View Full Forums : Balancing the New Healing Paradigm


Iilane SalAlur
03-30-2004, 07:21 AM
Prior to GoD, TDG discussions about priest balancing had mainly centered around the abilities (spells, AA) that each class brings to the group. Very little consideration was made on how well priest classes can coordinate with each other in a group environment.

As you all know, GoD progression require 2 healer groups the deeper you get. This means that each group will comprise of 2 priest classes, either 2 clerics, a cleric and a druid or a cleric and a shaman. I believe there needs to be an examination by the community as to how well priest classes stack together in a group environment and to relook at priest class balancing from the 2 priest group perspective.

Lets take a look at what priests bring to the group when stacked.

Cleric-Cleric
- Peak of 1300 heal per second
- hp buff give 1405 hp, 72 ac
- 2 x Divine Arbitration
- 2 x Celestial Regeneration
- 2 x Exquisite Benediction
- Melee damage mitigation (Vie line)
- 34 Reverse DS + 6 Healing Shield?
- 2 Rezzers
- Divine Intervention

Cleric-Druid
- Peak of 1000 heal per second
- hp buffs give 1528 hp, 32 ac, 8 mana regen
- Divine Arbitration
- Celestial Regeneration
- Exquisite Benediction
- Spirit of the Wood
- Melee damage mitigation (Vie line)
- 25 hp regen
- 40 DS + 34 Reverse DS + 6 Healing Shield
- 1 Rezzer
- Divine Intervention
- Druid dps when peak healing not required
- Exodus, Succor
- SoW, SoE, Invisibility

Cleric-Shaman
- Peak of 900 heal per second
- hp buffs give 1994 hp, 72 ac, 75 str, 75 dex
- Divine Arbitration
- Celestial Regeneration
- Melee damage mitigation (Vie line)
- 25 hp regen
- 34 Reverse DS + 6 Healing Shield
- 1 Rezzer
- Divine Intervention
- Slow (Can be mitigated)
- Haste
- Pet dps
- Shaman DoTs when peak healing not required
- Bhi'li, stat buffs

Is this balanced? What would you change if you feel it isn't balanced and why?

Palarran
03-30-2004, 08:15 AM
For one thing, a well timed divine arbitration + word of replenishment can add quite a bit to the cleric-cleric burst healing. There's no comparable cleric-druid or cleric-shaman combination. (Well, maybe if there was a paladin present, but even then the paladin group heals are much smaller and it could only be done half as often as with a cleric-cleric combination.)

Scirocco
03-30-2004, 08:50 AM
If you're talking balance, you ought to include druid-shaman, druid-druid, and shaman-shaman combinations as well. The imbalance is obvious from the three combinations you describe: all require at least one cleric.

Also keep in mind that it's the increase in GoD mob DPS that is the primary cause of the imbalance. Assuming SOE is not going to adjust the DPS, that means the other combinations need to have some means of raising HPS to match.

Iisbliss
03-30-2004, 09:54 AM
2 times DvA is a hard thing to match, so is two clerics doing DI

druid/shaman and druid/druid and shaman/shaman cant beat this.

Wyte
03-30-2004, 12:59 PM
I'm sure we've all heard that 1 Cleric is supposed to equal 1+1 of Druid/Shaman. I wish I knew if that idea was from Sony or the player base.

If so, then the 2 Cleric requirement would mean equivelant healing could also be:
- 1 Cleric, 1 Shaman, 1 Druid
- 1 Cleric, 2 Shaman
- 1 Cleric, 2 Druids
- 4 Shaman
- 4 Druids
- 2 Shaman, 2 Druids
- 1 Shaman, 3 Druids
- ... blah blah, you get the drift

Seems like an unreasonable requirement/dynamic to me. Whether this was Sony or player born insight it needs to be changed if and when 2 Cleric scenarios arise.

Eridalafar
03-30-2004, 01:06 PM
Or it time to get the capacity to form group up to 10 players....

Na, it will never happen.

