Is SOE delivering on Last Month's Expectations? [Archive] - Everquest

AbsorEQ

06-05-2003, 09:50 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>It's only been a month but it appears they're delivering more goodies that they didn't preview than the ones that they did preview. So I'd give SOE low scores for that since we're grading them on fulfilling expectations that they set amongst the players.[/quote]

Panamah,

I understand that the goal of a site like yours is to be read. Ranting tends to get people reading more than just stating fact or actually being accurate. Fair enough. But, well, I'm more than willing to take you to task on your errors.

It's all about reading comprehension or, just as likely I suppose, a poorly written update on my part.

We have attempted to be extremely clear about these updates. There are three parts. One is an archive of past update messages. Simple enough. One is a listing of thing upcoming in the very next update. The other is a list of things planned for the future (meaning, not in the next update, but some time after that).

If I made that unclear, I apologize.

If not, then, while certainly your right to do so, I find it bothersome that you have decided to pick items from our list of things for the future and complain that they are not complete yet. Rather sad, if you ask me.

Of course, having been at this job for more than two years, and having run an EQ fan site myself for over three before that, I understand that responding to your methods only aids your cause by drawing attention to your site.

Do me a favor in return. Reply to this thread with one example of an item that we've listed as upcoming in the next patch that we have not delivered.

A

Stormfront

06-05-2003, 10:04 AM

Well atleast Absor wasn't too pointed this time :p

Absor, while I appreciate the effort SoE has put in with the new nifty changes to spells and things of that nature, we as a community still have some issues.

The PoP ZEM change (I won't call it a nerf until you have had a chance to explain) seems to only effect solo'ers. Solo'ing has been attributed to druid's as a class balancing ability, yet we are losing some effectiveness in this area.

While your grouping bonus changes are right on and commendable, I find myself asking how it will make it any more possible for ME to find a group. Exp modifiers only help if you actually can get a group to see them. As a generalist, the PoP group model (or atleast players' perception thereof) limit groups to cleric, slower, tank, and dps classes. How is it I am supposed to stop solo'ing and move to grouping (as is obviously the intentions of SoE) without any class defining ability that makes me useful in the current grouping model?

I'm not trying to be pointed either, these are serious concerns of mine, as I see my only source of exp being diminished, and I forsee alot of LFG in the near future.

Thanks for your time and consideration.

Panamah

06-05-2003, 10:21 AM

Actually, I was quite glowing about a lot of the things you did or are doing. But unfortunately most of the negatives were a mistake on my part. The newly posted Future Roadmap wasn't dated and I thought it was the one from May 9th. So when you look at it from that standpoint, most of the stuff hadn't been delivered... and rightfully so since it was brand new stuff. My error. Sorry, I've rewritten the article in light of that.

However, from the May 9th roadmap there are still 2 items that, as near as I can see, haven't been addressed: Melee balancing and reitemizing PoP zones. Maybe you're sneaking something into the patch that you haven't announced yet or perhaps you just haven't gotten around to it. Haven't heard anything from the test servers about it, so I'm assuming it just isn't there yet.

Still, you're delivering 3/5ths on your commitments in one month and I think that's actually very good. I'm not expecting you to do everything in one month, however SOE has had a history of setting expectations and letting people hang for a long time. Sometimes we've had expectations set and not had delivery on those at all (PoM revamp and a few others). However, I think that was mostly during the big personel changes.

I do see some very positive changes from SOE after the last year where things have been pretty wretched in that regard, IMHO. You are beginning to communicate with your customers about the state of the game, where it is headed and what is coming up next. Those are excellent changes. The last change, and this is the one I'm tracking, is how well you deliver on your committments. So far, I'm pretty impressed that you have tackled 3 of 5 in a month.

I think you'll see the rewritten article reflects that.

By the way, I don't write to attract readers. I write my opinion and try to point out postings or annoucements of interest to EQ players. I make no money off this site, in fact, it costs me money out of my own pocket to run it. But, I felt that the un-uber high level people needed a voice, and I took it on myself to try to be that voice. Sometimes I hit the mark, other times I probably miss wildly. But in the end, the opinions are totally my own. And the mistakes too.

Again, apologies for misunderstanding when the "Future Plans" article was posted.

AbsorEQ

06-05-2003, 10:25 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>The PoP ZEM change (I won't call it a nerf until you have had a chance to explain) seems to only effect solo'ers. Solo'ing has been attributed to druid's as a class balancing ability, yet we are losing some effectiveness in this area.[/quote]

True. Soloers in PoP will indeed have a decreased rate of experience gain in those zones. Nothing else changes, so if "effectiveness" = exp./hour, then your effectiveness will be decreased. However, it certainly will not be reduced enough to make soloing unviable. It will certainly be a useful option, and you will see good exp. doing so. We are also opening up the old world, so the number of available locations to solo AND group will increase quite a bit.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>While your grouping bonus changes are right on and commendable, I find myself asking how it will make it any more possible for ME to find a group.[/quote]

This ends up being the unanswerable question. Right now there are plenty of folks playing "solo" classes that have no problem finding groups. Either because they have made friends as they leveled, because they have an active guild or because of their overwhelmingly wonderful personalities.

These changes will make it so that a group will gain more exp. for adding just about anyone to thier group rather than excluding someone that they don't know or of a class that they, for reasons of their own ignorance, think will not aid their group.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Exp modifiers only help if you actually can get a group to see them. As a generalist, the PoP group model (or atleast players' perception thereof) limit groups to cleric, slower, tank, and dps classes.[/quote]

You're claim that groups are limited to those classes is your own view. I don't share it, and I would encourage you to recognize the value your character can have in those groups.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>How is it I am supposed to stop solo'ing and move to grouping (as is obviously the intentions of SoE) without any class defining ability that makes me useful in the current grouping model?[/quote]

I can't answer that, because I can't convince you that you can be a very useful member of a group. Until you believe that, I don't think anyone that you want to group with will either. A generalist is useful even in PoP groups.

A

Jigsaw

06-05-2003, 10:37 AM

Absor, why do you even bother? They are way too cynical to understand ANY well-reasoned arguements, including yours.

They love to bitch and whine about a game - but they need to wake up and see it as just that, A GAME! You only get what you take from it, so they should just try and take FUN instead of angst.

:)

AbsorEQ

06-05-2003, 10:37 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Melee balancing and reitemizing PoP zones.[/quote]

Both listed a Future Plans in the May and June future plans. Maybe we need to find a better way to clarify how this works to folks.

Future plans are things that we are going to do but do not have any sort of firm schedule for completion, either because they are too complicated to expect to get done real fast or perhaps the people needed to work on them are already working on something for the next update... or any of many other reasons.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Still, you're delivering 3/5ths on your commitments in one month and I think that's actually very good.[/quote]

Again… where did we not deliver?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The newly posted Future Roadmap wasn't dated and I thought it was the one from May 9th.[/quote]

I'll add a date.

A

Stormfront

06-05-2003, 10:39 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I can't answer that, because I can't convince you that you can be a very useful member of a group. Until you believe that, I don't think anyone that you want to group with will either. A generalist is useful even in PoP groups[/quote]

No sir. You misunderstand me. I am a damn good grouping druid. I know my strengths and I know my weaknesses. I am also a member of a large guild and I have many friends that I've made in the past 4 years. The point of the matter is though, I shouldn't have to depend on those relationships to get group when other classes simply log on and receive many random tells with offers for grouping. So, if my guild doesn't have any spots for me, I don't deserve to get a group?

You seem to think that I have some lack in confidence in my abilities when that is NOT the case. I have been main healer in MANY PoP groups and have lost VERY few people while they were under my watch. That doesn't change the fact that the perception across most servers is this (I've heard this HUNDREDS of times), "You're a druid, go solo, make phat lewts, cash and exp"

It just doesn't work that way Absor. Also, making groups with more spots available doesn't solve the fact that I have no NECESSARY skill to a group. I can nuke, yes, I can evac and heal, wheee. There are classes that do EVERYTHING I do, and better. Why would anyone settle for the generalist when they can get the specialist that is inevitably LFG in PoTranq?

Please don't chalk it up to me not having confidence in my skills because that just isn't the case.

Jigsaw

06-05-2003, 10:52 AM

Edited because I'll admit I was too mean the first time I wrote this...

Stormfront, I'm sorry I lashed out at you. Absor comes over to TDG to explain the changes, and you bitch to him because there's an overriding problem about a perception of what druids are like. He doesn't have to come to TDG to talk to us, and it is much appreciated by most of us. I would merely like to suggest that EQ is not a skill-based game, and that no matter how good you might be at pushing the same buttons over and over, you still need to work to create relationships in the game and a list of people who would rather have you than a random cleric. They aren't going to code a "druids don't suck anymore" attitude into people brains, which is what I believe you are asking for?

Pickup groups usually aren't much fun anyway, I don't understand why everyone wants them so bad.

Its a freaking game, enjoy it~

Stormfront

06-05-2003, 10:58 AM

Jigsaw-

You don't even know me. Don't make assumptions that you have ZERO warrant to make.

When you play on my server, and know about my rep and relationships, then come talk to me, until then, don't make assumptions you have no idea about.

EDIT: Removed the troll portion since Jigsaw seems to have come around ;)

Seriena

06-05-2003, 10:58 AM

Give me a break Jigsaw. :lol:

It is true that druids ability to solo was a big part of the priest balancing debates. Now that soloability is going to be less effective - by Absor's own admission. Of course there is going to be concern about where that leaves our class.

ZarrosLivinglight

06-05-2003, 11:09 AM

There are players, such as myself, who view druidic flexibility as a big win in group makeup. Druids can be a party healer if the cleric has to leave, and can add to DPS when a cleric is present. Druids can allow a group to get out of a dangerous situation quickly when a wizard isn't present. For classes like mine, druids make perhaps the best duo partners we could hope to find.

Player perception is the problem, not a lack of a specific class defining skill. Druids win by being able to fit whatever need a group may have, giving them more flexibility in filling in the rest of the group slots.

Panamah

06-05-2003, 11:09 AM

I understand you aren't necessarily delivering all of them in the next patch. That's why I said, getting 3 out of 5 of them in one month is pretty good. Couple that with the unannounced goodies and I think people are pretty happy.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Again… where did we not deliver?[/quote]

Unless the word deliver has a new meaning that I haven't discovered yet, it would mean in this case, actually implementing the roadmap. You "delivered" or will be delivering on June 11th, 3 items of the 5 items you mentioned on May 9th. So 2 of those items aren't going to make this patch, therefore they are undelivered, unfulfilled, unimplemented, whatever.

If you get them in the following month, then you'll have delivered 5 of 5. If you do them a year from now, it'll still be 5 of 5. I think people probably have the expectation that if we see something on the roadmap it's going to something you are implementing within a few months. Maybe it's something you might decide to dump or something that is just speculatively going to get looked at someday, perhaps. I think you're setting up your customers for dissapointments when those things don't get implemented. What looks like a tentative, "maybe we'll do this" thing to you often comes across as a promise signed in blood to the players.

Does that help?

Menlaiene

06-05-2003, 11:11 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Obviously, you are lacking the social skills to convince a group to give you a try to convince them you can help them~[/quote]
It's funny how my druid lacks social skills but my cleric and enchanter do not, although they are all the same person.

Jigsaw

06-05-2003, 11:19 AM

I edited my above post because I was too mean spirited.

Stormhaven

06-05-2003, 11:23 AM

Lets summarize this without anymore further name-calling.

Solo xp was nerfed, group xp was enhanced making group xp a much nicer sweeter looking pie. Core classes will always be preferred over generalists, thereby handicapping several classes in this grouping arrangement, druids being one of the affected classes.

While it is possible for druids to get a group, the problem lies with the time required to do so. While Everquest provides for a fun online experience, it is a well documented fact that not every player has 2 to 3 hours to spend online each night. Therefore, spending 20 minutes attempting to find a group is both boring and disheartening. Soloing, while extremely boring in itself, was an alternative method of getting xp while not having to spend enormous amounts of time getting a group.

Solo xp was nice because the risk vs. reward ideal provided the school of thought that while xp was more constant in a group, the risk was lower when comparing 6 people vs 1 person. Even though the 6 person group may be taking on mobs of significantly higher level than the soloer, the single-person soloer would reap the benefits of 100% of the xp rather than sharing that xp among group members.

People can put forth as many arguments as they want for class vs class debates, but what it really boils down to is time. Unless you have a set group of friends ready to go and willing to group with you on a consistent basis, you will have to find pick up groups, or groups with other friends. While I have seen clerics, enchanters, mages, wizards, warriors, etc, all picked up within minutes of announcing /ooc LFG, druids will normally be the ones sitting at the zone in waiting on /tells.

Romidar

06-05-2003, 11:24 AM

Interesting.

Imagine this situation:

I tell my customer at the beginning of the project that my plan was going to be "working on 5 deliverables in the near future."

After a month I send an update and say, "Here are three things I've finished and will be sending to you next week."

My customer responds, "OK, you delivered 3 of the 5 things you said you would," I don't think I could really argue about it. Saying, "I didn't say WHEN I'd be delivering the workproducts to you," just wouldn't come off very well.

Don't get me wrong - I'm pleased as punch over many of the changes that are coming, but you'll see a HUGE amount of skepticism across the boards. We've gotten pretty accustomed to having things promised without their ever happening OR having nerfs snuck in with what are supposed to be positive changes (many of us are waiting for the hidden thorn with the exeprience changes... like low dark blues yield light blue experience to a 65, something like that).

I'm very happy that SOE realized that parts of the design of PoP (flags, shrinking level range) were real mistakes, especially after your posts on this very board a few weeks after PoP was produced that claimed we were wrong on those topics. I'm pleased even more that they are willing to admit that they were wrong and do something to fix it.

However, consider giving a bit more detail in these future plans. I can point out two things that have spawned big, nasty threads:

1. Working on melee balance. Does this include hybrids or only "pure" melee? It's a hot topic with people arguing both sides.
2. Not providing a block skill to classes that wouldn't be making a trade off for using a shield. Some people have made the (I hope!) faulty assumption that this refers to KNIGHTS when 99% of us don't use them.

A lot of misunderstandings and apparently broken promises could be avoided by using more specific terms and examples. "Melee" class means something different depending on which board you happen to be on - warriors and monks, for example, do not consider paladins to be a melee class but I can say that paladins have a drastically different opinion.

Mystic (Dark Age of Camelot), for all of the game's faults, did a really good job of spelling out what was being changed, what was being considered, etc. Further, they solicited player ideas - they had (or have) team leads for the different classes who help them consider the ramifications of changes.

Maybe that's going on behind the scenes, but i sure doesn't seem that way. Changes show up on the live servers (like the broken bankers, when it comes to a few quests) that real players can identify BEFORE the game is even finished patching.

I do not mean to cast stones at the dev team - I work in IT and I have respect for anyoen who can even MAINTAIN such a game. Even on a relatively small transactional application, it's amazing how a small change can have big consequences that the development team couldn't foresee but an end user would immediately predict - I see it all the time.

What I just do not understand is why SOE has not seemed to avail themselves of the expertise of a handful of people on each class message board. One thing I commonly see is that the people who moderate/administer class message boards actually tend to be pretty objective - arguing against elements on their own board who clearly care only about the success of their own class and not about the game in general. On this board it is not uncommon to see someone propose that druids get a new ability and most of the rest of the posting populace will explain why that itsn't a good idea for class balance. I see that sort of thing on every board.

I can tell you that the vast majority of paladins (at least those who are active enough to bother posting anything) have a very short list of "grievances," but the overwhelming feeling is that SOE doesn't give a crap. These aren't "wish lists" they are problems that have been discussed, hashed and rehashed, and often have a great deal of analysis behind them.

Occasionally we'll see a change in the game shortly after a long thread exploring an issue and it sure SEEMS like someone read the thread - but for all we know it was a coincidence. It's becoming a running joke that a SOE rep will show up to defend the company (as in this case) or to promote a new web site/expansion. Yet when there are clear problems with the game that can be demonstrated (broken spells, nerfs that clearly should not have happened, etc.) we get resounding silence.

