View Full Forums : Druid spells .. not being cast by druids


cosmoxx
04-06-2004, 09:43 AM
Letter to Sony. (except the stuff in italics)

Well the affront to druids has finally convinced me there is little point to play the class anymore. I'll probably give it another week or so to see how I feel but I believe my EQ time is over.

Thank you sony for doing the following..
- Making SoW, SoE, and any other running spell useless due to aa
- Giving other classes the classes the ability to cast sow with an item
- Giving other classes the ability to stop rain
- For giving clerics the ability to cast Reagin using an aa.
- Making druid porting obsolete.. no good for raids, no good for travel.
- Making druid healing inadequate for GoD
- Providing worthless druid oriented loot. "WE CAN'T USE THE DOT EFFECTS BECAUSE YOU ORIENTED THE GAME FOR RAIDS OR GROUPS! "
- For Providing NO PoTime Druid only weapon.
- For ****ing up Harmony so that it can't even lower the aggro of mobs in BoT anymore let alone GoD. AND I'm NOT talking about the reduced effect time.
- For Giving druids the worst mana regen of any casting class.
- For making Shamans better healers then druids, they're heal over time spells are actually better then NI in most cases.
- For Nerfing the secondary forte.. this should have been a druid only ability and should have gone all the way to 250, as ALL THE REST OF THE AA YOU GAVE US BLOW compared to other casters.
- For Having the worlds ****tiest pet, that does a ridiculously low amount of dps and cannot even take advantage of magician augments.
- For giving magicians more ability to charm then druids, when THEY HAVE NEVER HAD THE ABILITY TO CHARM PREVIOUSLY. Where is the fast casting Animal Mez? WHY THE ^%&*^ Does CHARM TAKE 10SEC TO CAST??
- For giving any charmable animal ridiculously high magic resistance and a high chance to break charm so that it only lasts for 30sec.
- For PROVIDING ZERO REBALANCING FOR ALL THE SPELLS YOU'VE TAKEN AWAY AND ALL THE SPELLS YOU'VE MADE OBSOLETE.
- FOR OUTRIGHT LYING TO USERS.. It's an insult to us when you lie, you're telling us you think we're too stupid to know the difference. If Gates of Discord was such a success, then it's only because YOU LIED to the users, because 90% of EQ players can't even get into GoD zones let alone pass the GoD trials. Users who can't play the game BOUGHT THE GAME because YOU LIED TO THEM.

I already know 2 druids that have quit EQ from my guild alone in the last 2 weeks. Good chances that I'll be joining them.

I expected more from Sony. This will affect all you're lines of business, you are selling the name SONY. And I'm going to educate people on the nature of your business practices.

Yaladdar
04-06-2004, 10:13 AM
reagin?

cosmoxx
04-06-2004, 10:19 AM
yeah I corrected that before I sent it.

Regeneration.

Islington
04-06-2004, 11:06 AM
- Making SoW, SoE, and any other running spell useless due to aa

Run5 costs a LOT of points. It's not one of the first things anybody is going to be picking up and it's still slower than a lot of speed enchancing buffs.

- Giving other classes the classes the ability to cast sow with an item

Sword from VP? Super rare and nobody goes there. Seru Boots? Pretty rare and a higher level encounter with annoying time / key sinks. Potions? Have charges and must be replenished. Druids? Naked and they can still cast.

- Giving other classes the ability to stop rain

Ok... I know that other classes can with the gnome toy but I can't believe that this is a pressing concern for Druids.

- For giving clerics the ability to cast Reagin using an aa

I assume you actually meant "regen." Celestial Regeneration is actually a group Heal Over Time spell. Not a Regen. Keep in mind that this skill was of limited use for a good year before SOE FINALLY fixed it and made it good (originally it was a single target HOT with a recast time that makes SOTW look golden in comparison). More accurate would be to compare it to the Druids Spirit of the Wood which costs, significantly, fewer AA points. And for the record, I still support reducing this to a 15 minute timer.

- Making druid porting obsolete.. no good for raids, no good for travel.

I've played a Wizard, a Cleric and a Paladin. There is no possible way you will EVER be able to tell me that ports are worthless even in the age of the Nexus and POK Books. Being able to port directly to a zone is far better than a Cleric having to Gate to POK and then finding a nearby Book. It's even worse for a Melee who can't even gate to POK on their own. Are they less useful? Without a doubt but most will say that the game is better for the ease of travel these days.

- Making druid healing inadequate for GoD

This is one of your few valid complaints and has been touched on in many other threads.

- Providing worthless druid oriented loot. "WE CAN'T USE THE DOT EFFECTS BECAUSE YOU ORIENTED THE GAME FOR RAIDS OR GROUPS! "

Soloing is still viable and there are many times when DOTS are useful.

- For Providing NO PoTime Druid only weapon.

Big deal, you got a Druid only Ranged item instead of a weapon. Not sure I see the difference

- For ****ing up Harmony so that it can't even lower the aggro of mobs in BoT anymore let alone GoD. AND I'm NOT talking about the reduced effect time.

No idea what's happened to Pacify and Harmony recently so I won't comment

- For Giving druids the worst mana regen of any casting class.

4 Mana Regen self buff + POT9 = 12 mana regen. POT9 stacks with everything that I know of and is part of the "preferred" buffing lineup. At any rate, you have Clerics with Zealot for 8 Mana Regen compared to a Druid with 12. Situationally Clerics will have more Mana Regen due to Yaulp but in just as many situations Druids will have more due to a cleric being unable to use Yaulp as as "active" form of mana regeneration. At any rate POT9 is one of the preferred mana regen buffs.

- For making Shamans better healers then druids, they're heal over time spells are actually better then NI in most cases

Ummmm, yeah.... Sure... Whatever...

- For Nerfing the secondary forte.. this should have been a druid only ability and should have gone all the way to 250, as ALL THE REST OF THE AA YOU GAVE US BLOW compared to other casters.

Why the hell should it have gone up to 250? That is completely ridiculous considering regular specilization caps at 200. Druid only ability? Please, that's pure greed speaking right there. And I'm not sure how it was "nerfed" considering that it was stated long before going live that the cap would be 100. With all of that said, I agree that 15 AA for a 3% savings on spells is harsh but mana savings is mana savings. And for the character with all other AA, that's still a 3% mana savings.

- For Having the worlds ****tiest pet, that does a ridiculously low amount of dps and cannot even take advantage of magician augments.

I've seen Druid Pets completely clear Plane of Storms forest area of Frogs using a pet or a Druid using a pet to kill the Giants solo. Keep in mind, I'm not referring to the little bear.

- For giving magicians more ability to charm then druids, when THEY HAVE NEVER HAD THE ABILITY TO CHARM PREVIOUSLY. Where is the fast casting Animal Mez? WHY THE ^%&*^ Does CHARM TAKE 10SEC TO CAST??

How many zones can Mages charm in? 3? The Hole, Bastion of Thunder and Tak? What else am I missing? How many zones can Druids charm in?

Chenier
04-06-2004, 11:22 AM
--Druids losing their importance between of AA's for movement vs. SOE/FOE and books vs. ports

Um, I hated port beggers. And sow beggers. I'm ecstatic that I don't have to do that all the time. And while people can use books, they sure still like porting directly anyway. Btw, have you tried running from PoK to Barindu? No, you port - and so would everyone else like to when they can.

And on the AA run speed thing - it has no lev. Granted, there are times when you don't want lev or some people hate lev. Fine. But other times when you absolutely need it or it makes life a helluva lot nicer (RZTW fight, running to Barindu, kiting in Fire, etc.). Someone has the run AA's and doesn't want me to remem SOE to cast on them....how am I loosing here?

- Giving other classes the ability to stop rain
HAHAHHA! (Wish I could have stopped the rain in Vegas this past weekend)

- For Having the worlds ****tiest pet, that does a ridiculously low amount of dps and cannot even take advantage of magician augments.
Booboo is a toy. He always has been, he always will be. Would have been cool if he got some upgrades during the last pet upgrade spree, but even if he had, what, he'd be a lvl 45 warrior instead of lvl 35? woo?

Me and another druid cast our Booboo's during P1 the other day...he was still hitting for up to 50ish. Not consistantly, but everyone had a good laugh, which lightened the drudgery that is P1 for once. And that, my friend, makes him worth it. =)

-Druid charm: cast time, duration, resistance, cap, limited animal mobs
Yeah, all kinda sucky and certainly not as good as any other pet charming class. Would be cool to see some improvement, but I'm not holding my breath.

Swiftfox
04-06-2004, 11:30 AM
Although some arguments are pretty thin, I can see her point and her frustration. Pretty sure the post was mostly to let off some steam.

Kaige
04-06-2004, 11:50 AM
Thank you sony for doing the following..
- Making SoW, SoE, and any other running spell useless due to aa
- Giving other classes the classes the ability to cast sow with an item

Considering they have to spend upwards to nearly 30(?) AA just to get innate run speed high enough to just below SoW's percentage of movement increase, I can't complain. I actually enjoy it too, I hate having to lose my speed when SoE gets chopped off due to some indoor zones. Besides, I'm sure a large percentage of the druid population is glad to have the possibility of less buff beggers.


- Giving other classes the ability to stop rain

No one buys me opals to do it for them, so let them waste their money on that crap. I like it rainy anyhow :)


- For giving clerics the ability to cast Reagin using an aa.