Eridalafar

GorouTSO
03-30-2004, 01:37 PM
You are forgetting a few things in cleric-druid combo.

1. AC gained from the buffs is 86, not 32. You are forgetting WoG.

2. Hand of Ro. The best debuff that can be cast on trial named. It can easily be cast while the warrior is in Furious mode.

3. Last but not least, effect SotW has in these trials. Healing part is not very significant, but the DS part is. It gives 55 DS that stacks with 40 DS for over 40 seconds, which is longer than any offensive melee disc except Trueshot. It also gives 48 ac.



Named in the trials hit very fast and unslowable. DS can do amazing damage on them. Druid is the only class that can pump out huge DPS while full time healing. I would pick cleric-druid combo over cleric-cleric combo anytime if the druid has every focus, spell and AA skill.



Gorou Masamune

Danixzzel
03-30-2004, 02:59 PM
If you're talking balance, you ought to include druid-shaman, druid-druid, and shaman-shaman combinations as well. The imbalance is obvious from the three combinations you describe: all require at least one cleric.

I could see the healing in Ikkinz trials handeld by two druids. albeit it would be rough. Why you need a cleric is because dying in Ikkinz is major pain, since it's a difficult zone to get into in the first place. I'd like to try druid druid necro sometime though.

2. Hand of Ro. The best debuff that can be cast on trial named.

Amen. People don't realize how much hand of ro hurts mob DPS output.

MadroneDorf
03-30-2004, 04:23 PM
If theres a wizard/Mage I prefer Druid/Cleric, I find it suffecient healing and has other benefits..

That said i still dont think healing in GOD Is balanced

Tiane
03-30-2004, 07:55 PM
Amen. People don't realize how much hand of ro hurts mob DPS output.

Logs and parses, please.

As for ds's, many classes have them, druids not even the best. You can get them in a potion, and on a myriad of infinite charge items.

MadroneDorf
03-30-2004, 11:46 PM
Potion, and the Vast Majority of Clicky DS's stack with Druid/Mage DS.

I dunno if Ro's has much of an effect on mob DPS, but it definatly has an effect on Wizard and Mage DPS

Tiane
03-31-2004, 01:40 AM
Oh, I realize many stack. The point is that the effect can be gotten without a druid or mage present (or bard, for that matter, who blows dru/mag shields out of the water, i.e. 110-120-ish depending on amps.)

And yes, I only ever notice Ro's as a fire debuffer, which is nice because eci's is a stupid spell... but other classes have resist debuff options as well. Not dissing Ro's.. I use it often. But people who claim it has a large effect on mob dps need to back that up with logs/parses, because on every example I've seen, the effect can be small (if any) on short fights because of the small data set.

Any such list like this is kinda pointless anyway. Any experienced player is fully aware of the limitations and abilities of each class in every situation (or should be) and can attempt to make up for drawbacks in any particular combo. The problem is when the content the classes are encountering is simply overpowering or making irrelevant the basic tools of each priest's approach to the healing paradigm. For shamans, that means dealing with mobs that mitigate or are immune to slow. For druids, well, we havent really had a healing mitigator to make up for our small/slow heals in a long time.

So, it comes down to the content. In much of GoD so far, it seems that the dps output of the mob is huge, and the mob is often unslowable. This means you can:

a) increase healing to compensate mob dps. or
b) make the mob dead faster and hope you dont get dps-spiked.

Both are valid strategies. Option a is more reliable, since it relies less on luck. It's also best suited for the double-cleric combo, and cleric-druid is an often do-able alternative. Option b is also served best by a cleric-druid combo, but the rest of the group must be stacked to provide the extra dps. In neither case is a shaman preferable. A druid is preferable over a shaman in both cases because our burst dps and our burst healing are much higher than a shaman's.

Really, the bottom line is that they need to stop making so many damn mobs unslowable... the balance of the priests (and everyone else) has been hinged on this one spell for far too long to just make nearly an entire expansion immune to it without re-doing the 3 priests from the top down.