So, how about some fairness. There are reasons why people don't cut SOE much slack and much of it has to do with god awful communication.

Stewwy

06-05-2003, 11:25 AM

Come come now folks. I agree with Storm here. I play mostly as my enchanter and two box my druid or my wifes cleric because I do not like to solo, and my enchanter is much more needed in our groups. I keep track of the tells my enchanter gets because I look at that box mainly, and have a separate window for tells on my druid box so I do not miss anything in spam when I look away. To date Mezrin has gotten dozens of invites to places like CT, PoA, Hate, Tier 2 and 3 zones, etc. Stewwy has gotten 3 in the past 2 years since he hit 60. Same person, good reputation, and I play both toons very well.

My wifes gets tells daily on her 56 cleric for groups, and a little less often for her 61 warrior. As a matter of fact she will zone into PoN on her cleric and get 3-4 tells for groups upon zone in......Why is that? hhhmmm...I wonder....better heals? Rezzes?

Come on Absor and SOE how can you honestly come to a place like the Druids Grove and try to convince us the classes are balanced and the only reason we can not COMPETE for groups is because of our own lack of willingness to accept our class strengths??? That is just plain ludicrous!

You do not need to convince us!!!! It is the rest of the Norrathian community you need to convince through TRUE class balance and providing the druid with SOMETHING/ANYTHING that can let us compete and fulfill primary group roles IN THE EYES OF THE NORATHIAN COMMUNITY!

I rarely get this aggravated on these boards, but I find it insulting and wholey disheartening that SOE has completely missed the plite (sp) of the druidic community after 2-3 years of the druids saying the same thing.

tap tap tap tap tap

Is this thing ON!?!?!?!?!

Edit: Found my post too annoying and had to edit it.

Accretion

06-05-2003, 11:35 AM

Excellent post, Storm.

Absor,
Druids are very valuable group members because of their flexibility. However, the issue is that flexibility simply isn't as important in PoP as efficiency. Like it or not, the encounters favor a Healer/Slower/Plate Tank + 3 Max DPS model for maximum efficiency. Charm was a great equalizer for generalist classes that would otherwise be less than optimally efficient. It also allowed for small, non-traditional groups to thrive in PoP settings when specialists weren't always available. Of course, those combinations are not nearly as viable now. :mad: With the impending solo (PoP ZeM) nerf, Druids will continue to lose overall power (e.g. solo/group/raid ideal) as a class.

Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate the bump in healing we got last year, but like it or not Druids (and a couple of other classes) are simply not as desirable in most PoP xp encounters and could use some examination, even if it's not immediate.

Overall, I must give a thumbs-up to SOE on the outlook of this patch. I also give a thumbs-up to Absor being honest about the soloing nerf. Not that I like it or agree with it, but SOE calling a spade a spade is progress....;P

<img src="http://sun.he.net/~justin1/eq/sig4.jpg"/>
Magelo Profile (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=562742)

Loegan Wolfheart

06-05-2003, 11:37 AM

It's funny how my druid lacks social skills but my cleric and enchanter do not, although they are all the same person. 

It's those blades that come out of our skin - makes us look like a character out of Hellraiser and scares people off ;)

Stewwy

06-05-2003, 11:48 AM

Accretion wrote:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Overall, I must give a thumbs-up to SOE on the outlook of this patch. I also give a thumbs-up to Absor being honest about the soloing nerf. Not that I like it or agree with it, but SOE calling a spade a spade is progress....;P[/quote]

Yep I agree. Good patch. Good changes and the honestly is good. Communication is always a good thing even if we don't like what is being said all the time.

Stormfront

06-05-2003, 11:56 AM

For the record, I was NOT attacking SoE or Absor. I tried to make my posts well thoughtout and worded. I made sure to not come off as bitter or whiney. They were questions and concerns that were as direct and straight forward as I can make them via written communication.

I appreciate it when Absor interacts with us, and I feel it goes a long way towards helping SoE/player relations. You'll note that anytime Absor is watching a thread I tend to pose direct questions to him. Why not? If anyone can answer them, he can.

sudawilde

06-05-2003, 12:00 PM

Wow, what a fun thread.

Here I was reading and I see Absor posted 8o
Then he acknowledged that the exp "change" would hit soloers the hardest /faint

/warm and fuzzy on
I commend you for coming around and saying hello Absor(you must be insanely busy lately), I commend you for posting on this thread in response to Panama's article(it shows a concern for public opinion that I didn't think SOE had) and I commend you on your honest assessment of the exp change(As Accretion so deftly said "calling a spade a spade")

/warm and fuzzy off
Why should I as a class have to build masses of friends, join a huge guild, and work to build an impeccable reputation in order to get a group. When the "Trinity" can just log on, /OOC 65 blabla lfg, and be exping in 10 minutes? Things are not balanced, and I am afraid by your responses here they may never be :(

AbsorEQ

06-05-2003, 12:05 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>For the record, I was NOT attacking SoE or Absor.[/quote]

And I don't feel like I was attacked. No worries from me. :)

Let me try another approach.

Many of you seem to think that a druid is a good addition to a PoP group. But you're saying that people don't want you in groups.

What is the reason that they don't want you?

What can we possibly do, based on your response, to overcome that?

Answer those with the understanding that there doesn't appear to be any real need for any huge changes to any classes. I'm not asking you to tell me that you need to be able to nuke like a wizard and heal like a cleric, nor am I expecting you to introduce me to a new form of ability never seen before. Let's keep this to a realistic level, within the realm of the possible. :)

A

AbsorEQ

06-05-2003, 12:08 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Then he acknowledged that the exp "change" would hit soloers the hardest /faint[/quote]

It's not as though we didn't say that outright in the several messages we've posted about it. :)

I'm glad any time that I can provide any sort of warm fuzzy. Thanks.

A

Stormhaven

06-05-2003, 12:21 PM

Wow, no replies yet. I think you scared them off, Absor.

AbsorEQ

06-05-2003, 12:24 PM

Woot!

:)

A

Stormhaven

06-05-2003, 12:25 PM

I'm very tempted to change your title to "Likes giving warm fuzzies."

Stormfront

06-05-2003, 12:28 PM

Absor-

Honestly, I've thought ALOT about that, and I don't envy you your job. I don't know an easy way to make us more desired in a group. I just know that something is out of whack.

This is what I see. With the opening of the new planes, the zone that I mainly use for the non-traditional groups (a la HoH) will be full to the brim. I don't begrudge the non-flagged this, and so I've just accepted that I may have to return to some sort of traditional grouping again. This is further reinforced with the PoP ZEM reduction that ends up only hitting solo'ers.

I would request that we just get some ability (or revamp of an old ability) that makes us stand out in one area, and therefore a merit to a group that can't be interchanged with another class. I'd say all classes need something that defines them, and makes them different and useful in their own right. Ours has always been the ability to travel and solo OR group. With the advent of PoP port stones, SoW potions, Gate Potions, and even Port potions, our travel advantages have become nearly obsolete.

I hope I am coming across clear. I understand that you feel that druids don't need any new abilities, and I'd agree to a certain limit, but I'd still like to have *something* that seperates us from other classes.

Alot of people ask why I rolled up a druid if I knew they were solo'ers and not as needed for a group. Also stated in that we knew we were generalists and not specialists. To me that argument discredits itself. When I started right after Beta, there was no way I could know the implications of the class I chose. I love my class and I think I play it well, but I would like to be able to bring something unique to the table.

Either way, thank you Absor for atleast mulling this over with us! Seriously raises my respect for you and the crew.

Stormhaven

06-05-2003, 12:36 PM

Feel like you've got good ideas to answer Absor's challenge about the Druid? Post here! (http://pub149.ezboard.com/fthedruidsgrovegeneral.showMessage?topicID=31214.t opic)

Accretion

06-05-2003, 12:45 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>What can we possibly do, based on your response, to overcome that?[/quote]

*blink*

*rubs eyes*

Heh, well since you asked....

1) Nukes -- I believe our perception as viable nukers has taken a huge hit due to the fact that our crits are so far below Mage crits (and until 64, roughly equal to 65 Enchanter crits, FWIW). I know that skilled players understand that efficiency is most important, but at level 61 Mages do 2000 base damage while Druids do 1150. We both get comparable upgrades at 64 & 65, but the fact is that groups see the numbers and assume Druids are now 2nd rate nukers. Toss in the Mage pet and it really looks bad. Might I propose a bolt-like, high-output nuke in line with our Summer's Flame/Moonfire efficiency that would help with our perception as nukers?

2) Debuffs -- A Shaman is nearly always sought after in group settings because of one thing.....Slow. Sure, Shamans are very valuable for other things (DoTs, Malo, Buffs, etc.) but slow is the THE number one factor for getting a PoP group together. Might I suggest an upgrade to the Druid debuff line in the form of a Class AA or 63-65 spell that would actually help us compete? I haven't done any parsing lately so I can't provide you with numbers, but a single target, non-stackable debuff that would mitigate 30-40% damage (roughly 1/2 of Shaman slow) would do wonders for our group viability. Maybe it wouldn't even stack with any slow over 40%. Anyway, the point is it would benefit LOTS of players to have another class with the ability to make PoP encounters doable without a Shaman or Enchanter slow.

I'm sure I'll think of some more =P

Primero Aventurero
63 Druid

Tawnosii

06-05-2003, 12:46 PM

They don't want us in xp groups because we can't ress, our heal is horriby mana inefficient compared to a cleric and isn't much more efficient than shaman quiescence (from a class with the best slow in the game), and our other abilities are either worthless trinkets (woo 40 point damageshield) or relics of a bygone era (ports).

But you only wanted ideas from the druidic optimists i guess.

TeriMoon

06-05-2003, 12:48 PM

Aidon Rufflefuzz

06-05-2003, 01:27 PM

You're claim that groups are limited to those classes is your own view. I don't share it, and I would encourage you to recognize the value your character can have in those groups.

Well Alan, I'll be the first to say that the Druid class is in a vastly superior state than it was way back in Luclin when I wrote the State of the Druid. However (you just knew there was going to be a however from me), while I may understand my abilities and worth to a group, the fact remains that if a Druid shows up /lfg in PoP...he has a difficult time finding one. You don't need an evacer thanks to graveyards (which isn't to say I don't like them, I think they are great). Most groups are still made up of Tank, Cleric, Slower, DPS. While a druid can heal many many places with a slower...people are wary of letting druids be their healer.

Its no longer a lack of power in the Druid class. Its a matter of perception which will never change. There isn't much SoE can do about it, and right now I don't see much that you guys need to do.

That doesn't change the fact that many druids are forced by circumstances to solo. For many of us, its our primary means of getting XP, because for the good XP camps...people don't want druids. The only thing Sony needs to do is stop nerfing soloability and solo xp.

Personally, I'm not much of a soloer. I hate it. It bores me. I quit for many months, for many reasons, but partially because finding groups was a pain and if I wanted to keep up in the XP I had to go solo. That doesn't change the fact that making Soloing a less viable option doesn't help anyone. All it does is hurt those classes who can solo and have a difficult time finding a group.

ccLothar

06-05-2003, 01:48 PM

1) What is the reason that they don't want you?

2) What can we possibly do, based on your response, to overcome that?

Answer those with the understanding that there doesn't appear to be any real need for any huge changes to any classes. I'm not asking you to tell me that you need to be able to nuke like a wizard and heal like a cleric, nor am I expecting you to introduce me to a new form of ability never seen before. Let's keep this to a realistic level, within the realm of the possible.
----------------------------------------------------------

1)
- We aren't as covetted as the specialists that do what we do better.
Healing Role:
-- Clerics have Bigger, better, faster Heals
-- We can't rezz. I'm not asking for Druid rezz here! I'm just stating what goes through the mind of those when they set up groups.

DPS Role:
-- Druid DPS drops off very quickly over time. In bursts, it's highly respectable but over time it drops of dramatically.

Misc.
Things Uniquely Druid aren't valued in groups.
-- Evac isn't respected. No group ever gets going thinkign that they'll ever need it.
-- Ensare is a commoditee. Can be done by SK, Necro, Ranger and Wizard + everyone with a proc.
-- Harmony is a commoditee and not a real factor in most XP groups.

2)
- REMOVE the XP penalty for DIRE pets and make them far more Abundant than they aleady are. No brainer here.
- Increase group max size.
- Lower the cost of Druid spells.
- Increase Druid mana regen.
- Make our attack debuffs mean something or show something quantifiable when logs are parsed. ie. Make our attack debuffs have meaning people can understand in the same way we all understand Slow.

Edit -- P.S. I still want a Group heal that isn't aa based. ....it's just something I've always thought we should do better than Pallys and don't. :(

ccLothar

06-05-2003, 01:54 PM

Absober - Here are my questions:

1) Why the double hit? Why did you guys hit us with the charm nerf and then heap the soloing xp nerf on top it? Why not just do one or the other? 17% is pretty nasty hit.

2) Are you willing to admit that you want soloing to be a players last option as opposed to finding a group?

Panamah

06-05-2003, 01:58 PM

Make druids be the kings of damage shields and start designing zones where you might chose not to slow creatures to take advantage of the benefits of the damage shields. Trade off is between tank taking less damage and the fight being shorter, or visa-versa.

TeriMoon

06-05-2003, 02:00 PM

That would step on Mage's toes.

BricSummerthorne

06-05-2003, 02:01 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
What is the reason that they don't want you?
[/quote]
1) Past history -
"Druid XX trained me", "Druid YY stole my camp", etc. On any of the class boards, Druid jokes are as common as Blonde jokes. Being a Druid, this baffles and dismays me, but I recognize how little you can do about it.

2) Group roles -
When looking to build a group, you look for certain functions. The fact that you are filling a functional role implies a heirarchy of classes you are looking for, beginning with the class that is best at that function. For example Rangers CAN tank, but groups will always consider a War, SK or Paladin first.

In the absence of that "best" class, you may decide to take a less appropriate/powerful one. The issue is that the subordinate class will not be considered for slots if the dominant class(es) is(are) present, or expected to be present in the near future. In other words, groups will hold out a few minutes for a Cleric, even if a Druid is LFG. They will hold out for a Shaman (for slowing), even if a Bard is LFG.

The two main functions of a Druid (healing/DPS) are both overshadowed by more specialized classes. When looking for either of those functions, we must hope for the absence of the dominant classes to even be considered for the slot. Beyond that, there are players who don't believe we qualify at all, but that's perception again, and hard to address.

Let me say that in the current game, I feel this situation is equitable because of our solo option.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
What can we possibly do, based on your response, to overcome that?
[/quote]

Honestly, this is a tough one. Anything that makes groups say "quick, grab that Druid!", will of necessity be something that is an addition to or amplification of our current abilities. I don't feel we are underpowered, as it stands - it's just that much of our power can't be expressed in a group setting, as opposed to a specialized class bringing 100% of their power to the group.

Anyway, I see two options:
1) Give us a new, unique function. Something group-friendly, that would NOT be useful solo, and nothing that is a watered-down version of another class's ability. That's a tall order, because a group only functions on 3 axes: DPS, healing, and mitigation. There are already too many competing DPS classes, more healing would step on Clerics, so I'd vote for something in the damage mitigation area. An avoidance buff would be unique. I dunno, there's not much room for a new thing, this bears some thought...

2) To Terianya's and Aidon's point, you could let us continue to operate in our most efficient enviroment - soloing. No buffs to soloing, but simply a recognition that forced grouping does not enhance the potential of the class, it forces the class to operate sub-optimally.

Centain

06-05-2003, 02:09 PM

POP group made up of (mainly) cleric + shaman + melee? Why?

Our heals make us a viable alternative to a cleric in many cases and our evacs let us TRY to keep deaths down -- but no matter what we do, people die. A group will want someone that can rez them when they need it (and they will) than someone whose evac might not land on time/etc. I do not know what can be done in this regard that wouldnt step on clerics toes too much -- a lessened percentile rez? I dont know -- It might work but clerics would probably be chosen by necessity 99% of the time.

