only way they can make tough boss mobs anymore is if they pump up their hp a ton and their damage output and give them a neat AE. All mobs in the game basically fight the same nowadays - quad hits, kicks and bashes with the occassional enrage when the mob drops below 10% or summon when someone gets too far away.

No boss mob I know of even has "special" attacks anymore. You'd figure a mob like Rallos Zek, a god feared for his prowess in wars, would have a trick or two up his sleeve. Instead the warrior god has an AE. *shrug*

I think raid mobs, or even day to day mobs, would be a lot more threatening if different mobs had different fighting styles to adapt to. Most boss mobs have mastered the use of magic but fight exactly the same.

Well stated, Stormhaven.

In defense of SOE (omg), I think the list you gave represents the evolution of their attempts to balance combat, and keep it interesting. Each of of those abilities has a specific purpose, imo.

Summon - Can't solo the mob.

Rampage - Can't have 1 MT, 10 Clerics and 59 Wizards.

Enrage - Can't hit autoattack, sic your pet, and watch MTV.

Not sure on Flurry.

While the summoning thing irks me personally, I understand the reasoning behind the others. I <em>do</em> think the consistent use of these abilities is monotonous. Some could also have been implemented in a more interesting fashion. For example:

Enrage is just a poor man's version of DAOC style's. It requires active participation in combat. A better (imo) way to do it would be to give all melee combat discs that, when used on a monster in a specific state, produce more damage. Then you tune the encounter assuming that melee are using these discs correctly. Same general effect as Enrage, less PITA factor.

And maybe the PITA factor is the real problem. Instead of rewarding behavior (bonus for more tanks), SOE tends to punish it (penalty for not enough tanks).

Kunark has masses of summoning mobs. All of lower Seblis and deeper parts of upper are full of them. Anybody who fought there early Kunark remembers the mass of summoning spam as the messages were zone wide back then. You could tell how well a Trak fight was going by those messages and checking the classes of the names scrolling by. Used to be all 50+ mobs summoned but so few mobs were that high most didn't encounter them very often. It's not a new thing having tons of mobs summon.

As for AI, it's not an easy to solve problem. People have been saying AI is easy for 30+ years now yet I still don't have a fully intelligent robot to clean up my appartment. They have been adding better AI'ish things like the pathing system upgrade and the NPC spell usage changes a while back. Things generally path a bit better and make better choices in what they cast and when. Hopefully they continue to tweak things but I don't see a huge change as players would probably re-act negatively to anything major.

Holy hell! I so agree with you Storm, you really hit the nail on the head. These 'powers' that mobs have are both cheap and lame, a lazy way to solve a problem by SoE. In some cases they are only there to discourage or outright ban soloing. I know people will disagree and try to tell me there's other reasons(that don't really apply anymore) but come on. Here's the real rub and what you said that really hit home though: they aren't even LOGICAL. Nothing frustrates me more than things that aren't logical.

Fire based mobs that resist cold spells or visa versa isn't logical. In fact, fire/cold spells should hit every time and probably for extra damage against the opposite element. This was always most evident in ToV. It used to irk me to no end when I would cast Moonfire on a fire based wurm just to see it shrugged off. It doesn't make sense and it unfairly weakens what casters bring to raids against such mobs.

Runspeed immune mobs are the lamest of them all. Seemingly put in for no other reason than to screw over soloing classes(or just ones that snare or root for mob control) they are without a doubt the most pathetic of the 'cheating' powers. It's also the single most damaging mob power against druids. Not only does it screw over soloing but it also prevents us from getting groups for crowd control purposes, since we can't affect these kinds of mobs with root or snare.

Green cons being able to resist sucks too. These mobs should NEVER be immune to anything a level 65 casts unless it's a lower level boss mob and even then it shouldn't be totally immune. Same way with average mobs being able to land spells on a level 65. There's a lot of mobs that are pretty damn resistant just based on their level in this game and the players should get the same courtesy. Actually, no normal mob should be immune to the point where it makes a caster useless. That's not fair. Melees have no such worries. The dark elves in Hate come to mind as far as having this overinflated resistance. I don't care if their race DOES have above average MR, it should never make casters feel useless(much the same way the mobs in ToV used to make me feel).

