So... gonna give you a scenario. Tell me what ya think.

Is it acceptable for a guild to kill Fennin trigger with 18, an hour later, pull a mini and kill it just to keep another guild from getting either Fennin or the mini, and then go back to Fennin event since they "own" it from killing trigger with an inappropriate force for the encounter?

Another guild pulled this last week, and they think it's completely within reason. To me, it seems lame at best, downright stalling at worst.

Is this done regularly on other servers?
Did I miss the boat?

That is done on Drinal...

It's lame as hell.

I think General Reparm (sp) should guard the Fennin Ring. Not that wimpy fool that is there now.

My humble opinion, for what it's worth...

"just to keep another guild from getting" says it all. No, this is not acceptable. It is a petty, childish, and selfish attitude. Most people learn better in kindergarten.

Vestix
57 druid of Tunare

Of course it is lame and could be argued as a violation of the "Play Nice" rules.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I think General Reparm (sp) should guard the Fennin Ring. Not that wimpy fool that is there now.[/quote]

hahaha, that would own! 3.5k quads please! 3.5k proc! 18 people, me no think so.

Stormy

Its dirty pool. No doubt about it. It shows absolutely NO intergrity. I could never be a part of the guild that did this. They have no honor. Period.

Yup, that's pretty cheesy. I'd love to see that kind of thing be punishable by having your character placed in stocks for a day, in Plane of Justice. With a crowd armed with overripe fruit and good aim.

No, I do not think it is acceptable for no other reason than "just to keep another guild from doing it".

Yes, it happens on multiple servers and with multiple "needed to progress" mobs. My current crusade is to get this sort of thing fixed in one manner or another. We can't changed people's behaviour but the developers can change the mob's behaviour.

Karana is the server I am on.

One of the main problem is there is no punishment for bad behaviour. In the end, absolutely nothing can happen to you for being socially disruptive and people do figure that out.

Absolutely a violation of the PNP. If they willingly leave the zone they are signalling they are giving up the rights to the spawn. If they stay then call in a GM to arbitrate. Not to mention the bad server PR they deserve for that crap.


Belkram

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Not to mention the bad server PR they deserve for that crap.[/quote]

hehe, they had that long before they even stepped foot into Ssra. They have however been better recently until this incident.

Just so there is no confusion, we have Fennin, so it wasn't a cockblocking technique so much as them abusing their time zone advantage. They raid about an hour or so before us, so they kill the trigger about 2 hours earlier than their raid window with minimal people, and then when their raid window begins, they kill Pyronis, because they knew he wouldn't live to see the end of Fennin encounter. They were doing it to monopolize Fire since they had already "claimed" the Fennin spawn.

Stormy

Sooo they killed Fennin?

I'm a bit confused now..


If they killed trigger and slowly moved up to Fennin and killed Fennin I have no issue with that. They way they are doing it not the best but hey with stiff server competition.....

If they killed trigger and left Fennin to despawn THAT is very wrong. That is what is going on, on Drinal. A coalition of guilds kills the Fennin Trigger and leaves! They don't do any of the ring, they logoff. Then we (we being my guild) will login about 12 hours after they do and the ring is blown.

It isn't an issue for us anymore, but it was an issue while we were trying to reflag some new recruits for PoTime. It became pretty annoying to be delayed cause the trigger was being blown. So, being the motly crew we are we went and farmed everything that was up... heh, what does a PoTime guild do when bored and not in PoTime! A week of that and they left Fennin trigger alone. =P

I have no idea if they went back to killing the trigger. Madrone reads these forums maybe he knows, since I think they are wanting to kill Fennin regularly.

I think he meant that they killed the trigger and started in on the script. Since they killed the FR trigger, they "own" it for the 4 or 5 some hours that the script runs.

When they had more peeps log on, they pulled a mini named during the trigger then went on their way to finish the script.

While what they did doesn't violate any PnP rules (provided they engaged the mini before anyone else), it is a very cheesy thing to do. The Fennin script can be done in under 40 mins with a raidforce of 40.

I see nothing wrong with completing the script THEN pulling a mini. But to do it while the script runs if evil.