- Making druid healing inadequate for GoD

They're healers, they're supposed to outclass us in that department. I can solo better than them, and I don't get bugged for rezzes. The more "responsible" things we get, the more burden we get.

I don't think any form of healing is adequate for GoD. Ask the Uqua raiders ;)


- Making druid porting obsolete.. no good for raids, no good for travel.

Twilight Sea for SSra raids, Dawnshroud for Ahkeva/Umbral/VexThal, porting out of LDoN dungeons, access to PoK in order to get people closer to PoP raids after downtime...

The melee are always glad to see us, trust me.


- Providing worthless druid oriented loot. "WE CAN'T USE THE DOT EFFECTS BECAUSE YOU ORIENTED THE GAME FOR RAIDS OR GROUPS! "

Depends on the fight. I know Vengeance of Tunare is probably one of my most favorite dots...ever. Now that I have the Bracelet of Darkness (with 30% mana savings on dots), I'm having a blast using it with Critical Affliction maxed. So...much...damage...omg. hehe


- For Providing NO PoTime Druid only weapon.

I'd kill for that Orb of Clinging Death...sheesh. Free Swarming Death casts? joy! I think that it was great doing it that way, because you can get the primary/secondary slots with whatever other great toys you want. Some druids love their Blade of the Tempest (which is clickable from inventory too), and some of us have really nice primary items we may prefer. I mean...Greatstaff of Power? Such a druid toy...I mean, come on...the freakin' thing is a tree branch with a flame. hell, I have the Dark Mace of Thought for mana tap procs, its great.


- For ****ing up Harmony so that it can't even lower the aggro of mobs in BoT anymore let alone GoD. AND I'm NOT talking about the reduced effect time.

I haven't had many problems with harmony, but I've picked up a few new tricks in the recent months anyway, so don't know what to say. I'm too crafty to let anything get me down.

- For Giving druids the worst mana regen of any casting class.

Every class needs a weakness, but its not so much that we have bad regen, as we have costly casting spells.


- For making Shamans better healers then druids, they're heal over time spells are actually better then NI in most cases.

Tanks in GoD will disagree with you. Instant heals = power. Shaman recently got some healing increase because they were practically getting nothing out of GoD. Lots of mobs were coming out unslowable, so they were just around for buffing purposes and little else.


- For Nerfing the secondary forte.. this should have been a druid only ability and should have gone all the way to 250, as ALL THE REST OF THE AA YOU GAVE US BLOW compared to other casters.

Enchanters don't get Critical Affliction, Clerics don't get CA or the nuke AA we got with GoD. by the way, not even the main specialization only goes up to 200 anyway.


- For Having the worlds ****tiest pet, that does a ridiculously low amount of dps and cannot even take advantage of magician augments.

That's why we charm. (solo giants in Plane of Storms with loroks...weeee!)


- For giving magicians more ability to charm then druids, when THEY HAVE NEVER HAD THE ABILITY TO CHARM PREVIOUSLY. Where is the fast casting Animal Mez? WHY THE ^%&*^ Does CHARM TAKE 10SEC TO CAST??

- For giving any charmable animal ridiculously high magic resistance and a high chance to break charm so that it only lasts for 30sec.

Charm in general is just kinda wacky, but I don't get into debating it too much between the classes, because then enchanters get involved, and then less of get Clarity...

hehe

- For PROVIDING ZERO REBALANCING FOR ALL THE SPELLS YOU'VE TAKEN AWAY AND ALL THE SPELLS YOU'VE MADE OBSOLETE.

They've body-checked a number of classes in different areas, although helping others. We'll never have a clear balanced class system, considering there's so many different styles of play and players, its hard to make something everyone can agree on.

Ever tried to order pizza for ten different people?


- FOR OUTRIGHT LYING TO USERS.. It's an insult to us when you lie, you're telling us you think we're too stupid to know the difference. If Gates of Discord was such a success, then it's only because YOU LIED to the users, because 90% of EQ players can't even get into GoD zones let alone pass the GoD trials. Users who can't play the game BOUGHT THE GAME because YOU LIED TO THEM.

Part of the GoD issue I'll imagine is due to the Beta testing. They reeeeeaaaally didn't have a good filter of quality test subjects, so they were forced to do so with what they had. Considering the majority of people wanted to log on, make a level 65 character, and then go play in BoT all day instead of going to GoD, there wasn't much to do. Once they started closing off non-GoD essential zones, less people started showing up.

The truth of the issue with this game, is that SoE's testing ability with subjects is limited to the actual people who give a damn. The majority of this game's population doesn't believe its worth their time to be involved in any sort of assistance in order to make this game better.


I'm not giving excuses for anyone, lord knows I have my issues with this game as is (grrrrr new engine), but just providing a perspective based on what I've seen.

Arienne
04-06-2004, 12:02 PM
The truth of the issue with this game, is that SoE's testing ability with subjects is limited to the actual people who give a damn. The majority of this game's population doesn't believe its worth their time to be involved in any sort of assistance in order to make this game better.That one kinda hits home. The more and more SOE pushes the players' dependancy on others, the more obvious it becomes that people don't play the game just to help others out.

Anka
04-06-2004, 12:29 PM
The more and more SOE pushes the players' dependancy on others, the more obvious it becomes that people don't play the game just to help others out

Try to imagine staying in hotel and the management asking the guests to help others out.

Megadwen
04-06-2004, 02:06 PM
i didn't realize how important it was for a druids worth to be able to increase movement speed, port, and stopping the rain.

Kineada
04-06-2004, 02:10 PM
Nice rant. I don't agree with any of them. I was going to post individualized responses but decided that if I'm gonna get trolled, I'm gonna keep my responses light.

alyn cross
04-06-2004, 02:41 PM
I'm actually peeved now when someone wants me to come pick them up and forces me to mem a Circle. Waste of my time, when everyone else can run through pok or wayfarer camps to get just about anywhere.
Only time i willingly mem a group port now is when it's by accident and i don't bother rememing the Ring version to port myself somewhere, or if a friend is stuck in potime.

oddjob1244
04-06-2004, 06:02 PM
Sheesh, might want to get your "facts" straight atleast.

cosmoxx
04-06-2004, 06:08 PM
The cleric regeneration aa I was talking about was the GoD ward aa. It's an aa they should have sure, but it's another druid spell.

My point about the spells is that they were our spells and now they are not, and we were given nothing. This has not happened to any other class.

About SoW, there is currently an item available off of fabled creatures that will give cast anywhere instant SoW. Easy to get, instant right clickie.

I'd swear that islington is employed by Sony from his answers. And if you haven't played recently then why are you even comenting??? Have you played GoD? And you all seem way to chirpie to be getting it in the rear from sony.

I like Kaige's answers, but's don't agree with the secondary forte, it's too expensive and would have been a class saver. If they gave it to the other calsses putting a limit at 100 is fine, But it should be 200. The real reason it's not 200, is because it will be in the next expansion, if there is one.

Melee and clerics and get to PoK np, all they have to us is their nice little gate potions, or right clickie neck item. My point about porting is regardless if you LIKE doing it or not, it was ours, it was our class and it was taken away with nothing in return. We did not even receive that ability to port out raids like wizards were.

Druid oriented Loot??? You have all got to be smocking weed to think that a range item with a right click 5sec lvl 63 dot compares in PoTime with a primary 2sec cast of SLOW for shamans. Or for what clerics, warriors, rangers, and other classes get. Soloing with dots are still viable?? where do you solo The umbral plains? Why would you even consider dotting in PoP when nukes are faster and just as mana efficient.

Shamans are better healers then druids. They can heal a group better and for less overall mana using their heal over time spells. only thing we beat shamans as is a larger heal, that is still quite small considering the damage that creatures are dishing out. But yes the larger heal is very important in GoD. But even chain casting NI, the tanks hp will continue to fall lower and lower.

I was under the impression that specialzation went to 250. If the cap is 200 then it should go to 200.

Malrik
04-06-2004, 06:21 PM
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=27236
There are many many items in the game with druidish abilities or druid spells on them. I almost agree here on that one item.

How many items does a druid get that has a spell effect from another class? Im pretty sure there are several items for other classes with druid effects. I do think druid get shafted on clickies. We get what, dot, dot, dot, dot, pet haste, what not but almost every click I have ever seen is a spell a druid can alread cast.

Lordon
04-06-2004, 06:22 PM
Nothing wrong with making your opinion known or letting off steam. Nothing at all. What I really like to see though is all who stick up for our class. I still like it but I am still a newbie. I guess there just comes a time when the game isn't fun anymore. Time to move on.

Islington
04-06-2004, 07:02 PM
The cleric regeneration aa I was talking about was the GoD ward aa. It's an aa they should have sure, but it's another druid spell. You do realize that Druids get this ability as well don't you? Big freaking doo, GoD comes out and both Druids and Clerics receive the same AA.

About SoW, there is currently an item available off of fabled creatures that will give cast anywhere instant SoW. Easy to get, instant right clickie. Check again, there is no Fabled item that casts instant SOW. Fabled J-Boots is on par with Run5.

I'd swear that islington is employed by Sony from his answers. And if you haven't played recently then why are you even comenting??? 2 reasons. First I can't stand ignorance and your post contained some of the most ignorant / uniformed statements I have ever seen. Second, it must have REALLY pissed you off. That's good enough for me.

