dur.

So basically if you have Pot9 and someone AE buffs it wont refresh it.

If you have bot9 and want to refresh it..again it wont unless you click it off.


Makes it a nightmare when someone dies on a raid....asks for a single 9 then later on AE is done (they dont click it off) and then you have people randomly out of timer sync to the AE 9.


Tils

/sigh as usual fix one thing to break another... :(

Excellent so now we get to waste 1700 mana redoing buffs over and over. COOL

My suggestion is make BoTN cost 0 mana until Sony figures out how to test stuff before gimping in patches.

Yep and they forgot to fix the Pally LDON Virtue : Guidance stacking with pot9 /bot9 problem. Guidance wil still overwrite them I think.

Since the pally Aego is single target, it shouldn't cause too much of a hubaloo. The blessing/protection issue is going to be a pain.

My suggestion is make BoTN cost 0 mana until Sony figures out how to test stuff before gimping in patches.

Is it more of a pain than HoV overwriting 9's? I suspect the answer is no. Basically, we got something but lost another.

I suspect that it has to do with the math they use to determine which overwrites what. I suspect that each buff of a particular type is tested against each other.

Take for example HoV overwriting 9's (before the patch). The test was AC. Virtue, Aego and Temperance all have better AC buffs than 9 which is why they overwrote it.

Now they are using something else to determine priority. Since they can't use hitpoints or AC, what did they use? Maybe some sort of exclusive function similar to the ranger self buff and our DS's.

Have to use some form of rule based set that applies to everything or you expose the game to stacking exploits. That's the problem with the Virtue line. It is better than any one type of buff (hps or AC) but not as good as a combination (9, symbol, WoG is better than Virtue in all stats but at the expense of buff slots).

I'm prolly not smart enough to come up with a rule based system that will allow 9 and virtue to be exclusive WHILE allowing them to overwrite each other. Remember, these rule sets need to be resiliant to stacking exploits as well and they need to apply to the buff families (9, cabbage, natureskin, etc - Virtue, aego, hero, etc).

We have a lot of smart people here at the Grove. If we can come up with a solution that can stand up to criticism (sort of like a thesis defense), then I'm sure that SoE will be happy to use it.

If we can't ... It would be unfair to expect SoE to come up with a satisfactory fix as well.

P.S.

The last thing anyone wants is for SoE to do something that will allow 9's to stack with say ... Aego.

While some people will consider this a boon, we all know that it's cheating.

well if I had to make a choice I'd say put it back to the old way. My guild never uses Virtue anyway.

So basically it just went from bad to worse.

Gaining something you don't use vs loosing something I do use is not a benefit.

Yes I agree with Trev


The problem was bad...but this is even worse than the original problem :(


Tils

oh ugh..../sigh

I think just making group always overwriting single would go a long way to making it better?

- Xylem, E'ci

I hate this new way too, I'd rather have virtue be able to overwrite 9 than this new "improved" version. It cant be that hard to code for group 9 to overwrite single ;p.

Originally posted by Kineada
Since the pally Aego is single target, it shouldn't cause too much of a hubaloo. The blessing/protection issue is going to be a pain.



Is it more of a pain than HoV overwriting 9's? I suspect the answer is no. Basically, we got something but lost another.



Oh yes. its WAY WAY WAY worser.

WAY. Its a nightmare, sorry, but it is.

HoV overwriting BoT9 sucked, aye. But we dont buff HoV anyway on raids anymore. So not THAT much of an issue for me.

But sorry, BoT9 not overwriting PoT9 is a NIGHTMARE. PPL die, get buffed with PoT9, after 2 hours i refresh BoT9 with an new MGB and get PoT9 requests every 5 minutes.

Tubby.

Yes, its much worse now. If they can't make it work right they should just change it back.

I added a line to my hotkey

/rs mgb 9 inc
/rs click off your Virtue AND pot9 if you want
/rs psst don't ask me for pot9 if u didn't click it off !~

One more note you may want to be aware of. Word is that not to mention the obvious stacking issue.. there's also a issue with say refreshing botn over botn and same for potn over potn. If you don't drop the buff prior to casting it.. you still have the timer from the original cast. Casting botn over botn will show it holding.. but you won't have a fresh timer on it. Will be the original. Honestly wish now they just kept it the way it used to be. Virt's never cast on raids we do either so was almost never a issue minus the gung ho happy clerics massing it in odd zones here and there.