What about shaman then? They are chosen for mainly one reason -- slow. Yes they can buff and heal, but so can druids. Obvious possible answer would be a slow type spell that is lower than a shamans max one. I would ammend that and say that the slow should be so mana intensive that if a druid is casting that, they PROBABLY shouldnt be able to act as healer also.

With either of those changes it seems that a druid+cleric combo would work with druids using the mana intensive slow? Or druid+shaman work with druids doing primary healing and using rez as needed.

I understand the need for us to be the generalist of eq -- meaning we are likely not to have a real niche (heck, clerics can pull better than us even hehe) but perhaps the generalist thought might allow us to have generalized abilities of other classes?

Yes.. soloing is being somewhat nerfed -- truth be told, I would spend 100% of my time grouping instead of soloing if I could. As it stands, that isnt really an option...

If it seems that those 2 might step on other classes feet a bit, how about some type of melee debuff that doesnt stack with slow but provides SOMEWHAT comparable (seriously noticeable) results -- Our current debuff line just isnt useful in any real noticeable sense...

Lalian

06-05-2003, 04:40 PM

Another possiblility is to make the druid's AC and attack debuffs more meaningful. The attack debuffs are useful, but they are somethign that only shows up in parsing. Make them more dramatic; make them have a visible effect on a mob (not like slow, but more like cripple).

Ellzii

06-05-2003, 05:32 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>What about shaman then? They are chosen for mainly one reason -- slow. Yes they can buff and heal, but so can druids. Obvious possible answer would be a slow type spell that is lower than a shamans max one. I would ammend that and say that the slow should be so mana intensive that if a druid is casting that, they PROBABLY shouldnt be able to act as healer also.[/quote]

Slow is the #1 answer I agree wholeheartedly but the missed point was stackable buffs, CLR + SHM can generate outrageous HP totals which make CH and Slow even more effective.

LZ

Edditted to corect speling mistackes

Sildan

06-06-2003, 01:37 AM

I honestly don't think the druid needs any changes to get groups. It's not our abilitites, it's the image people have of druids.

The new LFG tool has hurt us more than helped us IMO.
Previously we could send a tell and sometimes someone would say, Sure, why not.

Now with the LFP option they can uncheck druid AND THEY DO. I'm yet to see druid as a wanted class listed for a group in that tool.

Not much help I know /shrug

Sil

Serenya EQ

06-06-2003, 05:59 AM

From an outsider's perspective, albeit one who regularly hunts with a druid, here are the things I believe would aid.

1) Increase the maximum group size to 8, OR add a 'grouping' bonus to raids of 10 or fewer members. This will permit adding that 7th or 8th person without the huge hit to experience currently felt, providing a greater likelihood of picking up a generalist to serve a buffer/safety margin role.

2) Increase the value of damage shields, either by permitting DS's from different classes to stack, or by increasing the damage done by higher level shields. I know that as a cleric I love having a DS up, it speeds up the fight, reducing the damage I'm healing. Stackability rather then an increase in raw damage would reduce the potential for abuse in powerleveling, whilst simultaneously encouraging having two classes in one's group who can damage shield, such as a mage and druid.

3) Increase the effect of the higher level AC/ATK debuffs. Again, damage mitigation.

4) Improve DOTs efficiency, particularly against POP mobs.

TeriMoon

06-06-2003, 06:10 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Increase the value of damage shields, either by permitting DS's from different classes to stack, or by increasing the damage done by higher level shields[/quote]

Oh dear.

When I am the main healer in a group, I usually have a shaman or a ranger or a paly or a BL or some combination thereof. That makes for a LOT of buffs in order to try to make up for no cleric buffs. Stacking DSs would not do much good in the actual played game. Even as things are, many times the tank clicks off DS is order to have room for quiescence or Sotw. When you are in a suboptimal group, you need all the buff slots you can get.

Batou062671

06-06-2003, 06:52 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Many of you seem to think that a druid is a good addition to a PoP group. But you're saying that people don't want you in groups.

What is the reason that they don't want you?

What can we possibly do, based on your response, to overcome that?

Answer those with the understanding that there doesn't appear to be any real need for any huge changes to any classes. I'm not asking you to tell me that you need to be able to nuke like a wizard and heal like a cleric, nor am I expecting you to introduce me to a new form of ability never seen before. Let's keep this to a realistic level, within the realm of the possible. [/quote]

The reason they don't want us is that they can't PERCIEVE what we bring to the group.

Damage shields display no message since everyone has them off. Even if they are on, no one knows how much they hit for and even if they did, no one can sum them up in their head as they go by and still fight efficiently. Soloution, make a summary at the end of the fight saying how much the damage sields did to the mob when it dies. I.E. Soandso took 800 damage from thorns.

DoT's don't display their damage to other players either. They don't know that the mob went down faster because you droped two dots on it. Therefore you brought nothing to the group. Soloution is to once again make it visible at the end when the mob died, how much damage it took from dots.

Our debufs are show to be effective at reducing mob damge output. I'm not sure how to make that visible, but it would help as well... Maby how much less damage was taken as a result...

If the problem is the perception of other players, give them something to percieve our benifeits with. We do bring a lot to a group but everything we bring isn't something you can tell if you're not the one sitting behind the screen casting the spells. That is the basic problem with druid desierability. No one can tell in game that 'hey druids don't suck anymore' because they can't see all the benifits we do bring. Some of our AA's may be effective as some other clases, but once again, they don't have the 'flash' of others (such as a bunch of wolf pets) and therefore that causes a perception problem too. The problem is that the game gives no feedback about druid effectivenes, where it gives immidiate and direct feedback for other clases. When it doesn't give feedback for the other clases, their abilities are so powerfull that you don't need a message to detect them.

Druids strenth lies in the subtle application of the right selection of our skills at the right time. No one can tell we are doing it though, so we appear weak to them. No one knows the druid just saved the group from certian death. No one knows the druid added extra damage and healed at the same time. Why? Because there is no way for them to know it.

Serenya EQ

06-06-2003, 07:14 AM

Teri,
You make a very good point. What I would love to see to help alleviate that issue is for 'short term' buffs to go to the bard box. Things like damage shields, heal over times, maybe even haste? Basically, buffs that by design are put back up frequently rather then 'fire and forget' buffs.

Danyela

06-06-2003, 07:28 AM

OMG you guys!

I will be the first to admit, I don't play a druid. In fact, I play one of the classes you guys seem to hate the most; an enchanter.

But, I am aghast at what I am reading in this thread. Obviously you know more than I do about your overall group desireability, but from my perspective I have never seen an instance where a druid was just plain not wanted.

Things I see that you bring to a group:

Backup healer: No, you cannot replace a cleric. No, you should not be able to. BUT, when all hell breaks loose, the backup healer can, and often is, the one that saves the day. What classes make good backup healers? I would say druids and shaman only. Opinions may vary.

Evac: Ok, you are in a group, sitting in a relatively safe corner, fooktard single pulling until the mundane grows to the utterly boring. Evac isn't very handy in this situation. Get a group to get off their collective arses and crawl somewhere, and evac is still very useful and desired. Who has it? Druids and wizards, unless I forgot someone.

Ensnare: This spell totally rocks. I was once asked, hypothetically, what item I would get if I could have anything in the game made into a nodrop item for me. Those gloves that have right click ensnare is what I said I would want. The power of this spell cannot be overstated. It keeps mobs from running too far, and it makes any charming scenario almost trivial to maintain. Who has it? Druids and rangers.

DPS: I don't know why any druid would feel they have a place to complain in the DPS department. You have very nice DOTs and very nice DD. Are you the absolute best at either of those? Certainly not, but you are not slouches either, and it isn't the only thing you bring to the group.

Damage Shield: Ok, yeah, you aren't THE BEST at this either. But, in a group without a mage (which is most groups) I have never seen a tank tell a druid not to cast their DS. It is still very useful and desired.

POT9: One of the defacto raid buffs is also one of the highly desired grouping buffs. NO, it doesn't stack with virtue, but it does stack with Kazad and is the preferred buff combination for almost anyone with a clue. Mana regen stacks with KEI/VOQ. It rocks!

SOE/Shared Wolf/Speed in General: If nothing else, you know the puller wants to have this. Sure, it doesn't work for indoor zones, and you aren't the only class that offers it, but you are one of just a few (3 total I think) that has a run speed increasing spell worth mentioning.

The thing that might help you the most, which has nothing to do with tuning or adding an ability, would be for the group to actually see how much damage you are doing, with DD and with DOTs. Obviously that needs to be filterable just like it is with melee damage, but there could be a perception you aren't doing enough damage, when in fact you are contributing quite a lot.

Edit: I should know better than to add this as I am sure it will get some feathers in a bundle and nothing is meant as a personal attack by it, but druids are hybrids. Hybrids are a combination of the skills of other classes (allegedly), and not intended to be as good at any of them as the pure class from which they are derived. Bearing that in mind, why do you think a hybrid should have some skill that only they possess that makes them a 'must have' class for an everyday xp group?

Slimer26

06-06-2003, 07:57 AM

Absor -

I understand the need to help the grouping situation. What I don't understand is the need to hit solo'ers so hard.

These are hard reports from graffe's users. This was before the slight tune of the past week.

Using Plane of Fire as an example...

Solo xp has been reduced by 37 percent and close to 16 percent while in a duo. Even a trio is seeing a reduction. This has been confirmed by multiple sources on test through both showeq and physical testing.

Now...couple that with the 33 percent xp hit for using charmed pets and you have an overall reduction(In PoP zones) of around 70 percent.

Now, the patch message stated that solo xp would only be slightly hit. How is 37 percent a slight hit let alone the 70ish percent hit is you are a charmer(enchanter - only way to get solo xp, druid or necro)?

I will admit that i have not seen the new 'tuned' xp for PoP zones and maybe you can comment. Honestly, i think it is time to revisit the 33 percent hit for using charmed pets as a 70 percent hit to those classes is just plain silly. Totally dropping the high ZEM's of pop is not the answer either. Why must a sledgehammer always be used first and not a scalpel? Subtly is an artform that SOE has yet to master.

Thank you for your time,
Clot 65 chanter of VS
Varoom lvl 63 druid of VS
Slizz 65 chanter of SZ retired
Slimer 63 mage of Lanys retired
Limo 60th druid of Lanys retired
Morril 60th druid of SZ retired

And yes....those were all my characters :)

Roasten

06-06-2003, 08:11 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>With 400 Children and Crops in the Field[/quote]

If you wanted to use a cute song reference, at least get it right.

It's "With 4 hungry children", not "With 400 children".

Delowen

06-06-2003, 08:21 AM

One thing I dont like about the coming XP changes is the fact its nerfing PoP solo XP, Reason being is that I charm kill a lot in PoS and charm XP has already been nerfed and I dont even try to outdmg a charmed lorok I just do my 1pt of dmg to get my 67% XP, which is still good XP IMO and I dont mind it, but how are the coming XP changes going to effect the charming druids XP? Is it going to be such a hit to it that I wont want to do it anymore?

Kaelian

06-06-2003, 08:22 AM

I'm another outsider. I play an enchanter with a druid as my alt.

I'd like to second what Danyela said. Druids are very valuable to any group. I'm really astounded over some of the things I'm reading here. (as a side note, if you think you're feeling left out recently, go read the chanter boards /duck)

IMO, one of the biggest perceptions that druids have to overcome is the perception by many people that a druid is not a skilled group player. I am referring to the player, not the class. The majority of druids spend so much time soloing, that many people are reluctant to accept them because they think they won't know how "behave" properly in a group (i.e., not break mezz, waiting for assist, stay in camp: you are NOT kiting, etc...).

I've seen many "solo" druids do some really bad things while grouped and with some catastrophic consequences. I've never turned down a druid for a group. I think it is a great class. But, it's one of the concerns voiced in a group whenever you debate about sending the invite. (And yes, an unskilled chanter can cause even more havoc).

AbsorEQ

06-06-2003, 08:35 AM

Sorry I couldn't reply again yesterday, meetings and all that.

And I have to run off to another one now.

But I'm reading and, frankly, not seeing a solution that makes sense to me (though that of course may be all about me...).

And this conversation is a bit premature, now that I've had some sleep. We should at least wait until everyone has seen the changes in action before worrying about it too much.

Thanks for the comments, keep them up, I'll read.

A

Batou062671

06-06-2003, 08:51 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I will be the first to admit, I don't play a druid. In fact, I play one of the classes you guys seem to hate the most; an enchanter.[/quote]
I doubt most druids hate enchanters. I know I certianly don't. I love being in a group with one quite frankly. I don't think it's hate so much as envy that chanters can get groups so much more easily than a druid can.

Accretion

06-06-2003, 08:58 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> But, I am aghast at what I am reading in this thread. Obviously you know more than I do about your overall group desireability, but from my perspective I have never seen an instance where a druid was just plain not wanted.[/quote]Well, there may be a few like you Danyela, but you're the definite exception, not the rule.

A few days back I was killing Golems in Valor when a Ranger sent me a tell that I had pulled EW's mobs. I apologized and said I had seen a full pop there and he explained that they had just wiped and hadn't been pulling for awhile. I asked him if the group was full and he said it was but that he'd keep me in mind. About 30 mins later he sent me a tell that they had a member leaving and to come on over to EW. I was pretty excited that I was getting picked up (a rarity in Valor) but when I got there, I found out that the Enchanter didn't want me because the group "wouldn't have enough DPS with 2 Druids." They argued over whether to add me for at least 10 mins (while I was standing there) and finally the other Druid had to leave and the Chanter reluctantly let the Ranger invite me.

We ended up having an excellent group and folks were happy, but this type of experience is NOT uncommon (other than the fact that I actually got INVITED to a group in the first place). Sure, we can solo in some PoP zones, but unless you rely on friends or guildies, it can be pretty rough getting into xp groups with the current perceptions.

<img src="http://sun.he.net/~justin1/eq/sig4.jpg"/>
Magelo Profile (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=562742)

Batou062671

06-06-2003, 08:58 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>But I'm reading and, frankly, not seeing a solution that makes sense to me [/quote]
Well, you think we are great in groups, I think we are great in groups. The question is, why don't others think we are great in groups when it comes time for pickup groups? Why do they percieve us as underpowerd? It's because they can't percieve what we are doing. I think that is the basic problem. Without perception of what we do in a group, they can't know we added anything. It's easy to tell at a glance what a chanter does when a mob is mezed. It's easy to tell at a glance that a cleric brings great heals, bufs and rez to the table. It's easy to tell at a glance what the effect of slow is. Druids, while powerfull, usualy need parsing to tell how powerfull our spells really are because there is no visible feedback. We will never be able to break the perception of other clases as being underpowerd as long as they can't percieve what we do. As far as they can percieve, we are secondary healers. All of our other benefits are hidden from view. How to fix this, I'm not sure, but I do think this is the root cause of druid desierability problems.

Stewwy

06-06-2003, 08:59 AM

Absor,

There are two threads specifically for you to read. One is a summary and one has the details from which the summary was made.

Check out

Ideas on the New Druid

and

New Druid thread Overview (WIP)

These are not links but the names of the topics.

**********************************************
Summary of what people are saying the problem is the design of game is dependent upon specialists with one being the healer and even though we are the second choice for that role, the lack of a rez and the better heals will always have people preferring a cleric for that role.

My pinion:
A level 48 cleric can complete heal in PoP and if you remove the aggro associated with level that is where you have the druid in equivelent desire for PoP groups as a healer. NO ONE would take a 75% rez, and a level 48 cleric can CH. That is the same boat a druid is in. How many level 48 clerics get groups in PoP? None. Even clerics less than level 56 have problems getting groups. Whether SOE likes it or not the truth is the ability to heal like a cleric will never make us a viable alternative because of the need for rezzes which only two classes can essentially do and Paladins can't heal well enough to sustain a group. Thus YOU, SOE have made one out of every six group spots MOOT, and saying that druids can fulfill the expectations of the Norrathian communities only shows lack of understanding.

I see no hope for making the druid a viable substitute for clerics just because of the rez if nothing else. I am not saying we need to give druids rez, that will never happen because for some reason SOE has decided clerics need one group spot all to themselves and it has been that way since Kunark. I accept that after 3 years of the same old same old. Thus we need something NEW to make us desirable for groups which will allow us to VIABLELY fill one of the specialist roles SOE has designed the game around. I gave my take on this already and am not going to repeat it here.
.