Melee and clerics and get to PoK np, all they have to us is their nice little gate potions, or right clickie neck item. Instant Gate potions cost about 1k! You call that no problem or in your own letters "np"? Right Clickie gate item is the result of a long quest. And unless you're elementally flagged, you have to put up with a gate necklace that can only be used a limited number of times. As I said, I played a Wizard. There is simply no way you can tell me with a straight face that ports are "useless." That's, patently, false. The ability to port yourself and group members around at will is so much more powerful and convenient than having to rely on POK and Adv Camps.

Druid oriented Loot??? You have all got to be smocking weed to think that a range item with a right click 5sec lvl 63 dot compares in PoTime with a primary 2sec cast of SLOW for shamans. Or for what clerics Cleric Hammer is a stat upgrade only. The proc doesn't give the Cleric any further DPS than that of the Level 63 Hammer. The proc is simply a "toy" unlike your clicky dot which has practical uses.

Shamans are better healers then druids. No Shaman are NOT better healers than druids. Period.

Tiane
04-06-2004, 08:25 PM
Guys, this was just a vent... I really dont think he was looking for feedback. Just accept it as a rant and move on lol...

SudaWilde
04-06-2004, 11:03 PM
There is some validity to the posters comments....

there used to be 2 classes that could port... no they all can essentially
there used to be 2 classes that could regen... now there is 3? or is it more?
there used to be 2 classes that could sow... now they all can
and so on so forth.........

We have all seen the "Druid ability dilution" thread a million times. It amazes me that it still makes people act to poorly in response to it.

MadroneDorf
04-07-2004, 12:19 AM
Time cleric hammer proc is slighly useful in normal ldons, espciall with arb... hah

Rolaque
04-07-2004, 09:10 AM
- Making druid healing inadequate for GoD
- Providing worthless druid oriented loot. "WE CAN'T USE THE DOT EFFECTS BECAUSE YOU ORIENTED THE GAME FOR RAIDS OR GROUPS! "
/sigh Druid healing wasn't degraded for GoD, it was left at a level that is sufficient.

The more our guild progresses into GoD, the more we realize the necessity for druids for certain named mobs in single group expeditions. Namely, unslowable mobs - here the Ro attack debuffs are critical for a chance to win. And then the druid heals in these fights are crucial for keeping the MT up. So every time I see a blanket statement that druids are useless/inadequate/unwanted in GoD I just grin and shake my head.

Complaining about "Burning Magic" focus on the onyx ring of prayer is silly. A 40% focus effect that is routinely useable in groups and soloing is something I will never grumble about. Besides, the stats (+220hp/mana +70resists) on that ring make the focus effect a nice bonus.

Rolaque
04-07-2004, 09:14 AM
Guys, this was just a vent... I really dont think he was looking for feedback. Just accept it as a rant and move on lol...Sorry, but it was a bona fide whine, not a vent. :)

Rolaque

Kineada
04-07-2004, 01:52 PM
there used to be 2 classes that could port... no they all can essentially

Technically, any caster who was bound in Timorous Deep can port to any city (before the binding nerf). I'm actually a big fan of PoK stones. It makes running around as a melee less painful. But nothing compares to just sitting down, memming an Iceclad port and ganking Lozidal before anyone knows he's up.

there used to be 2 classes that could regen... now there is 3? or is it more?

Rangers have been able to cast regen since Kunark (chloroplast). Then there are the bards who get regen before druids or shaman. I think that's four classes with regen from the kunark days.

there used to be 2 classes that could sow... now they all can

Everyone always forgets the rangers :( FoE and wolf form is still much faster. Hell, SoW is faster.

Now, let's look at a few non-druid spell items that druids can use...

Arch Shielding (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=30502)

Divine Aura - Rechargable (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=1747)

Illusion Dark Elf - Casino!!! (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=2469)

Illusion Skeleton (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=11646)

Rune III (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=68775)

Don't tell the enchanters ... They are gonna be pissed!

Vowelumos
04-07-2004, 02:01 PM
About SoW, there is currently an item available off of fabled creatures that will give cast anywhere instant SoW. Easy to get, instant right clickie.

You know it was made slightly slower and self only don't you?

tawnos
04-07-2004, 03:10 PM
- Making SoW, SoE, and any other running spell useless due to aa
- Giving other classes the classes the ability to cast sow with an item
I couldn't agree more. Suggest a class ability like ress get put onto a cheap and easily usable item and people will look at you like you're a mental patient. Its apparently perfectly fine to do so to a druid ability however.

- Making druid healing inadequate for GoD
Clearly there wasn't enough need for clerics already. I mean, its not like the most numerous class in virtually every roster of every guild is clerics. They sure needed an upgrade because the were at the bottom of guild recruitment lists.

- For Giving druids the worst mana regen of any casting class.
Incorrect. Enchanters have the worst mana regen of any casting class. In fact, their mana regen is worse than rangers also.

- For making Shamans better healers then druids, they're heal over time spells are actually better then NI in most cases.
I don't agree with this one. The efficiency of quiesence isn't terribly useful when the tank is dead before the last tick hits. In god, burst healing matters more most of the time.

- For Nerfing the secondary forte.. this should have been a druid only ability and should have gone all the way to 250, as ALL THE REST OF THE AA YOU GAVE US BLOW compared to other casters.
Other classes needed it too. For 15 aa, it should have gone to 200 also.

- For Having the worlds ****tiest pet, that does a ridiculously low amount of dps and cannot even take advantage of magician augments.
True, but unlike enchanters and shamans at least you don't have a worthless pet that is just a toy AND get some of your AA abilities used up on enhancements for said pet.

- For giving magicians more ability to charm then druids, when THEY HAVE NEVER HAD THE ABILITY TO CHARM PREVIOUSLY. Where is the fast casting Animal Mez? WHY THE ^%&*^ Does CHARM TAKE 10SEC TO CAST??
- For giving any charmable animal ridiculously high magic resistance and a high chance to break charm so that it only lasts for 30sec.
Except for pooka fun in vxed/tipt (yay low level zones) and old junk in pop, nobody can charm anyway so its largely irelevant. Updating POS to either increase the number of forest frogs or increase the number of druid charm targets (remove summoning from nongiants) would be a good plan to give a solo xp grind option for druids.

Noliniel
04-07-2004, 06:22 PM
I am too lazy to read other's long long posts so I am going to post my. :p

- Making SoW, SoE, and any other running spell useless due to aa
- Giving other classes the classes the ability to cast sow with an item

Not really, not everyone is going to spent 30 aas or more to get those run aas. I still get asked for soe a ton on raids and in grooups. Run 5 isn't as faster as SOE I think and run 5 doesn't have lev. Lev can be really usually in alot of places.

- Giving other classes the ability to stop rain
So what? Those items are limited chargesif I am not mistaken.. Plus, rain isn't an important part of the game anyways. Sure its annoying bu it doesn't block anything.

- For giving clerics the ability to cast Reagin using an aa.
They are the best healers. What's wrong give giving them more healing tools?

- Making druid porting obsolete.. no good for raids, no good for travel.
Acutally druid porting its still very important. People are lazy and hate to run for books/adv camps/etc and I get tons of port requests still. POK/adv camps just make everyone life alot easier. You have a problem with that lol?
- Making druid healing inadequate for GoD
I can heal pretty good in GOD, make you should raid there more in there before posting here. :p

- Providing worthless druid oriented loot. "WE CAN'T USE THE DOT EFFECTS BECAUSE YOU ORIENTED THE GAME FOR RAIDS OR GROUPS! "

Solo anyone?
- For Providing NO PoTime Druid only weapon.
I got my orb. Its better than a weapon. :)
- For ****ing up Harmony so that it can't even lower the aggro of mobs in BoT anymore let alone GoD. AND I'm NOT talking about the reduced effect time.
That's a long time ago and we learned to live with it. So can you :p

- For Giving druids the worst mana regen of any casting class.

How so? Data on a spreedsheet please ! :p
- For making Shamans better healers then druids, they're heal over time spells are actually better then NI in most cases.
Really not true lol. Heal over times heals kinda useless in GOD. :(
- For Nerfing the secondary forte.. this should have been a druid only ability and should have gone all the way to 250, as ALL THE REST OF THE AA YOU GAVE US BLOW compared to other casters.

It was a bug, never should have happened.
- For Having the worlds ****tiest pet, that does a ridiculously low amount of dps and cannot even take advantage of magician augments.

So what? we not a pet class, we are a priest class after all. Booboo isn't that bad really.

- For giving magicians more ability to charm then druids, when THEY HAVE NEVER HAD THE ABILITY TO CHARM PREVIOUSLY. Where is the fast casting Animal Mez? WHY THE ^%&*^ Does CHARM TAKE 10SEC TO CAST??
More animal mobs out there than elementals
.
- For giving any charmable animal ridiculously high magic resistance and a high chance to break charm so that it only lasts for 30sec.
Please get your facts right before posting...

- For PROVIDING ZERO REBALANCING FOR ALL THE SPELLS YOU'VE TAKEN AWAY AND ALL THE SPELLS YOU'VE MADE OBSOLETE.
Lol?
- FOR OUTRIGHT LYING TO USERS.. It's an insult to us when you lie, you're telling us you think we're too stupid to know the difference. If Gates of Discord was such a success, then it's only because YOU LIED to the users, because 90% of EQ players can't even get into GoD zones let alone pass the GoD trials. Users who can't play the game BOUGHT THE GAME because YOU LIED TO THEM.

Yeah they lied some but not as much as you think. Calm down.

Sorry just had to correct some of the mistakes you made. However I do respect your opinion. :p

Megadwen
04-07-2004, 08:14 PM
and forgot...