Iisbliss
03-31-2004, 02:30 AM
Ros and Cripple both help on Named DPS

elty
03-31-2004, 03:38 AM
2 cleric group seems to be best in GoD

once cleric goes down, you lose if there is not pally or necro
DvA is a very powerful burst healing AA.
Cleric has innate DI
2 cleric can make non warrior tank have a easier life

Cleric + Shaman is also good, as it provides the most HP buff as well as shaman can slow 20% better than enchanter (if you fail to see where is that 20% come from please study math). Also this free up the enchanter to conentrate on mezing. Shaman also provides the best resist debuff. Also, shaman has virtually unlimtied mana. (when is the last time you see a shaman oom?)

Druid? Druid doesnt offer much except snare (which is very useful especially if you have a charmed pet) and evac (occasionally useful in some places, however in may other cleric die = fail). Druid's buff is nice to have but not necessary. Hand of Ro is nice, but it probably can't replace slow. More testing should be done on that. Druid DPS/DPM is lowest among the "DPS" class due to lack of pet and only roguhly about 33% more DPM than cleric on non undead/summon (by comparing mana effiency). Everything from druid is mana dependant, also dont forget if you use the mana to heal, you dont have mana to nuke.

MadroneDorf
03-31-2004, 04:03 AM
2 cleric group seems to be best in GoD

once cleric goes down, you lose if there is not pally or necro
DvA is a very powerful burst healing AA.
Cleric has innate DI
2 cleric can make non warrior tank have a easier life

Cleric + Shaman is also good, as it provides the most HP buff as well as shaman can slow 20% better than enchanter (if you fail to see where is that 20% come from please study math). Also this free up the enchanter to conentrate on mezing. Shaman also provides the best resist debuff. Also, shaman has virtually unlimtied mana. (when is the last time you see a shaman oom?)

Druid? Druid doesnt offer much except snare (which is very useful especially if you have a charmed pet) and evac (occasionally useful in some places, however in may other cleric die = fail). Druid's buff is nice to have but not necessary. Hand of Ro is nice, but it probably can't replace slow. More testing should be done on that. Druid DPS/DPM is lowest among the "DPS" class due to lack of pet and only roguhly about 33% more DPM than cleric on non undead/summon (by comparing mana effiency). Everything from druid is mana dependant, also dont forget if you use the mana to heal, you dont have mana to nuke.

DVA and DI own, point taken there.

#1You cant Charm in Ikkinz

#2 Shamans healing power just isnt powerful enough to function as healer 2 for the vast Majority of case's (for the Ikkinz Trials)

#3 All trials can be done Near the zone in so having a cleric zone in case of wipe isnt that hard.

#4 The yard trash isnt the problem, its the named, they are unslowable.

#5 Shamans go oom just as quick as other class's for whats important in these trials (the named) they have good ACTIVE regen, however they cant do other things while using their mana regen, the fights are short enough that you can rarely afford to be doing something else.

#6 Ro's lands on unslowable mobs, slow does not!

#7 Innate DI doesnt help heal, its an escape for trials, if it goes off you dont instanly heal you get a instan DA and a heal.

#8 Two clerics will have a very very hard time keeping anyone but a defensive warrior up against ikkinz named

#9 Ro's and Malosinia are about the same resist modifier to fire, which has the highest burst DPS for nuking class's (except for necro)

#10 You can have buff bots or get buffs before

#11 Mana effenceincy isnt too important for the names, its Resist rate and DPS

AmonraSet
03-31-2004, 07:29 AM
I still prefer druid + cleric to 2 clerics. The non named are easy to kill either way, I don't know of anyone that failed a trial due to being unable to get past them.

On the named the druid DS + SotW provide a very significant amount of DPS. As mentioned above Ro is a pretty decent debuff and there should be plenty of time to cast it while the tank is furious. There may also be time to throw a dot on the mob before healing starts. Certainly its more useful than slow because the mobs are slow immune!