Ok, let's see if I can be clearer, sorry, lots of board arguments today over this stuff. /sigh

They killed Fennin trigger approximately 3pm, 2 hours before their raid window, and 4 hours before ours, with a raid force of 18. Between 4pm and 5pm they pulled Pyronis to Fennin prep and killed him. They then went back to the Fennin script. About this time, we zone into Fire to pick off what was left of the minis.

They begin berrating us because we are "knowingly lagging them", because since the last patch 80+ in any plane = rediculous lag. They then ask us to LEAVE Fire while they complete Fennin, and that they would leave up any minis.

We left, head to Water just to find out after they finished the Fennin script, they wiped to Magmaton (the very mini they told us they would leave up). This is supposedly a misunderstanding because our officer never said they accepted the deal (but we did leave the zone).

I don't want any more hatred then what is already created from this incident, I just wanted an unbiased opinion. I'm leaving the guild in question anonymous to keep this clear of any sort of server rants.

Again, I just want clarification from an uncompromised source. If this is something regularly done and accepted then I, for one, will accept it as such. To me though, it seems lame.

Thanks,
Stormy

Heh, this kind of competition was one of the things I hated the most about high end raiding and I've seen lots and lots of this type of behavior in my raiding days on Tunare. Intentionally blown spawns, logging in during the middle of the day expressly to deny another guild a mob, leapfrogging, blah blah blah. The GMs never did anything about any of it unless it was two guilds disputing a mob at the same time. There is no way to prove anything in EQ unless they catch you in the act.

Your situation sounds like it falls into a gray area Storm. Purposely blowing a trigger mob without intending to finish the event is a major no no but from your description it seems like that other guild did this to put that mob on layaway to deny you or another guild the chance to snag it before they got their whole raiding force online.

That doesn't sound like it's against the rules but it's still a pretty lame tactic. You and your guild sound like the honest, upstanding types willing to cooperate with other guilds which is good, but be careful about letting dorks like that walk all over you. The next time you may want to get your crew on a couple a few hours in advance if possible and annihilate as many elemental mobs as you can before that other guild gets on so they get the hint. Sometimes you gotta fight fire with fire!

Definately a violation of the PNP rules. I'ld suggest calling a GM to mediate the situation, explaining very clearly exactly why its violating PNP

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
3. You must comply with arbitration for contested spawns.

There are cases where two or more groups wish to kill the same NPC or hunt in the same area. In these cases, the groups are required to compromise.

If an equitable compromise cannot be reached between the players prior to EverQuest Customer Service Staff involvement, the EQCSR will mandate a compromise. Any such compromise is final and not open to debate. Refusing to abide by these terms will be considered disruption and may result in disciplinary action.

It is therefore strongly suggested that the groups make every attempt to reach a compromise that they can live with prior to involving an EQCSR, who may mandate a compromise that does not suit you to the extent that a player-devised compromise would.

<strong>Note: A "group" in this case is defined as a party of one or more characters that are united in a common belief or goal and are capable of completing that goal.</strong>[/quote]

The key point is in the boldfaced portion - "Group" has to be capable of completing the goal (Fennin). My guild cited this to the GM when another guild tried to block us from a similiar encounter using this trick (their normal raid window is 16 hours later, but they killed a easy trigger mob with 18 to claim the encounter and left those 18 avatars in a safe place for hours while a few persons actively petitioned guides to block my guild whose raid window just opened up). We called in a GM who listened to the stories from both sides and he eventually ordered the other guild to leave even though they triggered the encounter and awarded the encounter to our guild.

My opinion would be that at the point they stop trying to complete the Fennin script (in this case when they pulled Pyronis) then you should just run past them and take over the Fennin encounter.

Probably petitions will fly and a GM will be forced to intervene at which point you will likely end up with a forced arbitration on how these things will work.

For a while on Prexus we had a rule that the first guild to trigger the spawn had half of the time (3 hours) to kill Fennin. If they failed by that time then the other guild (only two elemental guilds at the time) were allowed to take over if they had sufficient numbers in the zone.

Thanks for your opinions guys. I passed all this info on to my guildleader. I think we do intend to play a bit more hardball now that it seems that there is no other choice.

We love to race, don't get me wrong. A good race where both guilds don't get angry, but just try their hardest to prep faster, that is when your blood is pumping and you have to be on your toes.