- For Providing NO PoTime Druid only weapon.

Hammer of Hours works nicely. most clerics want the cleric hammer and most shaman want the TA. so it's basically druid only :)

Len the Druid
04-08-2004, 02:58 PM
Give me a ring spells for every zone in the game then I'll have that old "i can port" magic again

Yeah you could do a key turn in for VP,VT ring etc..

AND NO!!! Not circles..just rings.

Glynna1
04-08-2004, 04:10 PM
Hammer of Hours works nicely. most clerics want the cleric hammer and most shaman want the AT. so it's basically druid only

Actually lots of Clerics have Hammer of hours and so do Shamans

Islington
04-08-2004, 04:37 PM
Actually lots of Clerics have Hammer of hours and so do Shamans
Hammer of Hours is a lot more common than the Cleric only Hammer so many Clerics go this route instead of holding out for a weapon that may not drop in 20+ clearings.

Glynna1
04-08-2004, 04:50 PM
Exactly Islington which is why I disagree that it can be considered a "druid only" weapon.

kendali
04-09-2004, 01:50 AM
My only comment because I think everything has been said pretty well on both sides is....why are we the only charming class that can't mez the things we charm?
The answer is supposed to be because we can snare our pets for 14 minutes right? (I think it's 14 min at lvl 65 but I'm not in the mood to check lucy atm)
So why are there a bunch of charmable animals that are unsnareable (think LDoN rujark and povalor even though you can find an occassional gamite frog that is snareable if you look long enough =P)? Make them snareable, give us an animal mez (heck make it work only on animals flagged unsnareable), or make all those unsnareable charm pets unmezzable for other classes...

I believe that covers it =P

Kendali Thistlewood
Storm Warden of Tunare

Noliniel
04-09-2004, 09:12 AM
Yeah but it makes more sense to give those HOHs to druids since clerics have their own hammer and its focus effect its kinda useless to them. Shammies have their slow stick and god knows why they want a hoh...

Islington
04-09-2004, 09:20 AM
Yeah but it makes more sense to give those HOHs to druids since clerics have their own hammer and its focus effect its kinda useless to them. Shammies have their slow stick and god knows why they want a hoh...
I'm not sure I agree. Personally I feel it's up to the individual Cleric. If they feel that the Cleric Hammer is being too stingy, it's their call if they want to bid their hard earned DKP for a Hammer of Hours. Stats are amazing regardless of who gets it and Hours, seems, to be a lot more common than the Cleric Hammer. So if a Cleric, Shaman and Druid all want one that happens to drop, let the person who feels it's the biggest upgrade to him/her spend the points he/she feels it's worth.

Glynna1
04-09-2004, 10:47 AM
I have to agree with Islington. It is NOT a druid only item. Let those that can use have the option to bid. Just because there is not a Time Only weapon doesn't mean we should have exclusive rights to it.

Those that got the Druid only weapon from MM are fortunate to have a right click from inventory weapon as you can still use that and upgrade your existing weapon in hand. I never bid on that weapon as others needed it more than me, stat wise. Sad thing is MM is not a mob you do more than to flag people and the rarity of that weapon is high.

Kulothar
04-09-2004, 03:15 PM
Agree with some of the points. disagree with some and some are moot. SoE doesn't care about druids and we get fixes as an afterthought that benefits some other class when the do something. You may not agree with that statement but it is true. Anyone that has played longer than me can re-educate me on that point. IE anyone that played beta 3 or earlier. Yes, I am bitter from years (5) of experience.

Direct quote from Sony:

"Druids possess excellent healing abilities, powerful mana and health regenerative spells, and valuable enhancements that improve the health and armor of their group.
Offensively, druids are both powerful and versatile. They have access to fire and cold-based damage spells, a selection of disease and swarm spells that damage their enemies over time, and devastating banishment spells focused upon unnaturally summoned creatures. Druids also gain some of the best travel spells, including the ability to speed up their group's movement and teleport their group to distant regions."

End of quote.

This board for the past 5 years has documented nerfs, side benefits we have obtained and the fact that every ability we have exists in a clicky items somewhere. (see link in Malrik post).

As for Mage charming, they do have more zones than the 3 listed but still fewer zones than druids that they can charm in. Basicly they can charm anything our anti-summon DD line will work against up to lv 60 including any summoned pet a boss mob has. They are summoners... why would they have a charm? Don't know, no logic to it except to give mages a warm and fuzzy feeling. Does that make our charm worse? NO, the fact that SoE won't fix animal tags in zones, our charms cast slow and break easy and the number of animals DC able is low makes it worse so don't blame the mages.

When we started neither shaman nor druids had pets but now to make shaman survive longer, they are a pet class and we keep being told we are not. We have more of an afinity to animals and dis-afinity to elementals so more logically would get pets. Instead we get charms that have to be channeled for 10 seconds through an attack, insta agro and break fast and cannot be used on over half of the animals in the game and none of the summoned. And our plant charm is a joke just like many of our spells and AA.

SoE has tried since the first year to get rid of druids but we are still here. Use the skills that you have and ignore the fact that we get nothing special and any other class can use our abilites. The object is to not let SoE kill you off.

Megadwen
04-10-2004, 03:56 PM
I'd say a good portion of the clerics in my guild have quite high dkp. they are all mostly holding off for the cleric hammer. some probably will give up and go for the HoH.
as for shaman, the timeburn effect is great for shaman dots, i won't deny that. but the TA.. a clicky slow, is absolutely the best thing a shaman can get imo. considering there are only about 5 active shaman, and we will be farming time for a while longer, waiting for it is just a good idea.

Noliniel
04-11-2004, 02:47 AM
Well if you in a dkp guild, then its a different story. If Merhit then druids will get the HOH over clerics assuming they both have the same attendence rate etc.. It makes no sense at all to give shammy a HOH. They got their slow stick. giving them a hoh its a waste. Like totally waste since they going to get their slow stick sooner or later. Ours rots now.

Suva
04-12-2004, 05:34 PM
My guild has had quite good luck for the cleric hammers dropping, yet most of the clerics want the HoH over the cleric hammer or bought both. We've seen the cleric hammers going to alts over clerics who have a HoH already and just don't want it.

I think the view on some of the listed concerns varies depending on if you play more as a casual player or a hardcore raider. Yeah they still may be a concern, but just not as big of one. The lower level druid trying to earn money to buy thier spell or such by casting ports and sow and such would be more upset by people not needing them as much. The hardcore raider usually(not always) doesn't need the cash from buffing and porting and is happy just to be left alone from buff requests.

The orb while being a nifty toy, is just that IMO. On a raid I spend a lot of time healing and can only clicky my orb on a more trivial encounter and then also only if there is a strong healing crowd there that I know if i take the time to cast the dot, people won't die from lack of patching. Often mobs slots are full anyway so taking up room with the dots is discouraged. For solo'ing I'll toss the dot on a mob, but most of the damage will come from my nukes anyway. All the dot does mostly is keep the mob from regen'ing. The critical affliction aa seems to generate a lot of extra aggro. I've only cast 2 dots on a mob in an exp group and done nothing else and I'll be summoned.

As for healing, right now I'd be happy if our heal spell even dropped. I only know of 1 druid on my server who even has it. I would have prefered the heal spell to come from the kod'taz stones than the sewers. Yay I have a nifty new nuke, but I can hardly keep up on healing. I know the new heal isn't spectacular, but it's still better IMO.

For clerics being the best healers...not always true. Clerics have more tools to be the better healers. This does not make them a better healer. I expect a cleric to be able to heal faster than me. If they can't, I tend to not group with them.

Alaten
04-14-2004, 01:47 AM
30 aa is not that many aa for innate run 5, and you don't have to cast ANYTHING to get it once you have it. I'm with the poster on this one. While I appreciate our super informed clerics try to discredit the original poster on a druid forum, I'll have to disagree with pretty much everything they've said.

Out of all the classes, druids get the shaft on most categories thanks to SoE's new "features" and AA's. Nobody wants SoEagles anymore because the bobbing still sucks with the levitation. Why take up a buff slot to get seasick when you get 50% runspeed INNATE (means no casting or buffslots for you "oldschool" non-druids who like to come here spouting details). Why get a pet spell if it's only really a liability or a toy at best. No form of mezz is available for a druid, yet mages get one along with their charm. As one who has played every class besides beasty, bard, and berzerker, I can make the INFORMED decision that druids get shafted every expansion. I'm sure all druids are now informed on their class because clerics have come to the DRUIDSGROVE to spout details about our class.
Let's get into details shall we?

" I assume you actually meant "regen." Celestial Regeneration is actually a group Heal Over Time spell."

I assume you've heard of Exquisite Benediction? Clerics ARE given a AE REGEN (yes it's a regen spell, 25-45 a tick I would consider regen, wouldn't you?) AND the best spells healing-wise. Last time I checked my clerics Cele Regen timer was 15 minutes and my druids SOTW was 22. If you're having problems getting AA, maybe you should find other places where an AA takes 15-30 minutes so you can stop bagging on how many AA are needed.



"I've played a Wizard, a Cleric and a Paladin. There is no possible way you will EVER be able to tell me that ports are worthless even in the age of the Nexus and POK Books."

Bind in PoK, take a book in PoK that will take you anywhere in EQ withing 2 or 3 zones, with INNATE RUN 5 it's a 5 min max run to anywhere.



