View Full Forums : Those whiney druids.....


Stewwy
08-20-2003, 09:14 AM
I lurk on the cleric boards and post alot on enchanter boards, though nothing compared to my presence here, and i have found something interesting.

Other classes hate us for various reasons, and that I won't go into. That is their problem.

The point is I see negative comments about druids from So many classes, and we get flamed on their boards. So what? It's their boards. I would like to point out a trend I am seeing though.

Druid's and the Druid Grove
1) Does not support or encourage class bashing/envy/hatred. Maybe at one time it was common here, but not any more. As a matter of fact when someone starts class bashing, they are put down by the vocal majority on this board as not being constructive to the druid cause (GOOD thing).
2) Do not typically post often on other class boards.
3) DG attracks all classes to post here. Most are constructive by we draw amny trolls too.
4) DG draws MANY more trolls than other class boards.

Other class boards
1) Burn druids in effigy.
2) Call us whiners ("Whiner's Grove")
3) Multiple classes see us as enemy #1, not just a single class. (Enchanters, clerics, necromancers, wizards) Mages are happy we are here because it makes the wizards ignore them.
4) Class bash druids all the time.
5) Have a minimal perspective of what it means to be a druid.
6) Perceive almost every druid as a DrooD or a mindless nimphe. More often the former.


Honestly the more I read of other class boards the more I am amazed at the misconceptions and out and out misundertsanding of our class. That 3-4 separate classes see us as their #1 competition, I don't know whether to take as a compliment or a horrible caster balance issue.

All in all I find is disheartening that other classes would rather bash us as opposed to working hard on their own issues. No other class puts the effort into upgrading and undertsanding the needs of their class than the druid. Enchanters come the closest.

I posted this because my lurking have made me want to correct some of the perspectives on the other boards, but I know it would be pointless.

I am sharing my dismay.

Panamah
08-20-2003, 09:22 AM
You should see the battles between rangers and rogues! And I think Warriors and SK's and Knight's get into it too.

The rangers are really scrappy now though. There's a lot of perception out there that they've gotten overpowered and whenever it gets mentioned on any class forum some ranger will unlurk and a scuffle ensues. Actually, same thing with Paladins. The clerics were discussing that warriors need to be fixed with their taunting and then a paladin pipes in and now it's a scuffle.

Druids, yeah... everyone picks on you guys. It's sort of like racial jokes. One race gets stereotyped a certain way before long you hear people making jokes, calling other people that race to insult them and so on. There's some pretty silly, unthinking, knuckle-draggers out there.

chenier
08-20-2003, 09:42 AM
Boards that allow the misconception that "druids are dr00ds and they are just whiners" are not worth my time. Phooie on them.

However, I love the fact that we have regular non-druid posters (Panamah, Cantatus, etc.) and great, lively druid- as well as broad game discussions. And I think that that has come from the DG community, raising the standard of discussion (well, the uber debate is getting old, but there have certainly been some interesting comments made along the way).

Way to go, guys! Don't let other class boards and their blind eye to who we really are bother you. And much druid wuv to our non druid regulars! (We know deep down, you really want a leaf blower /nod)

DigginsEQ
08-20-2003, 11:23 AM
>>>Honestly the more I read of other class boards the more I am amazed at the misconceptions and out and out misundertsanding of our class. That 3-4 separate classes see us as their #1 competition, I don't know whether to take as a compliment or a horrible caster balance issue.

It is disheartening how universally disparaged the druid class is by just about every other class. Druids are the whipping boys of EQ it seems.

I was lurking over at the main necro and mage boards last night and it was incredible the sheer amount of vitriol those players have for our class. Every fifth thread or so would have somebody making some snide remark about a bad encounter with a "drOOd" or how at least that jerk that scammed you wasn't as bad as a druid etc etc. I see similar remarks on Steel Warrior and I bet probably every other class board is the same way.

There seems to be this everlasting misperception that druids are an easy gimp class and only lazy, antisocial, whining players make up the druid population.

Maybe it's the server I played on(Tunare) but I found that wasn't true at all. Yes, there were some real cretins as in every class, but the majority were cool, friendly folk for the most part. Laugh if you will, but I also believe our great flexibility in the areas of healing, nuking and minor crowd control actually make us one of the more challenging and fun classes to play on raids and groups as opposed to one dimensional classes like warriors and clerics. I've played all sorts of classes in both situations and I still found my druid to be the most enjoyable.

Stewwy
08-20-2003, 11:41 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>However, I love the fact that we have regular non-druid posters (Panamah, Cantatus, etc.) and great, lively druid- as well as broad game discussions. And I think that that has come from the DG community, raising the standard of discussion (well, the uber debate is getting old, but there have certainly been some interesting comments made along the way).[/quote]

This is what I am talking about Chenier. We have some really classy indibviduals who come and comment on our boards that do not play a druid as a main and try to give the perspective of their class to participate in the discussions.

Why?

It's because, IMO, we hold well thought out discussions on important issues. Excluding the individuals who love to argue just to argue. The uber vs casual debates are just silly, but barring them most of the discussions and call for information lead to thought provoking discussion through their creativity.

Panamah
08-20-2003, 11:48 AM
Well yeah, the discussion is good on this message forum! Smart peoples here.

But I'd argue that the uber/casual arguments are not silly in and of themselves. They usual devolve into some degree of silliness and name calling and stereotyping and people being weenies (on both sides) at some point, but the issue that is being discussed is anything but silly to the people concerned.

Autumn10
08-20-2003, 03:25 PM
Panamah isn't a druid? Hmmm...

Panamah
08-20-2003, 03:31 PM
I am a DERFP. (Dark Elven Rogue of the Female Persuassion)

But I do play a druid on TV. Seriously, I used to have as my main character, up until sometime in Velious, a druid. She's level 60 with a handful or so of AA's. But I'm pretty out-of-touch with the druid experience.

