Many of the Enchanters in Everquest are going to punch the
cancel button on their accounts on this date (June 1st) in protest of the Charm/Illusion nerf in all it's forms.

There has been much furor lately in the Enchanter community
about these nerfs and SoE has not been listening to
constructive ways in which to correct several of these
problems. We have virtually been ignored by Absor in every
way, shape and form.

I urge the Druid community to join us in this battle.

forums.crgaming.com/eqbb/...hp?t=86043 (http://forums.crgaming.com/eqbb/viewtopic.php?t=86043)

Balisidar
Phantasmist
Tarew Marr

Where I understand how it would upset chanters I disagree that it should not have been nerfed Sorry.

Yes the nerf effected druids aswell but imho it was needed.

GL on your petition.

Tils

Ummmm, no.

I consider it thining the gene pool. ;)

Let the strong survive, let the weak take themselves out.

<em>Please don't pop onto this board and flame a visitor with your 4th ever post here. You gotta earn your right to be an ass.

Aidon</em>

What exactly is the problem with charms now? You get to many resists with the check at 0? It costs to much mana? The casting time is to long? Or, is it that you can't farm hundreds and thousands of plat as easily as before? That can't be the case though really since BoT farming hasn't slowed one bit on my server. Is the problem that you have to work on high end encounters now because pets don't tank as well? Or that you can't get 2-3 aa's per hour?

Please explain

Averion less personal attacks


Tils

I respect the effort here. If you look at it more as a protest against terrible customer service and lack of communication, then I imagine you'll garner a bit more support.

I think most folks (even charming Druids) agreed that soloing mini-bosses wasn't good for the game, so while many Druids will agree with you on the xp change, not all will be comfortable with a boycott based solely on the charm nerf.

But I do hope it prompts some communication by SOE.

<img src="http://sun.he.net/~justin1/eq/sig4.jpg"/>
Magelo Profile (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=562742)

The nerf to the enchanters would be like all druids having the snare/ensnare nerfed to near uselessness because a handful of level 65s were using it to defeat a mob in a way that the developers hadn't accounted for. Imagine if mobs gave 30 percent less exp if they are snared.

I have played my druid as my main since release on Bristlebane and know very well that we, as druids, recognize our class defining strengths better than those who do not play druids. I created my enchanter to be my druid's clarity slave in Feb 2000 and have a good understanding of that class. While my druid viewed my enchanter as his Clarity slave and some of you see enchanters and think "KEI", their strengths have already been dramatically tampered with by the developers.

The ability to charm mobs and have them fight for the enchanter has always been advertised by the developers as an enchanter's strength. Once upon a time (for 3 1/2 years), enchanters were the masters of crowd control. Now, the PBAE stuns no longer work, mezzes are resisted as frequently as they stick, mezzes last half as long, if there was an AE mez spell for high level it would mean insta death, somehow every creature except those of PCs have learned the ability to summon and the mana cost for the shorter term and more resistable mezzes has disproportionately increased for PoP mobs.

There was a time when we refered to using our root to hold a mob out of range as a "ghetto mez", now it is the more reliable, more efficient and safer mode of crowd control than a mez.

Enchanters have been charm soloing as long as druids have been kiting, longer than druids have been root dotting and longer than druids have been quadding. Now because a few uber chanters have done something that should require at least a group, all chanters of all levels are suffering a nerf that renders the ability as unwanted in groups and terribly inefficient in non-PoP ZEM zones.

While the enchanter might be a KEI and other buff beeyotch to you, that is hardly an enticing role for someone to choose to play a class and noone did. Look at it from the perspective of the players who have developed their enchanters, it isn't even the same class as it was a year ago let alone 4 years ago.

The next time we druids feel the impact of the nerf bat, I won't be surprised to see a troll on these boards say "stop the whining and give me SoE". If we are ok with enchanters losing their means to solo effectively, then we sure can't complain if the druid ability to solo is next on the chopping block.

the extent to which they nerfed enchanter charm is just wrong.. to say it's overkill is an understatement.. if they had nerfed only the exp, or only the resist factor, or only the aggro aspect it would have been a severe nerf.. all three together? absurd.

I applaud all the enchanters who have the courage to take a stand! /cheer

Yes, and I have personally stood fighting a giant in BoT when a lulled roamer walked right on TOP of me and never noticed me beating the snot out of his friend and wondered "WTF?!".

Don't come to me and complain enchanters got nerfed, go to enchanters who abused the power given to them. Just like the wizards who abused manaburn, all it takes is a few chanters to screw it up for all.

And YES this has been beaten to death already, go read the charf nerf threads.

explain to me what the exp part of the nerf has to do with BoT minis?

No. Read the nerf threads. This is a dead horse 10x over.

If folks want to leave over this, then /wave.

Go play something else with the druids that said they left when harmony got changed. Or the clerics that left when they changed healing aggro or sitting aggro or horses. Or the rogues that left when they changed the way evade works.

i see you have a 61 druid... that means you survived Shadows of Luclin and pop, and have had your nerf to snare.

remember the posts about which mobs were and which weren't snare/rootable, because the mobs caused horrendous deaths?

that point at least, demasia, is invalid.

as as for the strength of having a mob fight for you, yes, it is the 'chanter's strength. please note the difference between having the mob fight for you, and having it fight for the group or raid.

as for being a 'buff bitch', there are at least 3 classes that can have that gripe every so often, so it is not quite valid, either.

i agree with the previous poster that it will just cull those who were only surviving by the mean power of the abilities and not by their skill. /wave

alyn cross
forces unknown

alyn cross
forces unknown

You are blowing the nerf out of proportion. It isn't nearly as devastating to the solo enchanter as you would have many believe. If anything, it hurts the grouping enchanter because now his group won't want him to charm because it will probably cost them more xp than they'd gain by faster kills and it is a great deal more likely to kill the enchanter, leaving a hasted 600+ hitter add in camp.

As for solo'ing, it's just as easy as it was before. Solo'ing mini's in PoF (Flame Wilder, the spider, etc - not the armor droppers) works just as well. The experience flows a little slower, but it's still fast enough that it's worth doing.

I duo with a chanter in our guild all the time, and the nerf really hasn't had any impact on our play save the slow the AA rate from amazing to good.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>remember the posts about which mobs were and which weren't snare/rootable, because the mobs caused horrendous deaths? that point at least, demasia, is invalid.
[/quote]

How did the unsnarable tags on those mobs affect every druid of all levels? Had the developers fixed the BoT mini encounters, the problem would've been solved without level 1-63 enchanters suffering the exp penalty.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>as for being a 'buff bitch', there are at least 3 classes that can have that gripe every so often, so it is not quite valid, either.[/quote]

On the contrary, it is a legitimate issue when players choose the class. One making a choice to play a "buff bitch" is quite different than having one's character mitigated into one by nerfs and other game changes three or four years later.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>i agree with the previous poster that it will just cull those who were only surviving by the mean power of the abilities and not by their skill. /wave[/quote]

I infrequently charm with my chanter because it is more dangerous and less efficient than the charming I do with my druid. In my opinion, it requires a greater degree of skill for my enchanter to solo than it does for my druid by a long shot.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>As for solo'ing, it's just as easy as it was before. Solo'ing mini's in PoF (Flame Wilder, the spider, etc - not the armor droppers) works just as well. The experience flows a little slower, but it's still fast enough that it's worth doing.[/quote]

Myopia aside, do you think those who are not 60-65 in the upper planes enjoying the same ZEM that you are? The problem had to do with ubers in the upper planes, but the solution affected all levels. It is doesn't hinder me either since I only charm for emergency CC anyway, but that does not mean that I should cheer on a nerf to the level 34 enchanter who doesn't even know what a PoP zone looks like.

Charm needed nerfing in a major way.

I'm sorry that you are now one of the three required classes in PoP, rather than the god class.

If that makes you quit....

This is the wrong board for another class to complain to when they are nerfed.

We have been nerfed into the ground and somehow we always survive.

Thus, we realize you will feel pain at the nerf, but will survive.

Plus everytime we get nerfed, all the other classes go into a feeding frenzy and start yelling "nerf those dirty whining druids."

So, you have my sympathy but in the end, you will need to deal with it.

It's a shame many druids have become so jaded that we fail to sympathize with another class when they feel the brunt of the nerf bat. Regardless of how many times our class has been watered down and abused by overzealous developers, it just seems wrong to shake our heads in apathy towards players of another class when SOE screws with one of their defining abilities.

Tils:
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Yes the nerf effected druids aswell but imho it was needed.[/quote]

No. With all due respect, what was needed and what was implemented were two different things. Using pets to solo mini bosses could have indeed been considered overpowered. However, the nerfs brought down upon charming did NOT address that problem; minis are still being soloed by the extreme minority of chanters who were doing it before the nerfs. All SOE really did was to penalize every traditionally intended use of charmed pets.

Speaking from the perspective of a druid whose primary means of soloing <em>was</em> with charm, the Exp nerf alone was detrimental to my enjoyment of the game. Even so, I realize that druids from low level to 60 still have other means of soloing. Yet chanters of ALL levels have lost their only reliable way to solo for Exp, especially from 1-50ish, when they're limited to pre-PoP exp and undesired by most groups for their pre-KEI buffs.

Occasionally, an ability scales a bit too well and must be tempered. If done correctly, such temperence can be implemented through design of content and mobs to restrict the use of such an ability. Once again, however, SOE's developers took the easy way out by attacking character abilities rather than the content which was being exploited by a tiny minority.

The sudden triple-nerf to charming was not only an overreaction which missed its target completely, but in effect, was a direct attack to an ability which had been an intended aspect of class balance for over three years. I can't feel very optimistic about that, nor can I agree with anyone who believes a drastic nerf to a main class ability was an appropriate way to deal with a few instances of abuse.

~Firemynd

The topic at hand is not the "nerf" per se, but the posters attempt to get us to quit our accounts as a show of support for enchanters.

I refuse to argue about what was beaten to death many times over, but I do not refuse to "/wave" at the shallow end of the gene pool who do delete based on this nerf. If that's what it takes to make one quit, they already had a foot out the door IMHO.

And do NOT misconstrue my statement as a lack of support for Enchanters as a whole. I know a LOT of very good enchanters that were effected by this nerf. They are so good infact, that they are working through this.

"That which does not kill us makes us stronger." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Actually, although I don't agree with the basis for the strike, it's still a great way to get heard. They aren't deleting their accounts, they aren't intending to stop playing. They are just stopping the automatic payment on their accounts. I've done it before. I decided I was going to let the timer run out and decide whether or not to keep playing when they expired. I was (still am) really pissed about PoP.

Anyway, at the end of that period they'll try to log in and get prompted for their credit card info again and go on playing.

I think the good thing is it makes it a little hard to forecast what your revenue is going to be like if your customers keep cancelling.

It's the neco's that should be cancelling. The changes make their charm useless since they can't lower the mobs MR. Enchanters on the other hand have had their exp gains slowed somewhat. The quote above "from amazing to good" is apt. I don't know any enchanters who decided to quit because of this.

Sounds like a lot of hot air, but if enough of you actually follow through, it will be an interesting time :)

After all the nerfs that druids, as a class, have been through...after all the threads talking about how the options for gameplay have narrowed (soloing harder, etc)...I find it really appalling that there are people who will cheer this on.

Why rain on someone else's parade? Why shouldn't enchanter's soloing ability be good? Ours used to be, and yet is never stopped grouping druids from grouping.

I agree that perhaps it is wise to keep soloers from going after mini-bosses to such an extent that all the BoT minibosses are camped by individuals. Nevertheless, SOE developers could have come up with a more creative solution than an across the board charm nerf like this.

Again I say, why rain on someone else's parade? We don't like it when our own options are reduced, why so we want to cheer that happening to others.

I think the enchanters are right in what they hope to do with this protest, but I don't think it will have any impact. Its been proven time and time again that anything to benefit players in this game is long in coming and hard-won. And soon nerfed.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> It's a shame many druids have become so jaded that we fail to sympathize with another class when they feel the brunt of the nerf bat.[/quote]
/wholehearted agree Fyre.

It's clear that SOE once again took the easy out with the charm "fix" and many of the players can't see that due to some silly class envy.

EQ has also become much less fun for me since The Great Charm Nerf, now that I make AA roughly 30% slower. In addition, the folks that I group with are somewhat reluctant to let me use a pet now due to the xp penalty. This nerf hurt me badly.

It's so easy to forget the sting of these nerfs when they don't really apply to you. Keep that in mind.

<img src="http://sun.he.net/~justin1/eq/sig4.jpg"/>
Magelo Profile (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=562742)

They do apply to us. That's a great point. We all have to deal with the same resist check now. What's wrong with that? In fact, enchanters are still better at it since they have tash. Not something I can really see being that upset over.

The exp cut does sting a little but it's pretty blown out of proportion. I still charm in groups. I still do groups with several charmed pets and I still get great exp and on top of that, it's still fun.

Same with soloing. You can still charm solo. It's more risky, yes. But the exp is still great, and the rewards are just as good. On top of that enchanters can still charm ANYTHING. Unlike the rest of us who are restricted to lvl 60 and below and just animals. So, there's a whole lot of options out there for charm soloing if enchanters really feel they need to.

What's to complain about? It's certainly not enough to break the game for enchanters, imo. But, I guess if you're used to only playing one way for both exp and making money then you probably would complain until you learned to play another way.

Enchanters are still the masters of charm and crowd control. The entire thing is being blown out of whack.

I agree with what Fyre says above. Instead of endless bitching and moaning, here is an effort by several to put their money where their mouths are. Which is exactly what I have seen many apologists say here when people complain about nerfs.

Money talks. But the absence of money shouts.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Enchanters are still the masters of charm and crowd control. The entire thing is being blown out of whack. [/quote]

Maybe the developers will consider a proposal to reduce charms to 45 seconds and alter recast time to about 3-5 minutes la Dictate for ALL charms. Then, they can turn back the exp nerf and the mini encounters can remain poorly designed. Since so many of you say that charm needed to be nerfed, how would this solution strike you?

Chanters are still doing what they were doing before. It's a bit riskier, and a bit slower xp, but they are still doing it.

Druids are still doing what they were doing before. It's a bit riskier, and a bit slower xp, but they are still doing it.

Necros... are absent.

Nonetheless ~ putting your money where your mouth is ~ I can appreciate that. :)

I agree with slowing down soloing enchanters to an xp rate that is about that of a group... Same with all soloers. XP in groups should be better and every class should have something to add to a group.

That said, longer duration or enchancing the probably of a charm holding seems reasonable. The dps of the charmed mob or the xp garnered from the charmed mob should result in slower xp while soloing.

That said, enchanters who soloed minis in bot or did other actions that should be limited to a group should be curbed. Maybe make duration based on the mobs level relative to yours or something along those lines.

Anyway, throwing a tantrum by canceling your account is probably not the best way to get results. I would guess that having a petition with a delination of what you would like to see improved to retain balance between soloing and grouping while enabling charm classes to retain their trait.

Seems to me that the *fix* to charm is similar to the *fix* in hoh. Both *fixes* were made to address very specific problems (e.g. bot mini soloing and bard 100+ mob kiting). Both *fixes* partially corrected the problems, but not completely. However both *fixes* have ultimately hurt many more people and their enjoyment of the game who were neither harming anyone nor the gameplay.