"- For making Shamans better healers then druids, they're heal over time spells are actually better then NI in most cases

Ummmm, yeah.... Sure... Whatever..."

Obviously you've never played either because your ignorance shines in this statement. Quiescence for 200m is perfect for most groups sans GoD unless you have a pathetic tank with 5khps buffed. 500m a cast for NI drains mana even from a 6k manapool druid with max FT and Alt spec. Add in the fact that shamans have cannibalize and the same regen spells that druids have and I'd say shamans healing over time is MUCH more efficient. As far as GoD, I think neither can heal effectively so that scratches both classes out for healing in a GoD group. Clerics have pretty much the monopoly on Kod'Taz and higher and I'd even say the trials to get there is pretty much locked for clerics as well.


"Why the hell should it have gone up to 250? That is completely ridiculous considering regular specilization caps at 200. Druid only ability? Please, that's pure greed speaking right there. And I'm not sure how it was "nerfed" considering that it was stated long before going live that the cap would be 100. With all of that said, I agree that 15 AA for a 3% savings on spells is harsh but mana savings is mana savings. And for the character with all other AA, that's still a 3% mana savings"

Let's talk about savings there. How about a plate class with DA/DB/target DA AA that casts a 400m spell to heal for BASE 7500hps versus a leather wearing class that casts a 600m spell to heal for 5600 with the best healing mod and full healing AA and noway to mitigate healing aggro other than getting a rez from a CLERIC in most cases. Cast a 400m spell 10 times then cast a 600m spell 10 times, see how useful that 4m a tick helps you.


Ignorance is bliss, Isn't it?


Elder Alaten
Storm Warden

Exarch Valisx Stormshield
Archon

Marshall Retern Tocinder
Warlord

Elder Akhammy
Prophet

Venerable Enclarity
Coercer

Marauder Xalis
Assassin

Alaten
04-14-2004, 02:11 AM
"Instant Gate potions cost about 1k! You call that no problem or in your own letters "np"? Right Clickie gate item is the result of a long quest. And unless you're elementally flagged, you have to put up with a gate necklace that can only be used a limited number of times. "

You need a clue, gate necklaces are not just neck items with a clicky effect,they're also rechargable and have very nice stats. The only true statement in that entire jargon was the part about it being a quest.



"Cleric Hammer is a stat upgrade only. The proc doesn't give the Cleric any further DPS than that of the Level 63 Hammer. The proc is simply a "toy" unlike your clicky dot which has practical uses."

The only thing you've posted in this thread that makes sense. Cleric PoTime hammer sucks worse than Druid's ranged orb effect-wise.


"No Shaman are NOT better healers than druids. Period."
Actually when I trio box I never heal with my druid because for 200m on my shaman I get the same result as 500m on my druid WITHOUT THE AGGRO. You seriously have NO CLUE when it comes to druids or shamans.


I'm in agreement with Suva, the GoD heal spell seems to be a real rarity on Brell. I'm curious who the druid is that has it. I saw in guildchat one rotting the first week of GoD, haven't seen another since. So far none of the Ikkinz trials have netted a spell that I've seen either.

The tools that clerics have from D'arbitration, to invulnerability to twice as fast casting heals to group heals/heals over time to having the mitigation of plate and the cheal power to really complete heal, it allows so much room for inability. If a druid heals better than a cleric, it's time to look for a new cleric.

Elder Alaten
Storm Warden
Watchers
Brell Serilis

Palarran
04-14-2004, 08:40 AM
How do you recharge the small/powered clockwork talismans?

Suva
04-14-2004, 03:49 PM
Alaten,

Not sure on the name of the druid. Someone at fan faire told me an Alarius druid had a copy though.

Islington
04-14-2004, 04:11 PM
30 aa is not that many aa for innate run 5, and you don't have to cast ANYTHING to get it once you have it. That's an opinion. For some people, 30 AA is a lot. For others, it's not that much. It's completely subjective. However, with that said, I'm willing to bet that most people have many BETTER things to spend AA on than Run Speed 4 and 5.

If you're having problems getting AA, maybe you should find other places where an AA takes 15-30 minutes so you can stop bagging on how many AA are needed. You do realize that the majority of people who play this game don't have access to those places where you can get an AA every 15 - 30 minutes don't you?

Bind in PoK, take a book in PoK that will take you anywhere in EQ withing 2 or 3 zones, with INNATE RUN 5 it's a 5 min max run to anywhere. First you're making the faulty assumption that everybody has Run 5 which we all know is not true. Second, you CANNOT compare the ability to port at anytime from anyplace with POK books. PERIOD. Are POK books useful? Yes, I never claimed otherwise. But the ability to self port at will is huge. I've played the melee who doesn't have even have Gate. I've played the caster with Gate and Faithstone. And I've played the Wizard who can port at will. Guess which has the easiest time getting around? No, I'm sorry, you're wrong, it wasn't the Paladin. It's the Wizard.

Quiescence for 200m is perfect for most groups sans GoD unless you have a pathetic tank with 5khps buffed. 500m a cast for NI drains mana even from a 6k manapool druid with max FT and Alt spec. Add in the fact that shamans have cannibalize and the same regen spells that druids have and I'd say shamans healing over time is MUCH more efficient. Being more efficient does NOT equal being better. Druids are better healers than Shaman. Period. Quiescence will never keep a person alive against mobs that hit hard.

Let's talk about savings there. How about a plate class with DA/DB/target DA AA that casts a 400m spell to heal for BASE 7500hps versus a leather wearing class that casts a 600m spell to heal for 5600 with the best healing mod and full healing AA and noway to mitigate healing aggro other than getting a rez from a CLERIC in most cases. Cast a 400m spell 10 times then cast a 600m spell 10 times, see how useful that 4m a tick helps you. What does that have to do with anything? Secondary Forte is mana savings. 3 percent by itself may not be much but it all adds up. Every little bit DOES help. Period. Now is Secondary Forte overpriced? Yes it is, but mana savings is mana savings and every little bit helps.

You need a clue, gate necklaces are not just neck items with a clicky effect,they're also rechargable and have very nice stats. The only true statement in that entire jargon was the part about it being a quest. How are these rechargable? Do the quest over? And the stats are only low to average for most people capable of getting them. By the time you get the 2nd, you can have an equally good neck item. And the 3rd requires Elemental access. Let's just say that there are Elemental necks and lower that are far better statwise than the Gate Neck and leave it at that.

The tools that clerics have from D'arbitration, to invulnerability to twice as fast casting heals to group heals/heals over time to having the mitigation of plate and the cheal power to really complete heal, it allows so much room for inability. If a druid heals better than a cleric, it's time to look for a new cleric. WRONG! Clerics do NOT mitigate on the Plate Tables. Clerics mitigate on the caster tables. That shiny plate means nothing to survivability. In fact it's a huge drawback because it forces Clerics to compete for Plate drops with classes than can (and do) get much more use out of it (we'll call them tanks). And yes, Clerics do have more tools to keep a group alive and healed than a Druid does. Why the hell would it be otherwise?

Good day mein freund.

Suva
04-14-2004, 05:12 PM
I wasn't trying to say clerics shouldn't have more tools. I agree they should. I was just pointing out that just cause they have the tools does not mean they know how to use them. Hearing the arguement so often that clerics are the better healers annoys me. That is dependent on the healer since a good druid is a better healer than a crappy cleric.

Kineada
04-14-2004, 07:08 PM
WRONG! Clerics do NOT mitigate on the Plate Tables. Clerics mitigate on the caster tables.

Well ... Clerics mitigate better than monks :P



















Then again, so do druids. Oh and by the bye, clerics use the priest mitigation tables, not caster. Considering equal AC, clerics, druids and shaman mitigate at the same level. But as a general rule, clerics will have more AC than shaman who will have more AC than druids (plate > chain > leather). This is true until the AC softcap where endgame clerics, shaman and druids are all over the cap. At which point, all priests mitigate within the measurement error. Think mana per WIS over 200 wisdom ... but the ratio is much much worse for AC.

Islington
04-14-2004, 07:43 PM
I wasn't trying to say clerics shouldn't have more tools. I agree they should. I was just pointing out that just cause they have the tools does not mean they know how to use them. Hearing the arguement so often that clerics are the better healers annoys me. That is dependent on the healer since a good druid is a better healer than a crappy cleric.
Well I do agree with that and I think it goes without saying. I started my Wizard after my Cleric was 60 (this was Luclin era) and when I grouped there was a huge difference between a bad Cleric and a good Druid. The Cleric has all the tools in the world to keep a group alive but if they're incompentant, than those tools might as well not exist. Conversely, I've grouped with Druids who lacked all the tools but were able to keep groups alive far better than those bad Clerics.

For arguments sake though, it's always best to assume 2 equally skilled (or incompetant) players.

Palarran
04-14-2004, 09:04 PM
Aren't AC softcaps, and the rate of mitigation gain after that point, class dependent?
A 1000 AC druid and 1000 AC cleric might mitigate damage exactly the same, but that doesn't necessarily mean that 1500 AC ones will too.

Malrik
04-14-2004, 09:07 PM
I thought all the softcaps went away for all PoP + content? If that is not the case are we still cap'd at 1k ac?

Danixzzel
04-15-2004, 12:10 AM
That's not really how it works....