WotW can easily be used twice on the tank (once before the fight starts with time to refresh then again during the fight) which is more DPS. I'm disappointed Ive yet to see a druid using WotW on Booboo for even more dps during the fight, but I live in hope. :devil-lau

Iegluan
03-31-2004, 02:59 PM
Hand of Ro drops the mobs ATK rating by 100 which in turn does drop the DPS said mob can do it might not be a ton but every little bit helps. No need for parces unless you don't understand that the less atk you have the less dps you have.

tawnos
03-31-2004, 04:02 PM
No need for parces unless you don't understand that the less atk you have the less dps you have.
Of course you need parses to determine if the effect is large enough to be relevant to a discussion of class balancing. If the 'less dps' is 0.01% then the effect in question isn't a significant factor for determining the balance of other abilities. If on the other hand its something like 20% then it becomes a legitimate reason to use a druid healer.

shaman can slow 20% better than enchanter (if you fail to see where is that 20% come from please study math).
As others have said the named mobs in the ikkinz trials are unslowable and the rest of the trial is trivial for any reasonable class combination. Also, this is only true for fully slowable mobs. The dps difference is much lower for mobs which mitigate slow and is negligible for mobs like the tipt boss which are only slightly slowable.

Kineada
03-31-2004, 04:15 PM
Parses will only reveal information on one particular mob versus one particular warrior. The damage distribution is a function of ATK versus mitigation AC. If ATK is much lower than AC, then a mob will tend to hit for minimum more often.

This is what Ro's Debuffs do. GoD and PoP mobs tend to have very high max damage but relatively low ATK. These mobs are more affected by ATK debuffs than say Velious mobs with insanely high ATK ratings. In the Velious case, ATK debuffs are not worthwhile.

AnderTenderfoot
03-31-2004, 05:17 PM
But people who claim it has a large effect on mob dps need to back that up with logs/parses

Go look up the gorenaire solo posts. They show logs and you can see a significant difference in her damage output once Hand of Ro lands. You also have to take into consideration that it lowers mob AC which allows hits to land more/harder and lowers resists which allows nukes to land better. Remember, the key is the faster the mob is dead, the less DPS it has because dead mobs don't hit back.

Sunwukong Stormrider
03-31-2004, 07:26 PM
Solution:
Give all priests Complete heal, fix KR/TR and Kragg/Tnarg/Daluda.
give clerics a happy new pet hammer.
there's your stinking balance.

Danixzzel
03-31-2004, 07:49 PM
I'll try to convince some of my guild warriors to run parces on Ikkinz mobs, but really you need hours of data before it can be considered reliable. Still though, it should show a difference,and I certainly notice the difference when I'm healing.

Tiane
03-31-2004, 08:48 PM
but really you need hours of data before it can be considered reliable

The very fact that you need hours of data to show a difference is precisely my point in saying that the difference ranges between small and undetectable from statistical noise on any one fight.

Danixzzel
04-01-2004, 03:02 AM
Oh, I don't think you'd need hours of data to show a difference, jsut to prove beyond a shawdow of a doubt that it's not just the goffy RNG making the mob hit for less. It's not as easy to tell as slow, since you can just measure the time between rounds, which is always consistent. Shrug, I find it makes my job easier when I use it. Like I said, I'll try to get som epeopel to do some parces.

AmonraSet
04-01-2004, 03:46 AM
The very fact that you need hours of data to show a difference is precisely my point in saying that the difference ranges between small and undetectable from statistical noise on any one fight.

Not really. Unfortunately the random factors in mob damage are very large. If you run two short parses with exactly the same conditions you are quite likely to notice a significant difference in DPS, even though actual DPS has remained the same.

Similarly, even something like a 10% reduction in DPS will probably not show up in a short set of parses. Yet I still think that a 10% reduction in DPS would be worthwhile.

