View Full Forums : The "progression": Myth or Reality


Panamah
02-20-2003, 09:29 PM
The flames were dying down so I bought one of those logs that should burn for a few hours. This one has those pretty colored flames too.

I found this over on Safehouse. I've always pretty much disbelieved that whole progression thing. You know, where you have to raid all the zones in Expansion X before you can move into Expansion Y. Why? Well, it wasn't true in Velious. We raided in Velious without really spending time in VP, even though people still thought VP was part of the progression. Then Luclin came out and we started to do Luclin without doing Sleeper's Tomb. Got fairly well equipped, we didn't do NToV either.

Now PoP is out and the linear thinking folks are once again expounding how you have to do VT before you can do PoP. In fact, not only that but saying that you don't deserve to advance in PoP until you do the same progression they did.

But then, here's this thread over here in Safehouse and three different people from three different guilds are doing RZ and either succeeding or coming very close and they haven't bought into the logic of doing VT before PoP. They went right at it and they're succeeding.

pub146.ezboard.com/fthesa...7469.topic (http://pub146.ezboard.com/fthesafehouseloungegeneraldiscussion.showMessage?t opicID=27469.topic)

VT is it's own reward. If you've got the incredible drive and patience to gear up a guild in the face of the ruthless competition and the most mind-numbingly boring camps in the game then you walk away with some nice prizes. In fact, lots and lots of nice prizes. But they aren't some sort of prerequistite like taking English 101 is a prereq for Poetry, or something.

Edit: Forgot to close with a neener. Neener.

BricSummerthorne
02-20-2003, 09:54 PM
Was there *ever* really a progression? I mean, look at it:

In Original EQ, the top guilds raided the toughest dungeons.

Then in Kunark, the top guilds raided the toughest dungeons.

Then in Velious, the top guilds raided the toughest dungeons.

Then in SoL, the top guilds raided the toughest dungeons.

Sure, in retrospect is seems like there was a linear plan, but mabye uberguilds were just doing what uberguilds do. Raid the toughest dungeons.

You have to ask yourself, if FoH were transferred naked to a new server, would they start at Kael? I am having a hard time imagining Furor rolling on a Vindi BP.

Iisbliss
02-20-2003, 09:56 PM
haha = )

like your spirit !!!!

Well, I know people are skipping VT and older zones to do POP...

the thing is...if you look at ideal gear, and include FT and focus effects in your total dream package, for almost any class

Here is some of the things to think about

1. Some of the best Focus effects are still in VT.
2. EP BPs and Legs are rare as @#%$, some of the best BP and legs are still for most classes in VT or on Seru or even on burrower and in Ssra
3. The gods are hard...very hard....like in any expansion, you need the guild to have the gear to do the mobs. Sure a guild with good geared people from prior expansions can carry some people that dont have VT or NTOV loots, but that is exactly what you are doing, carrying lesser geared people.
4. There is alot of gear in POP that can upgrade your guild, of course the arms, legs, bracers, hats, and gloves from EP are good, even if i think personally the Druid Ep stuff sucks, but the way most guilds work the system, the better geared longer playing people are going to get the good gear first.

You can easily see this at our hunts, especially with resist gear....the dead are mostly undergeared when its AE time.

okay Flame on


and here it is: Neener Neener ; )

Miss Foxfyre
02-20-2003, 10:53 PM
http://www.duraflame.com/common/images/products/easytime.jpg

Oooh pretty!

MadroneDorf
02-20-2003, 11:04 PM
The start of a previous exspanstion, is usually not right after the end of a previous.
Good half of SoL is easiest then AoW... IV, RC, DS, Greig, THO, The Burrower etc...
AoW level in SoL doesnt really come till your till about Ssra, next logical step being Emp, (Realizing this is part of Ssra, but in terms of Difficulty/time Invested its a "step" and then comes VT...

PoP is the same way, once you learn the encounters, the First 2.5 Teirs are really about on SSRA level, or slightly harder. It isnt until MM, Bertox, Agnarr (Which is probably really on about same level as end SoL, once the encounters are leanred. that you really begin to have encounters that are would be the next step.... Rallos Zek.. Ele planes.. and beyond...