Stewwy

06-06-2003, 09:04 AM

Accretion wrote:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>We ended up having an excellent group and folks were happy, but this type of experience is NOT uncommon (other than the fact that I actually got INVITED to a group in the first place). Sure, we can solo in some PoP zones, but unless you rely on friends or guildies, it can be pretty rough getting into xp groups with the current perceptions.[/quote]

Absolutely 100% true and right on the mark!

We the druids know our value. The Norrathian Community does not and it is SOE's responsibility to fix it, not the druid communities. Will they?

Menlaiene

06-06-2003, 09:48 AM

What I don't understand is why other classes always come here and tell us how great we are, but when it comes to inviting us into a group....well that doesn't happen. Instead, I spend 2-5 hours looking for group before I give up and go to bed. Well not anymore, because I got frickin sick of that and retired my druid.

Celaire 43 cleric
Regane 48 enchanter
Menlaiene 60 hierophant-retired

ZarrosLivinglight

06-06-2003, 09:56 AM

Menlai please allow me to ask you a few questions. These are in all seriousness and are absolutely not meant to be sarcastic/condescending or anything of the sort.

1. How much of your career as a druid did you spend soloing, and at what point did you start soloing because you had to versus wanted to? My question revolves around how large a network of friends/guildies you have to draw on, and your experience functioning in a group and the reputation that derives from it.

2. In those times you were LFG, how many times did you try starting a group or forming a duo with another class? I know from personal experience on my beastlord that finding another person and duoing has almost always turned into a full group of 6 within an hour or so, and usually turns out to be a lot of fun in the process.

3. When LFG, did you just put your tag up and /ooc "Druid LFG" or did you explore and seek out where groups might be and inquire as to whether or not they had room? My intent is to determine how proactive you've been and what results its had.

I know from an outsiders PoV that I see tremendous benefit to having a druid in a group. Saw it with my cleric, and if nothing else being a beastlord has reinforced it (druids are preferable to me because I can't gate out of the bottom of a dungeon.) I find myself baffled by the lack of desirability druids complain of in all honesty.

Qwin

06-06-2003, 10:10 AM

It really is quiet simple absor.

You guys at SOE tuned POP for the specialist classes. In doing so, you made the expansion challenging for them. When you did this, you made generalist, less effective, there by making them less desirable.

A POP exp group requires efficiency, and efficiency is upper most in the players mind set, as much as you guys at SOE don't want to accept it. Druids do not add to efficiency. Don't get me wrong here, druids can be a good addition to a group, but they just don't do the job efficiently enough to be picked over other classes, when forming a group.

The game has progressed to the point that adding any new essential ability, would really upset the apple cart, and trying to tune down the content so that the generalists can actually be desirable, would just make it less challenging for the specialist.

Really the only solution to this problems is to stop trying to discourage soloing. Soloing is truly the only place the generalists abilities shine. Do to the way you guys have tuned the content over the years.

Kbern

06-06-2003, 10:47 AM

EQ is about progression. Progressions is a time sink.

People hate time sinks. Efficiency is the best way to combat time sinks.

See the post above about specialists and generalist appeals from Qwin.

We make usefull additions to groups, but we do not make the best additions to groups.

If we are not lucky enough to get spot with guildies or friends, then that leaves pick up groups.

Pick up groups will attempt to create the group with the most efficiency.

If we are lucky enough to get in that healer spot due to no other clerics looking for group, then we are in.

If they have a healer, we are not going to be the chosen class to fill in the DPS spot, or the CC spot, or the Tank slot.

We do not have a slot to fill at that point.

So groups make concessions to allow a druid to join them. I dont want to be a concession, I want to be needed.

That is not our job to make sure we are needed. We can be the best skilled druid on the server, and we still only the same tools you give us.

I am not sure how much more clear we can make it.

So by not adjusting anything to allow us to fill a needed role in groups, or at least lessen the need for the other specialists, we need to have our soloing abilities to rely on.

You all have made mobs immune to movement changes. Solo nerf.

You all have made mobs summon in many zones. Solo nerf.

You all have lowered the exp from charm kiting. Solo nerf.

You all are now further lowering the value of exp we get from soloing in the few areas we actually can solo.

Am I missing anything?

Danyela

06-06-2003, 11:07 AM

Well, there may be a few like you Danyela, but you're the definite exception, not the rule.

A few days back I was killing Golems in Valor when a Ranger sent me a tell that I had pulled EW's mobs. I apologized and said I had seen a full pop there and he explained that they had just wiped and hadn't been pulling for awhile. I asked him if the group was full and he said it was but that he'd keep me in mind. About 30 mins later he sent me a tell that they had a member leaving and to come on over to EW. I was pretty excited that I was getting picked up (a rarity in Valor) but when I got there, I found out that the Enchanter didn't want me because the group "wouldn't have enough DPS with 2 Druids." They argued over whether to add me for at least 10 mins (while I was standing there) and finally the other Druid had to leave and the Chanter reluctantly let the Ranger invite me.

We ended up having an excellent group and folks were happy, but this type of experience is NOT uncommon (other than the fact that I actually got INVITED to a group in the first place). Sure, we can solo in some PoP zones, but unless you rely on friends or guildies, it can be pretty rough getting into xp groups with the current perceptions.

I am not totally shocked at something like this happening, but it is stuff like this that never ceases to amaze me.

DOTs, by their very nature, have a bit of a hidden effect. You don't get to tell what good they were doing until the person casting them is suddenly gone and the fights are taking longer ;)

But, the whole notion of having a druid standing there and taking so long to decide whether or not to take them that someone else left as well is just so completely ludicrous. The DPS the group LOST by having that discussion far outweighs what they could ever hope to gain by waiting for a more desireable class.

Menlaiene

06-06-2003, 11:23 AM

I'm getting a little tired of people assuming that I suck as a player because my class is not balanced in group desirability. But whatever, my victory is that my cleric and enchanter don't have to jump through any hoops and get groups all the time.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
1. How much of your career as a druid did you spend soloing, and at what point did you start soloing because you had to versus wanted to? My question revolves around how large a network of friends/guildies you have to draw on, and your experience functioning in a group and the reputation that derives from it.[/quote]

I soloed in the newbie zone from 1-5. At level 5 I began grouping. I grouped in pickup groups or started groups with my boyfriend's monk until the mid 40's when I joined my guild and started grouping in guild groups whenever that option was available. I soloed below 50 for 3 reasons: 1) money 2) quests 3) tradeskill supplies. Although more often than that I just grouped with my boyfriend's monk to do that stuff.

I joined a guild which had about 20 active members, from 46-60. Some of them played everyday, some played less. Most of the guild knew each other in real life, or knew someone who knew someone etc. I grouped with them alot and had a great time but when they were not available I could get in a pickup group--until 50 when I was too high for the dreadlands and could not get a group anywhere else. This is when it began, my always thinking that if I got just one more level I would be wanted in groups. I soloed spirocs in TD to get to 51, but my group desirability didn't change much. I could get groups in KC sometimes, or with the guild when they were available but anywhere else I could not find pickup groups. But this was during the summer so the guild was active. I grouped with them alot and soloed or duoed with my boyfriend during off hours, thinking that when I got chloroblast I would finally be wanted in groups.

School began again and I was level 54. Once school started my playtime dwindled to 1 or 2 days per week, but most of the time my guild could play during those times also. When PoP came out this slowly began to change. I didn't buy PoP for 2 months and thus could not spend much time with my guild. Between August and December I got two levels, mostly in guild groups since I can't recall soloing anything.

Alot of my guild was out of town for Christmas vacation, but I had more time to play. I was determined to get to level 58 so I would finally be able to find groups. I leveled from 56-57 root/dotting in chardok. This was boring torture, but I was so close! I was going to be able to find groups when I got my heal! On christmas I got PoP and leveled quickly from 57-58 charm soloing. During this time I also LFG and would find one every once and awhile but for the most part I found nothing.

I was disheartened to find that becoming 58 did not change much. I was still a last-resort group member. More than ever I depended on friends/ guild members for groups. I leveled to 59 with my guild. Then came a time when we were going to merge with another guild and all had to be 60. I quickly soloed to 60 charming and then vowed to never solo again. After that I helped some guildies get to 60 also. But we never ended up merging with the other guild, as their recruitment officer quit and the invitation was unextended. Things got worse. Those flagged for tier 2/3 hardly ever saw the others. I was on the fence as I was flagged for tier 2 but not wanted there. Finally the guild broke up. I tried LFG and failed again and again. It seemed all I had to look forward to is soloing, so I quit.

As for reputation, I doubt I have a reputation of any kind. I am a casual player. I play in spurts, on a vacation I will play every day. During a busy couple of weeks, I may not play at all. My server is very big, the only people who are well-known are those in uber guilds or those who play every day or those who have done really horrible things. I am not any of those, so I fade in to the background. I have always considered myself a grouping druid. I spent most of my levels healing. I specialized in alteration. I know what I'm doing, thank you.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>2. In those times you were LFG, how many times did you try starting a group or forming a duo with another class? I know from personal experience on my beastlord that finding another person and duoing has almost always turned into a full group of 6 within an hour or so, and usually turns out to be a lot of fun in the process.[/quote]
Have started groups from time to time, usually with another friend but it is really disheartening having slowers leave your group or go "linkdead" when they find out you don't have a cleric. 90% of the time we would end up doing yard trash in tier one with people much lower than me.

Duoing is impossible in PoP unless it involves charm. I've charm duoed with another druid before but that's it. If you have 2 people and no slower, you sit at the zone line waiting for a slower and sending out those tells as fast as possible to get one. In my experience the big bar that it was hard to jump over was finding a sufficient slower. If you get one too low level and the only healer you have is a druid, your group is not going to last long.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>3. When LFG, did you just put your tag up and /ooc "Druid LFG" or did you explore and seek out where groups might be and inquire as to whether or not they had room? My intent is to determine how proactive you've been and what results its had.[/quote]
I would try several different zones but I would not go to specific camps. If you do that, you're looking for a pity invite since if they really wanted you they would have invited you when you were shouting. You're just putting the group in an uncomfortable position to try and get a pity invite and I don't like doing that.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I find myself baffled by the lack of desirability druids complain of in all honesty.[/quote]
Play a druid and see how frustrating it is LFG all day.

Frankly there is a balance problem when some classes have to do nothing but merely shout for a group or put on their tag, or just sit there and get random tells within 15 minutes while other classes can run around LFG for hours without a single tell for anything but ports or PLing or buffs. I am not the only one on this board who has experienced this playing a druid.

And then we get "...but you can solo." Honestly I have no desire to ever solo again. The only time I solo is to kill crag spiders to make money for my cleric. I picked up a multiplayer game to group and that is what I intend to do. If SOE feels that the druid class' lack of desirability in groups is balanced by soloing, than freaking warn us on the character select screen or the manual. If I had been warned about how undesirable I'd be at high levels, I would never have started a druid.
Edit: ack spelling errors

Mysthawk

06-06-2003, 12:16 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>So groups make concessions to allow a druid to join them. I dont want to be a concession, I want to be needed.[/quote]In a game that has a max group of 6 characters, with what 14 classes to choose from... that leaves a minimun of 8 classes not "needed".

In reality there is no class that is needed. Perhaps you want to be a preferred class, like Clerics, but as it currently stands there are only a few classes like that. Druids aren't being singled out.

Wizards also seem to think (I don't share the vocal opinion) that Wizards aren't looked for in groups. So it's not just "generalists" that have this apparent aura of not being wanted.

Laeyakk

06-06-2003, 01:43 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>What is the reason that they don't want you?[/quote]

Because there is no ability the druid can contribute I can't get better, or at the very least 95% as good, somewhere else.

They are half as good a healer as a cleric (fast heals do half the HP/sec, big heals are half as efficient).

Most classes outdamage druids in the vast majority of xp groups. Their ability to both heal and nuke is usually mitigated by the fact that any healing they do reduces their nuking ability, and vice versa.

Their ability to do damage is 2 to 5 times greater soloing than grouping, which means that good druids tend to not be LFG for pickup groups (sample bias in LFG druids) because they can easily out xp a mediocre group.

There are 4 reasons why a group should grab a druid:
1> Need snare, and no rangers around.
2> Po9/Cabbage.
3> They are a friend
4> A better class for the job isn't LFG

Rekcim

06-06-2003, 02:29 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>We are also opening up the old world, so the number of available locations to solo AND group will increase quite a bit.[/quote]

Absor, do you realize how god awful exp is for a level 61+ character killing BLUE old world mobs?? If you don't kill a 60+ mob at 65, you get a HUGE exp hit. There is a 5 level limit, as i'm sure you know, that allows you to gain decent exp. I'm not sure if its a bonus or a penalty(can you explain it?), but if you kill a mob 5 levels or more below you, you get AWFUL exp. What zone in EQ has level 60+ exp mobs that isn't in PoP?? None. So basically, I still won't be able to exp anywhere but PoP at 63+, because my exp/hr will be horrible.

Please consider removing the 5 level limit or extending it out some. I don't want to be traped in PoP zones to gain exp. PoP is a wonderful expansion, but I REALLY miss sebilis, chardok, CT etc.. Extending the blue con range will do little to allow 61+ to exp in non PoP zones.

Malange

06-06-2003, 02:49 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
Edit: I should know better than to add this as I am sure it will get some feathers in a bundle and nothing is meant as a personal attack by it, but druids are hybrids. Hybrids are a combination of the skills of other classes (allegedly), and not intended to be as good at any of them as the pure class from which they are derived. Bearing that in mind, why do you think a hybrid should have some skill that only they possess that makes them a 'must have' class for an everyday xp group?
[/quote]

Rangers are hybrid (Druid/Warrior).
Paladins are hybrid (Cleric/Warrior).
Shadowknights are hybrid (Necro/Warrior).
Beastlords are hybrid (uuh..Shaman/Monk?).
Some might even say Bards are hybrid (Enchanter/Warrior).

Druids are *not* hybrid. They are a pure PRIEST class, one of three in the game. Cleric and Shaman being the other two.

kktks~

Frodlin7th

06-06-2003, 02:56 PM

I realize it's off topic and all, but Absor.. please pretend you're reading the warrior board, we really feel neglected over there

Selldor

06-06-2003, 05:27 PM

I have played since the beginning.

I have played in groups and soloed since the beginning.

I know my class and what it is capable of.

In 4+ years I don't think I have had 5 altercations of any significance with others on my server, and those were with "known" problem people.

I would hope and believe I have a very good reputation on my server, for whatever that is worth.

In today's EQ I find it harder to get groups then the "early years"

Over the years I have dealt with the "druid perception" by other classes. In the past I have actually been ask why would I wish a group? Druids are good soloer's. Some peoples attitudes about druids as a whole, have not been to flattering in itself. Some druids are to fault for this in their playstyles they used.

I have always noticed druids seem to have a bit more trouble getting groups then most other classes but I usually managed to get by. If I could get a group I was a happy player. If not then I could take all my bits of abilities and nicely put them together to solo for my exp. Being the way the druid was designed this was more the norn for most I would think.

As the game progressed towards todays high end type play, grouping has become more and more of a defined set of needs, killing a mobs massive DPS output, (slows) holding second, third and forth mobs at bay, (tank mezzing, mezzing), and massive healing. Dieing equals ressing. Druids don't fit well to this kind of grouping mindset or need.

I can bring ALOT to a group as a druid but in most peoples minds, alot of moderate, or average, abilities, won't stack up against those classes that can each bring one or two exceptional abilities to that group. Druids have always had to deal with this on some level, so they were the premiere soloers.

In todays game of EQ, the druid is no longer a "great" soloer as compared to many other classes, has actually had many of the soloing ability crippled, to encourage grouping, but in todays game of EQ, grouping has actually become harder for the druid.

This is the way I see it. Kind of the proverbial catch 22.