Mitigation is a function of a Mob's ATK and a player's mitigation AC (which is not displayed directly on your screen cause numbers r hard). The 'soft cap' that gets talked about is what happens when your AC exceeds a mobs ATK. For example if Lord Nagafen has 750 ATK and your warrior tanking him has 700 AC, gaining 50 AC will make a huge difference. However, gaining another 50 AC will show 'diminishing returns,' since you already have the AC 'required' to tank. Now if same tank goes to tank Trakannon who happens to have 1000 ATK, he's going to want alot more AC. So the 'soft cap' varries from mob to mob, but all mobs in a given expansion or teir tend to be balanced with a specific AC in mind.

That's kind of a simplistic explanation of it... there's some good threads on the warriors boards regarding this subject though.

Alaten
04-15-2004, 11:20 AM
"WRONG! Clerics do NOT mitigate on the Plate Tables. "

I have a 65 cleric with 200 days played and a 65 druid with 250. THE CLERIC MITIGATES AND CHANNELS MUCH BETTER THAN THE DRUID WITH LESS AC. I speak from experience, not from what you read on lucy or alla. BTW when my cleric does get aggro and doesn't need to channel a spell. DA/DB are always memmed and it mitigates 100% versus a druid just being... well... dead. I've tanked in PoE with my druid and my cleric and the cleric with about the same AC with almost 1khps less tanks FAR FAR better with about 200 less aa's. Anyone who has played a cleric and a druid from low level to high end will tell you the same. No, playing a cleric for 200 days and a druid for 5 doesn't count.



"That's an opinion. For some people, 30 AA is a lot. For others, it's not that much. It's completely subjective. However, with that said, I'm willing to bet that most people have many BETTER things to spend AA on than Run Speed 4 and 5.
and
"What does that have to do with anything? Secondary Forte is mana savings. 3 percent by itself may not be much but it all adds up. Every little bit DOES help. Period. Now is Secondary Forte overpriced? Yes it is, but mana savings is mana savings and every little bit helps. "

so basically 30aa to run almost sow fast ALL THE TIME without a buff icon used nor a buff bot standing next to you is not a priority for a melee? and giving 3% savings for 20aa is worth it? The first GoD AA's I got for my warrior after hp ones were run 4/5. Being naked at bind and running almost sow speed is the best thing since sliced bread for a melee. In trying to counterpoint me you contradict yourself in the same post. 20-30AA is alot for ANY class, but 3% savings for a druid versus run5 for a melee is laughable.



"Being more efficient does NOT equal being better. Druids are better healers than Shaman. Period. Quiescence will never keep a person alive against mobs that hit hard"

When I play shaman in anything but GoD and I have my druid in group as well, the only spell I use to heal is Quiescence unless my tank has 1300AC or less. Q running on tanks allows for 500m savings on druid to heal the same damage. Druids have a better line of heals, but in NO WAY is it more efficient to a shamans. I see duo war/sham's all the time lately in tough exp spots. If a shaman's heals were so bad (other than kraggs) why is there not a cleric or druid instead of a shaman? My warrior is nothing special, neither is my shaman, but even they can duo in PoV. Note: kraggs mending blows, can't believe that spell is still in my spellbook. Shamans could use a raid level fast heal for 2k, but that's another thread on another forum :)



"First you're making the faulty assumption that everybody has Run 5 which we all know is not true. Second, you CANNOT compare the ability to port at anytime from anyplace with POK books. PERIOD. Are POK books useful? Yes, I never claimed otherwise. But the ability to self port at will is huge. I've played the melee who doesn't have even have Gate."

My warrior can get to anywhere including CS (now that PoM is moved) in less than 5 minutes, I was being generous in saying 5 minutes for remote places like the karanas where it's faster to port to. Most exp spots in the planes take less than a minute. For a melee, run 5 is a high priority compared to a druid so saying I'm assuming means that a warrior is active enough to get 30AA and knows how to get around in Norrath without a druid/wiz. Self port and group port are nice to have, but definitely not the necessity compared to 4 years ago. The boat... the boat... the boat the boat the boat.



"Let's just say that there are Elemental necks and lower that are far better statwise than the Gate Neck and leave it at that."

My warrior neck does require a reagent, a pita to get one too. Rarely have I had the need to gate on my warrior because of run 5 now. I would agree to say the necklace is a real pain to get so running around norrath does suck at times. I've yet to get a better neck from anything that drops in elementals for my warrior in experience groups. The quest for the neck requires no raid needed and can be gotten in exp groups, which makes it the best neck for my warrior. (the water in PoV and fire took forever in exp groups, so I will agree with you in saying it's a pain to get). Elemental access at least on our server is pretty much a given if you've been around more than a year or two. I've seen indi people to small newbie guilds in the elementals now and growing with every RZtW death.



"WRONG! Clerics do NOT mitigate on the Plate Tables. Clerics mitigate on the caster tables. That shiny plate means nothing to survivability. In fact it's a huge drawback because it forces Clerics to compete for Plate drops with classes than can (and do) get much more use out of it (we'll call them tanks). And yes, Clerics do have more tools to keep a group alive and healed than a Druid does. Why the hell would it be otherwise?"

Rarely have I seen a piece of plate have less hp/ac than leather. I speak from experience regarding mitigation of druid versus cleric, not what allak or lucy quotes.
Final point, yes it sucks beyond belief to compete with 10 other clerics, 10 other warriors, 8 paladins and throw in a couple bards too. Leather competition is usually small with the amount of quality monks/beasts/druids. It's gotten to a point where we all hope for plate drops because leather loot rots. I'm glad druids don't feel clerics pain during loot drops.

Let's bash SoE for all those leather wrists/arms/pants that have rotted while clerics and warriors continue to bid against each other. Raid demographics have alot to do with this though. Usually now you have 6-9 warriors on and about 7-11 clerics versus about 1-3 druids on the raid.

Esp in higher GoD raids, a druid heal lands about 2 seconds after someone's dead. Clerics with SL are pretty much essential while druids are now fill in healers for people not getting hit or are just DPS/BoT9 people. A 3.75 second base heal for 2k is about 1.5 seconds too long when a mob that hits very fast in the 1800-3500's is coming. While it sucks, it gives clerics an opportunity to shine, which is fine by me.

In the same token, when a cleric bashes a druid for being frustrated about their class I have a problem understanding why. I love my clerics tools, I love being needed on raids and exp groups. I love being the lifeblood of raids and challenging groups. I, speaking as a cleric don't see the issue with letting druids be frustrated about their class other than just to point/counterpoint.

AmonraSet
04-15-2004, 01:11 PM
I have a 65 cleric with 200 days played and a 65 druid with 250. THE CLERIC MITIGATES AND CHANNELS MUCH BETTER THAN THE DRUID WITH LESS AC. .

If I try and tank anything these days I get turned into a greasy splat on the floor. Perhaps you could compare it to a druid tanking and try and measure the splat size to see who did worse but essentially both clerics and druids share an inability to tank.

so basically 30aa to run almost sow fast ALL THE TIME without a buff icon used nor a buff bot standing next to you is not a priority for a melee? and giving 3% savings for 20aa is worth it? .

Why are you trying to compare 2 different AA's? Some are valuable, some arent. If you don't think 20AA is worth a 3% mana saving then don't buy it. As a cleric I don't think spending 18AA for a broken skill like turn undead is worthwhile so I don't buy it. I don't bother moaning that it isnt as good as the points I spend on healing adept.

When I play shaman in anything but GoD and I have my druid in group as well, the only spell I use to heal is Quiescence unless my tank has 1300AC or less. Q running on tanks allows for 500m savings on druid to heal the same damage. Druids have a better line of heals, but in NO WAY is it more efficient to a shamans..

Quiesence heals 60 hps and there is nothing that can be done to increase this amount. 60dps of damage will kill a top tank (12khp) in about 3.5 minutes. So yup, if youre fighting stuff where a cleric could throw a CH every 3 mins and keep the tank alive then the shaman would be a great healer. If you want to try something a little more challenging then a druid is a better choice.

Self port and group port are nice to have, but definitely not the necessity compared to 4 years ago. The boat... the boat... the boat the boat the boat.

Nobody is suggesting that ports are as useful as they were 4 years ago, however they are saying they are still nice to have. Exactly what you just said in fact...


I've yet to get a better neck from anything that drops in elementals for my warrior in experience groups. The quest for the neck requires no raid needed and can be gotten in exp groups, which makes it the best neck for my warrior.

Wow, single grouping RZTW and Solusek Ro. I'm impressed. I know you said that elemental access is now a given on your server, but most players don't have access to the fluffy fairyland server.
Most people who have done the raid requirements to access the elementals will be able to get access to better neck pieces.
I also notice that you have subtly dropped your insistence that there are rechargable gate items for melees.

Esp in higher GoD raids, a druid heal lands about 2 seconds after someone's dead. Clerics with SL are pretty much essential while druids are now fill in healers for people not getting hit or are just DPS/BoT9 people. A 3.75 second base heal for 2k is about 1.5 seconds too long when a mob that hits very fast in the 1800-3500's is coming.

You seem unaware that SL has the same cast time as NI. If a druid heal is 1.5 seconds late then the cleric one will be too. Clerics do have a smaller but faster cast time heal in 1.8 seconds (SR), but after max focus effects SL casts in 2.3 seconds so is only half a second slower. For this reason I never bother casting SR any more because the extra healing from SL is worth the extra half second cast time.
The druids on our raids form an essential part of our raid healing while having the versatility to also provide significant dps at times when we don't need them for healing.