Stewwy
08-20-2003, 03:57 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>But I'd argue that the uber/casual arguments are not silly in and of themselves. They usual devolve into some degree of silliness and name calling and stereotyping and people being weenies (on both sides) at some point, but the issue that is being discussed is anything but silly to the people concerned.[/quote]

Yeah that's what I meant.......the childish arguing is bad.......the issue has merit but the discussions have always gotten bogged down in too much passion.

chenier
08-20-2003, 05:26 PM
<strong>the childish arguing is bad.......the issue has merit but the discussions have always gotten bogged down in too much passion</strong>
True, but they were game-wide discussions - not druid specific.

Or something. Um. Yeah. We rule! /nod

Accretion
08-20-2003, 07:30 PM
I love TDG. I've been reading/posting here for a couple years now and the humor, knowledge and game info posted here are top-notch. However, I must admit that I've started to look other places to find strategy and technique discussions. In some respect, we're victims of our own success in that SOE routinely reads us and as a result nerfs the crap out of our posted stuffs while other boards go into precise detail with nary a nerf in sight. *sigh* Oh well.

Elder Primero Aventurero
65 Druid

Aidon Rufflefuzz
08-20-2003, 09:28 PM
While I haven't been to Graffe's in some time (They banned me for repeatedly pointing out that Whizbang and erm...I forget the other idiot's name, were druid hating fools who did not grok the game in fullness), it used to be, by far, the most druid hating board around.

Clerics were a close second, followed by Shaman =D


Rangers, I've noticed, generally don't dislike Druids that much...since eventually get get all our cool chit anyways.

This board has never gotten to the extreme that other boards have with class hatred.

In fact, its pretty much been limited to Bitter Druids (and our predecessors) responding to specific classes in specific posts (though I'll admit, I long had a rather large amount of Shaman hate, the overpowered bastards).

Araxx Darkroot
08-21-2003, 02:07 AM
Druid hate has a lot more based on actual gameplay than our label as a God Class during Kunark.
There is always competition as to who is a better player, and then some more when the same or similar classes come against each other. The more similarities a class has with another the more confrontations there will be, as one will accuse the other of taking their skills... Dorkiness in its truest form.
That, and as easy as it is to play a druid (badly) makes us the perfect target. Who cares, this is just a game, and those who actually try to place blame on someone when they themselves are lacking need to really get their life into perspective and deal with the issue with its proper priority: this is not real life, just a stoopid game!!!!

The respect this community receives from the powers that be (aka SOE) just adds to the h8. It is like that kid in school you hated who also was the teacher's pet (bad example but a close one nonetheless) and that made us hate them even more. :P

Druid bashing is the flavour of the game, and will always be until all servers are brought down. We should just take it with a pinch of salt and let them forget about their own issues and waste time focusing on us instead of trying to get fixed. Their loss.

BricSummerthorne
08-21-2003, 04:14 AM
I don't think druid-bashing is an issue that can be rationally explained. Why do some people hate <ethnic_group_01>? Possibly some bad experiences in the past, buying into stereotypes, wanting to be accepted by other bashers, or just a convienient outlet for agression. Possibly all of those.

Sure, we're whiny sometimes. However, I can point out a 6-page thread where Wizards are brainstorming ideas for their class. Has it been crosslinked to multiple boards? No. There are huge complaint threads on every pure melee board. Paladins come up with cool ideas. High-level Shamans bitch out the uselessness of group STR. The SK board is notably non-whiny, but as far as the rest, we don't stand out from the pack.

Our social "stigma" is just one of the challenges of the class, yet we don't return it in kind. How many of our posts end with "of course, I could always kill a M0nk! lolz!". In this area, blind hate and prejudice, I am really proud of us that we stand ABOVE the pack.

And frankly, I suspect that our attitude is part and parcel with the amount/quality of attention we get from SOE. Don't hate, emulate.

:)

Lyria Whisperwind
08-21-2003, 05:34 AM
I don't see it being that hard to fathom. Some people see this:

"No other class puts the effort into upgrading and undertsanding the needs of their class than the druid."

as whining, and some see it as necessary work to make SOE respond. If no classes did this "work", though, no other classes would be able to complain about SOE listening to one over another, and SOE would be forced to learn and balance things on their own. It would certainly not hurt SOE to stop reading class boards and stop talking to uberguild players for 6 months so that they would be forced to test and evaluate by themselves without taking the lazy way out.

Lyria Whisperwind
08-21-2003, 05:43 AM
Other classes also are taking some of their cues from things like this:

necro.eqclasses.com/forum...C_ID=20558 (http://necro.eqclasses.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20558)

kineada
08-21-2003, 08:58 AM
You know it's funny. While druid bashing is rampant outside of EQ, I really haven't experienced it inside EQ. Sure, you get the bad apples every now and again, but as a general rule, most people are nice and will respect a druid's abilities and the druid's ability to use them.

Then again, I read a lot of TDG. Solo tactics, grouping tactics, hunting guides, dungeon guides, etc. Most druids I meet in game who frequent TDG turn out to be pretty good druids.

rezinn
08-21-2003, 09:02 AM
Druids have had a bad image for a long time. It's just something that happens when you're a mobile, popular class. The idiots get around. Then they take a likening to the word "dr00d." I still see people shout "dr00d lfg." Just like I heard a necro ooc yesterday, "any groups need a cleric mana battery?"
They're exceptions to the class, but everyone sees them and both their class and the rest of the world dislike them. It's easier to just stereotype than start over, that's the way our brain works.

Yeah, it may be unfair.. and I do see it a lot. But I think it is getting better.

BricSummerthorne
08-21-2003, 09:57 AM
<strong> I don't see it being that hard to fathom.</strong>

Really? I sure do. I don't for a moment assume that members of other classes are idiots. I don't think anyone really correlates the level of "whining" with SOE's response.

Paladins got Aego (which they didn't ask for)
Druids got CH (which they asked for)
Shammies got CH (which they didnt ask for)
Casters can't duck on horses (which we ALL asked for)
Clerics didn't get any solo abilities (which they asked for)
Clerics got a new AA (which they didn't ask for)
Wizards got a big Ice nuke (which they asked for)
Monks got the nerf mitigayed (which they asked for)
Warriors have been asking for fixed for MONTHS - nothing.