Kulothar
04-01-2004, 08:08 AM
I know from personal experience that dropping HoR, IoR and RI on a mob that normally hits for 300+ will make it hit at least 100 pts lower on average, they miss more often and they max less. I don't know about the 1000+ ones but it should be proportional.

In several zones, LDoN, HoT, PoV etc I will offtank a debuffed mob so the group can take one down which would be impossible for me to do otherwise. Sure they still hit for their max, just not as often and their average hit is reduced signifcantly.

And I am not talking green goblins.. I am talking dark blue giants which unbuffed would tear me apart. Last night in a BoT group when the ranger got adds, I would take the mob off the ranger so he could help the MT finish off the primary mob. I was even able to get debuffs and dots off on both mobs, Keep myself healed and not go below half health before they finished the other mob.

Tell me HoR doent make a difference but I won't believe you. Before putting on HoR, IoR and RI, they were hitting for 365, after they hit for 85 average and 365 only about one out of 4 blows. I don't need a long parce to see that.

If you have not seen the effects of HoR then you have never had mobs agro on you enough to see what damage they do.

Greystone
04-01-2004, 10:19 AM
1. A comment was made about Ro's vs. Gore. Gores AC/ATK is a joke compared to the things in GoD. So sure you can parse and see noticeable differences. While Ro's helps, even if you stack all 3 Ro's the impact is slight on trash mobs, and on named we're talking 10-20 point difference. Now I dont have extensive parsing to give you all back up, just hours of GoD farming and raiding. By no means am I sayign dont use these, cause it helps MAges and Wizards muke ability, if they are in your group. (on a side note, E'ci can usually stack on these mobs as well)

2. Druid/Druid, can work, I have down all sewer trials including Tipt/Vxed with 2 druids, we had a pally in group also for the occasional splash heal, but it is possible. Granted the druids have to have the mana/focus/aa to help

Kulothar
04-01-2004, 03:36 PM
I think part of the problem with factoring HoR into the healing equasion is that it isn't consistant. I know Droping HoR/IoR on a Kael named does little but make them mad and on a LDoN or PoP mob it seams to have serious effects on some. After soloing mobs in different expansions using the debuffs, I went to Kael and they worked ok on the green/Lt blue mobs to a point but the Dark blue Kael mobs didn't seem to be as affected by them. On the other hand the BoT, PoV and HoH mobs it seemed to affect more. But even if it only lowers the average hit 10 - 20 HP, that is significant over an entire evening. I know some mobs it cuts their hits by 100 - 200 pts but I am sure those are not normal in all expansions.

Kineada
04-01-2004, 04:17 PM
Druid/Druid, can work, I have down all sewer trials including Tipt/Vxed with 2 druids, we had a pally in group also for the occasional splash heal, but it is possible. Granted the druids have to have the mana/focus/aa to help

No one is saying that druid healing is insufficient for the early trials. The problem is in Kod'Taz and beyond. No cleric, no group.

As far as the druid debuff question, parses at The Steel Warrior on Xegony show that ATK debuffs do indeed shift her average damage down. The most significant item is her greatly reduced ability to one round a warrior once debuffed.

Remember that average damage is a function not only of ATK but of the target's AC (provided levels are the same). Druid ATK debuffs are most useful in PoP+ expansions. Velious ubers have way too much ATK for debuffs to matter much (i.e. reducing ATK by 100 doesn't mean much if a 3500 ATK AoW is pounding on your 2300AC warrior). But that same warrior will do much better against a 2500 ATK GoD mob.

P.S.
I'm making mob ATK values up since those numbers aren't published. But values can be infered from PvP performance. Baseline a 1400AC warrior. Have an 1800 ATK ranger parse his damage. Have the ranger drop his ATK buffs and debuff him to 1200 ATK and parse the damage. The ranger will do less damage (of course he would ... less ATK). Now have the warrior put on his AC gear and have the ranger back up to 1800 ATK. If the warrior has 2000AC, the ranger will see the same damage output as when he was fighting a 1400AC warrior with 1200 ATK.