Tahlee
Silent Redemption

Sorry I have to say this, I really enjoyed it while it lasted...


The streak of reliable, stable patches has ended.

Not to mention it was so laggy yesterday it was hard to get anything accomplished, but this may be a Bristlebane problem, since we never get any feedback about our particular server issues.

This is a pretty big nuisance. During raids last night, i would see about 20 "you're spell did not take hold" messages after MGB BoT9. Talk about wasting mana.

I am glad virtue doesn't override 9 anymore though. That always annoyed me.

Well... I'd prefer to have it back the old way too. Virtue has overwritten 9 for so long that we have all learned how to deal with it. Creating a new set of rules for us all is pretty inconvenient and mana intensive as well. I believe that the idea of the "fix" was well intentioned, but it may be too complicated for SOE to really do.

I don't want this back the old way. I want them to make it work correctly! :mad:

Originally posted by Tahlee
One more note you may want to be aware of. Word is that not to mention the obvious stacking issue.. there's also a issue with say refreshing botn over botn and same for potn over potn. If you don't drop the buff prior to casting it.. you still have the timer from the original cast. Casting botn over botn will show it holding.. but you won't have a fresh timer on it. Will be the original. Honestly wish now they just kept it the way it used to be. Virt's never cast on raids we do either so was almost never a issue minus the gung ho happy clerics massing it in odd zones here and there.

Tahlee
Silent Redemption

I did not see this last night with BoTN I recasted about 10 minutes early for convenience and it last the full time after that. I do not have duration extenders, I wonder if that could have an effect.

Fo Sur!

For all those people saying how wonderful this new virtue 'fix' for druid's 9.... uggg...

We take 2 steps forward... 3 steps back. I rather have virtue overwriting 9 then the current 'fix'.

We MGB 9... then the deaths starts. So they get their single 9 after reses. Well guess what, next time we AE9... those single ticks are still ticking and they'll ask for it again shortly after MGB went off. GRRR!

Hope this is fixed soon. I haven't logged on today yet from last nites emergency 'mob-dot' death patch tho. Is it still 'working as intended'?

Sea!

i tried it an hour ago. Blessing will still not overwrite single target nines.

Now, I do recognize the problem in that Bo9 won't override single Nines for people in a raid. However, just give those with Po9 30 seconds warning to click off Po9 so Bo9 lands. This should work until they get it fixed.

Yes, it's a headache, but less of a headache than having Nines and Symbol overwritten involuntarily by Virtue or some lesser form.

Originally posted by Scirocco
Yes, it's a headache, but less of a headache than having Nines and Symbol overwritten involuntarily by Virtue or some lesser form. Not really.

Zephyr of Brell works on up to level 65, so both Pot9 and Bot9 are extended by the 8th shawl.

Not really.


Really. :)

Originally posted by Scirocco
Not really.


Really. :) *BEEP* wrong! Getting 72 people to make a sudden change for buffs doesn't work. Explaining WHY they have to click off a buff that they are used to being overwritten takes time and a LOT of repetition, and buffing time at a 4-6 hour raid is when a lot of people go afk for some necessary personal time. Lately I have had people asking for a 9 WHILE we are fighting because theirs wore off since it wasn't overwritten.

I guess your guild is just very disciplined, Scirocco. I'm working with real people and they are creatures of habit. :/

My new hot key =P

/rs Everybody unclick and move south to the druid casting BoTN
/rs If you don't unclick it you'll be taunted by angry druids and told to get Virtue.
/petition BoTN/POTN is bugged FIX IT
/bug BoTN/POTN is bugged FIX IT.
/feedback BoTN/POTN is bugged FIX IT.
/t GM BoTN/POTN is bugged FIX IT. Sorry for the direct tell every time I recast PoTN but bugs like this annoy me much more then my tells annoy you. Thanks =D.