That's:

3 things received without asking
3 things not received despite asking
3 things asked for and received

Do you see a trend? I don't. In fact, I think people realize that class "whining" is largely irrelevant. SOE does as SOE sees fit. Note the charm nerf and the soloing nerf, which impacted us heavily, despite our supposed PR campaign.

So yeah, I'm confused. I think the "whining" thing is an excuse for the sort of locker-room black humor that is so eloquently displayed in the thread you linked. I think it's just fun to h8. This quote from that thread says it all:

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
<strong>
<em>Originally posted by soulrot</em>

So you went out of your way to hurt somebody just because they do something you don't agree with? Not that I respect e-bayers, since they generally totally miss out on all the depth this game has to offer, but what you did was in no way something to be praised, I'm sorry.
</strong>

dr00d alert!! dr00d alert!!!
[/quote]

God forbid someone has a little empathy and perspective. They might be a dr00d.

Stewwy
08-21-2003, 10:08 AM
Bric,

What you stated so eloquently, I wholeheartedly agree with. I started reading that thread on the necro board and gave up after half way through the second page. At least indibiduals on this board can express themselves without using the Fword in every post. :(

Nimmamen
08-21-2003, 11:10 AM
Your post about those useful to GODLIKE AA's didn't exactly uh, help your image. EVERYONE has @#%$ to OK aa's, with RARELY good ones.

Belkram Marwolf
08-21-2003, 11:38 AM
Paladins were asking for Aego. Check out PoN on the class balancing--6 page thread.

Druids got CH---agreed asked for.
Shamans got Ch--I disagree that they didnt ask for it, they asked for a healing upgrade to coincide with yours, I just dont think what they got what was they had in mind heh

Horses--die Sony
Clerics soloing--true, hammers obsolete inside of a month
New Cleric AA-asked for AAs to be examined, Celestial Regen being regarded as overpriced for what it does. Sorta asked for, sorta not

New wizzie nuke--agree
Monk Mitigation nerf rollback--agree

Warriors are hurtin for certain. Agree

Nothin more to say just dont agree with everything ya said.

Belkram

kineada
08-21-2003, 11:45 AM
A good portion of those godlike AA's would have been given to other classes as well.

1. EXISTING AA SKILLS OTHER CLASSES ALREADY HAVE THAT WOULD BE SUITABLE FOR DRUIDS.

a. Spell Casting Fury Mastery - gives a small increase to the % chance to crit with a nuke.

<strong>Would be shared by mages and wizzies. Not godlike.</strong>

b. Spell Casting Subtlety - lowers aggro.

<strong>Would be shared by clerics and shaman. Not godlike.</strong>


2. ENCHANCED VERSIONS OF EXISTING DRUID AAs

a. Hastened MGB - like improved exodus, it reduces the reuse time.

<strong>Would be shared by pretty much anyone with MGB. Not godlike.</strong>

b. Hastened SotW - like improved exodus, it reduces the reuse time.

<strong>Would improve BST Paragon as well. Not godlike. Maybe hero level, but not even close to demi-god.</strong>

c. Hastened Radiant Cure - like hastened exodus, it reduces the reuse time.

<strong>Druids, clerics and shaman. Not godlike.</strong>

d. Improved Dire Charm - allows the caster to Dire Charm up to a level 51 npc, or higher with additional AA levels.

<strong>Druids, necros and enchanters. Godlike in the most unbalancing way possible. /shiver Would at least make druids and necromancers into demi-gods. Would turn enchanters into power incarnate.</strong>

e. Improved Exodus/Succor - increases area of effect for exodus, succor and similar spells.

<strong>Druids and wizzies. Not godlike.</strong>

3. NEW SKILLS

a. Innate SoW/SoE - like innate camo, but gives you SoW or SoE (my vote is for SoE). Usable indoors.

<strong>Druids, rangers and possibly shamana and beastlords. In a world with Run3, not godlike.</strong>

b. Indoor Affinity - removes the outdoor-only restriction for druid spell, with each level of skill raising the max. spell level affected, so that at level 3 all spells are affected.

<strong>This is classically a druid restriction but would benefit rangers in a minor way as well. Not godlike.</strong>

c. Upgraded Track (class AA, 3 levels, 3/6/9)
-level 1: 15 increase to track, ability to sort by name
-level 2: 15 increase to track, ability to sort by distance
-level 3: 25 increase to track, ability to sort by con (green/lt.blue/dk.blue...)
-18 aa points to get track up to: 180 with full sorting abilities

<strong>Druids and bards. Not godlike.</strong>

d. Innate Cheetah - self or group version of SOC that does not overwrite other runspeed buffs.

<strong>Druid and shaman. Not godlike.</strong>

e. Affliction Adept - extend duration of DoTs by 10% per level of mastery, can train once per level beginning at 61st.

<strong>Druid, shaman, necros and possibly enchanters. Godlike AA for necromancers and shaman. Druids would get minor benefits</strong>

f. Affliction Mastery - decrease mana use for DoTs by 5, 10, 25%, can train at 61st, 63rd, 65th.

<strong>Druid, shaman, necros and possibly enchanters. Godlike AA for necromancers and shaman. Druids would get minor benefits</strong>

g. Affliction Strike - allows a chance of critical (double) damage during each round of a DoT's duration. Chance of critical is 5, 10, 15%.

<strong>Druid, shaman, necros and possibly enchanters. Godlike AA for necromancers and shaman. Druids would get minor benefits</strong>

h. Woodland Steed - summons a unicorn mount with 110% movement rate increase (same as paladin holy steed). Duration: until dismounted.

<strong>Heh, wishful thinking. Really an AA for druids who prefer to exp more than pp. Not godlike. Not likely to be implemented.</strong>

i. Animal Empathy - single target unresistable mesmerization of any mob flagged as animal. Duration 1 minute, Refresh 4 minutes.

<strong>Unresistable mez aa ... Druids, necros and enchanters. Not godlike.</strong>

j. Guardian of Tunare - summons a bear spirit which can be commanded to guard a single player; when that person is attacked, the spirit would impart a 500 point heal each tic for 3 tics, then the spirit disperses. Refresh time 15 minutes.