Megadwen
04-15-2004, 01:33 PM
A 3.75 second base heal for 2k is about 1.5 seconds too long when a mob that hits very fast in the 1800-3500's is coming. While it sucks, it gives clerics an opportunity to shine, which is fine by me.


if your at the stage in the game where mobs are hitting very fast in the 3k's... and your heal is still 3.75 second cast time then you should kill yourself. at that level in the game you are pretty much required to get a spell haste item and BoR from clerics help~

and the mitigate thing.. as you said before when mobs are hitting in the 3k's fast, getting hit for like 500 less damage isn't even really enough to keep your ass alive. LR5 is basically the only shot you have at survival :)

Danixzzel
04-15-2004, 02:38 PM
"WRONG! Clerics do NOT mitigate on the Plate Tables. "

I have a 65 cleric with 200 days played and a 65 druid with 250. THE CLERIC MITIGATES AND CHANNELS MUCH BETTER THAN THE DRUID WITH LESS AC. I speak from experience, not from what you read on lucy or alla. BTW when my cleric does get aggro and doesn't need to channel a spell. DA/DB are always memmed and it mitigates 100% versus a druid just being... well... dead. I've tanked in PoE with my druid and my cleric and the cleric with about the same AC with almost 1khps less tanks FAR FAR better with about 200 less aa's. Anyone who has played a cleric and a druid from low level to high end will tell you the same. No, playing a cleric for 200 days and a druid for 5 doesn't count.

So you're saying that two different classes with different gear and different AAs tanked differently and the obvious conclusion is that mitigation was the factor, right? That's not exactly a controlled experiment as it were.

If you really want to prove that cleric and druid mitigation is different you'd have to get a druid and a cleric with identicle AC/AAs/Time effects (sheilding, avoidence, etc.) And parse for atleast 6 hours on a moderatly hard hitting mob. If they were to show a difference of more then a couple percent in total damage mitigated then you'd have a case. Subsituting for all of that though I'm 95% certain that SoE/VI said at one point that all priest classes mitigate the same.

Danixzzel
04-15-2004, 02:41 PM
Oh, and if they do have the same mitigation tables then clerics will mitigate more damage then druids because they have access to higher AC items in the game, as well as more sheilding items. Druids have access to more +avoidence, though obviously the difference between mitigation and AC is something that SoE doesn't take advantage of often when designing the game.

Kineada
04-15-2004, 05:14 PM
Oh, and if they do have the same mitigation tables then clerics will mitigate more damage then druids because they have access to higher AC items in the game, as well as more sheilding items.

The cleric will mitigate better until the AC softcap. A cleric will mitigate better than a druid since they have access to higher AC items. But once both cleric and druid are past the softcap, they mitigate the same (we're talking end-game equipment). The cleric MAY still have more AC than the druid, but that extra AC won't help all that much.

Monks have found their softcap is around 1350AC (after ID5/LR5). They also found that they gain 1AC for every 40AC of equipment over the softcap (or something aweful like that). Warriors by comparison have a softcap at 1750AC and gain 1AC for every 4AC of equipment they put on.

Since priests haven't really done any real parses on AC, we don't know if we do have a softcap. Some believe that the softcap is 1000AC ... But Brodda's parses show that druids mitigate better than monks. Druids do get him more often than monks but on a single hit (average damage per hit in this case), the druid will take less damage than a monk. That leads me to believe that the priest softcap is at least above 1350AC.

brum15
04-15-2004, 07:06 PM
Bind in PoK, take a book in PoK that will take you anywhere in EQ withing 2 or 3 zones, with INNATE RUN 5 it's a 5 min max run to anywhere


Ok we are done here in BOT tower/ Griegs end/xana raid ETC. lets all port out. What we have a cleric? guess he can gate and we can fight our way back out again. wait he needs to stay to heal us. Ok everyone. plan on an extra 30 minutes or so fighting our way back out. Ports have uses. Need to get to Karanas? Cobalt scar, dragon necropolis? Twilight sea? grimling forest? Western waste, Skyfire(few peep use the Overthere that I know of--everyone still wants the skyfire port to go to chardok) Emerald jungle? Back out of any one way dungeon? Back out of deep in dungeon. Bind yourself in dungeon and run to POK to pick up an item for group? set up a COH chain with a mage?

Do a quick check on named mobs for raid night? Get whole guild together for raid (5 minutes running to check on mobs up in 6 different zones is 60 minutes(there and back again)--5 ports to 6 different zones is about 8 minutes. Now you see the target up. Ports get your guild there in raid force in about 5-10 minutes including stragglers. running will be about 20 including stragglers. So the guild with porters who finds a raid mob on 6th port has spent about 15 minutes. The guild without has spent about 1.5 hours. Guess which raid gets the mob?

Ports have their uses.

Malrik
04-15-2004, 07:16 PM
Do a quick check on named mobs for raid night? Get whole guild together for raid (5 minutes running to check on mobs up in 6 different zones is 60 minutes(there and back again)--5 ports to 6 different zones is about 8 minutes.

No one is saying that ports are usless but the fact remains that, using your example, you will only ever need one druid to check mobs (which a ranger does better) while you will need 3-6 cleric to kill that one mob.

I dont think we want to get into what a raid needs more, cleric or druid.

If port'n out of a deep dungon was such a big deal then why do druid not get more GoD invites? I think the answer is that DPS and reliable heals means more then port'n out of a dungon.

brum15
04-15-2004, 07:25 PM
Sorry Malrik. that post was totally in reply to cosmoxx.



- Making druid porting obsolete.. no good for raids, no good for travel

I was just trying to point out to him some of the ways ports are useful. I dont disagree with your other posts. except one thing. rangers are better if they are bots and can be camped in zone. A druid can still get to zones faster and sometimes mere minutes determines which guild gets raid mobs.

Malrik
04-15-2004, 07:28 PM
A druid can still get to zones faster and sometimes mere minutes determines which guild gets raid mobs.

Have to agree with ya there, several times a druid looking for raid level mobs got our guild to the mob faster then a competing guild

Sskeli
04-16-2004, 03:16 AM
*snip*

Shadowfrost
04-16-2004, 05:46 AM
Just to make a point on the subject of clerics having better AC than druids: There's been one credible test of which I'm aware on the value of AC to clerics. It was conducted by Mikar of the cleric boards early in the PoP expansion.

In a fairly extensive parse, he proved that the difference between a ~1000 AC cleric and a ~1500 AC cleric was that the ~1500AC cleric took ~3% less damage. This was less than the statistical margin of error for the test, iirc.

Iilane SalAlur
04-16-2004, 07:31 AM
More AC does not imply proportionally more damage mitigation.

If you know anything about the melee system, you would know that quoting raw ac numbers are useless. AC is just half the equation, you need the mob's attack number too.

As an extreme example, I can show logs of a wisp hitting me in east commonlands with and without armor. With that log I can guarantee you that the difference between a ~700 AC druid and a ~1100 AC druid was that the ~1100 AC druid took ~3% less damage.

My point is that the amount of damage mitigation provided by AC isn't a simple straight line equation whereby more AC = proportionally more damage mitigation. Anyone who has played eq for long would know that each expansion seem to be designed around a certain AC level. If your AC is less that the expansion's AC level, you will get hit for max damage very often. If your AC is more than the expansion's AC level, you won't get hit for max damage as often.

For PoP, the AC level somewhere around 1000-1100 for druids. For GoD it seems to be around 1300-1400 for druids. What is not know is if the required AC levels for druids and clerics are the same. I'll hazard a guess that they are different since cleric armor generally have 2.5 times the AC of druid armor.

Shadowfrost
04-16-2004, 08:59 AM
Mikar's parse was against the Valiant Spirits in the Halls of Honor iirc. Not wisps, lol.

I've heard the theories about soft caps, and I'm fairly certain that the melees who espouse these views ought to know what they're talking about as far as their own classes are concerned. I don't know whether the soft caps apply to priests, though, and from my experience, I'm inclined to think that large AC numbers aren't of particularly great value to priests.

Clerics do seem to have greater survivability under attack than druids, but I think that this is down to the fact that (a) the cleric can shed aggro with DA when necessary, (b) clerics have big hp buffs on themselves which aren't always an option for druids, and (c) clerics can heal themselves more effectively while under attack. I don't think that AC is a real factor.

Sskeli
04-16-2004, 01:36 PM
This board suppresses freedom of speech. I used no foul language in my previous post.

Let it be known the Druid's Grove is a place where people can't post your own opinions if they do not match those of the people "in power".


--------------
Sskeli
Necro Know-it-all
Die prz.

Danixzzel
04-16-2004, 03:35 PM
Presentation makes a big difference...

Kineada
04-16-2004, 04:14 PM
This board suppresses freedom of speech. I used no foul language in my previous post.

Let it be known the Druid's Grove is a place where people can't post your own opinions if they do not match those of the people "in power".

Freedom of speech is the freedom for a person or entity to say what they please using their own resources. Provided it does not cause harm to other people (the yelling "FIRE!" in a crowded theater example).

using their own resources

This is the key that applies to these boards. A newspaper editor can edit a reporter's article if the editor does not like what the reporter is reporting. The government or other private or public entity can't edit what the newspaper prints. But the newspaper (using it's own resources) can edit itself.

In the same way, Sskeli is free to say whatever he wishes provided he use his own resources (burning ATP to move his mouth or printing on his own messageboards). When he posted on TDG, he came under the authority of TDG moderators. The editors of this messageboard. As such, they can edit as they please on a messageboard that they run.