So, I can feel for the chanters who didn't previously abuse charm and cause the need for the *fix*. They truly have been nerfed. On the other hand, I've also seen the over all derogatroy attitude that the chanters have for druids on their class message board, so can't say I'm going to go out of my way for them.

<strong>Anyway, throwing a tantrum by canceling your account is probably not the best way to get results. I would guess that having a petition with a delination of what you would like to see improved to retain balance between soloing and grouping while enabling charm classes to retain their trait.</strong>

You're kidding, aren't you? I hope. Or perhaps you weren't around here last year to see Verant's response to the Druid Petition.

In short, Verant hates petitions.

I also find it interesting that you think the most adult reaction of all--simply cancelling your account--is throwing a tantrum.

You people supporting the enchanters have got to be joking. I mean come on Miles, you too? The nerf was a slap on the wrist, and a weak one at that. It didn't slow down the BoT mini problem(and beyond) at all. I think it should have been more severe without affecting the other classes as badly.

My point was not simply that the charm nerf was painful, but that it DIDN'T NEED TO BE. Instead of listening to the dozens of viable suggestions for fixing charm exploits and specific encounters/zones, they nerfed an ENTIRE SPELL LINE and I would wager that once again, the lower 95% of each charm class was hit the hardest. THAT'S the problem I have with SOE's approach to nearly every "flaw" (see Monk mitigation) that they use a shovel instead of a scalpal to perform a surgical tweak.

I'm glad that many of you (mostly higher level folks) haven't had to adjust your playstyle too radically, but the fact remains that the charm nerf was clumsy and poorly implemented and still harmed a huge percentage of the player base. I'm not gonna call the Enchanters "whiners" for taking a stand on this. Not sure why many of you are.

Primero Aventurero
63 Druid

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>You people supporting the enchanters have got to be joking. I mean come on Miles, you too? The nerf was a slap on the wrist, and a weak one at that. It didn't slow down the BoT mini problem(and beyond) at all. I think it should have been more severe without affecting the other classes as badly. [/quote]

Sorry Moss, but you've clearly been envious of enchanters on several fronts, not the least of which is your contention that it is somehow patently wrong for them to offer KEI buffing as a service to fellow players.

Frankly, after everything you've said in past threads, it's extremely difficult for me to think you're being objective. Especially when you suggest that chanters should have been nerfed harder "without affecting the other classes as badly" -- after you previously agreed with the fact that SOE's nerf bat typically hits far more than its target.

Now I suppose you will issue a challenge for me to find quotes from you or some other such deflection from the topic, but I'm not going to waste time on it. Your history here has been frequently to spout off at the mouth on the main board, then go back and edit your posts to tone them down. Although, there are a few recent posts of yours where you call the developers or programmers "morons" and other assorted names, having claimed before that you never make personal attacks (one of those occasions when you edited posts <em>after</em> being accused of violating board guidelines).

You make some very sound points on occasion, but I suspect to many readers, those points are lost in the midst of outbursts which supplant derogatory remarks where any attempt at objectivity could have made far greater impact. Too bad, really.

~Firemynd

Kahlia says: It isn't nearly as devastating to the solo enchanter as you would have many believe. If anything, it hurts the grouping enchanter

Precisely. All this nerf does to solo enchanters is make AAXP about 30% slower and cost a little bit more mana over time (in the case of higher-than-average-MR pets). There is zero change in risk. Enchanters who soloed in the past will continue to solo, because grouping has not been made any more efficient. These people will always solo until SoE gets their head of their collective ãsses and realizes that they should improve grouping instead of constantly nerfing soloing.

Weoden says: Anyway, throwing a tantrum by canceling your account is probably not the best way to get results.

Voting with your feet is not only the best way, it's the only way. SoE couldn't care less if you bītch endlessly on message boards, as long you keep sending them their money.

I would guess that having a petition with a delination of what you would like to see improved to retain balance between soloing and grouping while enabling charm classes to retain their trait.

LOL, ask SoE for "fixes"? The only thing worse than getting hit by the nerf bat is where you're the one doing the swinging. <img src=http://lag9.com/biggrin.gif>

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I'm glad that many of you (mostly higher level folks) haven't had to adjust your playstyle too radically[/quote]

This statement hits the nail on the head. Even though it is clear and been stated repeatedly, the nerf the chanta nazis evade the reality that the nerf affected everyone. That a druid duos with a chanter in the planes and is still able to gain better exp than in a group gives little comfort to the enchanters who do not enjoy the ZEM at their levels. It is almost comical how some of you add credence to the comics that portray droods as selfish kewl doodz.

The irony is that some of you are so willing to cast stones when druids live in a glass house when it comes to class envy. There are not many classes that can get 11 AA in 10 hours soloing. And I won't be surprised to see the duration of our CoT "balanced" to the 7 minute max duration of the enchanters' charm. If you really think the enchanter charm was so overpowered that it is ok that the developers nerfed all enchanters, then I'm sure you will understand that there are many classes who feel the enchanter and druid charms are still overpowered and will until you can't charm solo anymore.

I'm siding with TeriMoon here.

It's about time, or way past due -- I should say -- that people stop supporting nerfs because the truth is, SOE has other ways to change and improve the game so that it's more "fair." Nerfing is a fvcking lazy-ass way to take care of business.

For years we have ALL heard the same complaints about the lack of thorough testing and player input. No sh it.

So much of this backtracking BS (i.e. nerfing) could have been/could be avoided, so sorry, I won't applaud or support the call for nerfs to others; I hold the company responsible for its lack of due diligence, not the players or the classes they play.

The only thing that has been nerfed on the entire line of charm spells (and it affects the whole line up of druid and necro charms as well), is the xp you gain from it. And you STILL gain 70 percent at least of what you did before. Plus you can break charm early and finish the mobs yourself for full xp. Nerfed? yes. But still very viable.

The only charm spell that I am aware off that got nerfed beyond the xp penalty is the high end chanter charm... So indeed, this was targetting the high end chanter who soloed minis in BoT. Does it stop them? no. Xp is not an issue on minis since you don't try them for that. But it IS a bit more dangerous now.

Who said xp has slowed down for druids? AH! If anything, my xp is going faster now, because of the many druids who still believe that and don't bother checking camp anymore... In a sense, because of that, the nerf has badly failed, imo.

Oh, to those who say that it hurts chanters grouping... Am I mistaken in believing that the xp nerf is only in soloing situations? That the last word on it was there was NO xp nerf whatsoever in grouping?

Also, even if I am mistaken in this, remember that the xp you get scales up with the damage you do... In a group, damage dealt will be much more potent compared to the pets', and you will gain proportionately more xp.

Bottom line : the nerf might not have been done in the most ingenious way, it has its faults, but I don't believe for one second that it makes chanters useless in any way shape or form. If peeps are ready to quit over this... sorry to see you go but you gotta do what you gotta do!

Callahad

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>You people supporting the enchanters have got to be joking. I mean come on Miles, you too? The nerf was a slap on the wrist, and a weak one at that. It didn't slow down the BoT mini problem(and beyond) at all. I think it should have been more severe without affecting the other classes as badly. [/quote]

Charmed pets taking xp affects all charmed pets now, not just people soloing minis, doesn't it? (Correct me if I am wrong, I haven't played my enchanter alt in a while.) If so, it might be true that a more severe approach would "solve the mini problem," but it would make charming at lower levels more untenable than it is now. When calling for class nerfs, please don't forget how it will affect the non-uber and lower-leveled toons. (Of course, if the nerf only affects people using the higher level charms, scratch this whole post. :) )

Regards,

Aldane Aglond
Ayonae Ro

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The only charm spell that I am aware off that got nerfed beyond the xp penalty is the high end chanter charm... So indeed, this was targetting the high end chanter who soloed minis in BoT. Does it stop them? no. Xp is not an issue on minis since you don't try them for that. But it IS a bit more dangerous now.[/quote]

It also targeted those who haven't and can't solo the minis, yet you portray it as an accurate shot. The lengths our imaginations go to in support of our envy of others.

Honestly, when I see things like "fixes" that affect other things than they were intended to fix, I wonder if the developers/decision-makers actually PLAY the game they are working on.

If they played the game as much as most of the players we have here, they wouldn't have any time for development work! Given that, I can see how they screw things up so easily.

As a programmer in RL, I have seen a lot of unintended screw ups because of a "fix" to something else. Many times it's carelessness, but other times it's because the people making the changes, or making the decision to make the changes, don't fully understand just how much all the pieces of the system are woven toigether. Changing "A" not only alters "B" (the intended fix), but also affects "C", which affects "D", and so on.

SOE's quick and hard-handed approach to "nerfs" often shows just how little they understand the game, let alone the players. Maybe if they took as long to "nerf" as they did to "fix", giving them some time to THINK about it, things wouldn't be so bad.

I don't know, I bet they do put time into thinking about nerfs. Sure, there is a time problem, since testing the changes is kind of, well...weak.

I really don't think its a problem of time spent thinking about it. I think its the way they think about it that ends up screwing the game. A half-empty, containment approach which seems designed to penalize people who are creative and having fun rather than providing more options for people. You'd think it would be obvious that more options for fun experiences would equal more players. But, I think they are rather invested in their view of how the game "should" be played. What can be done about this? Just continually point out that these changes make the game less fulfilling for some and don't necessarily change the abuses of a few.

on may 31st lets all cancel our accounts because of the bugged door in west freeport

<strong>You're kidding, aren't you? I hope. Or perhaps you weren't around here last year to see Verant's response to the Druid Petition.</strong>

On the other hand, Scir the petition did end up working for us in the long run...

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
You'd think it would be obvious that more options for fun experiences would equal more players.
[/quote]

I would think the exact opposite would be obvious. More options means more potential for people to do things they don't enjoy, and so more cause for complaint.

PoP sure added a lot of options for fun experiences, but it seems to get universally condemned on this board. IMHO that is because it also added the option to do things people don't find to be fun, and some people make the mistake of doing the non-fun things for reasons that are not particularly clear to me, but may be related to a misplaced Puritan work ethic.

Soru

Ah ah Demasia you make me laugh :)

For your info I got zero class envy, actually I think druids are overpowered lol. I never contemplated playing another class except for change of scenery eh eh.

My intent with that sentence was to say that VI did indeed target the high end charm problem for chanters, and part of the problem was chanters soloing minis in BoT.

You are right though, they did target the high end chanter soloing for xp also... If you did bother to read the rest of my post you would have noticed I talked about that too.

Is it really that big a deal to take 40-45 mins per AA instead of 25? Has the chanter class become useless when it takes that long to aaxp?

thick headed envious kids...ROFL /shakes head

well, just goes to show you whatever you say, however you say it, other peeps will just hear what they want to hear.

Callahad

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>More options means more potential for people to do things they don't enjoy, and so more cause for complaint. ~ PoP sure added a lot of options for fun experiences, but it seems to get universally condemned on this board. [/quote]

Every expansion has offered options for fun experiences. PoP offers less options than previous expansions, yet no other expansion has drawn as much fire as PoP. Therefore your reasoning, ('more things to do' = 'more condemnation'), is flawed. If you weren't so quick to dismiss every PoP-related complaint on the grounds that it doesn't affect you directly, perhaps you would understand.

~Firemynd

I'm arguing a point and you're the one making a personal attack here Fire. Why do some of you resort to that? Damn right I make personal attacks on SoE, but then so do a lot 'regulars' here so don't single people out for that just because you don't like them or agree with them Fire.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>"Especially when you suggest that chanters should have been nerfed harder "without affecting the other classes as badly" -- after you previously agreed with the fact that SOE's nerf bat typically hits far more than its target."[/quote]

Yeah...and? I agreed SoE's nerf bat hits far more than it's target AND I think enchanters should have been hit harder without affecting other classes as badly. What's your point? How do those two concepts conflict? Both of those views are right in line with the other.

Envy shmenvy, enchanters were and still are overpowered. You're assuming I'm envious and making yourself look ignorant in the process. You don't know me Fire so stop making assumptions about my motives, thanks.

I think I have edited a post all of about twice to 'tone it down'. Most edits are done to correct spelling and grammar errors. And what if I do? That's a bad thing? At least I think better of it and try to keep from offending people by 'toning' it down. Once again, another assumption based on ignorance.

You don't want to look for quotes because you know you're grasping at straws here, but by all means go look for them since you seem to have nothing better to do than bash me instead of addressing the issues of the thread.

Some day maybe we can all be perfect human beings like you Fire, you know saints that are always righteous and good. Then again, most of us live in the real world and don't judge other people they don't know while throwing around that 'holier than thou' crap.

By the way Firemynd, I've never been accused of violating board policies that I know of and don't attack others unless I'm provoked the way you seem to.

To further elaborate on the edits, I have always edited my stuff a lot because I'm kind of anal retentive when it comes to spelling, grammar, and getting my point across exactly the way I intend so I go back and change wording or fix errors all the time. Stop grasping at straws to attack me just because you don't like or agree with me and stick to the issue of the thread.

Mossglade, chill.

Probably everyone here has an area or two about the game and about class balance or some other aspect that really gets beneath their skin. I know I do. I have seen that you do as well, and I don't mind you expressing your views. But I do agree with Firemynd to the point that you sometimes word things in a way that inflames a point rather than adds to a discussion about it. I have certainly been guilty of the same thing.

No one likes their opinions invalidated, really. At least in my experience, this is true. Sometimes when one reads your posts, one gets the feeling that if they don't agree with your view, you would consider them ill-informed at the very least. When this happens, its not always easy to find the substance of what you are saying, as I, for one, tend to get caught up in the emotional content of what you are trying to convey.

Just chill a little, we are all friends here, of a sort

"Stop grasping at straws to attack me"

Show me.

Nerfs suck.

Supporting Nerfs suck.


Something not working as intended, how about f'ing working with the community once and finding a viable solution Sony.


You, as an organization have shown zero imagination in resolving these types of issues.

How about working with some of the brilliant minds like the HoH kiting bards and the BoT mini soloing enchanters? They have shown considerably more constructive solutions than you have.


Sorry about getting angry all, this crap pisses me off no end and even if it has been beaten to death still causes me to spin up.

Even though druid charm takes much longer to cast than enchanter's, has a large refresh on it, I can only debuff magic by 20 instead of an enchanter's 50, I don't have access to domination to reduce charm breaks like enchanters, and I can only charm a small fraction of what an enchanter can and those mobs not being nearly as good as the ones an enchanter can charm... it's still a great way to rake in solo XP much faster than most other classes in the game.

Pets used to eat 50% of the XP soloing, now they eat, what, 30% and you're getting x2 the XP because of the high level mob XP bonus. So we're still getting more than 3 times the XP we used to be getting.

<strong>For your info I got zero class envy, actually I think druids are overpowered lol.</strong>

May your manhood (or womanhood) be shrivelled by a degenerative disease brought on by incurring the wrath of D.U.C.K..

I hope your dog comes down with the clap, as well\

<em>edit: Boy, I ****ered up those ezcodes something fierce</em>

The burden of proof isn't with me Fyyr, it's with you. I wasn't even talking to you anyway, it was Firemynd I was responding to. He's grasping at things that aren't there to prove a point. He has concocted a profile of me when he doesn't even know me and attempted to invalidate what I say based on his warped perceptions. Firemynd has taken assumption and the absurdity that comes with it to a new level.