The skeleton trigger killing team bothered me, but what really bothered me was the stalling.

Yea, unfortuneatly its at most servers that it happens. Some more then others I have come to understand. Not good either way.

And some mob's tend to get "covered and let noone to come between them" then others. Not sure what happened to the play nice rule and integrity ect, last 3 years they have gone down =(

Someone had posted above that it could get argued over with GM with the "play nice rule". That is correct, however with each GM obviously the outcome is different!

Annouying to say the least........

Wyn

Actually in fairness.

What happened time line went like this.
Both guilds know the other will engage and kill the trigger.
Guild 1 its about 4 hours before thier "window" still sufficiewnt time to win event.
Guild 2 its about 2 hours before thier "window"


0) Both Guilds have tiny forces in zone. Guild 1: 10ish
Guild 2: 18ish.

1) Guild 1 Engaged Trigger with an 6 person XP group at tables. Had 4 others on the way to tables. 2 DPS 1 Druid 1 Shaman.

Guild 2 trained a see invis horse mob into castle killing druid on the way. Guild 1 wiped at 20. That killed druid likely the difference.

2) Guild 2 kills trigger. "owns event"

3) Guild 1 assumes minis for evening

4) Guild 2 takes a break from the event to kill Pyro.

5) By point when both guilds were deep in windows. 60+
zone becomes laggy. Guild 2 could have been done with fennin by then, but for thier break.

6) Guild 1 kills 2 minis.

7) Guild 2 requests Guild 1 leave the zone, leaving the last mini up so lag will leave and Fennin die. Mini is to be left for Guild 1

:cool: Guild 1 leaves

9) Guild 2 breaks word and engages mini after Fennin but wipes. Yeah Karma rocks.

10) Guild 1 Returns and kills last mini.


Issue really isn't about engaging trigger early to kill it.
The real issue was by taking a break from Fennin for the mini, did Guild2 open up claim to the other guild to go in on the Fennin script, engage and take it over. Since obviously during that period, Guild2 obviously wasnt "engaging" the Fennin script.

I'm betting a GM might rule that way, since they arent actively doing the Fennin event.

Guild 1 kills trigger with skeleton force to claim cycle.
Guild 2 has raid force in zone ready to kill cycle but cannot becuase guild 1 "owns" cycle from killing trigger.

Petition. The gm should tell guild 1 to engage the cycle because they triggered and should have raid force there when they trigger it to kill it.

One thing is to own a cycle or spawn you have to have "raid force" there in zone to kill it. Gm's have been known to tell guilds argueing over spawns that they must buff and engage mob now as they cannot "hold" a spawn indefinately.
Petition is your friend. If you are there in force to kill a spawn and some guild is cockblocking with a skellie crew petition and tell gm you are willing to give them first shot at the mob but they have to attempt NOW not in 3 hours because if they are not willling to engage now you are.

It's not quite that simple with Fennin because of all the trash clearing involved.

You could start Fennin with 10 people, and still be making progress on the event as more and more show up, to have enough to kill in the alloted 6 hour block. Cursed was same
way at ssra. 1 Group TMs and by time you were finished with TMs have raid force there. And GM rulings on the SSRA level backed this strategy up.

>Both< guilds actually tried the trigger. Guild1 wiping (partially due to accidentle gib training by the 2nd) who proceeded to do the trigger before they could kill fennin.
It was about 3/4 Hours before Guild1s usual time for force.
And about 2 hours before Guild2s. Either Guild would have had sufficient time in 6 hour window to finish the event. Both compenent enough to win.

The real rule question is... Guild 2 who killed the trigger. Took a break from the event to kill a mini (pyro, 1 of 4 or 5 up) By "unengaing" to "engage" a mini. Would a GM have allowed Guild1 to take over the Fennin event.

The other question is more ethical related. Guild2's break for Pyro cost them time. As more and more people from both Guilds entered the zone (for minis, or fennin) the zone became more laggy. To the point that Guild2 was wiping to fennin supposedly due to lag. Again, if they didn't take a break they could have been done before the lag got this bad.
Guild2 of course, wanted Guild1 to leave to remove the lag.