I also believe most druids would like to group, and have even half an easy a time getting a group as "some core classes" do.

my ramblings, my thoughts.

just an old druid
Selldor

Graal the Dorf

06-06-2003, 06:00 PM

If my group needs a healer, the very first thing I do is

/who all cleric 62 65 LFG

If I don't see a cleric LFG that is flagged for the zone I'm in (or that I can stand ;) ) I do

/who all druid 62 65 LFG

I almost never get a hit when I do that.

There are many, many times that I would love to find a druid LFG but can't. I'm also more than willing to add a druid to the group if we already have a healer. I am much less willing to add a cleric to the group if we already have a cleric.

Chernobyl

06-06-2003, 07:38 PM

In frustration I am adding just one thing here rather than the enchanter boards (groan, yes it's an enchanter complaint again)

All I want to know is, with the upcoming reduction in ZEM this is going to be a triple reduction in xp for soloing enchanters. Here is why:

1) The loss of enrage on monsters slowed down xp considerably. Instead of being able to control the pace of the kill with slow/haste and using enrage as a tool to beat down the charmed pet, then breaking charm and nuking you now have a situation where the pet is left with 30% hitpoints regardless of what you do...sometimes those darn pets seem to be tougher than their friends !

2) The obvious charm xp reduction dependant on "other" damage

3) The reduced ZEM's hurts soloers more than anything.

So, I guess I can't really do much more than to ask that the charm xp reduction for pet damage done is removed in light of the ZEM reductions. It's the only way an enchanter can solo (essential ability if you play in UK daytime). I haven't seen any reductions in xp if you kill four mobs at a time....which is along the same lines as what is the situation with charm right now. Granted, we always had this...but there ya go.

Other than that, I really do think that groups should make more xp than soloers in a given time period. It encourages people to look for those LFGers and frees up places to xp. Now, I don't know about you...but I really had a less stressful time when I hit level 50 and could have fun chilling out and playing an alt once in a while. With the current number of alternate advancement abilities it always feels to me like, oh...just gotta get that, I need this next etc. Good groups taking on high level challenges should be able to make roughly 1aa per 30 mins IMO. Is that too much? I'm talking taking on PoEb or HOHb type stuff here...which I don't think is too bad considering the danger.

Hmm, what else can I say...oh yeah, Raid xp. Given that a lot of people in large guilds spend the majority of their time on a raid, shouldn't it be so that you could imagine that with a reasonably hard raid you could gain approximately half the xp of a person who is not raiding? Maybe thats a little high, perhaps one third is closer to the mark. Can something be done about that?

Well, thats me folks. Apologies for hijacking the board.

zotha

06-06-2003, 08:16 PM

The new xp changes arent going to kill soloing. They are going to balance the gains from soloing so that it is more in line with the xp gains gotten per person in an average xp group. If you think its your *right* to make as much as any 2 people in any 6 person group combined, then you obviously dont care one whit about balance past your own narrow worldview.

I would be very nice to any devs that come here and talk to you, most class boards NEVER see any form of feedback from them at all, have no form of dialogue with people actually working on the game and generally never get any problems fixed. Id love to see someone come over to Steelwarrior and have a chat about where the warrior class is atm, but it will never happen.

One last thing, if you think any class logs in and magically gets group invites out of thin air every day, even one of the so-called "holy trinity", thats complete bollocks. As one of the best equipped tanks on my server I never even get instant invites from within my own guild, let alone at random. 99% of the time if I want a group that doesnt suck completely, ill have to build it myself and quite often I will have druids, mages, wizards or whoever in it. To me and most others, its the person behind the character thats vastly more important in xp, a friendly and competant player is far more important to me then getting 2 more kills per hour.

FennyMT

06-06-2003, 11:02 PM

give druids a buff that causes the player to proc a haste theft type spell. i.e. slows the mob and hastes the melee by a useful percent .. 50% perhaps.

make the proc short duration, like dance of the blade. the buff itself should be of the 30 min duration type, so ppl actually want the class around. oh and group only, and level limited so its not yet another druid powerleveling tool.

for an rp angle use like some kind of energy sapping nature phenomenon. like uh.. Humidity of Miami or something.

A Crystalline Golem is drained by the Humidity of Miami.

but seriously, haste/slow is what groups need desperately in pop, and this is a "fall back" type of haste slow, like bards. not ideal like enc/shm.

Shikarii Apoccalypse

06-07-2003, 01:54 AM

don't edit my posts aidon no matter what one-sided views you may have.
if you don't like what i write bubba just delete them.

oh, and /wave kytelae :D

Your post had nothing to do with the conversation at hand. Its sole purpose was to bitch about how Absor doesn't post on the Steel Warrior. If you think objecting to that and removing such drek from the thread is one sided, so be it. I'll worry about your complaints when you start to contribute to our discussions in a meaningful way. - Aidon

Aidon Rufflefuzz

06-07-2003, 01:57 AM

1. How much of your career as a druid did you spend soloing, and at what point did you start soloing because you had to versus wanted to? My question revolves around how large a network of friends/guildies you have to draw on, and your experience functioning in a group and the reputation that derives from it.

Having been in two large "uber" guilds with Aidon...let me assure you, your guildmates are no better than the general public.

They want a cleric. They want a shaman. They want to kill the toughest things and don't believe a druid can do so. You know which Druids gets groups (sometimes) in a large guild? An officer druid can. A cyber pet druid can. Occasionally the best druid in the guild can grab a group after he's proven himself as a capable healer...but only if they can't find a cleric or are being generous and letting you take a spot because they can't find anyone with higher DPS.

2. In those times you were LFG, how many times did you try starting a group or forming a duo with another class? I know from personal experience on my beastlord that finding another person and duoing has almost always turned into a full group of 6 within an hour or so, and usually turns out to be a lot of fun in the process.

Do you have any idea how difficult it is for a Druid to start a group? Right off the bat you need a tank (they don't want to group with non cleric healers), you need a slower (They don't need to wait for someone to put together a group...they log on get into a good group within seconds). I've spent hours trying to set up groups.

As for Duoing...the instances in which that's a viable means in PoP ends up being a waste of time for both parties as they could go and each solo for more xp. Melee and Druid...not Duoing in PoP. Oh...it used to be somewhat viable for a couple of charm classes to charm/dire charm a few pets and get a middling good fun group, but Sony decided that type of grouping wasn't valid.

3. When LFG, did you just put your tag up and /ooc "Druid LFG" or did you explore and seek out where groups might be and inquire as to whether or not they had room? My intent is to determine how proactive you've been and what results its had.

If you had any clue how often Druids are lied to about group openings, or just point blank told they are saving an open spot for a better class...you wouldn't even ask this question. Don't insult our intelligence.

I know from an outsiders PoV that I see tremendous benefit to having a druid in a group. Saw it with my cleric, and if nothing else being a beastlord has reinforced it (druids are preferable to me because I can't gate out of the bottom of a dungeon.) I find myself baffled by the lack of desirability druids complain of in all honesty.

Play a high level druid, you won't be baffled any longer.

Aidon Rufflefuzz

06-07-2003, 02:12 AM

The new xp changes arent going to kill soloing. They are going to balance the gains from soloing so that it is more in line with the xp gains gotten per person in an average xp group. If you think its your *right* to make as much as any 2 people in any 6 person group combined, then you obviously dont care one whit about balance past your own narrow worldview.

<blink> Soloing isn't better XP than group unless the group sucks. It's more per kill, yes. But it takes a good long time to solo mobs.

I would be very nice to any devs that come here and talk to you, most class boards NEVER see any form of feedback from them at all, have no form of dialogue with people actually working on the game and generally never get any problems fixed. Id love to see someone come over to Steelwarrior and have a chat about where the warrior class is atm, but it will never happen.

We prefer to gain the attention of the Devs by providing cogent points, arguments, and discussions, rather than by kissing their ass. As much as I have problems with the Devs...I'll give them this much, they seem more interested in hearing legitimate arguments here than reading other VAK laden boards which simply tell them "You're great, you aren't doing anything wrong. We have it great and only fools would complain."

One last thing, if you think any class logs in and magically gets group invites out of thin air every day, even one of the so-called "holy trinity", thats complete bollocks.

Warriors are no longer part of the "holy trinity", in fact I'll agree they are getting the short end of the spoon in relation to the other plate tanks. However, if you think Clerics, Enchanters, and Shaman have to sit around trying to find groups...that's complete bollocks.

To me and most others, its the person behind the character thats vastly more important in xp, a friendly and competant player is far more important to me then getting 2 more kills per hour. 

I can heal an XP group better than 90% of the clerics I know. I'm a very competant Druid. You aren't reading the posts. Its not that we are no good, or that our class sucks (though it used to be), its the fact that groups min max. They want their clerics. Their Rogues. Their chanters.

Finally, if you want the Devs to come by the Steel Warrior more often, perhaps you should spent more time producing discussions and arguments over there, and less time telling us we shouldn't complain.

Panamah

06-07-2003, 07:36 AM

I haven't said much on my position because... well, I figure I'll be jeered off the message forum. :)

I think that the experience rewards should be like this:

1) Groups should get better rewarded than soloers. There can be a lot of downtime and inconvience inherient in grouping that soloists just don't encounter.

2) Soloists should not get *as* good experience soloing as if they were a member in a full group. It shouldn't be vastly less, but it should be less. In all cases. Whether you're a bard, a druid, a necro, an enchanter, it should be less.

Being able to solo is a priviledge that not every class gets. When you can multiply that ability like bards can, it's just insane and why would a bard every want to group?

I realize druids and necros have a harder time getting groups than clerics and shamans. But does that justify that soloing should be better than group for them? /shrug There are non-soloing classes that have as hard or harder time getting into groups. You're still miles better off compared to those classes because you can solo.

Does SOE need to help out the druid a bit more? Yeah, I do think a druid will always be the second place choice to the specialist unless they're playing with friends. PoTN mana regen aside, people don't like that missing 1000 hit points if they don't have a cleric around. Enchanters get REAL nervous being grouped with druids because of the lack of fast heals and "save-your-ass" spells that clerics have. I don't think there are many enchanters out there that'd rather be symbol/virtue free AND have slower, smaller druid heals in PoP.

And... I hate to say it, there are still a lot of 60+ druids out there that don't know how to heal and don't do a good job at being the primary healer. I always get nervous when I'm grouped with a druid on a raid because I'm never quite sure whether I've got a non-healer. Some are great and I'd trust in place of a cleric any day, but others absolutely stink the place up. True there are clerics that stink but clerics usually know their role pretty well by 60, especially since they really only have one job.

Daemonwind

06-07-2003, 10:34 AM

Edit: To the mods on this board, I'm really sorry to hijack this thread, but, I don't know how else to actually get a message to Absor that he would actually read. /feedback... I think he's far too busy to go through ALL of them... anyone got his email? =) You guys are lucky to have a forum that a Dev actually posts on.

Absor:

Here is a link to the Warrior Class Boards.

steelwarrior.xwarzone.com (http://steelwarrior.xwarzone.com)

Since I have never seen you, as Community Relations ever post on the Warrior Community Forums, I have to believe one of two things, that you either a: Didn't know about the site, or b: are avoiding the community. I choose to believe the former.

The rather large and pressing issues facing warriors today, Namely, the issues of warrior aggro generation, its reliance on pure luck and utter reliance on raid level mobs to optain weapons to generate luck-based proc aggro... the fact that knights can generate aggro on demand, including snap aggro at the beginning of the fight, while warriors cannot.. the fact that warriors are now being consistently passed over for XP groups in favor of knights... all of these issues simply have not been addressed, or even acknowledged by SoE.

While the issue of warrior taunt in the past TWO Fan Faires, has been acknowledged by Dev's to be a problem, there is still no resolution to this issue, and there has been very very little, if any communication to the warrior community on the status of this issue. If you were to even LOOJ at the warrior boards, you would see that a significant percentage of the threads in the skill forum has to do with the problems with taunt.

I notice you are asking Druids about their issues and how you can help. The question I pose is this: Why is the warrior community being ignored? The only time I have EVER seen a Dev post on the warrior boards was to promote the Stromm server, and I don't think any dev has EVER asked us about what issues there are with the warrior class, what SoE can do to help, or what ideas warriors have to fix this problem.

to sum up, warriors are distinctly feeling ignored and left out in the cold. There has been no communication on the part of SoE about problems that, when pressed, they have admitted exist.

Please, Absor. Drop us a line, sometime. Even if it's just to say yeah, we know there's a problem, we're working on it, but we're not quite there yet. Cause warrior's taunt issues are among the biggest issue any class can have, and we're feeling distinctly ignored.

Thanks.

sudawilde

06-07-2003, 10:56 AM

/pretends to ignore daemonwind's post

ANYHOW,

the druid class is according to SOE one of 2 Jack of all trade class's in the game. Bard and Druid

If you think of it this way, and balance the druid to the bard, you have a huge disparity, Bards can find groups, and druids cant. I wonder why that is, maybe its slow, mezz, Uber mana regen, pulling, Haste cap increase just to name a few.....

All you people saying you think the druid class is great just how it is are one of two things.

1. Delusional... for this i cant blame you, most times its not your fault :D

2. Full of PooPoo... for this i can blame you, Drop the fear that a druid might actually take your spot in a group and let a whole group of EQ players have some fun also.

Soloing sucks, almost no one likes it, and i can assure you, with the inc exp nerf its going to be even less fun for those that do enjoy it.

Here is a consept that i would bet most of you hadnt though of including SoE, soloing exp was not that great for the normal people, maybe it was on average better than grouping exp, but to be honest, that little bit of benefit only kept us loggin back in for more, you keep this solo nerf bat flying like you have and you will feel it where it hurts.

in your BIG FAT POCKETBOOKS

people will leave, people will quit, they are not going to rally support from people that will never quit, they wont /petition for the problems, they wont let you know in any way, they will just cancel their acounts, your monopoly on MMORPG's is going away. other companies will catch up to you, they are now.

p.s. I do feel pain for warriors and your taunt issues, but bottom line, this is a druid board.

Aidon Rufflefuzz

06-07-2003, 11:30 AM

And... I hate to say it, there are still a lot of 60+ druids out there that don't know how to heal and don't do a good job at being the primary healer. I always get nervous when I'm grouped with a druid on a raid because I'm never quite sure whether I've got a non-healer.

The rogues in my last guild used to specifically request me as their healer, because I understood that keeping the rogues healed up and putting out their insane DPS was vital to a raid. =P

Calebe

06-07-2003, 12:27 PM

I can mention one item that was promised, the patch for it said in advance and is still not in the game.

Upping the BoT Tower Boss mobs loot table. It was missed on the last major patch, and in all the subsequent patches it was also missed.

Alan will the fix go in this patch? That is what I want to know, and also please the itemization in PoP should not be a future plan, but top priority. Do you know the frustration of taking 30+ people on a raid and have only a rune drop that anyone needs, as the other loot is a ring that only 1 person needs to open the way to Agnaar, and a clump of fungus?

Frustration is not the way to have fun, Risk AND Reward are, and it seems that was the cry from Verant, and now SOE for a long time. Take the risk, but you get a reward. That is no longer the case in Tiers 1-3. You have admitted as much with the porposed Itemization changes. The BoT Tower boss's are a prime example, and it is one Panama should list as one that was promised, a date given, and a full month later has still not been fullfilled.

So an update Alan on that would be great, IS the BoT Tower boss mobs loot table FIX going in on the patch on Wednesday? That is a concern to my tier 3 guild. The drops from their are so disappointing, we haven't gone back since it was reported that the FIX was accidently missed. We want too hit those Tower Boss's but again why if 30 people go, and we walk away with a rune, and a clump of fungus. 30 people go in, and 1 person gets a reward. Sorry that causes discontent, and leads to people leaving smaller guilds for larger ones where the mobs drop enough loot to make the risk woth while.

I am sure if the boss mobs in the Elemental Planes were on the same loot table as the BoT Tower boss mobs are now, the outrage from less than 10% of your playing base would be deafening, and you would have emergency patched it. The loot on the Tower mobs is horrible, and ultra rare, and a lot of people can do them, and effects a lot more people than those in the Elemental Planes, and yet the fix is missed, and a few patches later it is still being missed.