One great flaw in Luclin, and Velious, (slightly lessened with the Mod Rod Nerf) is really the only person you have to equip up is an warrior or two, and honestly you could beat any encounter with a few mages (pre mod rod nerf) or Necros, With people in only SS (Or hell.. fear) + epic quality weapons and a solid equipped Warrior...

This of course really doesnt work in most situations, as most guilds/people would not put up with farming for solely one or two people...

In PoP the situation is different, mobs have larger AE's, hit multible targets, and overall having gear spread around more helps, due to a kill it before it kills you mentality. Of course there is still a way around this, some will call it a flaw, I"ll let that be up to the reader. Still getting the Solid MT, you can change gear for more people... and still beat a lot of encounters..... BUt really most of its skill, you can "Skip" endgame SoL, and do farming elsewhere, but it just helps...

Also its not nesicary that you need "VT" gear, or gear from X zone, to get to Y zone, you can gear up in "Z" gear, thats not as good, or not as common, but it still works in a pinch.. THers nothing magic about being in a few 125hp slots + resist... as opposed to a bunch of 75 or 50 everywhere /shrug.... Equipment mostly makes it so you can afford more mistakes...

Iisbliss
02-20-2003, 11:51 PM
I have to disagree...

I do agree skill makes up for some of it...
and AAs help alot...

But I have seen the lower geared people in my guild, and they have smaller mana pools, less hp, less resists.

a cleric with under 4k mana and no FT is pretty useless

and yes we gear them as fast as we can = )
and we gear them in POP, but we wouldnt be there gearing them if over half our guild wasnt well geared from previous expansions.

Milesgond
02-21-2003, 03:45 AM
here's a hypothetical to think about... which would you rather have on a raid? three VT equipped druids without SotW or three HoT equipped druids who can MGB SotW? personally I think the latter would be a lot more useful in many situations.. of course most druids who have VT gear probably have MGB and SotW anyway, but still it kinda puts into perspective how important equipment is compared to levels / AAs

Oldoaktree
02-21-2003, 07:41 AM
It isn't really an either/or. You will either have 3 VT equipped druids that can MGB SOTW, or 3 NTOV equipped druids that can MGB SOTW.

Truthfully, the VT guild is far more likely to have a bigger percentage of their druids able to MGB SOTW since VT guilds also tend to be the highest AA guilds. Of course, that NTOV guild is more likely to have more druids so it all evens out some ; ).

I really don't know the answer to this. VT loot is its own reward. But as yet it is unproven, at least to me, that progressing to Tier 4 without VT gear is not possible. It is also not proven to me that it is very effective.

I suspect it is possible, that over time some guilds will do it (after an equivalent amount of time spent farming PoP perhaps), but that it will not be viable for most guilds that are not VT equipped.

Bear in mind I say this as a non-VT guild. On our server, we had one VT guild before pop, and 3 more now. All those 3 are working on VT in the belief that it is the only way they will be able to beat Rallos (though they too will keep trying).

Calebe
02-21-2003, 09:50 AM
Iisblis I really find this hard to believe:

a cleric with under 4k mana and no FT is pretty useless

Lets see, PoP raids are more about killing the mob sooner rather than later. The fights are hard, but fast.

So a 3600 mana cleric (to use your under 4000 example) can cast 9 complete heals. Now put 4 clerics all at 3600 mana in a chain and you have 36 complete heals before OOM.

Useless?

So now take a 5000 mana cleric sure they can cast 12 complete heals and have a bit left over. 9 compaired to 12.

Since when did 9 full complete heals become useless as you claim, also a 3600 mana clerc would be damn useful on ramage healing alone.

Sometimes people statements amaze me.

Calebe

Panamah
02-21-2003, 09:53 AM
Well, in that safehouse thread there's 2 people claiming their non-VT guilds have beaten Rallos and one guild who got him to 5% on their second try. They all say they're not using any cheap tricks or inordinately large raids.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>My guild has never attempted emperor due to distaste for timesinks. We've killed everything outside of Emp Sra / VT at least once including Lord Seru (with zero bane weapons so no comments about that lame @#%$ timesink). Tuesday we got our second shot at Rallos Zek the Warlord and got him under 5% WITHOUT gimping/exploiting Z-axis or any other lame @#%$ "questionable" tactic you can think of. Is VT gear important? I'd say only if you enjoy being totally bored off your @#%$ and aren't in a guild capable of thinking on their feet so to speak. Don't get me wrong, there's still some damn nice equipment there but it's definately not a requirement for progression in PoP.[/quote]

and...