Teri, if I inflame things it's only when confronted. I stay away from conflict as best I can. If my views stir some people up so be it, but that doesn't give them the right to come here and try to discredit me for no other reason then because I don't agree with them or they don't like my style. That's ridiculous. If I feel passionate about an issue I write with passion. But I don't recall attacking TDG posters other than to defend myself, unlike people like Falamil and Firemynd. I attack SoE because they deserve it. I saw a very fun and addictive game with all kinds of promise summarily relegated to a non-fun time-sink piece of crap that doesn't cater to gameplayers like myself but to bean counters at a company that doesn't give a damn about it's customers.

Callahad says: Oh, to those who say that it hurts chanters grouping... Am I mistaken in believing that the xp nerf is only in soloing situations?

You're mistaken. It hurts everyone. In a grouping situation, where the XP is spread pretty thin as it is, no one will want a risky pet stealing even more XP.

As to the MR nerf to Command of Druzzil (the enchanter charm), it hurts grouping enchanters because pre-nerf, it was an effective yet risky form of crowd control in grouping. Now it is resisted too often to be useful for crowd control. The MR nerf is largely irrelevant for soloing because you can always MR debuff when you pull your pet.

L1ndara says: can only debuff magic by 20 instead of an enchanter's 50, I don't have access to domination to reduce charm breaks like enchanters, and I can only charm a small fraction of what an enchanter can and those mobs not being nearly as good as the ones an enchanter can charm

Druid charm costs 40% less mana and has nearly three times the maximum duration. Also, druids have one of the most overpowering soloing spells in existence - Ensnare. With it, you have plenty of time to cast whatever you want and incur absolutely zero risk. As for Total Domination, I have the third level on my enchanter, and when compared to the first level, I couldn't notice a bit of difference in terms of early breaks. No one really knows what it does, if anything.

Send me an EZbored message if you care to discuss this further.

OMG it's been ages since someone has made a reference to DUCK. Ah!

Good old DUCK.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Even though druid charm takes much longer to cast than enchanter's, has a large refresh on it, I can only debuff magic by 20 instead of an enchanter's 50, I don't have access to domination to reduce charm breaks like enchanters, and I can only charm a small fraction of what an enchanter can and those mobs not being nearly as good as the ones an enchanter can charm... it's still a great way to rake in solo XP much faster than most other classes in the game.[/quote]

Last I checked CoT lasts up to about 19 minutes and CoD lasts up to about 7 minutes (well, it used to). It is not a small benefit that we can also ensnare our pets and anyone who claims that isn't important is due for medication. Druids also get CoT at 63, a level before enchanters get CoD.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>You are right though, they did target the high end chanter soloing for xp also[/quote]

I didn't say that. The closest I said to that was pointing out that while their target was the BoT mini soloers, they hit every enchanter in the game. You may be comfortable that pre 50 enchanters were royally screwed and that is your perogative to be the type of person you are. I think it is wrong and will argue with you about it though.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Is it really that big a deal to take 40-45 mins per AA instead of 25? Has the chanter class become useless when it takes that long to aaxp?[/quote]

I have no idea since I have never achieved either a 25 minute or even a 45 minute AA. And, I'm quite certain the pre 50 enchanters haven't either. I can see why you ARE envious if you believe all or even most of the enchanters have been doing 25 minute AAs. Yet, I hope you realize that there are many classes who are envious that druids can get an AA in less than hour and would be as gleeful as you are now to see druids pummeled again by the nerf bat.

What it comes down to is that SOE gives us spells and abilities that we use for up to four years and enjoy. We learn a play style and enjoy our characters.

Then one day, SOE adds an expansion or new content and decides that what they gave us before this is a problem with their new content so it has to go or at least get hugely nerfed. OR they are just sitting around thinking of new ways to make us all group, so out comes the nerf bat.

It stinks for those of us who have enjoyed our characters and way of playing with what we were given way back when. All of a sudden, we can not longer do what WE ENJOY IN THIS GAME.

We have put out the money, tons of it, for the original game and all the expansions as they came out, not to mention the monthly fee. Then someone at SOE comes along and decides we should not enjoy the game in that way.

We have made a huge monetary and time investment in fun entertainment on good faith. Only that good faith is often rather one sided.

That is why I don't give them money anymore.

If people want to keep playing and think it's worth it, OK by me. They get value out of it. Like I said, EQ as entertainment value is unmatched by other typical activities.

If you are repulsed by the low maintenance attitude, you should definitely retire.

Honestly , PoP dosent piss me off as much as the Luclin Time sink crap.

Shards and bane weapons can bite my arse. :)


have a nice day.

Demasia, this is hopeless, I won't even argue. You are bent on believing I am envious of chanters, and nothing I can ever say will change your mind. Proof of that is I did say that quite clearly, and I did say i thought druids were overpowered, and you quite conveniently ignored that.

Believe what you will.

GL in dealing with the nerf.

Callahad

Druids are OVERpowered?!?! Wow, hard to believe how nearly ALL high level guilds on ALL servers must've missed that one. At least they keep forgetting to update Druid desirability to "high" on their apps page =P

<img src="http://sun.he.net/~justin1/eq/sig4.jpg"/>
Magelo Profile (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=562742)

Ok, solo overpowered *grin*

Callahad

<strong>Druid charm costs 40% less mana and has nearly three times the maximum duration.</strong>

And I break charm after every fight to heal the pet while enchanters break charm to get a new pet to kill their old one for XP... Score enchanters.

<strong>Also, druids have one of the most overpowering soloing spells in existence - Ensnare. With it, you have plenty of time to cast whatever you want and incur absolutely zero risk.</strong>

Hehe. You say that as if people don't outrun mobs or have 1.8 second cast roots or short cast spells so that people don't have plenty of time on unsnared mobs.

<strong>It is not a small benefit that we can also ensnare our pets and anyone who claims that isn't important is due for medication.</strong>

Again, compare 8 second cast time to 5 second. We HAVE to ensnare (or root etc.) to get our charm off, an enchanter on the other hand CAN get a charm off on an unsnared mob.

<strong>Druids also get CoT at 63, a level before enchanters get CoD.</strong>

Uh... yeah. That level took me all of one night's play time, and I was still using CoK, meanwhile enchanters get Beckon as an ethereal and have Boltran's.

Charm is still a great way to get XP, I can still clear the giant fort or Koka'Vor tree without trouble and get decent XP for doing it, and enchanters can still do the same thing in every zone in the game practically.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>And I break charm after every fight to heal the pet while enchanters break charm to get a new pet to kill their old one for XP... Score enchanters.[/quote]

LOL. If it is score for the enchanters, then you might consider doing the same thing. Druids do that also.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Hehe. You say that as if people don't outrun mobs or have 1.8 second cast roots or short cast spells so that people don't have plenty of time on unsnared mobs.[/quote]

You are reaching.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Again, compare 8 second cast time to 5 second. We HAVE to ensnare (or root etc.) to get our charm off, an enchanter on the other hand CAN get a charm off on an unsnared mob. [/quote]

You had a good point until you added the horse crap.

Maybe it because I have played my druid longer, but for me it is infinitely easier to charm solo with my druid than it is with my enchanter. In fact, I don't charm solo with my enchanter anymore because I want to play rather than constantly zone, gate or rebuff after rez. I wish my druid had as much selection for charming as my enchanter does, but even four years ago we knew we were limited to what we could charm.

You're reaching if you're going to try to convice anyone that charm soloing with a druid is easier than with a chanter.

Thats just stupid.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> Again, compare 8 second cast time to 5 second. We HAVE to ensnare (or root etc.) to get our charm off, an enchanter on the other hand CAN get a charm off on an unsnared mob.
[/quote]

With CoD, the only time I've been able to recharm a mob before it ran to me was if the mob had some huge pathing problems. I have Spell Haste, too.

The Enchanters protest on June 1st has made some more
news.

www.spawnweek.com

I would also like to thank all the Druids that are sympathetic
to the Enchanter protest. Also to the ones who are not
sympathetic and posted in a well reasoned and polite manner,
Thank you and I appreciate your viewpoint.

Balisidar

Back when command of druzzil had the -50 resist modifier (making tash unnecessary), I was surprised to see that my friend didn't even bother with word of morell when charm soloing bees in bastion of thunder. He had no trouble simply standing back and casting command of druzzil as soon as charm broke. (He has 15% spell haste from a blood runed battle wand.) He was cutting it close of course, and once in a while he got hit, but he could recharm reliably.

I tried the same thing as a druid with frogs in plane of storm. I had 25% spell haste (mage summoned ring plus blessing of reverence) AND extended range IV (wind worn luckstone), and I couldn't charm an unsnared frog that was chasing me.

The 3 second difference is very significant.

Oh, and to clarify, no pathing issues were used to recharm the bees...they charged straight at my friend. It is possible that the bees had a different run speed or melee range than the frogs, so it's not quite a direct comparison. (Come to think of it, he did charm unsnared frogs during times when I had targetting issues...that would have been a better comparison. Oh well.)

In any case we can look at it this way...

Assume run speed of 30 units/second and melee range of 40 units. Let both the enchanter and druid have 15% spell haste (I had 25% in the post above).

Enchanter with 15% spell haste has a charm cast time of 0.85*5 seconds = 4.25 seconds. 4.25 seconds * 30 units/second + 40 units = 167.5 units, less than the base range of 200 (16.25% margin of error when charming).

Druid with 15% spell haste has a charm cast time of 0.85*8 seconds = 6.8 seconds. 6.8 seconds * 30 units/second + 40 units = 244 units, 22% over the base range of 200.

You guys and you're numbers own:P

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>You're reaching if you're going to try to convice anyone that charm soloing with a druid is easier than with a chanter.[/quote]

Well, my druid is my main and has been since release. If I hadn't switched computers then I would be logged on this board with my old Aawulf account. I have been arguing and fighting the battles along with other druids since the disappearance of Winged Carrier and the DoT nerf. I have over 200 days played on both characters (far more with my druid) and I feel rather comfortable that I am presenting an objective comparison from personal experience.

For a class that has that been the focus of "envy" since we figured out how to combine snare and dots to make ourselves more than masters of travel and have collectively wished other classes would worry about themselves and leave us the hell alone, I find it shameful that so many druids now support nerfs for another class.

You may have more experience playing a chanter than me, but my brother has played one for over 200 days played time as well and not only have I been with him 90% of the time I'm on but I've played his toon enough times to see how stupid easy charming soloing is with a enchanter.

I botted his character so many times to duo with my druid because I could just ride along for massive xp. I've seen the effects of the nerf and it's really not that bad at all. So you have to tash now before you charm. Oh no! So the pet takes 1/3 of the xp. OMG! Halls of Honor has been owned by many chanters for massive xp. It slows them down a bit.

You have to consider that they're trying to make it even for everyone. Consider the poor melee that have near impossible times soloing in PoP.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>LOL. If it is score for the enchanters, then you might consider doing the same thing. Druids do that also.[/quote]

I was going to leave this alone, but this statement is just plain way out in left field. With the animals-only charming restriction, it's often as much as an hour's worth of work finding ONE charmable animal, the idea of killing your own pet and charming something else for XP is lunacy.

Look, im sure none of you will want to hear my opinion but yer gonna get it anyway! (My apologies if this was said earlier.) I think that the only real nerf to charm that would be needed was this. Lower the level of mob they can charm at 65 by 5 levels or so and make it so they cant haste their pet. This way they are forced to use lower level pets than they could use before and have their damage output dropped significantly. Soloing with charm is still viable since they can slow the mobs still to give them the advantage but they most likely wont be able to solo a mini boss exploit free anymore. Honestly, with having a pet that is 5 levels lower than usual meaning more misses and less damage on average per hit that would most likely make a huge difference to those uber 65 chanters that were destroying everything in their path. It would still be viable but no more soloing an aa point in 15 minutes or whatever insane number they were coming up with before.

Traab "Love Machine" Fellhammer
Human Mob Compactor of the 52nd Cycle
And Almost Too Sexy To Live!

"I breathlessly await the first poster to point out that I am 52 and cant possibly understand the high end."

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Lower the level of mob they can charm at 65 by 5 levels or so and make it so they cant haste their pet.[/quote]

So fixing the enchanter charm requires that the enchanter charm have a lower cap than druids' and they cant haste their pets while druids can? Yeah ok.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>but my brother has played one for over 200 days played time as well and not only have <strong>I been with him 90% of the time</strong> I'm on but I've played his toon enough times to see how stupid easy charming soloing is with a enchanter.

I botted his character so many times <strong>to duo with my druid</strong> because I could just ride along for massive xp.[/quote]

An enchanter can easily maintain control with a druid helping. Soloing doesn't mean one house, one player or one computer. Soloing means a single character without any "bots". Psst. Enchanters do not have Ensnare and heals when they are soloing.

They also dont' need ensnare or heals. I dont' think I've ever healed his pet and we've already gone over the fact that you can move away from the mob and have time to recast Enchanter charm without the need for snare while druids on the other hand must have snare in order to get our charm off.

Psst. Stop trying to make this a pity party for enchanters because it's not going to happen. They've had it easy for a long time with charm being way overpowered. If you can't agree see how overpowered charm was then perhaps it's you that doesn't know how to play a enchanter right.

Wow, I checked out the chanter board.

That thread is 6 pages long too!

I guess I didn't realize before, that the actual issue isn't the charm nerf, it's how it effects level 65 enchanters in the PoP that used to solo things they should not have been able to solo.

You're already 65...what's the problem?

I used to charm things way back when, until I figured out that cha had effect on it. Once I found that out, and look at my halfling cha...I quit charming. No wonder my charm wouldn't stick, I have big hairy feet!

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Psst. Stop trying to make this a pity party for enchanters because it's not going to happen. They've had it easy for a long time with charm being way overpowered. If you can't agree see how overpowered charm was then perhaps it's you that doesn't know how to play a enchanter right.[/quote]

Yeah, those level 44 enchanters are just tearing through the mobs and exp. If you could get past thinking about you, then you might realize that your envy of level 64 and 65 enchanters isn't reason enough to reduce a class defining ability to inefficient for the levels 1-63.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Yeah, those level 44 enchanters are just tearing through the mobs and exp.[/quote]

You're right. I could care less about those poor level 44 chanters that can't solo. Get a group and stfu.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>If you could get past thinking about you, then you might realize that your envy of level 64 and 65 enchanters isn't reason enough to reduce a class defining ability to inefficient for the levels 1-63.[/quote]

Defining ability? LOL. Enchanters are crowd control. Mezz works just fine. You attempt to make this out that enchanters are useless/helpless now because of this charm nerf and that is just wrong. This nerf just toned them down.

I have no envy for enchanters...ever. A good druid has and always will be better than an enchanter.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Defining ability? LOL. Enchanters are crowd control. [/quote]

This from 989 Studios <strong>The Official Player's Guide</strong>:
<em>The primary focus of the Enchanter's art can be summed up by the name of the arcane order to which he belongs: Enchanter. Their spells are crafted to enchant people, places, and things. This art allows them to charm beings and make them fight for their new master, or magically enhance the capabilities of a sword. They also have some skills in offensive spells, but are never as skilled as a wizard.</em>

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I have no envy for enchanters...ever. A good druid has and always will be better than an enchanter.[/quote]

Then why nerf the enchanters?