Calebe

casualeq1

06-07-2003, 12:48 PM

Absor said

"If not, then, while certainly your right to do so, I find it bothersome that you have decided to pick items from our list of things for the future and complain that they are not complete yet. Rather sad, if you ask me."

Absor, I find this strange since you are a master at evading an issue while picking out one small part of a post to reply to and often not addressing anything of substance at all.

"Do me a favor in return. Reply to this thread with one example of an item that we've listed as upcoming in the next patch that we have not delivered."

This sort of proves my point in the above statement. You select one thing you know can support your argument and ignore everything else. This isnt isolated but a modus operandi.

And in response to this statement I would like to know when the BOT bosses are going to give out more than fungus clumps. This is something Panamah mentioned in his article but yet you simply skim past it because it makes SOE look bad and doesnt support your argument. Yes I know your job is to be a spokesman for SOE but good relations sometimes mean that you have to own up to your mistakes. SOE has admitted this was left out but umm it was left out weeks ago and still isnt fixed. BTW it isnt mentioned in the patch message either.

As for the changes I have no problems with them as presented and will withhold final judgement when I see them.

As for the druid grouping argument, all I can say is when my guild has guild events I am asked to bring my warrior or my cleric and have never been asked to bring my druid.

random user

06-07-2003, 01:02 PM

A rune is a drop, and on our server most 65 spells still sell for 20kpp, so a rune drop isn't chump change.

It is unclear when they said that the tower bosses would always drop something, whether a rune would be considered a drop. As a matter of fact, ever since the patch after they said they missed it, we've never failed to get at least a rune each time.

As to taking 30+ people, well, it's not anyone's fault you are taking so many people to it. We've killed one of the tower (yes tower, not wing) bosses with 8 people before; we have killed another two of them with only 18 people and probably could do it with less (and we don't bother with earth because of various reasons).

I wouldn't mind seeing the towers drop a piece of equipable loot each time, and I'm kind of on the fence about whether they should or not. I would, however, like to see an official statement about whether they consider a rune to be a loot drop or whether spell drops are ancillary.

- Xylem, E'ci

Xitix

06-07-2003, 05:19 PM

Well for a while they would drop no rune or equipable item at all most of the time. Just the quest container and fungus clumps or even an empty corpse. So it's a major improvement to at least get something each time and for most guilds runes are pretty nice.

zotha

06-08-2003, 01:18 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Soloing isn't better XP than group unless the group sucks. It's more per kill, yes. But it takes a good long time to solo mobs. [/quote]

Teehee, might want to tell that to the druids and wizards in my guild making 3+ aa an hour kiting Fennin fort in fire while a conventional group gets maybe 1.5aa in same time at same camp. Just cos you dont have access to certain areas of the game, or arent taking advantage of them doesnt give you the right to infer my groups suck.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>We prefer to gain the attention of the Devs by providing cogent points, arguments, and discussions, rather than by kissing their ass. As much as I have problems with the Devs...I'll give them this much, they seem more interested in hearing legitimate arguments here than reading other VAK laden boards which simply tell them "You're great, you aren't doing anything wrong. We have it great and only fools would complain."[/quote]

Wouldnt matter wtf we posted over at Steelwarrior, they simply NEVER read the boards. Again your inferences and insinuations about an entire community that you dont know are very insulting. The SIMPLE FACT is that for god-knows what reason SOE devs actually come here (and to teh Safehouse) whereas many other central community boards are afforded no such consideration, EVER. I dont see how staying nice to people who are affording you a far greater respect then they are many other class boards can be considered "kissing their asses".

The warrior boards contain many decent ideas, concerns and suggestions and not just "VAK laden" posts saying "You're great, you aren't doing anything wrong. We have it great and only fools would complain." However these ideas and concerns will never be heard, because as I mentioned before, devs simply NEVER VISIT OUR BOARDS where as several seem to come here once a week. How about considering yourself lucky to get any contact with the dev team, no matter how much you obviously hate them.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Warriors are no longer part of the "holy trinity", in fact I'll agree they are getting the short end of the spoon in relation to the other plate tanks. However, if you think Clerics, Enchanters, and Shaman have to sit around trying to find groups...that's complete bollocks.[/quote]

Considering that most "endgame" guilds are filled with people who dont want to go near the cesspool of stupidity and incompetance that is the "pickup" group scene my point stands. Warriors (and yes a properly equipped tank is still the best tank in the places with the best xp), hybrids, clerics all need to wait on groups. Most guilds have alot more clerics then offtime xping can accomodate due to gamedesign which nescessitates using 8+ of them on alot of encounters. Now which are you gonna take in an xp group, a 2nd cleric or a druid? A 2nd warrior/paladin/sk or a druid? At least you have the option to do something other then sit around with your thumb up your ass or doing tradeskills.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I can heal an XP group better than 90% of the clerics I know. I'm a very competant Druid. You aren't reading the posts. Its not that we are no good, or that our class sucks (though it used to be), its the fact that groups min max. They want their clerics. Their Rogues. Their chanters.[/quote]

If you are talking about pickup groups, well I wouldnt know. I havent lowered myself to swimming in the cesspool for several years. If your entire argument is based on the decisions of the average Valor-drone about your class/abilities, im not surprised youre having problems.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Finally, if you want the Devs to come by the Steel Warrior more often, perhaps you should spent more time producing discussions and arguments over there, and less time telling us we shouldn't complain.[/quote]

Thanks for more insults about a community you obviously have never visited. I dont think I could stomach more threads about taunt being broken, or us needing seperate mitigation tables. These 2 things have been broken for years and have been discussed, argued over and commented on by the warrior community for as long. However when the devs consider your class not worthy of ever being looked at, let alone fixed you have a hard time moving on to new issues. The old saying, the squeeky wheel gets the grease, seems to be the credo of this board but the simple fact is that if people with the power to affect changes dont listen to your wheel it doesnt matter how @#%$ squeeky it is.

Aidon Rufflefuzz

06-08-2003, 01:42 AM

Teehee, might want to tell that to the druids and wizards in my guild making 3+ aa an hour kiting Fennin fort in fire while a conventional group gets maybe 1.5aa in same time at same camp.

If you're camping the same camp that druids and wizards can solo...you're group is probably lacking.

I dont see how staying nice to people who are affording you a far greater respect then they are many other class boards can be considered "kissing their asses".

We aren't here to be nice to the Devs. We're here to point out when they @#%$ up. We also give them Kudo's when they don't. I dunno, it seems to be working.

The warrior boards contain many decent ideas, concerns and suggestions and not just "VAK laden" posts saying "You're great, you aren't doing anything wrong. We have it great and only fools would complain."

I never suggested it did. You'd be surprised at which boards I go around and read. I think the Steel Warrior is a great board. Its the board I use when I have questions about warrior issues for my original character whom is now my secondary, a warrior. Its the board I recommend to others when they ask. I know of many boards, however, where the tone is decidedly VAKish, and it seems to me you are suggesting that because Sony comes here and reads us...we should be as well.

Considering that most "endgame" guilds are filled with people who dont want to go near the cesspool of stupidity and incompetance that is the "pickup" group scene my point stands.

I haven't done the pickup group thing in longer than I recall. Its pointless for a Druid. My grouping experience and comments thereto come from my time in an "endgame" guild, prior to my quitting the game for a while. And even in a large guild grouping dynamics are pretty much the same. The guild chanters, clerics, and shamans don't sit around trying to find a group. Neither to the Tank classes, unless the chanters, clerics, and shamans are all taken already.

Now which are you gonna take in an xp group, a 2nd cleric or a druid? A 2nd warrior/paladin/sk or a druid?

If there is already a cleric, then you pick up DPS. Rarely do I find myself in groups with a cleric in it already. As for a 2nd tank...um, yes groups will frequently pick up a 2nd tank over a druid.

Thanks for more insults about a community you obviously have never visited.

The comment you quoted was in no way related to the community over at the Steel Warrior. It was a comment on the individual. As I said, I have much respect for the Steel Warrior boards and community. I read the boards myself. I never suggested that they don't put forth cogent analysis and ideas. I suggested that a persons time might be better spent adding to those then coming to the Druid boards and complaining that Absor doesn't post on the Steel Warrior boards.

These 2 things have been broken for years and have been discussed, argued over and commented on by the warrior community for as long. However when the devs consider your class not worthy of ever being looked at, let alone fixed you have a hard time moving on to new issues. The old saying, the squeeky wheel gets the grease, seems to be the credo of this board but the simple fact is that if people with the power to affect changes dont listen to your wheel it doesnt matter how @#%$ squeeky it is. 

My honest suggestion? Forget Sony's "policy" of ignoring petitions. Draw the list of changes the community feels necessary, get 2000 or so people to sign off on them. E-mail the list and the link to the "petition" to Sony, get a link posted to Mobhunter and Caster's Realm (if Caster's Realm isn't too deep in Sony's pocket to post such links anymore).

Coming here and bitching that Absor doesn't read your boards isn't going to help you one bit.

Xitix

06-08-2003, 04:54 AM

When doing content that is hard for a given group the specialist classes have an advanatge. That content could be hard due to it being new, group having lower end gear, levels, abilities, player skill or whatever. It seems to be a principle that they need this edge to get groups. They pay for it at the other end when content is easy they lack depth to be desirable. They also tend to not stack well. Over the last few months they have closed the gap but it's still pretty large. Clerics have more to offer in easy groups and druids have more to offer in harder groups for example.

As for needed abilities I think they should be phasing or spreading them out not adding more. One thing that I think would help druids is a version of the res line of spells with some twist to make it different from the cleric and paladin versions. Maybe a version that requires the person to be targeted and it res's them to thier nearest corpse with levels and exp back equal to the line paladins get. As it is if the content is hard for a group they will want a cleric for the heal+buff+res and the druid loses out because they have lesser heals, buffs and no res. Groups might be more willing to try things with a druid if a res was available.

Frodlin7th

06-08-2003, 07:27 AM

Clearly what's needed is something to be done to druids that'll help them work well with warriors since both are having issues!

Actually, that line was meant only partially in jest. Seriously, a druid's best assets are spells which can hit multiple mobs simultaneously, as well as doing "indirect" damage via damage shields. Warriors' best assets are their deep hitpoint pools, and frankly... AE taunt.

I see no reason why a druid shouldn't be able to minimize damage output per hit while maximizing mob haste through a spell (kind of the opposite of slow, which retains the same damage output per hit, while reducing the number of hits), and warrior AE taunt to "hold aggro" for longer periods of time (perhaps similar to pets, it sure would be nice to hold aggro on multiple mobs as well as Jabotnik). This could in theory lead to multiple warrior/druid groups to be quite efficient through the use of simultaneous multi-mob tanking and indirect damage, something that any druid who's ever PL'd someone knows, they're really good at, the key being, there's a limit to the warrior's hitpoints, so it can't really be overdone.

Autius

06-08-2003, 09:51 AM

I've been a druid for a LONG while.

I've felt underpowered for a long time. I'm not exactly sure what to do about it. I like the ideas on boosting the power of our att/ac debuffs. I think that could help out quite a bit without stepping onto others feet.

Aidon, you hit the nail on the head.

You know which Druids gets groups (sometimes) in a large guild? An officer druid can. A cyber pet druid can. Occasionally the best druid in the guild can grab a group after he's proven himself as a capable healer...but only if they can't find a cleric or are being generous and letting you take a spot because they can't find anyone with higher DPS.

I have a core set of people I've hung around with for a long time. Simply put, they just don't need me around much anymore due to PoP. You don't need to evac from PoP. Most of the time you don't need to port out. So those skills are not needed. I CANNOT keep up with the healing the way a cleric can. Sure I can do it, but it is not going to touch a cleric. An average cleric can do better than a skilled druid, and I am known to be a skilled druid. Hell, I specialized in alteration, and now regret it to a point because I CAN'T GET A GROUP.

No kidding huh? Seems like if there is a druid in a group, they fall into one of those categories(the female wood elf housewives really annoy me personally)
Thank god for Necros; we can duo very effectively.

I'm hoping with Lost Dungeons we'll be needed again, along with our more useless feeling warriors(cause they can't easily hold aggro unless in a skilled group and having good aggro weapons) rogues(believe it or not, their dps is crippled due to the excessive AOE's they can't live through and are not needed for opening doors or corpse runs due to graveyards)mages(because their once awesome pets can't tank worth a damn in PoP; a pet with 2k hps cant hope to last with a 150dps 7k hps yard trash rat)

Arrgggh

Calebe

06-08-2003, 11:49 PM

Xylem, if you read the patch message on BoT Tower, they said it would have the same amount of items as any other boss mob in the game in a PoP zone.

Congrats if your guild can take them out with 8 people. We don't do it with 8, and wouldn't because the guild actually likes to do things as a guild. So many show up, even if it is way over kill, just to support the rest of the people.

The real point is, it was missed, and SoE admits it was missed, and to disagree with you, Yes that loot table needs fixed and fast. I am not sure what zone your in, but risk vs: reward is still needed in the game. The Tower Boss's are a challange. Yes we can win them, but why? Better rewards for less effert are easily gotten in Ssra's Akheva, or even ToV, at least the rewards for effert are there. PoP zones should not be the exception, and they clearly aren't in Tier 4 zones, however tiers 1-3 that 90+ % of the player base is in, is lacking in any rewards for the risk. Plane of Tactics is a great example, kill a red to my 65 toon, it splits into 2. (Suprised us, the first time it happened). Killed both, and nothing was on either body to loot, not even the obligatory clump of fungus. So a mob that would have been the boss mob in many a zone in Kunark, or Velious, drops nothing, and people are suppose to be ok with that? The problem is, it isn't the random, damn nothing dropped this time, bad luck. It is a joke to many I talk to. Killed red mobs, they split into 2, red mobs. They reply empty right. I say of course. Something is WRONG with that picture.

Calebe

zotha

06-09-2003, 01:32 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Teehee, might want to tell that to the druids and wizards in my guild making 3+ aa an hour kiting Fennin fort in fire while a conventional group gets maybe 1.5aa in same time at same camp.

If you're camping the same camp that druids and wizards can solo...you're group is probably lacking.
[/quote]

Funny thing about mobs which quad 900s, theyre alot easier when you can snare them and run in circles not getting hit. I find people who have obviously experienced about 10% of POP telling me my groups suck as completely hilarious.
If you think getting 1.5aa an hour in a full group sucks, that just proves my point that your soloing ability is unbalanced.

The druids in my guild and other topend guilds on my server have no more problems getting groups then any other class. If you are having problems getting groups, you may want to look either at the company you keep or to your own personality/ability.

Enjoy yourself and again ill say, dont take Dev contact for granted, its not something every class board is treated to.

*edit - Removed personal attacks. You are indeed entitled to post your opinion, but not to personally attack other posters. This goes for everyone, and I hope people start remembering that. - Tia *

BricSummerthorne

06-09-2003, 04:46 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
Enjoy yourself and again ill say, dont take Dev contact for granted, its not something every class board is treated to.
[/quote]

Yes, because of course our grass is greener.

If Dev contact is a "treat" to you, please don't assume that everyone shares the same view. No offense to Absor, but he generally drops by to refute something then goes away.

He comes by to argue with us, and then in the wake of his posts we get a rash of first-posters making tired metaphors about quad-kiting. Oh, joy.

In fact, I find it ironic that you would advance suggestions on how to treat Devs. If advice needs to be given, we're not the ones that need it, eh?

grats on the Druids you know that never lack for groups. I love band-camp stories, here's mine:

61 Warrior I know logs on, we're chatting. After about 20 minutes he has turned down 3 PoV/PoS grousp, 4 BoT groups, and 4 raids.

11 groups in 20 minutes. Oooo, such a rough life.

Please don't respond that the average Warrior doesn't experience that, because you know the average Druid doesn't group the way you describe, and you posted it anyway.

Tawnosii

06-09-2003, 07:18 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>If your entire argument is based on the decisions of the average Valor-drone about your class/abilities, im not surprised youre having problems.[/quote]

Yah, we wouldn't want to tune the game to the players who comprise the vast bulk of SOE's paying customers. If you have a problem with people doing outlandish things in areas most people don't see, simply nerf what they're doing. There's an easy solution that affects only a small portion of the playerbase. No need to affect the 'Valor-drones' when you can target the nerf to the people who need it.