<strong>Not sure where this came from or it's value. It's could be useful when soloing but frankly, our regens are more than adquate for that. It can be used as a single target HoT every 15 mins. Hardly godlike.</strong>

Yizelar
08-21-2003, 01:06 PM
Druids: Great fun to play, lots of interesting ways to kill things, or they can just sit back and heal a tank.... All in all I like the class and have an alt druid, which is why I lurk here.

As an enchanter I have never felt threatened by a druid.. however I was scared of some of them during Kunark, Velious Era it always scared me to death to group with one, they were always the ones AEing and Doting the mobs I was mezzing in Lower Guk. The average druid seemed umm for lack of better words stupid. Didn't know how to operate in a dungeon, I told many of them to take tier hiney back outside and never return.

The Luclin came along which I loved until they put the ports in...... no more farming loots for joo the druids said..... ports ruined Luclin. But Druids got thier complete heal and became viable group members that could actually contribute something other than a damage shield and down time after they got rezzed from snaring to soon.

PoP, well this expansion cinched it for you guys more good heals, Great DS and a few other good spells, I personally don't mind a druid being MH in a group as long as thier is a paladin tanking :) (gota love the palys).

Druids are an easy class to level if you can make it to 34 you have it made, can be 60 with in weeks which leads to alot of newbish level 60 druids which ruin the good druids reps. On my server PoN is most feared simply because random_Druid_00 is training the zone in every 5 mins. And every time I try to go hunt othmir furs I get trained by mister quad whom doesnt seem to know anything about social arggo. I personally feel the class is heavily overpowered the ability to.. charm, track, heal, port, kill anything that doesnt summon... really is just to much for one class to be able to do in my opinion... but like I said they are great fun to play !

kineada
08-21-2003, 01:49 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Druids are an easy class to level if you can make it to 34 you have it made, can be 60 with in weeks[/quote]

Just another story of how PoP and SoL ruined everything. Back in the Kunark and even SoL days, getting 60 from 34 took months. Hell, it took most of a year for a druid.

And I'd love to see an untwinked druid quad at 34. Without bunches of +mana items, it's pretty close to impossible to kill blues at 34 by quad kiting. Now if you had said ... 49, then maybe.

Druids from levels 34 to 57 won't have access to iCH. That makes grouping them very difficult. The group bonus makes grouping classes much more exp friendly. It's more likely a grouping cleric can outlevel a solo druid /played.

Glarnor
08-21-2003, 05:24 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>But Druids got thier complete heal and became viable group members that could actually contribute something other than a damage shield and down time after they got rezzed from snaring to soon.

PoP, well this expansion cinched it for you guys more good heals, Great DS and a few other good spells, I personally don't mind a druid being MH in a group as long as thier is a paladin tanking (gota love the palys).[/quote]

They *had* to give druids those heals. Doing it before PoP made it seem as if they were upgrading druids, rather than doing it in PoP when it'd been a neccesity if they wanted druids to be considered healers at all. Try to imagine druids in PoP without a significant healing upgrade. Druid healing would be gimped to the point of uselessness, it'd be so bad that you probably wouldn't bother memming Chloro or NT. Heck, most of the higher tiered mobs do more damage in one round of hits on a druid than either of them heal.

Yizelar
08-22-2003, 03:52 AM
As a matter of fact I started a new druid on the TP server alone, untwinked, once I got around 30 I killed a few HG's went to the bazaar and got a decent suit of armor headed out to EW and commenced to killing ulthorks with much ease. Sure there were a few tight ones but I still squeaked by went from 34 to 46 with in 2 weeks with out even trying hard. It only takes a few hundred PP to make a decent druid.

BricSummerthorne
08-22-2003, 05:22 AM
<em>Nimmamen said:</em>
<strong> Your post about those useful to GODLIKE AA's didn't exactly uh, help your image. EVERYONE has @#%$ to OK aa's, with RARELY good ones.</strong>

And everyone complains about them. Every single board has posts where they ask for better AA's. Let's try this: You name 3 classes, I will link you the "new AA" posts. Give it a shot.

<em>Belkram said:</em>
<strong> Paladins were asking for Aego. Check out PoN on the class balancing--6 page thread</strong>

I may have missed that, would you link it? On Shaman, I see your point, but "healing upgrade" seems much less controversial than "Complete Heal", which is why I made the distinction.

<em>Yizelar said:</em>
<strong> Druids are an easy class to level if you can make it to 34 you have it made, can be 60 with in weeks which leads to alot of newbish level 60 druids which ruin the good druids reps. On my server PoN is most feared simply because random_Druid_00 is training the zone in every 5 mins. And every time I try to go hunt othmir furs I get trained by mister quad whom doesnt seem to know anything about social arggo.</strong>

My wife took an Enchanter from 1 to 50 in four weeks. Now she's a slower, in PoP, with a dungeon expansion on the way. I'm sure she could hit 65 fairly easily, if she wasn't saddled with me :) . More to the point, your PoN training comment is relevant to the discussion.

PoN and PoI. Both deadly zone-ins. PoN is soloable, PoI is absolutely not. Now somehow, PoN is feared simply because of random_Druid_01, and PoI is feared because...what? What's the excuse for PoI?

It sounds like you're saying, if there were NO soloing Druids in PoN, the zone would not be feared. C'mon, that's bull****. Everybody trains the PoN zone. Druids, Bards, Enchanters, Paladins, Warriors, Clerics, and anyone else who's group just broke up. It's design makes it deadly.

Anyone who's been in PoN knows that it can't support enough Druids to train "every 5 minutes". Even every 20 minutes would mean you had a bunch of <em>unusually</em> idiotic Druids in the zone. I have seen Stalkers held for HOURS, and that's the toughest Druid camp in PoN.

If Druids COULD solo in PoI, would you blame us for those trains?

Now, I grant you, Druids do quad over people. We're the second most popular class after Warriors, we're going to have a lot of jerks. But I'm a Druid, and I spend time in these contested areas, and the problem is no where near as bad as people make it out to be. Well...except for Rathe Mtns, *I've* been furious at Druids in Rathe. Arrgh.