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>You're right. I could care less about those poor level 44 chanters that can't solo. Get a group and stfu.[/quote]

That only confirms what I already thought about your character. Your arguements should be preceded with a warning that you are a self-centered arse and that no objectivity will follow. Amazing how one's flaws can carry over even into a game.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>That only confirms what I already thought about your character. Your arguements should be preceded with a warning that you are a self-centered arse and that no objectivity will follow. Amazing how one's flaws can carry over even into a game.[/quote]

I don't know. I think I've been giving a pretty straight forward approach along with most people. Enchanters were overpowered and needed to be brought back down to everyone else. It hasn't hurt them very much except it's more difficult to solo. They only lost the (-50 magic) modifier and some xp. You'll live. You like to make it out like it's the end of the world instead of opening your eyes to the fact that it was needed.

If you want a pity party for the enchanters, take it to their boards and you might get a more sympathic voice.

Well, I've been pretty quiet on the subject here, but I just wanted to touch on somethings for consideration.

Enchanters are a pretty fragile class. We're one of the only classes in the game where our usefulness isn't entirely dependant on our spells but on the enviroment. This is why Enchanters were so up in arms during Velious. Having the mobs we could fight be too high to be affected by our primary spells - charm, mezz and stun - turned us primarly into buff whores. We couldn't even use our nukes on the mobs as they were extremely resistant and the stun component on them made Enchanters just a tasty morsel for many mobs.

Verant/Sony did learn from this and Luclin encounters and changes to game balance (such as removing the stun components from nukes and making them partially resistable) gave us a little more freedom during raids. However, most fights still prevented Enchanters from exercising our main spell lines.

It wasn't until PoP spell lines were put on Lucy that the Enchanter class forums started to become excited. Not only would we be able to mezz mobs our level and much higher, but we'd also have access to a charm spell that wasn't limited to only 42 seconds. Perhaps we'd start becoming what we were like during the original game and Kunark.

Unfortunately PoP sort of flip-flopped our problem (although it wasn't apparent at first). They did a really great job on making Enchanters usefu in raids again as several encounters are designed to require crowd control but the exp zones where just the opposite. In Tier 2+ PoP zones crowd control is pretty unnecessary as mobs are spread so far apart that groups I've been in with the Warrior pulling has been a constant stream of single pulls.

Of course, this problem wasn't really apparent at first since we could charm. Many nights my primary role was keeping a pet charmed for my group so we could kill faster. I was content since I had something else to do in my group. I've always charmed, but PoP made it much easier for other Enchanters to get into it. Believe it or not, charming wasn't popularly used for many Enchanters before PoP. However the resist adj on CoD and Total Domination 3 allowing long charms and easy recoveries made this a popular method for Enchanters.

It really wasn't even the mention of the potential charm nerf that started putting the vocal Enchanters on edge. Part of the problem was that we were begging and pleading with Sony to pay attention to our class boards as we had valid concerns that needed adressing. However, the boards were primarily ignored and it became really noticable when the Affliction Focus effects were "fixed" nearly 6mos after they were broken despite the fact that there were posts on our boards that clearly indicated that these focus effects had become useful to us again and a staple to the Enchanter class. It wasn't necessarily the focus effects being changed that upset Enchanters but the fact that we were never warned of the impending change or the fact that it was a bug. Yes, you can say we should've known since they initially laid out all the uses for focus effects, but it wouldn't have been the first time something was "stealth" changed in the game.

Of course, even after the uproar on our boards about the crappy way in which this was handled (if you recall, it wasn't even in the patch message), our frustration was further increased when they did the exact same thing not once, but twice more with not so much as an apology or warning. First Affliction Focus effects, then the VT specific effects and then finally Vengeance of Time.

And then despite all the rants on our boards about Sony completing ignoring other concerns of ours while continually bashing us with the nerfbat as if we were in a game of Whack-A-Mole the Charm nerf was handled the exact same way. Did the pleading of them discussing the changes with us like they did in the case of Manaburn to Wizards and mitigation changes to Monks gain us the same curtousy? No. All we got was Absor telling us that they had been working closely with 5 Enchanters on Test to ensure the CoD changes weren't too horrible. Apparently those 5 Enchanters speak the gospel truth despite the fact that not only tons of Enchanters think the nerf was overdone but also several other classes.

The same patch they only further angered us as for absolutly no apparent reason they changed the way illusions worked with, once again, zero explanation why. This removed several of the advantages our monster illusions had.

So, after all these nerfs and the little regard Sony has given us the Enchanters are pretty much on the edge. And now a lot of Enchanters have begun to realize that we are returning to our buff whore state that Velious gave us as many groups are forbidding Enchanters from charming for fear of an exp drain while we have little to do in the realm of other crowd control since most PoP zones make it extremely easy to single pull. Even if you do get an add, the 1.8 sec roots (with -30 resist) over the 2.5 sec mezzes (with -10 resist).

For most Enchanters it really wasn't the charm nerf that upset us, it was just the final straw. While they slap us with nerf after nerf other concerns of ours go unnoticed.

To me this has to do with the main problem I have with the game - crappy CS. Had Sony handled these nerfs better and posted explanations for why they were doing things instead of the occassional sentence (I believe Absor is up to 4 posts on our board now and all of them have been fewer than 2 sentences) a lot of this could've been avoided. Had they addressed some of our concerns while they rebalanced us perhaps there would be a lot less of a sting.

Am I going to cancel my account? No, probably not. To begin with I don't think you could ever get enough people to cancel at one time to make Sony notice. Secondly, I don't want it to be misconstrued that the only problem Enchanters are having is with a post-nerf CoD. Unfortuantely, my interest in my Enchanter has been waning lately as since the changes in PoP have made the fun aspects of my class slowly disappear. I may not cancel my account on June first, but perhaps it's only a matter of time before I completely lose interest in the game like several other Enchanters have.

I didn't post this to ask for sympathy or to get others to cancel their accounts. I just wanted to summarize (ok, it's a long summary) what led up to the fact of Enchanters becoming so frustrated that a mass cancellation actually looks like a good idea. Sony's crappy CS has slowly eaten away at the fun of the Enchanter class and the charm change was really the last straw in a lot of Enchanter's minds.

Anyhow, hope this answers some questions (and doesn't invoke many flames).

Let me get this right, chanters are complaining now because they are not only one of the most wanted classes for groups, but now cannot make better exp soloing than any other class?

Wait..wait.../pity mode *ON

Geez guys. As others have said, yeah nerfs suck, but take the blinders off and realize what you still have going for you.

/ooc "druid LFG" crickets chirping...

Where groups break up if they cannot get an enchanter in some zones.

I feel bad for the nerf, but I do not pity enchanters one iota.

Cantatus pretty much nailed it.

Not gonna feed da trolls any more.

Good post Cantus. I know my friend was very disgusted with the state of EQ and enchanters. He was heading out the door right about the time of PoP.

I know how mad that affliction focus item nerf made shammies. That was just badly, badly done.

Very well said Cantus.


Balisidar

Well My druidic friends, I am an enchanter, I used to duo with druids, no longer, exp is just too slow with a duo.

To clear up some of your myths-legends.

1-Enchanters are wanted in groups:

WRONG, we are *NOT* wanted in groups, we add virtually no DPS without charm , we can't heal and we have no useful buffs outside haste(3 and a half hour KEI can be purchased easily). Not that I group often, when I grouped I found it horribly boring, just buff , sit down, afk sipping a cup of tea for about an hour watching TV , ocassionally throwing in some nukes.

2-Enchanters charm is better then druids charm

WRONG AGAIN, with all the nerfs enchanters charm is GREATLY inferior to druid charm, why? well for one total domination is either broken or just not enough help, druids charm lasts 3 times longer(max duration) then ours. Even if our charms last 80-90%(being generous) they still last less then half of yours.

3-Enchanters can recharm far easier then druids

OMG that is SOOO wrong its not even funny, ensnare makes recharming trivial, 8 second cast time is nothing when the mob is moving 55% slower then normal, you would need a casting time of 10.5 at least to have the same problems enchanters have...

Even with a faster casting time what ensnare does is it saves druids hundreds of deaths from the "surprise" charm break that often kills enchanters.

4-Enchanters can charm anything for exp

Very false, post nerf a LOT of mobs have a "resistance" to charm which makes enchanters not be able to gain exp from them.

5-Enchanters were raking in the fastest exp pre nerf

Nope, bards were making 5 times the exp(read: Worry kited 100+ mobs in HoH for 5-6 AA points in 20 min, that is 1 AA every 4 minutes, show me an enchanter that could get an AA every 4 minutes and I'll show an enchanter who is hacking...)

I believe necros could also get faster exp in crypt of decay pre nerf. Druids... I never payed much attention to druid charming .... lol, no really, I didn't , until post nerf.

Oh well...

--It wasn't until PoP spell lines were put on Lucy that the Enchanter class forums started to become excited. Not only would we be able to mezz mobs our level and much higher, but we'd also have access to a charm spell that wasn't limited to only 42 seconds.--

Why should you be able to charm things that are MUCH higher than you? If something is higher than you, that is saying it is, in general, more powerful than you. Based on charming things much higher, then a level 5 warrior should have no problems hitting a level 30 monster, and that would just be silly.

--The same patch they only further angered us as for absolutly no apparent reason they changed the way illusions worked with, once again, zero explanation why. This removed several of the advantages our monster illusions had.--

The illusion changes are just lame as I read them, so I have to agree here. It is far more logical that an illusion would give faction changes instead of something like vision, strength, resists, etc. I always thought it was cool that an illusion did these other things...but why take away the factions, that is just crap. That takes away a great use for illusions to begin with. I think certain monsters, or types of monsters should be able to see through the illusions (like some can't be fooled by fd). Maybe enchanters of compairable, or higher levels could see through them or something. That would kinda make sense...KINDA.

Yes I remember Kunark. Many enchanters I grouped with on various characters absolutely refused to use charm, and many times even mes. On the one side I could see the point of their fear, on the other side I had seen quite a few enchanters of the same level be able to charm and not die.

--WRONG, we are *NOT* wanted in groups, we add virtually no DPS without charm , we can't heal and we have no useful buffs outside haste(3 and a half hour KEI can be purchased easily). Not that I group often, when I grouped I found it horribly boring, just buff , sit down, afk sipping a cup of tea for about an hour watching TV , ocassionally throwing in some nukes.--

This is one of those people that gets the whole group killed because they are watching baywatch instead of playing the game.

Enchanters are desired in groups, no matter what you say. You can debuff a mob to a pile of goo, and that has always been a benifit of enchanters. It's commonly forgotten, but it is helpful. About the only debuffs people tend to use anymore are slow spells, and maybe a resist lowering one here and there. Enchanters can lower way more than just that though, and that makes them extremely usefull if you are fighting anything that you can not quickly kill.

No usefull buffs other than haste? Throw boon on a beastlord, and watch the pet proc like crazy. Throw boon on a monk with tranquil staff, and watch the mob's life go down...and your groups not move down at all.

--WRONG AGAIN, with all the nerfs enchanters charm is GREATLY inferior to druid charm, why? well for one total domination is either broken or just not enough help, druids charm lasts 3 times longer(max duration) then ours. Even if our charms last 80-90%(being generous) they still last less then half of yours.--

That's MAX duration. Do some figures that are more practical. How much, if at all, do they last on the average. I charmed a light blue monster the other night, charm broke in less than 10 seconds...no exaggeration.

--Very false, post nerf a LOT of mobs have a "resistance" to charm which makes enchanters not be able to gain exp from them.--

You still have more options.

--Nope, bards were making 5 times the exp(read: Worry kited 100+ mobs in HoH for 5-6 AA points in 20 min, that is 1 AA every 4 minutes--

I heard about this. How many times was this person, or any other, able to do this without dieing? Was it just something they managed to do a couple of times, or can they sit there and do it all night? Of course the only person that could really answer this is the person that 'did' it, or someone that witnessed it directly.

The last one I am just curious about really. I've seen bards pull some pretty tricky stunts before...funny as heck when they die doing something so crazy, but still very cool when they pull it off.

Only thing more boring than a group single pulling for hours is charm solo'ing with the old COD and focus effects. Was *ZERO* risk. Any 6 year old could do it with no skill or intelligence involved. At least the bard mass solo'ing in HoH took skill and planning to perfect. Most enchanters took what 10 minutes to figure out how to solo in HoH basements? They were also doing it within the first week of POP.

Enchanter charm is still very very powerful, it's just not the complete free ride it used to be at 65. Still get insane DPS compared to players and free double damage if you pair mobs against each other.

Just a note:

Xitix is a chanter. A damned good one too ;)

Listen to what he says about chanters.


That being said, I can't applaud too many nerfs against other classes. Some nerfs are needed. I don't know about this one or not, as I rarely saw chanters soloing when I was still playing.

Cantatus and Xitix are both excellent chanters, and I would be honored to group with them anytime!

/hugs Cantatus - I miss you!

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> Why should you be able to charm things that are MUCH higher than you? If something is higher than you, that is saying it is, in general, more powerful than you. Based on charming things much higher, then a level 5 warrior should have no problems hitting a level 30 monster, and that would just be silly.[/quote]

Because the charm cap on Boltran's Agacerie was 54. This meant that any zone an Enchanter went to where the mobs were primarily 55+, charm was useless. Zones like Ssra and CT which where high end before PoP had very little, if anything, that could be charmed.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> Only thing more boring than a group single pulling for hours is charm solo'ing with the old COD and focus effects. Was *ZERO* risk. [/quote]

Definetly agree here. I remember being in pick up groups in Chardok and Sebilis and having people compliment me on being able to use charm so well or even using it at all. A lot of Enchanter didn't use it because it was too risky, well now the risk is back with PoP. However, I still adhere to the fact that they overnerfed this a little bit. Even with TD3, I have mobs that will break charm 4-5 times in a matter of minutes. I never had that many charm breaks before PoP.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>/hugs Cantatus - I miss you![/quote]

Miss you too, send some more mistells my way! :D

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Miss you too, send some more mistells my way! [/quote]

Just send me a tell when you are on, and i can mistell you all night long! :rolleyes:

I bet money that "many" turns out to be about 10. Out of those 10, 9 will return within two months.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I bet money that "many" turns out to be about 10. Out of those 10, 9 will return within two months.[/quote]

I don't know. I do know that I do not plan to cancel my account on June 1. I don't see the point in a demonstration with a business that wants my dollars. When I quit, it will be for good. If something isn't done, then I will ultimately become too frustrated to enjoy the game anymore. I don't how long it will take or when, but I should hope 3 accounts over 4 years with all expansions should have bought some reason for Sony to want to retain my loyalty with this product and others they will offer in my lifetime.

I will continue to argue the issues though. Who knows, Absor might read the thread.

I'll admit, being a monk, that I was one of those that wanted to see something done about enchanters, druids and necros in PoP. My reason...well my small guilds enchanter is like a ghost and so far ahead of the rest of the guild its not even funny. Our best druid left long ago for the resident uberguild after PoP put him so far ahead of the rest. The guild no longer has a high level necro. So was I for a nerf, you bet. Then I started thinking about it. Being a monk that got pasted with the nerf bat very recently I felt that before I should wish that same nerf bat to hit others maybe I should research it a bit. So, I've been trying to research the problems here and on the other boards.