Panamah

06-09-2003, 08:12 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Xylem, if you read the patch message on BoT Tower, they said it would have the same amount of items as any other boss mob in the game in a PoP zone.

Congrats if your guild can take them out with 8 people. We don't do it with 8, and wouldn't because the guild actually likes to do things as a guild. So many show up, even if it is way over kill, just to support the rest of the people. [/quote]

Too lazy to find Xylem's post so I'll quote you. :)

People used to use the old pacify, the one that lasted > 6 ticks and just pacify their way up to the boss mob then throw charmed pets at the boss. Doesn't work so well any longer because Pacify and Pets have all been nerfed like mad. And... in this instance, I think that's a good thing.

But yeah, we're the same. We raid the towers as a guild. Pretty disgusting to actually fight our way to the boss mob like it was designed for you to do, fight the boss, then get fungus clumps.

Metaphisto

06-09-2003, 09:17 AM

Well, this is certainly a civil thread. Kudos.

I did find Absor's 3rd (or 4th) response a bit vague. He didn't touch on the idea that the holy trinity is still far too valuable in the game even at the exp group level. Although, I would have to add that I think enchanters are not so necessary if you have a shaman around.

The shaman seems to have it all after a point. In groups in PoP in the PoV zone I have seen shaman pulling the mob, slowing the mob, tanking the mob, attacking (with their pets), and cannabilizing at the same time as acting as the main healer. The monk in the group was afraid to go in and fight and she's level 65 with about 85aa. I sat back and shot arrows in awe of the shaman. One time a few days before that we had a shaman who was pulling, slowing and tanking and using his pet and the cleric was healing the shaman. The shaman says "Cann V inc" and the cleric heals him. The wizard in the group says that the shaman should not abuse the cleric's mana like that and the clerics says "no worries, I am FM".

What's the point and how does it fit into this thread? The point is that the role that the shaman has is one that is traditionally in direct competition with the druid for groups yet the shaman will almost always get the group first. The next point is that no matter how hard the druid tries the shaman will always be the preferred group member.

The issue of damage dealers bothers me a great deal. I switched from my 65 ranger with 100+ aa because I just hate hitting my ranged attack 10k times during the day and doing little else. On raids it is really no different. Get tells for buffs, hit cop/sot and then return to hitting that ranged button. For this I changed to my beastlord who I had been levelling from the day they went live. He's got some pretty crummy gear, but hey, he's most excellent in exp groups. In fact, he's one of the strongest group oriented classes I've seen. Only problem is he has hybrid style mana regen and buffing people constantly with short duration buffs really sucks. Nonetheless, even though he's really strong in exp groups he sucks on raids. Pathetic when it comes to some raids where the guild demands that I destroy my pet. I've used ferocity on the MT during some of the big fights. We've just entered the tower and are about to enter the elemental planes. Ferocity does absolutely 0. When I try to slow all I see, is a second or two later, my slow has worn off. Unless a bst is 65 with the 65% slow slowing on raids is sort of silly, and even when we do slow a mob 65% it is wasted.

What's the point behind this? There's alot of misperception about how melee work and how hybrids work. Many of the hybrid complaints go unnoticed or are disregarded. Even though I am a great grouping class as a BL I will never get tells for groups. My 65 cleric on my 2nd acct does.

Not only that I couldn't seem to get the guild to reward my ranger with gear. Nearly 3 years with my guild and there just was very little if any gear to award to the ranger because the guild constantly moved around and never went back to equip certain classes. VI just doesn't consider this stuff. My beast has mostly Kunark era gear and the opportunity for better gear is low. My ranger didn't get gear because they needed to gear up the more important classes.

This I say because I find some bit of misperception in the thread about melee and damage dealers and I hope that Absor at least understands that he has alot more work on classes then he thinks he does.

I proposed, long ago, that the players sit for 10-15 minutes with their eyes shut, as an exercise, and imagine how EQ would be played without the likes of the warrior or the cleric. How could you play this game. It is possible. Just try to think of ways to make things happen. Even though we can apply that bit of immagination now we will never be able to fully apply it because of the problems with making classes so highly necessary while allowing others just to be "additions". Until Absor and SoE understand that they won't design any more good games.

What is important now is that SoE understand that there are issues that need to be addressed when it comes to class balancing. They need to be a bit more reasonable when it comes to class balance in the future. Was it so important that the shaman class gain so much power? Is it so important that some classes just are 2nd string players due solely to their class? Is it so important to make some classes so single dimensional in group and raid situations and some so vastly overpowered in those two situations? Is it important to ensure that the critical classes all get geared at the expense of maybe years of a player's game time?

As for the druids, well, the problem is that the abilities are so spread out now that so many classes can do what the other classes can do. What can we give to the druid class that gives groups a need for them similar to the shaman or the cleric or the monk or the warrior or the enchanter?

It isn't a slow spell. If you slow mobs much more you'll completely stop them from doing damage. It can't really be ports because well, what people want are port where they don't have to rely on another player to get to their desination and ports are just so "one-time" oriented and doesn't add value to the exp group situation.

It is just that VI gave too many abilities to a few classes that are highly desired while leaving several others dilluted with lots of little utility spells. I completely understand the druid's situation. I don't know that nerfing pop zem modifiers is justification for a major change to any class. I would just recommend that VI NOT implement the reduction. It is unnecessary to reduce it. I understand exactly why they are doing it, I just find their logic false. They can still open up other zones for exp and not reduce the ZEM and players will go there.

Couple more points on this edit:

Harmony took a big nerf and this hurt the ranger class as well as the druid. It was outdoors only and the new spell had no strengths to offset the nerf.

On the other hand the clerics and enchanters got significantly better lull type spells, actually quite significant. Gotta love nerfing the druid/ranger harmony and then giving the equivalent of that spell to the cleric/enchanter all the while making it indoor and outdoor. Then, they add the Pacificaiton spell at 65 effectively giving them a better harmony then the druid and ranger have.

For the life of me, I can't understand that series of changes.

Panamah

06-09-2003, 09:53 AM

Beastlords have amazing buffs and are always in demand on raids. However pets have always been a liability at times, especially in AE fights. Even though you probably didn't roll up your BST to be a raid buffer, you've got a lot of value on raids. I'm not sure why you think Ferocity isn't valuable. It still is in my guild. So is the mana regen and a lot of your other buffs.

I think SOE was right on when it came to designing Beastlords. They're great in groups and they're valuable on raids. They have buffs that do things no one elses buffs do and they're better buffs or else they stack. Bards are another generalist class that just seem to have a more useful skillset of general skills than some of the other generalists (necros and druids). They can do some of the more useful Enchanter functions (mezzing, lulling, charming), rogue functions (scouting, pulling), and then they have amazing abilities like boosting resists and attack that no other class can match.

That's where SOE failed with druids and I think necros but I'm pretty ignorant of necros. You're always 2nd rate, or worse, with every ability. So of course you're going to be the 2nd choice, or worse, when it comes to filling a group position, unless you have connections.

So out of the Generalist classes, I think Beastlord and Bard are definitely the best positioned for uniqueness with overlapping abilities. And I think druid and maybe necro are weak. Actually, I suppose Beastlord shouldn't count since it is a hybrid.

L1ndara

06-09-2003, 10:49 AM

So out of the Generalist classes, I think Beastlord and Bard are definitely the best positioned for uniqueness with overlapping abilities. And I think druid and maybe necro are weak. Actually, I suppose Beastlord shouldn't count since it is a hybrid.

Bards are over the top. They are not only generalists but the best in the game at almost everything they do. Who puts out the most mana/tick and hp/tick buffing? Bards. Who makes the biggest damage shields? Bards. Who puts out the best resists? Bards. And these aren't by a little, bard resists and damage shields are WAY beyond anyone else's in the game. They're also tops or right up there for haste, AC buffing, mezzing, debuffing, they have 3 minute refresh group DA, agro reducing songs, you name it. About the only thing a bard can't do and do very well is buff HPs. The only reason 95% of people don't play bards is because it's a pain in the butt.

random user

06-09-2003, 11:42 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
Xylem, if you read the patch message on BoT Tower, they said it would have the same amount of items as any other boss mob in the game in a PoP zone.
[/quote]

And if a rune is considered a piece of loot, then the have fulfilled what they said they would.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
Congrats if your guild can take them out with 8 people. We don't do it with 8, and wouldn't because the guild actually likes to do things as a guild. So many show up, even if it is way over kill, just to support the rest of the people.
[/quote]

Well same here, except maybe because my guild only has about 20 active players, some nights we just end up with 8. The tower bosses are still an active target for us because they have drops we want; we're not killing them just to say "OMG we are so cool we can kill these with 8 people." Nor was that my intent. I bet *you* could do it too with 8; I am merely pointing out the difficulty of the encounter, and pointing out that the rewards are geared towards the amount of effort required. Just because some people take more people to it doesn't mean it should drop better loot.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
The Tower Boss's are a challange. Yes we can win them, but why? Better rewards for less effert are easily gotten in Ssra's Akheva, or even ToV, at least the rewards for effert are there.
[/quote]

Well one of the things is that the tower bosses are on an 8 hr timer; thus at least one is almost always up. Sure most of Ssra is better. How many times have I *ever* killed things with my guild? 0. Not because we can't do it, but because we are a small guild, we only raid one or two nights a week. We've simply *never* found anything up in Ssra -- it's all dead all the time. The tower mobs, on the other hand, are nice because we can get through them fairly quickly, and they are often up, or we can find out when they will pop. Again, I'm not lamenting the fact that my guild can't kill them -- I'm pointing out that the Ssra mobs (et al) are on a much longer timer.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
People used to use the old pacify, the one that lasted > 6 ticks and just pacify their way up to the boss mob then throw charmed pets at the boss.
[/quote]

When we killed with 8 we did have a charmed pet, but we also MT'd it with a warrior. This was also post-pacify change, and something that I feel confident we can do on a regular basis.

Now don't get me wrong. Like I said before, I would love to see them drop a piece of loot each time as they are still active targets for us; however, given the respawn time on them and the quality of (most of) their drops, I would not be suprised if there were a high probability of just getting a rune. As to whether I personally think it should be that way, I don't know. I think it would be pretty balanced either way.

I would certainly prefer them to have a high chance of only getting a rune and having an 8 hr repop, rather than having a guarenteed 2 drops and only pop every 3 days -- there are already enough of those types of mobs around... I think it's better to have a balance.

- Xylem, E'ci

Stumbletoe

06-09-2003, 11:59 AM

I'd have to disagree with your assessment of Beastlords on Raids, Panamah, based on my RL pal who plays a Beastlord. While the class is great for xp groups in most instances, on a Raid many times a Beastlord is asked/told to kill their pet. A Beastlord without a pet is an unhappy Beastlord; and one who puts out far less DPS. All the buffs they have, except one (Spiritual Radiance), can be done by a Shaman - and done better. Ferocity is nice, but its not make-or-break, by any means. As my Beastlord friend says, "On a Raid, I am a one-song Bard."

I dig Beastlords, with or without the pet. But I certainly don't want to sugar-coat their own problems, nor make assessments on a class I don't play as to how effective they are in any given situation. I am going from what my RL friend tells me, who does play a Beastlord - and who gets frustrated a whole lot on most Raids.

Stumbletoe

Feather Silverthorn

06-09-2003, 12:18 PM

Want to make Druids Needed in groups?

Change the perception of druids. Dot reporting will go a long way. If people can see the damage a druid does. People will come around. A druid is a generalist. But if you can flow through the roles will the varied skills you have then you will always be wanted for a group.

Or at least when I am making a group I love to have a druid at my side.

As for wanting to be noticed by sony. Here is a clue. Read the boards. All classes are pissed. Except maybe Shadowknights. But what has happened to warriors and Enchanters is a crime.

Good luck. At least Absor comes here. Some classes are still waiting for the Proposed Nice thing that was supposed to happen to Disease Dots' that we were going to be pleased with.. (Some 4 years ago ) And I wonder what the reward for getting flags will be that they mentioned?

Snoww Silverhammer Bashy RABID bear E marr

Calebe

06-09-2003, 12:48 PM

Xylem you still moss the point. Let me try again. You said:

And if a rune is considered a piece of loot, then the have fulfilled what they said they would

WRONG, the other boss mobs in tier 4 zones drop a rune YES, AND MORE. That is the key phrase, they drop MORE THAN 1 RUNE. Sorry for the caps, but you miss the point every time. The BoT Tower boss's drop table was to be as deep as the other boss mobs and it is NOT. So a rune while nice, is not the be all and end all of a raid to kill the boss, because it does nothing at all for the warriors and others that don't use runes.

Also if the Tower Boss mobs are not dropping Planar molds (which are out dated as soon as you get elemental molds), what the hell is the point of planar molds, if they drop so rarely no one sees them? I have seen the specs on Planar Armour and honestly I am not that damned impressed, many of those I tems I have better than already without stepping foot inside a tier 4 zone.

They should be on the BoT Tower Boss's on EVERY KILL, and yes that is not asking to much. Honestly how many planar molds has anyone seen compaired to the wealth of elemental molds that drop frequently on all kills on boss mobs in the tier 4 zones? Exactly my point, you don't at all. Hell we killed Terris Thule, and no planar molds at all, just etherals parchments. Killed AD, and NO PLANAR MOLDS, killed BoT Tower mini boss's, no planar molds. Killed BoT Tower Boss's and in all of our kills saw exactly 1 planar mold, and that was it. None before or since.

So my question to Alan and any willing to answer it. Name a mob that drops planar molds with any consistance that 2-3 groups can take out and kill? Hell pick the mob that we can expect some with 30 people or so.

People play for the enjoyment, and to upgrade their characters. That is not possible with tiers1-3 in PoP. The rewards are not there, and the ones that were. Windblade anyone? Were removed. Why removed. I guess because players getting a reward in those zones when the larger guilds move out of that area is not in the vision. Nice rewards in HoH and even in PoS off the bees, a really nice helm. Even the Mitheral belt (sorry if the name is off), it droped in HoH was removed AFTER the top guilds moved out of that zone on most servers, and the large nurf to drops happened, and not even an etheral parchement was seen for weeks on end. So to ask for itemization, REAL ITEMIZATION is not asking too much at all. It is why people play.

Calebe

random user

06-09-2003, 01:30 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
you miss the point every time.
[/quote]

I believe I understand your point (though it is possible I may not), though I don't agree with it. I don't think you got my point though. At least you didn't respond at all to my points about effort required vs reward or for availability vs reward.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
So a rune while nice, is not the be all and end all of a raid to kill the boss, because it does nothing at all for the warriors and others that don't use runes.
[/quote]

How does that differ from a (effectively) rogue only piercer, or a 2hb that only certain classes can use, or a priest only cap?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
Name a mob that drops planar molds with any consistance that 2-3 groups can take out and kill?
[/quote]

Glykus (1 grouable), Tagrin (2 groupable), Overseer (3 groupable for sure, maybe doable with less -- never tried). 24 hour pops.

Jiva and guards (3 groups... maybe less if you care to spend the time, may take more depending on gear). 3 day pop.

I will concede that there aren't mobs which consistantly drop the other ornate parts.

However, it does not lend credibility to your statements when you make such a statement in the belief that none such mobs exist, when in fact, they show that you haven't done enough research.

Also as a note, since the time that we've been getting at least runes each time, we've gotten a mold/pattern about 1/3 of the time, though we may just be lucky.

Also, I see people complain about the itemization, and I do wish there were more. However, to say there is none I think is a little extreme. As I pointed out before, I got over 10 upgrades (that I remembered) in the first 3 months or so that PoP was released -- that's an upgrade roughly every 12 days. And I didn't have crap gear either... and all of it except one item was something obtainable with 2 or less groups.

I can name probably 20 items in each class, obtainable with 2 groups or less, all of which would be decent for most people (earring of twisted visions, wind ring, stuff on that level). The people who wouldn't use these items for the most part are going straight to elementals anyways so they wouldn't care.