There has been no violation of First Amendment Rights. Case Dismissed.

Tiane
04-16-2004, 04:51 PM
Sskeli your post did indeed contain offensive language. If you have further issues with the moderation here you can communicate in pm's with one of the Administrators of the site, or you can move along. Further disruption will not be tolerated. Have a nice day.

Sskeli
04-16-2004, 06:49 PM
If what I said was offensive I'd be interested in hearing about your protests of sex education in schools.

Palarran
04-16-2004, 07:02 PM
Heh, out of curiosity I found the original text.
http://necro.eqclasses.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=26721
Confirms he's trolling and not a victim of overmoderation.

BogebogbudicusRZ
04-16-2004, 07:02 PM
/moderator starts to cast the AA ability spell "Ban"

Islington
04-16-2004, 07:34 PM
Yup, Necros have this innate, and desperate, need for attention. Ban him and don't look back.

Sskeli
04-16-2004, 07:40 PM
Banning of the troll = the ultimate win for the troll.

:ban:

Megadwen
04-16-2004, 07:47 PM
OH MY GOD, you said (censored), YOU ARE SO RIGHTEOUS SSKELI

but really, get a life other then trolling boards to impress people you'll never even meet on a forum.

Kerech
04-16-2004, 09:32 PM
Guys, let's keep the thread on track without the profanity and personal attacks... we don't need that here :)

Sskeli
04-16-2004, 11:51 PM
ROFELLOOLZ!!1

Sskeli 3
Druids 0

Kulothar
04-17-2004, 02:26 PM
LOL .. Silly Sskeli, such a lamer.

Like any propaganda minister you try to compensate for a lack of self esteam by selective reposting of others coments. You do not contribute anything constructive and take pieces out of context then claim a slight when you disrupt others. Like any propaganda minister you try to stir up discontent without adding anything to the issue. No informed or long time player that has any knowledge of the classes would consider giving you any creedance but have fun anyway. You do add humor value to the game by stiring up issues. Fortunately you may actually get us more updates since SoE pays more attention if more than one class brings up our issues.

As for your being oppressed. You post you are Canadian. Sorry but you are not covered under the First Amendment and Canada does not have a first amendment right to free speech so you can be arrested or prosecuted for what you post, Many of you fellow Canadian Clergy are finding this out as more of them are being prosecuted and fined for speaking or posting biblical passages. Do not tout a right you do not have has been violated.

Sskeli
04-17-2004, 05:35 PM
Do not tout a right you do not have has been violated.

What? Sorry, I only speak english.

Kulothar
04-17-2004, 07:13 PM
Sorry Sskeli,

Didn't realize you spoke a language other than english.

As a Canadian Citizen, you have no right to freedom of speech since you are not a citizen of a government that guarantees it. Therefore you cannot whine that your right has been violated. To quote the Canadian Divil Liberties Association "Canada is a pleasantly authoritarian country". My appologies if you cannot understand basic words but please refer that to your educational system. I have studied Constitutional Law and I am familiar with Canadian Anti-free-speech cases both historical and current. If you are going to complain about censorship please know your rights or become a citizen of the comunity that offers the rights you want.

You are neither a citizen of a society that protects free speech nor a druid. Why would you have the right to spew (sorry another 4 letter word you might not understand) your miss-quotes and faulty (and false) concepts on a group of others when they try to hold discussions about their own community.

I hope you enjoy this post so that you can butcher it and promagate more of your bitterness and hate among classes even though you do not know one of the classes.

Greystone
04-18-2004, 03:35 PM
1.) Making druid porting obsolete.. no good for raids, no good for travel.
Guess no one raids NToV anymore. CS is still highly used, also Natimbi i used nightly on KodTaz raids.

2.)Making druid healing inadequate for GoD
we're not clerics, we werent intended for main healers in every situation. Hell clerics are inadequate in GoD, trying doing named in Tipt with 1 cleric.

3.)Providing worthless druid oriented loot. "WE CAN'T USE THE DOT EFFECTS BECAUSE YOU ORIENTED THE GAME FOR RAIDS OR GROUPS! "
You must not solo or group for xp? I use dots all the time. Even on raids, i toss a couple dots on between heals just to add some DPS. Vengence of Tunare with damage+ and duration+ is a very nice spell.

4.)For Providing NO PoTime Druid only weapon.
Orb is Awesome, mages get a face item, necro's dont even get a class specific item. Hammer of Hours and Greatstaff of Power are AWESOME, + a mace in Ikkinz > Time loot. (great stats procs RUne3)

5.)For Having the worlds ****tiest pet, that does a ridiculously low amount of dps and cannot even take advantage of magician augments.
We aren't a pet class, deal.


6.) For giving any charmable animal ridiculously high magic resistance and a high chance to break charm so that it only lasts for 30sec.
Thats what glamour of tunare if for. All charm classes have same problem, seen chanters charm a mob 3 times in 60 seconds.


You're a druid, you are not suposed to be the best at anything, just a jack of all trades. I dont mean this to come out as bad as its going to, but if you are this pissed off about druid traetment make something else or quit EQ

Moonnie
04-19-2004, 05:02 AM
1.) Making druid porting obsolete.. no good for raids, no good for travel.
Guess no one raids NToV anymore. CS is still highly used, also Natimbi i used nightly on KodTaz raids.
Obsolete .. no they are still usefull for porting out of nasty places and generaly making live easier. They have become a lot less important since you can reach everyzone in 3 zones. (PoK -> GD -> PoM -> CS and PoK ->Gfay -> BB -> Natabi) Together with run 5 i do not think we can be seen as master of travel .. more "a little more advanced in travel then the average guy". I would like to see a race to ntov between a druid with SoE and port and a bard running with selo's trough GD and PoM. I am not so sure about the outcome.

I use dots all the time. Even on raids, i toss a couple dots on between heals just to add some DPS. Vengence of Tunare with damage+ and duration+ is a very nice spell.
Vengance of tunare is nice, other dots are not. In normal xp groups they just take to long to justify the mana. On raids i think i will get arguments if i would put a load of dots on a mob they have max 30 slots

2.)Making druid healing inadequate for GoD
we're not clerics, we werent intended for main healers in every situation. Hell clerics are inadequate in GoD, trying doing named in Tipt with 1 cleric.
See other tread

Agreed that we are not a pet class and boo boo is a toy, and i do not see we have more trouble charming then other classes.

Moonnie
04-19-2004, 05:08 AM
actualy i am not 100% sure if the PoM zone takes you to CS or WW .. someone knows ?

Islington
04-19-2004, 07:35 AM
actualy i am not 100% sure if the PoM zone takes you to CS or WW .. someone knows ?
Cobalt Scar, drops you in the middle of the ocean.

Chenier
04-19-2004, 03:38 PM
Isn't Banning just west of Palm Springs on the 10? Bad speed trap...

baody
04-22-2004, 03:16 PM
My comments

1) I like playing a druid. I think it's a fun class to play. The versatility of the class is really nice at guild events.

2) The biggest thing that I don't like about the class is the way my utility and power fluctuate from zone to zone.

3) Druids should not be complaining about their ability to charm things. The charm takes a long time to cast, that's what you have snare and root for. Creatures resist magic, that's why we have animal target magic resist debuffs. Yes, the bear pet is very weak, but we are one of the few classes that have dire charm.

My advise: If you don't like the class, go start a new one. It's not like it takes a long time to level up now.

Esanguiner
04-24-2004, 09:15 AM
ALL THE REST OF THE AA YOU GAVE US BLOW

Forgot to say, "I heard the rest of them blow because I don't even have secondary forte"

Well....unless you don't update your magelo.


I think your facts on just about everything you listed are skewed.

Malrik
04-27-2004, 06:20 PM
Dont get me wrong I love play'n my druid. When I try'd to start another class (sk, chanter, cleric, mage) I didnt have anywhere as much fun as I did with my druid.

I do have a question though
3) Druids should not be complaining about their ability to charm things. The charm takes a long time to cast, that's what you have snare and root for. Creatures resist magic, that's why we have animal target magic resist debuffs. Yes, the bear pet is very weak, but we are one of the few classes that have dire charm.

Hmm is that the same charm that SoE toss'd a +25 % MR check to nurf out charming ability? Is that Glamor the same GoT that I use that is a 20% MR debuff? So you are tell'n me that I have no right to bitch about SoE nurfing my charm by giving me an overall +5 to all mobs MR check that I attempt to charm?

If ya cant tell, Im still a bit upset at SoE nurf'n druid charm because of chanters.

EDIT to add: I never knew they changed the MR check back on CoT per Lucy:

01-14 02:25 Changed Resistadj from -25 to 0

So in that case ill take back what I said bout charm

Kytelae
05-02-2004, 05:46 PM
Isn't Banning just west of Palm Springs on the 10? Bad speed trap...

I spent a bad night in Banning once when I was hitchhiking to LA. Ah, youth! :flipbg:

Noliniel
05-04-2004, 12:36 AM
Isn't this the thread where we suppose to talk about donuts? Or is the other thread? I keep getting mess up between them :p

Sskeli
12-27-2004, 07:24 PM
BWAHAHAHA I STILL REIGN SUPREME!! LONG LIVE LONG DEAD THREADS!!















P.S. Druids suck!

Aluaeia
12-27-2004, 09:39 PM
Way to attention whore yourself there, you big winner.

Aidon
12-27-2004, 11:02 PM
lockdown.

Ban incoming!