My conclusion, the problem isn't the nerf but the implementation. SOE's inability to use the playerbase as a resource in design decisions is almost reaching epic proportions. Does it really hurt anything to go to the class board of the class your going to nerf to hell and back and ask for some input? Well, it takes time I guess. Isn't that what Alan/Absor is for though? If they just took a week to work on receiving input I guarantee you their options would increase tenfold and they would have a smaller chance of enraging an entire class. That's just one week, reading one thread, weeding out the morons, accumulating the sensible solutions and sculpting a solution. Any solution that invokes a 6-10 page thread on cancelling accounts is IMO a poorly thought out and hastily implemented one. Sure you'll have the hotheads that will threaten to cancel over any trivial thing, but I'm not sure this is the case here.

The playerbase is already used to beta'ing large portions of the game, but what does Sony do with their paying beta customers? They alter class defining abilities with little or no actual input from the class they are altering. Matter of opinion here, but the only time they seem to listen to the playerbase is when one class is screaming for the nerf of another. What's the point in that? Promoting resentment between classes only benefits one entity and thats SOE. Whilst you argue amongst yourselves you tend to forget who caused the problem in the first place. It only takes a reading of Machievilli's The Prince to see that this line of thinking has been around for a long time. How about we rise above it this time and work together. You don't have to cancel your accounts, but at the very least saying that you sympathize would at least offer encouragement to the nerfed. Even though SOE is not listening, their fellow players, guildmates, and friends are. Going through the monk nerf, I would have just been ecstatic to see other players in other classes to just show a little compassion, instead I had to trudge through miles of endless gloating and misinformation.

Speaking of,

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Did the pleading of them discussing the changes with us like they did in the case of Manaburn to Wizards and mitigation changes to Monks gain us the same curtousy? No.[/quote]

Cantatus, can't speak for the wizzies but the monks got exactly two responses in a 5-6 month period after 10,000 posts by angered monks. One was working as intended and tripe about mathematical models and the other was 4 months later saying "whoops we may have screwed up, but you still deserve to be nerfed to hell and back". Not once did they offer to even open one thread to explain their position and to listen to the concerns of others. Not once.

So let me say this "I sympathize with your plight, I sympathize with the lack of and unlikelyhood of a response from SOE, and I sympathize with the overall way every enchanter was affected by this nerf." Maybe, someone, someday at SOE will finally realize how little the signal to noise ratio would be over their so-called "fixes" if they just took the miniscule amount of time it would take to <strong>listen</strong> to their playerbase.

This may be a little late, but I don't come to this forum as my wife is the Druid, not I, I am an old timer Necro...but you wanna talk about nerfs?

Necros went from the most powerful solo class in the game to watch Druids, Enchanters, Mages, Wizzy's...should I go on?...out Solo us by far. Personally, I think druids are the safest class in the game to solo with...snare lasts for ever. We watched as the most powerful pet in game got nerfed, to where they can't tank greens...wow, we got lvl 60 pets with PoP, so did every other pet class.

As far as crying about not being able to solo? What other class was able to solo Mini-bosses? Who but Druids and Chanters can charm mobs that hit in the 700s+ on a reg basis. You don't see Necros doing that, how many undead camps are there that we can do this at? Ohhh, 1 or 2...

I don't like the nerf either, becuase it affects pet classes. I agree with the indivudual who said that you will still have no prob... /ooc '65 Nec LFG' /ooc '65 Druid LFG' /ooc '61 Chanter LFG' /ooc 'Chanter to <insert camp here>' ...while others wait for literally hours to get groups, or go off and solo.

Chanters get a nerf...I am not self centered, and have lived through some sucky nerfs, but LOL, by GOD, this is a game, if you quit becuase of a nerf, then I pitty you. /Cry you can't solo mini's anymore, oh the lvl 44 chanter can't get a group? Try being a lvl 44 Necro, or Druid. I am sorry, but it's all crap, this is a game, get over it, you are still one of the most wanted/needed classes in game, DPS or no.

I'm unsure why you think an enchanter is such a boon to a group.

Consider:

In PoP, you're likely to be facing single pulls all night.

Even if you get adds, any class with Greater Fetter does crowd control at least as well as an enchanter (I use Greater Fetter as my primary crowd control method, following with Tash and mez - if necessary, which it often isn't).

You can buy KEI in the nexus sufficient to last most play sessions.

Shaman haste brings many melee to the haste cap.

What does that leave us with?

"Lose the pet please - charmed pets take exp now."

And BTW Skydawg - soloing BoT mini's was removed with mob regen changes several weeks prior to the charm nerf. The charm nerf is in addition to that.

I'd like to take this opportunity to thank those Druids sympathetic to our cause - it is most appreciated.

Fayenka
65 Enchantress (until June 1st)

Maybe I am a little sympathetic, but not enough to cancel my account. Sure, this is an ok idea, but it won't work. Many of us can live without enchanters, and will continue to do so, when there are no enchanters around. Sure, when there's an enchanter around, I'll invite for crowd control, but it's just not necessary.

When I was playing Zarros grouping with enchanters was always cool. Yeah, shamans could haste/slow better, but mezzing adds was always more reliable than trying to root and hoping you don't get mobs immune to it. Also, if someone died, the fresh c3+ was right there instead of needing to go to the Nexus/PoK for it. Enchanters had a niche in a group as a slower, same as shamans, meaning you typically didn't need both, but there never seemed to be enough slowers to go around in the first place either...

The druid board is seriously the wrong place to complain about not being able to find a group. In PoP, slow is *needed* in every group. Shamans may be the preferred slower, but their aren't that many shamans to go around. I play an enchanter, trust me I know that slowing and hasting is not the fun part. Yes it does suck that groups no longer want enchanters to charm because the pet takes exp, and it does suck that enchanters' crowd control power has atrophied in PoP. But even so, enchanters still have an easier time than most classes finding a group.

First. Hi Tudamorf. Hope you are in good spirits and life has treated you well. Your views on the enchanter class affected me greatly in trying out new things and expanding and refining myself as an enchanter. I may not always agree with you but I always had respect for your opinions. Miss you on the caster realm enc boards. :)


<em>--(quote from Cantatus)It wasn't until PoP spell lines were put on Lucy that the Enchanter class forums started to become excited. Not only would we be able to mezz mobs our level and much higher, but we'd also have access to a charm spell that wasn't limited to only 42 seconds.--

(quote from gamilenka responding to Cantatus)Why should you be able to charm things that are MUCH higher than you? If something is higher than you, that is saying it is, in general, more powerful than you. Based on charming things much higher, then a level 5 warrior should have no problems hitting a level 30 monster, and that would just be silly.</em>

If you read carefully you'll see that Cantatus was mentioning mezzing higher level mobs than us. Not charming higher level mobs than us. We can not and never have (to the best of my knowledge) had the ability to charm mobs higher level than us.


For those who just do not get it. One of the class defining abilities of the enchanter class is to reverse the odds in the favor of either the enchanter or the enchanter's group depending on if he's soloing. His tools were any and everything available to him in the environment around him. An enchanter is only as good as his environment. As powerful as the enchanter class is percieved to be what fails to get mentioned is that he is also as weak as his environment. With PoP the zones were extremely conducive to charming mobs while very weak in the areas of crowd control. Simply put, crowd control was unneeded and that any caster with the PoP root upgrade was 80% as effective in crowd control as an enchanter in most situations. In most areas, rooting a mob and slowing it was about all you needed to do. A shaman can and does easily fill that role.

Would you like to hear the great secret of PoP and the need for encs? It's this, there is no need for encs. A shaman and/or a bard can fill the traditional roles an enchanter fills 90% of the time. The only thing keeping encs with a job in groups is the fact that the "Holy Trinity" of the war/enc/clr being required in EQ grind groups has been etched in the brains of the EQ players. KEI can easily be bought in areas like the Bazaar, Nexus or PoK. I have had rangers as mt and I have had druids as main healer in tier 2+ groups. It just depends on what you want to work with and how well you can adapt.

I have been a long time charm user and have been charming things since the original EQ game came out. I sucked at it. I sucked badly at it. In time I learned to control it and would charm krup level mobs in Sebilis back when Kunark was the only expansion. I had a hasted dual wielding krup frog while pulling for my group and performing crowd control on any respawns or multiple pulls. Now <strong>THAT</strong> was fun. I was dang powerful but I <strong>EARNED</strong> my power. PoP charming was too easy and I would agree it needed to be changed. However, the changes seem excessive when stacked upon all the other stealth nerfs. Instead of slowly scraping away at it's ease of use, they used a jackhammer where a scalpal was required. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm still able to solo but not nearly as effective as before. However, this still doesn't solve the fact that I'm now a freaking buffb___ in groups. Since I can still effectively solo (though with greater risk) why should I join groups and sit and buff people when I can enjoy the dangers of soloing and not knowing when death will come knocking on my doorstep?

It isn't just the charm nerf that has enchanters in an uproar. It's the fact that for months now we've had stealth nerf after stealth nerf after stealth nerf. We've given input on alternatives to the measures taken that would curb the unintended use of spells like Command of Druzzil. We've asked for confirmation on whether an effect in the game was intended or a bug and we get no response. What we're left with is a skeleton of the class we play and a company that doesn't respond to it's customers. I mean, come freaking on here. A simple statement on an aspect of gameply that was unintended and will get fixed eventually could have prevented a lot of hard feelings (affliction focus effect nerfs). Instead we get 6 months of silence then, boom, hello "fix" which totally screws you up since you've been building your gear with a certain set of focus items in mind. Heck, I have focus gear that currently does diddly squat for me in the bank. These could have went to more needy shamans.

This is a case of one straw too many on a camel's back. For those who don't get what this quote means, a single straw seems weightless but add them up and eventually you will add one straw too many and that will break a camel's back.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>PoP charming was too easy and I would agree it needed to be changed. However, the changes seem excessive when stacked upon all the other stealth nerfs. Instead of slowly scraping away at it's ease of use, they used a jackhammer where a scalpal was required. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm still able to solo but not nearly as effective as before.[/quote]

I have tried soloing in HoH and can get the first kill relatively easy for about 4% AA, then I find I've used half my mana with Charm broken and two angry unsnared mobs chasing me (too many Sentries). Not only is it inefficient, but I don't have the hit points from uber gear or AAs to frequently enough channel through the 2nd mez to survive long enough to Invis and run to zone or Gate. The risk isn't worth the reward for me; not by a long shot.

So, I LFG and always check "/who all lfg 60 65 shaman" to get an idea of about how long it will take. I will admit that I do receive multiple invites to BoT in relatively short order, but I can't accept them because I am not yet flagged for BoT.

I can still safely charm with my druid, but the nerfed exp is not worth not enjoying the company of a group for me.

We still use charm extensively...generally charm produces enough extra damage that the group still get significantly more exp with it than without. People just need to be shown that the exp penalty really isn't that bad. The best exp I've gotten recently has been crawling through ogres in tactics with a cleric/druid/enchanter group...we'd get about an AA in an hour or so with a single pass from the empty room to the south (above the pit) down to the armory where the zek bane mobs are.

After that, if people still say to lose the pet, then you're hunting with the wrong people. :P

Enchanters are still in very high demand and take active roles in my groups, with or without charm. We don't waste time trying to get single pulls when it's inconvenient; crowd control is still very much needed. Even if mobs are better off rooted than mezzed, tash makes roots stick much better. Slow/cripple, well, that goes without saying. Often the enchanter is the one pulling too, especially with pacification. The buffs are a nice bonus. And if there's really nothing else to do, insanity isn't bad as far as nukes go.

My friend still solos BoT effectively--and aside from the wand he bought with haste of solusek, he doesn't depend on gear to be able to do it. I'd highly recommend getting flagged for that zone. Also get flagged for tactics (using the alternate quest if needed, that's how I got in)...that's another great zone for charming, though I'm unsure about charm soloing there. Maybe with share form of the great wolf--with permanent illusion, it gives him +62% to run speed for 4 hours when I cast it.

Heh, several high end guilds have been fighting over my enchanter friend for a while, and he eventually gave in and joined one of them...so now I don't get to hunt with him as much anymore. :(

I hope that no one will mind if I post here, as I play an Enchanter (Kishi, level 60, Cazic Thule) instead of a druid. I have read the entire thread (as well as the corresponding ones on the Enchanters board on Castersrealm) and wished to comment.

While a lot of this thread has had to do with the "charm nerf," and while the protest by Enchanters does involve this "nerf," there is more to it than that.

The basic idea of our protest is that Enchanters (at 60) are largely no longer able to do what drew us to the class in the first place - mezzing. Now, I know you are going to say that I can still mezz, and while this is technically true, it is not quite what I am talking about. To use an illustration:

At level 20, I hunted in Highpass where I learned to mez. (I should add, by the way, that Kishi was my first character ever in EQ, so I was a TOTAL newbie when I started her out.) With practice, by level 30, I could "lock down" five mobs at a time quite easily (particularly after level 16 where I got my first "group" mez, which would "lock down" five mobs in one cast.)

At level 30, I went to places like Crystal Caverns and Cazic Thule (before its revamp, obviously.) At the time it was great fun to see who (of my chanter friends) could "lock down" (and keep locked down) the largest train with no deaths in their group. My personal best at the time was 10, which I was very proud of. I didn't do many trains of 10: but pulls of 5, 6, or 7 were not too uncommon. (Naturally no one meant to pull that many but I loved to hunt in train-y places like Karnors Castle where I would get lots of trains as a matter of course.)

At 40-ish, I went to Dreadlands and Karnors: lots of adds and lots of fun mezzing there. At 50, I made it into Seb and had a great time mezzing all sorts of stuff. (By that time, of course, they had bumped the level cap to 60... earlier I seem to recall that it was... 50? 55? I was super-new when they raised it so it didn't make much sense to me at the time.)

At any rate, from about level 20-ish to around level 58-ish, I had a job (crowd control!) and various means to accomplish this job, namely mezzes, stuns, and (to a much lesser extent) charms. I also had some secondary responsibilities (haste, slow, clarity etc.) Although my tools had undergone various level-related transformations, they remained basically the same, along with the job they were meant to accomplish. I also had something else in those days: I had the expectation that most of my spells would work most of the time.

At level 60, I no longer have this expectation. After spending 60 levels "crowd controlling" groups of five-ish, my crowds have dwindled, growing smaller and smaller and smaller until, many times, they have vanished entirely. Sure, I can still mez, but I end up mezzing *ONE* add. *ONE* add is NOT doing crowd control (a "crowd" generally means more than two units, a group of two has its own, special word - "pair!")

Enchanters such as myself, who had never learned to charm, started doing so in PoP. Why?

*Because there were no more crowds to control
*Because our stuns were gone
*Because of the increasing numbers of mobs that were commonly immune to all Enchanter spells and
*Because we were bored out of our collective minds.

Then came the charm-triple-nerf, brought about in response to the exploitations of a very small minority, nerfing all Enchanters all the way to level 16, and the other classes who could charm (who were unfortunately caught in the crossfire.)

I want to pause here for a moment and say that I would not disagree with the idea that high-level charm spells, such as Command of Druzzil and my own current charm spell, Beckon, needed adjusting of some form or other. The main disagreement with that particular "nerf" deals with the way that this "adjustment" was handled - overkill in the extreme. (As an aside, this makes some sense as the "test" enchanters the nerf was apparantly balanced against seemed to be fairly high in the "uber" category: I believe I heard terms like FT7 and 200-ish AAXP at the time... I am given to understand that with this sort of gear and AAXP backing, the "nerf" is much less noticable.)