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>My guild has no vex thal gear, we've never made an attempt on the emperor, and have basically been living in PoP since it came out. We've now killed Rallos twice, both times with about 55 people and not using any gimp exploits. A lot will however depend on your server and how much competition you have; it may be worthwhile to go for emp/vt rather than struggle with the top guilds on your server for the higher pop stuff.[/quote]

MadroneDorf
02-21-2003, 10:59 AM
Non Emp SSRA usually between 85-110 HP/MP + decent resists, most Pre-Ele PoP Stuff is 75-120 HP/MP + resists....

Most VT stuff is 100-125 HP/MP + resists... (With a few 85's)

One more PoP/SSRA thing will balance out a VT thing, and really you dont need it, its more about farming someplace, and VT is a very good place to farm, even with competition...

Still can get 12 or so loots when its been partially cleared... While a night Spend in PoP will yield 2-6 at best usually...

Just a question of where you want to spend your time.....

I find most PoP Boss's after the 2cd or third time just as boring as VT Crawl... /shrug

Mossglade
02-21-2003, 12:52 PM
Oldoaktree, by tier 4 do you mean in PoP? I hope you didn't mean any tier 4 boss mobs in general because they can easily be done with less than VT gear. :p

Oldoaktree
02-21-2003, 01:41 PM
I never adopted the old Tier system...Tiers only mean pop tiers to me.

I saw more digital ink spilled over who was in what category than I cared to, and 90% of it was about pride.

The official tiering I also found somewhat suspect. A guild's composition (class, level, etc) could make some fights easier, some harder for them in a way that was not well captured by a straight list of "this is a harder mob to kill.."

ie, if your guild was rich in chanters it might make you more effective on certain kills that rely more on them.

It was interesting and all, but yes, I meant PoP tiers ; ).

Iisbliss
02-21-2003, 11:05 PM
Rallos Zek isnt that hard...

@#%$ gets harder !!

cya in there !! : )

but basically gear has always been the rule of progression...you need the gear to get to the next level, and of course now you need the AA's and the gear.

Aaeamdar
02-22-2003, 03:24 AM
My guild is not skipping content because content is what we play the game for afterall.

Panamah
02-22-2003, 12:52 PM
Not all EQ content is created equal IMHO. I'm one of those people that utterly hates long, boring camps, so personally doing a VT key would make me miserable.

If given a choice between lima beans and ice cream, I'd probably go for the ice cream even if the lima beans were free, because I hate lima beans. Blech!

MadroneDorf
02-22-2003, 03:32 PM
Long Boring Shard camp...

Doing TT maze or Carpin Cycle for the 5th time.....

Still a time sink... least i didnt have to rely on others for shard camps (well most of em)..

EHehe

Panamah
02-23-2003, 01:00 PM
Madrone, after Monday getting hedge groups together should be easier. Hopefully people will put the LFG tool to good use. I tried to get people to use the hedge:hog channel to match up for hedge raids, but rarely had more than a few logged into it at any given time. :mad:

If people do things smart, they can do guild hedge raids and pickup others looking to do the same to fill in holes. Then you don't have to keep repeating it over and over.

Glad to see you guys edging closer to tier-4. Seems like you're making really good progress.

Ligge
02-24-2003, 07:30 AM
<blockquote style="padding-left:0.5em; margin-left:0; margin-right:0; margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0; border-left:solid 2">My guild is not skipping content because content is what we play the game for afterall. </blockquote>

I play the game for content too, however I dont play it to sit on my @#%$ for 100s of hours to farm shards or bane type materials. Thats not content, thats boring unenjoyable timesinks.

EQ has not been linear - as much as SOE/VI would like you to think it has been - other than the level 1-65 progression. You are and always have been free to choose your own path. In fact when Velious FIRST came out thats how it was described. You had to pick sides! It wasnt until some time later that they back tracked and people started this SoV progression of side with one, get geared, move on to the other discussion.

Expecting all people (remember even Absor says casual players should have access to more content now) to due some of the horrendous time sinks is just not even reasonable.