What is the basis for blowing these events out of proportion? That's what I don't get. Even your comment about "overpowered" - I'm sure you expected someone to rise to the bait. You have to know none of us reading this have likely caused you grief, and yet you take a shot.

Why so angry at us? Is it really because you got quadded over?

Accretion
08-22-2003, 08:04 AM
Many of theses "whiney dr00ds" responses make me want to troll over to other class boards and start to pick away at them with the same over-used stereotypes and see how long it takes them to "whine" in return.

Elder Primero Aventurero
65 Druid

Panamah
08-22-2003, 08:06 AM
Every class message forum, I visit a few of them, has their "wish lists" that oftentimes have some pretty wild wishes in them. I chalk it up to people day-dreaming.

Nimmamen
08-22-2003, 08:10 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
And everyone complains about them. Every single board has posts where they ask for better AA's. Let's try this: You name 3 classes, I will link you the "new AA" posts. Give it a shot.[/quote]
are they stickied or just random posts..

BricSummerthorne
08-22-2003, 08:33 AM
<strong>are they stickied or just random posts..</strong>

Oho! We are the Sticky Whiners! ;)

Ok, let's compromise. On the first page. Note that I have NOT checked recently, and won't squirm out of being wrong.

Note also, that if you check before naming them, you aren't really sure.

Ok, go :)

Panamah
08-22-2003, 08:57 AM
EQClerics has one stickied.
Enchanters used to have their issue related thread stickied.
Paladins in their Spells/AA's forum.
SK's have their own Class Balance forums.
As do warriors and wizards.
Necros forum is a mess... how do they read that?

Anyway, the point is all classes have their complaints. It's subjective about whether or not they're valid or not. Some are silly, some have merit.

Yizelar
08-22-2003, 01:18 PM
I dont doubt someone can take a chanter form 1 to 50 in 4 weeks. It took me a while, but i started out with my newbie robe dagger and thats it. But chanters really don't have a viable way to make large amounts of cash in a short time (casting clarity pfft gimme a break) KEI can make you some cash but you have to be level 60 for that. Druids can track named and if they know what they are doing pull them half way across the zone to the wall and kill them or if they are really good kill them where they stand. My little druid made enough cash in a month to equip herself to 220 wis unbuffed and buy armor and a fbss for the paladin I planned to make.

As far as druids being whiners..... well I havent seen a class board that isnt... espcially enchanters on castersr realm..

PoI that totally bad design... PoN may not be as bad as it was when I leveled there, but every time I was trained it was by a druid trying to charm kite or quad the nightstalkers... I almost wish every damn mob in all the planes summoned so none could solo.

But honestly in my personal opinion Druids are the most powerful, flexible class in the game and doesnt have a thing to whine about. I don't play one every day and im sure there are some short comings, but Druids have it really well these days well enough that any short comings are minor to say the least.

Oh and im not angry at druids, I am just sharing my veiws on the class. Even though this is the rant section I am trying to do it in a respectful manner. I am angry at the stupid ass druids I have ran across and continue to run across on a daily basis.

Panamah
08-22-2003, 01:28 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>But honestly in my personal opinion Druids are the most powerful, flexible class in the game and doesnt have a thing to whine about.[/quote]

Powerful, as in how?

They're good soloers, no doubt about it. But as far as what they bring to groups and raids, they're pretty well balanced. Not exactly in huge demand in hard-core raiding guilds. They have problems getting spots in groups often... How is that most powerful and flexible?

Yizelar
08-22-2003, 03:48 PM
I have never seen a druid having any more of a problem getting a group (not since late Luclin) than any other class, before complete heal they had nothing to offer. As an enchanter you would think i wouldnt have any trouble getting a group but I do more often than not. I have had more druids being the MH in my group than I have clerics.... As for not being wanted in the raid enviroment, I don't believe thats true.... the problem is you picked a class to play that everyone and their brother picks, the servers are saturated (sp) with druids I cant turn a corner and not trip over one.

Panamah
08-22-2003, 04:47 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I have never seen a druid having any more of a problem getting a group (not since late Luclin) than any other class,[/quote]

I have. I've had druid friends go ungrouped for hours while enchanters and clerics and shammies get snatched up. I stopped playing my druid for this reason (but that was long ago). Yes, I play cleric and shammy and enchanter (all level 60+) so I know what I'm talking about. They get asked to join groups BEFORE I turn on the LFG flag.

You still haven't told us what is so overpowered about druids? I don't think they have a single skill that another class can't do better.

I didn't say they weren't wanted in raiding guilds, they are nowadays but nothing like wizards and clerics are.

I don't see how you can equate a class being overcrowded with being overpowered. Anyways, I'd be willing to bet there's more clerics than druids out there.

Menlaiene
08-22-2003, 04:53 PM
The old stereotype of druids being the most common class is no longer true. Many many former druids have quit (like myself) to play a more desirable character. Clerics, enchanters, and shamans have all become extremely common because of their high desirability. Yet my cleric and my enchanter can both find groups in 20 minutes or less almost every time. My druid, on the other hand, could easily look for a group for five hours at a time and not get a single tell (except for buffs/ports/PLing).

Accretion
08-22-2003, 06:49 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I have never seen a druid having any more of a problem getting a group (not since late Luclin) than any other class, before complete heal they had nothing to offer. As an enchanter you would think i wouldnt have any trouble getting a group but I do more often than not.[/quote]You have had a VERY abnormal experience then. A slower is absolutely essential for ANY PoP group. As for Druids and iCH, they can hold up fine when a cleric isn't around or the tank is pretty beefy but I've never seen a Druid get an invite over a cleric. Ever.

I have to agree that Druids are better off on raids now, although Evoc Druids are a bit less desirable and haven't kept pace with their Mage and Wizard counterparts.