Please forgive me for making this illustration (as I have never played a druid) but try to imagine for a moment (as a druid) being in a situation where, once you turn 60....

* Most mobs of more-than-a-certain level have been made immune to nukes and dots. (Please note, I am not talking about resists here. The message you would receive would be something like, THIS MONSTER IS IMMUNE TO THIS SPELL.) Some mobs are not immune, but there is no way to tell what is and isn't immune to which spell just by looking. Keep in mind that these same sorts of mobs were NOT immune to these spells in lower levels - you could nuke them at level 30, but cannot nuke them at level 60.

* Sow gives twice the run speed and lasts three hours, and you can get AAXP to make it last even longer, and people pester you for it all the time, and you can sell it in the nexus and make lots of money doing it

* Thorns still work the same

* Because a few high-level druids found an exploitative way to take down the Uber-mini-micro-mega-boss-bunny in the Plane-o-Many-Rabbits, SOE decides that Druids will still be able to heal but (a) will receive a 33% XP penalty for that pull any time a heal is used (b) will get twice the aggro that healing spells used to generate and (c) the spells involved now heal for random amounts that can vary depending on your gear and AAXP: druids with FT7 and 200AAXP hardly notice the "heal nerf" but druids with less notice that heals are now extremely unreliable, dangerous to use, and groups prefer that you not heal because of the XP nerf. This applies to ALL Druids, from level 1 on up - the only ones it doesn't seem to hurt are the ones that killed the Uber-mini-micro-mega-boss-bunny.

* Because of the Great Boss Bunny Exploit, snare is changed to cost twice as much mana, only work 50% of the time (and for only 50% as long) and generate twice as much aggro as it previously did.

What would your role in a group be? No snare, no heals, no DOTs, no nukes: your job would be Sow and Thorns. You can still technically solo, but now it is much harder, requires a great deal more mana, you die a lot more, and you get either 33% or 50% less experience (depending on whether you use your more-reliable or your less-reliable snare spell.)

Your "glory days" are not anything you are doing at level 60: they are your level 30 days when everything worked. Grouping is dull because SOMEtimes you can nuke and dot, but usually you just cast SOW and thorns.

Imagine that these changes (including all but the "heal nerf") are introduced without a word of explanation from any Verant employee, not even a line in the patch message. Imagine that you have a single message board which is overwhelmingly recognized in the Druid community as being "the" Druid board. Imagine that after three years of frequenting this board, you see the first (and only) post by a Verant employee, saying nothing more than he is aware of the board and that his email works. Imagine counting this is a huge victory, because up until that point there was considerable debate about whether or not Verant knew that there was a Druid board. Imagine listening to all the other classes gleefully cackle at these nerfs, which they believe you deserve because you can sell SOW in the bazaar. Finally, imagine posting the problems on another classes boards, not because they can help you... but because you know people from Verant see their boards... and you don't know that they see yours, or else they simply don't care.

How would you feel?

I will grant you that the illustration is not perfect (and again, please forgive me as I do not play a druid) but I hope that it helps to illuminate the larger issues which form the core of the Enchanter protest. As always I welcome comments...

...just let me put on my flame-proof suit. :)

Kishi
60th Enchanter
Cazic Thule

Welcome to the world of druids whose concerns and class had felt largely ignored for years.

The higher you go the more you feel that the holy trinity is still very lively, the corner stone still being enchanters.

Frankly, until I see no enchanter selling KEI, I will still think the class or spells are broken, the environment too and seeing more enchanters in groups now than pre-nerf, you have to think that it brought at least some good, not far from being the needed fix.

Where I play, the variants of KEI still dictate the rate of xp and in raid it crowd control or charm is still very much needed.

my 2 cp

(laughing) Touche. :)

Frankly, I would gleefully give up my entire line of charm spells, ALL of them, and gladly hand over my entire Clarity line to some other class (Druids!) if only I could stop trains the way I used to when I was thirty. Drool! Charming and Clarity are OK but crowd control is where it's at, and I miss it. :(

I have enjoyed reading your board though. :) I am actually considering the possibility of starting a Druid alt. :)

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The higher you go the more you feel that the holy trinity is still very lively, the corner stone still being enchanters.[/quote]

Really? I would say clerics are the cornerstones of groups. For the most part, a warrior as MA means the enchanter or shaman will be taking a beating and using alot of mana that they don't have to use with a pally or SK as MA. Druids are adequate for healing in many camps but not all. Also KEI is abundantly available whereas one usually has to search for Virtue (I think we can agree that druid hit point buffs are not a reasonable substitute in a group). Clerics are still king, but enchanters and warriors are no longer enjoying the "holy trinity".

/Threadjack on

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Druids are adequate for healing in many camps but not all.[/quote]

LIES!!!:|

Druids can be and are adequate healers in tier2 groups and BoT. I know, I've been in them with a druid and I have been the druid (lvl 65, not too well equipped druid) provided they have a slower. So yes I'm well aware of the differences as I have access to both and they are frequently 2boxed. Any druid who says it can't be done either sucks or is too chicken crap to try. You do have to go slower than with a cleric healer but it can be done. Killing slowly beats ooc'ing "group looking for cleric" all night.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Druids can be and are adequate healers in tier2 groups and BoT.[/quote]

I feel safer with a 62 cleric healing and buffing than a 62 druid in tier 2, assuming equal skill and attention given to the game. I can't even imagine a 65 druid being able to heal against the named giants in the fort in PoS for that matter. I guess it could be done, but seems to me that would require exceptional AAs, gear and skills.

Druids are adequate to the task for the slower heals, but for the fast heals or heal over times, which are very useful, I think they just don't cut it. Then compound that with a buff that gives far fewer hit points than Virtue or Aego and it's a big obstacle to having a druid replace a cleric. But I really think the buff issue is probably bigger than the heal issue.

Nine:Increase HP when cast by 618
Virute:Increase HP when cast by 1405

Do you really want your group's MT to have almost 1000 fewer hitpoints by not having a cleric in PoP?

Excellent post, Kishi. While I've played an Enchanter in some high-end situations (inherited a lvl 61 awhile back) I had not gotten there "the hard way" and your post helps explain the effects of some of the other nerfs to the Enchanter class.

I have never understood the mez nerf but didn't realize how much it altered gameplay for the class as a whole.

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Well Druids never had a severe nerf and pretty gotten everything they wanted so they don't know what it is like to have it bad.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I feel safer with a 62 cleric healing and buffing than a 62 druid in tier 2, assuming equal skill and attention given to the game. I can't even imagine a 65 druid being able to heal against the named giants in the fort in PoS for that matter. I guess it could be done, but seems to me that would require exceptional AAs, gear and skills.[/quote]

I've been the only healer in a group in every zone except PoT and it can be done. Karana's Renewel is the same as a Complete heal for most tanks and Nature's Infusion one of the greatest druids spells imo.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Do you really want your group's MT to have almost 1000 fewer hitpoints by not having a cleric in PoP?[/quote]

OH NOS!1!! Do you think the same way when you have no shaman and Paladin? A Druid is an adequate healer in ANY zone period.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Well Druids never had a severe nerf and pretty gotten everything they wanted so they don't know what it is like to have it bad.[/quote]

/yawn :lol:

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I've been the only healer in a group in every zone except PoT and it can be done. Karana's Renewel is the same as a Complete heal for most tanks and Nature's Infusion one of the greatest druids spells imo. [/quote]

Are you intentionally avoiding that while you can heal in many cases, you cannot do so in all cases? That you have been the healer in all of those zones isn't so unique nor does it mean you can handle all of the camps in those zones. Can honestly say you can heal against the named giants in PoS fort? I offered the example because I seriously doubt any druid could do it. Some things are mathematically impossible, regardless of how skilled somone is or how hard that person tries. The reality is that there are some camps that require a 9000 hit point plus warrior and a cleric.

Even in camps where a druid can heal adequately, the value of a rez becomes most pronounced when the group is decimated by the all too frequent trains caused by others not in the group. The trains may not happen every night or they may happen several times in one sitting, but they are common enough that people remember them and find comfort in having a cleric in the group for rezzes.

This isn't a debate about whether or not druids can heal in most groups, it is somehow a debate over whether or not other players prefer a cleric over a druid as the group healer. Frankly, I wonder if some people are arguing for the sake of arguing. Many of us play our druids well and can do many nifty things, but druids do not have the healing efficiency of a cleric, do not have CH, do not have a rez and do not have hit point buffs remotely close to that of a cleric.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>This isn't a debate about whether or not druids can heal in most groups, it is somehow a debate over whether or not other players prefer a cleric over a druid as the group healer. Frankly, I wonder if some people are arguing for the sake of arguing. Many of us play our druids well and can do many nifty things, but druids do not have the healing efficiency of a cleric, do not have CH, do not have a rez and do not have hit point buffs remotely close to that of a cleric.[/quote]

This is all as it should be. I would not trade the variety of things I can do for any ability that clerics get which I do not have. When I am the main healer I prefer to have a shaman as the slower and a warrior as the MA. Shaman for added hps + slow, bard for mez, and a tank. After that its anyone else who is lfg. I like my rangers and my monks, my BLs, my mages, my enchanters, my wizards, my necros, paladins, shadowknights.

The whole rez thing is another issue. Something different entirely. To me, its something that is broken in this game. Sort of like CH is/was.

All this is way off the topic.

Enchanters have some legitimate complaints, IMO.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Are you intentionally avoiding that while you can heal in many cases, you cannot do so in all cases?[/quote]

That can go for anyone including clerics.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Can honestly say you can heal against the named giants in PoS fort?[/quote]

Yes, and I've done it many times. Jeebuz, this isn't rocket science. I've been the only healer in a group against almost every uber mob.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Some things are mathematically impossible, regardless of how skilled somone is or how hard that person tries. The reality is that there are some camps that require a 9000 hit point plus warrior and a cleric.[/quote]

Nothing requires a cleric and there are MANY guilds that use a Druid Cheal rotation that will agree.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>the value of a rez becomes most pronounced when the group is decimated by the all too frequent trains caused by others not in the group.[/quote]

Pally's and Necro's can still rez. Clerics are not the only ones.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>This isn't a debate about whether or not druids can heal in most groups, it is somehow a debate over whether or not other players prefer a cleric over a druid as the group healer.[/quote]

No, you said Druids were adequate for healing in many camps but not all and I'm telling you that is incorrect.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Many of us play our druids well and can do many nifty things, but druids do not have the healing efficiency of a cleric, do not have CH, do not have a rez and do not have hit point buffs remotely close to that of a cleric.[/quote]

You sure give alot of reasons why you can't do something...you're a glass is half empty guy aren't you? We are druids....which means we can fill ANY spot required. I've been a Main Assist, Main Tank, Tank mezz, Coher, Main healer, spot healer, debuffer, nuker etc...You get my point. We can do anything AND do it well enough to succeed.

Hit points isn't everything, Protection of the Nine has a 8 mana regn per tick which every class less pure melee choose over virtue in my guild. Virtue sucks...it's only good for using up only 1 buff slot.

So... you're saying that if they had a choice between PoTN and Virtue for hit points, they'd take PoTN?

Oh yeah, lets not forget about the little Kazad's Mark being MGB'd... that adds even more hit points than virtue alone. But there's one thing you need for Kazad's... that's a cleric.

Haven't we had enough of the cleric vs druid debate?

Both classes have their strong and weak points.

Fact of the matter is that many players prefer the convenience and security of a cleric in their group. WIth PoP graveyards and smaller zones, its less necessary, but its ingrained and it will continue to be ingrained in the culture of the game.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>So... you're saying that if they had a choice between PoTN and Virtue for hit points, they'd take PoTN?[/quote]

I'll take Nine over Virtue anytime...mana is more important to me then hit points...but yes..Kazad is pretty coo:P

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Nothing requires a cleric and there are MANY guilds that use a Druid Cheal rotation that will agree.[/quote]
We aren't talking about a guild of druids. Just one group with a healer, regardless of the what the rest of the group makeup is.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Pally's and Necro's can still rez. Clerics are not the only ones.[/quote]
That would be great if we were discussing the virtues of having a pally or necro in the group, but we aren't. Druids cannot rez, but a cleric can.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>No, you said Druids were adequate for healing in many camps but not all and I'm telling you that is incorrect. [/quote]
And I'm telling you that you are incorrect. Now draw!

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>You sure give alot of reasons why you can't do something...you're a glass is half empty guy aren't you? We are druids....which means we can fill ANY spot required. I've been a Main Assist, Main Tank, Tank mezz, Coher, Main healer, spot healer, debuffer, nuker etc...You get my point. We can do anything AND do it well enough to succeed.[/quote]
I never jumped off my roof thinking that if a bird could fly, then by golly I can too.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Hit points isn't everything, Protection of the Nine has a 8 mana regn per tick which every class less pure melee choose over virtue in my guild. Virtue sucks...it's only good for using up only 1 buff slot.[/quote]
Somehow, I don't think the MA is all choked up with gratification that he is getting your mana regen and 1k less hit points.

I get the impression that you are forgetting to mention that your guild buddies come to your group and cast focus when you don't have shaman and a symbol/mark when you don't have a pally in your group. However, if you (just you) are able to effectively heal against the named in the PoS fort then you are trully beyond the capabilties of any druid I've seen. That a tank could survive that encounter more than a couple rounds without any cleric buffs is in itself amazing to me. Could it be that you are a really uber druid?

WOW!

What's up with the negativity? So many "we can't do this, we can't do that" post from druids. Originally this was to point druids to the plight of the enchanter class and why we feel we are being slighted by Verant. Over a long period of time we've had our main abilities erode due to change in the way zones are designed and populated (most PoP zones are outdoors and you'd have to be the village idiot to pull more than two mobs unless you meant to pull a lot) as well as dilution of our main buffs due to increases to other class (mezzing bards, hasting shamans). That's it. We've slowly had our abilities taken away since Velious and the invention of the "buffwhore" status. Now it seems the tone has changed to one of how the druid can't do jack and is the crippled stepchild of EQ. BS. I have a 65 druid as well as a 65 enchanter as stated. My first character was an enchanter and it will always be my first love (not counting the one week when I first signed up and made a mage) but a druid is an extremeley powerful class if played right. I've done things two boxing my druid and enchanter that would take others full groups to achieve (and no I'm not talking about soloing BoT wing bosses). It's a game. Go out and take some risks. All this whining about what you can't do. Go out and take some risks and have some fun.

Probably my last post in this thread. Thank you for listening. And I do understand that not all druids are afraid of trying tough tasks or overly negative.

pity 'em all.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I've done things two boxing my druid and enchanter that would take others full groups to achieve [/quote]
Duh! And there are more things that a full group can do than your two box team. But noone was talking about two boxing.

I am perplexed as to when this game became so populated with cheerleader game nazis who do not even pretend to be objective.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I am perplexed as to when this game became so populated with cheerleader game nazis who do not even pretend to be objective.[/quote]

There are some people who will never admit to the validity of anyone else's points. They are incapable of being objective. Its not an insult towards you.

Oh come on folks....we're confusing several issues here.