How come people on the test server didnt pickup on this? or did they and SoE ignored the feedback?

Originally posted by oddjob1244
How come people on the test server didnt pickup on this? or did they and SoE ignored the feedback? *sigh* WHEN are people going to learn that Test Server is the name of another mythical god and is equal to the likes of Bertoxxulous or Fennin Ro? SOE names servers after gods. Test Server is simply a lesser god.

Yes, its much worse now. If they can't make it work right they should just change it back.

Agree !!

How come people on the test server didnt pickup on this? or did they and SoE ignored the feedback?
Listen to people on the test server?

What? Are you crazy?

Look, we are far too busy to listen to anyone. Now stop whining and give us your credit card number. Geez, these customers won't shut up, will they?

Our test server driuds usually do a great job and feedback stuff like this. So imho its more likely that SoE didnt fix it.

One thing I do wish our test people would do though is bring stuff like this up before it goes live.....you know. We knew when we had the patch maybe make a post how this could go in and how bad it is.

Sometimes they do that ..but shame it wasnt done for this :/

Isnt a rant to them though. I think they do a great job :)

Tils

To people on test:

When you see changes come for druids post IT and hell ask us to login and TEST it. I've got a druid on test and would be happy to test stuff. I just enver login to test cause I'm busy with my guild. However if I knew some changes were coming I could easily login my second account on my other pc and test stuff.

Also,

Spirit of Eagle will not overwrite Flight of Eagles.

:) spirit of eagle didn't overwrite flight of eagles before the patch either. minor annoyance, but a pre-existing one.

foe > soe by 5%, no big deal

and this pot9 is getting to be a real pain

Add another who is suffering from this change. Nines looks the same on the buff bar, whether it's st nines or group nines. At least virtue if it needed to be removed looked different. Not being able to refresh the entire raid defeats the purpose of MGB.

It's driving me crazy and manaless casting the extra st nines for those who did not get the mgb refresh of nines earlier. And it happens at the worst times, just before we are about to engage, in the middle of a fight.

We're old dogs now. It's tough to learn new tricks when you've mastered the old. Raids are trained to remove virtue if they want nines. It's difficult to explain that they have to remove nines if they want nines. :p

If needs make it so bot9 overwrites pot9 but pot9 doesnt overwrite pot9 IF you cant get it to work for both....that would be 100 times better!


So you would have this rule


Stacking: Overwrite existing spell if slot 3 is effect 'Max Hitpoints' = 618


Simular to the rule on Aego.

http://lucy.fnord.net/spell.html?id=2510&source=Test



Tils

It's a great way to find out who isnt paying attention on the raid. *20 bounces* then for the next hour, soandso tells you 'p9 down'

Hey everyone,

I've read the thread and talked to a few druids in house about this and I have a possible solution:

Unfortunately the way the blockers work don't allow me to set up something that allows Blessing of the 9 to block Virtue without also blocking any other spell that has less hit points then Virtue (ex: protection of the 9). The best suggestion I've heard so far is to have the group version bounce virtue etc, while having the single target versions be over written. So basically, Blessing of the 9 would stay as it is right now, and Protection of the 9 would go back to being overwritten by Virtue etc.

I wish I could make it work both ways but it just doesn't work that way in the current system.

So what would everyone prefer?

Ryan

So basically, Blessing of the 9 would stay as it is right now, and Protection of the 9 would go back to being overwritten by Virtue etc.

So then blessing would overwrite pot9.......but pot9 wouldnt over write blessing....right?

Personally that would be fine.

The biggest issue atm for druids is that blessing wont over write single. So when someone dies and then an AE is done at a later stage its not "refreshed".

I could only see druids having the reverse when they left groups and wanted to cast single back on themselves to refresh. However if they knew group would take priority then they simply know to click it off before they to single 9.

If you can explain each possibility Ryan (PM me if needs) I will set up a Poll with those options and I guess we can have the druid comminity vote for how they want.