Elder Primero Aventurero
65 Druid

Yizelar
08-22-2003, 07:19 PM
Well maybe its just my server, but I can never seem to find a cleric when I need one for a group, and see many druids acting as MH. Personally I would rather have that 9 than a virtue :P. Maybe you don't see your class as overpowered but I still firmly believe that the abilities to, charm, snare, heal, track, quad, root/rot are to many skills for one class to posses.

Now name another class with all those abilities.....

Enchater, charm...
Mage, charm (very situationally)
Wizard Quad/port
Necro, Fearkite/snare/charm/maybe root/rot ?/and i dont count what they do as a heal
Bard, charm/swarmkite(which i see as totally broken)
Cleric, heal
Shaman heal(poorly), Root/rot

no one comes even close to that list of abilities, abilities that can rake in cash in truck loads if used properly. That can provide several services to any group and be an VALUBLE group member

Nimmamen
08-22-2003, 07:36 PM
I'll admit i don't keep tabs on very many class boards. I usally watch TGD, eqnecro, and magetower, and FoH boards to see what sucks in PoTime.

magetower has some random people that want mini-concussion, and other odd things that are out of line, there are no real changes the entire community wants, except that their post 50 fire pets should be fixed, and necros seem to mostly be after crit dots (which should apply to druids,) and recently the ability to fear again. Compared to TGD they seem pretty tame, but then again i probably don't browse the other greedy class boards :P

anyway heres a random three: shaman, wizard, bard.

Panamah
08-22-2003, 07:49 PM
Lets see... you're an enchanter Yizelar? What other class can slow, charm, buff mana, mez, stun, harmonize indoors, runes, nuke, dot, manage aggro, drain mana, root and use pets?

That's kind of a silly thing to say, Yiz. Enchanters get a long list of abilities too, some classes overlap with you a little, but none can do them all, just like you pointed out with druids. In fact, omg! All classes are like that. They have skills they excell at, ones that are secondary, ones that they share with a few other classes. Most non-hybrid classes have at least 1 skill that no other class can do as well. Except druids. They don't have any.

The reason no one can find clerics is because they get snapped up for groups first.

Lets see, don't think you can still do it, but enchanters were soloing Boss mobs in BoT for quite some time. And I've been in tankless/meleeless groups because we've had a chanter provide the tank with a charmed critter that was far better than any player tank could be. I know that's been nerfed, as it should have been, but I still think an enchanter calling druids overpowered borders on hilarious.

Belkram Marwolf
08-23-2003, 12:06 AM
Enjoy. Not sure why I need to link it, not like I need to bs about something like this but here is the link from PoN where they asked for Aego. Started out as a comparison of buffs.


pub148.ezboard.com/fpalad...=493.topic (http://pub148.ezboard.com/fpaladinsofnorrathfrm21.showMessage?topicID=493.to pic)


Belkram

Yizelar
08-23-2003, 07:07 AM
I was never one of those enchanters and never liked what they were doing, I believe skipping content and killing boss mobs with one or 2 people is entirely wrong. I knew the moment I learned enchanter had a high level charm for PoP what was going to happen. We got nerfed and caused every other class with charm to get nerf (except bards) because of our own greed, just like wizards got mana burn nerfed.

And I speak of abilities to kill a mob and keep yourself alive not buffs.... sure I can use a mez that eats 300+ mana and bounces off every other mob I throw it at..... stun HAH we dont have 1 not 1 single stun that work in PoP and lets don't even talk about enchanter dots they are so mana inefficent i shouldnt have even bothered scribing them they have been in the back of my spell book since I bought them. Any class can manage arggo, if they have half a brain, damn near any class can root, pets (your refering to the animation the one that cant even tank a low level PoJ mob ? )

Runes are the only single thing off that list that increases my ability to slay mobs and keep my ass alive. Mezzing gets me killed more often than not....

Panamah
08-23-2003, 07:34 AM
There! Just like you went through that list of abilities I posted and found fault and pointed out the ones another class can do better, druids can do the same thing. The only difference is, there are things enchanters can do better than any other class. Druids don't have a thing they can do that another class can do better.

I'm not sure what the basis of your jealousy is, but I don't think it's grounded in reality.

Oh man, I forgot one of your best abilities, incredibly fast casting, unresistable, mana-cheap magic debuff.

Nimmamen
08-23-2003, 07:35 AM
... which causes them to die just as fast.

FyyrLuStorm
08-23-2003, 11:38 AM
Druids don't have a thing they can do that another class can do better.

We can turn people into wolves who do not want to be wolves better than ANY other class. And we are going to even do it better in September.

Panamah
08-23-2003, 11:43 AM
Damn you! Here I am sticking up for you guys and you have to ensnare me in your damn facts. :p

FyyrLuStorm
08-23-2003, 12:49 PM
hehe,

I love my Rogues out in front of me instead of behind, any day.

If you put a Chanter in JBoots at level 12, is there any more powerful, across the board, class than that?

PVP-ability owns.
Solo-ability owns.
Group-ability owns.
Raid-ability owns.

BricSummerthorne
08-24-2003, 12:17 AM
<em>Belkram,</em>

I wasn't assuming you made it up. I just couldn't find the thread. :)

<em>Nimmamen,</em>

On the first page, in General Discussion, Shaman aren't asking for anything, nor are Bards. Wizards have at least 2 fairly long request threads. So, I'll concede every class isn't having active "request" discussions.

This:
<strong>Necros seem to mostly be after crit dots (which should apply to druids,) and recently the ability to fear again. Compared to TGD they seem pretty tame</strong>

is an interesting perspective. It sounds fairly reasonable, and in fact is probably a good summation of the Necro boards. However, I also see requests for Dot Foci, SCF for Dots, SCFM for Dots, FoM for Dots and Cold-based Dots.

Then there's this (http://necro.eqclasses.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21369) thread that is asking for Wizard self-ports. So far it's 50% for, 50% against.

There's the List for Absor. Please have a look. (http://necro.eqclasses.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20909), which has a fairly large array of requests, including Track Undead, and this quote:

"The ONLY saving grace we have is FD (Deathpeace)..... our damage output is 1/2 of where it really should be".