<strong>Issue #1 -- Optimum Efficiency</strong>
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>We are druids....which means we can fill ANY spot required. [/quote]
But can we fill any spot <strong><em>efficie</em></strong>[/i]?
For most xp grind situations, it's not about what a Druid is or isn't capable of. The issue is <strong>what is optimally efficient for the group.</strong> Every person starting a pick-up group has an idea for what would make a fun, efficient xp-generating machine. Sure Druids can (and do) tank sometimes with meager HPs. Is it more efficient than a Plate Tank? Sure Druids can (and do) Nuke/DoT for DPS. Is it more efficient than a comparable Wizzie? Sure Druids can (and do) keep a decent group alive in PoP zones. Is it more efficient than a comparable Cleric?

Most pick-up groups (not friends, guildies, etc....PICK UP groups) are looking for the most kills in the least time. Groups starting out in PoP zones most often look for a Plate Tank, Cleric and Shaman to begin with and will fill in other substitutes if those primary classes aren't available right away. A group of 5 melees will definitely prefer a Druid over no xp, but if a comparable Cleric and Druid went LFG at the same time, how many times will the melee opt for the Druid?

Now, a good/well-geared Druid can perhaps out-heal an average cleric, but how many pick-up groups are willing to take that chance, especially when there's no rez waiting if things get messy?

<strong>Issue #2 -- Equipment/AA Disparities</strong>
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Can honestly say you can heal against the named giants in PoS fort? -- <em>Yes, and I've done it many times. Jeebuz, this isn't rocket science. I've been the only healer in a group against almost every uber mob</em>.[/quote]

Alyster is in our server's top guild. He's got amazing gear and lots of AAs. If I simply took his word for it and attempted to be the lone healer in a PoS fort group would I have the same success? Perhaps I would, but I doubt it. In addition, if he's grouping with guildies, they also have amazing gear and a number of AAs, making the job of healer much different than a pick-up group where you really have no idea what kind of setup other players have (other than their basic AA titles).

<strong>Summary</strong>
I am NOT trying to create baseless excuses for not joining groups or attempting challenging things. I agree that Druids shouldn't be afraid of taking risks, but there is much to be lost in the way of reputation, time, xp opportunities and gear, for myself and 5 other folks, if I convince a group that I can fill a particular role and then do not have the adequate means to do so.

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<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I agree that Druids shouldn't be afraid of taking risks, but there is much to be lost in the way of reputation, time, xp opportunities and gear, for myself and 5 other folks, if I convince a group that I can fill a particular role and then do not have the adequate means to do so.[/quote]

Touche

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This isn't a debate about whether or not druids can heal in most groups, it is somehow a debate over whether or not other players prefer a cleric over a druid as the group healer.
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No, you said Druids were adequate for healing in many camps but not all and I'm telling you that is incorrect




LOL I agree druids can replace clerics in EXP groups only.. (Only if they have no cleric avail) however, I pity the raid that has a druid CH chain and no cleric buffs against agnarr in BoT.

Druids cannot replace clerics in a high end raid situation. In simple places like Hot, Kael stuff like that yea maybe. But high end stuff? like the zek's, bertoxx, etc... no way..

Sancta Nox
Level 64 Hierophant

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Touche[/quote]
Heh.

I guess it's a lot easier to make pithy comebacks than refute valid points eh? =P

Out of curiousity, how often do you group with "average" level 61-65 players in Tier 2-3 zones? A very different game when you're not using the best-equipped melee on the server.

Primero Aventurero
63 Druid

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I guess it's a lot easier to make pithy comebacks than refute valid points eh? =P[/quote]

touche = excellent point or something to that extent.:P

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Out of curiousity, how often do you group with "average" level 61-65 players in Tier 2-3 zones? A very different game when you're not using the best-equipped melee on the server.[/quote]

Normally I don't use any melee in my groups because slow dps sucks and you can just use a pet which will deal more damage and be able to take more damage so I use the same melee that are available to any other druid at my level. As for tier 2-3 zones...why xp there if you dont' need to. I think you'd do the same. What is "average" level 61-65? You think I just appeared on the server at 65 with good gear? I joined my guild in my full suit of Elysian that I camped just like so many other druids. There are many grouping druids out there like myself who either didn't like quad kiting/soloing and had to do whatever it took to get a group which many times meant being the only healer. You find a way to do your job and thats what I did. I know there are many grouping druids who are amazing healers. Yes, I sacrifice my nuking ability to heal more, but thats the route I went. While I agree, many who specialized in evocation may not be able to uphold the duties of being the primary healer there are many that can. My point was that there are different types of druids. I couldn't quad kite as fast as a evocation druid, and they wouldn't be able to keep a group healed perhaps as well as me. Don't be so closed minded to think that if it's something you cannot do, another type of druid couldn't either. I've heard about the octo-kiting druids or that guy who was AEing 30+ mobs in the grey, both things being something I don't have much faith in my ability to acheive, but I have no doubt that someone else could.

It's June 1... how many enchanters ended up actually cancelling?

I'm just curious - other classes have threatened to quit en masse over some nerf or other, but to my knowledge no class has actually done that. Monks did do a sit-in once, but that's about the only organized protest I can recall that got anyone's attention.

I am interested in that myself, but haven't yet been able to get a tally.

I did write a letter to SOE, though. I have included it below:

+++++

June 1, 2003

To: SOE Customer Service

From: Jennifer Lochabay
(Level 60 Enchanter Kishi, Cazic Thule)

RE: Organized Enchanter Protest and Account Cancellations

Ladies and Gentlemen:

Permit me to introduce myself. My name is Jennifer. I am a current Everquest subscriber, and have been one for approximately three years now. I am writing in regards to a protest which has been organized by a number of "high level" Enchanters (levels 60 and above) who are cancelling their accounts today. Each Enchanter who is cancelling their account (as well as a number of others) are writing e-mails to customer service today, in hopes of bringing attention to a number of issues. Though I fear a mass of angry letters, I hope that everyone has been polite. I would like to present an outline of the basic issues which the Enchanter community faces, which will hopefully clarify the reasons behind the protest. I am afraid my letter will be long, for which I apologize in advance.

The basic crux of the matter has to do with the overall way in which the Enchanter class changes once the character reaches about level 60. While it is not to be denied that all classes change once they reach 60, it seems to me that Enchanters experience a far greater shift in their duties and gameplay style then other classes do.

Before I break down this shift in the general Enchanter environment, I wish to bring up an additional point which has served, I think, to compound feelings all around. I know many Enchanters that are frustrated over the perceived indifference of Sony/Verant/SOE to their concerns. I realize that this perception may not necessarily be correct in Verant's view, but it is present and it is widespread, and it is something that ought to be brought to the attention of customer service. The current protest, in fact, came about in part because of frustration at the feeling that no one at Verant was "listening" to anything that Enchanters said or did. This customer-service-related frustration seems to have the following common themes:

1) Enchanters who write letters to Customer Service do not receive any responses of any sort. I have seen many complaints of writers who have sent letters to customer service and (a) do not know if their letters ever arrived and (b) do not know if their letters were read (presuming that they got there.) This is particularly frustrating to writers who (realizing they will be dismissed as nutcases if they write a letter filled with ranting and raving) have taken the time to present a polite and informative letter, possibly including logs, only to have that letter (once sent) disappear, with no response of any kind.

2) There have been a number of occasions where changes to spells have been present in patches, without a corresponding explanation in the patch message. Sometimes these patch messages have later been amended to include the correct information... and sometimes they haven't.

3) There seems to be a lack of "progress reports" regarding projects which Verant/SOE has stated that they were working on. For example, some time ago Verant announced that they were beginning the process of "caster balancing." The first classes that were "balanced" as a result of this were the "priest" classes - druids, clerics, shamans, etc. Presumably the "int" casters (Wizards, Necromancers, Enchanters, Mages) would have been next. There has, however, been no announcement regarding balancing these classes. Recently there was a message stating that Verant would be looking at melee damage and "int caster" spells - but it was never said whether or not this was part of "caster balancing," or a seperate project. While I use "caster balancing" as an example, there are a number of projects which have had no status reports in a while. This is not an Enchanter-specific complaint (the only non-Enchanter-specific complaint which I will be addressing in this letter) but it is a source of frustration, particularly when you are keenly interested in one of those projects. "Night's Dark Terror," for example, languished for months (I believe it was nearly a year) without a word regarding its status.

Of these three issues, the most frustrating is the lack of response from Verant; any response at all to the Enchanter community would be very much appreciated.

The remainder of the issues which have spurred today's protest all revolve around a common theme: the idea that an Enchanter's role in the game world of Everquest changes so dramatically at level 60 or thereabouts that the people who have played Enchanters from level 1 (and loved them) are quitting out of boredom and frustration. That's a sad statement. The players who are organizing this protest are mostly the ones who have played their Enchanters for two or three years: many of them are level 65, many have over 200 days played on their character, and many of them have dozens of AAXP points. These are people that carry their epics and who are hunting in "Tier 2" or "Tier 3" planes. Sometimes these are people who have multiple accounts. That represents a part of the playerbase with an enormous amount of time, energy, and money invested in their characters. These are the people who have organized today's protest, and they are leaving.

I am aware that there has been a lot of outcry over the recent "charm nerf" which changed the way that Enchanter charm was handled. While the "charm nerf" is important, it is not the sole reason for the protest - it is a piece of the puzzle, but not the entire picture. I hope that this letter will help to place the "charm nerf" within its proper context of overall Enchanter dissatisfaction. Permit me to relate my own experiences to help illustrate this idea.

I first joined the world of Everquest as a result of a gift - some good friends got me Kunark for my birthday (this was a big deal at the time as it was brand-new, still-warm-off-the-burners fresh.) When I asked my friend what sort of character I could play, he happened to mention, "Enchanters can make jewelry."

I immediately went home and started an Enchanter.

You could not imagine a more clueless beginner than I was when I started Kishi (my first ever character, a high elf Enchanter.) After getting hopelessly lost in Felwithe for a while, eventually I stumbled outside and discovered bats to fight. After a while of punching bats, some total stranger took pity on me ("Er, how long have you been playing?" "Including today?" "Sure." "Forty minutes!") and helped me discover amazing things I never knew before (Bat wings stack! This knife is equippable! These roundish things are called, "spell gems...")

Eventually my friends found me (I was level 2 by that time!) and took me to their "home base" - the human city of Freeport. Most of my early "levelling up" was done there: from the "newbie zone" to East Commonlands to West Commonlands to Oasis and so on.

At level 20, I found myself in the Karanas. Yet another person took pity on me again, and kindly informed me that Enchanters could "mez" things, explained the definition of the word, "assist", and suggested that I try levelling in dungeons. (I wish I remembered who that was!)

So at 20, I went to Highpass Keep, and hunted goblins in the basement. It was here that I first started to learn the nuts and bolts of crowd control, got my first "group mez" spell, and started comprehending the idea that Enchanters Do Crowd Control. It was not uncommon, at this time, to get "trains" which could number a dozen or more for really big trains, though most averaged four or five. With practice, I could "lock down" all these "adds" so that my group could take one at a time. This was fun and it was very exciting, and I was hooked.

At level 30 I went to Crystal Caverns and hunted Orcs and Cystal Spiders (my favorites, of course, were the spiders, and I hunted them whenever I possibly could.) I discovered the pre-revamp Cazic Thule a little late to get good XP there and so didn't hunt there as much as I would have liked to, but did "lock down" a train of TEN(!!!) lizards (I was very proud of that at the time.) At level 40, I went to the Dreadlands and to Karnors Castle. At level 50, I went to Velketors Labrynth and Old Sebilis, and hunt there to this day (though XP has bottomed out around level 55-ish.)

Thus, for my first 55 levels, my Enchanter Kishi has had one overriding theme: Enchanters Do Crowd Control.

In order to pursue this theme, I have spell lines which, if divided into groups, would look something like this. For ease of writing, I am calling the "main" spell groups those spells which affect combat and the "sub" spells the spells that don't.

MAIN SPELL GROUPS:

* Mezzes (single and group)
* Stuns (color stun series)
* Charm (never a huge fan but need to include it here)
* Buffs/debuffs (Clarity/haste/slow)
* Miscellaneous (Fear, Root)

SUB SPELL GROUPS:

* Illusions
* Enchanting (Enchant Metals etc.)

Of the three "main" spell lines, the function of three of them have been drastically changed (three and a half if you include some of the spells in the "miscellaneous" category.) Of the "sub" spell lines, one of the two has also undergone modification.

Let's take a look at each "group" individually:

* MEZZES

Remember that, for the first 55-ish levels of the life of my Enchanter, she was able to "lock down" five mobs (or more when things got overly exciting) at once. At level 60, mezzing is no longer the same, for the following reasons:

* Zones such as Velketors and Old Sebilis, with lots of adds to lock down, did not seem to make it into Planes of Power. That is not to say that they are not necessarily out there, but I haven't yet found any of them.

* Pulling has changed, and most "crowd control" happens at the beginning of the pull, not at the PC "camp." At level 60, when the puller brings an "add" it is normally one add. Furthermore, it becomes more and more difficult (as Enchanters progress in levels) to keep that ONE add locked down. Compare level 65 (locking down one add) to level 35 (locking down 5 adds) - locking down 5 adds was more difficult and provided more fun for the Enchanter. This is not to say that locking down the one add is not an important contribution to that group - it certainly is! - but it lacks the excitement of the bygone, crazy, lock-down-the-trains days that these Enchanters spent their entire lives doing.

* This problem is compounded by the lack of a "group" mez spell and also by the fact that Greater Fetter (a "root" spell) is generally accepted to be more reliable and less mana-intensive than mezzing. Imagine how frustrating it is (after 55 levels of locking down trains) to be reduced to crowd-control-via-root (actually that statement would more correctly be, "PAIR control via root.")

STUNS

* The color stun series has not been continued past level 55. Stuns were incredibly useful to have, saving many an Enchanter from a beating because of a missed mez. I, personally, discovered the color stun series at level 20. They remain permanently in my spell line up to this day (as I have chosen to hunt mostly in those "older" zones (such as Sebilis) where I can do crowd control.) Many Enchanters, particularly those in Tier 2 and higher planes, do not have this option. Put bluntly: we miss our stuns. Bring them back!

Oh, and Word of Morrell is not the same - it is resisted to the point where many Enchanters have simply moved it to the back of their books.

CHARM

* So much has been said about the "charm nerf" that I feel there is not much I will be able to add to it. However I do wish to state that I believe the "nerf" that went in (aggro modifiers, XP penalty, and higher resists) was overkill, particularly for lower-level Enchanters. (Please try to explain to me why a level 12 Enchanter needs a 33% XP penalty for using their first Charm spell!) As the problems which occured with Charm occured with its higher-level versions (Beckon and Command of Druzzil) I believe that the "nerf" should have been confined to these spells in particular. I know that many logs have been sent in regarding this change and I hope that one day you will at least re-evaluate the change.

The main thing to remember about the charm change is that Charm was considered the last of the "main" spells which remained to Enchanters after PoP came out. Enchanters who no longer mezzed or stunned turned to Charming, sheerly out of boredom from the "lock down one add" syndrome described above. This is part of the reason that the response to it was so heated.

BUFFS/DEBUFFS

* The obvious starting point, KEI, has undergone a change recently to make it uncastable on lower-level characters. I wish to say that I wholeheartedly support this change. The main objection to our buffs and debuffs, nowadays, is that this is all (if anything) that an Enchanter brings to a group. There are many Enchanters who feel that since they are not stunning, they are not mezzing, and they are not charming, they are nothing but "buff bots." This is compounded by the idea that an Enchanter can cast KEI on a group, and the group can go off and hunt somewhere without inviting the Enchanter. A "twin" theme to this idea is the idea that a Shaman is now a better group choice than an Enchanter - since crowd control is usually done via root and/or FD, and Shaman haste is sufficient to bring most melee classes to their "haste cap," there is no reason to have an Enchanter if there is a Shaman present: their slow is better, and they have a better chance of surviving the beating from a missed slow (or even a successful one.)