Im guessing the options are the following..but I need confirmation or any addtions :)

1) Pot9 WONT over write Bot9, Bot9 WONT over write Pot9, Virtue WONT over write either Pot9 or Bot9 (As we are atm)

2) Pot9 WONT over write Bot9, Bot9 WILL over write Pot9, Virtue WONT over write Bot9, Virtue WILL over write Pot9 (New possibility)

3) Pot9 WILL over write Bot9, Bot9 WILL over write Pot9, Virtue WILL over write either Pot9 or Bot9 (As it used to be)

Tils

Proposed:

Protection of the Nine: will be overwritten and blocked by either Blessing of the Nine or Virtue.

Blessing of the Nine: will block Virtue and Protection of the Nine, and overwrite Protection of the Nine.

Virtue will: Block blessing of the Nine and Protection of the nine, and overwrite Protection of the Nine.

I hope that's clear enough.

Ryan

I like the proposed idea. Not perfect but my favorite of the 3.

Add modify the stacking system to allow people to choose their buffs to the "things to do while the developers are bored" list =)

There is no question to ask, EVERY raiding druid will agree here.

BoT9 HAS to overwrite PoT9 at any cost =)

BoT9 blocking HoV/V and overwriting PoT9 is the best solution by far.

Tubby

as long as bot9 overwrites itself and pot9, id be cool with that solution

How about putting 1 more HP on Bot9 .. if I know the spell in and outs.. that would help to solve it and for 1 hps NO druid would cast the group version for 1 person. ??

Originally posted by Raloda
How about putting 1 more HP on Bot9 .. if I know the spell in and outs.. that would help to solve it and for 1 hps NO druid would cast the group version for 1 person. ??

Sounds good also.

And i guess no one would call about unbalancing =) Can pay 50 more mana for a BoT9 cast if needed, i dont care =)

The 1hp idea wouldnt work if you check the way the stacking is done its not done off the HP of nine its far higher.


Tils

couldn't something silly be added to the buffs to fix this all and make it the way it sounded like it would be?

say...1 charisma was added to hov. if botn/potn overwrote each other as they used to and refreshed over each other as they used to and were programed to block a hp buff with charisma...

would that be possible in any way shape or form? or is that too much to ask for in hopes of having our cake and eating it too?

Why not add an effect that really does do nothing, just to be used for stacking? Maybe some of the higher numbered ones could be used that way? (The new LDoN effects were in the 170's I think?) Let's say it's #250 and called Stacking250.

Then it would be a simple matter of adding to Virtue and Hand of Virtue:
6: Increase Stacking250 by 1405

...to Ancient Gift of Aegolism:
6: Increase Stacking250 by 1300

...to Blessing of Aegolism:
6: Increase Stacking250 by 1150

...to Aegolism:
6: Increase Stacking250 by 1100

Then to Protection of the Nine and Blessing of the Nine, replace the recently added 5 and 6 with:
5: Stacking: Block new spell if slot 6 is effect 'Stacking250' and < 1500

The same could be added to Protection of the Cabbage and Protection of the Glades...or suppose Virtue and Hand of Virtue, should overwrite Cabbage and Glades, but Aegolism, Blessing of Aegolism and Gift of Aegolism shouldn't:
5: Stacking: Block new spell if slot 6 is effect 'Stacking250' and < 1400

A better solution would be to make nine and virtue stack the same way haste stacks now. Take the higher of the two HP components but allow the other components (AC from virtue, mana regen from nine) to stack. No more complaints about virtue overwriting nine and no whiny clerics complaining about nine.

Of course in trying to make them stack they'll probably break all HP buffs in general so it's probably not worth it.

Damnit I wish they had a better spell stacking system.

Protection of the Nine: will be overwritten and blocked by either Blessing of the Nine or Virtue.

Blessing of the Nine: will block Virtue and Protection of the Nine, and overwrite Protection of the Nine.

Virtue will: Block blessing of the Nine and Protection of the nine, and overwrite Protection of the Nine.


I can live with this! :) The key factor being that MGB Blessing refreshes itself and Protection of the Nine. The bonus is that Virtue will no longer overwrite Blessing. Everyone is accustomed to Virtue overwriting Protection already so not fixiing this is not a hardship.

Thanks much Rytan for addressing this so quickly! :)

Looks like a fix for the potn and botn blocking each other on test atm.