The point is, you can describe any community in flattering or unflattering terms. You chose mild terms to describe EQ Necros. You could similarly describe TDG's focus as "They are most concerned about grouping issues, with aggro as a secondary consideration" (imo).

Calling TDG "Greedy" is just as irrational as saying, "Necros want to be Undead Wizard-Rangers with twice the DPS.". We're no greedier than any other class, just as Necros want their main form of damage to be treated consistently with other forms.

<em>Yizelar,</em>

Panamah pretty much nailed it. Several classes can be said to have large, flexible skill sets. People outside the class tend to overestimate these, those inside may underestimate them.

The number of abilities isn't even necessarily a measure of power. In a Tier 1 group, a 49 Shaman is more powerful than a 59 Druid. I have seen one Haste, Slow and main heal (Stoic + Supo heal). All I did was nuke and pull, his Haste adding as much DPS as my nuking. That's with a 10 level difference, mind you.

The entire endgame of EQ is built off ONE ability - Complete Heal. Removing that spell would completely break the game. Removing Druid wolfform, regen, and damage shields would have negligible effects.

So which is more "powerful"? I don't know that the question is really meaningful.

Panamah
08-24-2003, 07:36 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
If you put a Chanter in JBoots at level 12, is there any more powerful, across the board, class than that?
[/quote]

Wait a minnit... I got a level 12 chanter, you mean if I put her in jboots I could own?

Glarnor
08-24-2003, 08:51 AM
Encs tend to (or at least tended to before all the xp boosts) have a hard time getting a group until level 16 when they get breeze and haste. *grin*

Aaeamdar
08-24-2003, 09:13 PM
Clerics suck.

Belkram Marwolf
08-26-2003, 07:08 AM
Classy as always Aaeamader. I humbly submit you are trolling and even for a rant forum its out of line.

But lets go with your attitude sucks. Its easier for you to understand.

Belkram

Aaeamdar
08-26-2003, 07:40 AM
I seem to have one on my hook. Should I start to reel it in?

chenier
08-26-2003, 08:34 AM
/eye

Demasia
08-26-2003, 09:37 AM
Comparing enchanters and druids? /boggle

I would rather charm with my druid any day because of Ensnare and the duration of the charm, but my chanter can charm any day and anywhere.

My chanter does get snatched rather quickly for groups and it has been a long time since I have even had to LFG before a group was offered. However, there is a direct relationship between how quickly a chanter gets a pick up group and how many shamans are available. My druid gets groups because of relationships and I never bother to LFG with him because I see there are always plenty already hopelessly waiting. For conventional grouping, I recognize that my druid is a substitute class that competes with many classes and my chanter enjoys preference in a slot where there are only a couple classes than can compete.

I enjoyed my chanter more when stuns worked, their were plenty of casters to steal mana from and mezzes were the most efficient and effective means of CC in high volume content as opposed to the front end CC (Pacification/Harmony) one insane DPS mob at a time content in PoP. I enjoy my druid more in small groups of 3-4 and where 7 of the 8 spell gems are used in each engagement.

With both, I very much enjoy using DC pets and have a bias to zones where I can obtain them readily. In this thread and many times before people have asked why the level 46 max hasn't been adjusted so the AA can be used in the revamp zones wher there are no level 46 mobs to DC and to ramp the ability in parity as the player levels have improved other AAs existing pre-PoP. I agree the DC AA should always be an option in every zone (it isn't now), but I think raising the limit would enable us to DC mobs that have DPS well beyond what the DC bait mobs dish out and there would be no mobs to hunt in some zones because everyone would get DC. I might have exxagerated it a bit, but the limited number of DCable mobs raises arguement for making DC pets summoned rather than charmed.

Druids aren't overpowered. However, chanters have lost many core abilities and have a legitimate gripe. They are both useful and fun to play still.

Ligge
08-26-2003, 09:48 AM
Whiners!

Stormfront
08-26-2003, 12:45 PM
As if summoned, I just got into a defensive mode on my server boards after someone attacked druids with generalizations. Adding content here for your enjoyment!

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>My guess is he was soloing, or PL'ing himself, got whiney because he had to share spawns, and decided to grief with the druid. I know how druids think; I played one for three years before giving my account away, so I had to deal with them in most of the zones I went to. I knew pretty much all of them, and 95% of them were morons and shared this mentality.[/quote]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
That's not odd, I've never heard of you, either. Probably because you were one of "those" druids that were out quad- kiting your way to the top as fast as you could. I spent 99% of my career grouped. Anytime you want a whoopin, I'd be glad to oblige. Until you're spoken to, shut up.[/quote]



My response:

Generalizations abound! Whee! You are a presumptious lil @#%$ aren't you? First of all, I quadded exactly 2 levels from 51-53, simply becuase it was impossible at the time to get a group as an unguilded druid (which I was at the time since I had just gotten back from a short break). I grew up as a grouping druid, and always have been a grouping druid.

Would it be so flipping hard to ask a question about someone besides making bogus, bull**** assumptions? Are you that short-sighted?

Let me make some assumptions!

Since you are biased to classes in EQ, I'm going to assume that you are also rascist in RL. Further more, since you threatened to beat my ass, I'm gonna also assume that you are a hatemonger that is a member of the KKK and goes around beating up anyone that doesn't look like him, because he's too dense to realize that just because something is not the same as him, doesn't take any of his value away. So no reason to huddle in the corner wondering why you don't rate anymore, you don't have to hate anymore. You are cured.

Grow up. Assumptions and generalizations are worthless, and someone who spews them in every other sentence.. well.. they are worthless too.

Panamah
08-26-2003, 01:17 PM
Server message forums are the cesspools of EQ. At least for my server it's the case 99.9% of the time.

BricSummerthorne
08-26-2003, 01:23 PM
<strong>I know how druids think;</strong>

That was the funniest part.

Storm, you should ask him why he KS'd and trained people. Since 95% of us do it, any denial is probably a lie ;) .

Watch the backpedaling start. :)

Stormfront
08-26-2003, 01:26 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Storm, you should ask him why he KS'd and trained people. Since 95% of us do it, any denial is probably a lie [/quote]

I stopped bothering actually, because these people have ZERO decency. He'd admit he trained and probably where a smug smile while doing it.