MISCELLANEOUS

* It is hard to say much about this group as it encompasses all the spells that do not fit well into another category. However, one bone of contention in this category is Theft of Thought (it only returns mana up to about level 55, then stops.)

ILLUSIONS:

* This is a "fun" category and I personally happen to be a huge fan of illusions. The recent faction work on illusions, however, has left a problem: illusions (and their resultant faction changes) are required at low levels to get our first "enchant mana" line of spells. These spells are not carried at any other vendor. The change to the faction of this line of spells means that a low level Enchanter cannot obtain them on their own at an appropriate level without getting a druid to assist with wolf-form. It is a sad statement that such an Enchanter now cannot get at their own spells without the assistance of another class.

ENCHANTING:

* No real complaints about the "Enchanting" part of an Enchanter. I know that many Enchanters do not enjoy tradeskilling and consider these spells wasted, but I DO enjoy it and like them very much. Well done!

In conclusion, I hope that this letter has been helpful in illustrating the larger issues which face the Enchanter community, as well as the points of frustration which have given wings to this protest. I am sorry to say that Verant has lost a lot of players today. I remain hopeful, however, that you will eventually consider the plight of the high-level Enchanter community, and find some way to bring back the fun and joy inherent in the Enchanter class.

I remain,

Yours sincerely,

Jennifer, player of

Kishi
60th Enchanter
Cazic Thule

++++

I also am watching this with interest. I hope that SOE pays attention, though I have my doubts.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>touche = excellent point or something to that extent.:P[/quote]
Ahh, my mistake then. I thought you were pointing at my comments as making <em>your</em> point, which I didn't quite understand.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>You think I just appeared on the server at 65 with good gear? I joined my guild in my full suit of Elysian that I camped just like so many other druids.[/quote] Not at all. Harmonium is a quality guild (insofar as I've seen) and I certainly have no problem with getting excellent gear as part of a reward for your contribution to the guild's success.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>As for tier 2-3 zones...why xp there if you dont' need to. I think you'd do the same. [/quote]Absolutely correct.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>My point was that there are different types of druids....Don't be so closed minded to think that if it's something you cannot do, another type of druid couldn't either. [/quote]
I agree with that as well. Believe me, if I didn't think Druids were the most fun and versatile class in EQ I definitely have the resources to roll up another toon to 60 pretty quickly. My main frustration was being told to try something that for a variety of reasons (including many things I can't control) would lead to problems for myself and others.

Your point applies in many cases, however, and we do tend to get stuck in a rut from time to time. Stretching is a GOOD thing. It just requires some wisdom to know WHEN to strecth.

Cheers,

Primero Aventurero
63 Druid

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>That would be great if we were discussing the virtues of having a pally or necro in the group, but we aren't. Druids cannot rez, but a cleric can[/quote]

POP graveyard. Same thing as POK stones.

POP graveyard made having a cleric/paladin/necro in your group for rez as necessary as POK stones made having a druid/wizard in your group for ports. They are both a matter of convenience and not necessity now.

Sure having a cleric/pally/necro in your group will cut your rez time down a little versus getting that rez at the graveyard. Having a druid/wizard in your group cuts down run times to Grimling forest, Dawnshroud peaks, Karanas, Surefall glade, Twilight sea and a host of other places accessable from there and also aids in returning from one way dungeons and deep in zones with no POK stone (ie SSRA raids, planes raids etc) Also the cleric can not succor or evac the group out when things start to go wrong. Can not quad kite. Can not snare, can not dot. Is the only class with a pet more worthless than boo-boo. (man knowing our pet-I feel for you there) My beastlord alt's pet is already much more useful then my cleric or druids pet and he is 45 levels lower.

lets not start comparing what a cleric can do versus what a druid can do. Two different classes with two different strengths and two different weaknesses.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>lets not start comparing what a cleric can do versus what a druid can do. Two different classes with two different strengths and two different weaknesses.[/quote]

Sorry, but people do compare apples and oranges when deciding which fruit to put on the table and people do compare clerics and druids when deciding upon what to look for in forming a group (actually, I bet druid never enters the equation most of the time). There is no reason to be politically correct about this. I'm not really a druid; I just play one in a game. When some are arguing that the differences are only perceived and others are arguing that the differences are perceived and real, it is unavoidable that those differences enter the discussion.

PS. Clerics can DoT. I'm not saying they are the masters of DoTs, but to state empirically that they cannot DoT is incorrect.

What was so different in my statement than this one

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Druids cannot replace clerics in a high end raid situation[/quote]

they can--maybe not as efficiently but they can

or this one


<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Porting is gone[/quote]

Hmm all the ports are still there and dawnshroud, twilight, stonebrunt, surefall, karanas are still the fastest way to get to those places or anywhere close

or this one

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The reality is that there are some camps that require a 9000 hit point plus warrior and a cleric[/quote].

what can a cleric do that two druids cant? more people but the quote did not say 'without using more people"

or this one where someone says they have done something and it it still disputed.
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, you said Druids were adequate for healing in many camps but not all and I'm telling you that is incorrect.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


And I'm telling you that you are incorrect. Now draw![/quote]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can honestly say you can heal against the named giants in PoS fort? -- Yes, and I've done it many times. Jeebuz, this isn't rocket science. I've been the only healer in a group against almost every uber mob.[/quote]

There are many statements made as fact that are in fact untrue in other ways.

The simple fact is our dots are less mana efficient than our nukes. DOTs by definition should be more mana efficient as a trade off for doing the damage over an extended time. Ours are not. and ours only work on undead. If there is one thing there is less of in the game then animals it is undead.

So you can nitpick the words but unless you are willing to do that to all the above posts, the statement intent still stands. For all intents and purposes we have no dots.

clerics probably are a little better in groups, and probably should be a little better. Groups want specialist and specialist pay in not being able to solo.

I can only speak for myself but I will trade our damage mitigation, better healing and rezzes for your quad kiting, snare, sow, invis, wider range and more efficient nukes (instead of just magic based ones), dots, charm undead spells, ports, debuff lines, circle of winter/summer spells.

You can share our hp/ac buffs if I can share your regen/wolf form FOE buffs.

I honestly believe if they just combined both classes and gave both all of the others spells, clerics would gain more than druids. Would be interesting to try for a month or so and then go back. Imagine what we could do if they combined our class powers?

I think you will find our rez has gone the way of your ports. With pally rezzes only making a difference of 5-10 minutes of exp in pop and graveyards, a rez is only a setback of 5 or so minutes now. There is a click stick cleric or 90% capable pally in every POP zone, usually sitting at the GY. And most clerics rez for free. I even do. Even though I have never understood why. People pay for SOW, ports, KEI, Virtue, HOV and even temprance, but everyone thinks a rez from an epicless cleric they are not even in a group with should be free. And hang me if the majority of us dont comply. Call us stupid. They have added things to make the game easier for the general population that has taken away from both of our classes.

I was always a "grass is always greener on the other side" person also. Now I have one of each. And they are balanced.

cleric gets groups easier but is 100% reliant on groups. Only 2 hours to play? either tradeskill or dont bother logging on the cleric. In a group and the tank leaves with no replacement available in PONb? tough luck--you sure are not going to solo.

The druid side of me says "I can log on for 15 minutes and get two quads worth of exp" BUT "I cause a lot of downtime in groups when we are fighting high blue or yellow/red mobs." and when the enchanter starts to go down fast due to aggro, the druid just does not have the spells to cope.

I am in agreement with terimoon here. I dont know which I would pick as my favorite. My cleric is my main but most of the time I have a lot more fun with my druid, cause she lets me be versatile. With the druid I feel like I slow the group down as main healer but with the cleric I feel like I am chained to a group.

My cleric is more included in raids and this is a multiplayer game after all. However my druid leveled in half the time as my cleric and has 3 times as many AA even with half the time played. How to explain to people, who dont play both, what the benefits and weaknesses of each class are. All I can say is dont envy the other class until you have had to put up with the limitations they do. And that goes for both clerics and druids.

There are rarely extra clerics around in tactics and crypt of decay, where I've been hunting most of the time lately. I'm just lucky to have a couple cleric friends that play as much as I do, or else I'd be eating a rezless death or two per day on average.

From the worst solo class in the game, with nearly 0 utility and 0 class specific offensive aa all I can say to your plight is
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Try playing a pure melee full time and tell me then how bad you think you have it.

Hm, wasn't this thread about enchanters canceling their accounts? What happened to that?

How many REALLY did it? Not trying to get on anyone, I am actually curious as to how many enchanters hit the cancel button with the intention of never returning to the game (because if you come back and they didn't fix what you said you wanted fixed, then it's all a big waste). I'm sure some did, and are serious about the whole thing. I would like to see numbers though.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Hm, wasn't this thread about enchanters canceling their accounts? What happened to that?[/quote]

I'm sure the same thread on a mage board derailed into topics relevant to mages and the same for all class specific boards.

As I said I wouldn't, I did not cancel my accounts. I guess I will get an idea of how many did when I go LFG next with my chanter.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> From the worst solo class in the game, with nearly 0 utility and 0 class specific offensive aa all I can say to your plight is
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [/quote]
LOL! I did like that particular line =)

However, on my server a 65 Rogue just about has his pick of xp groups in Tier 2/3 planes. Not to mention one of the most coveted roles on many raids. A reasonable tradeoff?

Primero Aventurero
63 Druid

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
From the worst solo class in the game, with nearly 0 utility and 0 class specific offensive aa all I can say to your plight is
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[/quote]

This is an irrational response in the extreme. That's like a Cleric posting on the Rogue boards "From the perspective of the lowest DPS class in the game, you guys should be HAPPY with your DPS, it's 10x mine".

If a class is out-DPSing you, you have a beef. If they are out-soloing you, you picked a Rogue. Sarcastic comments notwithstanding, a person who picked a solo class should be able to solo well. Just like a person who picked a DPS class should do substantial DPS.

Im sorry, is your soloing BoT boss mobs broken for you now?

Just trying to put the enchanter whining in context. Your little problems are small compared to pure melee.

BTW What server are you playing on that a rogue has a pick of the groups he wants to join cause the way im looking at it now rogue is a class that brings nothing to a group besides DPS and were not even the best at that anymore.

Trying to find a group for my rogue is like trying to find a group for my druid back before Velious, sitting LFG at zone for long periods of time.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Im sorry, is your soloing BoT boss mobs broken for you now?[/quote]

I've never solo'd a BoT boss mob. I have heard rumors about it happening a while back. I have also heard about duo rogues ping ponging any mob in the game, duo clerics wreaking havoc on entire zones, bards kiting the entirety of HoH, a monk soloing Naggy or Vox, etc.. Yet, I never knw anyone who actually did/do those things and am quite comfortable that it was/is something not every member of those classes could have or could have done/do.

I can't help but to suggest you work on your reading comprehension skills though because there was a great deal moe discussed than the charm nerf and I haven't seen a single chanter complain here that "we" cannot solo BoT boss mobs.

Thanks for the trolling anyhow.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> BTW What server are you playing on that a rogue has a pick of the groups he wants to join cause the way im looking at it now rogue is a class that brings nothing to a group besides DPS and were not even the best at that anymore.[/quote]Nothing besides DPS? *blink* That's the #1 desirable trait for a group in Tier 2/3 zones. Nearly all the pick-up groups I see try to form themselves in the following mold:
1) Cleric
2) Slower
3) Tank
4) DPS
5) DPS
6) DPS

I'm pretty gimp and usually spend most of my time in PoS/V, so it may be different in the higher planes, but top DPS classes (BST, Rogue & Mage) rarely have a problem getting in a group as far as I can tell.

8pm
"62 Druid LFG"
"63 Rogue LFG"
"64 Necro LFG"

8:05pm
"62 Druid LFG"
"64 Necro LFG"

8:15pm
"62 Druid LFG"
"58 Cleric LFG"
"64 Necro LFG"

8:30pm
"62 Druid LFG"
"64 Necro -- saying screw you all I'm gonna go farm pp ;P"

8:45pm
"62 Druid LFG"
"62 BST LFG"

9pm
"62 Druid LFG"

etc....

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Magelo Profile (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=562742)

Trolling? Look at my post count lady, and even before that I have my druid EZ boad account as well that I no longer use.

Chanter BoT boss mob killing was a daily occurrance on my server. While is nice that chanters have moved away from the buff whores they were in Velius you guys dont have it all that bad now compared to others.

What I see when Im LFG.
about 2-3 65 Rogues LFG
About 1-2 below 65 Rogues LFG
Maybe a ranger LFG
Maybe a cleric or 2 depending on how crowded the zone is, cause clerics dont really stack all that well.

DPS alternatives to rogues
Rangers- nearly same DPS but with buffing and other utilities spells + pulling with harmony.
Mages- Pets and focus items + nuking is pretty close to rogue dps.
Wizards-Burst DPS is a term of the past, there is no burst DPS anymore, with new AA, focus items and the many forms of mana regen spells out there the norm is Sustained DPS for nuking classes.
Monks- close to same dps and can fd pull( with harmony type spells even they are hurting)
Beastlords- very underestimated class with dps in form of melee/pet plus some utility with small heals, sow, mana regen spells, lower level shammy buffs and slows.

Rest are all slot classes, clerics/druids(drus for either nuking/healing/snaring), Shammy/Chanter for slow CC/Beastlords will do as well, SK/Paly and warr for tanking (hybrids > pure war due to agro spells). Bards for slows/CC/pulling.

And there is the rogue that brings- DPS as long as the back is to him along with no other utility.

I love playing my rogue, but Im not blind to the fact that we along with monks and warriors have fallen behind the mana casting classes. Hopefully SoE will get around to helping our plight sometime in the near future.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> I love playing my rogue, but Im not blind to the fact that we along with monks and warriors have fallen behind the mana casting classes. Hopefully SoE will get around to helping our plight sometime in the near future.[/quote]I agree with you. IMO, pure Melee and Priest classes have once again fallen behind with PoP (although Clerics and Shamans still get groups due to CH/Rez and Slow). Hybrids and Int casters rule the roost at this point.

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Oh boy why don't Cantatus and Tenidina get a room. :)

No really seriously I don't understand how druids can't comprehend how bad this is... I thought about that statement of snare and charming. It makes all the difference in the world. Not to mention they are as tough as paper. Throw some water on them and they practically melt. I tried chanter and the lower lvls killed me... got to 24 before I burnt out... Chanters are ok in my book

Lol ok...

1. Druids can replace clerics in a exp group or a low-end raid situation.

2. Druids CANNOT replace clerics on a high end raid like agnarr,bertoxx,RZ etc....why? Because druids cannot do the melee buffs clerics can. Clerics have much better heals, clerics can REZ. clerics are what some people call "mission essential" druids are not. raids on these mobs CANNOT HAPPEN unless there is a certain number of CLERICS present.

3. Why would a druid want to replace a cleric anyways? good god I dont wanna play healer all the time or I would have been a cleric.

Sancta Nox
Level 64 Hierophant
Crimson Eternity