Summoning also sucks but I can at least see design logic behind that one, if not real world logic. Players would have an unfair advantage if they could just sit back and nuke away without any repercussions. It would make a lot of boss encounters too easy. I do think too many mobs can do this now though so you have a point there also Storm. Bric points out that summon was put in to balance soloing? I don't really think so. This has come up before and I think there was some other reasoning behind it(perhaps what I stated above), but in the end it's soloing that takes the biggest hit because of it.

The other stuff like flurry, enrage, rampage aren't as big a deal because they can be dealt with easier(except for maybe flurry because it's pretty nasty, especially with how hard PoP mobs hit for). Here again though I agree that there's probably too many mobs that do these things.

The purpose of Flurry is to add spikes of damage for the healers to deal with. If the tanks AC is very high compared to the mobs attack, the damage the tank takes tends to be fairly consisetent and would thus be easy to deal with with a ch rotation with a long duration. By having it flurry, you need a shorter duration 'just in case' and thus make the encounter more difficult due to mana concerns.

I believe these various mob behaviors have been added to try to balance DPS classes without removing the various types of magic.

You want caster damage and melee damage to be similar DPS, so that both get invited to groups. But you also want melee damage to be higher than caster damage since melee need a lot more support (haste, AC buffs, and especially healing)... wizards merely stand back and don't get hit, so they don't need so much support.

Kunark tried the higher-melee-damage route, but it was getting to the point where people preferred four or even five melee classes in each group. The second, third (fourth, fifth) melees don't require as much healing as the main tank but still have high dps. Ok that didn't work, so caster DPS has been gradually catching up to melee dps, mostly through better mana regen since sustained DPS was the real issue. But they quickly ran into problems with kiting, root-dotting, and such, since casters can now maintain good DPS without needing buffs, heals, haste, and other support. They've been trying to seek balance with small innovations since then, coming at the solution hodgepodge from three directions:

First, summoning and unrootables to keep casters from totally avoiding the need for support. This succeeds not by reducing the efficiency or xp of kiting but by making it nearly impossible, a rather unpopular solution. Note that they're trying the opposite with charming -- reducing the efficiency and xp gained from it instead of making it nearly impossible. The 'less efficient' approach didn't work very well with DoT kiting and was eventually removed... it remains to be seen if charmers will find a way around their nerf the way kiters did by switching to DD and AE instead of DoTs.

Second approach is the large AE effects on almost every boss mob nowadays. This also accepts the equality of melee and caster DPS and increases the support needed by casters and extra-melees. It's really quite effective --rogues and wizards alike need healing, and in roughly the same amounts. Mobs that spawn during a fight can also be fairly effective, as they often go for the casters/healers before the tank types, and can be specifically positioned to attack those casters who try to hide from the AE around a corner.

Third approach is totally different: flurry, rampage, riposte, even small AE effects. This is to increase the support (healing and buffing) needed by the second, third, etc. melee in a group so that melee damage CAN be higher than caster damage. They've even made haste spells and atk buffs have much higher mana cost than AC buffs, which are mostly just for the one tank. If enough mobs do those things, and they work as intended, that might justify having melee damage noticably higher than caster damage.

There are other considerations that complicate the picture of course: level difference, resist rates, aggro, AE-stun groups, fast vs slow heals, and more I forgot. But I believe focusing on DPS as I have explains how we got all these illogical special abilities as they are today.

So far they've been chipping at the problem in all these little ways with no one comprehensive solution. Nobody's ever happy with a compromise. But I wouldn't want them to give up on the first approach, or the second, or the third. Is there a better idea? I can't think of it.

I'll go so far as to say the approach they took to fix charming was better than if they'd reduced the DPS of charmed mobs. BTW... sometime in the future they just might find a way to have kited and root-dotted mobs give 2/3rds xp just as they did with charming... then they might actually remove the root immunity and most of the summoning. I think that would be better than reducing the damage (or raising resists) on AE and DD spells. Sure we complain, but if it would get rid of the root-immune crap and keep our kiting-spells from getting nerfed, it'd be worth it.