Tetrian Corbec
04-04-2004, 04:27 AM
Did some parses long time ago - believe the effect on the ro's line of debuffs was around 15-20% reduced damage from my own tests on a 50-60 mobs(sniffles or whatever his name was, the meanie bunnie in POM, a couple of mobs in east commons and in sebilis)

We did some tests on mobs in vex thal, also, im afraid i lost access to the guild forum due to my retirement, but the results in there was pretty positive also(also in the line of 10-20%).

Either way it was enough to warrant me using it on pretty much any mob i took down solo.

Im pretty sure theres some detailed info on the grove, or atleast there where once - its been a topic for discussion in here before atleast.


-Tetrian

Cedor
04-04-2004, 10:06 AM
I did a parse of Hand of Ro (posted to your competitor, heh) on Luclin mobs in Umbral Plains. Reduced incoming damage to a paladin tank by 9%.

Hobbo
04-04-2004, 10:23 AM
The best parse of the effect of hand of ro i've seen sofar was from a warrior doing AC parses that threw in one test with HoR: http://pub14.ezboard.com/fthesteelwarriorthearena.showMessage?topicID=3094. topic

If you're too lazy to click the link and read it yourself the summary is basically:
Test mob was a castellan of air in PoA

Test 1 1985 ac
average hit 259.28
percentage of hits for min damage 32.75
percentage of hits for max damage 3.14
number of hits 574
accuracy 59.11

Test 9 1985 ac (controll test)
average hit 263.76
percentage of hits for min damage 31.69
percentage of hits for max damage 2.92
number of hits 650
accuracy 57.27

Test 10 1985 ac With druid's Hand of ro (100 atk debuff)on the mob for the entire test.
average hit 221.31
percentage of hits for min damage 34.24
percentage of hits for max damage 0.61
number of hits 660
accuracy 56.85

Now everyone will say that mob cant be compared to ikkinz named or the test was too short etc but the tests were consistant enough and on a somewhat comparable mob that it imo still gives a relevant measurement what effect atk debuffs can have. If you compare it to what benefit he got from different AC values I'd say the difference with HoR was incredible. Add in ro's illumination for another 80atk debuff and I'm convinced that has a very real benefit, particularly note how the % max hits dropped which is what kills the tank.

Greystone
04-04-2004, 02:20 PM
agree on trash mobs sure, but not in GoD...except maybe NAtimbi mobs, they have INSANE ATK's, the Kyv have SICK dps, they are like PoTime TZ little cousins. Pre-Time sure Ro's makes a difference, GoD almost negates the effects ro's has.

On raids we stack 3 Ro's on the mobs, and the only difference we have compared to when we dont land Ro's is wizards nukes don't land for as much.

Palarran
04-04-2004, 02:23 PM
Another thing to note is that mobs vary widely as far as how effective mitigation is in general. It'd dependent on the ratio of DB to DI, which determine the range of possible hits.

For example, a mob with a DB of 500 and a DI of 20 will only hit for 520, 540, 560, ..., 880, 900. So the best you could hope to do is mitigate a 900 hit down to 520 (barring special abilities and modifiers and such).

On the other hand, take the old Innoruuk who had a DB of 1 and DI of 20. His hits would be 21, 41, ..., 381, 401. A 401 hit could be mitigated down to 21. (This is an extreme example, of course.)

Hobbo
04-04-2004, 03:19 PM
I disagree that the ikkinz bosses have insane attack, if they did they would be doing 2000dps or something, considering that they quad 2200(?) something like that and unslowable. I havent seen any parse of their exact hit distribution but I would be willing to bet they hit for minimum far far more than max. And as above poster pointed out the higher di the more difference mitigation makes ofcourse. But again if we're talking ikkinz bosses like pixxt annihilator or DD and such I believe their min hit is somewhere in the 5-600 range and max over 2k which makes a pretty high di.

Also re the kyv archers I saw someone had parsed them on steelwarrior, its not their attack that is insanely high as much as their accuracy which is higher than the standard.