The final ethical question Guild2 requested Guild1 leave the zone to reduce lag so Guild2 could finish fennin. There was still 1 mini left up that Guild2 promised to leave up. Guild2 lied of course and after finishing fennin proceeded to attempt the mini. Karma kicked in though and they lost. Guild1 quickly raced back and before the CR could be done/recovered killed the mini.

Ultimately, VI has idiotic programmers who don't understand that raid mobs that need 40+ 50+ 60+ (Cursed/Fennin/etc) shouldnt be started with scripts that only require 1/2 groups or less.

I do think it's fair to mention though that Guild1 (my guild) only tried the skeleton crew thing because we've lost a ton of Fennin's due to Guild2's consistant trigger camping/killing. We decided to try and beat them at their game since we had a few people at the tables doing exp (as I hear it, as I was not there). We in fact would prefer an agreement between guilds that didn't permit early killing of the trigger. Or atleast one that required a reasonable force 40-60 or so. Alas, that is not to be ;)

Stormy

My opinion would be that taking a skeleton crew to kill the trigger, slowly working at the event while adding people to the raid then finally killing Fennin at the end is rather lame but within the rules.

However if they take a break to kill a mini then they have stopped working towards Fennin and that would be an ideal time to just run past them and take over the Fennin event. Reporting some text of the other guild fighting the mini would be a good idea so that you can later prove to a GM (since the first guild will almost certainly petition) that they took a break to fight the mini.

If you get trained at any time then use /report to send as much detail on the training incident as possible to the GM’s and then petition (btw the whole guild petitioning at once is likely to just annoy the GM a great deal so it would be better for just the guild leader/officers/raid leader to do this).

Equally well if they wipe at any point during the Fennin event then I think you have every right to move in and take over from them. Again /report any useful evidence as this can be used to support your reasons to a GM when the other guild inevitably petition.

If you agree with another guild to leave a zone to reduce lag and that other guild agrees to leave a mini up then again you should /report this agreement. Make sure you are agreeing this with an officer or guild leader of the other guild or it probably won’t be worth much. Even if it doesn’t get you your mini back it will probably help you in future discussions with the GM.

On Prexus the practice of using a skeleton force to block a much larger force capable of killing the mob is known as tollboothing. This is after an infamous incident a couple of years back when a couple of groups from one guild set themselves up between the bank and Tormax’s room and refused to allow the force capable of killing Tormax to pull him past them (i.e. they were a toll booth). This continued for several hours until the two groups had grown to a raid capable force.

From my experience of these kinds of incident /report is your friend. Report as much incriminating text as you can to support your future arguments. You may need to turn off some filters to get the evidence you need. Screenshots will not be accepted as any kind of evidence (hello photoshop!). And /petitioning will rarely get you a result in time unless a GM happens to be already on. Often it is better to take action (but make certain you aren’t breaking any rules yourself) and argue about the matter with the GM’s later and come to an agreement with the GM as to how these incidents will be resolved in future. If the other guild tries to break these GM sanctioned agreements then remember /report. Don’t lose your temper, and if anyone swears at you then a quick /report and /petition is any easy way to get a warning on their account.

In an ideal world things won’t come to this and it is far better if you can come to an amicable agreement between yourselves. Unfortunately life isn’t always like that.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> Ultimately, VI has idiotic programmers who don't understand that raid mobs that need 40+ 50+ 60+ (Cursed/Fennin/etc) shouldnt be started with scripts that only require 1/2 groups or less.[/quote]

I think these events were designed on purpose to do just that. Remember that it only takes 18 to do everything but FR himself (just takes longer).

While I agree that pulling a mini in the middle of running the script is cheesy and greedy, it shouldn't be an argument for making the script start more difficult.

On the other hand, I would prefer raidforce to be able to kill the Avatar of Water's trigger considering that it's a blowable spawn. Well ... Blowable like Emp or Cursed.

at least the coirnav event was changed...before you could just kill the trigger and zone out and it would be down for days. that never happened, that i heard of, on my server, Drinal. but i'm sure it happened elsewhere.

i like Trevize's idea tho. :cool: that would certainly end the skeleton crew trigger happy folks. hehe. but perhaps, with more and more people in the ele planes, the event should be looked at. perhaps to prevent these types of occurences. ie. less time to complete it...or each phase of the ring having a smaller timer. /shrug