- Xylem, E'ci

Realmreaver

06-09-2003, 01:42 PM

L1ndara
The Grumpy Druid
Posts: 1047
(6/9/03 2:49 pm)
Reply Re: Well..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So out of the Generalist classes, I think Beastlord and Bard are definitely the best positioned for uniqueness with overlapping abilities. And I think druid and maybe necro are weak. Actually, I suppose Beastlord shouldn't count since it is a hybrid.

Bards are over the top. They are not only generalists but the best in the game at almost everything they do. Who puts out the most mana/tick and hp/tick buffing? Bards. Who makes the biggest damage shields? Bards. Who puts out the best resists? Bards. And these aren't by a little, bard resists and damage shields are WAY beyond anyone else's in the game. They're also tops or right up there for haste, AC buffing, mezzing, debuffing, they have 3 minute refresh group DA, agro reducing songs, you name it. About the only thing a bard can't do and do very well is buff HPs. The only reason 95% of people don't play bards is because it's a pain in the butt.

ahem.. End Quote.

What type of gear did these bards have? Cause a bard without epic or planar armor or such got squat in skilz ( and I think I am a pretty dang good bard IMHO) at least what happens when I, in fennin ro server; looked for 4 days straight for a group in 4 hour time period.

IF and that is a big dang IF we got the right gear it would prob be hella different but on the class as a whole that isn't in an uber guild bards suck while lookin for an exp group.

Any soloers LFG is gonna have a hella time finding a group... so even at my best I am good for raids but in groups I am usually used as DPSer plus songs.... (makes since concidering if we an't got aggro we can sing and attack without interuptions)

I accept the fact that druids, Necroes, Beastlords... ( I NEVER see them in groups much anymore in high levels) are worsed off than bards is accurate, but concidering that bards are MENT to group and classified best to my knowledge as a melee class it sorta stinks other hybrids can easily outdo use even clerics if high enough. ( yes I seen tankin clerics LOL well the hammer is anywho. Not as a main tank...)
Bards have been 'broken' since soloing became more viable than Groupin. I an't sayin we are not great soloers ( I personnelly hate to) but most of my songs are for groups and me having to resort to soloing for at the very least decent exp is suxor.

To say any class that isn't of the fab four heh is better off than the other is basically BS. If yer leveling is dependant ( as in over 50%) of yer exp then your gonna be hurtin come after patch time.

PS I get asked so little to do other than the basics even in raids I wonder if I shouldn't join yer server which apparently knows how to use us.. I keep asking what they want and I get the generic answers... unless I make suggestions most don't even know what I can do till after I join them =/

Good luck Druids. Off all the classes that I've known I have never known better fortune and a better partner than a druid. (try a bard hunting in PoN using charm kiting, it's fast and hella fun, particular Stalkers.) =)

Arwyn

06-09-2003, 01:43 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Reply to this thread with one example of an item that we've listed as upcoming in the next patch that we have not delivered.

Absor
[/quote]

I have one. While announcing the Acrylia Caverns remake a commitment was made to reward those who had undergone the remarkably painful Inner Acrylia Key Quest (aka the Grimling War from Hell).

That commitment was made several months ago, and as of yet neither myself, nor the other members of my guild have seen fruit of it.

Three solid months of guild raiding, bouncing off the most broken quest content I've ever seen, to get 50+ members keyed up, only discover alot of broken content with unfinished itemization. We killed Takashi a few times, and found its loot to be worse than things from the previous expansions mediocre dragons.

My Hollow Acrylia Obelisk sits in my bankbox as a painful reminder about risk vs. reward.

Panamah

06-09-2003, 02:26 PM

/giggle

I was wondering about those Acrylia keys...

Wonder if the PoP flag reward will suffer the same fate.

rthen2001

06-09-2003, 05:09 PM

I hope you guys get what you need.

Its sad however that Mages and Necros seem to have been left out completely and ignored for so very long.

/shrug I guess SoE needs to appease the masses and lets face it there are so very many of you and so few of us.

Daemonwind

06-09-2003, 06:08 PM

does FT, focus items, including a whole new line of summoning focus items for mages, and 5 levels of spells in PoP not count?

You casters have gotten all of the above while the pure melee have gotten precisely nothing.

Nanoq MajicBlade

06-09-2003, 08:09 PM

Loegan! Get back to EV. We miss you!

Nanoq MajicBlade
65 Elder Heirophant
Elitists and Vagrants
The Tribunal

BR1Unknown

06-10-2003, 01:35 AM

The only complaint i Coudl possiblely think of atm, is the INSANE!! ammount of Agro you Get for useing Natures infusion or our 64th CH on a Tank , within the first 2 minutes of a fight, i dont know about you, but i have to Spam Chloroblast for 3 min, then goto Bigger heals Just so i Dont get Agro, And sorry to say, chloroblast isnt a very effective heal when "said ubermob" is quading 2000 damage..

Fixing Agro on our spells = GOOOOD..

Metaphisto

06-10-2003, 04:10 AM

Beastlords have maybe 3 buffs total that are useful at any time. The one buff that bsts are desired for is Spiritual Dominion. I'm a 65 beast. It would be sort of hard to convince me that they have amazing or even versatile buffs.

Paragon isn't a buff. It is probably what you are thinking about. It is an AA ability. It can now be MGB'd.

They also have Ferocity. It is a 6 minute buff that costs a dot. It stacks with everything. It has a 2 minute recycle. It gives 60 resists and over 100 atk. That's about it. When used it does absolutely 0 for the raid. As I'm in a guild that has just entered the elemental planes I can say that on the encounters where Bsts are participating it is only the SD buf asked for. That is a far cry from Amazing.

The other buffs a Bst have are basically the lower level shaman buffs and there's no need to cast them when you have a shaman at a raid, let alone 5 or 6.

Our buffs are too short term and even in exp groups where we are the only buffer we just don't have the mana regen to keep up with buffing 3 melee (or 2 and our pets). We run out of mana. If the casters want any sort of buff it makes it even more difficult. Our haste is celerity at 65. Acumen is fine. It is only useful though in exp groups where you don't have a shaman capable of casting it. I can cast shrink but it is single target. Shaman have mostly group buffs now and on top of that they have the CANN spell line. That's a huge difference over the bst. Shaman wanted their CANN line long ago because they had to buff so many ppl and they needed a way to regen their mana. They got it because they did so many buffs to so many people and their buffs were costly and mostly single target back then.

Most raid I participate on I'm told to kill my pet. Can't use it. That relegates me to near 0 damage compared to the others in the guild. Making a pet makes a huge one. I have to shrink it.

Bsts are less necessary on raids then druids are. If one were to say that Bst buffs are adequate justification for groups and raids then you have to say that the druid situation is one near perfection. If you compare druid LFG to Bst LFG you'll find them identical.

At no time have I said Bst suck. You just don't understand the class enough to say that bsts have wonderful buffs are are highly prized.

Tuliani

06-10-2003, 04:56 AM

"What can we possibly do, based on your response, to overcome that?"

Dear Absor:

Ideas for Druids AA’s/spell - most would make druids more desirable in a group:
1. Group and target heal-agro lessening – the group form would be a huge raid asset. (something similar to the Enchanter spell: glamorous visage) - please extend the effect and reduce refresh for these type spells.
2. Group heal (AA/spell) - at least as good as Paladin!
3. Make a spell out of Spirit of the Wood 3/3, or reduce the refresh time on it.
4. AA to imbed the beetle eye and make all spells requiring beetle eye component free. (just becuz its a good idea!!!)
5. Harmony (druid/ranger) - make it indoor/outdoor.

GaliemVaelant

06-10-2003, 07:00 AM

Absor, you do know anything you say can and will be held against you, right?

No matter what, there will always be a need for a class enhancement, nerf, etc. This is Everquest we're talking about! It grows, it changes, it doesn't end.. That's what got many of us old timers playing in the first place.

Alot of people hate druids. Why? We complain about not being powerful enough or balanced, and then go quad mobs that alot of other classes couldn't solo in singles.

Here's the thing though: Druids do not need changed. Nothing about us needs changed. We are the all purpose caster, and the price we pay is being second rate in each school of casting.

If any change WERE needed, it would be something to make us more unique. Maybe spell reflection? Who knows? Nothing we think of on this board will even be considered for implementation anyway, so even trying is futile.

Druids are a luxury to a group, not a neccessity. This is fact. There are better healers, buffers, nukers, DoTers, etc... To have a druid in group means you

1) Have an open slot and want the full group xp bonus
2) Why not? Not like you'll be lucky enough to find a second cleric.

This is what bothers so many druids, but it will never change. People, know what you ask for. Any change that made us more group worthy would also nerf our class, as we know it, beyond belief.

Three old saying come to mind:

1) You never know what you've got till it's gone.
2) If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
3) You can't always get what you want.

By the way, my main is a druid, and has been for four years. I'm not druid hating, but just saying there are many other issues that need addressed first, like, say, Plane of Time.

I WOULD like to read JUST ONE patch message with some nice goodies for druids, JUST ONCE, because I haven't in the whole four years I have playe, but... It will never happen.

GaliemVaelant

06-10-2003, 07:31 AM

I'm sorry... It's futile, but here goes:

SPELL REFLECTION

Buff is cast... What does it do? This:

Mob casts 500 point DD (even AoE)

10% Spell Reflection = 50 damage going to mob from each person hit with AoE who also has the buff.

Give it to druids only, and a higher spell = a higher percent reflected... That 50 damage, being reflected back, does not damage those reflecting it.

Done.

Druid fixed. We'd be wanted in raids. We'd be wanted in groups. We'd have a unique ability.

Unbalancing? No.

If a raid tried to reflect a mob to death, it would STILL be a challenge, because they would be purposely subjecting themselves to AoE damage.

Just if you use it, don't puss out and do it for 1% or 2% for three expansions before admiting it's not strong enough. Do it right from the get go.

This would fix every problem with the druid class, as long as it were a UNIQUE ABILITY.

Wrap your brain around that.... Not like it'll even be considered, because player feedback means nothing to you.

Autumn10

06-10-2003, 09:17 AM

I don't think it's a matter of what hasn't been done yet and why it hasn't. I can understand these things take time. Absor also stated that there were different categories, some of the things listed were slated to be done directly, others were only being considered, etc. The things that bug me are the 'broken promises'(or outright lying if you want to be blunt about it) The things SoE claims it fixed but really didn't, like the tower bosses in BoT. My guild killed all four bosses last night and you know what we got? Two runes and a spec. No items. I'm sorry but that's just absurd, especially when you consider that SoE told us they were fixed in the last patch(or one before, can't remmber which). If you want good-will among the players then don't tell us you fixed something when you actually didn't Absor. That just sucks.

WUDEDORM

06-10-2003, 09:43 AM

wow interesting read folks, I agree druids need more group friendly to the public views. Now to the point are druids broken? not imo, you cant heal like a cleric? so what I have grouped with a druid in group as main healer many times in PoP.
In regards to groups desirability, I read one guy who said 1 warrior got 11 invites in 20 minutes? who the hell is that I went LFG last night when most of my guild was factioning(no mood to try to up my chardok faction after maxxing it bad), LFG for almost 3 hours finally get 1 you want a PoV group, but by then I was to tired/disgruntled to bother and just logged.

Wudedorm Claus
Overlord meatshield for Knights of Zek
Stormhammer

Swiftfox

06-10-2003, 09:50 AM

Lil off topic I guess, But /raid exp needs to be looked at again. In PoP, it will also be taking the 17%(?) nerf. A lot of times our smaller guild will start up a /raid so we can all hunt together and get exp. With the group bonus + the exp nerf , starting up a /raid will be even less desireable for us. Perhaps would be best to give the entire /raid the same value of exp per mob as a group of 6 would get.(mob exp x zem, divide by 6 or even 7) The value in that is, it still promotes grouping and allows extra group spots for those non Ideal classes in oversized groups.

Frodlin7th

06-10-2003, 10:25 AM

In SOE's defense...

They plainly owned up to the fact that the BoT tower boss itemization fix didn't get implemented in the last patch as soon as they became aware of it.

Also, this wasn't a case of not living up to promises, but in having a patch message with an error in it. They didn't put in their "upcoming updates" message for the patch in which it was intended to go live, so it's kind of not really fair to call this "not living up to" primises that they'd made, rather it was reporting something on a patch message that didn't actually get put in, which as I earlier said, was freely and openly admitted to.

With the exception of the snail's pace of melee balancing and itemization issues, they've done quite a remarkable job of communicating what's in store, as well as followign through on their commitments lately.

Calebe

06-10-2003, 11:33 AM

I agree Frodlin7th if the FIX goes in this patch, than a promise made, is the promise kept. It is the NO responce, and no new comments from Absor. He asked name anything that was promised and not kept. This is one of them, and one they freely admitted to missing. I like that, as it is honest, however there have been a few short patches since and it was not changed, and the new patch has NOTHING in it about the change going live this time as well. All I am asking for is them to say YES or NO, will those mobs loot table be fixed to be inline with the other Boss mobs in the game.

Simple question, and would like to know the answer to it, as would others. If you read the post above, some guild spent a lt of time killing the tower boss's for hardly any rewards at all. That just isn't right.

Calebe

CloudWeaver

06-10-2003, 03:11 PM

One big issue with Druids and groups is the whole stacking issue we have with cleric's. I still see no reason for not allowing PoTG/N to be able to stack with Aego or Virtue. Almost every other class can stack there HP buffs with a Cleric.

There are other minor issues with the high end Druid but the major issue I see is we add nothing to the base of a exp group.

Palarran

06-11-2003, 01:26 AM

Overseer can be done with 1 group. It's darn risky and requires a very well equipped tank (or potentially a couple rangers with /disc weaponshield? I need to experment with rangers more...) but it can be done. The key is that the overseer has very low hp for someone that hits so hard, so all the healers can pretty much spam heal throughout the fight as long as the tank keeps aggro. It's exactly the kind of fight that the manaburn nerf went in for.

Soooo many things can go wrong when attempting it with one group, but it feels great when it works. :)

As for the original topic, I'm generally pleased with the changes that have gone in and are in the works so far. I think they're delivering pretty well. This upcoming patch will be an important factor here though...

Arwyn

06-11-2003, 03:03 PM

Ok.. Scratch the IA key reward off the list. Thanks SoE.

<img src="http://homepage.mac.com/bgibson/rov/Obelisk.jpg" style="border:0;"/>

with bottomed out Grimlings of the Forest faction... possibly the nicest charm available yet.

Only thing I would have done would have been to add Illusion: Vah Shir to it. After all, we did alot for those those kitties.

Dakkin2

06-13-2003, 10:26 AM

Apologies for bumping this thread, but it's the one Absor posted on so I'm presuming it's the most likely to be read and responded to by him (I have to admit I didn't originally intend to post here):

Druids don't get many groups because they don't improve group efficiency in any way that another class can't do much better.

Their previous role as a key dungeon group utility class (snares/evacs/ports/secondary heals) is now gone.

To make them wanted again, you'd have to give them a role that would noticeably improve the efficiency of the group.

You've already ruled out totally new features and upgrades that would affect class balance, so no slows, cleric heals, rezzes, or xlocates and no major nukes.

Which as far as I can see pretty much just leaves buffs.

To manipulate the class in any effective way though, you'd have to upgrade their existing buffs to something which would noticeably affect the killing rate or efficiency of a PoP group.

A regen that a puller with 5K hitpoints would ask for, a group regen that once again - like in the old days - means anyone who's lost less than a certain percentage of hps doesn't need a heal, a damage shield that would do noticeable damage to a slowed PoP mob, wolf form that gives a really big ATK boost and makes you non-KoS to PoP animals, maybe even a modest hp buff that stacks with Aegolism. That kind of thing.

As far as Sony's concerned, if the role of group evacer/snarer/secondary healer in Lost Dungeons is likely to be a valuable one, I'd have thought if you can get more people playing with druids in group now, your player base is that much more likely to find the transition to LDoN a natural and immersive process when it comes out.

That's just speculation on my part though.

(Edit - spelling.)