Worthless POS :D

kineada
08-26-2003, 02:49 PM
We KS because our nukes are powah. We train because we run fast.

polzevog
08-27-2003, 10:49 AM
I've had the "overpowered" argument more times than I care to think on.. I agree with many posters in that it all boils down to which side of the fence you're on, it's all perspective.

I recall an accomplished sax player saying "the sax is one of the easiest instruments to learn to play but one of the hardest to learn to play well." I've always looked at druids the same way. In the hands of a skilled player, a druid is certainly a force to be reckoned with! Of course, the same could be said of all classes.

As far as the overpowered discussion... As far as I'm concerned the only real measure of percieved power is desireability. My standard response to those that whine we're overpowered is to challenge them to go to the zone of thier choice and both of us put up LFG and see who gets a group first. I've yet to have anyone accept the challenge.

Aaeamdar
08-27-2003, 11:17 AM
I saw this in the rules section:

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>2. Posts just to flame will still be removed. (IE: No discussion, just "you're stupid" type of posts). Posts with "you're stupid" embedded within the topic, but with "substance" as well will be tolerated (IE: You're stupid because of ....&quot;) .[/quote]

I was just curious on what "substance" is.

Let me give you an example. If I were to post:

Belkram you are stupid because to the fact that you are a whiney EQCleric troll. In my experience, I have discovered that EQClerics that come over to the Druid's Grove to spread their poison are typically not very bright. They never are able to understand that the entire game has always revolved around their level 39 spell and that the only reason guild tolerate their "my @#%$ don't stink" attitude is because SOE refuses to losen their monopoly on healing. Since you are an EQCleric troll that can't seem to just stick to your worthless Cleric forums, I find it statistically likely that you are an idiot.

O.k. There is the example. I conformed it to the form in rule 2. It calls Belkram an idiot, but then provides substance explain why I find it likely. It also ties in some substance from EQ game mechanics in the part where I explain that Belkran, like all EQCleric trolls, is too stupid to figure out that the whole game revolves around CH. I am worried though, that while it follows the letter of the rule it might be getting close to breaking its spirit. As I would not want to just randomly insult a complete fool like Belkram in such a post, could you please provie me some feedback on this issue. Thanks so much.

Panamah
08-27-2003, 11:18 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I recall an accomplished sax player saying "the sax is one of the easiest instruments to learn to play but one of the hardest to learn to play well." I've always looked at druids the same way. In the hands of a skilled player, a druid is certainly a force to be reckoned with! Of course, the same could be said of all classes.[/quote]
At least it isn't a bagpipe... even when you play it well it still sounds bad!

Stormhaven
08-27-2003, 11:20 AM
I would let that pass as long as you give me a steak. Maybe some fries.

Aaeamdar
08-27-2003, 11:25 AM
I'm a vegetarian. How would you feel about a delicious veggie burger and fries? ;)

Stormhaven
08-27-2003, 12:31 PM
I should ban you on principle =/

Honestly I don't mod Unkempt very much. I've seen some name-calling going on in the threads here, but you've all got a much longer rope to hang yourselves with here. I think most people have that little nagging voice in the back of their mind that tells them "oh crap," when you cross that invisible line. Besides, we said that this would be a low-mod forum anyhow (it's in the rules too!)

Stormfront
08-27-2003, 01:15 PM
*gives the OTHER Stormy a steak, medium-rare*

EDIT: there is something beautiful about being the 69th post...

Belkram Marwolf
09-02-2003, 05:31 AM
Here lets have some more hypothetical fun.

I could say Aaeamadar is a troll. I could attach an explanation to why I think this is so (and dang but you know it wouldnt be that hard with his post content) and make a good case for it. I could also illustrate through his posts that he doesnt contribute to a thread so much as he incites comments from others or makes veiled attempts at breaking the code of conduct here.

As far as your in depth class analysis....you left out backstab, Archery Mastery and Endless Quiver, Slow, Tash, Occusion of Sound, Malo, Ro debuffs, Defensive, group heals and AA group heals, Mass group buffing, crits, agro and de-agro spells, Divine Aura, Lay on Hands, mezz spells, ressurection and damage shields. Clue in, the game doesnt revolve around any one spell anymore. Class mix and interdependcy is what raids and groups are all about.

Aaeamadar, get over your heal envy and address what someones saying, not what class they are.


Belkram Marrwolf

PS another great post about nothing Aaeamadar, try a PM instead of some grandstanding bull**** next time you have a legitimate question.

Deathseekerdan
09-22-2003, 04:04 PM
This guy wuvs you druids.

I remember back in the day, the druids were the class to run away from because they were perceived as the powerclass, so all the doods had one. But you guys are safe from that now, because they're all playing knights. (Shoo, shoo, get out of my class)

Of course, some druids give their class a bad name in a different way. I've been in several groups where I picked a druid healer, and they'd always point out clerics that were looking for a group

I try to get a druid healer for all of my groups, mostly because if I ask them to group, they tend not to give me a list of demands to be met before they join.

Racmoor
09-29-2003, 10:14 AM
LDoN rarely needs a cleric. I'm not saying they can't USE one, I'm saying they don't NEED one. As such, I prefer taking the Main Heal role? Why because if the slower is good, and the tank is smart I do very little healing. Then I do a lot of DPSing and we breeze through the dungeon.

Find a tank with a lifetap proc or two. Slap regen on him, Use Nature's Recovery(the only time I've found it useful) and you'll find you rarely need to heal except on a 4 pull.

One of the best groups I had was bard, 3 rogues, necro and myself. Another good group was pally, shaman, 3 wizards and myself.

Racmoor

Palarran
09-29-2003, 10:44 AM
Also note that Wrath of the Wild is good for timing Nature's Recovery, though it's somewhat dependent on SCR and extended enhancement. By the time I notice Wrath of the Wild has refreshed (4 minutes), it's about time to refresh Nature's Recovery (3 minutes base, 5:10 with +70% duration).